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01:39:22 <Gs30ng> is there any brainfuck-brother-lang which has many-dimensional memory space?
01:39:48 <Gs30ng> i think there should be one like that but can't find it
01:40:27 <int-e> it seems obvious but I know none. it spoils the minimalistic nature of the language
01:41:13 <Gs30ng> well, what if we can choose the dimension with > and <
01:41:35 <int-e> why not just make ^ and v operations?
01:42:02 <Gs30ng> hmm
01:42:14 <int-e> well, I'm not sure how useful this is. I like brainfuck as it is.
01:43:00 <Gs30ng> well, we can make it have endless dimensions with approximately 10 instructions
01:43:51 <Gs30ng> like, each dimension has only 0 and 1 coordinate
01:44:27 <int-e> it's easier than that with 10 instructions - <> stay as is, */ choose next or previous dimension.
01:44:46 <int-e> for the <> instructions.
01:45:02 <Gs30ng> hmm that could work
01:46:47 <Gs30ng> but i think there already would be the one like that
01:47:07 <Gs30ng> tons of brothers of brainfuck
01:47:26 <int-e> Hmm I never really cared.
01:48:47 * int-e wonders if there will ever be an Unlambda 3
01:59:13 <Gs30ng> Damn i feel like i've once saw something like that in my dream but cannot remember what was that
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02:36:45 <cpressey> Gs30ng: hcbf
02:37:30 <Gs30ng> hcbf
02:38:02 <cpressey> yes
02:38:05 <cpressey> see its wiki entry
02:38:14 <Gs30ng> ok i'm on it
02:39:07 <Gs30ng> so it's a bf with 4 dimensional memory space?
02:57:54 <lament> hmmmmmmmmmmmm
02:58:00 <lament> i really like the idea of 2-dim brainfuck
02:58:05 <lament> has it been done before?
02:58:22 <lament> it does seem extremely obvious now :)
02:59:05 <lament> the nice thing about 2-dim as opposed to 4 or whatever is that it's nice and visual
03:02:25 <lament> actually now that i think about it, it has practically no advantages over regular brainfuck.
03:27:21 <Gs30ng> well i think there's already one with 2-dim memory space
03:27:35 <Gs30ng> with <, >, ^, v
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05:45:26 <calamari> hi
05:46:39 <calamari> Gs30ng: 99% sure there is already at least a 2-D BF
05:47:16 <Gs30ng> i'm sure that i saw a bf with  2d memory
05:47:34 <calamari> oh.. that's different :)
05:47:42 <Gs30ng> well
05:47:50 <calamari> didn't read carefully enough.. oops
05:47:50 <Gs30ng> you meant the code space?
05:47:59 <Gs30ng> like PATH?
05:48:02 <calamari> yeah.. looks like Chris already found it?
05:49:15 <Gs30ng> still i'm not sure that there would be any bf with unbounded dimensions
05:50:12 <Gs30ng> just like int-e said, introducing 2 instructions choosing next or previous dimension for <> instructions
05:50:41 <Gs30ng> or we don't even need <>
05:50:47 <Gs30ng> just @
05:51:08 <Gs30ng> since we have unbounded dimensions
05:51:16 <calamari> yep, but then are you still multidimensional with memory? :)
05:51:30 <calamari> might as well be a regular 1-d array then
05:51:50 <Gs30ng> well, an address of a cell could be like
05:51:59 <Gs30ng> (1, 0, 0, 1, 1, 1, 1, 0, 0, 1, 1)
05:52:04 <Gs30ng> or something
05:52:18 <calamari> as far as bf variants goes, brainfork seems interesting
05:52:52 <calamari> although it seems like the same functionality should be able to be written in pure bf
05:57:05 <Gs30ng> i'm thinking about multidimensional stack
05:58:37 <calamari> I was thinking about graph memory the other day
05:58:48 <calamari> not sure how well that'd work though :)
05:59:13 <Gs30ng> graph memory
05:59:25 <Gs30ng> sounds like befunge code space or something
05:59:27 <calamari> oh sorry.. undirected graph 
05:59:54 <Gs30ng> what's that?
05:59:59 <calamari> I think there is another term but I've forgotten it
06:00:53 <calamari> think of a map with cities on it, connected by roads..  the cities are vertices, the edges are roads, the whole thing is a graph
06:01:26 <Gs30ng> oh
06:02:50 <calamari> man, smell something burning.. hope that's just the lamp
06:03:14 <Gs30ng> Brainburn
06:03:29 <Gs30ng> i would make a lang with that name
06:03:35 <calamari> I think the lamp just burned a bug.. :)
06:03:50 <calamari> hehe, that's what you can call your bf variant
06:03:59 <Gs30ng> can i burrow the lamp?
06:04:02 <Gs30ng> to debug my codes
06:04:12 <calamari> nah, no burrowing in my lamp
06:04:16 <Gs30ng> oops
06:04:17 <Gs30ng> typo
06:04:29 <calamari> ;) I know.. just a joke 
06:07:28 <Gs30ng> hmm it stunk... sounds like a huge bug
06:08:34 <Gs30ng> s/stunk/stank
06:08:52 <Gs30ng> ...whatever
06:56:16 <GregorR> I think I'll release OBLISK-1.0.5 during OSCon tomorrow.
