00:00:02 are there any portable mp3 players that are programmable? 00:00:20 yes 00:00:22 well 00:00:30 not officially 00:00:35 but unofficially, yes. 00:00:43 the ipod is one i believe? 00:00:47 iriver also 00:01:28 <{^Raven^}> ipod is definately programmable 00:02:34 <{^Raven^}> the thing is to work out how to do it. The only non-reprogrammable ones are implemented in pure-hardware which is not common 00:03:20 -!- heatsink has joined. 00:03:23 <{^Raven^}> calamari: I am going to point out to Dunric where the current rules can be abused 00:03:56 cool.. I gave him the 2899 + 8192 example, but that didn't seem to phase him 00:04:16 <{^Raven^}> calamari: can I use/paraphrase/steal your suggested rules (with due credit) 00:04:33 <{^Raven^}> calamari: am not sure about it as it would probably be better for it to seem completely independant 00:04:39 of course, and that'd be great too, because he'll be hearing the same thing again from someone new 00:05:18 <{^Raven^}> i am tempted to post it to as RFD to raif (rec.arts.int-fiction) 00:05:34 you won last year, mention that ;) 00:05:53 <{^Raven^}> :D 00:06:16 <{^Raven^}> That's a good idea 00:06:33 my wording can be improved.. I'm not the greatest writer, which kinda rules me out of serious IF, but this 2k stuff seems a bit different 00:06:46 <{^Raven^}> I am researching other 2Kb(ish) competitions to gather a common rule set 00:07:05 {^Raven^}: have you written any "normal" IF? 00:07:09 <{^Raven^}> My own writing can be pretty awful 00:08:05 <{^Raven^}> lament: yes, quite a lot, including games, game engines and IF development tools 00:09:04 <{^Raven^}> I used to be quite prolific in the late eighties and early ninties 00:09:08 wow 00:09:14 late eighties! 00:09:19 that's before inform isnt it 00:10:30 <{^Raven^}> Before Graham Nelson's Inform became widely used. I think that the original Infocom ZCode engine predates my original game 00:10:46 uhhhh 00:10:47 haha 00:10:50 of course it does 00:11:00 second IF game ever was written in it 00:12:54 the only text adventure I played of any length of time was called something like "leather goddesses of phobos". I don't remember what that title was about, and I never beat the game.. it was fun, though 00:13:21 that game is hard 00:13:45 it was big, I liked that 00:13:55 big games are intimidating :( 00:14:24 <{^Raven^}> I'm not sure about that since Colossal Cave was 1972ish and ZCode was 1979 00:14:44 well, real life beckons.. bbl 00:14:52 -!- calamari has quit ("<=K"). 00:15:13 <{^Raven^}> and Zork was originally written in MDL and released in 1977, but there has to be a wealth of IF in the intervening years 00:26:29 -!- calamari has joined. 00:26:37 yay, escaped back to eso and 00:26:45 land even 00:58:41 ehm, .... ok 00:58:43 i'm undecided now 00:59:17 having an 8K data file is really a lot of space. where's the challenge? 00:59:46 -!- tokigun has quit ("Chatzilla 0.9.68.5 [Firefox 1.0.3/20050414]"). 01:01:45 cpressey: choose not to use it :) 01:02:19 I was going to, but it's true.. there is no challenge that way 01:04:10 well... i mean, there still can be a challenge, but it's mostly the same as any other IF competition - just design and implement a good game. 10K is plenty of space to do that in, if you're any good at writing small code. 01:04:28 <{^Raven^}> cpressey: I am going to try to make the biggest and best game I can 01:04:30 i guess the thing is, i'm running out of ideas, before i've run out of space. heh 01:04:49 chris: i hear that :) 01:05:54 <{^Raven^}> A good programmer can do a lot in less than 2,899 bytes of code 01:06:11 <{^Raven^}> (Several complete operating systems were 2k or less) 01:06:42 came across this page, it's quite interesting: http://www.costik.com/nowords.html 01:07:26 <{^Raven^}> calamari: That title is so Harlan Elison 01:07:33 raven: generally those are they types of operating systems where you have to look up "error 231" in a separate manual :) 01:07:58 raven: who is that? 01:08:30 -!- KarlMarx has left (?). 