00:20:52 -!- BigZaphod has quit. 00:22:44 -!- graue_ has joined. 00:29:13 -!- graue_ has quit (Remote closed the connection). 00:29:59 -!- graue_ has joined. 00:39:23 -!- calamari has joined. 00:40:39 -!- graue_ has quit (Remote closed the connection). 00:41:22 -!- graue_ has joined. 01:17:59 -!- sergacity has joined. 02:08:38 -!- BigZaphod has joined. 02:19:16 -!- calamari has quit ("Leaving"). 03:05:47 -!- graue_ has quit (Remote closed the connection). 03:07:02 -!- graue_ has joined. 03:07:15 -!- graue_ has changed nick to graue. 03:23:40 echo is pretty easy in taxi: Go to the Post Office: west 1st left, 1st right, 1st left. Pickup a passenger going to the Post Office. Go to Tom's Trims: north. Go to the Post Office: south. Go to the Taxi Garage: north 1st right, 1st left, 1st right. 03:24:01 taxi? 03:24:05 there's an esolang called taxi? 03:24:12 as of today. :-) 03:24:13 http://www.bigzaphod.org/taxi/ 03:24:28 wonderful 04:39:10 OMG 04:39:15 That is the greatest thing I have ever seen XD 04:39:24 :D 04:39:30 -!- malaprop has quit ("sleep"). 04:57:08 OK, Gregor = loozer. 04:57:25 I've made an installer system, and now I'm making a packaging system. 04:57:41 For totally different audiences, but, how can I be so obsessed with installation of packages? Oy. 05:09:13 I am going to sleep good night 05:09:14 -!- graue has quit. 06:13:27 -!- BigZaphod has quit. 06:20:56 -!- calamari has joined. 06:20:59 hi 06:53:26 -!- BigZaphod has joined. 06:54:08 hi 06:54:11 BigZaphod: nice! 06:54:11 hey 06:54:20 tnx. :) 07:03:37 for my own part i have produced this today: http://catseye.webhop.net/projects/alpaca/eg/braktif/src/braktif.alp 07:04:01 Smallfuck/Brainfuck F-as-a-cellular-automaton 07:07:53 interesting.. 07:18:32 is life the simplest turing complete automaton ? 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:35:43 calamari: i can't think of a simpler one :) 08:37:01 life is 3x3, right? I wonder if there can be a 2x2 08:37:44 moin 08:38:14 am I the only one who thinks that Wireworld is simpler than Life? 08:38:33 not in number of states but anyway 08:39:38 cpressey: just curious, does the sketch of proof by Minsky use encoded counters as a single integer? 08:40:10 (re discussion in Talk:Befunge) 08:50:47 cpressey: nice work the cellular automaton; I still have to figure out how it works though 08:51:15 afk, bbl 09:20:12 night 09:20:15 -!- calamari has quit ("Leaving"). 09:24:57 wireworld makes a lot more sense than Life 09:25:35 cpressey: I can 09:27:39 actually i dunno 09:28:05 mathworld never actually explains in what sense is the rule 110 automaton "universal". 10:00:28 there is also KS-lambda UTM, which has three elements (two bits) like ` is 1, K is 00 and S is 01. 10:01:33 http://homepages.cwi.nl/~tromp/cl/cl.html 11:00:00 -!- jix has joined. 11:36:04 moin 11:44:51 -!- hashendgame has joined. 12:59:17 -!- malaprop has joined. 13:05:42 -!- jix has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 13:09:37 -!- hashendgame has quit ("Leaving"). 15:40:54 -!- graue has joined. 15:41:52 hello 16:20:42 -!- graue has left (?). 16:21:25 -!- jix has joined. 17:15:52 -!- BigZaphod has quit. 18:08:44 pgimeno: yes, he uses prime factorization encoding at various points... 18:14:27 lament: sorry. i assumed calamari was talking about 2d cellular automata... 