00:00:02 <calamari> are there any portable mp3 players that are programmable?
00:00:35 <lament> but unofficially, yes.
00:00:43 <lament> the ipod is one i believe?
00:02:34 <{^Raven^}> the thing is to work out how to do it. The only non-reprogrammable ones are implemented in pure-hardware which is not common
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00:03:23 <{^Raven^}> calamari: I am going to point out to Dunric where the current rules can be abused
00:03:56 <calamari> cool.. I gave him the 2899 + 8192 example, but that didn't seem to phase him
00:04:16 <{^Raven^}> calamari: can I use/paraphrase/steal your suggested rules (with due credit)
00:04:33 <{^Raven^}> calamari: am not sure about it as it would probably be better for it to seem completely independant
00:04:39 <calamari> of course, and that'd be great too, because he'll be hearing the same thing again from someone new
00:05:18 <{^Raven^}> i am tempted to post it to as RFD to raif (rec.arts.int-fiction)
00:05:34 <calamari> you won last year, mention that ;)
00:06:33 <calamari> my wording can be improved.. I'm not the greatest writer, which kinda rules me out of serious IF, but this 2k stuff seems a bit different
00:06:46 <{^Raven^}> I am researching other 2Kb(ish) competitions to gather a common rule set
00:07:05 <lament> {^Raven^}: have you written any "normal" IF?
00:07:09 <{^Raven^}> My own writing can be pretty awful
00:08:05 <{^Raven^}> lament: yes, quite a lot, including games, game engines and IF development tools
00:09:04 <{^Raven^}> I used to be quite prolific in the late eighties and early ninties
00:09:19 <lament> that's before inform isnt it
00:10:30 <{^Raven^}> Before Graham Nelson's Inform became widely used. I think that the original Infocom ZCode engine predates my original game
00:11:00 <lament> second IF game ever was written in it
00:12:54 <calamari> the only text adventure I played of any length of time was called something like "leather goddesses of phobos". I don't remember what that title was about, and I never beat the game.. it was fun, though
00:13:55 <lament> big games are intimidating :(
00:14:24 <{^Raven^}> I'm not sure about that since Colossal Cave was 1972ish and ZCode was 1979
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00:15:13 <{^Raven^}> and Zork was originally written in MDL and released in 1977, but there has to be a wealth of IF in the intervening years
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00:59:17 <cpressey> having an 8K data file is really a lot of space. where's the challenge?
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01:01:45 <calamari> cpressey: choose not to use it :)
01:02:19 <calamari> I was going to, but it's true.. there is no challenge that way
01:04:10 <cpressey> well... i mean, there still can be a challenge, but it's mostly the same as any other IF competition - just design and implement a good game. 10K is plenty of space to do that in, if you're any good at writing small code.
01:04:28 <{^Raven^}> cpressey: I am going to try to make the biggest and best game I can
01:04:30 <cpressey> i guess the thing is, i'm running out of ideas, before i've run out of space. heh
01:05:54 <{^Raven^}> A good programmer can do a lot in less than 2,899 bytes of code
01:06:11 <{^Raven^}> (Several complete operating systems were 2k or less)
01:06:42 <calamari> came across this page, it's quite interesting: http://www.costik.com/nowords.html
01:07:26 <{^Raven^}> calamari: That title is so Harlan Elison
01:07:33 <calamari> raven: generally those are they types of operating systems where you have to look up "error 231" in a separate manual :)
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01:10:06 <{^Raven^}> Harlan Ellison is an author of Science Fiction.
01:11:28 <{^Raven^}> The title of the Costik page refers to his short-story "I Have No Mouth And I Must Scream"
01:12:05 <lament> he refers to IF as "interactive fantasy"
01:12:30 <lament> calamari: there're much better articles on IF game design.
01:13:32 <calamari> lament: cool.. I just came across this one.. it was really a sidenote as it seems to concentrate on other types of games more than IF.. I think he brings up some good points about what can make a game fun (or prevent it from being so)
01:13:35 <lament> for example this: http://www.inform-fiction.org/manual/html/ch8.html
01:13:40 <lament> if you have a few weeks to read it :)
01:14:07 <{^Raven^}> The IFWiki has a lot of useful information http://www.ifwiki.org/index.php/Main_Page
01:14:56 <calamari> raven: so you're going for the whole 10k, then?
01:15:33 <{^Raven^}> calamari: It would be too easy for me to knock-up another game based on my original engine
01:16:32 <{^Raven^}> calamari: I am going for the full 10k because I want to see how far I can take the concept
01:18:21 <{^Raven^}> calamari: For me I feel that I have explored the 2k limit to my own logical ends,
01:19:01 <{^Raven^}> calamari: The 10k limit presents a really difficult challenge to overcome with what I am planning
01:28:35 <calamari> btw, here is what I got the 2nd time around: The adventure game source file can be anywhere from 1 to 2.8k. It's still a 1-2k contest, in that entries (source code, anyway) will usually be 1-2k in size. The extra data file allowed (consisting of 8,192 bytes) makes 2k games playable to a larger extent, and in essence makes the games entered adventure game drivers, a la Scott Adams.
01:29:07 <calamari> whatever scott adams is.. you'd probably know :)
01:31:05 <{^Raven^}> lament: Have we met on r*if? I am sure that I know you from elsewhere.