01:10:06 <{^Raven^}> Harlan Ellison is an author of Science Fiction. 01:10:15 <{^Raven^}> (very good SF) 01:11:28 <{^Raven^}> The title of the Costik page refers to his short-story "I Have No Mouth And I Must Scream" 01:11:54 wtf 01:12:05 he refers to IF as "interactive fantasy" 01:12:30 calamari: there're much better articles on IF game design. 01:13:32 lament: cool.. I just came across this one.. it was really a sidenote as it seems to concentrate on other types of games more than IF.. I think he brings up some good points about what can make a game fun (or prevent it from being so) 01:13:35 for example this: http://www.inform-fiction.org/manual/html/ch8.html 01:13:40 if you have a few weeks to read it :) 01:14:07 <{^Raven^}> The IFWiki has a lot of useful information http://www.ifwiki.org/index.php/Main_Page 01:14:56 raven: so you're going for the whole 10k, then? 01:15:33 <{^Raven^}> calamari: It would be too easy for me to knock-up another game based on my original engine 01:16:32 <{^Raven^}> calamari: I am going for the full 10k because I want to see how far I can take the concept 01:18:21 <{^Raven^}> calamari: For me I feel that I have explored the 2k limit to my own logical ends, 01:19:01 <{^Raven^}> calamari: The 10k limit presents a really difficult challenge to overcome with what I am planning 01:28:35 btw, here is what I got the 2nd time around: The adventure game source file can be anywhere from 1 to 2.8k. It's still a 1-2k contest, in that entries (source code, anyway) will usually be 1-2k in size. The extra data file allowed (consisting of 8,192 bytes) makes 2k games playable to a larger extent, and in essence makes the games entered adventure game drivers, a la Scott Adams. 01:29:07 whatever scott adams is.. you'd probably know :) 01:31:05 <{^Raven^}> lament: Have we met on r*if? I am sure that I know you from elsewhere. 01:31:36 "usually be 1-2k in size" ??? 01:31:59 i would hazard to guess that if the limit is 2.8k, most entries would be, well, 2.8k in size :) 01:32:31 <{^Raven^}> cpressey: 2.83Kb is still 2Kb (if you're rounding down), but last year several entries were under 1Kb 01:33:43 yes... but two of those entries seemed more like jokes than serious entries to me 01:35:36 the thing is, i don't know what will score higher in the judging - good (i.e. playable) game or small game. 01:35:50 seems to me: good game 01:36:05 <{^Raven^}> that is what concerns me most is that there was only one reviewer and judge last year 01:36:07 (from last year, anyways) 01:37:00 <{^Raven^}> calamari: I think that it will be the same this year 01:37:17 aha, another response: VIC-20 text adventures used to require at least 3K of RAM expansion, and sometimes 8K. Some text adventures were written that barely fit into the 3,584 bytes of RAM afforded by an unexpanded VIC, but they were barely playable. That is why a "playable" text adventure needs at least 8K of data. 01:39:08 * cpressey shrugs 01:39:15 i'll just write something i like 01:39:21 yeah, sounds good 01:40:36 <{^Raven^}> cpressey: I have only ever written for myself, I don't believe that there is any other honest ay work 01:40:52 <{^Raven^}> *way to write 01:40:59 raven: for work 01:41:21 {^Raven^}: perhaps we have 01:41:32 although i haven't written any 01:42:38 the only thing i ever did for IF was some sort of language that compiled to Scott Adams' platform 01:42:46 and i never even released that 01:44:02 aha, http://www.ifwiki.org/index.php/Scott_Adams 01:44:05 :) 02:22:30 -!- heatsink has quit ("Leaving"). 02:29:22 * {^Raven^} if off to bed (to watch Highlander) 02:31:46 <{^Raven^}> goodnite peeps 02:58:08 -!- graue has left (?). 04:14:42 -!- watermellonz has joined. 04:14:54 -!- watermellonz has left (?). 04:22:50 -!- calamari has quit (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)). 05:09:53 -!- malaprop has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 05:09:57 -!- lindi- has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 05:09:57 -!