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03:23:40 <BigZaphod> echo is pretty easy in taxi: Go to the Post Office: west 1st left, 1st right, 1st left. Pickup a passenger going to the Post Office. Go to Tom's Trims: north. Go to the Post Office: south. Go to the Taxi Garage: north 1st right, 1st left, 1st right.
03:24:05 <graue> there's an esolang called taxi?
04:39:15 <GregorR> That is the greatest thing I have ever seen XD
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04:57:25 <GregorR> I've made an installer system, and now I'm making a packaging system.
04:57:41 <GregorR> For totally different audiences, but, how can I be so obsessed with installation of packages? Oy.
05:09:13 <graue> I am going to sleep good night
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07:03:37 <cpressey> for my own part i have produced this today: http://catseye.webhop.net/projects/alpaca/eg/braktif/src/braktif.alp
07:04:01 <cpressey> Smallfuck/Brainfuck F-as-a-cellular-automaton
07:18:32 <calamari> is life the simplest turing complete automaton ?
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08:35:43 <cpressey> calamari: i can't think of a simpler one :)
08:37:01 <calamari> life is 3x3, right? I wonder if there can be a 2x2
08:38:14 <pgimeno> am I the only one who thinks that Wireworld is simpler than Life?
08:38:33 <pgimeno> not in number of states but anyway
08:39:38 <pgimeno> cpressey: just curious, does the sketch of proof by Minsky use encoded counters as a single integer?
08:40:10 <pgimeno> (re discussion in Talk:Befunge)
08:50:47 <pgimeno> cpressey: nice work the cellular automaton; I still have to figure out how it works though
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09:24:57 <lament> wireworld makes a lot more sense than Life
09:28:05 <lament> mathworld never actually explains in what sense is the rule 110 automaton "universal".
10:00:28 <mtve> there is also KS-lambda UTM, which has three elements (two bits) like ` is 1, K is 00 and S is 01.
10:01:33 <mtve> http://homepages.cwi.nl/~tromp/cl/cl.html
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18:08:44 <cpressey> pgimeno: yes, he uses prime factorization encoding at various points...
18:14:27 <cpressey> lament: sorry. i assumed calamari was talking about 2d cellular automata...
18:25:27 <cpressey> pgimeno: yeah, i checked - he mentions a 3-register machine and a 5-register machine... he emulates the 3-register machine in a 2-register subtract/jump machine by encoding the 3 registers into one (2^a*3^m*5^n) and using the other as scratch. he then argues that the 5-register machine can be simulated on a 1-register multiply/conditional-divide machine with all five encoded as (2^a*3^b*5^c*7^d*11^e)
18:33:06 <cpressey> of course, in befunge, you can make life easier by storing the data in one register and the program in the other... and you can use a less pathological encoding for the program (e.g. 8 bits per symbol)
18:41:30 <cpressey> lament: actually they do, on http://mathworld.wolfram.com/UniversalCellularAutomaton.html and http://mathworld.wolfram.com/Universality.html
18:42:16 <cpressey> i agree they don't do a good job, though... they neglect to mention any other meanings of universality (e.g. construction-universal)
18:48:33 <lament> cpressey: i don't get those pages
18:49:02 <lament> they say rule 110 can emulate the other automatons
18:49:20 <lament> that's obviously not universality in the Turing sense
18:51:21 <cpressey> "Universal systems are effectively capable of emulating any other system." ?
19:00:30 <cpressey> i suppose if you can avoid the parts of mathworld that sound like free advertising for NKS, it's not _that_ bad...
19:01:31 <lament> i just wish they gave me a free copy of Mathematica
19:03:07 <lindi-> lament: have you used maxima?
19:04:31 <lament> why give me access to Lisp
19:04:33 <lament> i don't want your lisp
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19:06:47 <cpressey> lindi-: NKS = "A New Kind of Science", wolfram's (monstrous) book
19:06:50 <lindi-> lament: you can do a lot with maxima without even knowing it's written in lisp
19:07:25 <lindi-> lament: that especially applies to wxmaxima, try it, you'll be surprised ;)
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20:38:31 <calamari> yay, help system implemented.. how I just need to write up the html for it :)
20:39:21 <jimbo00000> Hey all, does anyone still have any interest in Befunge93?
