< 1121731568 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i wrote a crappy ping less sub-minmal befunge irc bot that prints hello msgs with the nick reversed... < 1121731582 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm going to test it < 1121731587 0 :fungebot!jix@p5489B76A.dip.t-dialin.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1121731587 0 :fungebot!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1121731592 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :urgh < 1121731599 0 :fungebot!jix@p5489B76A.dip.t-dialin.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1121731599 0 :fungebot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hello tobegnuf: < 1121731605 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1121731609 0 :jix!jix@p5489B76A.dip.t-dialin.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1121731610 0 :fungebot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hello xij < 1121731652 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyone else want's to test it? < 1121731747 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no one.. < 1121731761 0 :fungebot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hello xij < 1121731765 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :muhahaha < 1121731777 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :JOIN < 1121731778 0 :fungebot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hello xij < 1121731793 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as i said crappy and sub-minimal < 1121731827 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ITEVENDETECTSJOINSHIDDENINOTHERWORDS < 1121731828 0 :fungebot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hello xij < 1121731872 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tomorrow i'm going to write a better bot < 1121731895 0 :{^Raven^}!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :jix: what would the bot di < 1121731899 0 :{^Raven^}!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*do < 1121731912 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :{^Raven^}: the better bot? < 1121731919 0 :{^Raven^}!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :jix: yeah < 1121731964 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i thought about a little rpn calculator < 1121732002 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or something else usable < 1121732021 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :{^Raven^}: try to say JOIN < 1121732021 0 :fungebot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hello xij < 1121732058 0 :{^Raven^}!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :JOIN < 1121732058 0 :fungebot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hello }^nevaR^{ < 1121732080 0 :jimbo000!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 60 (Operation timed out) < 1121732084 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok it has no problems with nicks that are not jix < 1121732131 0 :fungebot!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1121732138 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :good nite < 1121732193 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Bitte waehlen Sie eine Beerdigungnachricht" < 1121732220 0 :{^Raven^}!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmmm...for a temporary hack we could all use palindromic nicks :) < 1121733473 0 :GregorR!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :GregogerG < 1121733539 0 :GregogerG!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :JOINIOJ < 1121733544 0 :GregogerG!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Sadly, the bot is nae here) < 1121733562 0 :GregogerG!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :GregorR < 1121734081 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is the bot written in befunge? < 1121734661 0 :heatsink!~heatsink@c-24-61-94-111.hsd1.nh.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1121735017 0 :BigZaphod!~BigZaphod@dyvl-01-0198.dsl.iowatelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1121737654 0 :{^Raven^}!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION toddles off to bed < 1121737763 0 :heatsink!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :toodles < 1121737859 0 :graue!graue@ip68-100-130-21.dc.dc.cox.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1121740949 0 :BigZaphod!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT : < 1121741462 0 :kipple___!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 60 (Operation timed out) < 1121744410 0 :BigZaphod!~BigZaphod@dyvl-01-0198.dsl.iowatelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1121747466 0 :heatsink!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Leaving" < 1121747526 0 :yrz_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1121748520 0 :malaprop!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"quit" < 1121751059 0 :BigZaphod!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT : < 1121753730 0 :BigZaphod!~BigZaphod@66.6.34.219 JOIN :#esoteric < 1121755164 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Donate a manual typewriter to ME for your only hope for a future!" < 1121755185 0 :GregorR!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :BWAHAHAHA < 1121755200 0 :BigZaphod!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT : < 1121756191 0 :comet_11!~Sanity@dialup-158.88.221.203.acc50-kent-syd.comindico.com.au JOIN :#esoteric < 1121756246 0 :comet_11!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1121759999 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :ended < 1121760000 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid JOIN :#esoteric < 1121769164 0 :jix!jix@p5489FDB5.dip.t-dialin.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1121769189 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :moin < 1121769275 0 :yrz!~yaro@82.52.180.8 JOIN :#esoteric < 1121772028 0 :kipple___!~kipple@163.80-202-100.nextgentel.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1121773505 0 :comet_11!Sanity@dialup-158.88.221.203.acc50-kent-syd.comindico.com.au JOIN :#esoteric < 1121773539 0 :CXI!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1121775462 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION is doing a BIG server cleanup < 1121776267 0 :{^Raven^}!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :jix: rm -rf / perchance? < 1121776287 0 :{^Raven^}!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION warns everybody not to actually type that as a root user < 1121776333 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nah just deinstalled all optional packages using ssh < 1121776341 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :did you know that ssh is an optional package?? < 1121781797 0 :{^Raven^}!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION saved about 4Gb clearing the package cache alone < 1121782266 0 :GregorR!