00:00:19 <Kmkr> for some reason i thought graue controlled the wiki..
00:00:38 <calamari> he does
00:00:51 <Kmkr> hmm, then what wooby does?
00:00:56 <calamari> esolangs.org
00:01:07 <Kmkr> ah. me see now
00:10:00 <{^Raven^}> i can convert it to an earlier version of SQL but not without losing metadata so no luck here as I don't want to corrupt that
00:10:29 * {^Raven^} is running 3.x.x on his server
00:11:06 <calamari> hahaha
00:11:23 <calamari> how is the conversion done?
00:12:28 <calamari> I heard I could modify mysql table headers, but I have no clue how to 
00:13:18 <{^Raven^}> easy(ish), first remove the instances of ` in SQL commands
00:13:32 <{^Raven^}> and then remove all the CHARSET stuff
00:14:19 <{^Raven^}> you need to remove the charset stuff from the INSERT statements too
00:14:29 <calamari> for 4.1 to 4.0 I need to do this?
00:16:29 <{^Raven^}> for some of it yes, but I recommend against it, you will destroy too much information
00:17:05 <{^Raven^}> do you know any friendly sysadmins who could host it for a while?
00:18:00 <calamari> nope.. well I know some.. but they wouldn't know how to set it up :)
00:19:02 <{^Raven^}> hmmm, it should be pretty simple, create database + account, install mediawiki, import database
00:19:24 <{^Raven^}> my MySQL/PHP can be tough for a newbie to setup
00:19:27 <{^Raven^}> *but
00:21:17 <Kmkr> bigzaphod: really cool language :D
00:27:40 <Kmkr> well, bbl.
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00:31:14 <{^Raven^}> calamari: a competent person should be able to set it up remotely given ssh / webmin access
00:31:57 <{^Raven^}> calamari: + ftp of course
00:33:50 <calamari> raven: afk a minute.. jarring/releasing 1.20 
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00:47:29 <calamari> raven: http://kidsquid.com/programs/bf/bf.html
00:47:35 <calamari> hi graue :)
00:47:40 <calamari> having fun with the wiki?
00:49:47 <graue> no
00:49:49 <graue> why?
00:49:54 <graue> why would I be having fun with it?
00:50:08 <graue> oh, because it's down
00:50:10 <graue> that sucks
00:51:14 <calamari> I've been trying to set up mediawiki on my webspace, but have 4.0 
00:51:26 <calamari> err mysql 4.0
00:53:00 <calamari> graue: I'd like to request daily dumps when it comes back, because of all the activity.. a week loses a lot
00:56:03 <{^Raven^}> calamari: Wow!
00:56:18 <calamari> looks the same, huh? :)
00:56:46 <{^Raven^}> Now if "Now @varname goes to the cell defined by varname (note: it can be derailed with < and >)" does what I think it does that's really cool
00:57:25 <calamari> yeah.. it doesn't just jump to the cell, because that's impossible in normal bf
00:57:43 <calamari> @a>@b will bump you one past actual @b
00:58:42 <{^Raven^}> does this mean that we could theoretically compile a BFBASIC program without parsing it through arrows() and it should still work as long as the varmap is present?
00:59:15 <calamari> possibly
00:59:33 <calamari> that's the idea, at least :)
01:00:03 <{^Raven^}> I have thought about that feature, even produced the required version of BFBASIC (last week)
01:01:15 <calamari> haha
01:01:25 <{^Raven^}> This will allow the integrity of the parser proper to be tested since all the @var stuff would be theoretically perfect!
01:01:34 <calamari> have you tried $ yet?  there's a hidden bonus feature :)
01:02:28 <{^Raven^}> Definately, I have added a cvarmap to a short program which is running atm
01:02:49 <calamari> cool
01:03:36 <{^Raven^}> Would the bonus be a window refresh every thousand or so cycles? I have definitly noticed that
01:05:13 <calamari> nope.. it's the varnames on the memory list
01:05:24 <calamari> :)
01:05:59 <calamari> I haven't added that quick run stuff yet
01:06:34 <{^Raven^}> That's the first thing I spotted :)
01:07:19 <{^Raven^}> *the varnames on the memory list
01:07:28 <calamari> oops, I forgot to change the version # in the code
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01:11:02 <calamari> okay, uploaded the version fixed 1.20, also fixed a small help bug while I was at it 
01:11:53 <calamari> (if you closed help and came back, it wouldn't be back to the contents)
01:17:11 <{^Raven^}> I am running this on an extra debug version of a BFBASIC program with all the symbols defined
01:18:01 <{^Raven^}> i can see exactly which statement is currently being executed and what all the CVARS are :)
01:18:05 <calamari> cool
01:18:11 <calamari> is it working?
