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01:28:24 <pgimeno> hum, interesting discussion
01:29:05 <pgimeno> I've been thinking about a sensible definition of "useful for computation"
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01:52:58 <jimbomania> anyone write choon? im trying to figure out a way to get a pattern of ascending thirds within a loop
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01:58:37 <pgimeno> what part of my discussion has been read?
01:58:52 <jimbo0000> you're the local choonsmith, right?
01:59:30 <jimbo0000> well i was trying to write a looping construct to print ascending minor thirds
02:00:03 <jimbo0000> i tried stepping up the notes to get a few iterations of loop - %AB++++++B.||: :||
02:02:12 <pgimeno> I've never used the = instruction
02:02:28 <pgimeno> my only Choon program was 99bob and all I needed was the correct looping
02:02:40 <jimbo0000> i thought i might be easily able to just use =-1 to get the last note played, and each time transpose up by that amount
02:03:12 <jimbo0000> i can manually plot out notes, but thats no fun
02:04:33 <pgimeno> I'm sorry, I need to rest, I can't make much sense of that right now in this state
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17:25:24 * jix pushes command-f1
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19:18:15 <jimbo0000> Hey everyone, a lovely day to you all
19:28:24 <jix> it's quiet today
19:30:37 <jimbo0000> does anyone in this room own a psp?
19:38:00 <jimbo0000> the homebrew scene is in the process of exploding - i am very excited
19:38:41 <jix> i did programming for the game-boy advance
19:41:19 <jimbo0000> how did you like it? how mature did those libraries eventually get, especially w respect to graphics?
19:42:24 <jix> oh it was.. c without stdlib and direct accessing memory-mapped registers
19:42:36 <jix> there was a stdlib.. and c++ worked too
19:42:43 <jix> and there were some graphic libs
19:42:47 <jix> but i never used them
19:43:13 <jix> an arm7tdmi 16mhz cpu isn't that fast and the less function calls the more speed
19:44:06 <jix> and memcpy is slow.. so i used DMA (there was one thing that was faster than dma using the load/store 4 registers at once asm instruction)
19:44:40 <jix> it was std gcc + std binutils + newlib
19:44:53 <jix> but with a different link scripts and crt0.s
19:45:13 <jix> and some emulators have gdb support + elf loader build in
19:45:30 <{^Raven^}> LDM/STM (as many registers as possible) in a partially unrolled loop would probably be fastest memcpy
19:45:55 <{^Raven^}> (using writeback to remove the need for ADD ctr,ctr,#x
19:46:00 <jix> DMA can be faster
19:46:12 <jimbo0000> what did you use to get executables onto the device? cable?
19:46:30 <jix> jimbo0000: flashcard and/or multi-boot cable
19:47:01 <jix> first i had to use a windows machine for development & flashing
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19:47:23 <jix> than i could use mac os x for development (linux build instructions)
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19:48:00 <jix> and later i could use mac os x for flashing (f2a open source flasher + a osx driver for some usb micro controller)
19:50:30 <jimbo0000> i had a real good time homebrewing on the dreamcast, too bad it was a dead system
19:50:48 <jimbo0000> but the psp - man its gonna be huge
19:51:30 <jix> i would prefer building my own computer (including own cpu (of course (esoteric? ^^))) and programming it
19:52:16 <{^Raven^}> jimbo0000: dreamcast homebrew is still going strong
19:53:04 <jimbo0000> Raven: i havent been checking that often, it seemed more exciting in what i thought of as its heyday around 2 years ago
19:53:38 <jimbo0000> jix: do you think you could build a computer out of wooden gates, a river and a series of small water channels?
19:53:56 <jix> i couldn't
19:54:11 <jix> but.. i could design one.. but not build it
19:54:40 <jix> i thought about water-gates a few years ago
19:55:02 <jix> but i think wood isn't the right material for it
19:55:20 <jimbo0000> i think i saw a slashdot post on it - yeah, but it would have that really old-world natural look and feel :)
19:56:06 <jix> jimbo0000: with wooden marbles and wood.. that would be more "realistic" than wood + water
19:58:22 <jimbo0000> it would probably perform a lot better - i always thought of the water&wood thing as something to do after I tired of the whole world and became a recluse deep in the wilderness
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20:00:04 <jix> what was my last msg?
20:00:58 <{^Raven^}> <jix> jimbo0000: with wooden marbles and wood.. that would be more "realistic" than wood + water
20:01:21 <jix> any replies?