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Don't type that as ANY user, it'll still recurse and delete all your files. < 1121782298 0 :GregorR!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Just all of that user's files, not ALL the files though) < 1121783402 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the wiki is down! < 1121785320 0 :malaprop!~ph@ppp-68-251-52-33.dsl.chcgil.ameritech.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1121785761 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Bitte waehlen Sie eine Beerdigungnachricht" < 1121785786 0 :jix!jix@p5489FDB5.dip.t-dialin.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1121786201 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Bitte waehlen Sie eine Beerdigungnachricht" < 1121790568 0 :fungebob!~BYUMUG@67.106.148.83 JOIN :#esoteric < 1121791301 0 :yrz!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION canzone che parla di una betoniera < 1121793297 0 :fungebob!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1121793912 0 :GregorR!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, how can I write a programming language that actually causes physical pain to program in. < 1121793937 0 :GregorR!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A language that must, for example, be written in the blood that gushes when you tear off a fingernail. < 1121794416 0 :jix!jix@p5489FDB5.dip.t-dialin.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1121794502 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :/back < 1121795454 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm writing fungebot2 < 1121795758 0 :graue!~graue@ip68-105-183-147.dc.dc.cox.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1121795843 0 :BigZaphod!~BigZaphod@198.45.23.220 JOIN :#esoteric < 1121796601 0 :_graue_!graue@ip68-100-130-21.dc.dc.cox.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1121797824 0 :yrz_!~yaro@82.52.176.70 JOIN :#esoteric < 1121798158 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1121798197 0 :_graue_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :graue < 1121798599 0 :GregorR!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION watches graue do the majestic dance of the not-registered-through-NickServ :) < 1121798795 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am registered through NickServ, I just didn't remember/care about being able to use its kill feature < 1121798833 0 :GregorR!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah, hehe :) < 1121798857 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what would 2L look like if all spaces were treated like +s, and all printing characters like *s, with no nop command? < 1121798976 0 :GregorR!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've been trying to determine if it could work with no nop. < 1121798984 0 :yrz!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1121798987 0 :GregorR!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unfortunately, I think you've got me there, it's clearly a 3L. < 1121799022 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we could call the new nopless language 1L < 1121799038 0 :GregorR!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1121799064 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :think about it though, spaces are turns and only *s can actually be executed < 1121799075 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you'd have to do a bunch of crazy stuff to get anything useful to happen < 1121799078 0 :GregorR!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm almost positive it would be non-Turing-complete, whereas 2L is presumably Turing complete. < 1121799090 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not TC, eh? < 1121799097 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what leads you to conclude that? < 1121799111 0 :GregorR!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, lemme see if I can verbalize my logic ... < 1121799137 0 :GregorR!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You couldn't loop, because getting to the beginning of the loop would involve precisely undoing everything you did. < 1121799155 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not necessarily < 1121799161 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :going one way, you could increment a variable < 1121799170 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :going the other way, you could decrement a throwaway cell you weren't using < 1121799185 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"unbalanced" loops like [->+] would not be possible though < 1121799191 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :are those required for TC? < 1121799225 0 :GregorR!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmmm ... < 1121799240 0 :GregorR!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The problem with having a throwaway cell is that you select a cell by walking up or down.l < 1121799275 0 :GregorR!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So you would hit the same "throwaway cell" every loop, and couldn't use it as an incre/decrementor. < 1121799279 0 :GregorR!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think >_> < 1121799297 0 :GregorR!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, /me is mentally formulating ... < 1121799344 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's a good point, whatever cell you're working on at any given time would correspond to the line you're on < 1121799377 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which I guess is definitely un-TC: to use an unbounded amount of memory would require an unboundedly long program < 1121799377 0 :GregorR!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I believe the value would correspond to the column. < 1121799385 0 :GregorR!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, not quite, but in a sense. < 1121799396 0 :GregorR!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Err, that line was to my own comment. < 1121799402 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1121799433 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm thinking of possible variations < 1121799441 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what if, after a turn, the next command is treated as a nop? < 1121799465 0 :GregorR!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So a turn becomes sort of a turn-n-jump < 1121799486 0 :GregorR!