18:25:27 pgimeno: yeah, i checked - he mentions a 3-register machine and a 5-register machine... he emulates the 3-register machine in a 2-register subtract/jump machine by encoding the 3 registers into one (2^a*3^m*5^n) and using the other as scratch. he then argues that the 5-register machine can be simulated on a 1-register multiply/conditional-divide machine with all five encoded as (2^a*3^b*5^c*7^d*11^e) 18:33:06 of course, in befunge, you can make life easier by storing the data in one register and the program in the other... and you can use a less pathological encoding for the program (e.g. 8 bits per symbol) 18:41:30 lament: actually they do, on http://mathworld.wolfram.com/UniversalCellularAutomaton.html and http://mathworld.wolfram.com/Universality.html 18:42:16 i agree they don't do a good job, though... they neglect to mention any other meanings of universality (e.g. construction-universal) 18:48:33 cpressey: i don't get those pages 18:49:02 they say rule 110 can emulate the other automatons 18:49:20 that's obviously not universality in the Turing sense 18:51:21 "Universal systems are effectively capable of emulating any other system." ? 18:52:27 i don't like wolfram 18:53:23 haha 19:00:30 i suppose if you can avoid the parts of mathworld that sound like free advertising for NKS, it's not _that_ bad... 19:01:25 mathworld is useful 19:01:31 i just wish they gave me a free copy of Mathematica 19:02:46 cpressey: NKS? 19:03:07 lament: have you used maxima? 19:04:04 lindi-: yes 19:04:19 maxima is so weird. 19:04:31 why give me access to Lisp 19:04:33 i don't want your lisp 19:05:22 lament: try wxmaxima 19:06:04 -!- BigZaphod has joined. 19:06:47 lindi-: NKS = "A New Kind of Science", wolfram's (monstrous) book 19:06:50 lament: you can do a lot with maxima without even knowing it's written in lisp 19:06:56 cpressey: uh 19:07:25 lament: that especially applies to wxmaxima, try it, you'll be surprised ;) 19:07:31 -!- calamari has joined. 19:07:41 i'll look at it 20:05:18 -!- J|x has joined. 20:10:11 -!- jix has quit (Nick collision from services.). 20:10:12 -!- J|x has changed nick to jix. 20:35:05 -!- guest_2566 has joined. 20:35:17 -!- guest_2566 has changed nick to jimbo00000. 20:38:31 yay, help system implemented.. how I just need to write up the html for it :) 20:38:38 now 20:39:21 Hey all, does anyone still have any interest in Befunge93? 20:40:51 that's the original, right? 20:40:55 right 20:41:00 80x25 20:43:57 I haven't really studied befunge much.. I didn't learn of it until after bf, and so I got hooked on the tarpit idea :) 20:45:13 well i just made this real neat befunge interpreter in flash (http://jimbomania.com/code/flunger.html), only to find most of the links and mailing lists dead 20:47:00 I need to figure out why flash doesn't work.. very annoying 20:47:24 I like flash programs.. always look very smooth 20:48:44 yea, totally - get that plugin running. the pc leaves behind alpha scaled trails over the code space 20:48:53 it looks cool:) 20:51:01 jimbo00000: wow the interpreter is cool 20:52:22 but the trail is too short in the random-song example 20:52:37 hey, thank you very much! you can adjust the trail length with the slider in the lower left 20:52:56 up to 100 spaces back - gotta click the handle again if youre restarting 20:53:12 yes its on 100 but the trail is only 1 char long 20:53:27 or 2..3 but not 100 20:54:44 hmmmm that does not seem correct... this is a brand new thing so bugs may abound 20:54:59 can you reproduce the bug? 20:55:09 maybe try kicking that widget once or twice - no, im getting 100 tyrails over here 20:55:28 sometime what happens is flash doesnt register the end of the drag event if you release outside of the movieclip 20:55:31 a reload did it 20:55:35 sweet 20:56:33 i'm not 100% sure the g and p instructions work perfectly - does anyone perchance have any diagnostic programs to test it? 20:56:54 or maybe some idea on how to write a good one... 21:00:40 hmm, I get just a black screen .. is that normal? 