2005-08-01: 00:23:55 -!- kipple has joined. 00:34:06 -!- heatsink has joined. 00:40:39 -!- calamari has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 01:42:20 -!- jix has left (?). 05:03:02 -!- calamari has joined. 05:11:34 -!- kipple has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 07:30:21 -!- calamari has quit ("Leaving"). 07:32:39 -!- heatsink has quit ("Leaving"). 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 10:04:35 -!- grimace_ has joined. 10:05:03 lo all 10:56:14 lo 10:56:15 hmh 10:57:01 the free www.brainfuck.tk forwarding address I had for http://koti.mbnet.fi/villes/php/bf.php was cancelled due to low traffic. :p 11:10:12 -!- jix has joined. 11:10:37 moin 12:47:32 -!- kipple has joined. 13:17:34 <{^Raven^}> ZeroOne: what about using cjb.net? 13:22:27 {^Raven^}: for what? 13:24:28 the free www.brainfuck.tk forwarding address I had for http://koti.mbnet.fi/villes/php/bf.php was cancelled due to low traffic. :p 13:28:10 let's face it, Brainfuck does not attract a huge sector of public 13:31:38 maybe things change when jix releases his compiler and people realize that writing BF languages does not mean that execution is slow? :P 13:31:50 s/languages/programs/ 14:18:35 pgimeno: it is released 14:20:29 oh, I thought you wanted to do some more optimizations to it 14:22:29 it's alpha-released 15:17:42 <{^Raven^}> jix: for a forwarding address 15:30:29 -!- CXI has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 15:30:38 -!- CXI has joined. 17:19:54 -!- int-e has joined. 17:19:55 -!- kipple has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 17:37:57 -!- calamari has joined. 17:44:02 hi 17:45:19 look at the right picture: http://www.redhat.com/ 17:46:12 -!- int-e has quit (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)). 17:46:47 -!- klutzy has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 17:48:02 jix: ??? 17:51:17 -!- yrz\werk_ has joined. 17:55:16 calamari: the map 17:55:22 take a look at the map 17:55:25 what about it 17:55:56 you don't see it...? ;) 17:56:03 I see the map 17:56:15 yes but you don't see what's funny about it? 17:56:33 no, is it a geography error? 17:57:00 well the card is ~15years old 17:57:08 it has west-germany and the DDR ^^ 17:57:27 hehe 17:57:36 redhat -- always up-to-date 17:57:38 I am an ignorant American ;) 17:58:34 hrhr 17:58:51 although, I wonder if you'd notice a United States map error? 18:00:59 Wow, three businesses in the Oregon Territory use RedHat! 18:02:01 -!- yrz\werk has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 18:02:42 Hmm, would it be funnier if the star was in communist East Germany? 18:03:38 -!- int-e has joined. 18:09:16 -!- int-e has quit (Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)). 18:10:27 -!- int-e has joined. 18:20:57 -!- int-e has quit (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)). 18:29:24 -!- int-e has joined. 18:29:39 -!- grimace__ has joined. 18:29:41 Hi/re/re/re. I hope my ISP doesn't disconnect me again this time. 18:31:36 int-e: Hoi; jix: thanks for that link, that is now hanging proudly on my cubicle wall :P 18:35:44 -!- grimace__ has left (?). 18:39:05 Hmm, should we send RH an email starting with "Hey morons," 18:40:29 uh 18:40:33 why? 18:43:18 hi int-e 18:45:16 GregorR: RH? 18:45:26 -!- grimace_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 18:51:36 bbl 18:51:37 int-e: On the main page they have a picture representing their international business with a map from the cold war era (with West and East Germany) 18:51:37 -!- calamari has quit ("Leaving"). 18:51:42 lindi-: RH = RedHat. 18:52:29 (This was a conversation from about 40 minutes ago) 18:52:42 ah 18:52:45 aaaaaaaaaah :) 19:03:09 GregorR: not war... after the war... 19:03:10 -!- pgimeno has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 19:03:38 1. there was the 2nd world war than there was BDR and DDR 19:03:43 BRD 19:03:44 typo 19:06:29 -!- {^Raven^} has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 19:08:01 -!- {^Raven^} has joined. 19:14:17 jix: he wrote 'cold war' 19:20:42 oh 19:20:54 i should read what other people write ^^ 19:21:48 i always ignore the last word in front of a line break... 19:29:07 -!- kipple_ has joined. 19:35:06 -!- yrz\werk has joined. 19:36:57 -!- BigZaphod has joined. 19:38:07 -!- int-e has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 19:47:04 -!- yrz\werk_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 19:51:11 -!- lindi- has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 20:02:16 -!- lindi- has joined. 20:13:32 -!- pgimeno has joined. 20:24:41 -!- int-e has joined. 21:12:24 -!- yrz\werk has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 21:13:44 -!- yrz\werk has joined. 23:00:32 -!- calamari has joined. 23:01:10 hello 23:02:50 moin calamari 23:08:09 -!- jix has quit ("Bitte waehlen Sie eine Beerdigungnachricht"). 23:23:58 ¡Hola señors! 23:24:26 (Probably not correct Español :P) 23:43:52 hola amigo, como estas? 23:52:06 Estoy bueno, pero es . ¿Y tu? 23:52:52 cansado.. 23:54:30 ¿Qué hora es por tu? (Almost certainly wrong) 23:54:52 what was that command for utf8 ? :) 23:55:12 Heheh 23:55:25 I got: a?qua(c) hora 23:55:30 I use the compose key, alt-e-' = é 23:55:52 That's a mite odd. 23:55:58 and I see a iso 8859-1 representation of that. 23:56:13 it looks ugly :) 23:56:52 lol 23:57:06 it's 4pm 23:57:43 same as you, iirc :) 23:57:53 calamari: Where are you? 23:58:05 Tucson Arizona 23:58:31 Portland, OR here. 23:58:53 8am here 23:59:04 Portland, OR, USA, Earth, Sol, Milky Way to be specific. 23:59:10 GregorR: did you see my fyb report script? 23:59:39 int-e: Yeah, but I haven't managed to rebuild my interest in FYB enough to integrate it into the main archive yet :P 23:59:52 what's the name of our galactic cluster? 23:59:54 hehe 23:59:56 fine with me 2005-08-02: 00:00:21 calamari: I think it's some boring scientific name. 00:00:27 I couldn't build up the energy to change the wiki page to that table either ... 00:00:33 ;) 00:00:34 Like UDF-8037.9 00:00:47 I wouldn't doubt it.. lets see if I can find it 00:01:20 What's the name of our universe? Is it just Universe? 00:01:53 Prediction: Despite the meaning of the word "universe", if we find that there are parallel dimensions, we will still call each one a different "universe" 00:01:59 the Milky Way is part of the "Local Group" 00:02:51 That's even lamer than some scientific name! 00:03:20 and that's part of the "Virgo Supercluster" 00:03:25 so is "Milky Way" 00:03:56 puzzlet: BUt the term "Milky Way" has such a bizarre, humans-are-idiots history 8-D 00:04:11 well, the moon is made of cheese. 00:04:19 and where does cheese come from? 00:04:40 I don't care, I hate cheese. 00:04:53 more for me then. 00:04:54 hehe 00:05:14 * GregorR blasphemes the name of the Great Cheese God. 00:12:12 <{^Raven^}> our universe is part of the multiverse, beyond that i'm not sure there is any terminology available 00:26:34 That is not the original definition of the word multiverse, and is a corruption of both words :P 00:27:22 "Universe" was supposed to mean /everything/, no matter how much that is, whether it be multiple dimensions or parallel existances or whatnot. 00:27:32 IMHO 00:27:56 Hence I suppose my previous prediction has already come true :P 00:29:39 -!- BigZaphod has quit. 00:41:34 by "everything" do you include the set of all sets that do not contain themselves? :) 00:42:41 Yes. And then I disappear in a puff of logic smoke. Green one. 00:45:37 * GregorR 's head explodes. 00:45:55 I was referring to physical existance. But I'm unsure whether that changes the paradox. 00:48:39 You know what I hate? The phrase "life as we know it." Every time somebody wants to argue against the theory of evolution, they use the phrase "life as we know it" hence completely invalidating their argument. 00:50:10 Or rather, argue against non-divine abiogenesis. 01:03:16 -!- calamari has quit ("Leaving"). 01:06:47 paradoxes don't matter to reality. 01:17:43 -!- kipple__ has joined. 01:17:43 -!- kipple_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 01:29:30 -!- BigZaphod has joined. 02:07:26 -!- BigZaphod has quit. 02:12:25 -!- BigZaphod has joined. 02:12:36 -!- BigZaphod has quit (Client Quit). 03:38:35 <{^Raven^}> GregorR: Do you find the term Omniverse acceptable or vulgar? 03:47:07 -!- kipple__ has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 04:10:27 -!- int-e has left (?). 04:18:34 -!- cmeme has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 04:19:54 -!- cmeme has joined. 04:20:00 -!- cmeme has quit (Remote closed the connection). 04:20:43 -!- cmeme has joined. 07:53:26 {^Raven^}: I don't find any of them vulgar. Omni- means all, and hence should also encompass everything. But the problem is that there's no such term that's elastic. What they should do is, when they discover something bigger, label THAT the omniverse, then label what WAS the omniverse something else. 07:53:48 IMO 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 09:47:05 -!- grimace_ has joined. 10:55:14 -!- J|x has joined. 11:23:17 -!- J|x has changed nick to jix. 11:32:10 <{^Raven^}> Gregor: I agree 11:33:14 moin 11:33:17 {^Raven^}: to what? 11:37:41 <{^Raven^}> Definition if Universe and if/what is the larger entitity and terminology use 11:39:16 -!- kipple__ has joined. 14:35:45 -!- tokigun has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 14:35:50 -!- tokigun has joined. 15:59:38 -!- int-e has joined. 16:39:50 -!- yrz\werk_ has joined. 16:45:57 -!- Keymaker has joined. 16:46:06 'ello 16:47:28 question; can i be connected to other places than irc.freenode.net at the same time? 16:47:38 (not that i'd had any other channel anyways..) 16:53:28 keymaker: your irc client should allow it... 16:53:44 try /connect 16:55:07 -!- yrz\werk has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 16:59:54 thanks. i'm too lazy to try it since i don't have the need, but i was just curious. 17:28:29 Pff, who goes anywhere but freenode anyway :P 17:28:46 DALnet? DALnet?! Putz on DALnet!! 17:30:04 i'm on euirc and freenode 17:31:12 It's juuuuust feasable that I was being sarcastic :) 17:32:06 it is? 17:32:12 hmm never thought about that... 17:34:00 but yes it could be possible 17:35:34 -!- kipple__ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 17:35:50 -!- kipple_ has joined. 17:35:56 wb kipple_ 17:45:09 hmm. 4 irc servers here. 17:45:11 hehe 17:47:25 -!- calamari has joined. 17:57:15 windows is great 17:57:23 it's the best operating system 18:01:02 okay 18:02:19 and it's secure 18:02:49 jix, are you bored? 18:02:53 no 18:03:08 i'm working on my webpage 18:03:23 i think i'll rewrite it using Visual Basic .NET 18:03:58 * int-e remembers what channel he's on. 18:04:10 because that's mircosoft compatible and that is very important for everyone 18:04:13 Sure go on. 18:04:23 Wahahahahahahaha 18:04:48 i just had to laugh... 18:05:42 yes. Mad scientists usually do that. 18:07:21 do mad scientists tell other people the opposite of their own opinion? 18:07:34 if they do, i think i'm one 18:08:25 Well, it depends on the scientist and the people, but inconsistency is part of the job, yes. 18:09:05 I mean how are you supposed to stop a determined, logically thinking mad scientist? He has to make mistakes sometimes, otherwise the 'good guys' wouldn't win at the end. 18:25:26 actually the good guys never win. 18:25:35 that reminds me.. need to download Mono for my fall C# class 18:25:41 there's a mad scientist conspiracy to make it seem like they do. 18:25:57 -!- grimace_ has left (?). 19:04:12 -!- calamari has quit ("Leaving"). 19:10:00 bye 19:10:02 -!- Keymaker has quit ("I've seen this dj vu before.."). 19:17:01 lament: psss... don't tell them about it 19:22:40 -!- int-e has quit ("Bye!"). 19:25:40 jix: lament has leaked the secret, now he must be killed. 19:25:52 * GregorR dons his ritualistic mask and coke-bottle classes. 20:06:14 -!- calamari has joined. 21:10:40 pshhh... 21:10:40 -!- kipple_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 21:31:59 -!- {^Wolfie^} has joined. 21:32:22 -!- {^Wolfie^} has changed nick to Wolfie. 21:32:36 -!- Wolfie has changed nick to _Wolfie_. 21:48:12 -!- {^Raven^} has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 21:57:47 -!- jix has quit ("Bitte waehlen Sie eine Beerdigungnachricht"). 23:58:28 Those of you who were looking at the stupid ad on www.redhat.com yesterday, look again XD 2005-08-03: 00:01:22 hahaha 00:16:53 Now they live in a utopia with no political rivalries 8-D 00:17:55 -!- calamari has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 01:33:13 -!- calamari has joined. 01:57:02 -!- kipple_ has joined. 02:01:45 -!- calamari has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 02:35:05 -!- Gs30ng has joined. 02:36:41 i feel helpless 02:37:34 the lang i designed is stupid indeed 02:38:14 heh 02:38:29 how could i think i need a stupid operation like 'nandn1'? 02:39:08 since i have bitwise NOT and conditional jump, i don't need any NAND thing 02:39:43 damn i would rather... 02:39:46 * Gs30ng explodes!!! 02:44:13 -!- calamari has joined. 02:52:37 -!- kipple_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 03:20:27 -!- int-e has joined. 05:11:09 -!- int-e has quit ("Bye!"). 06:55:26 -!- Gs30ng has quit ("to reboot"). 07:01:53 -!- calamari_ has joined. 07:14:34 -!- calamari has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 07:55:44 -!- calamari_ has quit ("Leaving"). 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:01:31 i've changed the design of my esolang page. http://dev.tokigun.net/esolang/index_en.php 08:01:34 looks good? :) 08:03:09 Gregor's opinion on design is irrelevent. 08:03:17 That being said, yeah ;) 10:03:51 -!- sp3tt has joined. 10:21:37 -!- Gs30ng has joined. 10:27:05 -!- sp3tt has quit (Client Quit). 10:44:45 -!- kipple_ has joined. 11:02:25 -!- sp3tt has joined. 11:20:47 -!- kipple_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 11:48:41 -!- kipple_ has joined. 12:18:06 -!- int-e has joined. 12:20:01 . 12:20:15 err Hi 12:24:11 lo 12:53:03 -!- jix has joined. 15:47:58 -!- yrz\werk has joined. 16:04:03 -!- yrz\werk_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 17:25:47 -!- yrz\werk_ has joined. 17:39:37 -!- yrz\werk has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 17:51:18 -!- calamari has joined. 17:51:46 hi 18:47:09 hrm.. input seems to be resetting on step/run, bug :( 18:49:05 -!- calamari has quit ("Leaving"). 18:52:05 -!- GregorR-L has joined. 18:52:24 Here I am in the OSCon session for the wold's foremost esoteric language. 18:52:26 Perl. 18:53:21 s//{}/;eval's/{/{$_/;'x ord(getc);print 18:53:23 hehe 18:57:20 -!- GregorR-L has quit ("Chatzilla 0.9.68.5 [Firefox 1.0.6/20050716]"). 18:58:48 -!- yrz\werk has joined. 19:13:40 -!- yrz\werk_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 20:12:12 -!- int-e has quit (Remote closed the connection). 20:12:42 -!- int-e has joined. 21:08:27 -!- sp3tt has quit (Client Quit). 21:14:00 -!- yrz\werk_ has joined. 21:24:32 -!- yrz\werk has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 21:27:47 -!- yrz\werk has joined. 21:37:42 -!- yrz\werk_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 21:57:05 -!- jix has quit ("Bitte waehlen Sie eine Beerdigungnachricht"). 21:58:01 -!- kipple_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 22:20:49 -!- kipple_ has joined. 23:15:38 -!- _Wolfie_ has changed nick to {^Raven^}. 2005-08-04: 00:14:25 -!- pibb has joined. 00:27:55 -!- pibb has left (?). 00:34:45 -!- yrz\werk has quit (Remote closed the connection). 00:35:23 -!- yrz\werk has joined. 01:14:18 -!- calamari has joined. 01:38:26 -!- calamari has quit ("Leaving"). 01:39:22 is there any brainfuck-brother-lang which has many-dimensional memory space? 01:39:48 i think there should be one like that but can't find it 01:40:27 it seems obvious but I know none. it spoils the minimalistic nature of the language 01:41:13 well, what if we can choose the dimension with > and < 01:41:35 why not just make ^ and v operations? 01:42:02 hmm 01:42:14 well, I'm not sure how useful this is. I like brainfuck as it is. 01:43:00 well, we can make it have endless dimensions with approximately 10 instructions 01:43:51 like, each dimension has only 0 and 1 coordinate 01:44:27 it's easier than that with 10 instructions - <> stay as is, */ choose next or previous dimension. 01:44:46 for the <> instructions. 01:45:02 hmm that could work 01:46:47 but i think there already would be the one like that 01:47:07 tons of brothers of brainfuck 01:47:26 Hmm I never really cared. 01:48:47 * int-e wonders if there will ever be an Unlambda 3 01:59:13 Damn i feel like i've once saw something like that in my dream but cannot remember what was that 02:16:41 -!- kipple_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 02:36:45 Gs30ng: hcbf 02:37:30 hcbf 02:38:02 yes 02:38:05 see its wiki entry 02:38:14 ok i'm on it 02:39:07 so it's a bf with 4 dimensional memory space? 02:57:54 hmmmmmmmmmmmm 02:58:00 i really like the idea of 2-dim brainfuck 02:58:05 has it been done before? 02:58:22 it does seem extremely obvious now :) 02:59:05 the nice thing about 2-dim as opposed to 4 or whatever is that it's nice and visual 03:02:25 actually now that i think about it, it has practically no advantages over regular brainfuck. 03:27:21 well i think there's already one with 2-dim memory space 03:27:35 with <, >, ^, v 03:41:48 -!- int-e has quit ("Bye!"). 05:44:04 -!- calamari has joined. 05:45:26 hi 05:46:39 Gs30ng: 99% sure there is already at least a 2-D BF 05:47:16 i'm sure that i saw a bf with 2d memory 05:47:34 oh.. that's different :) 05:47:42 well 05:47:50 didn't read carefully enough.. oops 05:47:50 you meant the code space? 05:47:59 like PATH? 05:48:02 yeah.. looks like Chris already found it? 05:49:15 still i'm not sure that there would be any bf with unbounded dimensions 05:50:12 just like int-e said, introducing 2 instructions choosing next or previous dimension for <> instructions 05:50:41 or we don't even need <> 05:50:47 just @ 05:51:08 since we have unbounded dimensions 05:51:16 yep, but then are you still multidimensional with memory? :) 05:51:30 might as well be a regular 1-d array then 05:51:50 well, an address of a cell could be like 05:51:59 (1, 0, 0, 1, 1, 1, 1, 0, 0, 1, 1) 05:52:04 or something 05:52:18 as far as bf variants goes, brainfork seems interesting 05:52:52 although it seems like the same functionality should be able to be written in pure bf 05:57:05 i'm thinking about multidimensional stack 05:58:37 I was thinking about graph memory the other day 05:58:48 not sure how well that'd work though :) 05:59:13 graph memory 05:59:25 sounds like befunge code space or something 05:59:27 oh sorry.. undirected graph 05:59:54 what's that? 05:59:59 I think there is another term but I've forgotten it 06:00:53 think of a map with cities on it, connected by roads.. the cities are vertices, the edges are roads, the whole thing is a graph 06:01:26 oh 06:02:50 man, smell something burning.. hope that's just the lamp 06:03:14 Brainburn 06:03:29 i would make a lang with that name 06:03:35 I think the lamp just burned a bug.. :) 06:03:50 hehe, that's what you can call your bf variant 06:03:59 can i burrow the lamp? 06:04:02 to debug my codes 06:04:12 nah, no burrowing in my lamp 06:04:16 oops 06:04:17 typo 06:04:29 ;) I know.. just a joke 06:07:28 hmm it stunk... sounds like a huge bug 06:08:34 s/stunk/stank 06:08:52 ...whatever 06:56:16 I think I'll release OBLISK-1.0.5 during OSCon tomorrow. 07:06:06 oscon? 07:06:38 nm, found it 07:10:38 I suppose you're going, since it's near you? :) 07:12:06 * calamari didn't realize Oregon was a big spot for open source.. would have figured some place in California would have created a bigger draw 07:30:11 It would have in 1999. 07:30:26 And I'm only going because I managed to get a free pass, they retail in the 1000s. 07:31:07 so much for open source being cheap, heh 07:47:49 Furthermore, about 60% of the exhibitions are proprietary. 07:47:56 So much for open source being open, eh? 07:48:32 I would contend that that alone is a fantastic reason for promotion of the term Free Software. 07:49:03 I don't think Oracle or Intel would be at FSCon 07:56:43 you can bring a linux cd for the sony playstation and load up the wiki on the big screen hehehe 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 09:08:20 -!- calamari has quit ("Leaving"). 09:58:37 -!- jix has joined. 12:11:37 -!- kipple_ has joined. 12:22:34 * {^Raven^} can browse to the bfwiki site on the PS2 without linux 12:24:01 * {^Raven^} just uses the notwork access disk 13:16:42 -!- yrz\werk_ has joined. 13:19:19 -!- yrz\werk has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 13:26:39 -!- int-e has joined. 13:39:27 * tokigun is waiting for BigZaphod to ask about 3code 14:44:10 -!- yrz\werk has joined. 14:56:24 -!- yrz\werk_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 15:43:21 -!- lament has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 16:18:38 -!- yrz\werk has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 16:23:30 -!- kipple_ has quit ("See you later"). 17:01:03 -!- {^Raven^} has quit ("Leaving"). 17:31:14 -!- Wrrrtbt has joined. 17:31:16 -!- Wrrrtbt has quit (Client Quit). 18:00:45 -!- calamari has joined. 18:04:39 -!- calamari has quit (Remote closed the connection). 18:05:31 -!- calamari has joined. 18:25:56 -!- ramkrsna has joined. 18:40:23 bbiafm 18:40:25 -!- calamari has quit ("Leaving"). 18:47:48 -!- calamari has joined. 18:47:50 re's 18:54:17 -!- yrz\werk has joined. 19:03:11 bbiafm? does the "f" stand for the same as in FVWM? 19:04:13 that's 'be back in a few minutes', apparently 19:04:31 ah 19:23:39 -!- lament has joined. 19:26:42 -!- yrz\werk_ has joined. 19:32:27 hm 19:32:42 it'd be interesting to have a language with no finite datatypes. 19:33:51 perhaps with infinite lists of integers as the only first-class values 19:36:59 or maybe it'd be too much like data-oriented. 19:42:13 -!- yrz\werk has quit (Connection timed out). 19:45:35 lament: it was here afair, and i'm sure you've seen this http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~sgtatham/infinity.html 19:54:53 i haven't 19:55:20 nice, isn't it? 19:55:54 lament: kayak did that, sort of. 19:56:27 well, it has infinite lists of bits as its only datatype. but I'm not sure what you're after 19:58:39 yeah, i guess. 19:59:45 but i was thinking more like haskell-style 19:59:55 [1..] 20:01:08 mtve: i like the time machine idea more 20:01:14 although they're equivalent most likely 20:06:26 (in effect: call a function; if it returns, do one thing; if it fails to halt, do another thing) 20:12:22 if (find_goldbach_counterexample()) == BOTTOM) 20:12:34 puts("Goldbach proven!"); 20:13:28 hum 20:13:43 all function calls are executed by wrapping them in a time machine module that returns the result to the same point in time 20:13:46 (or fails to return) 20:13:52 therefore all function calls are O(1) 20:14:13 and all functions return (but they may return bottom) 20:16:05 this would be a fun extension to add to existing languages. 20:16:10 Once time travel is invented, naturally. 20:17:09 hmm. how do you deal with energy issues? 20:17:25 there might not be enough to send an infinite number of time machines back in time 20:17:44 not to mention the logistic issues of collecting the results - wait - ok, that can be dealt with actually. 20:18:03 collecting results is the easy part 20:18:14 the annoying part is that every time something fails to halt, you lose a time machine 20:18:16 I think I should read Goedel, Escher, Bach again. 20:18:37 -!- yrz\werk_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 20:21:33 i wonder how amusing would be to actually implement that 20:21:55 wait a few seconds for the functions to halt before deciding they don't 20:22:46 how do you make a time machine that's 100% reliable? 20:22:55 hehe 20:23:11 presumably it won't be physical 20:23:17 time travel idea could be reduced to "information transfer back in time", even on a short period of time, and even one bit of information. 20:23:34 yeah. 20:23:45 -!- yrz\werk has joined. 20:23:50 still, if it's physical 20:23:54 perhaps it should not consume energy at all. 20:23:55 the time machine has to contain a computer 20:24:06 that is able to run indefinitely 20:24:13 survive heat death of the universe, etc 20:24:23 so it can't consume energy 20:24:46 perhaps instead of a time machine, you can just ask god 20:24:59 "does this thing halt, and if so, what's the return value?" 20:25:06 call the language Vatican :) 20:25:09 -!- ramkrsna has quit (Remote closed the connection). 20:25:18 then you don't have energy issues 20:25:34 although perhaps possible faith issues 20:28:02 machine, computer, too complicated. maybe it's just some particle that can travel back in time in a short range, and an emitter plus an absorber. looks more realistic to me :) 20:30:04 with only one bit you still can get more bits thru overlapping "travels". then you can greatly reduce classes of problems. let's say all modern crypto would collapse and so on. 20:38:39 information hiding would become pointless anyway 20:43:41 like it isn't already. 22:02:37 -!- Keymaker has joined. 22:02:49 hello worrrrrrld 22:03:38 tokigun: good job with the new esoteric section of your page 22:14:11 well; bye. 22:14:13 -!- Keymaker has quit ("I've seen this dj vu before.."). 22:21:28 heh 22:51:44 -!- calamari_ has joined. 23:04:15 -!- calamari has quit (Connection timed out). 23:49:30 -!- pgimeno has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 23:49:52 -!- pgimeno has joined. 23:57:08 -!- {^Raven^} has joined. 23:57:08 -!- {^Raven^} has quit (Client Quit). 23:59:20 -!- {^Raven^} has joined. 2005-08-05: 00:01:29 <{^Raven^}> hullo peeps and peepettes 00:03:47 -!- jix has left (?). 01:17:43 -!- yrz\werk has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 01:22:14 -!- int-e has left (?). 02:49:32 -!- calamari has joined. 03:06:17 -!- calamari_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 03:26:49 -!- calamari has quit 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15:29:37 -!- cmeme has quit ("Client terminated by server"). 15:30:19 -!- cmeme has joined. 16:06:22 <{^Raven^}> is it just me or have there been a *lot* of netsplits recently? 16:30:32 well i haven't seen anything like that 16:30:51 maybe you can check the chat log 17:03:56 -!- calamari has joined. 17:20:05 hi 17:20:12 hi 18:00:18 hmm.. so if I understand it correctly, the basis for lambda calculus is just f(x)=M(x), where x=N, so M(x)=M(x=N)=M(N) 18:42:46 -!- speedboy has joined. 19:01:55 S = lxyz.xz(yz) =? (lxyz.xz)yz =? xz[xyz=yz] =? xz[yz] 19:02:26 l = lambda 19:03:44 no. 19:04:27 S = lxyz.xz(yz) is an abbreviation for (lx.(ly.(lz.((xz)(yz))))) 19:05:39 ahh... thanks 19:06:31 Sabc = (((Sa)b)c) = ((((lx.(ly.(lz.((xz)(yz)))))a)b)c) = (((ly.(lz.((az)(yz))))b)c) = ((lz.((az)(bz)))c) = ((ac)(bc)) 19:06:45 for arbitrary terms a, b, c. 19:06:48 +r 19:14:15 K = lxy.z = (lx.(ly.x)y), Kab = (lx.(ly.x)a)b = (ly.a)b = ly.b ? 19:14:54 no, the ly disappears in the last step 19:15:01 ahh right 19:15:06 so = b 19:15:08 and the b with it, leaving a 19:15:31 hmm,.. don't think I follow that 19:15:33 Ka is a constant function taking one argument and giving a. 19:16:10 (ly.a)b means that you take the term a and replace every y in it by b. as it turns out, there is no y in the term so the b is just eaten. 19:18:49 (ly.a)b = a[y=b] = a[b] = ??? = a 19:19:00 a[y=b] is just a. 19:19:10 not a[b] ? 19:19:14 no. 19:19:46 a[y=b] is just a notation that denotes the term a, with every occurence of y replaced by b. 19:19:50 hmm.. I don't understand the definition then.. I have (lx.M)N = M[x:=N] 19:20:15 := doesn't mean = I take it 19:20:48 hmm. well, it's (ly.a)b = a[y:=b] = a then. 19:21:32 interesting.. I need to see if I can figure out how that works 19:33:02 it seems like there is a situation like this with regular functions, but I can't remember how to write it 19:34:26 thanks for your explanations and corrections 19:34:45 f(x,y) = x. 19:36:17 lambda calculus was originally a notation for functions without having to invent a name for each. instead of 'the function f, where f(x) = ' you could write 'the function \lambda x.'. 19:37:27 function notation has been ingrained in me all my life.. it's hard to let go. :) trying tho! 19:38:07 so f(x,y,z)=xz(yz) seems to make sense now :) 19:41:39 xy(yz) = x*y*z^2 ? I'm assuming it was just chosen to be written that way 19:41:49 no 19:41:58 oops 19:42:05 sorry. let's build this from bottom up 19:42:12 I messed that up anyways 19:42:18 it would have been y^2 19:42:44 you have a set of symbols that serve as variables and you define terms in the following way: 19:43:03 1. every variable is a term. in our case, x, y, and z are terms. 