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, anyway, I'm at work, so I'm going to go back to working :P < 1121799501 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :say, what happens in 2L if you do this: < 1121799501 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : + < 1121799502 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :>>>>+ < 1121799502 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : + < 1121799508 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where > is the direction of the code pointer < 1121799592 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Box_%28game%29 < 1121799603 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(sorry, that's neither here nor there, but 2L sort of reminds me of it) < 1121799647 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not clear from the 2L description whether, in that case I mentioned, the code pointer turns around and comes back out, or whether it skips through the upper or lower + < 1121799659 0 :calamari!~calamari@dialup-4.240.69.246.Dial1.Phoenix1.Level3.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1121799736 0 :GregorR!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It turns around and comes back. < 1121799753 0 :GregorR!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because it turns either right or left, then interprets the + in that direction and turns the same direction again. < 1121799773 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok, thanks for the clarification < 1121803299 0 :_graue_!graue@ip68-100-130-21.dc.dc.cox.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1121803350 0 :_graue_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1121803646 0 :yrz!~yaro@82.52.177.20 JOIN :#esoteric < 1121804637 0 :yrz_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1121804975 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1121808118 0 :graue!graue@ip68-100-130-21.dc.dc.cox.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1121808126 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :have any complete programs been written in 2L? < 1121808153 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I ask so that I can test my interpreter; the site at www.befunge.org is down < 1121808471 0 :GregorR!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :One moment, I can put them all into some accessable place. < 1121808497 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm, it would be a good idea to upload it to the svn repository < 1121808502 0 :GregorR!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually, I've only ever written one 8-D < 1121808551 0 :GregorR!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.codu.org/HelloWorld.2l < 1121808581 0 :GregorR!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't have an account, but I'd be glad to add it if I had one, or somebody else can add it if they please. < 1121808600 0 :GregorR!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh wait, I should probably upload it first :P < 1121808645 0 :GregorR!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, it's up. < 1121808708 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow, that's a pretty damn long hello world < 1121808781 0 :GregorR!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :8-D < 1121808787 0 :GregorR!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's certainly not optimal. < 1121808824 0 :GregorR!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I didn't reuse, so it's nasty, but it works. < 1121809087 0 :GregorR!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MY VNC IS SCREWED UP AND MAKING MY CAPS LOCK STICK ON >_< < 1121809395 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GregorR: ok you have to write an all uppercase language now.. < 1121809495 0 :calamari_!~calamari@dialup-4.240.114.65.Dial1.Phoenix1.Level3.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1121809598 0 :calamari_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :non-wrapping versions are up http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Brainfuck_constants < 1121809696 0 :calamari_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is 255 optimal? < 1121809760 0 :calamari_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, seem to be missing nonwrapping 2 cell for 255 < 1121809806 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :calamari_: it makes no sense to include the + only constants imho < 1121809811 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd remove the (n,1) non-wrapping version < 1121809813 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1121809894 0 :calamari_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was trying to be complete about it < 1121809920 0 :calamari_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :seems weird including the wrapping 1 cell without including the nonwrapping < 1121809989 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :indeed, sorry, I mean the (n,1) < 1121809997 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :either wrapping or non-wrapping < 1121810049 0 :calamari_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, you can remove it if you'd like, I suppose.. but maybe start a talk thread about it < 1121810050 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :calamari_, are you going to share your program? < 1121810058 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :calamari: or add line breaks .. < 1121810068 0 :calamari_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :graue: I'd like to.. but I protest the difficult wiki uploading < 1121810101 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :calamari_: image uploading is very easy < 1121810107 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is file uploading different? < 1121810117 0 :calamari_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :jix: so I should save my code as an image? :) < 1121810125 0 :GregorR!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol, the wiki battle never ends on #esoteric does it? < 1121810135 0 :GregorR!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :calamari: (re)write it in piet ;) < 1121810146 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :calamari_, email it to me and I'll add it to svn < 1121810152 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mailto:graue@oceanbase.org < 1121810232 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I protest that the Brainfuck constants page now scrolls horizontally :( < 1121810258 0 :calamari_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :graue: may I ask why code uploads are disallowed? < 1121810273 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I didn't know they were disallowed < 1121810287 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :does it check the file type? < 1121810310 0 :calamari_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, if code uploads are allowed, why the separate file repository? < 1121810326 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for organization purposes < 1121810335 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a program like yours could go in brainfuck/util/ < 1121810360 0 :calamari_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, so mediawiki