01:19:38 <calamari> I'd test the array code, but the wiki is down :/
01:20:21 <calamari> the support guy at my isp will try to get 4.1, so that's cool
01:20:30 <calamari> err shell, not isp
01:21:12 <{^Raven^}> yeah,  the first PRINT came out garbled but I'm using a non-standard BFBASIC atm
01:21:18 <calamari> oic
01:21:22 <{^Raven^}> otherwise all seems perfect
01:22:57 <{^Raven^}> calamari: garbled text seems to be my fault
01:29:22 <calamari> raven: I think what what I did with the @vars is called a wimpmode :)
01:31:42 <{^Raven^}> definately not, your debugger is going to be really useful for any brainfuck developer
01:35:16 <{^Raven^}> calamari: http://jonripley.com/~jon/action.png
01:37:56 <calamari> cool
01:53:59 <calamari> bbl.. phone
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02:04:16 <graue_> why are there two of me?
02:04:47 <graue_> oh, that was stupid
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02:13:18 <{^Raven^}> calamari: feature idea for BF debugger...
02:14:49 <{^Raven^}> calamari: the ability to vertically extend the memory view to show locations 16..31, 32..47, 48..63, etc
02:16:36 <{^Raven^}> it would dramatically cut so
02:17:00 <{^Raven^}> *down on the amount of left<>right scrolling and make the debugger more transparant/useful
02:30:29 <calamari> raven: do you mean there would be 48 memory locations going across?
02:30:46 <calamari> oh.. vertically :)
02:34:04 <calamari> that would really slow things down the way I'm currently drawing memory
02:34:18 <calamari> so I should fix the way I'm drawing memory :)
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07:10:34 <calamari> raven: my x(y)=z routine as on the wiki seems to work fine for x(4)=2 and x(0)=2.  It uses 3 + 2 * (total # of indices) bytes of memory
07:29:12 <calamari> I've added an explanation of x(y)=z to the wiki page
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07:40:39 <calamari> hi zaphod
07:40:47 <BigZaphod> hey
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08:46:30 <tokigun> hello
08:52:53 <calamari> hi tokigun
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13:15:48 <{^Raven^}> wb everybody
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14:01:11 <jix> moin
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14:33:39 <yrz\werk> eh...
14:33:43 <yrz\werk> today
14:33:52 <yrz\werk> i wrote an interpreter
14:34:01 <yrz\werk> for a hypercubical version of bf
14:35:18 <yrz\werk> (perfectly backward compatible)
14:36:15 <pgimeno> nice
14:36:24 <pgimeno> is it backward compatible in all directions?
14:37:09 <yrz\werk> of course ;)
14:37:35 <yrz\werk> is somewhere where i can post specification for the *new* language?
14:37:40 <pgimeno> yeah
14:37:49 <yrz\werk> tell my please :)
14:37:53 <pgimeno> http://www.esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page
14:38:08 <yrz\werk> uff, was enough read the topic.
14:38:12 <yrz\werk> that's not funny.
14:38:15 <yrz\werk> ok...
14:38:25 <pgimeno> well, not actually there; go to the Languages list, add it and create a page for it
14:44:20 <yrz\werk> pgimeno: are you english native speaker?
14:44:46 <pgimeno> nope
14:45:12 <yrz\werk> uff... anyway... do you take a look on my explication when i finish to edit?
14:47:24 <pgimeno> I'm afraid it will have to wait, as I'm a bit busy at work and eager to go home. Anyway, rest assured that someone (me or whoever finds it) will correct it if it's not clear enough. That's what a wiki is for, collaborative edits :)
14:47:55 <yrz\werk> done.