19:43:27 2. if t is a term and x is a variable, lx.t is a term. 19:43:42 3. it t and r are terms then (tr) is a term. 19:43:55 2. is called lambda abstraction. 3 is called (function) application. 19:44:30 for convenience we write xyz instead of ((xy)z), that is, function application is left associative. 19:44:54 what is (tr), is that (t*r) ? 19:45:11 or t(r) ? 19:45:23 actually, left, so (t)r 19:45:30 t(r), in the usual notation. 19:46:12 that is, the idea is that t is a function and r is substituted for the first argument of that function 19:47:00 as can be seen in the eta-reduction rule, (lx.t)r = t[x:=r]. (lx.t)r is a function application built of the function (lx.t) and the argument r. 19:59:58 Ka => lb.a ? 20:00:05 yes 20:00:10 ok 20:03:51 there's an additional complication - (lxy.xy)y is not ly.yy. instead you have to rename the variable in the lambda first (that's called a bound variable), for example to z - (lxz.xz)y and then apply alpha-reduction, to obtain lz.yz. This renaming of bound variables is called beta-conversion. 20:04:10 forget all I said about eta-reduction, I don't know where my head was then - it's alpha-reduction. 20:04:27 SKKa => Ka(Ka) => a? 20:04:30 eta-reduction is the rule lx.tx = t. 20:04:49 yes. 20:04:53 so, SKK=I 20:04:58 oh 20:05:04 s/oh/ok/ 20:05:07 because SKKa = Ia = a 20:06:00 what letter is η ? 20:06:27 I is lx.x 20:07:21 hmm. maybe we should use \ for lambda like the Haskell folks. 20:07:41 what about λ? 20:07:46 or ^ 20:07:55 λ works :) 20:08:03 no it doesn't 20:08:13 int-e: /charset utf8 (in xchat) 20:08:18 -!- cpressey_ has changed nick to cpressey. 20:08:36 then I won't understand the other half of my chat partners 20:08:38 ;) 20:08:57 hi Chris 20:09:15 \ is fine 20:09:27 int-e: you are from germany? 20:09:32 jix, yes 20:09:36 * jix too 20:10:01 but do you speak german on freenode? 20:10:14 because in xchat charsets are network-lokal 20:10:23 hmm. no I don't 20:10:31 but \ is easier to type 20:10:55 20:10:57 * int-e thinks 20:11:12 ü => ü 20:11:34 -!- Wrrrtbt has joined. 20:11:46 äöü 20:11:58 20:12:05 äöü 20:12:21 -!- int-e has quit ("Bye!"). 20:12:24 -!- Wrrrtbt has changed nick to int-e. 20:12:47 seems to be better now 20:13:24 thanks jix 20:13:43 äöü 20:13:49 ß 20:14:07 äöü = ß ? 20:14:11 no 20:14:12 no 20:14:21 I didn't change my term until after you guys did 20:14:26 ß is the s-z ligature 20:14:28 λ 20:14:32 ß 20:14:41 fl fl 20:14:46 :p 20:14:54 scary 20:15:09 œ œ ? 20:15:10 ffl ? 20:15:16 hah oelig => ölig *g* 20:15:19 how about fi ? 20:15:35 hmm 20:15:42 * int-e wonders which font xchat took that fl ligature from 20:16:03 there is no fi in html 20:16:07 how did you produce it ? 20:16:11 -!- lindi- has quit (Remote closed the connection). 20:16:12 -!- lindi- has joined. 20:16:16 fllig? 20:16:17 is there an ffllig? 20:16:21 alt-shift-l 20:16:29 int-e: not in html 20:16:39 alt-shift-l on a mac-de keyboard is fllig 20:16:42 oic 20:16:57 ok back to λ 20:17:01 heheh 20:17:09 church integers... 20:17:27 zero is λsz.z ? 20:17:36 that lambda looks awful, too. 20:17:37 yes 20:17:41 barendregt numbers 20:17:52 -!- speedboy has left (?). 20:17:52 although I prefer \fx.x 20:18:04 f for function, x for argument 20:18:13 \x.x 20:18:27 and one is one is *LAMBDA!!!!OMG!!!*sz.sz ? 20:18:56 yes 20:19:00 hmm ' ' as lambda *g* 20:19:06 and two is \fx.f(fx) 20:19:22 and succ is \afx.f(afx) 20:19:25 * calamari needs to ignore and understand that first stuff first .. hehe 20:19:52 and add is \abfx.af(bfx) 20:19:53 ok need to understand succ 20:19:54 and so on 20:22:47 SUCC ONE => (\afx.f(afx))(\sz.sz) => \fx.f((\sz.sz)fx) => \fx.f(fx) ... ok works 20:23:08 hmm. mul is \abf.a(bf) 20:23:38 mul is replacing the f of one number with the other number right? 20:23:47 basically 20:24:12 i thought i'd never understand lambda-calculus... 20:27:55 int-e: so in your Sabc example WAY up there you are going left to right? I assume this means parethesis are ignored in favor of left associative? 20:28:00 booleans are funny, too. true is \xy.x, false is \xy.y. if is \xyz.xyz (or just \x.x). a test for zero is \n.n(\x.false)true = \n.n(\xyz.z)(\xy.x) 20:28:58 no, the parentheses are not ignored at all 20:29:06 otherwise, I'd think the \z would be converted first rather than \x 20:29:18 since it is more deeply nested in parenthesis 20:29:27 I need to find a subterm of the form (\x.t)r to apply alpha-reduction. 20:29:53 does alpha reduction actually reduce anything? seems like it just rewrites 20:30:19 well, that depends 20:30:21 (\abc.acb)(\xy.x) => (\bc.(\xy.x)cb) => (\bc.c) so \abc.acb is NOT? 20:30:30 in its simple form it reduces the number of lambdas left 20:30:48 yes 20:30:52 hah cool 20:31:02 because I wouldn't know what to do with t[x:=r].. seems useless 20:31:14 hmm ok i'm trying to write a xor 20:31:48 perhaps I should ignore alpha reduction and just use beta and eta? 20:32:25 calamari no 20:32:41 alpha reduction is the core of the lambda calculus 20:33:26 it wouldn't be interesting without it - you wouldn't be able to do all those computations with it that make it turing complete. 20:33:32 hmm is \abtf.a(bft)b xor? 20:34:03 hmm. no, you need (btf) at the end 20:34:28 yes? 20:34:41 \abtf.a(bft)(btf) 20:34:48 oh yes... 20:34:55 ((((lx.(ly.(lz.((xz)(yz)))))a)b)c) = (((ly.(lz.((az)(yz))))b)c), why is lx removed and not lz? that's what's confusing me 20:35:08 alternatively, you can use \a.a(not)(id) = \a.a(\xyz.xzy)(\x.x) 20:35:32 I reduce the subterm ((lx.(ly.(lz.((xz)(yz)))))a) 20:35:55 which is of the form ((lx.some term)a) 20:36:26 there is no subterm of the form ((lz.some term)some other term), so I can't reduce the lz at that point 20:37:23 the line starting with 'alternatively' was for jix 20:37:43 yeah :) 20:38:41 and: (\a.a ID (K FALSE))? 20:39:06 is and 20:39:16 yes i said 'and:' ;) 20:39:20 oh 20:39:28 hah that's cool 20:39:47 hmm what about digital church like numbers 20:40:37 maybe I need to start simpler 20:40:38 church numbers are base 1 (all "digits" count 1)... what about base 2.. 20:41:32 there are a few ways to build lists ... 20:44:48 nil = \f.f false. cons = \a l.\f.f true a l would work, for example. [nilp = \l.l(\t.t(\xy.false)true), etc] 20:45:36 (lx.x)a = a 20:45:52 calamari: yes 20:45:54 or I should get used to (\x.x)a = a 20:46:18 yay.. getting things started then :) 20:49:38 (\x.(\y.xy)a)b = (\x.xa)b ? 20:52:06 yes 20:52:36 = ((\y.by)a) (two different alpha-reductions possible) 20:53:23 so it is ambiguous? 20:56:28 well yes 20:57:06 but it's confluent - if a term reduces to two different terms, it's possible to reduce those terms to the same term again. 20:57:39 (\y.by)a = b (by eta) ? 20:58:08 and (\x.xa)b = b by that eating rule 20:58:23 no, (\y.by)=b (by eta), so (\y.by)a = ba 20:58:44 and (\x.xa)b = ba by alpha-reduction 20:59:05 hmmm 20:59:16 \x.tx=t ? 20:59:21 yes 20:59:36 as long as t does not contain x. obviously 21:00:08 oh.. I see my error 21:02:10 is there a simpler case of alpha reduction? I do not understand (\x.xa)b = ba 21:02:43 or is that just the simplest case? 21:02:48 it's simple 21:03:52 * calamari adds it to his list of rules 21:03:55 the simplest case is (\x.x)a = a. 21:04:54 but what you actually do there is that you take the term 'x' (the right side of \x.x) and replace every occurence of x (that's the letter on the left side of \x.x) by a (that's the term following the (\x.x)) 21:05:12 lambda rules! 21:06:05 int-e: ahh, cool 21:06:08 thanks 21:09:51 hmm i'll try to do a -1 21:10:12 that's not as easy as +1/SUCC 21:10:33 you can make a function that maps 0 to 0 and every other number n to n-1 21:10:49 and it is an interesting task indeed. 21:13:02 Ka = (\xy.x)a = (\x.(\y.x))a = \y.a 21:13:58 yes 21:14:38 just to make sure \abcdef.g=g? 21:14:49 no 21:14:51 ok 21:15:14 (\abcdef.g)xxxxxx = g 21:16:06 oh right.. need some inputs there :) 21:26:48 KK = (\xy.x)(\xy.x) = (\x.(\y.x))(\x.(\y.x)) = \y.(\x.(\y.x)), as above no prob 21:30:27 SS = (\xyz.xz(yz))(\xyz.xz(yz)) = (\x.(\y.(\z.xz(yz))))(\x.(\y.(\z.xz(yz)))) = \y.(\z.(\x.(\y.(\z.xz(yz))))z(yz)) 21:31:08 coolness. I think I have alpha reduction down.. took me long enough :) 21:33:02 that \xy expansion comes in very handy.. thanks for that 21:35:21 KK is wrong... 21:35:24 KK = (\xy.x)(\xy.x) = (\x.(\y.x))(\x.(\y.x)) now you have to rename one of the K terms (\x.(\y.x))(\a.(\b.a)) = \b.(\x.(\y.x)) 21:35:42 no KK is right. 21:36:07 you can reuse y? 21:36:11 in one term? 21:36:16 yes 21:36:27 oh you can use it because it isn't used inside... 21:36:35 you just have to be careful with unbound occurences of a variable 21:39:40 basically \x.t introduces its own scope for the variable x - namely the term t. you have to be careful when alpha reduction would change the scope of a variable as in (\xy.xy)y where a globally scoped y would become locally scoped in \y.yy. 21:39:51 in that case you need to rename the inner variable. 21:39:56 k 21:40:02 none of that happens in the KK example 21:40:47 if i have a x and a (\x. bla) in the same scope.. i can't use the outer x in the bla code right? 21:41:10 right, that would be shadowed 21:41:14 and if i want to use it i have to rename the inner x to something different 21:41:29 to reuse programming language vocabulary (as I did with scoped) 21:41:37 right 21:48:34 (\x.x(\x.y))a = x(\a.y) ? 21:48:59 a(\x.y) 21:49:33 maybe thinking of (\x.x(\x.y))a => (\.a(\x.y))a => a(\x.y) helps 21:50:48 \.a? 21:51:20 yes you remove the x from the left side of the . and replace it on the right side 21:51:45 -!- Keymaker has joined. 21:52:00 then the left side is empty.. well if it's empty there is no lambda so you can remove it 21:52:02 greetings. 21:52:07 if it confuses you just ignore it 21:52:08 moin Keymaker 21:52:15 moin 21:52:27 i've got couple of interesting ideas 21:52:51 (note: they'll be revealed if ever ready) 21:54:34 hmm yeah it'd be a(\a.y) in my original anyways 21:54:57 but I guess \x stays unchanged 21:57:37 does that seem right ? 21:58:08 \var is not modified by alpha ? 21:59:49 if so, Iota i = \x.xSK = \x.x(\xyz.xz(yz))(\xy.x) = \x.x(\x.(\y.(\z.xz(yz))))(\x.(\y.x)) = (\x.(\y.x))(\x.(\y.(\z.(\x.(\y.x))z(yz)))) 22:00:26 yes the \x stays unchanged 22:00:30 don't want to go on if that is wrong tho :) 22:00:33 oh, cool 22:00:35 and also all x inside the \x 22:00:58 can you give an example of that last thing? 22:01:16 but I don't know what you did to that i 22:01:39 (\xx.xx)a = \x.xx 22:01:41 (\x.x(\x.xy))a => a(\x.xy) but (\x.x(\y.xy))a => a(\y.ay) right? 22:01:42 it's an Iota i, defined as \x.xSK 22:02:10 what did you do in the last step? 22:02:27 int-e: I replaced x by (\x.(\y.x)) 22:02:39 you can't do that 22:03:01 thats saying I == K 22:03:17 \x.xSK is \x.(xSK) 22:03:18 int-e: it seems like a valid alpha 22:03:40 not (\x.xS)K as you interpreted it 22:03:48 oh i thought x == (\x.(\y.x)).. 22:03:56 i thought you said... 22:03:58 nah 22:04:01 stupid me 22:04:10 oic.. I thought it was left associative.. 22:04:13 (\nxy.n (\abc.b(a c c)) (\ab.y) i x) << is this a PREV ? 22:04:26 and is there a lambda calculator? 22:05:11 what's i? 22:05:18 oh should be I 22:05:18 ID 22:05:21 ok 22:05:43 the PREV i saw was much longer and complicated 22:05:48 so i think i'm wrong 22:08:35 I think it will fail on 2; you'll need to deal with real pairs 22:09:10 pairs can be represented as pair := \abx.xab; with first = \a.a true and second = \a.a false. 22:11:00 hmm for me it works with 3 22:11:14 maybe I'm missing something 22:11:50 but manual reduction isn't always 100% correct.. i need a program to reduce lambda expressions 22:12:16 Iota i = \x.xSK = \x.(xSK) = \x.((xS)K) = \x.((x(\xyz.xz(yz)))(\xy.x)) 22:12:44 http://homepages.cwi.nl/~tromp/cl/cl.html 22:12:46 but then I'm not sure I can reduce anything.. can I ? 22:12:58 calamari, no you can't 22:15:29 int-e: the interpreter has only combinatory logic terms no way to enter lambda terms.. do i miss something? 22:16:19 I missed that the Lambda calculus interpreter link on that page is broken :( 22:16:53 http://ling.ucsd.edu/~barker/Lambda/ 22:17:04 seems to do 22:17:46 * int-e has his alphas and betas mixed up, too, apparently 22:17:48 * int-e sighs 22:17:53 it's been too long. 22:17:59 * int-e shouldn't trust his memory 22:18:29 * calamari makes a quick eraser mark.. there fixed! 22:18:43 thanks a lot for explaining this in detail 22:19:20 http://www.phost.de/~stefan/Files/ has a lambda interpreter, too 22:19:49 i'm sure there are others 22:20:18 jix, I think you're leaving out parentheses in your reductions for that PREV. 22:20:35 hmm 22:21:03 the first lambda interpreter has needs parantheses for every application 22:22:44 and the 2nd one refuses to compile.. redefines getchar... 22:22:49 oh? 22:23:07 scanner.cc:67: error: new declaration 'char getchar()' 22:23:08 /usr/include/stdio.h:270: error: ambiguates old declaration 'int getchar()' 22:23:58 yes I see that. interesting. 22:25:34 predates namespaces, too. 22:29:03 http://www.inf.tu-dresden.de/~bf3/lambda-2.8-my.zip 22:30:00 hmm, your PREV works. 22:30:15 funny 22:30:26 don't know what I did wrong when I tried it. 22:31:46 cool 22:32:28 there wasn't much to update in that program - I renamed getchar and ungetchar and added a bunch of using namespace std. 22:32:43 hmm i think if i show this to my friends they will think i'm crazy 22:32:57 I'm still surprised Stefan used C library function's names there. 22:33:24 (I know him personally) 22:33:29 ah 22:33:46 but this was 1999 22:33:47 hehe 22:34:17 is it possible to hack readline into the app? 22:34:31 you might enjoy the standard library, it has an even shorter version of a predecessor function 22:34:33 i hate command lines without working cursor keys... 22:34:39 (not much shorter though) 22:34:54 I'm sure it's possible. I won't do it though. 22:35:13 and i don't know c++ 22:35:34 err actually 22:35:38 it uses readline here 22:36:00 actually it doesn't find my readline... :( 22:37:32 ok it compiles with readline now 22:40:17 ok but i understand how the stdlib pred works 22:40:33 same idea as mine but nicer implementation 22:45:21 some of these macros were created by me actually, we worked on them together. 22:49:09 bbl.. 22:49:18 -!- calamari has quit ("Leaving"). 22:51:59 hmm the c++ lambda app is usefull for generating lazy-k code too 22:52:21 and it's even better for debugging it 22:53:19 hehe 22:53:41 hey, apparently that predecessor thingy was created by me, I even got credit :) 22:54:21 but it uses bruteforce for generating numbers... lazier uses it's also sort of useful for creating unlambda programs 22:54:44 lazy-k is better than unlambda 22:54:59 lazy-k has only s k and i...nothing else 22:56:27 ski 22:56:27 Segmentation fault 22:56:28 our favourite at the time was the power operator ... \x y.y x 22:56:57 oh fun 22:57:53 maybe ski tries to expand the recursion.. 22:57:59 stack overflow 22:58:05 if it does it's useless for lazy-k 22:58:19 lazier has no problems with recursion 22:59:21 lambda> ski (\x.x x x)(\x.x x x) 22:59:21 (S (S I I) I (S (S I I) I)) 22:59:21 lambda> (\x.x x x)(\x.x x x) 22:59:21 Auswertung abgebrochen nach 2733 Schritten. 22:59:24 hmm 23:00:24 quicksort is cheating 23:00:40 it's working with recursive macro expansion 23:00:41 hm? 23:00:49 ah 23:01:00 that is cheating 23:03:57 greater than 0 test: (?n t f. n (?x.t) f) 23:04:45 and iszero if you swap t and f 23:05:22 and its shorter than the stdlib iszero 23:06:25 ah, nice idea 23:14:16 i've an idea for a fast div by 2 23:14:34 oh and the stdlib div is cheating too... 23:15:03 I know 23:15:11 the list div in listop.la isn't though 23:20:44 it's slower than ndiv but it's shorter (only for div by 2 23:20:49 (?n x y.n (?a b c.b(a c b)) (?a b.y) (?x.x) x) 23:20:59 and it floors 23:21:31 ndiv floors too 23:21:37 yes 23:21:55 (?n x y.n (?a b c.b(a c b)) (?a b.y) x (?x.x)) ceils 23:24:13 ah. thanks, I know why I had trouble with understanding the PREV code now 23:24:34 I was somehow thinking of numbers as fffffffx instead of f(f(f(f(fx))))) ... 23:24:46 which makes no sense at all 23:24:57 -!- heatsink has joined. 23:25:40 and that's slower than ndiv? 23:25:49 interesting. 23:25:52 yes.. 23:25:56 but it's shorter 23:26:09 I'd exepect it to be faster actually 23:26:14 * jix too 23:27:33 it'll be hard to create a generic div using that scheme though 23:28:03 you'll probably end up with creating an infinite list of some sort, too - probably made of id and succ elements. 23:28:41 (?n x y.n (?a b.b(a (?z. b (x z)))) (?a.y) x) is sum of [0..n] 23:29:15 hmm i'm unnormal... 23:30:06 i don't now any other 14 years old person who has fun writing lambda terms.... 23:31:34 (?n x y.n (?a b.b(a (?z. b (b z)))) (?a.y) x) is sum of [0,2^0..2^(n-1)] 23:32:03 which is 2^n-1 23:32:32 hmm, ndiv is slower for me 23:32:59 i'm on ppc.. 23:34:04 your div2 needs fewer reductions 23:34:34 ppc function calls are faster than x86 ones... 23:34:43 jix: \n. (n 2) 23:35:03 shorter-pipelines and intensive use of register-argument-passing 23:35:19 right 23:35:19 (? x. ( 2 x)) is faster than (?n x y.n (?a b.b(a (?z. b (b z)))) (?a.y) x) 23:36:45 is there a faster solution for (?n x y.n (?a b.b(a (?z. b (x z)))) (?a.y) x)? 23:39:23 hmm, the formula would be n(n+1)/2 but the division by two kills it 23:42:20 (?n. ( n ( n)) 2) is slower even on ppc! 23:43:12 why is not (?x.x (?x y.y) (?x y.x)) 23:43:29 and not (?x t f.x f t) 23:44:06 because we didn't optimize that for some reason 23:44:11 hehe 23:45:43 is unoptimal too 23:45:56 lamba's xor: (?x y.x (y (?x y.y) (?x y.x)) y) 23:46:06 my xor: (?x.x (?x t f.x f t) (?x.x)) 23:46:43 I know. 23:48:15 is-dividable-by-two: (?n.n (?x t f.x f t) (?x y.x)) 23:48:53 yep 23:49:09 and replace last x by y to get a check for odd numbers 23:49:15 hmm i need signed fractions... 23:49:22 ;) 23:51:52 would (?c x y.c sign nominator denominator) be possible? 23:52:10 that's a triplet, yes 23:52:14 ok 23:52:21 hmm 23:52:23 actually 23:52:37 i'll start with multiplication.. 23:52:39 why not just (?s.s sign nominator denominator) 23:52:53 hmmm yes why not.. 23:52:58 with a selector s: \xyz.x for first, \xyz.y for second, \xyz.z for third component. 23:54:03 rational.la i'm ready 23:54:19 fear! 23:59:21 btw, lambda does understand \x for ?x if you prefer that. the ? was the original symbol though. 2005-08-06: 00:00:24 ? is easier to type on a de keyboard 00:00:35 right 00:00:45 * int-e is using an US keyboard ;) 00:01:05 us keyboard is better for programming 00:01:10 mainly because that makes typing []{} and \ so much easier. 00:01:11 :) 00:01:15 but i'm fast enough on a de keyboard 00:01:52 and i alwazs make tzpos if i use the us lazout ;) 00:02:21 that happens to me, too - but when I'm using a de layout keyboard :) 00:02:38 yeah but i learned typing on a de keyboard years ago... 00:02:59 i started using a keyboard before i was able to read and write 00:03:17 we had an old typewrite in my kindergarden 00:04:04 the first word i was able to type was klo 00:04:39 hmm, did you copy a sign from somewhere? 00:04:49 hm? 00:05:18 what sign? 00:05:42 a sign with the word 'klo' on it. 00:06:02 hm? 00:06:15 ah no 00:07:17 i just pressed some keys and my erzieherin bin zu faul das wort nachzuschlagen... was reading it and i heard klo... and k,l,o are in a triangle 00:07:54 hrm. dict.leo.org suggests 'governess' but I don't like that. 00:08:19 irgndwie komisch englisch zu reden wenn beide deutsch können 00:09:24 Not really. There are other people around who can't read English. 00:09:36 yes 00:10:20 who can't read >>English< well they have a problem 00:10:36 Heh. I meant German. 00:10:46 hrhr 00:10:54 int-e: how old are you? 00:11:10 old. 27. 00:11:18 i'm just interested which people are interested in esolangs 00:12:13 crazy people 00:12:14 hehe 00:12:41 *g* 00:12:55 ok you can count me to crazy peoples... 00:13:16 I count myself among them 00:14:50 heh.. other people in my age play computer games or do sports... but i figure out lambda terms at 1am... ;) 00:15:27 half-life? 00:16:01 * int-e likes to think of that sort of entertainment as computer games ;) 00:16:10 esolangs, that is. 00:16:23 heh. 00:16:35 searching on p2p networks for a song with "love" in the name is hard. 00:16:48 jix: that makes you a stupid dork 00:17:21 lament: why stupid? 00:18:53 ok, there are so many ways to be stupid. 00:18:55 * int-e shrugs 00:19:00 people are stupid. 00:19:01 hehe 00:19:26 :) 00:19:37 stupid + and - signs 00:19:51 brought to me by irssi proxy 00:19:58 puzzlet: use base -2 00:20:04 in base -2 there's no need for signs 00:20:05 puzzlet: use telnet. 00:20:28 Hmm, -2 is interesting. 00:20:32 -2 in base -2 is 10 1 is 01 -1 is 11 00:20:42 yes, I understand perfectly what that means 00:20:57 in base n overflow is 10... but in base -2 its 110 00:21:09 0 1 110 111 ... 00:21:10 but isn't 2 in base -1 -10? 00:21:19 s/-1/-2/ 00:21:34 yes but 2 is 110 too 00:21:35 I also like base 3 with digits -1, 0, 1. 00:21:47 so no need for the sign 00:21:52 I find that sitting at home doing esoteric stuff at 1am when others played sports was altogether a bad thing for my overall development :) 00:21:56 and uhhh 00:22:01 (written as -0+. +, +-, +0, ++, +--, +-0, etc.) 00:22:17 lament, who plays sports at 1 am? 00:22:20 i'm searching for "The man I love", why do i find "Sexy Babe Posing In The Park.wmv"? 00:22:29 lament: haha 00:22:32 i'm going to write my next math test in base -9 00:22:35 int-e: well, no, i should have slept instead :) 00:22:45 no one ever said i have to write math tests using base 10 00:22:54 lament: there's an 'I' in both your search term and the file name. 00:23:23 :) 00:23:33 fuzzy search, maybe? 00:23:49 int-e: yeah :( 00:24:15 and there's a "The" in "Teen Peeing In The Wood Movies.wmv"... 00:24:18 jix hmm, are you sure that confusing your teacher is the best way to get a good grade? 00:24:27 int-e: no 00:24:45 but a 2 is ok too 00:25:06 you mean, B? 00:25:10 yes 00:25:16 (grades in Germany are 1 to 6, 1 is best, 6 is worst) 00:25:30 round((5*1 + 1*6)/2) => 2 00:25:55 and my teacher knows i'm smarter than him.. so he gives me a 1 anyway... 00:26:24 pff 00:26:33 that happened to me once 00:26:57 I got a 1 in computer science class, for a program that I had never written. 00:27:06 oh computer science 00:27:08 (that is, the program didn't exist) 00:27:18 hehe yes same teacher... 00:27:20 1 too 00:27:27 did uhm nothing?... 1 00:27:49 i did some perl coding on my server... but nothing more... 00:27:55 like, for the MS Office? 00:28:02 yes 00:28:12 i did a bit more than nothing 00:28:17 i mean, to int-e 00:28:21 I was lucky, we learned Turbo Pascal at school. 00:28:44 this was ... hmm ... about 10 years ago. 00:28:47 in exel my teacher had a awfull IF ELSE (IF ELSE (IF ELSE END) END ) END construct 00:28:56 and i told him there's something like CHOOSE in exel.. 00:29:55 We even had an introduction to Scheme. That was fun. 00:30:04 we learned a bit javascript (not real javascript but programming a little robot let him walk in a maze) 00:30:19 mh 00:30:25 we haven't had nothing in school 00:30:39 the coolest test i've ever written is the 6+ in french 00:30:49 6+? 00:30:53 it's not a 6 .. it's a 6+ its a good 6 00:31:00 I know 00:31:12 but it's news to me that this grade exists. 00:31:35 yes it's stupid a 6 can't be good... 00:32:21 well, i'm off to read.. ~2:30 am.. 00:32:31 nite 00:32:35 -!- Keymaker has quit ("I've seen this dj vu before.."). 00:32:38 my hard-drive was broken and i had no time to learn... was busy backing up all my projects etc... 00:33:30 and french is _not_ my favorite language.. 00:33:43 I believe that should scare me. But it doesn't. 01:03:41 ok is done 01:04:27 rmul? 01:04:35 rational multiply 01:04:46 as lambda term 01:10:54 something like ... \a b.a (b (\s a b t c d.\f ( s t) ( a c) ( b d))) ... except for canceling common factors. 01:11:41 canceling common factors is an extra function 01:13:04 oh. \f -> \f.f 01:14:10 but yours doesn't work 01:14:28 how do you encode the sign? 01:14:34 as bool 01:14:39 (?a b. (?r.r 01:14:39 ( (a ) (b )) 01:14:39 ( (a ) (b )) 01:14:39 ( (a ) (b )) 01:14:39 )); 01:14:59 evaluates to the looong: (?a b r.r (a (?x y z.x) (?x t f.x f t) (?x.x) (b (?x y z.x))) (?x.a (?x y z.y) (b (?x y z.y) x)) (?x.a (?x y z.z) (b (?x y z.z) x))) 01:15:11 and i think it could be shorter 01:15:47 (\a b.a (b (\s a b t c d.\f.f ( s t) ( a c) ( b d)))) (\f.f 2 2) (\f.f 1 3) 01:15:52 --> (?f.f (?x y.x) (?x y.x (x y)) (?x y.x (x (x (x (x (x y))))))) 01:15:56 seems good to me 01:16:26 (== (\f.f 2 6) 01:17:14 outch.. i corrected your typo and made a mistake^^ 01:18:08 that's ok 01:21:54 i've ( sign numerator denominator) ( rational) ( rational) ( [s n d]) and 01:25:44 hmm. next and 01:25:54 no 01:26:01 hmm, probably it's better to do an 01:26:21 canceling of common factors 01:26:27 uh-oh. 01:26:44 n m. 01:26:51 yep... 01:27:04 is there a gcd in the std lib? 01:27:18 not that I know of 01:28:10 there isn't even a mod although that would be quite simple using the ideas of listop. 01:29:36 i saw a mod free gcd algorithm 01:29:59 yes, you can do it with comparisons and subtractions alone 01:31:01 and with a linear running time for the division that's not even such a bad idea. 01:31:51 (?a b. ( a b) ( a b)); seems to be slow 01:32:16 use the listop.la 01:32:41 and its or ops 01:32:52 (the first 'n' is for 'new' - ignore it) 01:33:02 ah 01:33:14 i thought nne? not-not-equal? 01:36:23 wow, slow. 01:36:39 = (\x.x x) (\f a b. a b ( a b (f f b a) (f f ( a b) b))) 01:38:42 actually nsub can be replaced by lsub there hmm makes me wonder 01:40:33 hah 01:40:45 (?a b t f. (a (K t)) (b (K f))) is a<=b 01:41:01 stolen from prelude.scm of lazier stolen from unlambda page 01:41:13 uff 01:44:28 is ultra slow 01:44:38 is slow 01:44:52 unlambdas is ultra fast 01:57:22 new lsub: (\a b.\g x.(a I (b (K x))) ((\x.x x) (\f x.g (x (f f))))) 01:58:07 cool ist abs(a-b) 01:58:10 its 01:58:21 no, it's b-a 01:58:23 ah no 01:58:26 its b-a 01:58:40 sorry, just swap the arguments 02:16:09 slooooow 02:16:10 ... 02:23:03 yes 02:25:32 rcancle done 02:26:57 * jix has to sleep now 02:28:02 http://www.inf.tu-dresden.de/~bf3/stdlib.la has improved lsub and comparisons and a ggt function 02:28:07 ggt is still slow though 02:28:14 good night 02:31:35 -!- jix has quit ("Bitte waehlen Sie eine Beerdigungnachricht"). 03:17:10 -!- calamari has joined. 03:54:28 g'night 03:54:38 night 03:54:47 Here it's noon 03:54:48 cya int-e 03:55:15 uh it's 5 am here 03:55:16 hehe 03:55:32 -!- int-e has quit ("Bye!"). 07:02:28 -!- calamari_ has joined. 07:03:17 -!- CXI has quit (Connection timed out). 07:11:23 -!- heatsink has quit ("Leaving"). 07:24:12 -!- calamari has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 10:15:20 -!- calamari_ has quit ("Leaving"). 10:16:34 -!- Gs30ng_ has joined. 10:23:32 -!- Gs30ng has quit (Nick collision from services.). 10:24:28 -!- Gs30ng_ has changed nick to Gs30ng. 12:28:31 -!- jix has joined. 12:29:17 moin 12:29:27 moin 12:29:43 well it's not moin here 12:30:04 it's always moin time 12:30:33 then moin 12:32:03 * jix plays guitar 12:40:25 * Gs30ng can't here anything 12:40:29 oops typo 12:44:12 -!- int-e has joined. 12:50:44 moin int-e 12:50:59 Hi 12:54:59 http://www.inf.tu-dresden.de/~bf3/lambda/listop.la contains a gcd function (nggt) that's still slow but quite a bit faster than my previous versions. to get really fast one has to get away from Church numerals though; a list representation (for the bits of the number, say) would perform much better for bigger numbers. 13:08:55 -!- Gs30ng has quit ("to boot in ubuntu"). 14:10:14 -!- Gs30ng has joined. 14:10:15 -!- tokigun has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 14:18:58 -!- Gs30ng has quit (Remote closed the connection). 14:36:01 -!- Gs30ng has joined. 15:40:29 -!- jix has quit ("Bitte waehlen Sie eine Beerdigungnachricht"). 15:45:20 -!- jix has joined. 15:46:00 -!- Gs30ng has quit ("to reboot in windows"). 15:56:13 -!- Gs30ng has joined. 18:43:19 -!- calamari has joined. 19:16:27 -!- pgimeno has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 20:29:05 -!- pgimeno has joined. 22:05:02 -!- calamari_ has joined. 22:05:36 re's 22:27:50 -!- calamari has quit (Connection timed out). 23:26:43 -!- heatsink has joined. 2005-08-07: 01:16:00 -!- jix has quit ("Bitte waehlen Sie eine Beerdigungnachricht"). 01:56:36 bfdebug 1.61 is out 01:57:04 (fixes the step/pass bug in 1.60) 02:26:44 -!- calamari_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 03:03:00 -!- GregorR has quit ("Chatzilla 0.9.68.5 [Firefox 1.0.6/20050716]"). 03:03:30 -!- calamari has joined. 03:03:35 hi 03:07:30 is Safalra ever on irc? 03:17:39 -!- GregorR has joined. 03:29:33 hi Gregor 03:42:19 Hola. 04:20:15 good night 04:21:04 -!- int-e has quit ("Bye!"). 04:53:02 -!- cmeme has quit ("Client terminated by server"). 04:53:03 -!- puzzlet has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 04:53:03 -!- ZeroOne has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 04:53:54 -!