has no concept of directories < 1121810381 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, its upload system is really just designed for sounds and images < 1121810387 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe only images < 1121810410 0 :calamari_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :perhaps it can be repaired with a plugin < 1121810435 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :perhaps the file repository works fine already? < 1121810468 0 :calamari_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nah.. < 1121810491 0 :calamari_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if a plugin could be written to atach an upload to a certain page, would you allow it? < 1121810633 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1121810640 0 :calamari_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :calamari < 1121810651 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if by upload you mean "file on the file repository", then perhaps, if it wasn't too much of a hassle to install < 1121810718 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :graue: I mean, for example, if I upload my file while in the page xyz, it'd be in directory /xyz, so that all xyz-related programs are stored together. Then, it would also appear as a downloadable file on page xyz < 1121810781 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then no, I see no reason to store files in two separate places. < 1121810810 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure.. so scrap the old file repository < 1121810823 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the files can be moved to the new structure < 1121810863 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think a file manager for media wiki would be cool < 1121810880 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are special pages for viewing them like a normal directory structure < 1121810908 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and a wiki page can include things like [[Directory:/brainfuck]] for listing all brainfuck files < 1121810910 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :jix: wouldn't it be cooler to go to the befunge page and have a list of files you can download, right on that page? < 1121810936 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or [[File:/brainfuck/a_kewl_interpreter.tar.bz2]] for direct downloads < 1121810964 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that < 1121810965 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :'d work < 1121810972 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :calamari: yes but i think having a normal directory structure is good too for just browsing some files < 1121810988 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how would files be uploaded easily? < 1121810999 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :calamari: browser upload? < 1121811008 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :on the Special: pages I would hope? < 1121811014 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1121811027 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm going to try writing such a plugin < 1121811032 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what do you think, graue? does this sound reasonable? < 1121811037 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i've holidays and a lot of time < 1121811177 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :jix: that'd be really cool. thanks < 1121811194 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mediawiki is php? < 1121811198 0 :GregorR!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yup < 1121811202 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :urgh < 1121811207 0 :GregorR!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1121811213 0 :GregorR!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe I'll go write it for Giki XD < 1121811221 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Giki? < 1121811235 0 :GregorR!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why do I even try? < 1121811242 0 :GregorR!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://giki.sourceforge.net/ < 1121811291 0 :GregorR!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, I get the feeling that my letting on my PHP skill just volunteered me to writing this plugin ... < 1121811337 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't like php < 1121811356 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but i know it so there shouldn't be a problem < 1121811369 0 :GregorR!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lesse, if I remember right you're a ruby guy, right? < 1121811381 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1121811405 0 :GregorR!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, I can respect that. If you disliked PHP but prefered perl, I would have to blacklist you from my knowledge ;) < 1121811435 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i first learned RealBasic (my first programming language with ca. 10 years) < 1121811445 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :than i learned Perl (and it was better than RealBasic) < 1121811457 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :than i learned PHP ( and it was better than Perl) < 1121811499 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then i learned C (and it was like: urgh? i don't want to care about memory and that lowlevel stuff!) < 1121811519 0 :GregorR!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol, poor C doesn't get any respect any more :P < 1121811533 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :too many people using gets ;) < 1121811549 0 :GregorR!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :True < 1121811569 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm using c... but if you only used gc:ed languages and then learn c.. < 1121811578 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :c is a great language < 1121811585 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(ruby is implemented in c so it has to be great ;) < 1121811602 0 :GregorR!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Heheh < 1121811607 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :asm > c ;) < 1121811614 0 :GregorR!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Machine code > ASM < 1121811616 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh and afaik the argument c isn't turingcomplete because of sizeof(void*) is wrong! < 1121811625 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if c runs on a machine with infinte integers < 1121811630 0 :GregorR!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's implementation specific, for one. < 1121811641 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sizeof(void*) can be infinite too < 1121811728 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the integer size doesn't need to be infinite.. just access an inifinite number of them from disk, etc. < 1121811774 0 :GregorR!