- puzzlet has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 05:09:57 -!- fizzie has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 05:09:57 -!- deltab has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 05:09:57 -!- ChanServ has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 05:09:58 -!- cpressey has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 05:10:01 -!- {^Raven^} has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 05:10:02 -!- CXI has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 05:10:02 -!- pgimeno has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 05:10:02 -!- cmeme has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 05:10:02 -!- mtve has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 05:10:04 -!- ZeroOne has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 05:12:29 -!- ChanServ has joined. 05:12:29 -!- CXI has joined. 05:12:29 -!- malaprop has joined. 05:12:29 -!- pgimeno has joined. 05:12:29 -!- lindi- has joined. 05:12:29 -!- cpressey has joined. 05:12:29 -!- puzzlet has joined. 05:12:29 -!- fizzie has joined. 05:12:29 -!- deltab has joined. 05:12:29 -!- {^Raven^} has joined. 05:12:29 -!- cmeme has joined. 05:12:29 -!- ZeroOne has joined. 05:12:29 -!- mtve has joined. 05:12:29 -!- irc.freenode.net has set channel mode: +o ChanServ. 05:20:31 -!- malaprop has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 05:20:36 -!- puzzlet has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 05:20:36 -!- lindi- has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 05:20:36 -!- fizzie has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 05:20:36 -!- deltab has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 05:20:36 -!- ChanServ has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 05:20:37 -!- cpressey has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 05:20:38 -!- {^Raven^} has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 05:20:40 -!- pgimeno has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 05:20:40 -!- mtve has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 05:20:40 -!- cmeme has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 05:20:40 -!- ZeroOne has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 05:20:40 -!- CXI has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 05:22:04 -!- ChanServ has joined. 05:22:04 -!- CXI has joined. 05:22:04 -!- malaprop has joined. 05:22:04 -!- pgimeno has joined. 05:22:04 -!- lindi- has joined. 05:22:04 -!- cpressey has joined. 05:22:04 -!- mtve has joined. 05:22:04 -!- ZeroOne has joined. 05:22:04 -!- cmeme has joined. 05:22:04 -!- {^Raven^} has joined. 05:22:04 -!- deltab has joined. 05:22:04 -!- fizzie has joined. 05:22:04 -!- puzzlet has joined. 05:22:04 -!- irc.freenode.net has set channel mode: +o ChanServ. 05:23:10 -!- malaprop has quit ("sleep"). 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 10:30:32 -!- jix has joined. 12:09:12 -!- tokigun has joined. 12:27:18 -!- J|x has joined. 12:27:52 -!- jix has quit (Nick collision from services.). 12:27:54 -!- J|x has changed nick to jix. 14:18:26 -!- tokigun has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 14:21:04 -!- tokigun has joined. 19:01:25 -!- calamari has joined. 19:01:30 hi 19:06:46 moin calamari 19:15:18 hi jix, how's it going? 19:15:39 quite a few people are making games now, or at least planning to :) 19:16:24 <{^Raven^}> hi 19:16:34 hi raven 19:17:54 <{^Raven^}> calamari: I finally figured out the syntax of the BFBASIC BF command :) 19:18:06 haha.. not much syntax there to be found ;) 19:18:39 what did you need it for? needing that is generally a bad sign 19:18:59 <{^Raven^}> i dunno, it's nice writing otherwise pure brainfuck with just a few @myvar's scattered in 19:19:37 <{^Raven^}> looking at it for code optimisation mainly 19:19:42 oh, yeah.. didn't think of that! 19:20:38 <{^Raven^}> instead of myvar=2 using BF @myvar[-]++ 19:20:41 although I'm pretty sure I came up with the @ syntax, but who knows, my memory could