- cmeme has joined. 05:01:37 -!- puzzlet has joined. 05:05:56 -!- ZeroOne_ has joined. 05:53:48 -!- heatsink has quit ("Leaving"). 07:51:12 -!- calamari_ has joined. 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:09:47 -!- calamari has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 08:11:09 cya 08:11:11 -!- calamari_ has quit ("Leaving"). 10:43:59 -!- ZeroOne_ has changed nick to ZeroOne. 12:09:33 -!- jix has joined. 12:09:37 a friend of mine suggested a NULL-like esolang. 12:10:01 and i think it's more convenient than NULL 12:10:20 but i also think it's concept is to easy that anyone can make such a language 12:10:34 there must be one or more lang like this 12:10:38 here's it. 12:10:51 there are approximately 20 instructions. 12:11:02 or... well, just make it 16 instructions 12:11:09 from 0 to F 12:11:19 i make a code with it 12:11:54 it will be (maybe so big) hex number 12:12:06 then convert the number to decimal 12:12:21 now we have a code with only 1 big integer 12:12:38 that's it 12:12:47 is there any lang like this already? 12:26:13 but it's 1d like.. 12:26:20 NULL is really 0d 12:26:56 that is true 12:27:00 hmm 12:29:57 then what about this 12:30:26 there are 16 instructions 12:30:45 from 2 to 17 12:31:07 then i write the code 12:31:20 it'll be like 2, 13, 7, 8, 8, 9, ... 12:32:01 i multiply 2 by 18 12:32:11 put the result to A 12:32:32 then i add 13 to A 12:32:42 then i multiply A by 18 12:33:12 finally there would be a big integer 12:34:37 with div and mod i can get the original code 12:35:49 well... seems still 1d 12:39:22 jix, is it sunday too there? 13:20:16 -!- int-e has joined. 13:46:55 hi int-e 13:47:04 Hi 13:47:08 i am 0d 13:47:10 oops 13:47:16 i am trying to make another 0d lang 13:59:57 Gs30ng is 0d Gs30ng is a point! 14:02:19 -!- Gs30ng has changed nick to Gs00ng. 14:16:13 -!- {^Raven^} has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 14:17:00 -!- {^Raven^} has joined. 14:39:29 -!- kipple_ has joined. 14:42:08 -!- int-e has quit (Remote closed the connection). 14:43:06 -!- int-e has joined. 17:00:39 -!- CXI has joined. 22:30:51 -!- calamari has joined. 22:48:06 -!- {^Raven^} has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 22:49:45 -!- {^Raven^} has joined. 22:53:02 -!- calamari_ has joined. 23:00:08 -!- ineiros_ has changed nick to ineiros. 23:04:01 -!- calamari has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 23:13:20 -!- calamari has joined. 23:14:21 -!- calamari_ has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 23:24:20 bbl 23:24:22 -!- calamari has quit 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-!- J|x has joined. 12:38:15 -!- kipple__ has joined. 12:38:15 -!- kipple_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 12:39:47 -!- Gs30ng_ has changed nick to Gs30ng. 13:11:13 -!- CXII has joined. 13:26:52 -!- CXII has quit ("If you're reading this, it's probably xchat's fault."). 13:27:09 -!- CXI has joined. 13:34:40 -!- int-e has joined. 13:42:38 -!- CXI has quit ("If you're reading this, it's probably xchat's fault."). 13:43:12 -!- tokigun has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 13:43:14 -!- CXI has joined. 13:56:29 -!- J|x has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 14:08:50 -!- GregorR has quit (Remote closed the connection). 14:21:29 -!- tokigun has joined. 14:21:36 welcome 14:21:49 err, for everybody. 14:22:07 ...is that conversion thing really over 14:22:10 or not? 14:32:56 -!- kipple_ has joined. 14:32:56 -!- kipple__ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 14:58:37 what where when why who? 15:05:54 -!- CXI has quit ("For once this is my ISP's fault rather than xchat's."). 15:10:02 -!- CXI has joined. 15:16:00 -!- pgimeno has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 15:17:28 -!- Gs30ng has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 15:27:37 -!- fungebob has joined. 15:31:46 -!- pgimeno has joined. 17:14:55 -!- int-e has left (?). 17:28:04 -!- cmeme has joined. 17:28:20 -!- cmeme has quit (Remote closed the connection). 17:29:02 -!- cmeme has joined. 17:56:51 -!- J|x has joined. 18:03:00 -!- calamari has joined. 19:03:57 -!- {^Raven^} has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 19:05:31 -!- {^Raven^} has joined. 19:10:06 heh 19:51:37 hi 20:07:00 hi 21:47:33 -!- Keymaker has joined. 21:47:45 evenin' 21:48:55 -!- cpressey_ has changed nick to cpresseu. 21:48:59 -!- cpresseu has changed nick to cpressey. 21:51:02 <{^Raven^}> hey peeps 21:57:19 hi 22:05:23 -!- int-e has joined. 22:15:55 -!- GregorR has joined. 22:33:17 -!- fungebob has quit ("Today is a good day to chat."). 22:39:40 hi raven, how's it going? 22:41:17 O_O 22:41:33 *BOOOOOOOM!!!!!!* 22:41:42 brains explode? 22:41:55 eyes exploded? 22:41:58 :) 22:42:24 terrorist!! 22:42:29 he had a bomb! 22:42:56 bummer.. he should have been in the white house :( 22:43:35 bbl.. 22:43:37 -!- calamari has quit ("Leaving"). 22:43:57 what do you mean? i thought gregorr was mr. usian president. 22:44:03 *usaian 22:44:29 G-ASP!!!!!! calamari said something nasty about our wonderful fantastic president who can have me murdered under the PATRIOT act if I say anything bad about his majesty. 22:44:46 hehe 22:45:26 Besides, if Bush dies, Cheney becomes president. And while Bush is bad, I am quite certain that Cheney is the antichrist. 22:45:34 i see 22:45:45 Just look at the Project for a New American Century. 22:46:11 Cheney is a founding member, and it advocates for American theater wars simply to show off our power, and not for any political reason. 22:47:41 new american century.. don't like the sound of that. x) 22:48:39 No matter how terrible you think PNAC is, it is far far worse. 23:40:41 -!- J|x has changed nick to jix. 2005-08-09: 00:14:37 -!- kipple_ has quit ("See you later"). 00:17:06 me tired. me sleep go. 00:17:12 nite 00:17:14 -!- Keymaker has left (?). 01:59:38 -!- jix has quit ("Bitte waehlen Sie eine Beerdigungnachricht"). 03:19:39 -!- heatsink has joined. 03:20:52 -!- GregorR has quit (Remote closed the connection). 03:25:46 -!- int-e has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 03:36:04 -!- GregorR has joined. 03:36:17 * GregorR stares longingly at his empty DirectNet buddy list. 03:36:23 *sigh* 04:31:52 Noooo, my game is crashing :( 05:16:02 -!- heatsink has quit ("Leaving"). 07:17:02 -!- gerecter has joined. 07:18:03 -!- gerecter has quit (Client Quit). 07:19:01 Boom. 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 10:35:05 -!- kipple_ has joined. 12:19:26 -!- jix has joined. 14:46:53 -!- int-e has joined. 15:04:52 <{^Raven^}> anyone kow of a BF 'terp that has unbuffered input for Unix or Windows? 15:06:11 <{^Raven^}> not had any luck tracking one down and writing one is proving a pita. 15:06:26 modify one 15:07:58 <{^Raven^}> am having difficulty implementing the low-level keyboard access 15:09:13 <{^Raven^}> on RISC OS it's simple but limits the userbase 15:10:05 use ncurses 15:16:52 <{^Raven^}> thx, looking at it now 16:35:42 -!- fungebob has joined. 17:43:23 -!- ineiros has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 17:59:08 -!- fizzie has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 18:28:09 hm 18:28:16 unbuffered isn't hard 18:28:38 what does low-level keyboard access have to do with unbuffered? 18:51:12 -!- int-e has quit ("Bye!"). 19:09:40 -!- {^Raven^} has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 19:10:30 -!- {^Raven^} has joined. 19:25:13 -!- calamari has joined. 19:25:18 hi 19:26:43 unbuffered.. I have an MS-DOS interpreter that doesn't wait for Enter to be pressed. It is only 8-bit though and maximum program size is aprrox 63,000 bytes. 19:36:26 -!- jix has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 19:36:28 -!- cmeme has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 19:36:29 -!- ZeroOne has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 19:36:29 -!- pgimeno has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 19:36:31 -!- CXI has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 19:36:31 -!- puzzlet has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 19:36:31 -!- lindi- has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 19:36:31 -!- ChanServ has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 19:36:32 -!- mtve has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 19:36:32 -!- calamari has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 19:36:33 -!- fungebob has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 19:36:33 -!- cpressey has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 19:37:57 -!- mtve has joined. 19:38:13 -!- calamari has joined. 19:38:13 -!- fungebob has joined. 19:38:13 -!- cpressey has joined. 19:38:16 -!- cmeme has joined. 19:38:16 -!- pgimeno has joined. 19:38:16 -!- CXI has joined. 19:38:16 -!- puzzlet has joined. 19:38:16 -!- lindi- has joined. 19:38:16 -!- ZeroOne has joined. 19:38:26 -!- ChanServ has joined. 19:38:26 -!- irc.freenode.net has set channel mode: +o ChanServ. 19:38:27 -!- jix has joined. 20:35:04 -!- kipple__ has joined. 20:51:57 -!- {^Raven^} has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 20:52:29 -!- {^Raven^} has joined. 20:53:27 -!- kipple_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 21:07:06 -!- calamari has quit ("Leaving"). 21:10:34 -!- kipple__ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 21:13:54 -!- cOoOoK has joined. 21:14:01 hey 21:15:02 -!- kipple_ has joined. 21:15:06 hi cOoOoK 21:15:16 you seem to be from near here :) 21:15:58 dunno, what means "near here" ;) 21:16:05 Spain 21:16:22 aye 21:16:46 I have just discovered Esoteric programming, and I was really curious 21:17:12 any site to read about? 21:17:32 well, in Spanish there's my own article 21:17:42 in English there's the wiki 21:18:23 my article is just an introduction to some languages, Brainfuck etc. 21:19:04 http://www.formauri.es/personal/pgimeno/compurec/LenguajesEsotericos.php 21:19:30 (many links are broken) 21:20:18 the wiki is at http://www.esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page 21:20:45 really interesting pgimeno, I'm reading now thanks a lot 21:20:52 no prob, enjoy 21:24:24 sorry, that version is currently unreleased and the stylesheet has green colors for tags where it shouldn't 21:29:03 fixed; if you reload you'll get rid of that ugly greenish background 21:30:01 no, It's pretty good 21:32:11 it was an experiment for better differentiation of sections but I didn't finish that part 21:32:41 this is the second version and it's work-in-progress as a second version 21:33:05 why i have never heared about this kinda language? 21:33:15 is really good XD 21:34:00 which one? Brainfuck? 21:34:50 malbolge 21:35:01 oh, hehe 21:35:47 well, is the most natural programming language i have ever read 21:36:10 uses the same logic as Nature 21:36:11 :) 21:36:38 I'd say it uses the same logic as RND() 21:44:47 -!- fizzie has joined. 22:09:30 a very nice reading, thank you pgimeno . I'll come back to the channel 22:09:35 see you all 22:09:41 thanks :) 22:09:42 see you 22:09:49 -!- cOoOoK has left (?). 22:36:16 -!- Keymaker has joined. 22:36:35 hello 22:38:03 grhh.. i'll be back in few minutes. hungry.. 22:57:28 i'm back 22:57:56 it takes amazingly lot time to make and eat cheese-ham bread 23:07:25 it takes amazingly lot time doing nothing for an amazingly long time 23:07:40 :) 23:26:34 hm. 23:26:41 there is nothing interesting on web 23:27:12 *in 23:30:34 shouldn't the wiki page use the lambda sign instead f for lambda? 23:35:43 what does mean 'on the fringe of'? 23:36:00 i have no good web dictionary.. 23:39:26 hmm my dict says fringe == rand(gebiet) which is something like border (zone) 23:55:14 ok. makes sense 2005-08-10: 00:00:23 i think i'll go. nite 00:00:29 -!- Keymaker has left (?). 00:29:22 -!- vbnz has joined. 00:34:11 -!- vbnz has quit ("*monkey grin*"). 00:39:59 i'm insane... 00:40:11 did ?z x y.x (z x y) => (S (K (S (S (K S) (S (K K) I))))) (S (S (K S) (S (K (S (K S))) (S (K (S (K K))) (S (S (K S) (S (K K) I)) (K I))))) (K (K I))) 00:40:13 BY HAND! 00:41:06 took about 40mins 00:41:31 and i have a program that does it in less than a 1/24 sec 00:42:44 (if anyone tells you something he saw took less than 1/(>24) second he lies) 00:46:06 -!- {^Raven^} has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 00:46:50 -!- {^Raven^} has joined. 00:52:32 but i'm getting faster 00:52:32 -!- kipple_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 00:52:43 and i don't need the translation table anymore 00:55:08 did (?x y z.x z y) => (S (S (K S) (S (K K) (S (K S) (S (S (K S) (S (K K) I)) (K I))))) (K (S (K K) I))) in 10 mins 01:11:08 Y => (S (S (S (K S) (S (K K) I)) (K (S I I))) (S (S (K S) (S (K K) I)) (K (S I I)))) 01:28:34 -!- jix has quit ("Bitte waehlen Sie eine Beerdigungnachricht"). 01:55:19 -!- vbnz has joined. 01:55:48 -!- vbnz has quit (SendQ exceeded). 01:55:49 -!- vbnz has joined. 02:02:43 -!- ZeroOne_ has joined. 02:04:58 -!- ZeroOne has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 02:04:58 -!- cmeme has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 02:05:23 -!- cmeme has joined. 02:10:07 -!- ZeroOne has joined. 02:14:26 -!- int-e has joined. 02:17:58 -!- ZeroOne has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 02:45:22 -!- vbnz has quit (SendQ exceeded). 02:45:22 -!- vbnz has joined. 03:26:52 -!- heatsink has joined. 03:28:54 -!- vbnz has quit ("Eject! Eject! Eject!"). 03:40:25 -!- calamari has joined. 03:41:50 hi 03:43:42 hi 03:44:01 hi 03:46:30 ho 03:46:49 hi 03:48:00 he 03:48:32 ha 03:49:36 pi 03:49:36 ng 03:49:38 po 03:49:40 ng 03:49:59 no 03:52:08 trying to decide what my webpage generator markup will look like 03:52:54 ++[+>-]<< Some text here >>[+<-]-- 03:58:15 will it look like html? 03:59:35 that might get too confusing :) 03:59:53 although maybe I should check out xml 05:27:48 -!- heatsink has quit ("Leaving"). 05:42:56 -!- fizzie has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 05:43:03 -!- fizzie has joined. 05:51:13 -!- int-e has quit ("Bye!"). 06:43:53 -!- calamari has quit ("Leaving"). 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 09:00:03 -!- pgimeno has quit (Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)). 09:04:00 -!- pgimeno has joined. 09:21:59 -!- fizzie has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 09:22:29 -!- fizzie has joined. 09:25:38 -!- fizzie has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 09:47:29 -!- fizzie has joined. 10:04:53 -!- kipple__ has joined. 11:30:40 -!- jix has joined. 11:48:07 -!- kipple__ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 13:45:21 -!- Keymaker has joined. 13:45:31 hello 13:46:32 i got an idea for esoteric language 13:47:22 although, i got the idea long time ago 13:49:42 tell us! 13:49:52 well, haven't thought it much after that either 13:49:57 it needs more planning 13:49:58 S I is equivalent to (S (K (S I)) (S (S (K S) (S (K K) I)) (K I))) 13:51:01 anyways, 13:51:12 the language is based on weather reports 13:51:29 and programs look like some strange weather reports 13:51:33 it's annoying to type 13:51:35 i can't explain 13:51:56 * Keymaker throws keyboard through window 13:52:29 you can't type now 13:52:39 that was stupid 13:53:44 yes 13:54:16 i'm somehow strangely frustrated today.. i hate computers today.. rgghhhh 13:54:28 or well, i've never liked the actual machinery 13:57:42 is (S (S (K S) (S (K K) (S (K S) (S (K K) I)))) (K (S (S (K S) (S (K K) I)) (K I)))) 13:57:51 of course done by hand 14:23:30 i finally got around updating trigger homepage; http://koti.mbnet.fi/yiap/trigger/trigger.html .. 14:23:47 i added new version of 99bob and a char2bin converter 14:23:55 (and hello world..) 14:29:27 -!- jix has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 14:46:31 -!- int-e has joined. 15:36:20 -!- fungebob has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 15:53:50 -!- jix has joined. 16:34:32 -!- pgimeno has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 16:49:44 -!- pgimeno has joined. 17:06:54 well, felt asleep for two and a half hours.. glad nothing happened here :) 17:07:41 i should sleep longer at night time.. 17:08:54 -!- ineiros has joined. 17:17:16 Keymaker: nooooo don't sleep at night time.. everyone else sleeps at night time.. so you don't have to. 17:17:33 :) 17:18:32 at school time i often fall asleep for an hour.. sometimes after school sometimes IN school 17:18:43 :D 17:18:59 math lessens are boring.. 17:19:29 well, everything's boring. except philosophy :) 17:19:33 (that i don't have anymore) 17:19:48 no math isn't boring.. only math lessons in school 17:19:58 glad there's only about six months of this current school left.. 17:19:59 yes 17:20:07 i'm talking about lessons too 17:20:12 oh 17:20:17 hmm music isn't boring 17:20:23 don't have that 17:20:58 "gemeinschaftskunde" isn't that boring 17:21:01 sometimes 17:23:08 np: Flogging Molly - queen annes revenge [ Within a mile of home ] 17:23:14 i love that song 17:23:26 never heard that 17:23:31 what kind of music is it? 17:23:49 huh... well what kind of music flogging molly... 17:24:01 electronic..? 17:24:05 no 17:24:07 ah 17:24:14 well, never mind then :p 17:24:50 by the way, as a german you probably hear a lot of germantechno and -trance there? 17:26:23 no 17:26:34 i don't like techno/trance 17:27:05 i hear german punk 17:27:40 ok 17:29:12 hmm iTunes says it's Folk/Punk (Flogging molly).. that fits.. but you have to hear it to know what it is 17:29:29 ok 17:32:29 and they use a lot of instruments that arn't often used for punk...Banjo, Bodhran, Spoons, Fiddle, Tin Whistle, Uilleann Pipes,Accordion, Concertina,Mandolin, Banjo, Bazouki, Mandola 17:32:45 :) 17:32:45 i don't even know all of them 17:33:48 -!- ineiros has quit ("leaving"). 17:34:13 * jix is installing latex on his machine 17:35:52 on some webpage there was "If you see the nick latex^queen on irc do you think of typesetting?" and i thought yes of course?! then i realized that latex^queen may have nothing to do with LaTeX 17:36:15 :) 17:36:47 i hope it has nothing to do with LaTeX x) 17:45:22 -!- pgimeno has changed nick to latex^queen. 17:45:29 :) 17:45:45 well, must go. bll 17:45:47 *bbl 17:45:49 -!- Keymaker has left (?). 17:46:04 some time ago it was harder to find LaTeX-related references on google 17:47:02 you had to add 'tex' and hope that keyword was present in the pages you wanted to find 17:47:52 * latex^queen is trying to find an HTML to TeX converter 17:48:15 to LaTeX even 17:48:58 html2latex is one. :p 17:49:10 html2latex.sourceforge.net and all that. 17:49:13 there's little written in non-esoteric languages 17:50:00 I'm trying to install that one but it fails on 'make test' 17:51:41 maybe I finally stick to sed + manual conversion 17:54:17 -!- latex^queen has changed nick to pgimeno. 18:19:24 heh, nice paradox: Frans Faase has written a converter in a non-esoteric language 18:22:06 "'make test' failed in 0.9, which could be a major headache for some people." 18:22:09 Heh. 18:23:07 I've tried 1.1 18:23:17 well, not sure the version of HTML::Latex 18:23:21 -!- calamari has joined. 18:23:26 hi 18:23:57 it's giving me a strange warning: 'comparison is always true' because it compares if an unsigned char is <= 255 18:23:59 hi calamari 18:24:26 strange in the sense that why should that be a warning (without -Wall at least) 18:26:05 and there may be architectures where MAX_UCHAR > 255 18:26:32 or am I wrong here? I'm no expert in the C89 standard 18:27:10 well, it's still unlikely that you want a non-effective comparison in your code ... I think it's ok to warn about that. 18:29:55 I agree for -Wall, I just think this one is a bit... insignificant? for it to be active by default 18:37:12 Hmm, I disagree that it's insignificant, but there seems to be no way to turn this warning off (except by disabling all warnings) - at least in gcc 3.4.2, which is bad. 18:37:39 s/2,/ -/ 18:38:55 hmm.. just thought of a bit-variant.. wonder how close to TC it is 18:39:39 commands: > = [>], @ = invert bit, if 1->0, then invert next bit (etc) 18:40:38 example of @: 18:40:51 s = 0 0 0 0 0 18:40:56 @ = 1 0 0 0 0 18:41:04 @ = 0 1 0 0 0 18:41:11 @ = 1 1 0 0 0 18:41:18 @ = 0 0 1 0 0 18:41:21 (etc) 18:41:52 @ is basically [>]+<[-<]> if the cell to the left of the pointer is 0. 18:43:49 hmm. but you need loops, too. and probably a way to move the pointer left. 18:44:11 I was thinking that the pointer would never need to move left 18:44:24 but maybe that's wrong 18:46:48 I'm pretty sure that's wrong. right now you can model your machine as a single register machine with an increment (@) and a strange operation that divides by 2 repeatedly as long as the register's contents is odd. 18:48:48 hmm.. > seems redundant, since @ is enough to eventually build any state 18:49:04 so yeah, need something else 18:49:11 -!- {^Raven^} has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 18:49:50 another thing to note is that all bits to the left of the pointer are 1 - and can not be accessed any more. 18:50:04 -!- {^Raven^} has joined. 18:51:47 I wonder if adding < is enough 18:52:29 so now all cells can be accessed 18:53:04 maybe not enough for computation, tho.. :) 18:58:02 bbl 18:58:04 -!- calamari has quit ("Leaving"). 20:40:14 -!- prf has joined. 20:58:57 -!- {^Raven^} has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 21:00:02 -!- {^Raven^} has joined. 21:31:32 -!- CXI has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 21:32:15 -!- CXI has joined. 21:55:51 -!- kipple__ has joined. 21:57:00 -!- pgimeno has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 21:57:31 -!- pgimeno has joined. 22:04:15 -!- calamari has joined. 22:43:55 -!- Keymaker has joined. 22:47:07 hm 22:48:16 talking about jumping/loops.. is it necessary for a turing-complete language to have more than one loop? 22:48:56 you mean that a program cannot have more than one loop? 22:49:08 yeah 22:49:14 -!- kipple__ has changed nick to kipple. 22:49:16 what's a loop? :) 22:49:36 loop? 22:49:51 i thought it was something like while stuff in c 22:49:58 or [ ] in brainfuck 22:50:00 a loop a loop a loop a loop a loop a loop a loop a loop a loop a loop a loop 22:50:05 he's just joking with you 22:50:09 ah 22:50:27 well, i partly guessed.. 22:50:28 interesting question 22:50:39 yah 22:50:46 that depends on the concepts employed 22:51:07 if you have some infinite program storage and a way to modify it, loops may not be necessary 22:51:24 at all? 22:51:30 if you have high level operations like 'execute my data on a turing machine' you also don't need loops 22:51:43 :) 22:52:23 but normally I'd consider loops (or an equivalent concept like recursion) to be necessary. 22:52:41 ok 22:52:54 not that i've planned anything, just thought.. 22:53:44 I think there are some esolangs where there is only one loop, but I can't remember which 22:54:07 ok 22:54:23 better check wiki :) 22:54:27 seem to remember something about every program being looped until some condition occurs 22:56:05 Keymaker (re: at all?): if you can append to your program faster than you execute it, this could work. 22:56:06 but couldn't it be done through self-modification? 22:56:52 I think we're onto the same idea int-e :) 22:58:14 seems that smith has no loops 22:58:17 (esowiki) 22:58:40 yeah, that's the one 22:58:50 ok :) 22:59:17 but, of course, the code copying is pretty much like a loop 22:59:44 yeah 23:01:33 it's amazing how many languages cpressey has made up 23:04:16 Keymaker: is Trigger your lang? 23:04:26 yes, partly 23:04:38 there is no article for it in the wiki 23:04:42 yeah 23:04:43 (hint, hint) 23:04:44 check out 23:05:01 http://koti.mbnet.fi/yiap/trigger/trigger.html 23:05:25 i tried once making an article about it to esowiki, but couldn't make it clear enough 23:05:53 a stub with a link to that web page would be better than nothing at least :) 23:06:02 well, i'll do that 23:06:25 kipple: have you tried trigger yet? 23:06:31 nope 23:06:39 ok 23:06:43 looked a bit a udage, but the spec was hard to read 23:06:49 but I like the concept 23:07:09 yes, as you can see from the spec i got the idea from udage 23:07:16 yes 23:07:25 hard to read? 23:07:27 what? only 256 bits memory :D 23:07:33 yah 23:07:37 i wanted a limited language 23:07:42 i'm sick of those turing tarpits 23:07:45 :p 23:09:01 anyways, i couldn't make the spec any more clear :9 23:09:30 I think a short list of the commands would be nice 23:09:38 i think i have them 23:09:46 there are no commands, you see 23:09:51 yes there are 23:09:57 it's all about patterns that are commands :9 23:10:25 patterns of same character 23:10:41 and in jump case two same characters and an argument character, like rr* 23:10:42 something like this: 23:10:43 * NOT 23:10:43 ** jump 23:10:43 *** print 23:10:43 etc... 23:10:49 ah 23:10:56 that i can do to esowiki article 23:12:07 hey! it's non-deterministic as well :) at least partlly 23:12:16 yeah 23:12:33 or maybe not... 23:12:42 it's in jump case 23:12:55 or well, don't know is non-deterministic right word 23:13:02 yes. but since you can avoid it, I guess it would qualify as deterministic 23:13:03 i'm confused of all random, non-deterministic etc.. 23:13:31 but a nice way to include a random function 23:13:36 thanks 23:14:33 what do you mean by this: "Trigger uses UNIX new-line (dec 10)." 23:14:44 aren't newlines treated as variables too? 23:14:49 yes 23:14:52 but i meant that 23:15:00 three dec 10s in row prints a new-line 23:15:26 they are variables as well 23:15:43 so, on Windows three #10s would print #13#10 ? 23:15:57 no 23:16:07 at least i think so 23:16:53 if you'd like to make a windows new-line you would need 13 13 13 10 10 10 23:17:07 (as characters) 23:17:26 ok. but then I don't get what's the point with saying it uses UNIX new-line. 23:17:42 well, my writings often have no point 23:17:45 hehe 23:17:51 :) 23:17:52 . 23:17:52 . 23:17:53 . 23:17:56 :) 23:18:00 the same could be said about many esolangs :) 23:18:08 yes 23:18:34 anyways, the wiki now has 3 languages in the Non-textual category. We need more! 23:18:47 let's see.. 23:19:39 what non-textual really means? 23:19:42 the output? 23:19:45 the source 23:20:04 ok.. but then doesn't fugue have text sources? 23:20:14 no, at least not in theory 23:20:20 ok 23:20:49 though it has no implementation 23:20:57 i see 23:21:17 hmm.. non-textual langs are interesting 23:21:35 hehe. maybe I should make en interpreter for fugue that I can plug my guitar into :D 23:21:44 :D 23:22:06 I also find them interesting. especially since they are so rare 23:22:12 yes 23:22:18 and NULL is only barely non-textual 23:23:12 yes.. too bad i don't get the null.. i can't understand it 23:23:41 Keymaker: it works with prime-factors 23:24:15 i see that from wiki article but i don't still get it.. 23:25:22 i know how it works but i don't know how to program with it 23:25:43 :) if someone could make a program that prints 'A' and would explain it perhaps then i'd get it 23:25:58 int-e: converting lambda-terms to CL-terms by hand is fun 23:26:30 oh well.. 23:27:06 kipple: here's one idea for graphical 2d language 23:27:32 (typing..) 23:28:16 each pixel would have some rgb value, where r could be instruction, g some memory value, and b -- no idea 23:28:50 so, the memory program could use would be stored in the program itself 23:29:00 i mean the picture 23:29:08 naturally the values could be changed during execution 23:29:11 not bad 23:29:27 jix: you're weird. one of the first things I did was to write a tool for doing that. *g* 23:29:27 then you could see the picture chaning during execution 23:29:42 hehe, that kind of interpreter would be very neat! 23:30:09 how about that being the only kind of output :) 23:30:17 :) 23:30:35 would get quite hard to make any visible messages 23:30:45 rgb is to common for an esoteric language 23:31:00 well, i don't know any others 23:31:05 HLS 23:31:06 HSV 23:31:13 CMYK 23:31:15 both g and b could be values. then you could have instructions with two arguments 23:31:16 YIQ 23:31:17 YUV 23:31:35 but yes rgb is ok 23:31:36 and then you could easily modify pixels elsewhere 23:31:42 yes 23:31:45 ide 23:31:46 a 23:32:00 yeah, maybe g and b both being arguments is good, like you said kipple 23:32:08 there is a instruction-component pointer which says what is insturction (R G or B) 23:32:18 nice 23:32:23 i didn't get it 23:32:35 what is instruction-component? 23:32:41 if ICP == R red is instruction green is arg1 blue arg 2 23:32:58 if ICP == G green is instruction blue is.... 23:33:13 a 3D IP would do that 23:33:28 kipple: with 1 dimension limited to (1..3) 23:33:33 yes 23:33:44 you could of course add more 23:33:50 like alpha 23:33:51 hmm 23:34:03 and octarine 23:34:04 but alpha = 0 is stupid because it hides rg and b 23:34:11 ultra-violet 23:34:12 infra-red 23:34:18 int-e: octarine is a great idea! 23:34:27 the first magical programming language 23:34:49 octarine? 