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Aslo a very good point. < 1121811812 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :calamari: afaik the c documentation says sizeof has to return an integer < 1121811818 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh from disk < 1121811837 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it'd depend on if there were any rules about the implementation of file i/o < 1121811838 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1. read 2. think 3. write < 1121811871 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i always reverse the list < 1121811982 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think that's correct < 1121811991 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you cannot create an unbounded number of files in C < 1121812055 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :graue: would such a wiki file system work for the esolang wiki? < 1121812065 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can create a lot, no doubt, but the filename has to be in a char array, so as long as there is a limit on variables in memory (which we've already established, thanks to sizeof having to return a finite number), there is a limit on how many files can be used < 1121812084 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :jix: I'd rather keep it simple < 1121812090 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MediaWiki barely works as it is < 1121812114 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :graue: you could access a InfiniteMemory pci device < 1121812121 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also one of the reasons we rejected putting files on the wiki is that they may be subject to copyrights < 1121812125 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or a Brainfuck device using usb! < 1121812130 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :graue: doesn't seem that complicated to me < 1121812132 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :jix: not with standard C < 1121812156 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :graue: it'd just be entendning the existing Special:Upload(s?) page to allow directories < 1121812170 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :graue: of course, i assume the pci libs of your system are written in c < 1121812177 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :graue: then the files would be linked just like normal, but with directory path too < 1121812194 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :calamari: that's a big extension to "just" make < 1121812207 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :jix: you probably need some assembly to talk to the hardware < 1121812226 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :graue: why are you so stuck on the repository? it is useless < 1121812228 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :graue: on the gba you don't < 1121812238 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :jix: ok, so the GBA is Turing-complete? < 1121812243 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that proves nothing about C < 1121812263 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :on unix-like systems everything is a file, no assembly < 1121812267 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you want to prove C turing complete, you have to stick to what C provides < 1121812280 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pgimeno: all unix-like systems require some assembly in the kernel to talk to the hardware < 1121812283 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :graue: c provides reads and writes to memory < 1121812308 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :C also leaves undefined what happens if that isn't memory you allocated yourself, or got with the & operator < 1121812336 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and memory mapped device communication isn't something undoable < 1121812343 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :un-doable < 1121812344 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that's not C < 1121812347 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not undo-able < 1121812350 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's a particular programming environment < 1121812351 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my point is: if the infinite tape device is already given by the OS then C can be TC < 1121812368 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pgimeno, yes, but that's not C, that's the OS's programming environment < 1121812383 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :graue: just define sizeof(int) == infinite < 1121812394 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and sizeof(void*) == sizeof(int) < 1121812395 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :jix: the standard doesn't allow that < 1121812400 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :graue: it does < 1121812416 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm pretty sure it doesn't, but if you can cite where it does go ahead < 1121812427 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least i didn't found a word/sentence/paragraph that disallows that < 1121812450 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(i looked at the c99 standard) < 1121812466 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : The sizeof operator yields the size (in bytes) of its operand, which may be an expression or the parenthesized name of a type. The size is determined from the type of the operand. The result is an integer. ... its type (an unsigned integer type) is size_t, defined in the header. < 1121812471 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://dev.unicals.com/papers/c99-draft.html#6.5.3.4 < 1121812499 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where does it say that integers are finite < 1121812526 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what would sizeof(int) return otherwise? < 1121812532 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :infinity < 1121812548 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if sizeof(size_t) is infinity where is the problem < 1121812558 0 :GregorR!