14:52:21 <pgimeno> link?
14:53:06 <pgimeno> nm, found it
14:55:36 <pgimeno> please take a look at other wiki articles to get a feeling of how the articles look like
15:04:05 <yrz\werk> i see...
15:04:28 <yrz\werk> that'll take time...
15:13:40 <pgimeno> you can let others do the work if you like
15:14:09 <pgimeno> anyway it would be nice if the link to the interpreter is in the page
15:29:51 <jix> today in school i tried to write a BF interpreter in ti-89 basic.. but the screen is too small i lost control over my own code... :(
15:37:29 <jix> i'm going to write esolang interpreters for the ti-89/92+ (using ti-gcc because basic is slow).. 
15:37:52 <jix> esolang programming at school.. yeah
16:31:09 <yrz\werk> can't i upload a tar.gz on http://esolangs.org/wiki/ ?
16:33:10 <malaprop> No, you have to beg someone with CVS access to put it in the files section for you.
16:44:05 <yrz\werk> malaprop: do you have such access?
16:47:37 <malaprop> No. I have no idea who has access beyond graue.
16:49:29 <yrz\werk> uff...
16:49:42 <yrz\werk> i would upload my hcbf interpreter.
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18:12:50 <pgimeno> yrz\werk: I'm back home and have CVS access
18:13:00 <pgimeno> (SVN rather, but anyway)
18:13:46 <pgimeno> what's the license of the interpreter?
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19:30:32 <calamari> hi
19:39:40 <{^Raven^}> hi calamari
19:43:37 <calamari> hi raven
19:44:20 <calamari> found a few more bugs in the program
19:44:33 <calamari> adding the *.bf messed up my automatic .b adding
19:45:11 <calamari> there was something else too, but it was minor :)
19:46:30 <calamari> one thing I realized when working on x(y)=z, is it would be REALLY nice to either be able to edit while running, or have a copy that can be edited
19:46:58 <calamari> I kept wanting to add comments or newlines or whatever, but I couldn't
19:47:40 <calamari> not sure of a good way to handle it yet though.. there are keyevents I can catch, but I need to see if copy/paste still works
19:48:14 <calamari> anyhow.. 
19:48:33 <calamari> at least we know that the theoretical version of x(y)=z works as expected
19:48:48 <calamari> the question is whether the implementation is correct
19:49:27 <calamari> iirc, it was just doing x(y)=z in a for loop that was crashing
19:49:49 <calamari> so I don't even need to check x=y(z) yet
19:50:05 <calamari> bbl .. lunchtime
19:57:48 <{^Raven^}> i have been editing code in between runs, copy and paste works fine, a minor issue is that when the program is loaded the first character of the program is highlighted
19:58:38 <{^Raven^}> meaning if you load some code and say immediately paste in the cvar map you trash the first character
20:00:21 <{^Raven^}> I have noticed a few BFBASIC optimisations that could be done later on and some redundant code that could be removed
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20:31:42 <calamari> hi jix
20:32:38 <calamari> raven: still working on your adventure game?
20:33:10 <{^Raven^}> not much since it was released
20:33:52 <{^Raven^}> have only been looking at using the BF statement for optimisation
20:37:00 <calamari> raven: oh, I thought you were going to write a 10k game for the 2005 contest
20:38:01 <{^Raven^}> calamari: oh...that one. yes i am still working on the compo game
20:38:30 <calamari> I need to do more research, but haven't had time between other projects
20:39:22 <{^Raven^}> I have 75% research complete, main thing is the puzzles
20:40:06 <calamari> yeah.. mine won't have puzzles in that sense.. it might be disqualified as not text adventure-enough.. dunno :)
20:40:46 <{^Raven^}> puzzle-less IF is still IF, there's quite a lot out there too
20:44:21 <jix> i'm done with my first try
20:44:25 <jix> but it isn't good enough
20:44:43 <jix> its 1.6 or 1.8k (with 2 langpacks (german and english))
20:45:06 <jix> and it isn't written in a classic language
20:51:12 <calamari> bbl.. work
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20:55:29 <{^Raven^}> calamari: I have found a bug in the FOR code
21:02:30 <jix> i have a new idea for an esolang
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21:06:31 <jix> hmm no
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21:26:29 <BigZaphod> trying to implement bf in taxi.  brain hurts..