20:43:57 <calamari> I haven't really studied befunge much.. I didn't learn of it until after bf, and so I got hooked on the tarpit idea :)
20:45:13 <jimbo00000> well i just made this real neat befunge interpreter in flash (http://jimbomania.com/code/flunger.html), only to find most of the links and mailing lists dead
20:47:00 <calamari> I need to figure out why flash doesn't work.. very annoying
20:47:24 <calamari> I like flash programs.. always look very smooth
20:48:44 <jimbo00000> yea, totally - get that plugin running. the pc leaves behind alpha scaled trails over the code space
20:51:01 <jix> jimbo00000: wow the interpreter is cool
20:52:22 <jix> but the trail is too short in the random-song example
20:52:37 <jimbo00000> hey, thank you very much! you can adjust the trail length with the slider in the lower left
20:52:56 <jimbo00000> up to 100 spaces back - gotta click the handle again if youre restarting
20:53:12 <jix> yes its on 100 but the trail is only 1 char long
20:53:27 <jix> or 2..3 but not 100
20:54:44 <jimbo00000> hmmmm that does not seem correct... this is a brand new thing so bugs may abound
20:54:59 <jix> can you reproduce the bug?
20:55:09 <jimbo00000> maybe try kicking that widget once or twice - no, im getting 100 tyrails over here
20:55:28 <jimbo00000> sometime what happens is flash doesnt register the end of the drag event if you release outside of the movieclip
20:55:31 <jix> a reload did it
20:56:33 <jimbo00000> i'm not 100% sure the g and p instructions work perfectly - does anyone perchance have any diagnostic programs to test it?
20:56:54 <jimbo00000> or maybe some idea on how to write a good one...
21:00:40 <calamari> hmm, I get just a black screen .. is that normal?
21:03:18 <jimbo00000> no, what you should see is a 80x25 textfield labeled "Funge Space"
21:03:37 <jimbo00000> and a stack, and a gray frame that says "Welcome to Flunger"
21:03:49 <calamari> weird... this page worked, so I assume Flash is okay http://www.jengajam.com/r/ultimate-pong
21:04:08 <jix> jimbo00000: hey.. why not write an interactive flash interpreter for: http://esolangs.org/wiki/YABALL
21:05:33 <jimbo00000> oooo kinky - i had thought of making a SNUSP mode too
21:05:47 <jimbo00000> shouldn't be so hard given the existing graphical framework
21:06:06 <jix> but SNUSP isn't written by myself
21:07:38 <jix> Why H and not Harder?
21:07:52 <calamari> jimbo00000: I'm on linux so that's probably what's wrong
21:08:04 <calamari> maybe linux flash it out of date
21:08:32 <jimbo00000> calamari: i compiled it for flash player 7
21:08:58 <jimbo00000> jix: i dunno. what was your inspiration for the language?
21:09:54 <lindi-> calamari: argh. flash is even worse than java at the moment ;)
21:10:01 <calamari> jimbo: do you know of a website with a flash program that prints the flash version number?
21:11:37 <jix> jimbo00000: in Brainfuck [] can be nested.. so one needs "complex" parsing or counting the ] and [s for loops.. i wanted to avoid that
21:13:43 <jimbo00000> so the memory model is like Brainfuck's? a 1D array?
21:14:23 <jix> just the code flow is different
21:14:53 <calamari> jix: I currently know of 3 ways to deal with [], I
21:15:35 <jix> 1: at a ] go back and for every ] count++ for every ] count-- stop at count == 0 start with count=1
21:15:40 <calamari> 1) stack, 2) search for matching [] 3) convert [] to jumps before execution
21:16:06 <jix> 2: do the same thing once for all loops and store them as linked list or whatever
21:16:07 <calamari> 3 is the fastest that I know of.. no stack needed :)
21:16:18 <jix> my nr. 2 is your nr. 3
21:17:18 <jimbo00000> I was thinking of making a button to toggle blocking on input in the interpreter - anyone think that would be practical?
21:17:29 <jimbo00000> what is the procedure if there no input waiting - just push 0?
21:18:02 <jix> push 0 or don't push at all
21:18:20 <jix> i think don't push at all is more flexible
21:18:21 <calamari> jimbo: I don't think I can use the interpreter correctly yet.. the A-Z program just goes around the first row over and over :)
21:19:23 <jimbo00000> Hmmm yea, thats not right. You know, I haven't tested this in linux yet.