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :However, I think it ultimately comes down to this: The C language itself does not define sizeof(void *), and so the C LANGUAGE is Turing complete, since the LANGUAGE doesn't place any limits < 1121812559 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :than size_t is able to store infinty < 1121812570 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ack < 1121812579 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GregorR, you're missing the point < 1121812594 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if the C language itself says sizeof(void *) cannot be infinite, then the C language is not Turing-complete < 1121812623 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :graue: where does it says that < 1121812626 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it doesn't matter if sizeof(void *) is A(20, 19) where A() is Ackermann's function, that's still finite < 1121812629 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :jix: I said "if" < 1121812646 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes but it doesn't < 1121812671 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, "infinite" is not an integer < 1121812680 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :good point < 1121812759 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not in the mathematical sense, but it could be part of the domain of a C integer... the question is if the standard would disallow that < 1121812787 0 :GregorR!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If sizeof(void *) was infinite, you'd have infinite space to store sizeof(void *) :) < 1121812799 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's (inf & 1) where inf is an integer variable holding infinity? < 1121812836 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably & is illegal when applied to that value < 1121812838 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are infinte ways to store infinity < 1121812842 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since the standard doesn't define "integer" so far as I know, there's no reason to believe they aren't using the common definition < 1121812850 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :& is illegal? the standard doesn't say so < 1121812862 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :inf & 1 could be 1 or 0 < 1121812868 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :emphasis in "to that value" < 1121812870 0 :GregorR!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why wouldn't inf & 1 be 1? That seems most logical. < 1121812879 0 :GregorR!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Infinite many on bits & 1 = 1 < 1121812893 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe infinity is 1 followed by infinite zeroes? < 1121812902 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(in binary or decimal or whatever base you desire) < 1121812918 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or 1 is followed by a never repeating random sequence? < 1121812928 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1121812942 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but & isn't illegal with any of that infinities < 1121812949 0 :GregorR!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, this conversation is getting a bit to esoteric for me (hahaha), I'm going back to work :P < 1121812964 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1121813037 0 :{^Raven^}!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :graue: any number that can be expressed is finite, an infinite number cannot be expressed numerically hence the infinity symbol < 1121813059 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder if the standard says/assumes sizeof(type) must return a numerical value < 1121813123 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait < 1121813124 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it does, I quoted it < 1121813126 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :above < 1121813131 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sizeof(void*) == 1 < 1121813132 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the sizeof operator returns a size_t < 1121813138 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but a byte is infinity large < 1121813144 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is an unsigned integer value < 1121813157 0 :GregorR!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought C needed to have a byte as 8 bits? < 1121813177 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GregorR: does it? < 1121813182 0 :{^Raven^}!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, a byte can be any number of bits wide, it is implementation dependant < 1121813200 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :3.4.3.2: A byte is composed of a contiguous sequence of bits, the number of which is implementation-defined. The least significant bit is called the low-order bit; the most significant bit is called the high-order bit. < 1121813208 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :an infinitely large byte could not have a high-order bit < 1121813240 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why couldn't it < 1121813246 0 :{^Raven^}!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :graue: that's a metaphysical question < 1121813247 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's 2^Infinity < 1121813254 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :infinity is definitely not an integer; I thought that the sentence about sizeof() meant an int < 1121813263 0 :GregorR!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION takes out one of his hairs and tears it asunder. < 1121813265 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it did indeed < 1121813273 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pgimeno: sizeoff(void*) == 1 no problem < 1121813287 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that 1 byte has infinite bits < 1121813300 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's the value of the high-order bit of a byte, then? < 1121813311 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :2^Infinity < 1121813312 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how do you determine it, I mean < 1121813336 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :do i have to determine it? the standard just says its called high-order bit < 1121813337 0 :GregorR!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Within C, I think you would have to do some logic on (unsigned) 0 - 1 < 1121813351 0 :GregorR!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But for that matter, what is (unsigned) 0 - 1 < 1121813356 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you don't need the zero, - is a unary operator, just do (unsigned)-1 < 1121813361 0 :{^Raven^}!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we can define the number of bits in that byte using the lowest order of magnitude of infinity (Aleph Zero) < 1121813370 0 :GregorR!