23:35:00 just having octarine would make it Turing Complete in itself :) 23:35:11 jix: It's the eights color of the rainbow, the magical color. 23:35:19 the rainbow has 9 colors 23:35:27 don't you see them? 23:35:30 what's soe magical in that? 23:35:30 It's only visible in strong magical fields. (Read some Terry Pratchett :) 23:35:40 the rainbow has many colors. 23:36:02 :) well, perhaps this is some reference to some book that i have no idea about.. 23:36:02 it's a fictional color from the Discworld book series 23:36:06 int-e: i red one and i'm going to read more..(i still have one at home unred) 23:36:20 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Octarine#Octarine 23:36:23 jix, it's pronounced 'red', but it's spelled 'read' :) 23:36:53 should've thought of wikipedia. 23:36:55 :) 23:36:58 :) 23:37:00 thanks kipple 23:37:22 int-e: knaw i hate spelling.... 23:37:46 I was just trying to be helpful :( 23:38:00 int-e: yeah feel free to correct me... 23:41:49 writing a program in such a language would be difficult, unless you have a nice IDE though 23:41:52 The rainbow has infinite colors, it's a gradient, not several independent color entities :P 23:41:59 very true 23:42:21 GregorR: yes but it's a gardient with 9 keys that are interpolated... 23:42:32 but Newton was a bit of mystic and decided that we have 7 23:43:13 anyways, about the language.. 23:43:20 what could be good instructions 23:43:26 GregorR, hmm, wasn't there an energy quantum and thus a finite number of different wavelengths in a rainbow? 23:43:39 Keymaker: i think over-complicated instructions would be cool instead of simple ones like bf's 23:43:59 well, perhaps, but it'd be nice to get something actually done 23:44:08 yeah. I've thought of doing a lang where all the instructions have a ton of side effects := 23:44:15 check ADJUST 23:44:20 like take a value from x-3 y+4 and add 4 and multiple it with the x+7 y-2 xor 12 and produce a beep 23:44:22 but perhaps not in this one :) it's gonna be hard enough as it is 23:44:23 i can't make anything in t 23:44:50 i'd like simple, "efficient", visual programming language 23:44:56 agreed 23:45:40 ok but it shouldn't be that minimalistic 23:45:48 it should have powerfull math features 23:45:53 * Keymaker dies 23:46:10 such as? 23:46:12 a set instructions to manipulate the IP, a set of instructions to manipulate the pixels 23:46:15 from cos..e^x...a/b 23:46:27 kipple: yeah 23:46:30 jix: aarg 23:46:35 ? 23:46:45 jix: i wouldn't like 23:46:57 cos/sin would be nice for making circles 23:47:18 or you could just use lookup tables ;) 23:47:23 :) 23:47:48 i think the IP should be befunge like 23:47:53 yes 23:47:57 ok but it should have one 100% useless very complex function i'm going to design now 23:48:10 Keymaker: i think it should use reflection (\ and /) 23:48:23 heh 23:48:32 jix: try 'expand power series' and take the coefficients from a straight line ... 23:48:40 jix: that's powerful and hard to use ;) 23:48:56 uhm i don't understand it 23:49:05 maybe i don't know the english expressions 23:49:29 what I mean are functions defined as f(x) = sum(i=0 to infinity) a_i*x^i 23:49:35 the a_i are the coefficients 23:49:40 to get all the features we want, perhaps we need to get to separate languages (the udage-trigger style) 23:49:51 ah 23:50:00 i at least will work on simple befunge like rgb thing 23:50:22 Keymaker: i like that too 23:50:55 i'd suggest writing the interpreter in c+sdl that's portable and fast 23:51:00 but first we need a spec 23:51:04 yeah 23:51:09 i thought about c+sdl too 23:51:14 yes 23:51:29 do we have a stack? 23:51:34 if you're going with rgb then each value is only 8bit 23:51:35 or registers 23:51:39 yeah 23:51:56 we don't need stacks or registers. the image is the storage 23:52:03 exactly 23:52:11 unless you want turing completeness 23:52:15 well, 23:52:28 there could be infinite "canvas" 23:52:31 yes 23:52:40 that the picture is only part of it, place on right top corner 23:52:46 agreed 23:52:54 the other values all having either random values or 0s or 255s 23:53:35 i have a cool memory adressing idea.. it's possible to adress many values with only 1 byte 23:53:40 with a spiral 23:54:06 well, the language was supposed to be simple to use :) 23:54:11 but nice idea 23:54:12 it's simple 23:54:15 oh 23:54:25 think of 23:54:26 FEDCB 23:54:26 G321A 23:54:26 H4P09 23:54:26 I5678 23:54:26 JKLMNO 23:54:30 where P is the current IP 23:54:42 ok 23:54:49 you just start moving right and walk around the center in a spiral 23:55:06 ah i see now 23:55:16 i was just imagining other kind of spiral 23:55:43 hmm 0 could be the current instruction for easy self modification 23:56:20 if it's going to have infinite canvas, it probably needs a separate data pointer or self-modification 23:56:31 pgimeno: self-modification 23:56:32 how about something like sokoban where you move blocks around? 23:56:50 or infinite data pointer... 23:56:53 :) that'd be fun 23:57:04 but the instruction that moves DP should use spiral-offsets 23:57:26 otherwise the data access will be trapped, just as in Bitxtreme 23:57:49 so it needs separate data pointer..? 23:58:26 yes with inifinite size 23:58:34 either that or self-modification, otherwise infinite size is pointless 23:58:44 (for finite programs) 23:58:46 self-modification 23:58:54 was part of the plan 23:58:58 (iirc) 23:59:06 k 23:59:06 yes but that makes it very hard 23:59:14 but well it's possible 23:59:37 it can copy regions instead of cells 23:59:47 pgimeno: ack ack ack! 23:59:51 brilliant idea 23:59:57 nice :) 2005-08-11: 00:00:01 that'd be very neat 00:00:07 but i want spiral adressing in it 00:00:11 :9 00:00:16 %) 00:00:26 spiral addressing? 00:00:53 scroll up 00:00:59 to the line FEDCB 00:01:33 let's see.. perhaps there should be some instruction stack, or where else the program would take the coordinates of x1,y1,width1,height1 copy that, paste to x2,y2..? 00:01:56 hmm 00:02:08 Keymaker: you adress one pixel and it takes the info from 4 pixels next to that pixel 00:02:21 and the one pixel is adressed using SpiralAdressing(tm)^^ 00:02:22 yes, that's one way 00:02:28 :) 00:02:51 perhaps better than instruction stack 00:03:05 nice if all data is stored in the image 00:03:09 yes 00:03:15 jix is right on this one 00:03:33 as well, i think that the next pixels should be taken from the direction the data pointer is moving 00:03:48 yes. 00:03:57 :) 00:04:09 and the datapointer could have a flag which says "move in a spiral" 00:04:37 if you really want to use the data pointer, then.. :) 00:04:53 perhaps it's best to have data pointer AND instruction pointer 00:05:12 oh, I meant instruction pointer 00:05:18 ah 00:05:18 do we need both? 00:05:23 i don't think so 00:05:43 how about the IP being a function (which can be redefined) 00:05:55 then it could move in many different ways 00:05:59 kipple: another language... imho 00:06:04 yeah 00:06:09 just an idea 00:06:11 ok 00:06:20 but about the instruction pointer.. 00:06:29 do we need the data pointer 00:06:35 or just IP and self-modifying 00:06:37 no 00:07:07 since the data is stored in the same pixel as the instruction I don't think you need a data pointer 00:07:13 yes 00:07:17 me neither 00:07:24 so, just IP and selfmod 00:07:30 agree. 00:07:38 but then, the spiral movement 00:07:47 should the ip move spirally? 00:07:54 no ip moves linear 00:07:58 ok 00:07:58 but adressing is spiral 00:08:04 but.. 00:08:12 like, indirect addressing? 00:08:15 like add_a_to_cell_at_adress_b 1 2 00:08:30 oic 00:08:31 which fits perfectly into rgb 00:08:41 adressing is spiral and relative to ip 00:09:05 what that 'adressing' means 00:09:07 ? 00:09:44 do you mean by that reading the values near the ip that are needed for example copying piece of canvas? 00:09:59 yes 00:10:02 ok 00:10:12 and you can do nothing if you can only access the current cell 00:10:18 if the IP is at 0 then the addresses for other pixels is: 00:10:19 6789 00:10:20 501A 00:10:20 432B 00:10:20 FECD 00:10:24 am I right? 00:10:27 yes 00:10:32 i did it CCW but CW is ok too 00:12:55 gonna be difficult to program ... 00:13:30 hmm 00:13:59 not sure if it's right for this lang (though I like the idea) 00:14:08 yeah 00:14:48 it's naturally possible that we make separate languages, as i've mentioned 00:15:12 the more non-textual langs the better ;) 00:18:48 cool, started on my spec then too :) 00:18:56 ok 00:19:04 I would appreciate help with SDL, though.. any guides for that? 00:19:07 i'll keep my version simple 00:19:16 calamari: sorry, nope 00:19:33 i'll have a bit hard time coding things up 00:19:45 how did you learn it? 00:19:52 me? 00:19:53 long hours of man pages ? 00:20:00 i can't do almost nothing at all in it 00:20:03 yeah 00:20:06 oic 00:20:11 i can try to send you some small codes tomorrow 00:20:15 if i have anything left 00:20:23 like simple drawing things 00:20:37 although i don't have single pixel drawing stuff.. 00:21:15 haven't really found good manuals, i've got info from here and there around the web, and haven't program almost anything, just tests, nothing game-like or something 00:21:18 that's okay. I might as well try to figure it out :) 00:21:24 ok 00:21:50 anyways, good luck with your language gentlemen 00:22:10 kipple: do you want to cooperative work with me or design own? 00:22:23 i think we were on same thought patterns, so.. 00:23:43 I'm not going to make my own , no 00:24:27 can help with yours if you want 00:24:34 sure! 00:24:44 i'll e-mail to your e-mail address, 00:24:49 the one that is on your page 00:25:05 my page is down :) 00:25:16 is slartibartfast alive? 00:25:29 yes, but my router won't cooperate 00:25:33 ok.. 00:25:42 well, then can you tell here what the address is? 00:25:49 or open that new window and tell 00:25:51 rune@krokodille.com 00:25:53 ok 00:26:27 it'll be interesting to see what kind of languages people make up 00:26:33 anyway, maybe we should make a page under Works in Progress in the wiki 00:26:51 sure 00:26:53 but.. 00:26:56 what name?! 00:27:14 lets just pick a temporary one 00:27:25 ok.. Temporary One 00:27:41 and the final could be TT - Temporary Two. 00:27:42 ;) 00:27:43 "Codename: RGB" 00:27:47 or Three. 00:27:51 :) 00:27:53 lol 00:27:57 codename: rgb 00:28:01 that's fine! 00:28:23 do you make the article? 00:28:31 what happens if two people edit the same article at the same time? 00:28:33 ok 00:30:19 http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Codename:_RGB 00:30:34 ok :) 00:31:07 so, what do we have so far? 00:31:20 let's see: 00:31:24 infinite canvas 00:31:34 where the program will be placed on left top corner 00:31:44 (i accidentally said 'right' sometime ago) 00:32:27 the other canvas is filled with zeroes or something 00:32:34 zero is fine 00:32:38 ok 00:32:42 not important 00:32:47 yeah 00:32:51 how about pink? 00:32:58 not bad 00:32:59 ;) 00:33:08 often used as 'transparent colour' 00:33:28 anyways; then we have instruction pointer 00:33:47 that moves linerally 00:33:56 to befunge-like directions 00:34:06 i'd be fine with the four directions 00:34:12 yes 00:34:16 ok 00:34:37 then, we have each pixel that have rgb value, where r is some instruction 00:34:43 and g and b data 00:34:49 each of them naturally being 8-bit 00:35:54 what do you think: if there's some instruction (like that copy-paste) that needs more arguments than two, it should take them from the next pixels, from the direction the ip is moving 00:36:08 yes 00:36:13 that's the easiest way 00:36:15 then, if there's only two arguments, should the instruction take them from g and b? 00:36:35 I would say that can be different in each instruction 00:36:43 yeah 00:36:50 what about returning values? 00:37:01 do we need that? 00:37:04 hmmm 00:37:10 i meant like input 00:37:13 from a file 00:37:20 hmm 00:37:28 probably should save to g and b 00:37:34 and if eof, make g 1 00:37:36 or something 00:37:40 while it usually is 0 00:37:55 fill unused space with random data 00:37:59 eof thing could be useful, i think 00:38:04 that makes nondeterministic programs possible 00:38:08 like number guessing game 00:38:19 jix: that was one of my ideas many lines ago :) 00:38:24 oh 00:38:39 but i was talking about the empty canvas 00:38:44 not sure if you mean the same 00:38:45 why not have a separate random function? we have 256 instructions possible 00:38:49 yes 00:38:55 that should be there too 00:38:58 probably 00:39:02 most probably! 00:39:04 yeah 00:39:18 anyways; what do you think about that eof kipple? 00:39:32 which one? 00:39:47 that something like setting g to 1 in case of eof or something 00:39:55 sounds good 00:40:06 yeah, something like that would be useful 00:40:26 by the way, what should happen if the ip moves to top edge or left edge? 00:40:32 program crash? 00:40:39 it could be infinite in all directions 00:40:45 mmh 00:40:47 yes 00:41:21 aargh 00:41:27 this stuff really eats memory 00:41:45 like 5000x5000 canvas with 3 values for every pixel.. 00:41:47 * Keymaker dies 00:41:55 You waaanto to use RXML for input :) 00:42:00 waaant to even 00:42:04 the canvas should be allocated dynamically as needed 00:42:17 well, yeah, but i can't program that :) 00:42:36 just resize the image when needed. is that difficult? 00:42:57 hmm not sure 00:43:20 anyway, lets not go into implementation details at this point :) 00:43:28 yeah 00:43:31 Such as using RXML as input :) 00:43:36 :P 00:43:39 what's RXML? 00:43:46 http://www.codu.org/rxml.php 00:44:02 Raster imaging in XML. Mind-bogglingly stupid is what it is 8-D 00:44:03 i was already guessing it was some gregorr's stuff.. 00:44:10 Keymaker: what's 100 MB among friends? 00:44:11 ah, yes that one 00:44:24 :) 00:44:41 oh! 00:44:47 XML! I like. 00:45:01 * int-e pukes somewhere behind the scenes. 00:45:06 Heheheh 00:45:21 as a sidenote; the hats gallery still needs updating! 00:45:33 I know, I know XD 00:45:50 Gregor = lazy :P 00:45:56 :) 00:46:16 lets make some instructions! 00:46:21 mm ok 00:46:30 we need a put value to pixel (x,y) 00:46:36 yeah 00:46:41 as well, 00:46:53 should it be (x,y,r g or b) 00:47:08 or only that it changes b automatically? 00:47:13 or r or g 00:47:20 yay, the converter uses DOM ... read the whole document, then convert it, then write it. 00:47:24 * int-e is sooooooo happy. 00:48:17 a problem is that x and y can larger than 8bits 00:48:30 hmm 00:48:32 can _be_ larger... 00:48:36 yah 00:48:54 never thought about that before.. 00:49:25 so x and y should perhaps be relative to current IP position 00:49:31 yes 00:49:35 that's one good way 00:49:55 yeah, i think that's the best 00:50:36 [...] properly indented of course. This is great stuff. 00:51:06 how about this: the g is the value to be put, and b determines if the value goes to the r,g or b component 00:51:09 Could int-e be raising some sort of sarcastic defiance against RXML? :P 00:51:12 note that this format is easily extensible to include alpha and octarine channels. 00:51:27 the coords taken from the next pixel 00:51:31 yeah 00:51:33 no. RXML is a great example why XML should *not* be blindly used. 00:51:52 NO!!!! XML IS ALWAYS BETTER!!!!! BUZZWORD = GOOD!!!! 00:51:59 hmm, by the way 00:52:06 See, that's what I'm defiant against. 00:52:08 :) 00:52:18 what about negative values? 00:52:31 yes. that's a problem 00:52:34 should the values go backwards if value is bigger than 128 or something? 00:52:42 Keymaker: You know, you would have an extra data byte if you used alpha. 00:52:45 yes. the bytes could be signed 00:52:52 yes, we know 00:53:17 int-e: At OSCON, somebody presented (as part of their larger presentation) a convertor to write perl as XML, and an environment to run it. 00:53:48 we need XMLBrainfuck! 00:53:50 GregorR: You see I'm old-fashioned. If data is transfered in a verbose format like XML, compressed with gzip, I raise the question why they added that redundancy in the first place and didn't use a custom binary format. 00:53:53 hehe 00:54:07 int-e: Oh so true. 00:54:18 kipple: XML will fuck your brain enough without Brainfuck support ;) 00:54:33 double negative is positive! 00:54:37 Oh. I see something coming 00:54:44 :D 00:54:58 00:55:32 too concise, I'll admit, but it's a start. 00:55:33 + 00:55:44 :D 00:56:11 hmm, is --> valid? 00:56:26 err it'd be wouldn't it 00:57:01 kipple: we need to invent some logical way the next cells are checked; i mean that it's strange if sometimes the values are taken from the pixel where the instruction is, sometimes from the four next pixels etc.. 00:57:01 back to RGB: how about put taking coords from the two next pixels. the first pixel would be negative, and the second positive 00:57:32 hmm 00:58:38 or another way could be that it checks if pixel1's g is 0, then b's value will be positive direction, else if it's 1 or something, then b's direction will be negative 00:58:47 pixel1 being the x coordinate 00:58:52 and the same for pixel2 00:59:11 the g being 0 or 1 determining the direction (backwards or forwards) 00:59:19 and b being the value 00:59:26 yes. it could handle the next pixels as 24bit signed integers 00:59:57 no, that would perhaps make it too hard to program... 01:00:15 perhaps the 8-bit values is fine 01:00:27 i doubt anyone makes something very large program anyways, 01:00:32 and if does, they can use patterns 01:00:59 hmm. an address stack is tempting 01:01:15 Keymaker: did a trigger program 01:01:20 cool! 01:01:24 lemme see! :) 01:01:44 http://rafb.net/paste/results/1jN0f072.html 01:01:54 it's simple but it works 01:02:02 let me try :) 01:02:34 trigger is cool 01:02:41 thanks 01:02:50 and 99bob in trigger is insane-cool 01:02:54 :) 01:02:55 voted ***** 01:03:00 thanks 01:03:09 i have a new version of it on my page 01:04:32 jix: nice :) 01:05:14 jix: 01:05:16 xaxxaaxb bbxbbxc ccxccxd 01:05:16 aatbbuccv111fddev222eddfuccv333fddev444eddftbbu555fddeu666e 01:05:33 the die program 01:05:37 (that i call dice) 01:05:55 the rand seed is bad 01:06:12 i get the same number for every >4 calls 01:06:15 I know. I used the standard technique to use time() 01:06:24 which only changes once per second 01:06:32 hmpf 01:06:52 ruby uses microseconds^pid 01:07:00 anyways; kipple; where were we? 01:07:07 hmm. pid 01:07:08 thinking about addressing 01:07:11 ah 01:07:20 yes, using gettimeofday would be better but I was lazy 01:07:32 maybe we need a datapointer... 01:07:34 ruby's prng is very good.. passes all ent test 01:07:41 mmh 01:07:48 i'm not sure 01:07:50 it's a mtSOMENUMBER 01:08:07 mersenne twister. hmm. 01:08:35 kipple: must think about it 01:08:39 i just read the comment 'equidistributed in 300 dimensions' and stopped reading the source *g* 01:08:45 I don't think the idea to read from the next pixels according to the IP is a good idea. 01:08:46 personally i'd like only ip 01:08:56 :) 01:09:04 it's already hard to imagine 4d.. i don't want to imagine 300d 01:09:13 yes, it isn't very nice looking in the source either 01:09:20 a bit clumsy 01:09:27 "(It is proved that the period is 2^19937-1, and 623-dimensional equidistribution property is assured.)" 01:09:37 fun 01:10:03 kipple: then, do you suggest a stack? 01:10:13 it'd be probably best, since it's non-visible etc 01:10:16 hmm. not really 01:10:22 hmm ok 01:10:25 would be convenient, but unelegant 01:10:41 yeah.. but what would be the elegant choice? 01:10:57 haven't thought of it yet :) 01:11:01 :) 01:11:25 the elegant choice wouild be to use only g and b 01:11:28 :) 01:11:30 yeah 01:11:35 true 01:11:43 g is value, b is address 01:11:52 a bit limited though ;) 01:11:57 :) 01:12:10 almost trigger limited, if b being some memory address 01:12:39 but the address is really 3d 01:12:50 since there are 3 components of each pixels 01:13:00 yeah 01:13:21 that could be solved with three put instructions putR, putG and putB 01:13:30 yeah 01:13:54 but what about the coordinates -- or the value? 01:14:02 the value is from g 01:14:03 all can't be fit in two places 01:14:09 and coordinates? 01:14:13 that's the problem 01:14:15 b? 01:14:27 4 bits for x and 4 for y :( 01:14:33 yeah 01:14:40 :\ 01:14:51 not to mention copy and paste... 01:15:07 maybe we'll need to make up our own image format 01:15:31 like where each color component is a 64 bit int? 01:15:33 where each pixel has r and g and b values and ten other values :) 01:15:50 I'm sure RXML is up to the task 01:15:56 just joking :) 01:16:07 but that 64 bit int thing could work 01:16:28 let's stick to standard rgb or we cant convert to a normal image file 01:16:40 yeah 01:17:50 I think the proper course of action would be to RISCianly divide functions that can't be done in one "packet" into several *shrugs* 01:18:07 (Where "packet" = "pixel") 01:18:11 how about having a Data Offset which is applied to the IP when reading values? 01:18:40 hmm 01:18:59 no, that's just a data pointer in disguise... 01:19:06 :) 01:20:35 how about the values being read from a direction perpendicular to the IP? 01:20:51 what's perpendicular? 01:21:18 90 degrees (unless I'm mixing things up) 01:21:30 ah 01:22:06 kipple, that 01:22:10 is correct 01:22:27 that would prevent the ip execution the "argument pixels".. 01:22:32 so if the IP is moving left, the data is read downwards 01:22:37 or something 01:22:42 yeah 01:24:01 designing this kind of language is a lot more difficult than i expected it to b 01:24:06 *be 01:24:31 I think this is maybe the best way if we're to avoid DPs and stacks 01:24:40 yeah 01:24:46 anyways, i'm getting rather tired, it's 3:30 am already.. 01:24:57 maybe better continue another time? 01:24:59 only 2:30 here :) 01:25:03 :) 01:25:09 yeah, let's do that 01:25:13 ok 01:25:17 good nite everyone 01:25:28 i'm outta here for a while 01:25:29 night 01:25:34 bye 01:25:36 -!- Keymaker has left (?). 01:28:55 input in trigger doesn't work 01:30:14 ah it does work 01:31:18 -!- CXI has quit (Connection timed out). 01:35:53 a new trigger programm called numcat 01:35:54 http://rafb.net/paste/results/3OHwfi96.html 01:36:05 it's like cat but only supports 0123456789 and \n 01:36:35 gn8 01:39:17 -!- kipple has quit ("See you later"). 01:42:52 -!- jix has quit ("Bitte waehlen Sie eine Beerdigungnachricht"). 01:55:25 -!- calamari_ has joined. 01:56:24 -!- calamari has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 02:19:41 -!- calamari_ has quit ("Leaving"). 02:44:37 -!- calamari has joined. 02:45:21 yay, hacked scrobbler to remove all the limits about why it won't add a song :) 03:53:48 -!- int-e has quit ("Bye!"). 04:14:04 <{^Raven^}> hey 04:14:55 hi raven 04:15:12 done with summer classes.. that means I can work on my game a lot more now! 04:55:29 -!- calamari_ has joined. 05:14:05 -!- calamari has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 06:23:04 -!- prf has quit ("( www.nnscript.de :: NoNameScript 3.81 :: www.XLhost.de )"). 06:49:56 -!- fizzie has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 06:50:18 -!- fizzie has joined. 07:18:25 -!- kipple has joined. 07:21:39 -!- pgimeno has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 07:21:46 -!- pgimeno has joined. 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:23:45 -!- puzzlet has quit (Remote closed the connection). 08:23:45 -!- kipple has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 08:31:56 -!- puzzlet has joined. 11:02:33 -!- calamari_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 11:20:09 -!- jix has joined. 13:22:12 -!- Keymaker has joined. 13:22:27 hmm 14:26:00 <{^Raven^}> wibble 14:26:21 too bad i need to go now 14:26:33 bbl, hopefully kipple'll be around. 14:26:37 -!- Keymaker has left (?). 14:26:39 <{^Raven^}> have fun 14:27:27 <{^Raven^}> I gotta explain to someone unfamiliar to BF that it is *impossible* to save and load files 14:29:21 <{^Raven^}> I guess that what happens when you make brainfuck programs for the general public to use 15:50:36 -!- CXI has joined. 16:11:37 -!- int-e has joined. 16:46:22 GregorR: Using DOM for the RXML to PNM converter turned out to be a great choice - converting that 35 MB image to PNM used 350 MB of RAM ;) 17:22:05 int-e: YEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE HAW!!!! 18:30:16 -!- kipple has joined. 18:35:34 -!- Keymaker has joined. 18:35:50 hello 18:35:58 hi 18:36:01 hi 18:36:05 lo 18:36:15 evening 18:36:45 kipple: the esowiki article seems nice 18:36:52 the codename: rpg 18:36:56 oops 18:37:00 i mean rgb 18:37:12 hehe 18:37:15 :) 18:37:25 now that is an idea. an esolang based on RPGs :D 18:37:34 heh 18:37:57 anyway, I just jotted down what we've discussed so far. probably missed a bunch 18:38:04 nice 18:38:14 uploaded anywhere? 18:38:54 argh. dinner 18:39:01 i'll be back in a esominute 18:53:20 uploaded? what do you mean? 18:54:07 back 18:54:31 i meant that have you uploaded the things you jotted down 18:54:38 or did you jot them down on real paper? 18:54:44 umm. in the esowiki :) 18:54:48 ahh. 18:54:56 I said I porbably missed a bunch :) 18:55:12 ok ok 18:55:16 feel free to add to it 18:55:52 yeah, it looks like it has probably all or most of the stuff 18:55:57 anyway, regarding instructions and arguments 18:56:04 hm 18:56:36 what if g determines direction for reading the arguments, and b says how many arguments to be used? 18:56:48 not bad at all 18:56:56 that's very nice actually 18:57:16 for instance: ADD RIGHT 5 will add the values of the 5 pixels to the right of the IP 18:57:41 but where to put the return value if it's larger than 255? 18:58:08 hmm 18:58:14 first; 18:58:54 what if the case is that copy area thing where there's many arguments? 18:59:21 i think your idea could work the way g determines the direction where the values are read from 18:59:27 with this method there are up to 255 args 19:00:12 oops, seems i forgot to continue: 19:00:23 and the b could be ignored 19:00:28 do you see what i mean? 19:00:33 no 19:00:37 ok :) 19:00:40 wait.. 19:01:05 if there's the command copy_area(x1,y1,width,height,x2,y2) 19:01:18 then, where the instruction takes the arguments? 19:01:35 from the direction specified by g 19:01:38 ok 19:01:39 yes 19:01:41 (I don't understand the problem) 19:01:43 but how many 19:01:54 as much as it needs 19:02:03 or what's in b 19:02:05 you mean not use b? 19:02:11 no 19:02:18 i was just thinking 19:02:25 should the b affect to every instruction 19:02:39 or do instruction take the amount of argument pixels they need 19:02:50 some instructions will have a constant number of arguments, so then it is not needed 19:03:03 like copy_area 19:03:06 yeah 19:03:09 that's what i meant 19:03:15 so we don't really need it 19:03:35 but it is nice because we can have functions with a variable number of args 19:03:43 yes 19:03:46 but perhaps we can find better use for b 19:03:57 hmm 19:04:20 by the way, as well, when there are those argument pixels.. 19:04:37 should the instruction take data from their r and g and b 19:04:45 or only for example g 19:04:50 I'd say that should depend on the instruction 19:04:56 yeah 19:05:01 copy_are should take all 19:05:06 yeah 19:05:19 but there must be a way to manipulate them individually 19:05:29 yeah, definitely 19:05:30 that is something b could be used for 19:05:40 hmm? 19:06:06 b determines whether values are taken from r,g,b or all 19:06:13 ah 19:06:23 that sounds clever 19:07:22 what about instructions that return values? should we restrict return values to 8 or 16 bits? 19:07:32 ah, i was just going to mention that 19:07:36 hmm 19:07:43 or should we overwrite the entire pixel at IP? 19:07:54 yeah 19:07:59 that could depend on instruction 19:08:04 true 19:08:28 that's probably the best way to do it 19:08:37 16 bit values could be divided into two cells, g and b, if wanted 19:08:46 but does anyone use that big number these days ;) 19:09:45 it happens 19:10:08 :) 19:10:14 the instruction could also just overwrite the arguments 19:10:25 yeah 19:10:50 but i think it's best to make that instruction-dependable 19:10:51 but then again, has to be different for each instruction 19:10:55 hehe. we agree 19:11:10 by the way, 19:11:16 if wanting to make bigger values, 19:11:36 naturally it could be that each r, g and b are for example 32 bit values 19:11:45 that in the beginning just get values from 0 to 255 19:12:13 but it wouldn't work in a visual interpreter 19:12:32 unless mod 255 19:12:35 ok, it would work 19:12:39 or something like that 19:13:11 anyways, i'm really excited about the visual interpreter.. that will be really nice 19:13:16 bah. 8 bits is more than anyone's ever gonna need, right? 19:13:24 yeah 19:13:39 maybe we should just keep all 8 bits 19:14:18 you should be able to address larger blocks than 8 bits though 19:14:25 like for copy_area 19:14:29 mmh 19:14:32 well, that's easy 19:14:39 just add two arguments for one value 19:14:42 yes 19:15:24 nobody will ever need to copy bigger than maxium 16-bit value width areas 19:15:34 hehe 19:15:42 :) 19:15:43 that's a pretty big image, yes 19:15:48 yeah 19:16:00 by the way, 19:16:04 about the visual interpreter 19:16:24 what resolution would be good? 19:17:20 do you need specific res? why not a windowed app? 19:17:27 no i don't need to 19:17:30 i just thought 19:17:47 what if the ip moves out of the window? 