20:01:30 <{^Raven^}> <jimbo0000> it would probably perform a lot better - i always thought of the water&wood thing as something to do after I tired of the whole world and became a recluse deep in the wilderness
20:02:31 * jix has to learn french
20:04:20 * jix hates learning french
20:05:54 * {^Raven^} gave up learning french after leaving school
20:06:16 * jix is going to give up learning french as soon as possible (in one year)
20:15:24 <jix> learned 117 french words today
20:15:58 <jix> trained every word about 6 times
20:16:23 <jix> ok grammar now
20:16:31 <jix> french test tomorrow..
20:16:43 <jix> and i hadn't time to learn earlier...
20:17:19 * {^Raven^} has said. "I have been eaten by my dinner..." at least once
20:18:22 <jix> we hadn't passive constructs yet
20:19:21 <jix> but french is a lot easier than german.. so i'm lucky german is my native language and i don't have to learn it :]
20:19:54 <lament> german is not my native language
20:19:59 <lament> and i still don't have to learn it :D
20:20:12 <jix> lament: yes but you can't speek german i can :p
20:20:39 <lament> who would you speak german with?
20:21:05 <jix> lament: my friends... there are whole irc networks full of german users
20:21:26 <lament> don't your friends know english? :)
20:21:36 <jix> lament: my german friends
20:22:04 <jix> and some of them arn't good at english..
20:22:25 <jix> and some of them are really bad
20:24:13 <jix> oh and i can read the original documents about Konrad Zuses plan-kalkül
20:24:41 <jix> the worlds first structured programming language with functions, variables...
20:25:07 <jix> and i can write plan-kalkül with my keyboard
20:26:35 <jix> but i don't understand the plan-kalkül
20:29:03 <jix> he starts to talk about plangebäude and plangruppen-bezeichnungen without telling me what the hell plangebäude are?
20:29:30 <jix> plangebäude == plan-buildings
20:29:50 <jix> plangruppen-bezeichnungen == plan group discriptions
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20:32:01 <jix> hmm ok maybe i should just read on
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20:52:42 <jix> jimbo0000: maybe i write a wood-water-gate simmualtor
20:54:45 <jix> i know how to build: a And gate.. a And gate with one inverted input... a Not(repowering) gate (using an And inverted one input gate and a Power line) a Buffer(repowering) gate (using an And gate and a Power line) a Xor gate (Using 2 And inv. input and a Or gate) and a Or gate
20:57:33 <jimbo0000> a simulator... what kind of sim? graphical? physical?
20:57:47 <{^Raven^}> jix: every logic gate can be constructed from NAND gates if you want to get primitive
20:58:08 <jix> {^Raven^}: but i want to save wood
20:58:42 <jix> and Or,And and And with one inverted input are the simplest gates i know (for building them with wood and for water)
21:00:20 <jimbo0000> save wood, good for the environment. is there a way to save water too?
21:00:57 <jix> you only need as much water as you need to fill the whole "circuit"
21:01:19 <jix> and if you save wood and space you save water too
21:01:59 <jimbo0000> so how did you mean a 'simulator'?
21:02:32 <jix> you can see the water flowing in the wooden pipes and the wooden gates moving etc...
21:05:41 <jimbo0000> mmm sounds like it might look nice in 3d
21:05:54 <jix> ok added a 2-bit mux (wood saving)
21:06:56 <jimbo0000> how many degrees of freedom do all these gates have? and whats the topography of the ground and water channels?
21:10:07 <jix> degrees of freedom?
21:10:19 <jimbo0000> well, what kind of moving parts are the gates comprised of, are they just solid pieces that rotate?
21:10:19 <jix> designd a woodsaving RS-Latch
21:10:42 <jimbo0000> and as for the water, i guess it needs some kind of gradient to flow, maybe a slight hill?
21:10:51 <jix> they are pipes and shelves with holes that can move
21:11:40 <jix> jimbo0000: i will include druck(don't know the english word) calculations
21:13:33 <jimbo0000> so these pipes will be closed, with pressure driving the mechanism?
21:13:39 <BigZaphod> fun event: build those wood and water gates in real life on carts with hoses and stuff. then you could do a live-action esolang thing where you code by pushing the carts around and making connections.
21:14:56 <{^Raven^}> maybe start an amish computing group ;)
21:15:22 <BigZaphod> it'd be a great event at an esolangcon. bring swimwear. :)
21:15:59 <{^Raven^}> especially is the patricipants were used to represent bits ;)
21:16:26 <BigZaphod> stdout could be a large firehose and the screen could be the audience.
21:16:51 <jix> but i think the marble approuch is easier to build
21:17:01 <{^Raven^}> of course that would me a long persistance display
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22:41:30 <calamari> I haven't had a chance to look at bfbasic.. working even now
22:42:38 <calamari> yeah.. I do research work at the university, and a paper deadline is approaching quickly
22:43:40 <calamari> there is one upcoming conference in Scotland, but I dunno if I'll have my name on that paper
22:44:17 <{^Raven^}> sounds potentially very cool, can I ask the subject you are researching?