21:03:18 no, what you should see is a 80x25 textfield labeled "Funge Space" 21:03:37 and a stack, and a gray frame that says "Welcome to Flunger" 21:03:49 weird... this page worked, so I assume Flash is okay http://www.jengajam.com/r/ultimate-pong 21:04:08 jimbo00000: hey.. why not write an interactive flash interpreter for: http://esolangs.org/wiki/YABALL 21:05:33 oooo kinky - i had thought of making a SNUSP mode too 21:05:47 shouldn't be so hard given the existing graphical framework 21:06:06 but SNUSP isn't written by myself 21:06:33 How are you, Mr H? :) 21:06:49 Mr H? 21:07:18 are you the writer of YABALL? 21:07:21 yes 21:07:35 jimbo00000: cool interpreter! 21:07:38 Why H and not Harder? 21:07:42 very cool - thanks BigZ! 21:07:52 jimbo00000: I'm on linux so that's probably what's wrong 21:08:04 maybe linux flash it out of date 21:08:32 calamari: i compiled it for flash player 7 21:08:58 jix: i dunno. what was your inspiration for the language? 21:09:54 calamari: argh. flash is even worse than java at the moment ;) 21:10:01 jimbo: do you know of a website with a flash program that prints the flash version number? 21:10:28 oh cool, it's working now.. 21:11:37 jimbo00000: in Brainfuck [] can be nested.. so one needs "complex" parsing or counting the ] and [s for loops.. i wanted to avoid that 21:13:43 so the memory model is like Brainfuck's? a 1D array? 21:14:12 yes 21:14:23 just the code flow is different 21:14:53 jix: I currently know of 3 ways to deal with [], I 21:14:57 'm sure there are more: 21:15:35 1: at a ] go back and for every ] count++ for every ] count-- stop at count == 0 start with count=1 21:15:40 1) stack, 2) search for matching [] 3) convert [] to jumps before execution 21:16:06 2: do the same thing once for all loops and store them as linked list or whatever 21:16:07 3 is the fastest that I know of.. no stack needed :) 21:16:18 my nr. 2 is your nr. 3 21:17:18 I was thinking of making a button to toggle blocking on input in the interpreter - anyone think that would be practical? 21:17:29 what is the procedure if there no input waiting - just push 0? 21:18:02 push 0 or don't push at all 21:18:20 i think don't push at all is more flexible 21:18:21 jimbo: I don't think I can use the interpreter correctly yet.. the A-Z program just goes around the first row over and over :) 21:19:23 Hmmm yea, thats not right. You know, I haven't tested this in linux yet. 21:19:45 on mac os x it works.. but sometimes there is this trail bug 21:21:01 trails seem fine.. 50% looks pretty good 21:21:22 jimbo00000: are you going to release the source code? 21:21:48 jimbo00000: re befunge-93 example programs to test with: http://catseye.webhop.net/projects/befunge93/eg/ 21:23:02 I assume the v instruction means go down 21:23:04 jix: yea, sure. least i could do - thanks for the awesome languages! 21:23:11 yep, v is down 21:23:13 I guess that's what's not happening :) 21:23:30 all the source is in flash actionscript, very similar to javascript and c 21:28:41 cpressey: Thanks for the funges! what happened a couple of months ago, i thought your site went down for good? 21:30:37 jimbo00000: it moved to the current address about 2 years ago 21:32:01 there's also a strange error with the webserver<->subversion thing that i haven't been able to track down, so it's not been the most reliable in the past months 21:32:30 but now i'm restarting the webserver nightly, so it should be "OK" 21:36:09 jimbo00000: btw, thanks for making the interpreter... unfortunately i have no way to test it until i get near a machine that i can use flash on :( 21:43:49 Does anyone here ever mess with choon? 