19:17:52 should the screen follow it? 19:17:56 scrollbars? 19:18:10 well, yeah 19:18:45 i'm not sure if can get this thing programmed, though.. i'm not that good with any real langs, not to mention that i should do something with graphics or gui 19:19:27 the largest image I've worked with is 29952 x 11520, so 16 bits should be enough :) 19:19:36 :) 19:19:38 yeah 19:19:40 well, lets make a spec first, and think about implementation later 19:20:10 I don't have time to work on an interpreter at this time 19:20:15 and let's someone else, say GregorR write the interpreter :) 19:20:26 -!- int-e has set topic: Uhm, where are these archives again?. 19:20:49 wait 19:20:55 http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ 19:21:11 -!- int-e has set topic: archives of previous discussions can be found at http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/. 19:21:25 thanks. I like to have that link in the topic. 19:21:38 this one is better formatted: http://meme.b9.com/~13835c5e839f38a85e97aeef~/cdates.html?channel=esoteric 19:21:38 yeah, it's useful there 19:21:59 i personally prefer the link i posted :) 19:22:45 less ugly link: http://meme.b9.com/cdates.html?channel=esoteric 19:23:33 anyways, kipple, about i/o. 19:23:44 i think the program should read the input from a file 19:23:49 and do the output to a file 19:23:55 ok. 19:24:05 we don't really need file output, but ok 19:24:21 i think it's useful 19:24:24 should they be images? 19:24:29 output? 19:24:34 both 19:24:37 mmmh 19:24:43 that'd be interesting idea.. 19:25:13 but then making it read for example normal text files would be quite difficult 19:25:18 yeah 19:25:30 but does it need to? 19:25:35 Apparently my powerful interpreters have gained notoriety :P 19:25:43 :) 19:26:04 the meme link is updated more quickly, I like that 19:26:18 -!- int-e has set topic: archives of previous discussions can be found at http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ and also at http://meme.b9.com/cdates.html?channel=esoteric. 19:26:19 don't let Gregor do it. then it will only ouput RXML! 19:26:28 :) 19:26:33 MUAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA 19:26:37 nooooooooo 19:26:40 RXML is great 19:27:16 Sorting mailbox...Segmentation fault 19:27:18 mutt sucks. 19:27:19 How about jpeg, so the program doesn't actually do what you programmed it to :P 19:27:26 haha 19:27:30 :) 19:28:12 cat would then be a whatever to jpg converter :) 19:28:30 heh 19:29:01 anyway, if we go with normal file IO it should be pretty straight forward I think 19:29:07 -!- CXI has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 19:29:11 yeah 19:29:32 May I suggest "nop" :P 19:29:38 well, yes 19:29:45 naturally there'll be nops 19:29:46 Since there doesn't seem to be any suggestion of a nop there :P 19:29:51 hundreds of them bwhahahaha 19:30:04 we haven't got that far yet! 19:30:11 Hhehe, OK :P 19:30:11 read/write could take arguments specifying the area to fill/read from 19:30:25 anything that is not an instruction should be NOP 19:30:42 indeed 19:31:16 anyway, did we agree on the canvas size? 19:31:23 infinite in all directions? 19:31:35 (negative coordinates) 19:31:58 iirc yes 19:32:07 but naturally we can change that if you want to 19:32:18 so, the source is placed at (0,0) but can move into negatives during exec 19:32:31 fine with me 19:32:35 ok then 19:33:01 then we need negative numbers in arguments :) 19:33:10 aarg 19:33:26 well, what about using the 16 bit values 19:33:33 well, we can do without, but it would be nice 19:33:38 wait 19:33:49 i was just thinking something and didn't realize to continue: 19:34:10 i mean if we're using 16 bit values, that are taken from two arguments (like g and b) 19:34:34 we could do the usual trick if the value is bigger than 16000 something 19:34:40 then it would be negative 19:35:08 we could just treat it as a signed integer. no need to do tricks 19:35:21 yeah 19:35:26 16383. and you mean the same thing 19:35:29 that's what i was trying to say :D 19:35:39 I would suggest some sort of bignumish support for having numeric values in the gb-rgb-rgb-... stream. 19:35:39 ok :) 19:36:02 So that you can truly support infinite area. 19:36:05 hmm. actually should be 32767, byt that's ok (or did you use another bit for something else?) 19:36:45 int-e: you are correct 19:37:19 ah 19:37:21 yes 19:37:44 btw, i need go for a while.. i'll be back soon.. 19:37:48 20 mins 19:38:38 I'll probably be gone then 19:59:29 ok 19:59:35 still here :) 19:59:39 :) 19:59:46 updated the wiki article 19:59:50 ah 19:59:55 with some suggestions for G 20:02:33 about file io; 20:03:02 perhaps we could have instructions for getting the next byte and outputting only one byte? 20:03:43 yes 20:04:09 good, because i want to make the traditional digital root calculator :) 20:04:09 how about: if G is 0 then take argument from b? 20:04:25 hmm 20:04:37 what about the directions then? 20:04:59 if G > 0 take B number of arguments in the direction specified by G 20:05:12 yeah 20:05:28 should've thought about that before asking :) 20:05:33 yeah, that's good i think 20:05:43 that could apply to most instructions 20:05:59 yeah 20:06:59 so, should we have diagonal directions for the args? or just right angles? 20:07:17 i think diagonal would be better 20:07:32 yeah, why not. we're wasting enough bits already :) 20:08:32 or wait.. i meant by diagonal to read the arguments from the direction g tells.. 20:08:34 sorry 20:09:40 um. that's what I meant. Or maybe I am misunderstanding you... 20:09:45 ah 20:09:46 then 20:09:53 sorry, i didn't quite understand :) 20:10:09 anyways, that's what i think is the best.. to check the direction from g 20:10:17 yes 20:10:28 but how many directions are there? 4 or 8? 20:10:35 what would you say? 20:10:45 i'm fine with 4 20:10:49 I say, why not 8? 20:10:52 ok 20:10:57 that is good as well 20:10:58 though it will probably not be used 20:11:09 yeah 20:11:17 so, don't know really 20:11:27 how about the 8 knight jumps :P 20:11:57 hehe 20:12:27 at least we have many instructions to use.. 20:12:50 so, having 8 instead of 4 wouldn't hurt 20:13:58 what about comparing stuff? 20:14:13 should we have stuff that something is ==, > or i mean that return 0 if two values aren't same and 1 if they're equal and so on.. 20:17:03 hmm 20:17:34 or one instruction for each 20:18:03 yeah, one instruction for each is good 20:18:10 and the result could affect the IP, not return a value 20:18:16 hmm 20:18:19 that is good idea 20:18:33 yeah, that is better i think 20:18:35 all control flow should be via the IP 20:18:42 yeah 20:19:36 it could compare just g and b, but we should probably be able to compare larger values as well 20:19:50 (since we have plenty of instructions, perhaps we should have ==, !=, <, >, <=, >=?) 20:19:53 hmm 20:19:56 yeah 20:20:59 naturally it could be that those instructions just take more arguments 20:21:13 and not only g and b 20:21:53 how about: if G>0 then take arguments as normal. if G== then compare b to 0 20:22:19 if G=0 then compare b to 0 20:22:36 hmm, you mean in this specific instruction? 20:22:42 yes 20:22:44 ah 20:22:51 not bad 20:22:55 in all logical ops 20:23:03 yeah yeah 20:23:31 well, in general G=0 means use only B as arg. 20:23:40 yeah 20:24:13 by the way, what directions to use for the ip in those cases? 20:24:26 forward and backward? 20:24:31 what do you mean? 20:24:53 that if true, them let ip continue, otherwise turn the direction.. 20:25:04 i don't think reverse is good 20:25:14 yeah 20:25:25 how about: combining ==,> and < 20:25:42 if equal, continue forward. if greater go right, if less go left 20:25:53 hmm 20:25:54 not bad 20:26:08 that is clever 20:27:12 that instruction could handle all manipulation of the IP 20:27:24 yeah 20:27:29 anyway, now I gotta go. 20:27:31 see you later 20:27:33 ok 20:27:34 yeah 20:27:36 bye 20:54:10 -!- calamari has joined. 20:55:08 hi 21:01:12 hi 21:05:50 I think I'm going to abandon my 2-d language for now. I want to work on other projects :) What ever you guys come up with will be great anyways. 21:06:24 ok.. and thanks, i hope it's going to be great 21:07:06 good luck with the other projects 21:07:22 One thing I was planning to do differently was to use the lower 2 bits of each RGB, to give 6 bits to work with. This way it's harder to see the program, but it's still faintly there 21:08:12 2 bits would determine the next cell: straight, turn left, turn right, choose: ab right, a==b straight 21:08:26 and two registers a & b obviously :) 21:08:34 ok 21:09:03 kipple has made some very clever ideas for movement 21:09:24 that left 4 bits for an instruction.. so 16 instructions. I figured that multiple 4 bit chunks would be used for data 21:09:56 kinda like in asm ,where after an opcode is given, the next few bytes given are data rather than opcodes 21:10:14 yeah 21:10:27 I was reading some of the logs and you both ahve come up with some great ideas 21:10:35 thanks 21:10:47 it's very fun to do cooperative language 21:13:32 I have a Java 2D graphing program I wrote that should be able to be redone for whatever you need, in case you decide not to go with SDL 21:14:00 ok, thanks 21:14:42 writing the interpreter for this language will be quite hard i assume.. 21:15:00 are you going to be doing jix's spiral idea? 21:15:06 nope 21:15:55 it's nice idea but we want to make the language as simple as possible 21:16:02 and since there is no data pointer, 21:16:25 making the instruction pointer behave that would be difficult for the programmer :) 21:18:15 one thing I began to realize with mine is that if I limited the data pointer to the cell I was in, that would make it impossible to have an artibrary effect on a single memory location 21:18:40 so some kind of offset system or my box bushing or whatever might be needed 21:18:44 pushing 21:18:50 hehe 23:31:22 -!- calamari_ has joined. 23:48:26 -!- calamari has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 23:49:47 nite,, 23:49:49 -!- Keymaker has left (?). 2005-08-12: 00:33:16 -!- pgimeno has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 00:33:32 -!- pgimeno_ has joined. 00:33:51 -!- pgimeno_ has changed nick to pgimeno. 01:07:52 -!- pgimeno has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 02:21:30 -!- CXI has joined. 02:21:45 -!- heatsink has joined. 02:39:53 <{^Raven^}> calamari: how's the game coming? 02:39:56 -!- kipple has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 02:43:53 -!- int-e has left (?). 02:57:06 -!- sergacity has joined. 03:25:43 -!- J|x has joined. 03:33:54 -!- calamari- has joined. 03:37:14 -!- jix has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 03:42:27 -!- J|x has left (?). 03:48:34 -!- calamari_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 03:57:15 -!- calamari- has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 03:57:37 -!- calamari- has joined. 04:31:05 -!- heatsink has quit ("Leaving"). 05:27:00 -!- GregorR-L has joined. 06:33:35 -!- calamari_ has joined. 06:48:46 -!- calamari- has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 07:59:06 -!- GregorR-L has quit ("Chatzilla 0.9.68.5 [Firefox 1.0.6/20050716]"). 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:48:36 -!- CXI has quit (Connection timed out). 10:06:15 hehe, another one esoteric lang http://www.xbox-linux.org/wiki/The_Hidden_Boot_Code_of_the_Xbox 10:53:59 -!- kipple has joined. 11:12:43 -!- calamari_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 13:27:11 -!- jix has joined. 14:31:47 -!- ShinDerChan has joined. 14:31:50 hy 14:32:18 hi 16:17:08 -!- pgimeno has joined. 16:50:20 hello 16:50:35 GregorR: I love RXML XD 16:51:13 lol 16:51:15 Thanks :P 16:51:18 I suggest adding palette support and different color space rather than RGB to RXML 16:51:42 That could actually reduce the size though. 16:51:46 That would be tragic ;) 16:51:48 ;) 16:52:13 but different color space can be fun 16:52:16 OR I could make it have palette support, but by default that palette is every possible color (+ alpha!) 16:52:39 So there's a gigantic section at the beginning that's so huge as to still make RXML bigger :P 16:52:45 like ? :) 16:52:52 Exactly 16:52:54 :) 16:53:25 cmyk support 16:53:31 4 components vs 3 16:53:48 It has alpha. 16:53:51 jix: in fact there is 5 components because of alpha channel 16:53:53 cmyka 16:53:55 s/is/are/ 16:53:57 Heheh 16:54:12 cmyk has redundant data and that's good 16:54:18 CMYK*A (* = THE UNFATHOMABLE COLOR OF DOOOOOOOM!!!!!) 16:54:34 Actually, why stick to the visible range? 16:54:42 UV and IR 16:54:53 XTUROYGBIVRG 16:54:59 but UV and IR are additive CMYK are subtractive 16:55:03 you can't mix them 16:55:13 hmm you can 16:55:14 Which is why I used ROYGBIV there ;) 16:55:16 why not ^^ 16:55:35 we can use YCbCr... it used in jpeg to make compression better but in RXML it doesn't help :P 16:55:55 hey use mathematic function for discribing the whole spectrum! 16:56:18 f(frequency)=>intensity 16:56:30 and use xml math 16:57:06 16:57:23 AMNROYGBIVUXC 16:57:38 lol 16:57:47 oh 16:57:50 that's invalid 16:57:54 16:57:58 16:58:06 rAdio, Microwave, iNfrared, Red, Orange, Yellow, Green, Blue, Indigo, Violet, Ultraviolet, X-rays, gamma 16:58:08 jix: 1 is valid. 16:58:17 that is really cool and hard to convert and stupid 16:58:26 but you have the full spectrum 16:58:28 of course is also valid but is invalid 16:58:54 oh yes 16:59:12 Really, there's no reason to have the full spectrum, in such a case it ought to be 16:59:35 GregorR: no... that's not enough 16:59:47 Oh, it would also need a K. 16:59:52 Brilliance. 17:00:14 Something like that :P 17:06:17 expanding an idea of RXML, there should be something like WXML(Wave XML) for symmetry. 17:12:06 And RXML would be easily (?) convertable into WXML :))) 17:16:17 frequency=".." wouldn't work 17:16:23 because white is more than one frequency 17:20:26 -!- kipple_ has joined. 17:20:26 -!- kipple has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 17:21:33 * GregorR slaps his head. 17:21:36 Of course you're right.' 17:22:05 back to XML math functions *g* 17:22:14 How about XML audio. 17:22:26 GregorR: good idea 17:22:35 17:22:44 it should use wavelet transforms 17:22:48 but without compression 17:22:56 XD 17:22:59 because input and output of a wavelet transform has the same size 17:23:31 So, make it more compressable, then don't compress it. 17:23:38 yes 17:23:43 Sort of like for (i = 0; i < 1000000000; i++); 17:23:55 Watch that CPU spin :P 17:23:57 or do a reverse transformation on the original data 17:24:01 make it less compressable 17:24:06 lol 17:24:20 and use binary numbers 17:24:22 100101010.10101010! 17:24:36 and checksum for every sample! 17:24:44 And the default frequency is, instead of 44 or 48kHz, 44mHz 17:24:53 haha 17:24:58 Well beyond the ability for humans to tell the difference. 17:25:10 hmm well my harddisk is only 160gb 17:25:20 Oh, that could cause a problem then :P 17:25:42 maybe use 44 khz at the begining and 99 at the end 17:26:13 17:26:20 haha location! 17:26:31 location in nano-seconds 17:26:33 That way you could move around all the samples in the input XML :P 17:26:37 No, in samples. 17:26:42 ok 17:26:44 So it's ludicrously huge. 17:27:20 oh the samples have to be sorted by checksum 17:27:27 XD 17:27:28 it's invalid to not do it 17:27:38 and every decode has to check it 17:27:44 That makes it difficult, but not actually larger, so it's just sort of strange :P 17:27:50 (sorting all samples is sloooow) 17:27:59 and takes much ram! 17:28:03 Ah yes. 17:28:06 This is of course true. 17:28:26 Oh, and each sample has to have a name field, which must be at least 14 alphanumeric characters :P 17:28:35 yes 17:28:42 stereo! 17:28:54 Oy! You're right! 17:28:54 5.1! 17:29:11 channel="14char long channel" 17:29:14 ...<,/channel> 17:29:35 number, what was I thinking?! 17:30:08 no we have to store the x,y and z position and 3d rotation of the speakers and the volume of the speaker and the V range of the speaker 17:30:20 think of a V and how tall it is as V range 17:30:37 because there are speakers that make sounds in all directions 17:30:53 but that can't be done on per sample basis 17:30:59 lol 17:31:14 17:31:27 The channel has to have precisely the correct name to work. 17:31:42 no it has to be in the supported speaker table 17:31:48 but the table has some spelling errors 17:31:53 XD 17:32:28 17:32:29 channel="DLOBY Figital 5:1 Audoi Suwboofer" 17:32:38 haha 17:32:55 :P 17:33:22 DOLBY (registered trademark)... 17:33:27 AHAHAHA 17:34:13 BTW, the checksum has to be a 4096-bit hash. 17:34:29 amplitude="one thousand two hundred fifty two point three" 17:34:37 XD 17:35:00 I think roman numerals might be more esoteric :P 17:35:06 hahahahah! 17:35:10 that rules 17:35:16 but we have to use the 1000 notation 17:35:27 because a - over a letter means x 1000 17:35:42 but we can't paint - over letters in xml 17:35:47 Right 17:35:50 so we have to use a prefix notation 17:35:56 _V => 5000 17:37:06 Hmm, doesn't M = 1000? 17:37:16 yes 17:37:28 But that's a mere one character :) 17:37:43 they use _V for 5000 17:37:48 but we could use MMMMM 17:38:33 OK, I'm going to be crazy and do work now, see you later :P 17:42:50 -!- CXI has joined. 18:30:59 -!- Keymaker has joined. 18:31:05 aaargh 18:31:30 i got two wisdom teeth removed from my jaw 18:32:13 wasn't fun 18:41:58 I had all four of my wisdom teeth removed in one sitting. 18:42:31 argh 18:42:45 'tis no fun indeed. 18:42:45 i was lucky in that case 18:43:14 Have you gone chipmunk-faced? :) 18:43:25 heh a bit 19:33:25 -!- Keymaker has left (?). 19:45:53 -!- calamari has joined. 19:46:20 hi 19:48:55 hy 19:51:21 helo 20:00:45 i got all four 7. teeth removed 20:01:13 and i'll get the wisdom teeth removed too... 20:01:30 Hmm, jix has tooth problems? 20:02:07 to many tooth for my jaw... 20:03:03 i had braces for many years too 20:08:28 I had braces for two years ... and the (evil) Herbst (sp) Appliance 20:09:44 never had braces, and only one cavity.. 20:10:09 did have to get my wisdom teeth taken out, though 20:10:47 <-- not as wise anymore.. guess that's how I fell for all this esoteric stuff hehe 20:13:19 I have a retainer permanently affixed to my lower teeth :P 20:13:29 Yeah, that's right! I'm a cyborg! WOOOH! 20:15:00 I have a calculator watch semi-permanently attached to my left arm.... :( 20:15:25 I have an onHandPC wrist PDA. 20:15:34 Your move, calamari ;) 20:15:58 nerd! :P 20:16:12 Damn right! Damn proud! Damn ... well, you get the picture. 20:16:13 i have a computer-mouse in my hand 20:16:14 is it programmable? 20:16:21 calamari: Yup 20:16:30 cool.. how long do the batteries last? 20:16:39 About 2mo. with regular use. 20:16:45 not too bad 20:17:16 this casio watch the batteries last years.. wonder if a programmable watch could be made to last that long 20:18:07 That would be awesome. 20:18:38 i'd like to have a little programmable device... 20:18:57 hmm i have my ti89.. but ti-basic sucks and ti-gcc is winonly 20:19:15 only need 8 instructions.... ;) 20:19:20 stupid delphi-writtin binary converter... 20:19:31 calamari: yes but i don't have "them" 20:19:59 my calculator is able to solve complex equations but there is no brainfuck interpreter 20:20:09 I think it's a well-established fact that you do NOT need 8 instructions :P 20:20:20 I wrote a bf interp for ti-82.. wonder if it'd work 20:20:52 GregorR: yeah, but you understood my cryptic comment, so it was effective :) 20:21:03 calamari: no 20:21:07 ti89 basic is different 20:21:16 calamari: I don't know if I would consider that as cryptic on this channel ;) 20:21:19 well, write one.. would be very easy for you 20:21:35 calamari: no because input/output handling sucks! 20:21:55 I want to write another for my hp48, but only after I learn how to do it in ASM 20:22:10 and there are programs and functions.. functions may return values... but may not use IO .. programs may use IO but may not return values that's STUPID! 20:22:30 jix: iirc I used vectors for i/o 20:23:20 calamari: but i want to use the I/O screen for I/O 20:23:59 one sad thing is that the newer casio watches are all fat.. I guess they don't remember how to make em slim anymore. had to get this one off ebay 20:25:27 i thought about designing my own cpu+computer 20:25:45 my brother has a fpga... but the software is windows only... 20:25:55 http://tigcc.ticalc.org/linux.html 20:26:03 GregorR: i'm on osx 20:26:13 and it uses x86 only parts 20:26:16 It says that it tries to be *nix-compatible 20:26:18 Oh 20:26:19 would need custom lcd's for the watch too.. bet that's not cheap 20:26:20 Lame. 20:26:33 Well, soon enough, you'll be on x86 too BWAHAHAHHAAHAHAHAHAH Intel wins. 20:27:20 i'm going to build my own computer based on 1802 cpus 20:27:41 haven't heard of that one.. when was it manufactured? 20:27:47 76 20:27:58 about... 20:28:04 "I am also maintaining compatibility with Linux on non-x86 platforms and with other Unices (*BSD, MacOS X etc.)." 20:28:16 nice.. I was building an 8085 based computer but never finished it 20:28:17 but it doesn't work 20:28:19 i tried it 20:28:23 Wow. 20:28:24 That sucks. 20:28:44 maybe the newest version works 20:28:51 he says he fixed something 20:28:53 with osx 20:29:22 the setup was strange anyway 20:30:18 i wanted to try it cause there was a new working ti-emulator for non windows then... 21:25:21 -!- lament has changed nick to liebentstraume. 21:25:36 -!- liebentstraume has changed nick to liebenstraume. 21:26:08 -!- liebenstraume has changed nick to liebestraume. 21:42:33 -!- {^Raven^} has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 21:42:58 -!- {^Raven^} has joined. 21:56:05 -!- ShinDerChan has left (?). 21:58:07 -!- Keymaker has joined. 22:27:23 just curious, is the second part of this song title in a language any of you guys know? Fishbirdmittemellan 22:27:47 mmh 22:27:54 haven't heard before 22:28:02 sounds like combination of english and german 22:28:25 how about Rabarbersaft 22:28:46 sounds german 22:28:56 :) 22:29:01 not sure, since i haven't read it for two years 22:29:15 np, thanks :) 22:30:01 let's take a look at good ol' babelfish: translate Rabarbersaft from German to English.. the result is: 22:30:02 Rabarbersaft 22:31:09 Let's play IRC cherades! 22:31:22 :) 22:31:29 * GregorR holds up one finger. 22:31:47 hmm, some www searches shows Finnish.. maybe? :) 22:32:04 mittemellan is swedish 22:32:21 what does it mean? 22:32:33 * GregorR guesses: birdfish. 22:32:40 Fishbird rather 22:32:44 :) 22:32:56 my guess too, but who knows hehe 22:33:13 calamari: no idea, i don't speak swedish 22:33:48 rababersaft is rababer? juice 22:33:55 i would guess mittemellan means hybrid 22:34:09 there's people who speak swedish in #haskell, you could ask them :) 22:34:47 hmm yes, it sounds like swedish 22:34:55 i should have guessed/known that 22:35:05 can't remember what it means, though 22:35:09 found a swedish - english dictionary .. checking it out :) 22:35:16 (in case i have even heard it) 22:35:19 ok 22:35:38 calamari has a Swedish-English dictionary handy ... that's ... odd. 22:35:43 my gf is obsessed with swedish 22:35:52 she would probably know what this means 22:35:57 GregorR: online ;) 22:36:03 Oh :P 22:36:05 online 22:36:06 hmmm 22:36:09 birdfish online 22:36:11 makes sense 22:36:20 * Keymaker 's head explodes!!!!! 22:36:30 o_O 22:36:31 lol 22:39:53 rabarbersaft = Rhubarb Juice 22:40:16 definitely Swedish.. thanks :) 22:41:04 mitt = my and emellan = between ... my between? 22:42:04 i thought it was something between stuff too 22:43:17 mitt= middle, mellan =between 22:43:38 cool.. was breaking up the word wrong.. thought it was mitte 22:44:54 so, half-fish half-bird.. hehe 22:45:47 -!- {^Raven^} has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 22:48:04 -!- {^Raven^} has joined. 22:49:22 hrm.. I think I'm going to need a 3 word parser for my game 22:49:43 that's going to complicate things 23:08:14 hmm 23:08:24 i think i'm going to sleep 23:08:41 nite 23:08:43 -!- Keymaker has left (?). 23:08:53 -!- ZeroOne_ has changed nick to ZeroOne. 23:49:10 hrmmrm 2005-08-13: 00:02:24 -!- calamari_ has joined. 00:08:03 -!- calamari has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 00:08:20 -!- Graph has joined. 00:08:59 hey talk 00:09:21 GregorR: talk! 00:09:34 ok it works 00:10:23 graph is a social network bot 00:10:59 it analyzes who talks and paints: http://macintosh.jix.qz-b.de/graph/esoteric/esoteric-current.png 00:12:48 boring... 00:13:02 hi jix 00:13:10 calamari_: hi 00:13:29 i thought that bot is pretty cool 00:13:31 listening to some old mods while I work out the details of my adventure game 00:13:43 hehe mods are cool 00:14:00 hey, that's neat 00:15:30 {^Raven^}: putting you on the graph ;) 00:15:49 {^Raven^}: /me too 00:16:21 GregorR: hey 00:16:59 do you do the graph drawing/centering yourself? 00:17:11 no i'm using a ready to run java bot 00:17:29 but i thought about writing something like this in ruby 00:17:34 but i don't have enough time atm 00:18:52 you could have it follow the conversation 00:19:06 would never be perfect, but close enough 00:19:14 follow the conversation? 00:19:31 I don't have to say "jix" but you know I'm talking to you, because I said jix: earlier 00:19:39 the bot does that 00:21:51 test: abc 00:23:13 * GregorR wonders why calamari_ hey'd him ... 00:23:35 GregorR: http://macintosh.jix.qz-b.de/graph/esoteric/esoteric-current.png 00:23:50 social network diagram 00:24:11 -!- calamari_ has changed nick to calamari. 00:24:29 ok nick changes work 00:24:34 So if I say "jix R teh rawx0rz" often, it would show a more bold link between you and I? 00:24:48 GregorR: yes 00:24:55 hi, sorry to be late to the previous half-bird half-fish discussion... this is not exactly that but it's not very unlike that: http://funny.evilbunny.org/display/1738/ 00:24:55 but you don't have to highlite me 00:25:11 pgimeno: hey http://macintosh.jix.qz-b.de/graph/esoteric/esoteric-current.png 00:25:23 I've seen that, jix 00:25:35 I already knew about it from a guy called FennecFoxen 00:25:40 pgimeno: hehe, that's cool 00:25:48 GregorR: it is "intelligent" and just "knows" when we talk 00:25:56 *spooky* 00:26:45 it's not very difficult... it just spies on when people write lines after each other. 00:27:15 calamari: yeah, I loved that image... it's in my Evilbunny favourite list 00:27:42 ZeroOne: yes the graph drawing is more difficult.. 00:27:55 jix: well, that sure is 00:28:35 as is this one (slightly more related to this channel's topic): http://funny.evilbunny.org/display/1808/ 00:28:42 but it doesn't take much of artificial intelligence to see people send messages to each other turn by turn 00:28:53 I did some graph drawing for a class a few sesters ago.. I just constrained the points to a big circle 00:28:54 and then notice that hey, maybe they are talking together 00:29:21 pgimeno: LOL 00:29:42 ZeroOne: that's why i quoted the words 00:30:37 ok, apparently my sense of humor then just went to sleep before me. ;o 00:30:46 hehe 00:32:39 oh btw, mtve, thanks for the link to that xbox page, I loved it :) 00:37:06 this one not bad either (image file name is 'how-to-export-crypto-system-from-USA.jpg'): http://funny.evilbunny.org/display/1952 00:41:38 lol 00:45:23 What's the original software for that social network diagram? 00:46:47 Bravo Gregor, way to read the tagline on the image before asking a stupid question. 00:57:16 -!- jix has quit ("Bitte waehlen Sie eine Beerdigungnachricht"). 01:03:59 cpressey: hello 01:04:01 cpressey: shut up 01:04:11 cpressey: stop trying to confuse the social network tracking software! 01:06:41 -!- cmeme has quit (No route to host). 01:28:22 it apparently associates a yet unknown commenter with the writer of the last line 01:31:29 -!- calamari has left (?). 01:31:52 -!- squid has joined. 01:32:12 fizzie: test 01:32:43 -!- squid has changed nick to calamari. 01:33:07 cool, broke it :) 01:33:57 or did it erase me when I left? 01:34:18 brb 01:34:19 -!- calamari has left (?). 01:34:44 -!- calamari has joined. 01:35:01 nope.. guess I just confused it :) 01:35:20 sup, suppy? 01:35:23 -!- pgimeno has changed nick to suppy. 01:35:29 pgimeno: fine, thanks 01:35:35 -!- suppy has changed nick to pgimeno. 01:35:41 glad to hear that, suppy 01:36:00 lol 01:36:15 nah, didn't work 01:36:22 not loading for me 01:36:37 ahh, there it goes 02:06:23 -!- heatsink has joined. 04:07:34 -!- heatsink has quit ("Leaving"). 04:15:19 -!- CXII has joined. 04:21:03 -!- CXI has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 04:25:11 -!- kipple_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 04:26:31 -!- calamari has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 04:53:38 -!