21:26:52 <jix> taxi?
21:27:07 <BigZaphod> http://www.bigzaphod.org/taxi/
21:27:33 <jix> ah
21:51:19 <{^Raven^}> calamari: (when you get back...) I have improved and fixed a bug in the FOR code
21:52:23 * {^Raven^} ponders... Does debugging a program written in a programming language you don't know count as esoteric programming?
21:58:58 <GregorR> It does if it's perl!
21:59:15 <GregorR> But then again, programming in perl is esoteric programming *shrugs*
21:59:26 <{^Raven^}> nah, it's Java
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22:00:15 <GregorR> Hullo
22:00:41 <jimbo00000> Hey everybody, is there any choon source on the net ouside of the examples on that one page?  any at all?
22:03:28 <GregorR> I don't know of any, but that's just me.
22:05:33 <jimbo00000> not that any of this stuff is real mainstream, but google turns up nada
22:06:58 <jimbo00000> ok how about a Befunge93 question: how might one go about testing if a value on the stack is less than a number?
22:07:21 <jimbo00000> d'oh nm, i just saw it
22:07:25 <{^Raven^}> jimno00000: have you tried alltheweb, msn, lycos, altavista et al.?
22:07:41 <jimbo00000> Raven:  I have not, ill do it now.
22:08:07 <lament> i don't think there's any choon stuff.
22:09:11 <jimbo00000> turns up a lot of hits on peoples names, tough to filter out
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22:35:45 <lament> cpressey: about usefulness for computation
22:36:01 <lament> cpressey: i think it has to do with ability to implement algorithms
22:36:36 <lament> cpressey: i can write a smallfuck program to add two numbers
22:36:57 <lament> cpressey: naturally it will only add numbers up to a certain size
22:37:06 <lament> but to increase that size, i wouldn't need to change my program
22:37:14 <lament> just the alloted memory
22:39:12 <lament> can't do that with lookup tables :)
22:40:56 <lament> so i'm making a distinction between "code" and "data" ,for which i will presumably get shot
22:41:17 <lament> although in smallfuck the distinction happens to be clear
22:42:57 <lament> but then of course, even with this amount of handwaving, it's clear that SMETANA isn't useful, either
22:43:02 <lament> ...
22:43:26 <lament> or at least that being able to compile smallfuck to it doesn't prove anything
22:48:44 <lament> grrrr.
22:48:59 <lament> also consider Wireworld
22:49:13 <lament> i think it's pretty clear that wireworld is useful
22:49:42 <lament> but to implement a turing machine, you need infinite space to put the tape in.
22:49:57 <lament> However, it's very easy to describe how to create that tape
22:50:08 <lament> (it's just repetitions of a simple pattern stretching out to infinity)
22:50:12 <lament> same with Smallfuck and SMETANA
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23:33:34 <cpressey> i can write a lookup table for adding two numbers
23:33:36 <cpressey> it's easy
23:33:38 <cpressey> 1, 1, 2
23:33:40 <cpressey> 1, 2, 3
23:33:41 <cpressey> etc
23:34:53 <cpressey> for wireworld, program space == data space, and it's unbounded.
23:35:28 <cpressey> but Smallfuck programs (and tapes) and SMETANA programs are bounded.
23:36:03 <cpressey> if you have a program that isn't bounded, you seriously bend the rules for what makes an algorithm or not
23:36:15 <cpressey> e.g. if my lookup table is unbounded, then it really can add any two integers
23:43:34 <lament> for wireworld, an "unbounded" program would require infinite specification of the initial state...
23:43:51 <lament> unlike Life where you can create stuff
23:45:12 <lament> no, this definitely has to do with algorithms somehow.
23:45:44 <cpressey> but i'm not certain what your point is
23:45:55 <lament> i'm not etiher
23:45:57 <cpressey> ok
23:46:08 <lament> just thinking aloud.
23:46:49 <lament> whether a language allows arbitrary storage is really not very interesting.
23:47:51 <cpressey> it's fairly interesting to me
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