00:00:29 -!- Keymaker has left (?).
00:29:22 -!- vbnz has joined.
00:34:11 -!- vbnz has quit ("*monkey grin*").
00:39:59 <jix> i'm insane...
00:40:11 <jix> did ?z x y.x (z x y) => (S (K (S (S (K S) (S (K K) I))))) (S (S (K S) (S (K (S (K S))) (S (K (S (K K))) (S (S (K S) (S (K K) I)) (K I))))) (K (K I)))
00:41:06 <jix> took about 40mins
00:41:31 <jix> and i have a program that does it in less than a 1/24 sec
00:42:44 <jix> (if anyone tells you something he saw took less than 1/(>24) second he lies)
00:46:06 -!- {^Raven^} has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
00:46:50 -!- {^Raven^} has joined.
00:52:32 <jix> but i'm getting faster
00:52:32 -!- kipple_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
00:52:43 <jix> and i don't need the translation table anymore
00:55:08 <jix> did (?x y z.x z y) => (S (S (K S) (S (K K) (S (K S) (S (S (K S) (S (K K) I)) (K I))))) (K (S (K K) I))) in 10 mins
01:11:08 <jix> Y => (S (S (S (K S) (S (K K) I)) (K (S I I))) (S (S (K S) (S (K K) I)) (K (S I I))))
01:28:34 -!- jix has quit ("Bitte waehlen Sie eine Beerdigungnachricht").
01:55:19 -!- vbnz has joined.
01:55:48 -!- vbnz has quit (SendQ exceeded).
01:55:49 -!- vbnz has joined.
02:02:43 -!- ZeroOne_ has joined.
02:04:58 -!- ZeroOne has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net).
02:04:58 -!- cmeme has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net).
02:05:23 -!- cmeme has joined.
02:10:07 -!- ZeroOne has joined.
02:14:26 -!- int-e has joined.
02:17:58 -!- ZeroOne has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)).
02:45:22 -!- vbnz has quit (SendQ exceeded).
02:45:22 -!- vbnz has joined.
03:26:52 -!- heatsink has joined.
03:28:54 -!- vbnz has quit ("Eject! Eject! Eject!").
03:40:25 -!- calamari has joined.
03:52:08 <calamari> trying to decide what my webpage generator markup will look like
03:52:54 <int-e> ++[+>-]<< Some text here >>[+<-]--
03:59:35 <calamari> that might get too confusing :)
03:59:53 <calamari> although maybe I should check out xml
05:27:48 -!- heatsink has quit ("Leaving").
05:42:56 -!- fizzie has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net).
05:43:03 -!- fizzie has joined.
05:51:13 -!- int-e has quit ("Bye!").
06:43:53 -!- calamari has quit ("Leaving").
07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended).
08:00:00 -!- clog has joined.
09:00:03 -!- pgimeno has quit (Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)).
09:04:00 -!- pgimeno has joined.
09:21:59 -!- fizzie has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net).
09:22:29 -!- fizzie has joined.
09:25:38 -!- fizzie has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net).
09:47:29 -!- fizzie has joined.
10:04:53 -!- kipple__ has joined.
11:30:40 -!- jix has joined.
11:48:07 -!- kipple__ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
13:45:21 -!- Keymaker has joined.
13:46:32 <Keymaker> i got an idea for esoteric language
13:47:22 <Keymaker> although, i got the idea long time ago
13:49:52 <Keymaker> well, haven't thought it much after that either
13:49:58 <jix> S I is equivalent to (S (K (S I)) (S (S (K S) (S (K K) I)) (K I)))
13:51:12 <Keymaker> the language is based on weather reports
13:51:29 <Keymaker> and programs look like some strange weather reports
13:51:56 * Keymaker throws keyboard through window
13:52:29 <jix> you can't type now
13:52:39 <jix> that was stupid
13:54:16 <Keymaker> i'm somehow strangely frustrated today.. i hate computers today.. rgghhhh
13:54:28 <Keymaker> or well, i've never liked the actual machinery
13:57:42 <jix> <mul> is (S (S (K S) (S (K K) (S (K S) (S (K K) I)))) (K (S (S (K S) (S (K K) I)) (K I))))
13:57:51 <jix> of course done by hand
14:23:30 <Keymaker> i finally got around updating trigger homepage; http://koti.mbnet.fi/yiap/trigger/trigger.html ..
14:23:47 <Keymaker> i added new version of 99bob and a char2bin converter
14:29:27 -!- jix has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep").