- calamari has joined. 07:36:42 -!- pgimeno has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 07:37:22 -!- pgimeno has joined. 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:21:10 -!- calamari has quit ("Leaving"). 08:21:19 According to the social connections image, I don't talk to calamari at all. 08:48:39 -!- GregorR-L has joined. 09:42:46 -!- GregorR-L has quit ("Chatzilla 0.9.68.5 [Firefox 1.0.6/20050716]"). 11:32:08 -!- jix has joined. 11:32:41 -!- kipple_ has joined. 11:43:14 moin 12:25:25 -!- CXII has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 12:25:45 -!- CXII has joined. 12:48:35 -!- Graph has quit (Remote closed the connection). 12:49:40 -!- Graph has joined. 12:50:07 -!- CXII has changed nick to CXI. 12:50:18 -!- Graph has quit (Remote closed the connection). 12:50:22 arg 13:16:01 -!- Graph has joined. 13:19:38 graph is back 13:19:46 it works now 13:20:02 i had to reset the graph 13:20:26 http://macintosh.jix.qz-b.de/graph/esoteric/current.png (still the old image but if we talk it gets updated) 15:34:49 it's boring here 15:35:09 GregorR: do something un-boring 20:55:47 -!- Graph has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 21:22:28 -!- calamari has joined. 21:25:05 hi 21:37:39 I'm insulted. 21:37:40 -!- kipple_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 21:37:48 Are you suggesting that I never do anything un-boring? 21:37:49 *sobsob* 21:38:19 hi Grebor ;) 21:38:34 (j.k.) 21:38:43 *sobsob* 21:39:38 anything exciting today? cmeme seems to be mia 21:41:23 No, I'm just waiting for DirectNet-related emails. 21:41:25 That's all. 21:41:53 have you done any 3d programming? 21:42:05 A tiny, tiny bit. 21:42:56 Because network programming > 3D graphics 21:43:31 I think it'd be cool to see that new gravity/motion esolang implemented in 3-D, showing the orbits 21:44:16 http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Gravity 21:44:32 Yeah, I saw it 21:45:32 maybe Java 3D 21:45:47 since that doesn't require a #-D card afaik 21:47:22 use opengl because java 3d has problems 21:47:27 oh, hmm.. only 2d 21:47:35 Java3D has the freaky HiResCoord class. A 3-element vector of 256-bit fixed-point (128.128) numbers. 21:47:45 "This coordinate system is sufficient to describe a universe in excess of several billion light years across, yet still define objects smaller than a proton." 21:48:26 -!- GregorR_ has joined. 21:48:34 So THAT'S what that quit menu does. 21:48:46 GregorR: haha 21:48:51 -!- GregorR has quit (Nick collision from services.). 21:48:54 -!- GregorR_ has changed nick to GregorR. 21:49:13 I thought Gravity was 3-D.. oh well! 21:49:22 i need a cryptographic secure 1 bit hash function 21:49:39 How 'bout "parity" :P 21:50:13 "You might get some hash collisions with that." 21:50:19 lol 21:50:29 no it's possible to calculate a msg with given parity using simple math! 21:51:14 well it's always possible to do this with a 1 bit hash 21:51:23 some_number + hash 21:51:32 figuring out some_number should be easy 21:51:47 ok i need a 2 bit hash 21:51:50 lol 21:52:32 maybe i should calculate the WHIRLPOOL hash of the msg and take the parity of all even and all odd bits 21:52:38 WHIRLPOOL is very secure 21:52:44 so my 2 bit hash is it too 21:53:16 It's probably quite easy to calculate a message with the given 2-bit hash, too, with simple brute-forcing. 21:53:21 i'm going to encrypt all my msgs using double rot13 and sign them using my 2 bit hash 21:53:48 fizzie: psshhh i'm going to sell this technology to m$ 21:53:54 don't tell them 21:53:55 Well, it sure sounds secure. 21:54:25 and why use prime-numbers for RSA/DSA? they are so hard to compute 21:54:40 why not use 2^n+n? 21:54:45 how about digital root mod 26 21:55:03 or mod 2 heh 21:55:04 mod 26? 21:55:13 no digital root is insecure 21:55:14 They'll ask you how you will be able to recognize the odd bits (as opposed to plain old normal, non-odd bits) in messages. 21:55:16 WHIRLPOOL is secure 21:56:32 fizzie: i'll tell them that i load all bits in an exel 2020 table and take every 2nd!(they like usage of their products) 21:58:59 And where do you draw the line! Are all the bits in odd words (or out-of-context-words, like pallokala) considered odd. 22:00:57 yes! i'm using word 2020s grammar/spelling checks for detecting odd words 22:15:57 wait.. is Gravity not supposed to be able to be implemented? 22:21:43 -!- kipple has joined. 22:51:24 -!- jix has quit ("Bitte waehlen Sie eine Beerdigungnachricht"). 23:19:25 -!- calamari_ has joined. 23:38:39 -!- calamari has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 23:54:09 -!- lindi- has quit (Remote closed the connection). 2005-08-14: 00:20:09 -!- sergacity has quit. 01:08:37 -!- cmeme has joined. 01:08:57 -!- cmeme has quit (Remote closed the connection). 01:09:39 -!- cmeme has joined. 01:24:47 -!- {^Raven^} has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 01:25:46 -!- {^Raven^} has joined. 03:19:36 -!- calamari- has joined. 03:36:54 -!- ramkrsna has joined. 03:37:01 -!- ramkrsna has left (?). 03:37:07 -!- kipple has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 03:38:26 -!- calamari_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 06:40:45 -!- calamari- has quit ("Leaving"). 07:52:01 -!- lindi- has joined. 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 09:02:20 -!- int-e has joined. 11:07:19 -!- jix has joined. 11:52:09 -!- jix has quit (Remote closed the connection). 11:52:18 -!- jix has joined. 11:59:25 -!- kipple has joined. 12:00:16 -!- jix has quit ("Bitte waehlen Sie eine Beerdigungnachricht"). 12:18:14 -!- jix has joined. 13:10:08 -!- kipple_ has joined. 13:10:08 -!- kipple has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 16:09:52 -!- kipple has joined. 16:09:52 -!- kipple_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 17:30:01 .....tttzzzzzZZZZZZZZZ 18:25:04 -!- Alunar has joined. 18:26:09 -!- Alunar has quit (Client Quit). 20:42:01 -!- et has joined. 2005-08-15: 00:12:38 -!- CXI has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 00:13:00 -!- CXI has joined. 00:23:13 -!- et has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 00:28:39 -!- GregorR has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 00:35:32 -!- int-e has quit ("Bye!"). 00:55:59 -!- GregorR_ has joined. 00:56:01 -!- GregorR_ has changed nick to GregorR. 01:40:38 <{^Raven^}> Gah! Netsplit city :( 01:52:41 idea: the sourcecode of the lang has to pass some random-number-tests 01:53:49 -!- calamari has joined. 01:54:14 hi 01:54:47 calamari: you missed my idea AND hi 01:54:52 02:53:44idea: the sourcecode of the lang has to pass some random-number-tests 01:55:16 which lang? 01:55:26 a new lang 01:55:43 it's hard to pass random number tests with non random data 01:55:47 -!- heatsink has joined. 01:55:52 hi, and yup 01:55:54 hmm lets say it is impossible *g* 01:55:59 moin heatsink 01:56:12 I disagree, pseudorandom data is not random data 01:56:18 i'm working on a little prng tester 01:56:31 hi pgimeno 01:56:38 hi 01:56:46 pgimeno: yes but there are some tests that say how much random-alike data is.. 01:56:58 there are lots, each specialized in one kind of failure of PRNGs 01:57:05 yes 01:57:26 just because somethign is statistically random doesn't mean that it is... it all depends on the source 01:58:07 calamari: i can generate true random data 01:58:16 by definition (for certain definitions, anyway) a PRNG is not a RNG 01:58:21 pgimeno: yes 01:58:23 if the only source is a computer algorithm, it's never really random 01:58:44 ack 01:59:02 http://www.fourmilab.ch/hotbits/ 01:59:43 http://www.lavarnd.org/ ;) 01:59:52 jix: that's an outside source of randomness :) 02:00:08 afaik there's an Intel chip with an integrated RNG 02:00:37 yeah.. the old Atari's had random number hardware as well 02:01:07 anyway, e.g. Malbolge would pass some (very loosy) randomness tests 02:01:24 calamari: that's why i said ack... 02:01:34 calamari: if the source is a computer algorithm its not random 02:01:38 it was pretty good too, because some of the cheesier emulators using stock C rng's produced artifacts in starfields because of the lack of randomness 02:02:16 jix: which tests will you be using? 02:02:48 calamari: i started with entropy 02:03:06 than a test i came up by myself 02:03:26 count all byte pairs 02:04:05 and generate entropy for every byte followed by another byte (entropy for all \x00\anychars... and \x01\anychar...) 02:04:18 take the difference of each entropy from 8 and square it 02:04:21 sum the whole thing 02:04:23 and output it 02:04:26 * calamari checks out an old book 02:04:34 maybe it has a name 02:04:38 but i came up with this 02:04:47 next thing i'm going to add is move-to-front entropy 02:04:57 move-to-front is an algorithm for reducing the entropy of data 02:05:02 shouldn't work with random data 02:05:12 chi-square test 02:05:16 i'm going to add common test later 02:05:22 chi-square is a common test 02:05:34 monte-carlo-pi too 02:05:56 arithmetic mean too... 02:06:37 mean dust coming off this book.. hasn't been opened in years.. hehe 02:06:53 i like random numbers 02:07:03 they are cool 02:07:29 maybe you can improve upon my bf lcg 02:07:32 I like them too 02:07:50 generate random #'s in bf with a fixed amount of memory 02:07:56 calamari: implement a mersenne-twister-something 02:08:12 hehe, was reading about that on wikipedia 02:08:21 ruby uses them 02:08:26 and they pass all test i did on them 02:08:26 decided to go with the lcg 02:08:46 oh and rule30 rng was very bad 02:09:05 MT works pretty well from a practical standpoint, yes 02:09:25 (though the final mapping step sounds a bit suspicious to me) 02:09:59 oh and the c code i write is bad as always 02:12:49 does work doesn't it? for(i=0;i<256;alphabet_positions[i]=i++); 02:13:09 sets alphabet_positions to {0,1...,255} 02:13:38 in ruby i'd write alphabet_positions=(0..255).to_a 02:13:41 but ruby is to slow 02:14:20 nope 02:14:29 that assignment has side effects 02:14:42 that's not valid C code IIRC 02:14:49 why not? 02:14:51 it compiles 02:15:10 the LHS uses a value that changes in the RHS; the result is undefined 02:15:39 hm? 02:15:44 oh 02:16:19 i hate c.. but it's fast.. and easy 02:16:25 please trust a little more on compiler optimizations :) 02:16:38 pgimeno: that wasn't speed optimization 02:16:43 that was code length optimizations 02:16:57 i hate to write much code for little things 02:17:01 for (i=0; i<256; i++) alphabet_positions[i] = i; not that different :) 02:17:08 a few bytes ;) 02:17:22 hhmm 1 byte 02:17:32 but that's a byte 02:17:33 ok, rename alphabet_positions to alpha_pos and save lots ;) 02:17:42 k 02:17:47 j/k 02:17:56 no that's a good idea 02:17:58 I tend to like descriptive programs 02:18:12 i too but c is long enough without them... 02:18:27 and pos is common for position 02:19:09 i like no variables at all 02:19:36 S K and I are enough.. 02:24:14 char 0..256 *256: 02:24:15 Entropy: 8.000000000000 02:24:15 Move To Front Entropy: 0.067858437841 02:24:50 true random data: 02:24:51 Entropy: 7.997362466417 02:24:51 Move To Front Entropy: 7.997344450382 02:25:10 pseude random data is the same 02:25:19 -e+o 02:25:31 psodo random data is tho samo 02:26:02 heatsink: 1x-e+o at the right position 02:26:33 yea, i understood :/ 02:27:12 * heatsink looks up movo to front entropy 02:27:53 dont look up that 02:27:57 that's s/e/o/ and not s/e/o/g 02:28:13 * heatsink found it on wikipodia 02:28:18 look up bwt and move to front 02:28:29 ok 02:28:49 I first knew it through bwt 02:28:56 * jix too 02:29:40 my own test is good for detecting some bits random some bits not-random but high entropy 02:34:08 some creative ideas for tests? 02:34:08 ooh, is nifty the burrows wheeler algorithm 02:35:30 no, just uncreative ideas. 02:35:59 heatsink: tell them.. 02:36:32 autocorrelation test; frequency count of each byte 02:37:06 frequency count of each byte does the same thing as entropy... 02:37:13 oh 02:37:48 if the frequency count of each byte/file_size is different than 1/256 it's lower than 8 02:38:05 but it's easy to fool with (0..256)*256 02:38:21 that doesn't happen with mtf entropy 02:38:55 autocorrelation test has some advantages with detecting VLCs 02:39:14 or, generally, non-8-bit codes 02:40:01 all my tests besides entropy have a larger "window" than 8bit 02:41:47 Hot Bit Entropy implemented 02:42:00 What's that? 02:42:10 entropy of last byte xor curren byte 02:42:14 +t 02:42:20 ok 02:42:38 if some bits change less often than other bits this one detects it 02:43:39 * jix has another cool idea 02:43:51 should help against bit-shifting algorithms 02:44:07 i try to come up with a prng and than how to detect it 02:44:46 Do you have a way to detect hashing-based prngs? 02:44:57 hm 02:45:02 don't know them 02:45:08 I've heard that sometimes people use MD5 as a PRNG 02:45:38 repeatedly perform a hash on the same 20 bytes and take the low byte as the new number 02:45:38 hm 02:45:59 that's difficult to detect 02:47:10 because they use cryptographic secure algorithms...(not 100% secure because it's possible to generate two msgs with the same hash) but if you only know the hash you can't construct a msg without brute forcing 02:49:45 -!- int-e has joined. 02:49:55 -!- int-e has left (?). 02:50:01 MD5 is allowed to destroy information though 02:50:10 yes 02:50:24 for msgs longer than the hash it does 02:50:39 only for longer messages? 02:51:07 no but it looses only a few bits sometime with shorter/same length msgs 02:51:29 they have a good distribution of the data over all bits 02:51:35 that makes them a good checksum 02:51:44 ah 02:57:01 hmm my unnamed algorithm seems to be good for many kinds of simple prng's 02:57:35 have you tested it on rngs? 02:57:44 (as a control) 02:57:57 i'm using /dev/urandom as a control 02:58:24 because true random is too rare for testing it with 64kb... 02:58:43 gpg uses /dev/urandom so it has to be pretty good 03:00:29 sliding bit entropy has a max value somewhere around 6.74... 03:01:30 hmm no 6.75 is possible 03:02:22 6.758 is the highest value i got 03:03:45 my randtester's binary is not random 03:05:23 ent is so much faster than my tool 03:06:18 I just made an md5 PRNG in python 03:09:38 do you want to test your tools on md5 hash output? 03:10:56 yes 03:12:37 #! /usr/bin/python 03:12:37 import sys;import md5;m = md5.new();seed = '\x000' * 19 + '\x014' 03:12:37 while 1:d = m.digest();sys.stdout.write(d);m.update(d) 03:12:47 ruby -r digest/md5 -e 'i="jix";10000.times{print i=Digest::MD5.digest(i)}' 03:13:27 the program needs to terminate because i pipe the date into the tester 03:13:37 ok 03:14:10 as good as urandom 03:14:13 using my tests 03:14:57 using ent's tests too 03:15:13 (chi square and monte carlo pi and serial correlation) 03:20:12 ok, well I'm going to bed. 03:21:04 -!- kipple has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 03:21:15 looks like you've got a quality prng. 03:21:28 night 03:21:30 quit 03:21:32 -!- heatsink has quit ("Leaving"). 03:21:36 -!- J|x has joined. 03:22:10 -!- jix has quit (Nick collision from services.). 03:22:12 -!- J|x has changed nick to jix. 03:29:36 gn8 03:29:42 its 4:30am here 03:29:47 -!- jix has quit ("Bitte waehlen Sie eine Beerdigungnachricht"). 04:35:28 -!- graue has joined. 04:35:33 hello everyone 04:35:40 how have things been in the esoteric community lately? 04:43:54 pretty boring I guess, bye 04:43:55 -!- graue has quit ("ircII EPIC4-1.1.12 -- Are we there yet?"). 05:12:09 -!- ramkrsna has joined. 05:35:07 -!- calamari has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 06:26:29 -!- et has joined. 06:47:23 -!- et has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 07:26:59 -!- ramkrsna has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 10:23:29 -!- kipple has joined. 10:42:44 -!- fizzie has quit ("Siirretaanpa sahkojohtoa, maalaavat muuten yli sen."). 12:23:46 -!- sp3tt has joined. 12:42:09 -!- kipple has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 13:19:01 -!- int-e has joined. 14:23:24 -!- jix has joined. 15:07:01 -!- jix has quit ("Bitte waehlen Sie eine Beerdigungnachricht"). 15:07:11 -!- jix has joined. 16:00:01 what.. Homespring website is down? 16:00:58 thank god there's the archive 16:17:36 -!- sp3tt has quit (Client Quit). 16:35:40 Oh Lord, thank you for the Earth, thank you for the rains that give us crops, thank you for the shelter that keeps us warm and dry, and thank you for www.archive.org, amen. 17:18:29 -!- int-e has quit ("Bye!"). 17:23:42 -!- jix has quit ("Bitte waehlen Sie eine Beerdigungnachricht"). 17:56:06 -!- ramkrsna_ has joined. 18:02:06 -!- jix has joined. 18:12:15 -!- jix has quit ("Bitte waehlen Sie eine Beerdigungnachricht"). 18:12:26 -!- jix has joined. 18:14:42 -!- Keymaker has joined. 18:15:16 'h' 'i' 18:16:36 mmmoooiiinnn kkkeeeyyymmmaaakkkeeerrr 18:37:30 -!- int-e has joined. 18:39:51 hello 18:40:11 (sorry, didn't notice something happened here :) 18:41:25 what why when? 18:41:28 hehe 18:41:52 -!- liebestraume has changed nick to lament. 18:42:40 I think that last e should've been an a ;) 18:46:35 -!- Kmkr has joined. 18:53:23 Graah, you closed your parens with a smily :P 18:53:39 (These parens are not closed :) 18:53:46 (These parens are closed :) ) 18:57:38 -!- int-e has quit (Remote closed the connection). 18:58:17 ()()())))()(()9()())(() 18:58:46 -!- int-e has joined. 19:01:10 * GregorR 's head explodes. 19:01:45 :( There are no parens here :) 19:04:51 -!- Keymaker has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 19:12:13 -!- Kmkr has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 19:20:46 -!- {^Raven^} has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 19:23:09 -!- {^Raven^} has joined. 21:23:06 -!- ramkrsna_ has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 22:17:49 :( nor here ): 22:18:29 {^Raven^}: and here? :] 22:18:35 whoops?! 22:18:41 i didn't wrote {^Raven^} ... 22:46:22 Yeah, suuuuure, tab-happy jix ;) 22:46:47 but {^Raven^}: is a funny smily 22:47:07 Let's see ... 22:47:12 it's someone with no tooth on the right eating Raven 22:47:19 ^^ 22:48:31 It's a guy wearing a silly hat with one eye and a broken noze, who's whispering while drooling into his beard, with one nipple and a sad animal at his feet. 22:48:42 s/noze/nose/ 22:49:02 uhm ok 22:49:04 sure. 22:49:33 A very specific smiley :P 23:15:49 reverse smileys are cool (-: (-; (-B d: 23:16:51 Upside-down smileys are cooler o^o 23:17:09 lol 23:17:21 invisible smileys rock: 23:17:31 WOAH man. 23:17:36 That rawk'd my world! 23:42:08 I started writing a MUD engine. 23:42:13 Not a good plan :P 23:42:25 One of those things that turns into an obsession really quickly. 23:42:49 why would one do such a thing? 23:43:07 I have a few ideas that I think would be cool. 23:43:17 (I know, very stupid reason :) ) 23:45:23 oh yes, ideas are a dangerous thing 23:47:29 * int-e thinks happy thoughts. 23:50:42 nGHGHAhaghaghAHG 23:51:02 bad idea to join #math.. can't sleep now have to find a solution for the topic 23:52:15 hmm 23:53:58 p(1)=1, p(2)=2 (1,1; 2), p(3)=3 (1+1+1; 1+2; 3)? 23:58:19 yes 23:58:53 i've found an algorithm (recursive) for p(n) 2005-08-16: 00:01:21 uh and it doesn't work 00:02:35 mv * #math ^^ 00:02:46 oh, partition counting 00:02:52 jap 00:07:22 i don't see why my algorithm doesn't work 00:07:27 it work's with paper an pencil 00:10:49 hmm, what does it do? 00:14:45 hum 00:15:18 i have a function helper(n,k) that prints all partitions of n using number <=k 00:15:25 but it doesn't work 00:15:31 and i'm telling what i've done in ruby 00:15:45 i did something different on paper.. 00:16:53 hmm, it's easier to calculate the partitions of n that use exactly k numbers. 00:17:20 yes 00:17:20 calculate -> count. 00:17:32 found that on mathworld 00:17:43 hm 00:18:33 I got some answers on algorithms for calculating p(n) in sci.math some time ago... 00:19:30 the triangle of P(n,k) (partition of n with k numbers) looks like: go up 2 + go up 2 go left 1 00:19:37 but it only looks so 00:19:56 i should sleep 00:20:04 P(n,k) = P(n-1,k-1)+P(n-k,k) 00:20:06 :) 00:20:31 i know 00:20:35 the first gives the number of partitions that have a 1, the second one those that don't. 00:20:41 I loved it Ö= 00:20:43 :) 00:21:10 german keyboard layout? 00:21:20 I'm not at home ;) 00:21:24 ah 00:23:44 Oooh, Ö is an excellent one-character smiley 8-D 00:24:25 ü 00:24:29 ë 00:24:33 hehe 00:24:37 ÿ 00:25:01 i can write a ÿ with only 3 keypresses 00:26:47 hmm. I don't know if this X server config has a compose key. 00:34:34 oh, I was wrong; my post was about Landau's function g, not about the number of partitions 00:34:50 http://groups-beta.google.com/group/sci.math/browse_thread/thread/68a794c6d85c11d8/ 00:35:58 I just wrote this ÿ with no keypresses. 00:36:06 GregorR: copy and paste? 00:36:11 Yup :P 00:36:14 ctrl-c ctrl-p? 00:36:15 4 00:36:20 Of course not! 00:36:21 I'm insulted! 00:36:25 ok 00:36:27 X11 left-middle 00:36:28 mouse 00:36:38 ^_^ 00:36:44 but that are 2 mouse clicks 00:36:48 1 for selecting 1 for pasting 00:36:50 easy with unicharmap 00:36:55 Note that I was careful to say "keypresses" :) 00:40:23 ok I have three solutions for the #math problem ... that's all with n<1000000. 00:40:26 -!- jix has quit ("Bitte waehlen Sie eine Beerdigungnachricht"). 02:06:23 * {^Raven^} is a smiley ??? 02:06:34 yes 02:06:44 <{^Raven^}> intwiggling 02:07:13 it has everything, a left face side, {, a left eye, ^, a weird looking nose, Raven, a right eye, ^, and a right face side, } 02:07:26 ^o^ 02:07:37 <{^Raven^}> erm... they're my wings... 02:08:14 <{^Raven^}> lol 02:08:39 hehe. 02:16:37 good night 02:16:40 -!- int-e has quit ("Client exiting"). 02:35:20 taxonomy of smileys? 02:49:28 -!- int-e has joined. 02:49:38 -!- int-e has left (?). 03:04:12 -!- GregorR has quit ("Chatzilla 0.9.68.5 [Firefox 1.0.6/20050716]"). 04:34:11 -!- calamari has joined. 04:46:36 -!- cmeme has quit (Connection reset by peer). 05:59:05 -!- cmeme has joined. 05:59:24 -!- cmeme has quit (Remote closed the connection). 06:00:05 -!- cmeme has joined. 06:50:46 -!- calamari has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 06:52:07 -!- calamari has joined. 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:15:21 -!- CXI has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 08:15:48 -!- CXI has joined. 09:45:26 -!- calamari has quit ("Leaving"). 11:41:02 -!- jix has joined. 13:57:15 -!- int-e has joined. 14:14:58 -!- GregorR has joined. 15:02:17 -!- CXI has quit ("If you're reading this, it's probably xchat's fault."). 15:03:44 -!- CXI has joined. 18:02:12 -!- wildhalcyon has joined. 18:04:18 -!- wildhalcyon has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 18:04:49 -!- wildhalcyon has joined. 18:06:08 Hola! 18:06:13 hola 18:06:50 Hows it going? 18:08:48 -!- wildhalcyon has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 18:08:58 -!- wildhalcyon has joined. 18:09:06 Bah! I hate my ISP 18:11:03 -!- wildhalcyon has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 18:14:17 -!- CXII has joined. 18:15:54 -!- CXI has quit (Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)). 18:30:54 -!- WildHalcyon has joined. 18:31:07 Maybe this time I'll actually *stay on* 18:33:00 probably not. 18:33:22 So far. I switched clients, that might have helped too 18:35:50 Lament, are you an esolang developer? 18:36:52 I am a professional esolang senior architect 18:37:01 I work for NASA developing esolangs 18:37:35 Glad to hear it. I bet NASA pays eso-dev senior architects pretty handsomely 18:40:14 there's also the fame 18:40:24 the Shuttle computers run software written in my esoteric languages. 18:40:59 they used Brainfuck before, but they needed something more specific 18:41:48 Yeah, I heard they're trying to blame BF for the tiles breaking off. 18:42:31 -!- Gs30ng has joined. 18:42:47 a stupid claim. Brainfuck never fails. 18:43:36 That's what I thought. You know how it is with those gov't types though.. always wanting to point the finger 18:44:39 lol 18:46:14 INTERCAL knows all about DC esolang scandals though, so its not like there's anything new 18:46:15 i thought they would program in trefunge to make it easier, like calculating a coordinate to launch the ship by a code cursor 18:46:58 You'd need a pretty big code space to do that with reliable precision, wouldn't you? 18:47:37 or would i rather use brainfuck with 3d codespace? 18:48:11 like, not only <> but ^v and /\ or something 18:48:16 Has anyone written a 3D bf derivative? I didn't see anything on the wiki 18:48:19 oops my mistake 18:48:30 i meant 3d memory space, not code space 18:49:25 WildHalcyon, there's definitely one with 2D, like with <> and ^v, but i have no idea with 3D one 18:49:44 3D memory space huh? A cube instead of a tape? 18:49:51 Ive seen SNUSP, I love it too! 18:51:15 http://www.esolangs.org/wiki/Hcbf 18:51:26 4D brainfuck variant, i think 18:51:41 good point 18:51:58 time cube 18:52:03 I haven't had a chance to fiddle with that yet... 18:53:30 Neither have I had a chance to try out the Funge-98 TOYS fingerprint, which regardless of use, has some great names 18:54:16 (Sorry, that was OT, but I was looking at it at the time. Today, I have the attention span of a chiuahua) 18:54:53 -!- int-e has left (?). 18:57:17 Seriously though, are either of you working on any languages? 18:57:52 -!- kipple has joined. 18:58:38 well i used to design a stupid esolang when i was newbie... 18:58:47 Im just curious, not for any particular reason. 18:58:51 if you wish i'll show the spec 18:58:52 Why was it stupid? 18:58:56 yeah 18:59:01 please! 18:59:04 it is just... inefficient 18:59:32 http://gs30ng.exca.net/udage/spec-en.xml 19:00:42 cool, thanks! I'll take a look at it 19:02:34 I was working on an esolang a while ago too, but decided to get back in it again recently 19:03:45 I had a bit of a stumbling block, and Im almost finished with the specification. 19:04:01 interesting 19:04:27 I remember reading about Udage.. it does look inefficient, but most esolangs are ;-) 19:04:52 i mean that i could make the spec shorter and clearer 19:04:59 I like the fact that its more of a pattern-matcher than using specific characters 19:05:31 well look 19:05:37 i got NOT and conditional jump 19:05:42 You probably could, but again - its esoteric. Shorter might not be possible, but clearer would be nice. 19:05:44 then i don't need NAND 19:06:06 i can make it with NOT and conditional jump things 19:06:25 i don't need any complicated operation like NANDN1 19:06:36 that's why i call it inefficient 19:07:30 or i could make it MORE complicated like harder than Malbolge to understand 19:08:11 Well, keep working on it. I don't like complex just for the sake of being complex. I like "quirky, see what you can do with this" 19:08:15 but currently it's not clear or complicated. like... halfway? 19:08:34 i agree to that 19:09:05 Malbolge ended up being quirky once someone figured out how to work with it, and it turns out that it does interesting things. 19:09:29 Before that, I wasn't too interested in it, because it was designed to be awful 19:10:44 i still don't even understand what it is 19:11:36 Its an evil evil language, all you really need to know unless you want to try to program in it. 19:13:39 well that's one of the core design goals in esolang 19:14:25 Perhaps. I really look at esolangs as 3 schools of languages: EVIL, novel, and jokes 19:14:39 and i also want to design a lang like that, turing-complete but takes several years to make a 'Hello World!' program 19:15:16 oh that's simple 19:15:19 Like LazyK? 19:15:30 i made a lazy k hello world 19:15:42 lazy k is very simple to programm 19:15:47 i made 99bob in lazy k too 19:15:59 I've seen the code for that... its.. er... messy 19:16:00 lol 19:16:24 WildHalcyon: it comes with a code generating tool 19:16:39 you just write a lambda term and it converts it into SKI combinators 19:16:42 oh, I wasn't aware of that. Well, that changes things 19:16:44 it's messy to do that by hand 19:16:50 it's possible (and i know how) 19:17:06 but it takes minutes for simple terms like \xyz.xzy 19:17:42 Ive wanted to design a Java2K-Befunge varient that occassionally switched the cursor orientation randomly. I guess I could just implement that with fingerprints 19:17:43 well we hardly can make an esolang code without any tools 19:18:13 but there ARE, who do that 19:18:15 :( 19:18:24 Yeah, tools are key 19:18:47 Well, only if you want to do a large project with them 19:19:36 i have an idea for a turing complete language and it will take hours to generate the first cat programm and years for the first hello world programm 19:20:17 sha1 each sizeof(sha1) bytes and do => 0 => [ 1=> ]... 