07:06:06 <calamari> oscon?
07:06:38 <calamari> nm, found it
07:10:38 <calamari> I suppose you're going, since it's near you? :)
07:12:06 * calamari didn't realize Oregon was a big spot for open source.. would have figured some place in California would have created a bigger draw 
07:30:11 <GregorR> It would have in 1999.
07:30:26 <GregorR> And I'm only going because I managed to get a free pass, they retail in the 1000s.
07:31:07 <calamari> so much for open source being cheap, heh
07:47:49 <GregorR> Furthermore, about 60% of the exhibitions are proprietary.
07:47:56 <GregorR> So much for open source being open, eh?
07:48:32 <GregorR> I would contend that that alone is a fantastic reason for promotion of the term Free Software.
07:49:03 <GregorR> I don't think Oracle or Intel would be at FSCon
07:56:43 <calamari> you can bring a linux cd for the sony playstation and load up the wiki on the big screen hehehe
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12:22:34 * {^Raven^} can browse to the bfwiki site on the PS2 without linux
12:24:01 * {^Raven^} just uses the notwork access disk
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18:40:23 <calamari> bbiafm
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18:47:50 <calamari> re's
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19:03:11 <pgimeno> bbiafm? does the "f" stand for the same as in FVWM?
19:04:13 <int-e> that's 'be back in a few minutes', apparently
19:04:31 <pgimeno> ah
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19:32:27 <lament> hm
19:32:42 <lament> it'd be interesting to have a language with no finite datatypes.
19:33:51 <lament> perhaps with infinite lists of integers as the only first-class values
19:36:59 <lament> or maybe it'd be too much like data-oriented.
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19:45:35 <mtve> lament: it was here afair, and i'm sure you've seen this   http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~sgtatham/infinity.html
19:54:53 <lament> i haven't
19:55:20 <mtve> nice, isn't it?
19:55:54 <int-e> lament: kayak did that, sort of.
19:56:27 <int-e> well, it has infinite lists of bits as its only datatype. but I'm not sure what you're after
19:58:39 <lament> yeah, i guess.
19:59:45 <lament> but i was thinking more like haskell-style
19:59:55 <lament> [1..]
20:01:08 <lament> mtve: i like the time machine idea more
20:01:14 <lament> although they're equivalent most likely
20:06:26 <lament> (in effect: call a function; if it returns, do one thing; if it fails to halt, do another thing)
20:12:22 <lament> if (find_goldbach_counterexample()) == BOTTOM)
20:12:34 <lament>   puts("Goldbach proven!");
20:13:28 <int-e> hum
20:13:43 <lament> all function calls are executed by wrapping them in a time machine module that returns the result to the same point in time
20:13:46 <lament> (or fails to return)
20:13:52 <lament> therefore all function calls are O(1)
20:14:13 <lament> and all functions return (but they may return bottom)
20:16:05 <lament> this would be a fun extension to add to existing languages.
20:16:10 <lament> Once time travel is invented, naturally.
20:17:09 <int-e> hmm. how do you deal with energy issues?
20:17:25 <int-e> there might not be enough to send an infinite number of time machines back in time
20:17:44 <int-e> not to mention the logistic issues of collecting the results - wait - ok, that can be dealt with actually.
20:18:03 <lament> collecting results is the easy part
20:18:14 <lament> the annoying part is that every time something fails to halt, you lose a time machine
20:18:16 <int-e> I think I should read Goedel, Escher, Bach again.
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20:21:33 <lament> i wonder how amusing would be to actually implement that
20:21:55 <lament> wait a few seconds for the functions to halt before deciding they don't
20:22:46 <int-e> how do you make a time machine that's 100% reliable?
20:22:55 <int-e> hehe
20:23:11 <lament> presumably it won't be physical
20:23:17 <mtve> time travel idea could be reduced to "information transfer back in time", even on a short period of time, and even one bit of information.
20:23:34 <lament> yeah.
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20:23:50 <lament> still, if it's physical
20:23:54 <mtve> perhaps it should not consume energy at all.
20:23:55 <lament> the time machine has to contain a computer
20:24:06 <lament> that is able to run indefinitely
20:24:13 <lament> survive heat death of the universe, etc
20:24:23 <lament> so it can't consume energy
20:24:46 <lament> perhaps instead of a time machine, you can just ask god
20:24:59 <lament> "does this thing halt, and if so, what's the return value?"
20:25:06 <lament> call the language Vatican :)
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20:25:18 <lament> then you don't have energy issues
20:25:34 <lament> although perhaps possible faith issues
20:28:02 <mtve> machine, computer, too complicated.   maybe it's just some particle that can travel back in time in a short range, and an emitter plus an absorber.  looks more realistic to me :)
20:30:04 <mtve> with only one bit you still can get more bits thru overlapping "travels".   then you can greatly reduce classes of problems.  let's say all modern crypto would collapse and so on.
20:38:39 <int-e> information hiding would become pointless anyway
20:43:41 <lament> like it isn't already.
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22:02:49 <Keymaker> hello worrrrrrld
22:03:38 <Keymaker> tokigun: good job with the new esoteric section of your page
22:14:11 <Keymaker> well; bye.
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22:21:28 <lament> heh
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