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Err, right graue that makes more sense. < 1121813406 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think pgimeno nailed it already, no definition of "integer" in common use allows for the possibility of infinity < 1121813447 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :graue: c doesn't say that the sign is the high-order bit < 1121813451 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway jix is right: if a byte can be infinite and an int is 1 byte long then sizeof(int)=1 < 1121813472 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, but then CHAR_BIT is infinity < 1121813492 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yuck < 1121813545 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll stick to Noll's calc instead of C when I need a TC C-like language :) < 1121813569 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :c is too implementation specific.. < 1121813588 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i have to do more useful things.. (like searching an esoteric language for writing an irc bot) < 1121813684 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :{^Raven^}: are BFBasic arrays stable now? < 1121813706 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mmmh... use Thue? :) < 1121813719 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :jix: there may still be some bugs < 1121813720 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's good managing strings < 1121813733 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pgimeno: the input output system of Thue is a bit weak < 1121813750 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :calamari: the last time i checked it it was near unusable < 1121813753 0 :{^Raven^}!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :jix: not in 1.50rc2, but they work very well in version 1.30 (on calamari's site) < 1121813842 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :does bf-basic works with 8bit bf xor 16bit bf? < 1121813850 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or both < 1121813858 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :8-bit < 1121813867 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and bf-asm? < 1121813868 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what happens with a 2L program when it goes off the right or bottom of the program? does it just loop forever? < 1121813871 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :16-bit < 1121813903 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I notice only going off the top or left is defined as ending the program < 1121813915 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually I think bfasm can use any number of bits >= 16 < 1121813924 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :let me check that tho :) < 1121813962 0 :GregorR!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :graue: In my minds view of a 2L program, it goes infinitely right and down. < 1121813973 0 :GregorR!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Clearly that is implementation specific - in my 2Li, it'll just crash 8-D < 1121813991 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, according to what I wrote in the specs, you can use anything 16-bits and over with bfasm < 1121813998 0 :GregorR!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So yes, if you went off the right or bottom end of a 2L program it would quit - but there is no right or bottom end of a 2L program. < 1121814028 0 :GregorR!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Actually, I might have cought it and done somethign strange with it in my 2Li...) < 1121814060 0 :{^Raven^}!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :calamari: jix: it's best to use an interpreter that does [-] in one operation otherwise you will be waiting a long time for any -[-] type operations to complete < 1121814136 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :jix: the bfi.c I included in bfasm handles [-] and should be able to run any 16-bit bfasm program < 1121814152 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :its included in bfbasic too < 1121814158 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are certainly faster interpreters tho :) < 1121814384 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GregorR: if the active memory cell is TL1 and I run into a +, does it turn left or right? what is the value at TL1 assumed to be? < 1121814514 0 :GregorR!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :0 at all times if I remember properly. < 1121814537 0 :GregorR!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :When you're done, I'll have some spec-upgrading to do XD < 1121814585 0 :GregorR!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(BTW, yes, I verified, it's 0 at all times) < 1121814778 0 :BigZaphod!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT : < 1121814850 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my interpreter ends if it goes off the right or bottom of the program, so I guess it isn't compliant < 1121814866 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(it defines "bottom" as the last line, and "right" as "beyond the last character on the longest line") < 1121814879 0 :GregorR!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The standard is "undefined" < 1121814884 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fair enough < 1121814886 0 :GregorR!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or more specifically "the result is undefined" < 1121814919 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm trying to write a program that prints a capital A, but I can't figure out how to do it < 1121815018 0 :comet_11!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :CXI < 1121815104 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the irc msg dispatcher is done 70% < 1121815119 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :jix: whatcha writing it in? < 1121815126 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :BFBASIC < 1121815128 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cool < 1121815170 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh there, I did it < 1121815331 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm still interested in making a 1L < 1121815380 0 :GregorR!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :graue: Is your interpreter working slash can I see it? < 1121815403 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's on another computer, I'd have to reboot several times to get it over here to send to you (long story) < 1121815413 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it seems to be working; my A program works < 1121815438 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I made it by just modifying my Archway2 interpreter a little bit: http://www.esolangs.org/files/archway/impl/archway2.c < 1121815443 0 :GregorR!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What language is it in? < 1121815445 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :C < 1121815446 0 :GregorR!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, C. < 1121815456 0 :GregorR!