19:20:18 from now on don't even mention of it for world peace 19:20:25 and execute it as BF 19:20:28 ...sha1 19:20:48 that is presented once, like MaD5 19:24:22 Im not a huge Turing-Tarpit fan 19:24:44 I am 19:24:55 BF is great, because its a fundamental esolang tool (most languages prove they're TC by using BF) 19:25:39 that makes sense 19:25:50 although i'd rather do it using TM 19:26:12 Anyhow, Gs30ng, good luck with improving Udage! Ive gotta go! 19:26:16 bbl 19:26:34 see ya 20:00:39 I think it's preferable to use BF as your intermediary rather than a true TM because BF is very VERY easy to read and parse. 20:40:30 that opens an interesting question... what TC language is the easiest to parse? 20:41:11 (easiest is a matter of intuition) 20:42:46 in Brainfuck the forward/backward loop matching imposes an inherent difficulty 20:42:59 perhaps OISC is simpler than BF 20:45:21 what TC language is the easiest to parse... perhaps non-esoteric lang is 20:45:32 but probably turing tarpit is 21:02:24 pgJon, of course 21:05:43 what the hell 21:05:50 pgimeno: Jot, of course 21:06:00 alternatively; 21:06:13 a variant of brainfuck: 21:06:34 instead of [ some code, N characters ] 21:06:38 write 21:06:58 [[[[[ (N times) [[[ some code 21:07:06 N opening brackets, then the code 21:07:35 first, that gets rid of an instruction, which is nice already 21:07:44 second, any string becomes a valid BF program 21:08:03 sorry, I should have said to parse and interpret 21:10:32 this depends on what language your interpreter is written in 21:10:51 lambda-calculus based languages are easy to interpret in other lambda-calculus based languages 21:12:57 easier than oisc? 21:14:14 oisc is pretty hard to interpret in lambda-calculus based languages 21:17:35 really? 21:18:07 well, I was hoping to reach some kind of an "universal" agreement on what is "easiest" in this context but it seems not to be so easy 21:18:33 Gs30ng: yes, there's usually no concept of an "array" as such 21:19:21 only functions 21:19:24 i think in this case you should make it clear like this: easiest to interpret in our brains 21:20:11 "easiest to interpret in certain of the commonly used languages" would probably be more precise 21:20:38 then it is oisc 21:20:50 um 21:21:08 in our brains, heh heh 21:21:11 but then again, what is easier: to write a conditional that tests the negativity, or to write the functions of lambda calculus? 21:22:10 it's too philosophical a question, anyway 21:23:39 no, just subjective 21:24:45 things like OOP concept is sometimes considered subjective 21:29:03 Hey, did I miss anything exciting? 21:29:42 hmm 21:30:04 lambda calculus and parsing BF... well.. thats sort of exciting 21:30:08 they seem not to be exciting 21:30:38 like, pretty important subject but i'm not *excited* :) 21:30:52 but this is also subjective 21:31:38 well, subjective is okay 21:32:06 i'd like to have a geometrical lang 21:32:07 i haven't fully used lambda 21:32:17 where you build the program out of geometric objects 21:32:26 like circle line polygon... 21:32:31 ellipse 21:32:40 sounds awesome 21:33:17 code should describe a vector image, right? 21:33:18 hmm but how could such a program work... 21:33:23 yes 21:34:23 i think the graph theory would help 21:35:03 but actually there are already some langs with it 21:35:13 polygons are instructions... 21:35:13 Ive seen some flow chart languages 21:35:21 lines are code-flow 21:35:38 WildHalcyon: yes but they arn't 100% of simple geometric objects 21:35:52 Uuuuuuuuuuuuuuse RXML :P 21:35:56 circles could be used as control structures 21:36:02 That's true, they're not 21:36:03 GregorR: problem 21:36:11 RXML doesn't support vector images 21:36:11 RXML would be an answer 21:36:13 Way too difficult to parse shapes? 21:36:16 really? 21:36:26 SVG would be good. 21:36:33 noo SVG is unesoteric 21:36:42 lol 21:36:47 is it? 21:36:52 You could make a language entirely out of ellipses, where each rational a/b mapped to an instruction 21:36:54 i'm going to invent a cryptic syntax for the vector graphics... 21:37:04 lol 21:37:05 I get esoteric results when I use it, it must be esoteric 21:37:09 Jix: What about using bezier curves? 21:37:31 WildHalcyon: hmm i think circle polygon and line are enough 21:37:31 jix: what if the polygons overlap each other 21:37:52 a line is a 2-face poligon isn't it? 21:37:59 polygon even 21:38:04 Jix: use bezier curves for the lines - that way you can use lines OTHER than straight lines 21:38:22 WildHalcyon: you can connect multiple lines 21:38:31 but i need to have a direction for a line... 21:38:45 the space not should be 2 dimensional 21:38:53 Gs30ng: it should 21:38:56 Well, however you implement it. Its your language after all ;- 21:40:08 jix: then how can you connect 2 polygons which locates like, unable to be connected by straight line 21:40:40 like there are some big polygons between them 21:41:35 Gs30ng: you can chain lines 21:42:00 and using circle control structures you can implement crossings 21:42:01 that would work 21:42:34 It might be easiest to use a null polygon (0 sides) for a NOP, to implement between two connecting lines to go around corners in that case 21:42:37 * jix is _drawing_ a spec 21:42:53 lol 21:43:17 jix: what about this.. are you gonna forbid to overlap 2 polygons? 21:43:33 Gs30ng: no but the behavior is undefined 21:43:41 or overlapped polygons could be another operation 21:43:58 Gs30ng: no overlapping circles give different control structures 21:44:08 but overlapping polygons give undefined behavior 21:45:05 a code with only overlapped figures 21:45:18 would seem truly esoteric 21:46:55 away 21:49:55 lines could seem a polygon 21:51:07 like, 3 lines connects 3 triangles, seem 4 triangle 21:59:55 Gs30ng: lines polygons and circles have different colors in source-view 22:00:21 well then i should make another lang 22:00:28 i want to have it monotone 22:02:57 i have a pretty cool file format 22:03:09 i have to complete it... 22:03:54 oh i have a question 22:03:58 what's that source-view 22:04:23 you mean you're gonna make an IDE? 22:04:26 the source format is a text document 22:04:42 but i'm going to display the source code graphically 22:05:06 oh, ok. 22:07:19 I think I need to use either rtf, html, or a combined txt + bmp for my esolang. 22:07:37 WildHalcyon: make your own format 22:07:54 I will eventually. Once I work on building the IDE 22:08:06 yes making a format it's easy 22:08:17 like you're to make a bitmap format then 22:08:22 format c: bitmap 22:09:08 I'll probably include a conversion utility as well - to go between the proprietary format and the other formats 22:11:12 question: is there any conversion library for swf format? 22:11:38 possibly to postscript? 22:12:02 my file format: 22:12:03 'ST0P' => Header (thats a zero in stop) 22:12:03 'O' x r y => Circle at x/y with radius r 22:12:03 'P' points{3+} => Polygon with at least 3 points 22:12:03 'p' y z => Polygon point 22:12:03 'L' y2 x x2 y => line from x/y => x2/y2 (x/y swapped with x2/y2 is equivalent) 22:12:05 number are in base -5 using 'q' as 0, 'w' as 1, 'e' as 2, and '@' as 4. numbers end with a 'r' and use 't' as decimal point 22:12:08 'X' comment => comment (you may use characters 's' 'd' and '.' for comments) 22:12:10 'STRAT' => EOF (yes it's not a typo its STRAT instead of START) 22:12:31 the comment feature is pretty useless 22:14:39 not 'O' x y r but 'O' x r y ? 22:14:56 jap 22:15:18 its 'L' y2 x x2 y .. 22:15:37 I love the comment feature XD 22:15:44 Xsd....dsdddd...sd 22:15:48 hrhr 22:16:29 the field is from -1,-1 to 1,1 22:16:35 but numbers have no sign 22:16:38 they use base -5 22:17:19 so the order is deliberately weird, to make it esoteric, right? 22:18:03 right 22:18:12 jesus 22:18:24 i love it 22:18:42 Its hideously evil in a delightful way 22:18:54 let's try to make a circle at point -1x 1y with radius 0.5 22:19:03 Oh Lord, Christ and Savior Jesus, may your holy glory bring peace to the lives of those less fortunate, and those who write esoteric languages, amen. 22:19:36 In the beginning there was INTERCAL... 22:19:41 XD 22:19:51 And God said it was good. 22:19:52 Im not used to using negative bases (Ive heard of them, but.. never tried implementing them) 22:20:35 he did? I thought after INTERCAZL, he had a stiff drink and took 2 1/2 months off and thats why we celebrate summer vacation? 22:20:40 *INTERCAL 22:21:12 grr negative bases are evil 22:21:23 You could always use the golden ratio base 22:21:24 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_mean_base 22:21:41 yeah but that's not as safe as base -5 22:22:07 hm.. safe, yeah that's important if your language ever ends up on the shuttle like lament's 22:23:38 afk 22:25:04 NASA guys are calling him by period to ask some questions about the spaceship air supplying system written in bf 22:26:40 a ']' is missing in the code so air supplying works for only few seconds 22:27:37 jix wrapped the whole code with [] and it appeared to work as well 22:27:44 Hmmm, they should get that fixed. Any certified BF.NET techs here? 22:28:31 but now the system resets itself continuously 22:29:02 *checking door panels* *doors open* *doors close (well after the astronauts have been flung into space)* *reactivating oxygen* 22:29:23 lol 22:29:41 And two loud POPs are (not) heard as the astronauts explode. 22:29:49 Then they're mad at jix, what a tragedy! 22:29:49 lol 22:30:03 I hope he's not fired 22:30:29 They can't fire him because they never hired him 22:31:29 as a professional esolang developer, jix was kidnapped by nasa guys and forced to design the system in bf 22:31:57 ...! Esolang slavery! 22:32:09 * Gs30ng pays one minute's silent tribute 22:34:55 poor Jix 22:35:23 actually in 90's, the system was written in Malbolge, designed by GregorR 22:35:44 (The system that enslaved jix that is :P) 22:35:52 I call it MalSlave. 22:37:53 GregorR wrote it in 3 minutes 27 seconds, and distributed it in open source, nasa took it 22:38:40 after several years nasa needed some new code for new modules, however no one but jix understood the code 22:38:54 that's why he've been kidnapped 22:39:06 Instead of me for some inexplicable reason :P 22:39:53 death is inexplicable, right 22:40:05 uh, aren't you dead GregorR? 22:40:23 -!- GregorR has changed nick to GregorR-OHNOAZOM. 22:40:34 -!- GregorR-OHNOAZOM has changed nick to ItsAZombie. 22:40:44 Braaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiins... 22:41:29 -!- ItsAZombie has changed nick to GregorR. 22:42:03 Brains huh? What part? 22:42:26 I've got a few lobes, a medulla, and then there's my spinal cord. 22:45:08 they learned to not kidnap crazy people MUHUAHAHAHAHAHAH! 22:45:25 that'll teach them 22:45:27 but they are crazy 22:45:44 mounting Sauerbraten.dmg 22:46:01 sauerbraten has to be a cool game 22:46:14 what does dmg stands for 22:46:19 it's written by wouter 22:46:23 s/stands/stand 22:46:25 Disk iMaGe 22:46:29 aha 22:46:39 every 2nd osx software comes as dmg 22:46:57 sauerbraten is from wouter (the one who wrote false) 22:47:17 http://sauerbraten.org/ 22:47:21 one who wrote false wrote a game? 22:47:25 Wouter is legendary 22:47:27 yes 22:47:34 WildHalcyon: i know someone who knows wouter 22:47:45 OMG 22:48:13 i don't even want to contact anyone who knows who knows wouter 22:48:18 he's called Tim Schröder 22:48:19 i don't wanna be kidnapped 22:48:23 I know someone who knows someone who knows wouter... err.. thats you, btw 22:48:49 WildHalcyon: i talk about real-life knowing 22:49:10 hmm.. yeah, thats different I guess 22:49:28 wouter doesn't sound like an actual person... like, consist with only source code 22:49:38 both wouter and tim worked at crytek 22:49:48 Gs30ng: it's his realname 22:49:49 Wouter van Oortmerssen 22:50:13 that lab researches how to cry? 22:50:20 what am i talking about 22:50:37 * Gs30ng reboots his brain 22:51:09 He should have wrote sauerbraten in False 22:51:17 lol 22:51:50 Wouter van Oortmerssen. sounds really typical guru name. like Guido van Rossum or something 22:52:53 if by guru you mean dutch, then yeah ;) 22:53:38 Oh, is it dutch? not german or something? 22:53:45 dutch 22:53:50 but i'm german 22:54:05 van = dutch, von = german 22:54:38 yes but von * in german isn't as common as van in dutch 22:54:43 afaik 22:55:26 doesn't von in german usually indicate nobility or something (at least in the past)? 22:55:37 now i see a few dutch person in computer science 22:55:43 yes 22:55:57 but haven't seen any Korean in this field 22:57:20 Ive known a few korean cs majors back in school 22:57:48 maybe they're all kidnapped by nasa 22:58:35 I was kidnapped by NASA, but they let me go because I was useless 22:58:49 who wasn't kidnapped by NASA 22:58:54 they only need some esoteric programmers 22:59:38 *sniff sniff* 22:59:41 I wasn't kidnapped by NASA 22:59:50 * GregorR feels left out. 23:00:02 because no one can kidnap a dead man 23:00:14 ..is that a challenge? :P 23:00:15 i feel really sorry about that 23:00:44 GregorR: are you dead? 23:01:08 i'm not gonna challenge you. i 23:01:14 Technically, UNdead, in that I resurrected to feast on the entrails of the living, but I'm not alive in the common sense *shrugs* 23:01:18 i'm not gonna be malslaved 23:02:38 Anybody want to help with my MUD engine? 23:02:50 Suggestion-wise, that is. 23:03:19 an engine that runs on mud? sounds good :) when can I get it for my car? 23:03:30 GregorR: you're going to implement it in ?? 23:03:48 C++ - sorry, it not not esoteric-related :P 23:03:56 kipple: spends ridiculously much mud 23:04:11 GregorR: do a -- please.. i don't know c++ 23:04:16 *g* 23:04:24 useless, yet 23:04:32 or use something else i know 23:04:39 lol 23:04:42 like ruby 23:04:50 or.. apple-script 23:05:03 While ruby would be quite appropriate for a MUD, I'll stick to C++ thank-you-very-much :P 23:05:04 or 1802 assembler 23:05:17 or arm asm 23:05:24 or ppc asm 23:05:24 ORK!! 23:05:35 or any asm that is not crappy-x86-asm 23:05:44 x86 asm is ugly 23:05:53 you do asm 23:05:55 impressive 23:06:00 Gs30ng: a bit 23:06:10 but i don't do x86 asm 23:06:20 Pff, RISC-junky 23:06:37 All the cool kids (read: lazy) use CISC. 23:06:41 because it's like uh we need 32 bit add this and that.. oh we need this do a little work-around 23:06:54 GregorR: define RISC and CISC 23:07:24 i just looked at x86 asm it it was ugly... 23:07:29 CISC: x86, x86-64, ia64 RISC: virtually everything else ever 23:07:48 Well, not "ever" 23:07:52 But "in common use" 23:08:09 Anyway, back to work :P 23:08:10 GregorR: and where is the difference at the asm level? 23:08:38 m86k asm is ok afaik and it's cisc 23:08:59 but x86asm is as old as m86k just with a lot of work arounds and additions to make it up to date... 23:09:30 arm assembler is pretty cool with the condition codes 23:09:45 but i don't know arm asm anymore.. stopped gba development... 23:11:18 i wan't to do asm programming BUT 23:11:32 i don't want to use ppc assembler because apple switches to x86 soon 23:11:40 i don't want to do x86 asm because its UGLY 23:12:45 i wan't to do arm asm but not for the gba.. and not for the ipod.. i need another arm machine 23:12:55 NO i want to design my own cpu with my own asm! 23:13:44 anyone around? 23:14:03 GregorR: what's your mud about? 23:14:32 or what's special about your mud 23:14:34 GregorR: ? 23:16:32 GREGORR 23:17:13 call me ignorant, but whats mud? aside from.. y'know.. wet dirt 23:17:46 multi user dungeon 23:17:49 -!- kipple has left (?). 23:17:51 OHHHH 23:17:54 good deal 23:18:14 hmm... 3D? 23:19:30 arn't muds text-based? 23:19:33 like text adventures? 23:19:41 GregorR: !?! 23:20:00 Are they? I thought you meant something like multi-player Dungeon Siege. 23:20:37 i thought i meant something like the muds where you use telnet to connect to mud.*... 23:21:58 GRÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄGORR! 23:23:10 he doesn't answer :( 23:23:22 That's a shame 23:23:39 Now I'll have to develop my own balanced-nonary befunge varient 23:24:52 didn't GregorR got back to work? 23:25:14 is that a reason to not answer?! 23:27:37 lol 23:35:02 Haha, I disappear. 23:35:12 Yes, it is, because I VNC into home. 23:35:34 So when I go back to work, I close my VNC window. 23:35:48 then don't go back to work 23:35:52 lol 23:35:59 Who does work anyway *shrugs* 23:36:06 i don't 23:36:41 But anyway, I'm writing it because of an itch and a few pet peeves. 23:36:44 What type of work does a flesh devouring zombie DO exactly? 23:37:04 For instance, most MUDs don't have a sky except when convenient, making "fly" spells worthless. 23:37:21 and could you clarify the MUD implementation? Is it text-based or graphical? 23:37:30 Text-based. 23:37:34 ok 23:37:40 WildHalcyon: pwnd hrhr^^ 23:37:43 * WildHalcyon is ignorant on the subject 23:38:01 * WildHalcyon was pwned 23:38:28 Also, anyone who uses the term "pwnd" in my MUD engine will find their character mysteriously dead. 23:38:40 :P 23:39:22 hrhr 23:39:48 i want to help you with the mud engine 23:40:16 What I mostly need are design suggestions - pet peeves about current MUD designes. 23:40:24 Designs, even. 23:40:48 (The engines that is, not the games) 23:41:50 i don't know much about muds 23:42:02 i don't know anything about muds 23:42:22 I haven't played a MUD in years. And I like the idea of punishing players who use stale l33t speak 23:42:30 And you don't know C++ :P 23:42:48 (That was to jix) 23:43:13 GregorR: i know it a bit 23:43:25 i know C and i know OOP 23:43:33 and i know a very little bit C++ 23:43:57 "PlayerFoo: Hah! You got pwned!" => "The sky god Y'jmal's wrath has been angered." => "You awaken in your own filth" 23:44:02 Well, I don't heavily use any of the incredibly C++-specific features, just classes and inheritance and maps. 23:44:18 maps? 23:44:27 i don't know the c++ syntax for OOP things 23:44:40 what are maps? 23:45:11 GregorR: maps? help me i don't know them! 23:45:56 a mud should have weather... weather is important 23:46:43 NASA seriously cares the weather 23:49:34 i don't know c++ maps 23:50:46 ah stl maps? 23:51:17 wait no that's something different i thought of 23:52:45 it's like a ruby hash? 23:53:06 {:a=>:b,:c=>:d,:d=>:d,:e=>nil}? 23:53:16 Ah, the good old STL 23:53:25 how I loathe thee with every ounce of being 23:53:38 hm? 23:53:54 Sorry, had to hit the boss alarm. 23:54:02 hrhr 23:54:07 map = hash (essentially) 23:54:10 a mud client should have a boss alarm key 23:54:17 map = hash of strings->int 23:54:30 jix: That brings up a fake bash shell with curious output on it? :) 23:54:42 if a user presses it the client plays a loud sound "I'M PLAYING AT WORK!!! FIRE ME!" 23:54:50 lol 23:54:59 hrhr 23:55:10 no fake bash is ok 23:55:19 that could be server side too 23:55:41 Part of the challenge is to make sure that telnet is a valid client :P 23:56:08 brb (again) 23:56:32 Im working on an esolang RPG project 23:56:40 WildHalcyon: lang? 23:56:56 Its my own varient of Befunge 23:57:11 how do you do graphics? 23:57:25 I haven't uploaded a spec or anything, because I don't have the instruction syntax done 23:57:41 Its console based, a roguelike game. 23:57:45 http://www.roguelikedevelopment.org/ 23:58:55 ah roquelike.. they are infinite cool 23:59:19 and i died the infinite stupidest way at nethack 23:59:46 I die a lot playing Crawl. Usually on the first or 2nd level. I've had two characters make it to the 5th. 2005-08-17: 00:00:15 I've reached the 40s in nethack with only one key. 00:00:18 i died as a knight in the first few moves because i fall from my horse 2 times 00:00:35 THats sad 00:03:16 i want to write a roquelike in asm 00:03:27 preferable some old cpu 00:04:10 Older the better 00:04:37 1802 is infinite cool 00:04:43 it's from like 1976 00:05:23 but i don't know a computer based on it that is roquelike-able 00:06:03 Hmm, yeah, that could be an issue 00:06:18 the voyager uses 1802 cpus 00:06:28 (the space thing...) 00:06:51 the NASA asked me for a cpu and i told them a random number... 00:08:32 * jix searches a computer at http://emulation.net/ 00:10:37 maybe i should use a 6502 cpu based computer 00:11:36 maybe i shouldn't start writing that because i won't finish that anyway 00:12:07 Might be a good idea. I haven't really started any details until I finish the spec... 00:12:20 I've got one more issue to deal with, then I think I can move on to the instruction reference and be done 00:15:00 I'll spend a while writing a manual and handy printable pdf reference chart, then work on the interpreter 00:15:28 And the dev tools I mentioned earlier - file format spec (easy) and conversion utility (relatively easy) 00:16:50 i'm going to write a mandelbrot renderer in 1802 asm and then mv self bed 00:17:09 Sounds good... I think 00:17:43 but i don't get how to controll PIXIE(b/w) graphic chip... 00:18:12 it uses the 1802 data channel to direct access the memory and slow down the cpu by stealing a few cycles 00:20:30 Hmm... 00:20:40 * WildHalcyon tries to do some vague research on that 00:20:58 the tinyelf emulator for osx is pretty cool for development 00:21:19 it has a mem viewer internal state viewer execution tracer breakpoints stepping... 00:22:01 and the 1802 has a SEX instruction 00:22:05 SEt X 00:22:36 lol 00:23:18 and you often need to set x 00:23:28 so 1802 programs contain a lot of SEX 00:23:45 hmm... never seen a chip that needs to be rated M 00:23:50 and even the voyager space thing has a lot of SEX 00:24:17 * WildHalcyon lacks an OSX machine 00:24:29 WildHalcyon: buy one 00:24:33 what about designing a SEX Programming Language 00:25:02 EOF -> orgasm or something 00:25:22 i may be kicked 00:25:40 Jix: Once I pay off my $70K student loans 00:26:01 my machine is 5 or 6 years old... 00:26:25 * WildHalcyon votes not to kick Gs30ng, provided he mentions John Holmes in the contributers section of his spec for the lang 00:26:51 i did some upgrades on it and it's still pretty fast 00:27:18 First order of business is to get a new linux box 00:27:22 who is John Holmes 00:27:47 An actor from the 70s 00:28:00 John Holmes, Porn Star 00:28:21 google is your friend 00:28:23 He's fairly famous, and slightly esoteric, but not really. 00:39:46 BF->Sex translation (for encoding possibly illegal algorithms when your only means of production is porn): + = standard missionary vaginal sex, - = standard doggy-style anal sex, < = woman-on-man oral, > = man-on-woman oral, [ = 69ing, ] = anything kinky ;), ',' = female orgasm, '.' = male orgasm 00:40:40 Now, for DeCSS encoded as sex :P 00:41:43 Does the program cause an error if . comes before , ? 00:42:10 That sounded cleaner in my head. I apologize 00:42:53 It's purely a method of encoding BF, all quirks of BF apply. 00:43:10 you don't have to translate BF... BF is already sex. like, brainF*CK. 00:43:18 Heheh 00:47:29 ok reboot in windows 00:47:36 -!- Gs30ng has quit ("to reboot in windows"). 00:59:26 -!- Gs30ng has joined. 00:59:50 i got the pixie to display a fixed mem position without interrupts.. 00:59:59 i'd like to do it with interrupts 01:00:03 ... yay? 01:00:07 oh 01:00:09 hmmm 01:03:17 and the up down resolution of the PIXIE is higher than i thought 01:03:27 most programs downsample it using tricky timing 01:03:48 and my programm is destruktive.. it destroys itself 01:03:53 by zeroing the first byte 01:04:01 and 0 == idle == halt cpu until interrupt 01:05:07 the updown resolutine is like 3x leftright resolution 01:06:36 gn8 01:07:50 What are the resolutions? 01:08:13 i didn't count the pixels 01:08:16 * jix is searching a spec 01:08:46 64 pixels in a line 01:09:27 128 lines 01:09:41 Thats fairly small. You'd be hard pressed to write a reliable roguelike on that 01:10:06 the odd thing is that it is for tv output but tvs have more ppl than lines 01:10:13 ppl is a tla for pixels per line 01:11:01 got it 01:11:18 tla is a tla for three letter acronym 01:11:24 Well... it makes some sense, if they're trying to get square output 01:11:39 square output? 01:12:23 the pixels are like dashes 01:12:29 not like dots/squares 01:12:37 the other way around it'd make sense 01:13:14 I suppose because conventional pixels aren't square, they're rectangular as well 01:14:14 but conventional pixels are supposed to be 1:1 like not 1:3.. 1:1.n is ok but 1:3... 01:15:55 Well, I can confidently claim that I have no idea why they did that 01:18:08 hehe 01:18:09 gn8 01:18:14 -!- jix has quit ("Bitte waehlen Sie eine Beerdigungnachricht"). 01:57:53 conventional pixels aren't 1:1, are they? 01:58:20 I dont think they are... 01:59:43 PAL uses a square ratio 02:00:20 NTSC doesnt 02:00:59 NTSC uses 1.23 02:53:57 ............ 02:54:06 I didn't think PAL was square .... 02:54:18 Not that I have any reason to think either way :P 02:55:16 Furthermore, televisions don't have horizontal pixels per se. 02:56:06 -!- calamari has joined. 02:56:12 hi 02:56:19 I was just looking at the site 02:56:20 They have a fixed number of scanlines (480 in NTSC if I remember right) with non-discrete content. 02:56:22 Hey! 02:56:26 You two can help me! 02:56:30 Oh no. 02:56:31 ;) 02:56:50 * calamari hides 02:57:13 Im taking a break from my REAL esolang to work on one that is more or less just a shell of an idea. 02:57:16 come in here! ----> +[] ;) 02:57:31 Is it a party? 02:57:45 * WildHalcyon wears a funny hat 02:57:57 it's liek the hotel california.. you can enter but never leave ... 02:58:10 * GregorR wears a black top-hat. 02:58:36 hmmm... I suppose, but thats only IF you believe the eagles. I personally think they were a bunch of lying bastards. 02:58:40 * calamari doesn't generally wear hats.. 02:58:54 which is weird because it's so sunny here in AZ 02:59:32 WildHalcyon: sorry.. bf joke.. hehehe, 02:59:44 So, I discovered the beauty of balanced ternary arithmetic 02:59:55 No, I get it ;-) 03:00:01 * WildHalcyon knows some BF 03:00:50 ooh, you called it ternary istead of trinary.. coolness.. what's up? 03:01:30 Now Im trying to implement an esolang with {-,0,+} with the + representing angels, and - represent demons, and the language motto is: "The ultimate battle between good & evil is now turing complete!" 03:02:20 I thought about implementing a 2D terrain map, with little roads that the armies of men could take to travel between cities (operators)... but Im not quite sure where to go from there, or even if I should go anywhere with this 03:02:26 what's 0.. luke-warm? 03:02:42 I suppose, 0 would be neutral, like.. um... purgatory 03:02:46 or Earth, even. 03:03:09 sounds interesting 03:03:20 that'd be cool 03:03:23 Essentially, each variable is an army, with the individual trits representing good/neutral/evil souls within the army 03:03:30 especially once I get my 3-d graphics card working again 03:05:57 * calamari has been messing around with particles and gravity.. still working out how to do the math 03:06:12 I have an idea, just can't seem to make the final connections 03:06:55 Thats where Im at with my normal esolang, which is much less esoteric, much more practical 03:06:58 F=G*m1*m2/r^2, resulting force = sum of force vectors acting on the object 03:07:18 Right? 03:08:11 oh wait.. tan angle = opp / adj, iirc 03:08:42 yep.. figured it out then :) 03:08:55 yup 03:09:02 Oh, hmm... alright 03:09:19 been too long since physics class 03:09:54 I vaguely remember physics, with my hippie professor. Man, that was crazy 03:20:58 -!- int-e has joined. 04:15:41 -!- Gs30ng has quit ("SKYIRC Ver Pro http://cafe.naver.com/skyirc.cafe #skyirc"). 04:47:04 -!- calamari_ has joined. 04:50:44 Hmm 04:50:53 well.. welcome back doppelganger 04:51:10 hi WildHalcyon :) 04:51:19 Ive been reading some slashdot on ternary computing. Man... they get defensive! 04:51:51 * calamari_ has particles wiggling around (no physics yet, random walk) but some kind of bug makes it reset or something every few seconds 04:52:16 So... what exactly does it... ermm.. what is it supposed to do? 04:52:21 wonder if the garbage collector is doing it 04:52:42 I wanted to apply gravity forces to the particles and see what happened 04:53:04 just simple curiousity 04:53:39 So, you have several particles, and they're all under gravitational forces from one another, correct? 04:54:21 not yet.. but yeah 04:54:30 so initially they have 0 velocity and 0 accel 04:54:33 I hate GC 04:55:23 but as the forces are applies they should start moving around :) 04:56:06 I was thinking that if two particles collided I would make it an inelastic collision 04:56:25 then the new mass would be the sum of the two old masses 04:56:35 It should, unless you're providing some kind of repelling force 04:57:14 anyhow.. it's weird that it is doing this resetting thing 04:57:48 What do you mean by "resetting" ? 04:58:40 the dots will be wiggling around, then all the sudden they will all be in totally different places and there will be less of them 04:59:05 Oh.. yeah, thats resettin' all right 04:59:17 Is there some kind of counter overflow? 04:59:47 hmm interesting.. doesn't seem to happen if I Thread.sleep() with a high enough value 05:01:04 Anyhow, Ive got class tomorrow, so Im outta here for the night ;-) 05:01:05 not really using counters.. using an iterator to go through the particles 05:01:10 cya WildHalcyon 05:01:18 later! 