21:19:45 <jix> on mac os x it works.. but sometimes there is this trail bug
21:21:01 <calamari> trails seem fine.. 50% looks pretty good
21:21:22 <jix> jimbo00000: are you going to release the source code?
21:21:48 <cpressey> jimbo00000: re befunge-93 example programs to test with: http://catseye.webhop.net/projects/befunge93/eg/
21:23:02 <calamari> I assume the v instruction means go down
21:23:04 <jimbo00000> jix: yea, sure. least i could do - thanks for the awesome languages!
21:23:13 <calamari> I guess that's what's not happening :)
21:23:30 <jimbo00000> all the source is in flash actionscript, very similar to javascript and c
21:28:41 <jimbo00000> cpressey: Thanks for the funges! what happened a couple of months ago, i thought your site went down for good?
21:30:37 <cpressey> jimbo00000: it moved to the current address about 2 years ago
21:32:01 <cpressey> there's also a strange error with the webserver<->subversion thing that i haven't been able to track down, so it's not been the most reliable in the past months
21:32:30 <cpressey> but now i'm restarting the webserver nightly, so it should be "OK"
21:36:09 <cpressey> jimbo00000: btw, thanks for making the interpreter... unfortunately i have no way to test it until i get near a machine that i can use flash on :(
21:43:49 <jimbo00000> Does anyone here ever mess with choon?
21:44:21 <jimbo00000> do anything cool with it? i just found that page today
21:44:49 <pgimeno> http://www.99-bottles-of-beer.net/language-choon-750.html
21:50:14 <jimbo00000> would it be possible to port the interpreter and the wav converter to php, for the integrated web choon experience?
21:59:34 <mtve> jimbo00000: excuse me, what should i do after entering execution mode?
22:00:05 <mtve> oh, i got it, i got it.
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22:06:45 <mtve> jimbo00000: it appears 'p' won't hold values with ascii value less than 32, isn't it?
22:07:54 <mtve> it replaces them with symbol "?" (ascii 63).
22:08:31 <jimbo00000> mtve: that sounds correct, yes, and the upper limit is ASCII 126
22:08:49 <jimbo00000> is this correct behavior? i think i saw that javascript funge interpreter do it
22:09:37 <mtve> i doubt it. at least few known programs expect values to be kept intact.
22:10:41 <jimbo00000> hmmm so i should just dump the value there, even if it is unprintable?
22:11:27 <jimbo00000> I'll have to find some hackaround for that, as flash will most likely balk at the unprintables
22:14:43 <jimbo00000> has anyone ever tried to mate choon with funge?
22:14:44 <mtve> yep. it wasn't explicitly told in the spec, but it would be good. and yes, interpreter is very nice.
22:16:01 <jimbo00000> I just had a wild idea - concurrent pcs in a 2d space executing choon, making chords possible
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22:20:32 <pgimeno> actually choon is not the kind of language I feel comfortable with
22:22:13 <jimbo00000> I am most attracted to the musical aspect of choon, more so than its syntax
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22:30:36 <pgimeno> I've been looking for an UTM program with two symbols but have been totally unsuccessful. A book by Roger Penrose has a description. Does anyone know of a TM program implementing an UTM?
22:34:21 <cpressey> pgimeno: yes, there are a few in the Minsky book. (it's actually a really nice book, i wish i'd found it a lot earlier...)
22:34:23 <pgimeno> (I have the book, The Emperor's New Mind, but have lent it to someone I might not see again)
22:34:42 <pgimeno> what's the name of the book?
22:34:51 <cpressey> Computation: Finite and Infinite Machines
22:35:10 <pgimeno> the name sounds pretty attractive
22:35:20 <cpressey> i can scan or type in one of the UTM state diagrams if you can't find it
22:35:26 <pgimeno> Minsky's design is... 46 or so states long, right?
22:35:52 <cpressey> :) he was a tarpit fan too.... he has a 4 state x 7 symbol UTM
22:35:56 <pgimeno> (IIRC, for what I have seen googling)
22:36:33 <cpressey> sorry, that's 4 symbols, 7 states
22:36:41 <pgimeno> yeah, the Wikipedia article (or was it the Wolfram one?) has the records
22:36:53 <pgimeno> there's a 2-state one in 18 symbols IIRC
22:38:05 <pgimeno> I've been googling for a while and seen all that
22:38:23 <pgimeno> but I've found no description of a TM program
22:38:58 <cpressey> hrm, so you want one that is 2 symbols, explicitly?