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But there's already a 2L in C ;) < 1121815468 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :please privmsg me < 1121815471 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I rewrote some of run() and that was it < 1121815527 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :does your 2L in C support arbitrarily large amounts of code and data, limited only by the C implementation and the memory available to the interpreter? < 1121815543 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and does it do so in a roughly efficient manner? < 1121815555 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and allow for individual lines to be arbitrarily long as well? < 1121815560 0 :GregorR!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Burn :) < 1121815581 0 :GregorR!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, mine is quite teh sukk. < 1121815592 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, splint gives only 6 warnings on mine :) < 1121815662 0 :GregorR!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But do you have a 2Lc? :) < 1121815676 0 :GregorR!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That produces code so ugly it makes you want to vomit with rage? < 1121815764 0 :jix2!jix@p5489FDB5.dip.t-dialin.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1121815790 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mah the xchat raw log is wrong! < 1121815809 0 :GregorR!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There was some talk of making a 1L that worked by having a different angle of incidence for turns (If it was in the left corner, it turned right and did an op, if it was in the right corner, it turned left and did no op) < 1121815815 0 :jix2!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's me using netcat (like telnet but not for shells) < 1121815835 0 :GregorR!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :netcat rocks < 1121815847 0 :jix2!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it does < 1121815857 0 :GregorR!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I think it was decided that A) angle of incidence would make it like two commands and B) ... there was some other issue ... < 1121815865 0 :jix2!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's the best irc client! < 1121815870 0 :GregorR!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Are you using netcat classic or GNU netcat? < 1121815891 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the man page says nothing about GNU < 1121815904 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and afaik the gnu netcat command is netcat my netcat command is nc < 1121815934 0 :GregorR!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Both correct. < 1121815942 0 :GregorR!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GNU netcat is better IMHO < 1121815960 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but mac os x comes with the other netcat < 1121815990 0 :GregorR!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah :) < 1121816005 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i miss nc -lp port -some_letter command for starting a server on port port tunneling stdin and stdout of command through it < 1121816065 0 :GregorR!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought netcat classic supported that ... < 1121816076 0 :GregorR!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess I haven't actually used it in quite a while XD < 1121816210 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how about a 1L based on P'', with only commands equivalent to +< and >? < 1121816220 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in the other two directions, spaces could be nops < 1121816291 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or, a third command could be [.<]<[,<] which would eliminate the need for TL0 and TL1, and the fourth direction could be a nop < 1121816299 0 :GregorR!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Link to info on P''? < 1121816314 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.esolangs.org/wiki/P%27%27 < 1121816370 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :essentially, it's Brainfuck with no I/O, and with a +< command, and without the commands that can be derived from other commands < 1121816440 0 :GregorR!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, THAT many commands can be derived? < 1121816491 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :from +< > [ and ], and if wrapping around with incrementation is allowed, then yes, +, <, and - can be derived < 1121816512 0 :GregorR!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ahhh, of course, wrapping. < 1121816515 0 :GregorR!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That didn't occur to me. < 1121816536 0 :GregorR!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So in 8-bit, to get 255, you'd have to do (+<)(>) 255 times < 1121816544 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1121816567 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course, that doesn't require wrapping, and would work for more than 8-bit < 1121816595 0 :GregorR!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, that was quite certainly the worst possible example 8-D < 1121816811 0 :BigZaphod!~BigZaphod@66.6.34.219 JOIN :#esoteric < 1121816892 0 :GregorR!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You know graue, I'm starting to believe XD < 1121816896 0 :GregorR!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It just might work. < 1121816918 0 :GregorR!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A single BF command might map to a 50x50 block of unreadable mess ...... < 1121816921 0 :GregorR!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But it may work. < 1121817261 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i need a fast, very fast brainfuck compiler < 1121817288 0 :{^Raven^}!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :jix: 8-bit or 16-bit? < 1121817293 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :8-bit < 1121817410 0 :{^Raven^}!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :jix: http://jonripley.com/i-fiction/games/LostKingdomBF.zip < 1121817433 0 :{^Raven^}!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's a very fast portable one inside bftools < 1121817486 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and a compiler? < 1121817546 0 :{^Raven^}!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, that's an interpreter. what do you need to compile BF to? < 1121817578 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to c to ppc and pc < 1121817595 0 :GregorR!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you mean that the compilation has to be fast or the compiled code has to be optimal?