14:46:31 -!- int-e has joined.
15:36:20 -!- fungebob has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
15:53:50 -!- jix has joined.
16:34:32 -!- pgimeno has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)).
16:49:44 -!- pgimeno has joined.
17:06:54 <Keymaker> well, felt asleep for two and a half hours.. glad nothing happened here :)
17:07:41 <Keymaker> i should sleep longer at night time..
17:08:54 -!- ineiros has joined.
17:17:16 <jix> Keymaker: nooooo don't sleep at night time.. everyone else sleeps at night time.. so you don't have to.
17:18:32 <jix> at school time i often fall asleep for an hour.. sometimes after school sometimes IN school
17:18:59 <jix> math lessens are boring..
17:19:29 <Keymaker> well, everything's boring. except philosophy :)
17:19:48 <jix> no math isn't boring.. only math lessons in school
17:19:58 <Keymaker> glad there's only about six months of this current school left..
17:20:17 <jix> hmm music isn't boring
17:20:58 <jix> "gemeinschaftskunde" isn't that boring
17:23:08 <jix> np: Flogging Molly - queen annes revenge [ Within a mile of home ]
17:23:14 <jix> i love that song
17:23:49 <jix> huh... well what kind of music flogging molly...
17:24:50 <Keymaker> by the way, as a german you probably hear a lot of germantechno and -trance there?
17:26:34 <jix> i don't like techno/trance
17:27:05 <jix> i hear german punk
17:29:12 <jix> hmm iTunes says it's Folk/Punk (Flogging molly).. that fits.. but you have to hear it to know what it is
17:32:29 <jix> and they use a lot of instruments that arn't often used for punk...Banjo, Bodhran, Spoons, Fiddle, Tin Whistle, Uilleann Pipes,Accordion, Concertina,Mandolin, Banjo, Bazouki, Mandola
17:32:45 <jix> i don't even know all of them
17:33:48 -!- ineiros has quit ("leaving").
17:34:13 * jix is installing latex on his machine
17:35:52 <jix> on some webpage there was "If you see the nick latex^queen on irc do you think of typesetting?" and i thought yes of course?! then i realized that latex^queen may have nothing to do with LaTeX
17:36:47 <Keymaker> i hope it has nothing to do with LaTeX x)
17:45:22 -!- pgimeno has changed nick to latex^queen.
17:45:49 -!- Keymaker has left (?).
17:46:04 <latex^queen> some time ago it was harder to find LaTeX-related references on google
17:47:02 <latex^queen> you had to add 'tex' and hope that keyword was present in the pages you wanted to find
17:47:52 * latex^queen is trying to find an HTML to TeX converter
17:49:10 <fizzie> html2latex.sourceforge.net and all that.
17:49:13 <latex^queen> there's little written in non-esoteric languages
17:50:00 <latex^queen> I'm trying to install that one but it fails on 'make test'
17:51:41 <latex^queen> maybe I finally stick to sed + manual conversion
17:54:17 -!- latex^queen has changed nick to pgimeno.
18:19:24 <pgimeno> heh, nice paradox: Frans Faase has written a converter in a non-esoteric language
18:22:06 <fizzie> "'make test' failed in 0.9, which could be a major headache for some people."
18:23:17 <pgimeno> well, not sure the version of HTML::Latex
18:23:21 -!- calamari has joined.
18:23:57 <pgimeno> it's giving me a strange warning: 'comparison is always true' because it compares if an unsigned char is <= 255
18:24:26 <pgimeno> strange in the sense that why should that be a warning (without -Wall at least)
18:26:05 <pgimeno> and there may be architectures where MAX_UCHAR > 255
18:26:32 <pgimeno> or am I wrong here? I'm no expert in the C89 standard
18:27:10 <int-e> well, it's still unlikely that you want a non-effective comparison in your code ... I think it's ok to warn about that.
18:29:55 <pgimeno> I agree for -Wall, I just think this one is a bit... insignificant? for it to be active by default
18:37:12 <int-e> Hmm, I disagree that it's insignificant, but there seems to be no way to turn this warning off (except by disabling all warnings) - at least in gcc 3.4.2, which is bad.
18:38:55 <calamari> hmm.. just thought of a bit-variant.. wonder how close to TC it is
18:39:39 <calamari> commands: > = [>], @ = invert bit, if 1->0, then invert next bit (etc)
18:41:52 <int-e> @ is basically [>]+<[-<]> if the cell to the left of the pointer is 0.
18:43:49 <int-e> hmm. but you need loops, too. and probably a way to move the pointer left.