21:44:07 me 21:44:21 do anything cool with it? i just found that page today 21:44:22 but very little 21:44:27 sounds just like r2 from starwars 21:44:49 http://www.99-bottles-of-beer.net/language-choon-750.html 21:49:39 pgimeno: best beer program EVER 21:50:14 would it be possible to port the interpreter and the wav converter to php, for the integrated web choon experience? 21:50:36 i guess it would, php can write files 21:59:34 jimbo00000: excuse me, what should i do after entering execution mode? 22:00:05 oh, i got it, i got it. 22:02:29 g'nite 22:03:13 -!- graue has joined. 22:05:52 -!- jix has quit ("Banned from network"). 22:06:45 jimbo00000: it appears 'p' won't hold values with ascii value less than 32, isn't it? 22:07:54 it replaces them with symbol "?" (ascii 63). 22:08:31 mtve: that sounds correct, yes, and the upper limit is ASCII 126 22:08:49 is this correct behavior? i think i saw that javascript funge interpreter do it 22:09:37 i doubt it. at least few known programs expect values to be kept intact. 22:10:41 hmmm so i should just dump the value there, even if it is unprintable? 22:10:56 yea that makes sense for computation 22:11:27 I'll have to find some hackaround for that, as flash will most likely balk at the unprintables 22:14:04 jimbo00000: thanks 22:14:43 has anyone ever tried to mate choon with funge? 22:14:44 yep. it wasn't explicitly told in the spec, but it would be good. and yes, interpreter is very nice. 22:15:13 * pgimeno rolls eyes 22:16:01 I just had a wild idea - concurrent pcs in a 2d space executing choon, making chords possible 22:16:55 maybe add a tempo change command 22:18:10 -!- calamari has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 22:20:32 actually choon is not the kind of language I feel comfortable with 22:22:13 I am most attracted to the musical aspect of choon, more so than its syntax 22:28:06 -!- graue has quit. 22:30:36 I've been looking for an UTM program with two symbols but have been totally unsuccessful. A book by Roger Penrose has a description. Does anyone know of a TM program implementing an UTM? 22:34:21 pgimeno: yes, there are a few in the Minsky book. (it's actually a really nice book, i wish i'd found it a lot earlier...) 22:34:23 (I have the book, The Emperor's New Mind, but have lent it to someone I might not see again) 22:34:33 oh, cool 22:34:42 what's the name of the book? 22:34:51 Computation: Finite and Infinite Machines 22:35:10 the name sounds pretty attractive 22:35:20 i can scan or type in one of the UTM state diagrams if you can't find it 22:35:26 Minsky's design is... 46 or so states long, right? 22:35:52 :) he was a tarpit fan too.... he has a 4 state x 7 symbol UTM 22:35:56 (IIRC, for what I have seen googling) 22:36:33 sorry, that's 4 symbols, 7 states 22:36:41 yeah, the Wikipedia article (or was it the Wolfram one?) has the records 22:36:53 there's a 2-state one in 18 symbols IIRC 22:37:24 or probably 19 22:38:05 I've been googling for a while and seen all that 22:38:23 but I've found no description of a TM program 22:38:58 hrm, so you want one that is 2 symbols, explicitly? 22:39:16 yeah, for the extended Befunge-93 proof :) 22:40:43 heh 22:40:49 my idea is to use the two counters as two bit stacks as in part 1 of the counter article 22:40:52 there's one that never erases a symbol once written... 22:41:14 one what? utm? 22:41:20 yeah 22:41:29 blank and 1, and blank -> 1 but 1 never -> blank 22:41:35 reminds me a lot of smith :) 22:41:44 kind of, yeah 22:42:15 anyway, for the b93 proof... if i were to try it i'd probably do the multiply/conditional-divide model, since Befunge has those instructions 22:42:26 and that's only 1 register 22:42:34 so you can use the other for holding the program 22:42:41 which should make things MUCH easier, i'd think 22:42:44 -!- calamari has joined. 