01:31:59 <cpressey> i would hazard to guess that if the limit is 2.8k, most entries would be, well, 2.8k in size :)
01:32:31 <{^Raven^}> cpressey: 2.83Kb is still 2Kb (if you're rounding down), but last year several entries were under 1Kb
01:33:43 <cpressey> yes... but two of those entries seemed more like jokes than serious entries to me
01:35:36 <cpressey> the thing is, i don't know what will score higher in the judging - good (i.e. playable) game or small game.
01:36:05 <{^Raven^}> that is what concerns me most is that there was only one reviewer and judge last year
01:37:00 <{^Raven^}> calamari: I think that it will be the same this year
01:37:17 <calamari> aha, another response: VIC-20 text adventures used to require at least 3K of RAM expansion, and sometimes 8K. Some text adventures were written that barely fit into the 3,584 bytes of RAM afforded by an unexpanded VIC, but they were barely playable. That is why a "playable" text adventure needs at least 8K of data.
01:39:15 <cpressey> i'll just write something i like
01:40:36 <{^Raven^}> cpressey: I have only ever written for myself, I don't believe that there is any other honest ay work
01:41:21 <lament> {^Raven^}: perhaps we have
01:41:32 <lament> although i haven't written any
01:42:38 <lament> the only thing i ever did for IF was some sort of language that compiled to Scott Adams' platform
01:42:46 <lament> and i never even released that
01:44:02 <calamari> aha, http://www.ifwiki.org/index.php/Scott_Adams
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19:06:46 <jix> moin calamari
19:15:39 <calamari> quite a few people are making games now, or at least planning to :)
19:17:54 <{^Raven^}> calamari: I finally figured out the syntax of the BFBASIC BF command :)
19:18:06 <calamari> haha.. not much syntax there to be found ;)
19:18:39 <calamari> what did you need it for? needing that is generally a bad sign
19:18:59 <{^Raven^}> i dunno, it's nice writing otherwise pure brainfuck with just a few @myvar's scattered in
19:19:37 <{^Raven^}> looking at it for code optimisation mainly
19:19:42 <calamari> oh, yeah.. didn't think of that!
19:20:38 <{^Raven^}> instead of myvar=2 using BF @myvar[-]++
19:20:41 <calamari> although I'm pretty sure I came up with the @ syntax, but who knows, my memory could be going
19:21:00 <calamari> yeah.. it makes it a lot easier to see what is going on
19:21:03 <{^Raven^}> i like that the BF statement doesn't have any pre/post code around it
19:21:46 <{^Raven^}> are array elements supposed to be 2 cells wide?
19:21:49 <calamari> of course.. then it wouldn't be raw. Although, it might have post code before it
19:22:21 <calamari> one is used for data, the other for movement
19:22:56 <{^Raven^}> ahh, i;'m not sure if it's me but BF @array(1)[-]@array(2) generates (>>>etc)[-]>[-]
19:23:18 <calamari> there are 3 cells leading the array as well
19:23:37 <calamari> x b a (or x a b), can't remember
19:24:32 <calamari> I think I documented it somewhat on the wiki
19:26:28 <calamari> iirc, the way it works is: 1) movement cells start off as 0's. 2) take element index we want to find, do [>>] which gives us an empty movement cell, increment it, do [<<] to get back, decrement the index, repeat until index =0.. so now the movement cells are populated with 1's, and we can do something like [>>]< or [>>]> to get to the data cell
19:27:01 <calamari> 3) transwer the data with a simple add loop, using [>>] and [<<] instead of > <..
19:27:22 <calamari> of course there are all the fine details that go along with getting it right, but that's the basic idea of how it works
19:28:01 <calamari> I'd check the 0 cell, 1 cell, and max cell, max-1, max+1
19:28:19 <calamari> just to make sure everything is working as expected
19:28:35 <calamari> it's likely that one of those is where the bug is
19:29:08 * calamari has been having fun researching his game
19:29:15 <{^Raven^}> yeah, I am getting the impression that arrays are not always contigous
19:29:35 <{^Raven^}> i will play with using BF to simplify tracking
19:29:44 <calamari> it's possible that a movement cell is not getting cleared out and it's going off to lala land
19:30:27 <calamari> I have my bit debugger pretty close to done.. I should do a bf version, since I like the interface
19:30:57 <calamari> that would make this sort of thing a LOT easier to debug, than trying to do it by hand
19:34:04 <calamari> I'd be done with the bit debigger already, but I ran into a problem the other day.. if the program was running, I couldn't stop it, because it was using the same thread as Swing. I could use multiple threads, but I lose a bit of control, and can't do certain things. But, the other night I realized that I could just use step, and a special runnign flag, so the view knows when the model is done running.
19:34:29 <calamari> That way it's all in one thread, and it'll be cool because you'd see the highlighted instruction moving as it ran
19:34:56 <calamari> It also makes possible the Pass button (for running iuntil a loop is done)
19:35:14 <calamari> so anyhow, yeah.. it is almost done, just got caught up in this adventure game stuff :)
19:35:27 <calamari> I need to get to other work tho.. so afk
19:55:34 * {^Raven^} is playing with a version of BFBSAIC that doesn't expand @var's into arrows
19:56:39 * calamari is doing dishonest programming.. or whatever it was you called it the other day :)
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23:05:45 <jix> Keymaker: me is here
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23:45:12 <Keymaker> i was just writing a question for tokigun
23:45:23 <Keymaker> well, anyways, maybe someone other knows..
23:45:48 <Keymaker> so, does a whirl program start from the beginning again if there is no 'terminate program' instruction?
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