18:44:11 <calamari> I was thinking that the pointer would never need to move left
18:46:48 <int-e> I'm pretty sure that's wrong. right now you can model your machine as a single register machine with an increment (@) and a strange operation that divides by 2 repeatedly as long as the register's contents is odd.
18:48:48 <calamari> hmm.. > seems redundant, since @ is enough to eventually build any state
18:49:11 -!- {^Raven^} has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
18:49:50 <int-e> another thing to note is that all bits to the left of the pointer are 1 - and can not be accessed any more.
18:50:04 -!- {^Raven^} has joined.
18:51:47 <calamari> I wonder if adding < is enough
18:52:29 <calamari> so now all cells can be accessed
18:53:04 <calamari> maybe not enough for computation, tho.. :)
18:58:04 -!- calamari has quit ("Leaving").
20:40:14 -!- prf has joined.
20:58:57 -!- {^Raven^} has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
21:00:02 -!- {^Raven^} has joined.
21:31:32 -!- CXI has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
21:32:15 -!- CXI has joined.
21:55:51 -!- kipple__ has joined.
21:57:00 -!- pgimeno has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net).
21:57:31 -!- pgimeno has joined.
22:04:15 -!- calamari has joined.
22:43:55 -!- Keymaker has joined.
22:48:16 <Keymaker> talking about jumping/loops.. is it necessary for a turing-complete language to have more than one loop?
22:48:56 <kipple__> you mean that a program cannot have more than one loop?
22:49:14 -!- kipple__ has changed nick to kipple.
22:49:51 <Keymaker> i thought it was something like while stuff in c
22:50:00 <int-e> a loop a loop a loop a loop a loop a loop a loop a loop a loop a loop a loop
22:50:05 <kipple> he's just joking with you
22:50:46 <int-e> that depends on the concepts employed
22:51:07 <int-e> if you have some infinite program storage and a way to modify it, loops may not be necessary
22:51:30 <int-e> if you have high level operations like 'execute my data on a turing machine' you also don't need loops
22:52:23 <int-e> but normally I'd consider loops (or an equivalent concept like recursion) to be necessary.
22:52:54 <Keymaker> not that i've planned anything, just thought..
22:53:44 <kipple> I think there are some esolangs where there is only one loop, but I can't remember which
22:54:27 <kipple> seem to remember something about every program being looped until some condition occurs
22:56:05 <int-e> Keymaker (re: at all?): if you can append to your program faster than you execute it, this could work.
22:56:06 <kipple> but couldn't it be done through self-modification?
22:56:52 <kipple> I think we're onto the same idea int-e :)
22:59:17 <kipple> but, of course, the code copying is pretty much like a loop
23:01:33 <Keymaker> it's amazing how many languages cpressey has made up
23:04:16 <kipple> Keymaker: is Trigger your lang?
23:04:38 <kipple> there is no article for it in the wiki
23:05:01 <Keymaker> http://koti.mbnet.fi/yiap/trigger/trigger.html
23:05:25 <Keymaker> i tried once making an article about it to esowiki, but couldn't make it clear enough
23:05:53 <kipple> a stub with a link to that web page would be better than nothing at least :)
23:06:25 <Keymaker> kipple: have you tried trigger yet?
23:06:43 <kipple> looked a bit a udage, but the spec was hard to read
23:06:49 <kipple> but I like the concept
23:07:09 <Keymaker> yes, as you can see from the spec i got the idea from udage
23:07:27 <kipple> what? only 256 bits memory :D
23:07:42 <Keymaker> i'm sick of those turing tarpits
23:09:01 <Keymaker> anyways, i couldn't make the spec any more clear :9
23:09:30 <kipple> I think a short list of the commands would be nice
23:09:46 <Keymaker> there are no commands, you see
23:09:57 <Keymaker> it's all about patterns that are commands :9
23:10:41 <Keymaker> and in jump case two same characters and an argument character, like rr*
23:10:56 <Keymaker> that i can do to esowiki article
23:12:07 <kipple> hey! it's non-deterministic as well :) at least partlly
23:12:55 <Keymaker> or well, don't know is non-deterministic right word
23:13:02 <kipple> yes. but since you can avoid it, I guess it would qualify as deterministic
23:13:03 <Keymaker> i'm confused of all random, non-deterministic etc..
23:13:31 <kipple> but a nice way to include a random function
23:14:33 <kipple> what do you mean by this: "Trigger uses UNIX new-line (dec 10)."