be going 19:21:00 yeah.. it makes it a lot easier to see what is going on 19:21:03 <{^Raven^}> i like that the BF statement doesn't have any pre/post code around it 19:21:46 <{^Raven^}> are array elements supposed to be 2 cells wide? 19:21:49 of course.. then it wouldn't be raw. Although, it might have post code before it 19:21:56 yeah, 2 elements 19:22:07 cells, whatever :) 19:22:21 one is used for data, the other for movement 19:22:56 <{^Raven^}> ahh, i;'m not sure if it's me but BF @array(1)[-]@array(2) generates (>>>etc)[-]>[-] 19:23:11 <{^Raven^}> instead of (>>>etc)[-]>>[-] 19:23:18 there are 3 cells leading the array as well 19:23:37 x b a (or x a b), can't remember 19:24:32 I think I documented it somewhat on the wiki 19:26:28 iirc, the way it works is: 1) movement cells start off as 0's. 2) take element index we want to find, do [>>] which gives us an empty movement cell, increment it, do [<<] to get back, decrement the index, repeat until index =0.. so now the movement cells are populated with 1's, and we can do something like [>>]< or [>>]> to get to the data cell 19:27:01 3) transwer the data with a simple add loop, using [>>] and [<<] instead of > <.. 19:27:04 <{^Raven^}> do arrays have a zeroth cell? 19:27:22 of course there are all the fine details that go along with getting it right, but that's the basic idea of how it works 19:27:24 yeah 19:28:01 I'd check the 0 cell, 1 cell, and max cell, max-1, max+1 19:28:09 err cell -> element 19:28:19 just to make sure everything is working as expected 19:28:35 it's likely that one of those is where the bug is 19:29:08 * calamari has been having fun researching his game 19:29:15 <{^Raven^}> yeah, I am getting the impression that arrays are not always contigous 19:29:35 <{^Raven^}> i will play with using BF to simplify tracking 19:29:44 it's possible that a movement cell is not getting cleared out and it's going off to lala land 19:30:27 I have my bit debugger pretty close to done.. I should do a bf version, since I like the interface 19:30:57 that would make this sort of thing a LOT easier to debug, than trying to do it by hand 19:34:04 I'd be done with the bit debigger already, but I ran into a problem the other day.. if the program was running, I couldn't stop it, because it was using the same thread as Swing. I could use multiple threads, but I lose a bit of control, and can't do certain things. But, the other night I realized that I could just use step, and a special runnign flag, so the view knows when the model is done running. 19:34:29 That way it's all in one thread, and it'll be cool because you'd see the highlighted instruction moving as it ran 19:34:56 It also makes possible the Pass button (for running iuntil a loop is done) 19:35:14 so anyhow, yeah.. it is almost done, just got caught up in this adventure game stuff :) 19:35:27 I need to get to other work tho.. so afk 19:37:03 <{^Raven^}> have fun 19:55:34 * {^Raven^} is playing with a version of BFBSAIC that doesn't expand @var's into arrows 19:56:39 * calamari is doing dishonest programming.. or whatever it was you called it the other day :) 21:18:37 -!- calamari has quit ("bbl"). 22:14:12 -!- J|x has joined. 22:26:18 -!- jix has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 22:49:21 -!- Keymaker has joined. 22:49:32 'ello 22:59:40 are anybody here? 23:00:54 -!- ChanServ has quit (Shutting Down). 23:01:20 -!- ChanServ has joined. 23:01:20 -!- irc.freenode.net has set channel mode: +o ChanServ. 23:05:34 -!- J|x has changed nick to jix. 23:05:45 Keymaker: me is here 23:08:10 me sees now 23:16:17 * {^Raven^} is vauguely around 23:24:01 :) 23:44:59 -!- tokigun has quit ("Chatzilla 0.9.68.5 [Firefox 1.0.3/20050414]"). 23:45:05 d'oh!!!!!! 23:45:12 i was just writing a question for tokigun 23:45:23 well, anyways, maybe someone other knows.. 23:45:48 so, does a whirl program start from the beginning again if there is no 'terminate program' instruction? 23:51:01 -!- Keymaker has quit ("I've seen this d�j� vu before..").