22:46:38 <calamari> sure.. we are working on a package installation tool called sotrk. Right now it runs on a research network called PlanetLab, but we are extending it to work on Vservers, bsdjails, etc
22:47:13 <calamari> Stork shares packages between clients on the machine, reducing disk space usage and possibly memory usage as well
22:47:50 <BigZaphod> Planet Lab.. I tried to get in on that network once, but since I'm not currentl affiliated with any university.. *sigh*
22:47:52 <calamari> It also has a keyfile system to allow anyone to contribute packages
22:48:30 <calamari> I'm not a huge planet lab fan, but hey, I've learned a lot working on this thing :)
22:49:00 <BigZaphod> calamari: well, never used it, but it looked neat. I was working on a p2p app and that seemed liek a great way to test it. although development has stalled as of late.
22:50:11 <calamari> zaphod: the problem with planetlab is that it is continuously overloaded.. but yeah, it's cool in certain ways. I think it's neat how you can appear to have root on a machine when you really dont
22:50:49 <calamari> I think companies can sign up for planetlab, but it costs $
22:51:44 <calamari> hehe, anyways back to work for me
23:18:35 <{^Raven^}> BigZaphod: how long did taxi take to create? That is one twisted language.
23:19:21 <BigZaphod> I've found a few bugs here and there over the last couple days, though. Uploaded a new version (if you're playing with it).
23:22:10 <{^Raven^}> The source code makes for interesting reading, i especially like the error messages
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23:23:11 <BigZaphod> I'm working on a bf interpreter written in taxi..
23:33:09 <BigZaphod> {^Raven^}: have you tried to do anything with it?
23:33:48 <{^Raven^}> have pondered 99 bottles of beer, but as a thought experiment it was not good
23:34:31 <BigZaphod> I think 99 wouldn't be too bad once you dug in and got used to it.
23:35:02 <BigZaphod> lol.. yeah, I've developed a rather heightened sense of left and right now.
23:36:00 <BigZaphod> I have 283 lines of taxi source which manages to read a single line from stdin and break it down into the bf tokens and tests for each symbol correctly.. now I just have to, ya know, make the symbols do stuff.
23:36:17 <{^Raven^}> diagonal directions, hills and valleys would be a suggestion for Taxi++
23:36:48 <{^Raven^}> a BF terp sounds scary, but atm you're probably the only person capable
23:37:56 <BigZaphod> probably atm, yeah. with whirl it is funny because I can hardly do anything with it even though I made it. tokigun is by far the biggest whirl expert I know of.
23:40:31 <BigZaphod> this bf interpreter is quite slow.. does no computation yet but it still manages to take several seconds to process a 50 or 60 character input string. that's on my 1.66ghz powerbook. scary.
23:41:38 <{^Raven^}> your taxi interpreter could pre-parse and compile programs into something faster to interpret
23:43:05 <BigZaphod> no doubt. it half does at the moment. it parses all the commands up front and builds a list with the command code, but the data is kept as strings and everything is looked up while it is running.
23:43:45 <BigZaphod> plus it does all the math for determining left and right at run time as well, which in theory it wouldn't need to.
23:44:20 <{^Raven^}> you could tokenise the strings to single byte values
23:45:02 <{^Raven^}> and precompute destinations before execution
23:45:26 <BigZaphod> yeah that would probably help a lot.
23:46:06 <{^Raven^}> even with brainfuck such things can make a huge difference to execution speed
23:47:01 <BigZaphod> of course if the language was slightly more sane to begin with, that'd help too. ;)
23:48:24 <BigZaphod> one of these days I want to try to make a compiler for one of my languages using http://llvm.cs.uiuc.edu/ or something. never done that before.
23:51:18 <BigZaphod> ( assuming I'm even understanding LLVM correctly :) )
23:52:06 <{^Raven^}> that looks like a very interesting tool chain
23:55:17 <BigZaphod> I read someplace it is quite easy to use for compiling simple languages or something. figured it'd make a perfect tool for a fun esolang someday.
23:55:56 <BigZaphod> somewhere I ran across a sample that implemented a forth variant compiler using LLVM.
23:58:17 <yrz\werk> i didn't post the interpreter yet
23:58:31 <BigZaphod> hypercubes hurt my brain as I always try to visualize them.
23:58:33 <yrz\werk> but i don't know *WHERE* to host the tar.gz
23:58:50 <yrz\werk> BigZaphod: no way to visualize.
23:59:10 <BigZaphod> yrz\werk: my brain refuses to listen to me when I say such things.
23:59:37 <yrz\werk> BigZaphod: will help you if i change it to be 5-n ?