23:14:44 <kipple> aren't newlines treated as variables too?
23:15:00 <Keymaker> three dec 10s in row prints a new-line
23:15:43 <kipple> so, on Windows three #10s would print #13#10 ?
23:16:53 <Keymaker> if you'd like to make a windows new-line you would need 13 13 13 10 10 10
23:17:26 <kipple> ok. but then I don't get what's the point with saying it uses UNIX new-line.
23:17:42 <Keymaker> well, my writings often have no point
23:18:00 <kipple> the same could be said about many esolangs :)
23:18:34 <kipple> anyways, the wiki now has 3 languages in the Non-textual category. We need more!
23:19:39 <Keymaker> what non-textual really means?
23:20:04 <Keymaker> ok.. but then doesn't fugue have text sources?
23:20:14 <kipple> no, at least not in theory
23:20:49 <kipple> though it has no implementation
23:21:17 <Keymaker> hmm.. non-textual langs are interesting
23:21:35 <kipple> hehe. maybe I should make en interpreter for fugue that I can plug my guitar into :D
23:22:06 <kipple> I also find them interesting. especially since they are so rare
23:22:18 <kipple> and NULL is only barely non-textual
23:23:12 <Keymaker> yes.. too bad i don't get the null.. i can't understand it
23:23:41 <jix> Keymaker: it works with prime-factors
23:24:15 <Keymaker> i see that from wiki article but i don't still get it..
23:25:22 <jix> i know how it works but i don't know how to program with it
23:25:43 <Keymaker> :) if someone could make a program that prints 'A' and would explain it perhaps then i'd get it
23:25:58 <jix> int-e: converting lambda-terms to CL-terms by hand is fun
23:27:06 <Keymaker> kipple: here's one idea for graphical 2d language
23:28:16 <Keymaker> each pixel would have some rgb value, where r could be instruction, g some memory value, and b -- no idea
23:28:50 <Keymaker> so, the memory program could use would be stored in the program itself
23:29:08 <Keymaker> naturally the values could be changed during execution
23:29:27 <int-e> jix: you're weird. one of the first things I did was to write a tool for doing that. *g*
23:29:27 <kipple> then you could see the picture chaning during execution
23:29:42 <Keymaker> hehe, that kind of interpreter would be very neat!
23:30:09 <kipple> how about that being the only kind of output :)
23:30:35 <Keymaker> would get quite hard to make any visible messages
23:30:45 <jix> rgb is to common for an esoteric language
23:31:15 <kipple> both g and b could be values. then you could have instructions with two arguments
23:31:35 <jix> but yes rgb is ok
23:31:36 <kipple> and then you could easily modify pixels elsewhere
23:32:00 <Keymaker> yeah, maybe g and b both being arguments is good, like you said kipple
23:32:08 <jix> there is a instruction-component pointer which says what is insturction (R G or B)
23:32:35 <Keymaker> what is instruction-component?
23:32:41 <jix> if ICP == R red is instruction green is arg1 blue arg 2
23:32:58 <jix> if ICP == G green is instruction blue is....
23:33:28 <jix> kipple: with 1 dimension limited to (1..3)
23:33:44 <kipple> you could of course add more
23:34:04 <jix> but alpha = 0 is stupid because it hides rg and b
23:34:11 <jix> ultra-violet
23:34:18 <kipple> int-e: octarine is a great idea!
23:34:27 <kipple> the first magical programming language
23:35:00 <kipple> just having octarine would make it Turing Complete in itself :)
23:35:11 <int-e> jix: It's the eights color of the rainbow, the magical color.
23:35:19 <jix> the rainbow has 9 colors
23:35:27 <jix> don't you see them?
23:35:30 <int-e> It's only visible in strong magical fields. (Read some Terry Pratchett :)
23:35:40 <int-e> the rainbow has many colors.
23:36:02 <Keymaker> :) well, perhaps this is some reference to some book that i have no idea about..
23:36:02 <kipple> it's a fictional color from the Discworld book series
23:36:06 <jix> int-e: i red one and i'm going to read more..(i still have one at home unred)
23:36:20 <kipple> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Octarine#Octarine
23:36:23 <int-e> jix, it's pronounced 'red', but it's spelled 'read' :)
23:36:53 <int-e> should've thought of wikipedia.
23:37:22 <jix> int-e: knaw i hate spelling....
23:37:46 <int-e> I was just trying to be helpful :(
23:38:00 <jix> int-e: yeah feel free to correct me...