22:39:16 <pgimeno> yeah, for the extended Befunge-93 proof :)
22:40:49 <pgimeno> my idea is to use the two counters as two bit stacks as in part 1 of the counter article
22:40:52 <cpressey> there's one that never erases a symbol once written...
22:41:29 <cpressey> blank and 1, and blank -> 1 but 1 never -> blank
22:41:35 <pgimeno> reminds me a lot of smith :)
22:42:15 <cpressey> anyway, for the b93 proof... if i were to try it i'd probably do the multiply/conditional-divide model, since Befunge has those instructions
22:42:34 <cpressey> so you can use the other for holding the program
22:42:41 <cpressey> which should make things MUCH easier, i'd think
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22:43:03 <jimbo00000> Gentlemen, it has been a pleasure to be in such esteemed company. Have an excellent evening.
22:43:08 <pgimeno> yeah, but I don't want to use exponential encoding because I'd like to try it with a real machine
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22:44:40 <cpressey> you could implement bigints *as* a prime factorization internally - that would make it feasible (i think) - but it would make implementing add/subtract, um, "interesting"... but on the other hand, you don't ever have to *use* add or subtract...
22:45:22 <cpressey> anyway, all the 2-symbol UTMs seem to be conversions from tag systems (which are neat in themselves.)
22:46:26 <pgimeno> my idea is to use the Befunge 80x25 playfield to implement the handling of stacks and the FSM (Turing program), and the two counters as two bit stacks that implement the tape
22:46:57 <pgimeno> the state will be maintained by the program counter, probably
22:47:14 <cpressey> you know, you could almost use 2-symbol brainfuck (brainfuck f/smallfuck)
22:48:05 <cpressey> it's easier to reason about than most of these "proof that such a machine must exist (no explicit construction given though)" things :)
22:50:50 <pgimeno> I suppose that writing a boolfuck/smallfuck/bf F interpreter that uses the two counters as the cells would complete the proof
22:51:08 <lament> hey i like that bignums-as-primes idea
22:55:16 <pgimeno> is it just me or is the wiki down?
23:04:37 <pgimeno> I've just found the EsoLang FAQ :)
23:13:00 <calamari> does anyone have a backup mediawiki installation? I can redirect esolangs.org to point to it
23:16:55 <pgimeno> wooby and malaprop were the ones who offered to set up a mirror
23:17:11 <calamari> I'm downloading mediawiki just for fun
23:17:25 <calamari> I suspect the wiki will come back shortly.. but this is a good test :)
23:18:06 <pgimeno> so you can manipulate the esolangs.org domain? I thought it was wooby who controlled it
23:18:27 <calamari> wooby is in Iraq and he placed it in my care while he is gone
23:19:15 <calamari> I sure wouldn't want to be over there :)
23:20:44 <pgimeno> I just hope he returns in perfect shape
23:21:04 <calamari> as do I.. suprised he didn't tell anyone else
23:22:17 <pgimeno> maybe he thought it was offtopic here or something
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23:46:55 <calamari> got the @ stuff working in the debugger
23:47:13 <calamari> haven't changed bfbasic yet, though.. so it's not much use :)
23:47:26 <{^Raven^}> hey cool, that debug run is still going from the other day :)
23:48:23 <calamari> what will that give you? a c program that converts bf to c?
23:48:41 <calamari> I could write that in much less than a day ;)
23:49:06 <{^Raven^}> It's just a test run that I've not bothered to terminate...
23:50:41 <{^Raven^}> I have the C version of my emulator 75% finished, I'm writing it as a reference against the future BF version
23:53:13 <calamari> raven: how long till you go to bed? wondering if I want to mess with bfdebug more or release it now
23:54:42 <calamari> it turns out that only mysql 4.1+ can import dumps.. My shell provider is running mysql 4.0 :(
23:55:59 <calamari> afk, going to see if I can get them to install 4.1
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23:56:57 <Kmkr> jimbo00000: really cool befunge interpreter!
23:59:30 <Kmkr> wooby's in iraq? i hope everything goes well.