22:42:48 hi 22:42:58 hi calamari 22:43:03 Gentlemen, it has been a pleasure to be in such esteemed company. Have an excellent evening. 22:43:05 hi chris 22:43:08 yeah, but I don't want to use exponential encoding because I'd like to try it with a real machine 22:43:11 -!- jimbo00000 has quit ("Today is a good day to chat."). 22:43:19 ah, i see. 22:43:47 hrmmm..... 22:44:40 you could implement bigints *as* a prime factorization internally - that would make it feasible (i think) - but it would make implementing add/subtract, um, "interesting"... but on the other hand, you don't ever have to *use* add or subtract... 22:45:22 anyway, all the 2-symbol UTMs seem to be conversions from tag systems (which are neat in themselves.) 22:46:26 my idea is to use the Befunge 80x25 playfield to implement the handling of stacks and the FSM (Turing program), and the two counters as two bit stacks that implement the tape 22:46:50 right 22:46:57 the state will be maintained by the program counter, probably 22:47:14 you know, you could almost use 2-symbol brainfuck (brainfuck f/smallfuck) 22:48:05 it's easier to reason about than most of these "proof that such a machine must exist (no explicit construction given though)" things :) 22:48:46 heh, you're right 22:48:59 I'm a bit dumb sometimes 22:50:50 I suppose that writing a boolfuck/smallfuck/bf F interpreter that uses the two counters as the cells would complete the proof 22:51:08 hey i like that bignums-as-primes idea 22:55:16 is it just me or is the wiki down? 23:03:00 not working for me either 23:04:03 thanks 23:04:37 I've just found the EsoLang FAQ :) 23:13:00 does anyone have a backup mediawiki installation? I can redirect esolangs.org to point to it 23:16:55 wooby and malaprop were the ones who offered to set up a mirror 23:17:11 I'm downloading mediawiki just for fun 23:17:25 I suspect the wiki will come back shortly.. but this is a good test :) 23:17:36 :) 23:18:06 so you can manipulate the esolangs.org domain? I thought it was wooby who controlled it 23:18:27 wooby is in Iraq and he placed it in my care while he is gone 23:18:43 wow 23:18:52 yeah, sux huh? 23:19:15 I sure wouldn't want to be over there :) 23:19:16 kind of astonishing news 23:20:44 I just hope he returns in perfect shape 23:21:04 as do I.. suprised he didn't tell anyone else 23:22:17 maybe he thought it was offtopic here or something 23:29:25 -!- BigZaphod has quit. 23:44:51 <{^Raven^}> hi 23:46:47 hi raven 23:46:55 got the @ stuff working in the debugger 23:46:58 also # 23:47:13 haven't changed bfbasic yet, though.. so it's not much use :) 23:47:26 <{^Raven^}> hey cool, that debug run is still going from the other day :) 23:47:27 I should release it anyways 23:47:30 haha 23:47:41 <{^Raven^}> am running bf2c.b on itself ;) 23:48:23 what will that give you? a c program that converts bf to c? 23:48:39 <{^Raven^}> yeah 23:48:41 I could write that in much less than a day ;) 23:49:06 <{^Raven^}> It's just a test run that I've not bothered to terminate... 23:49:16 cool to hear it's still going 23:50:41 <{^Raven^}> I have the C version of my emulator 75% finished, I'm writing it as a reference against the future BF version 23:53:13 raven: how long till you go to bed? wondering if I want to mess with bfdebug more or release it now 23:54:26 <{^Raven^}> calamari: a few hours 23:54:42 it turns out that only mysql 4.1+ can import dumps.. My shell provider is running mysql 4.0 :( 23:55:01 <{^Raven^}> where is a copy of the db? 23:55:14 http://kidsquid.com/esowiki 23:55:59 afk, going to see if I can get them to install 4.1 23:56:39 -!- Kmkr has joined. 23:56:42 woah 23:56:57 jimbo00000: really cool befunge interpreter! 23:59:30 wooby's in iraq? i hope everything goes well.