23:41:49 <kipple> writing a program in such a language would be difficult, unless you have a nice IDE though
23:41:52 <GregorR> The rainbow has infinite colors, it's a gradient, not several independent color entities :P
23:42:21 <jix> GregorR: yes but it's a gardient with 9 keys that are interpolated...
23:42:32 <kipple> but Newton was a bit of mystic and decided that we have 7
23:43:20 <Keymaker> what could be good instructions
23:43:26 <int-e> GregorR, hmm, wasn't there an energy quantum and thus a finite number of different wavelengths in a rainbow?
23:43:39 <jix> Keymaker: i think over-complicated instructions would be cool instead of simple ones like bf's
23:43:59 <Keymaker> well, perhaps, but it'd be nice to get something actually done
23:44:08 <kipple> yeah. I've thought of doing a lang where all the instructions have a ton of side effects :=
23:44:20 <jix> like take a value from x-3 y+4 and add 4 and multiple it with the x+7 y-2 xor 12 and produce a beep
23:44:22 <kipple> but perhaps not in this one :) it's gonna be hard enough as it is
23:44:50 <Keymaker> i'd like simple, "efficient", visual programming language
23:45:40 <jix> ok but it shouldn't be that minimalistic
23:45:48 <jix> it should have powerfull math features
23:46:12 <kipple> a set instructions to manipulate the IP, a set of instructions to manipulate the pixels
23:46:15 <jix> from cos..e^x...a/b
23:46:57 <calamari> cos/sin would be nice for making circles
23:47:18 <calamari> or you could just use lookup tables ;)
23:47:48 <Keymaker> i think the IP should be befunge like
23:47:57 <jix> ok but it should have one 100% useless very complex function i'm going to design now
23:48:10 <jix> Keymaker: i think it should use reflection (\ and /)
23:48:32 <int-e> jix: try 'expand power series' and take the coefficients from a straight line ...
23:48:40 <int-e> jix: that's powerful and hard to use ;)
23:48:56 <jix> uhm i don't understand it
23:49:05 <jix> maybe i don't know the english expressions
23:49:29 <int-e> what I mean are functions defined as f(x) = sum(i=0 to infinity) a_i*x^i
23:49:35 <int-e> the a_i are the coefficients
23:49:40 <Keymaker> to get all the features we want, perhaps we need to get to separate languages (the udage-trigger style)
23:50:00 <Keymaker> i at least will work on simple befunge like rgb thing
23:50:22 <jix> Keymaker: i like that too
23:50:55 <jix> i'd suggest writing the interpreter in c+sdl that's portable and fast
23:51:00 <jix> but first we need a spec
23:51:29 <jix> do we have a stack?
23:51:34 <kipple> if you're going with rgb then each value is only 8bit
23:51:35 <jix> or registers
23:51:56 <kipple> we don't need stacks or registers. the image is the storage
23:52:11 <kipple> unless you want turing completeness
23:52:28 <Keymaker> there could be infinite "canvas"
23:52:40 <Keymaker> that the picture is only part of it, place on right top corner
23:52:54 <Keymaker> the other values all having either random values or 0s or 255s
23:53:35 <jix> i have a cool memory adressing idea.. it's possible to adress many values with only 1 byte
23:53:40 <jix> with a spiral
23:54:06 <Keymaker> well, the language was supposed to be simple to use :)
23:54:12 <jix> it's simple
23:54:30 <jix> where P is the current IP
23:54:49 <jix> you just start moving right and walk around the center in a spiral
23:55:16 <Keymaker> i was just imagining other kind of spiral
23:55:43 <jix> hmm 0 could be the current instruction for easy self modification
23:56:20 <pgimeno> if it's going to have infinite canvas, it probably needs a separate data pointer or self-modification
23:56:31 <jix> pgimeno: self-modification
23:56:32 <calamari> how about something like sokoban where you move blocks around?
23:56:50 <jix> or infinite data pointer...
23:57:04 <jix> but the instruction that moves DP should use spiral-offsets
23:57:26 <pgimeno> otherwise the data access will be trapped, just as in Bitxtreme
23:57:49 <Keymaker> so it needs separate data pointer..?
23:58:26 <jix> yes with inifinite size
23:58:34 <pgimeno> either that or self-modification, otherwise infinite size is pointless
23:59:06 <jix> yes but that makes it very hard
23:59:14 <jix> but well it's possible
23:59:37 <pgimeno> it can copy regions instead of cells
23:59:47 <jix> pgimeno: ack ack ack!
23:59:51 <jix> brilliant idea