05:01:24 -!- WildHalcyon has left (?). 05:03:12 hahahaha.. I know what's wrong.. dumb dumb dumb 05:03:45 not thread safe :) 05:11:00 -!- calamari has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 05:46:27 -!- int-e has quit ("Bye!"). 07:48:15 -!- WildHalcyon has joined. 07:48:31 Anyone still up? I ended up doing the non-sleep thing 07:50:55 hi 07:50:59 Hey! 07:51:06 what about class? 07:51:23 I know.. 07:52:11 I have a problem with insomnia occassionally. I tend to think too much, or something. 07:52:15 * WildHalcyon is thinking 07:53:07 I have a similar problem if I go to bed just after programming something 07:53:41 I mgiht sleep, but badly.. usually filled with "nightmares" such as trying to figure something complicated out but never being able to 07:54:00 or having to remember something 07:54:06 lol, programming nightmares? That sounds like... hmm.. programming 07:54:14 (which never seems to be useful once I wake up) 07:55:00 reading slashdot or sites like imdb usually seems to cure it 07:57:23 found a neat linux program called planets.. better than the program I was hoping to write 07:57:36 well, there we go! 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:02:06 I finished the prelim spec on my language: http://www4.ncsu.edu/~bcthomp2/CRAWL.txt 08:02:13 its in alpha development :-D 08:03:45 what class did you have? 08:04:39 Genetics, not a terribly difficult class 08:05:02 But I should probably show up in the hopes of getting a karmic reward or something 08:23:04 Alright, Im gonna give sleep another go 08:23:17 -!- WildHalcyon has left (?). 08:26:48 -!- calamari has joined. 08:26:53 re 08:46:11 -!- calamari_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 08:55:07 -!- calamari has quit ("Leaving"). 10:18:47 -!- kipple has joined. 11:50:26 -!- jix has joined. 11:50:52 moin moin 13:52:59 -!- int-e has joined. 14:29:23 moin int-e 14:29:29 Hi 14:29:45 bbl 15:07:40 /back 15:07:50 GregorR: ping 15:52:38 -!- WildHalcyon has joined. 16:18:46 -!- Kmkr has joined. 16:18:53 'ello 16:19:25 can anyone summary the past days logs in few words? 16:38:27 mostly harmless. 16:41:08 ah 16:41:10 :) 16:45:57 -!- cpressey has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 16:46:28 hmmm this CRAWL seems interesting 16:48:48 * GregorR stumbles across the desert, bleeding from the ping wound through his shoulder. 16:49:11 * GregorR collapses, no longer able to stay conscious because of blood lost from his ping wound. 16:49:26 hrhr 16:49:41 hi 16:50:43 Hmm, jix has a vowel in the name but none in the message, Kmkr has a vowel in the message but none in the name :P 16:52:25 NOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!! 16:52:37 it can't be coincidence 16:55:21 grh.. no time to do anything.. back to reading.. 16:55:42 * Kmkr 's head explodes. 16:55:45 -!- Kmkr has quit ("I've seen this dj vu before.."). 16:56:03 his head exploded. 17:10:34 These things happen *shrugs* 17:42:07 -!- cpressey has joined. 18:11:40 -!- Gs30ng has joined. 18:13:32 -!- Keymaker has joined. 18:14:20 back again.. enough of reading :p 18:18:58 well, your head exploded 18:19:15 yes 18:19:27 that's a good point to stop reading ;) 18:19:34 ah 18:33:32 that's why we need multiple head 18:33:36 democracy or something 18:33:56 hehe 18:49:11 mh 18:50:24 [insert several angry animal voices here] 19:40:51 [insert several happy animal voices here] 19:46:40 lol 19:46:52 [insert several in-heat animal voices here] 19:48:12 aarhhg z] 20:01:56 bye 20:02:12 -!- Keymaker has left (?). 20:34:57 HURRAH FOR ALL THE ESOLANG!!!!!! 20:39:01 -!- cpressey has quit ("Lost terminal"). 20:40:36 -!- cpressey has joined. 20:51:45 -!- cpressey has quit ("Lost terminal"). 20:53:08 -!- cpressey has joined. 21:52:17 * GregorR hands cpressey a case of terminals, plus a few pseudoterminals and xterms. 21:52:36 haha 21:53:09 He seems to be losing them awfully fast, figured he could use them more than I could *shrugs* 21:53:12 * int-e hopes GregorR left a hole for pizza delivery 21:54:06 * Gs30ng is now stuck in it 21:56:52 i think that terminal means some kind of examination and cpressey lost it, like, failed or something 21:57:28 GregorR would rather give him some advice to be a copycat rather than more terminals 22:06:11 thank you, GregorR. 22:06:20 it could have been worse... my connection could be been refused by peer 22:06:36 or, perish the thought, there might have been no route to host 22:08:37 -!- {^Raven^} has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 22:09:26 -!- {^Raven^} has joined. 22:10:27 or, in the worst case imaginable, your client could have quit 22:10:57 or NASA guys again 22:15:40 -!- calamari has joined. 22:15:48 hi 22:15:56 moin calamari 22:17:05 i always feel a bit weird when i see that moin of jix... in my hometown language moin means 'grouped' or 'congregated' 22:17:15 so it goes 'grouped calamari' 22:17:33 in my language moin means "I hope you die" 22:18:56 lament: lol 22:18:57 hi jix, grouped Gs30ng :) 22:19:07 moin lament ;) 22:19:30 lol 22:22:14 afk 22:22:20 GregorR: how's your mud going? 22:24:43 he's doing a game too? 22:24:59 he's designing an engine 22:25:11 mud engine, i heard 22:25:29 unfortunately not in esolang 22:25:35 calamari: yes but not for the contests afaik 22:25:36 but in C++ 22:25:38 was just about to ask... :) 22:26:04 again, what kind of terminal did you lose, cpressey? a token? a literal? did you ever lose a non-terminal? 22:26:12 calamari: i need some weird computer for writing a textadv for it 22:26:23 and when i say weird i mean REALLY weird 22:26:37 jix: abacus? 22:26:41 maybe cosmac elf works 22:26:48 but the screen is that lowres 22:26:58 64x128 (yes 68x 128y) 22:27:11 and on a real tv screen it doesn't show the full area afaik 22:27:26 ;) http://lilly.csoft.net/~jeffryj/images/misc/bfcomp.jpg 22:27:28 and i don't know what part of the area is displayed 22:27:37 hrhr 22:28:09 where's the space to insert the code 22:28:09 oh that's not lowres; ZX-81 had 64x44 22:28:26 pgimeno: pixel in bw? 22:28:28 has, even (I have one handy) 22:28:31 yep 22:28:36 wow 22:28:47 ok tiny elf has to work 22:28:55 I can't remember what channel f had 22:28:55 it's actually a semi-graphic character (the screen is 32x22) 22:29:14 the good thing 1802 asm is really short 22:29:44 128x64.. wow.. advanced :) 22:29:47 all instructions are 1 byte (but may take a 1byte value/adress or 2 byte adress) 22:29:54 calamari: wait 22:29:58 64x128 22:30:10 that's really stupid that its 64x128 instead of 128x64 22:30:39 the thing about the channel f is that the games looked and sounded pretty bad.. but they were fun! 22:30:45 then it's pretty much the same as Z80, except the Z80 has some prefixes to extend the instruction set 22:31:08 pgimeno: but z80 has not 16 16bit registers 22:31:28 oh and whenever you play one of GregorR's muds never type pwnd.. that kill's you 22:31:28 indeed, it has just 9 IIRC 22:31:43 and the z80 can't use ANY of them as IP 22:32:26 right (oh well, I didn't count PC, IR, AF or AF') 22:32:33 and the z80 isn't in the voyager (satellite ) 22:32:43 i didn't count the 8bit accumulator 22:32:47 but it's in the good ol' Speccy :P 22:32:50 and the 4bit X and P register 22:32:58 and the 8 bit T register 22:32:58 maybe your own computer out of transistors 22:33:07 calamari: thought about that 22:33:20 4bit registers? funny 22:33:21 but i'd prefer a fpga it's easier.. 22:33:27 pgimeno: they are register pointers 22:33:28 that DOES make it superior 22:33:37 they point to one of the 16 16bit registers 22:33:43 P points to the IP 22:34:02 and X points to the register used for memory addressing for many instructions 22:34:16 and you can set X using the SEt X instruction .. short: SEX 22:34:32 yeah, I've read it in the backlog :) 22:34:37 I once programmed an asm that had the SEX instr 22:34:55 it was pretty nice.. had 16 registers r0 to r15 22:35:07 calamari: maybe it was 1802 22:35:10 can't remember the chip model 22:35:36 1802 is a cpu from the 70s 22:35:53 this was the 90's, maybe a decendant of the 1802 22:36:07 there are two decendants 22:36:19 and they were 70s too i think 22:36:33 they weren't very popular.. 22:36:39 but they are COOL 22:36:39 the only reason to use a chip that old is if it was cheap 22:36:54 it was cheap to that time too 22:37:11 the cosmac elf was a build it yourself computer for only 100$ 22:37:29 or you can build a cpu from other logic chips 22:37:29 altair cost like 1000$ afaik 22:38:15 many phone line powered devices used? the 1802 22:38:36 because it has no minimum frequency and could work slow but without consuming much power 22:38:44 cool 22:38:52 and they were manufactured silicon on sapphire too 22:39:06 (thats why they used it in satellites) 22:39:14 that'd be perfect for the whole programmable watch thing 22:39:33 maybe they are too slow 22:39:49 can't be THAT slow 22:39:51 and with today technologies it would be possible to design a low power cpu that is much faster than the 1802 22:40:00 calamari: you have to slow it down to safe power 22:40:04 can fpga's be low power? 22:40:12 calamari: don't think so 22:40:54 they need more gates for simulating a gates => they need more power 22:41:07 and they are bigger than normal ICs 22:41:15 and i know how they work 22:41:21 they use LUTs for EVERYTHING 22:41:37 that's why it's inefficient to design a fpga logic gate by gate 22:41:48 verylog => 4bit LUTs is more efficient 22:41:52 or VHDL 22:43:05 * jix is writing a 1802 assembler because the one he has SUCKS 22:43:28 isn't there a table-driven assembler for Linux? 22:43:33 like TASM for DOS 22:43:36 hmm just reading about the 1802.. couldn't have been my old cpu, as I remember being able to call subroutines 22:43:56 pgimeno: there's tasm for linux too 22:43:58 calamari: you can call subroutines just branch to them using another IP 22:44:01 oh, nice 22:44:07 and return by using the old IP 22:44:21 yeah, I have the registered version of tasm and the guy is still supporting it 22:44:50 ah, no wonder it's not in Debian 22:45:06 yeah, it's shareware.. 22:45:56 I use it for 6502 22:46:07 i use cc65 for 6502 comes with an asm 22:46:12 i don't use it 22:46:14 but i have it installed 22:46:32 jix: you said x86 asm was ugly? 22:46:39 pgimeno: imo it is 22:46:52 that's because you haven't tried AT&T's assembler 22:46:56 i just hate ju?mp 22:46:57 assembly, even 22:47:08 i want branch not jump 22:47:44 bra 22:48:08 it's kind of weird... an inconditional jump is not a branching in the flow graph 22:48:11 actually, that instruction doesn't exist on the 6502's in the old atari's 22:48:30 calamari: branch-relative-absolute? that makes no sense 22:48:38 bra branch always 22:48:48 bla makes sense thats branch-link-absolute 22:48:50 it was a 1-byte relative branch 22:48:54 valid ppc instruction 22:49:09 I want an assembly language where the instruction that changes PC is called GOTO :P 22:49:18 pgimeno: uh 22:49:19 so instead of using 3 bytes for a jump, you could do it in 2 if it was short range 22:49:31 just to bug jix 22:49:35 i just like to write b because it's shorter than jump 22:49:47 it's jmp 22:49:52 ;) 22:49:55 int-e: b is still shorter 22:50:01 or on the 1802 br 22:50:15 calamari: br is 1 byte adressing 22:50:18 I know. And it does not matter. je is shorter than beq ;-) 22:50:34 int-e: k... 22:50:41 i just don't like jump 22:50:46 dunno why 22:50:47 the only problem of jmp is that j and m are both typed with the same finger 22:50:48 jz :) 22:50:50 that's ok. 22:51:00 jz, je, same thing. 22:51:05 pgimeno: no jmp is typed using 3 finger 22:51:13 I type it with 3 fingers 22:51:19 * calamari doesn't touch type.... 22:51:47 i dont use a this finger that key.. i just use a finger that is free and near to that key 22:51:50 probably why I'm so slow.. hunt & peck with years of experience 22:52:04 I know exactly what you're talking about. 22:52:14 it was freaky when I realized I could do it without looking 22:52:17 i never "learned" how to type i just did it 22:52:36 calamari: i started typing on keyboards in the kindergarden 22:52:44 btw, in Z80 they're jr (relative), jp (absolute) 22:53:01 afk 22:53:07 and speaking of SEX... 22:53:34 the Z80 has no SEX but has STI which is an ultra-high level instruction (that's what is left when you take the 'E' out of 'SETI') 22:53:44 usually it finds none so it just sets the interrupt flag and goes on, disappointed 22:54:04 haha 22:54:22 and it's not SeT Interrupt? 22:54:45 oh, maybe that's it and I've been wrong all this time! 22:54:53 no... 22:55:00 i don't think it's SeT Interrupt 22:55:27 that's unlikely.. i think it's the SETI thing 22:55:47 anyway it's strange because it doesn't even find me :P 22:55:58 mnemonic quiz is fun 22:56:10 a easy one: ldi 22:56:14 wbinvd 22:56:23 int-e: no idea 22:56:26 in Z80? load, increment 22:56:28 jix, z80, load index register. 22:56:31 oh 22:56:34 ikh 22:56:36 eek 22:56:44 wbinv is 'write back and invalidate cache' 22:56:48 486 ;) 22:56:54 on 1802 LoaD Immediate 22:56:56 jix: know of any other cpu's that can accept any clock speed? 22:57:06 calamari: they have an upper limit 22:57:11 but not a lower 22:57:18 sorry.. I meant slower 22:57:19 and afaik arm is able to run at a few khz 22:57:26 oh, didn't remember about wbinvd 22:57:34 the iPod mini 2nd generation uses it to safe power 22:57:45 always uses minimal clock speed needed 22:57:51 it was the most obscure instruction in the x86 reference guide that came with borland pascal 22:58:01 32KHz crystals are (were? I'm not very up-to-date with this) usually found in wrist watches 22:58:36 implementing brainfuck using transistors could be fun 22:58:36 fclex was neat, too 22:59:00 argh 22:59:14 it ligths a bulb somewhere but everything is diffuse 22:59:29 oh, and some really useful instructions, one of them being btr 22:59:44 ah, that one I remember :) bit test right 22:59:44 fclex: fpu clear exception. btr: bit test and reset. 22:59:51 argh 22:59:57 had the last word wrong 23:00:04 jix: I'd probably implement a bf variant where [ and ] are combined into a conditional jump instruction 23:00:29 I'm thinking of writing a MISC VM. 23:00:40 that'd be even easier 23:00:52 wonder how many transistors misc would take 23:01:12 the obscure thing about btr (and bt and bts) is that when used with a memory operand, btr [bx+di], bp , you can actually address 8kb of memory, bitwise. 23:01:15 Time for a gcc/binutils backend, then there'll be pressure to make one ;) 23:01:20 I can still type Z80 code in decimal in DATA lines but I can't remember the damn 486+ instruction set 23:01:43 I confused it with BSR (bit scan reverse) 23:01:45 (and 0.5 GB in 32 bit mode) 23:01:51 pgimeno, ah! 23:01:55 and bsf :) 23:02:52 (I never used these instructions; I wanted to keep 386 compatibility back then when I wrote assembly code) 23:03:15 I never learned em.. all my x86 programs are 8088 compatible :) 23:03:38 uhm, bt* and bs* do work on i386 23:04:02 they do? oh O:) 23:04:58 then it's probably because I never managed to fully learn the new instructions when I switched to the 386 23:05:24 the timings were weird IIRC 23:05:35 afaik only bswap and cmpxchg were new on the 486, and the builtin FPU. 23:05:36 * pgimeno is aging and forgetful 23:06:32 how old is aging? 23:06:40 aging is permanent 23:06:42 lol 23:07:24 depending on your definition you might stop aging when you die. 23:07:58 I'm 38 fwiw 23:08:40 ok, you're old. are you happy now? 23:08:44 * int-e grins mischieviously. 23:08:57 hehe, yes, thanks :) 23:11:16 yay.. I'm young! :) 23:13:45 i'm young 23:14:06 * jix is 14 years old 23:14:53 how old are you, calamari? 23:16:02 * int-e is 27 23:16:10 pgimeno: you are 2,71 times as old as i am 23:18:07 27 23:18:30 was afk looking at cpu's on digikey hehe 23:19:20 pgimeno is e times older than jix? 23:19:21 wow 23:19:27 pgimeno: you're fricking OLD 23:19:34 hahaha 23:19:42 try ancient ;) 23:19:53 argh 23:20:07 :) 23:20:48 I think I 23:21:02 'll feel older pretty quickly in Feb 23:21:16 that's when the baby's due :) 23:22:14 ooh 23:22:17 wooo 23:22:35 congrats calamari :) 23:22:37 thanks 23:25:29 he will hopefully not be UNBABTIZED or SON OF UNBABTIZED 23:25:59 not son of unbabtized 23:26:08 but unbabtized until at least 8 :) 23:26:48 er, that joke didn't mean to have any religious implications :) 23:27:00 pgimeno: I know.. :) 23:27:13 is it sure that he is 'he'? 23:27:19 nope 23:27:53 then he/she could be kinda DAUGHTER OF UNBABTIZED 23:28:02 could have found out last time, but we went to a new clinic and they had horrible resolution on their scanner 23:29:28 well it's Aug 2005 yet... due is Feb 2006, right? 23:29:54 yeah 23:35:28 hmm, looks like 386/486 have a static design too 23:37:39 Well ... that MISC VM was way too easy. 23:37:52 (Although I had to contend with little-endianness) 23:38:23 GregorR: MISC VM? 23:38:44 little-endiann is stupid 23:39:05 what is misc vm? 23:39:33 See http://www.esolangs.org/wiki/MISC (unless I just mislinked you) 23:41:00 any hw implementations with memmory mapped IO? 23:41:43 shouldn't be that hard 23:43:20 AFAIK there aren't any hardware implementations :P 23:43:47 my brother has an fpga i could use but i have no computer to program the fpga 23:49:00 hm, IMO the MISC turing completeness proof is flawed in the sense that MISC-16 uses bounded memory 23:50:57 well, assume unlimited memory cells then 23:51:52 in that case it's not MISC-16 and the proof is not valid 23:52:18 plus, what's two's complement of 1 in unlimited arithmetic? 23:52:42 -2 23:52:59 is MISC signed? 23:53:30 MISC works in a finite field 23:53:45 err. ring or group 23:56:26 that kind of reminds me of a Daily WTF entry which read like: var += -1; 23:56:44 MISC is signed, it's clearly not turing complete but it's turing-complete-within-the-construct-of-reality. 23:57:15 I think there was a category for that 23:57:20 (IE, you could make a one-instruction instruction set that was turing complete, but you couldn't make a real computer to use it, so who cares) 23:57:54 http://www.esolangs.org/wiki/Bounded-storage_machine 23:57:58 that was it 2005-08-18: 00:00:37 Yup 00:00:52 Also, every real computer in the universe :P 00:01:34 there's probably an equivalence between every MISC program and a SMETANA program... that's scary 00:04:49 I wonder what the most RISCy non-esoteric ASM is. 00:06:44 there's a (half-esoteric) assembly language which has only MOV 00:06:52 The Transputer instruction set was comprised of 8-bit instructions broken into two nibbles. The "upper" nibble contained the instruction code, making it truly RISC with only 16 basic instructions. 00:07:02 Transputers are a good guess, I think. 00:07:04 just some registers do special operations when MOVed 00:07:34 it's the one used in the Wireworld computer 00:08:01 I think that would qualify as fully esoteric, pgimeno :) 00:08:26 * GregorR looks up transputer. 00:09:19 well, it has a ciscish instruction for less common operations, so I'm not sure if it really qualifies. but it's neat. 00:09:28 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transputer#Instruction_set 00:12:08 Intersil 80c88 looks good 00:12:36 low power, static design, and instruction set that I already know :) 00:24:36 80c88 is x86? 00:24:49 8088 was 8086 with 8bit data bus? 00:25:02 and 80c88 is a variant of 8088? 00:28:07 cmos version 00:28:50 ah 00:29:02 Intersil 80c88 looks good << for what? 00:29:24 just messing around... :) I've always wanted to build a portable system 00:29:48 the problem with most of them is that you have to constantly be charging them 00:30:07 true 00:30:38 i'd suggest using the arm7tdmi (gba and ipod uses them both have ok charging time) 00:31:08 it is powerful and easy to program 00:31:36 it has 2 instruction sets.. one for speed and another one for slow ram and small code size 00:31:45 gcc supports it 00:32:04 thumb... 00:32:15 int-e: yes 00:32:35 gcc supports arm and thumb instruction sets 00:32:56 i'm working on my 1802 assembler 00:33:10 it uses ruby files for assembly code 00:33:28 and some dirty hacks that allow writing like normal assembler code 00:34:46 eew.. why would I want to use gcc to write programs for an embedded device? :) 00:35:09 calamari: because sometimes assembler isn't the best choice 00:35:21 i used gcc for gba programming too 00:36:16 and you can use gas for assembling 00:36:23 hah! 00:36:36 calamari: hah?! 00:36:44 nasm 00:37:05 don't know nasm 00:37:31 it uses intel syntax instead of that horrible at&t 00:38:33 the arm asm syntax from gas was ok 00:38:48 oic 00:39:00 never used gas for anything else than ppc and arm 00:40:12 at&t is delightfully terrible 00:40:12 imo x86 asm is always ugly 00:40:29 you'd probably like it despite of not liking x86, jix 00:41:16 it's like: SUB A,B means: SUBtract A from B 00:41:33 I need to go eat something 00:41:33 yes but the register names are.. 00:41:44 CMP A,B tests B in relation to A 00:41:47 cya all :) 00:41:52 -!- calamari has quit ("Leaving"). 00:41:54 pgimeno: that's all ok 00:42:01 but i don't like the register names 00:42:06 and jmp 00:42:16 the registers are the same names, just preceded with % 00:42:29 this is getting repetitive. 00:42:30 or was it $? 00:42:35 no they are like %aex... not like r0..r31 00:42:36 -!- kipple has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 00:42:47 $eip, I think 00:42:56 pgimeno: i don't know x86 that much 00:43:01 i only saw some asm code 00:43:23 * pgimeno stops ranting 00:43:31 pgimeno, I think you're mixing up gas and gdb 00:43:41 doh 00:43:51 you're right 00:44:04 gdb is cool 00:44:24 it has objc support 00:44:31 anyway jix would hate nasm, because the operands are swapped there. (well, not for x86 assembly coders but for everyone else) 00:44:47 int-e: swapped?! 00:45:07 mov eax, 42 sets eax to 42. mov eax, ebx sets eax to the value of ebx. 00:46:17 the worst part of free software is that everyone makes things different to each other and I end up mixing things 00:46:21 er 00:46:30 I said I'd stop ranting, sorry 00:46:55 that's Z80ish too 00:47:03 pgimeno, intel did it differently from everyone else. the gas coders made a backend for gcc that made the compiler work as similar to the other backends as possible 00:47:36 anyway the cmp bit still puzzles me 00:48:03 that's why the $ and % signs are there, that's why the instructions got suffixes for the various sizes, that's why memory addresses are specified in such a strange way, and that's why the operands are swapped 00:48:05 cmp is easy 00:48:09 cmp eax,ebx / jle addr -> jumps if ebx <= eax 00:48:16 cmp is sub but doesn't modify any operand 00:48:32 yeah 00:48:48 and no it doesn't. 00:49:13 int-e: add r1,r2,r3 sets r1 to r2+r3 on ppc afaik 00:49:36 i just modified some ppc code did not much coding 00:50:04 there is no good ppc asm introduction 00:50:07 pgimeno maybe you stumbled on a signed/unsigned issue? jle is for signed numbers 00:50:21 jbe is for unsigned numbers 00:51:28 so is cmp re-reversed? 00:51:47 cmp eax, ebx; jle jumps if eax<=ebx. 00:52:29 ah 00:52:53 so only sub eax,ebx; jle addr jumps if ebx <= eax 00:52:57 nice 00:52:58 no 00:53:11 that also jumps if eax<=ebx 00:53:26 we *are* talking about intel (nasm) syntax, aren't we? 00:53:29 er sorry, notation... cmp %eax, %ebx 00:53:36 nope, AT&T 00:53:53 I personally like NASM syntax 00:53:53 ok, then everything is reversed and some mnemonics are confusing 00:54:30 but it's all clear once you realize that the operands were reversed. 00:54:48 that's what I meant but I'm not in my best moment... sorry 00:55:01 ppc gas syntax: add r11, r7, r8 ; add the values in registers r7, r8 and store in r11 00:55:15 strange 00:55:21 normal to me 00:56:49 arm uses the same syntax 00:57:25 its like r11=r7+r8 00:59:14 blub 00:59:23 i like the bla instruction 00:59:34 it's actually not strange at all, but you'll find assemblers where it means add r11 and r7 and store the result in r8 00:59:48 int-e: that's like 3code 00:59:53 and that's an esolang 01:00:11 what's bla? branch if less or above makes no sense ;) 01:00:11 3code uses 1+2=x 01:00:28 int-e: Branch and Link using Absolute adressing 01:00:36 ah. 01:00:52 another alias for call/bsr. I forgot that one. 01:01:28 on ppc there is no call 01:01:35 and no bsr 01:05:30 int-e: there is no operand order problems for the 1802 01:05:37 there is no instruction with more than 1 operand 01:05:43 that's clever 01:05:56 load-store architecture, eh. 01:06:27 the add instruction has no operands 01:07:04 you use SEX to specify the operand and add adds it to the accumulator 01:07:25 sex r1|add adds r1 to D 01:07:41 mmmmmmmm 01:07:52 sex 01:08:16 lament: did you know the Voyager Satellite has SEX? 01:08:29 ewwwwww 01:25:34 -!- heatsink has joined. 01:43:52 my assembler code works 01:44:07 Ru1802Asm.new("endless!;br endless").hex_assemble #=> "30 00\n" 01:44:30 labels are done using name! or _name 01:45:49 gn8 01:45:59 -!- jix has quit ("Bitte waehlen Sie eine Beerdigungnachricht"). 01:51:02 -!- calamari has joined. 01:51:05 hi 01:54:30 hi 01:55:26 hi! 01:55:44 how was genetics class? 01:56:10 Great. First day.. its going to be an easy class 01:57:20 genetics? 01:57:48 Yeah, Im taking a genetics course to fulfill a 2 credit life science req. Its b.s. 01:58:21 Genetic programming language would be fun 01:58:38 what are you talking about? 01:58:46 all programming languages are genetic programming languages 01:58:52 you keep tweaking them until they work 02:00:00 Well... my esolang is specifically geared towards genetic programming 02:00:06 like Avida 02:00:38 interesting. But isn't the genetic code generally a domain-specific lagnauge? 02:00:39 I've messed around with gp.. lots to learn there 02:01:21 Its not in genetic code (ATGC...), its just used to model cells which reproduce themselves 02:01:33 well.. it will be... once an implementation is built 02:02:13 During my genetics lecture, I was working on a rough design for the interpreter system 02:02:36 lol 02:03:02 so you *were* enjoying class.... 02:03:52 If you consider not paying attention to class participation, then yes 02:06:58 The books were expensive... $177 US 02:16:44 * pgimeno ponders about writing an intelligent design language 02:17:03 what do you mean by intelligent design? 02:17:36 er... how's it called... the alternative theory to evolution 02:19:07 what are you talking about? 02:19:14 all programming languages are intelligent design languages 02:19:17 ;) 02:19:35 are all the programming languages genetic? 02:19:59 Oh 02:20:01 that's right 02:20:28 well i didn't meant that way... :( 02:20:56 Hmm... I think Befunge might qualify as intelligent design (YOU can change the code, making you the intelligent creator) 02:21:35 then Versert should be most intelligent design 02:21:58 TC with no stack, but only self-modifying 02:22:20 http://dev.tokigun.net/esolang/versert/index_en.php 02:24:39 for ID reference see e.g. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intelligent_design (yes, my proposal was ironic) 02:28:48 hmm 02:29:02 i don't think all the programming languages are genetic 02:29:52 the process of the embodiment of them could be genetic but the languages themselves are not all genetic 02:31:18 actually i think nongenetic ones are more than genetic ones 02:39:16 sorry, back stupid webmail said I had an incorrect password... 02:39:19 liars 02:44:31 I disagree on the statement that Versert is 'genetic' since it cannot modify its own code, only according to the definition that I listed above 02:49:09 Its a sweet language though. Good work Tokigun 02:55:13 i named the language 02:55:35 but i don't even know how to write hello world code with it 03:02:29 8+*~.@ prints an @? 03:03:38 -!- CXII has changed nick to CXI. 03:05:03 its magic Gs30ng, voodoo magic 03:05:14 * WildHalcyon waves his hands mysteriously 03:06:08 -!- CXI has changed nick to Teeth. 03:06:29 oh, that's how voodoo graphic card work 03:06:38 recieve the data, magic, send the data 03:07:22 Yup 03:07:39 Except thats asm voodoo. 03:07:42 I think 03:07:43 ? 03:08:40 I was really peeved at this stupid girl today. 03:08:42 -!- Teeth has changed nick to CXI. 03:08:52 Gs30ng, what, you've made another language again? 03:09:05 I was trying to rescue an abandoned kitten, and she came lumbering in and scared it off 03:09:08 what are you talking about 03:09:34 or were you talking about Udage 03:09:41 i guess 03:09:54 the college entrance exam is 98 days left 03:09:59 I think we were talking about Versert? or something 03:10:06 i can't make any more useless language 03:11:08 although i strongly want to do so 03:11:09 :( 03:12:16 ...ok it does mean that i don't have any time to stay here for just fun too 03:12:17 afk 03:19:29 Ahhhhhhhhhh, MUD = sooo much work. 03:19:34 I don't even have the entire basic foundation in place. 03:28:49 have you tried eating it? 03:46:18 -!- int-e has quit ("Bye!"). 03:56:30 -!- cpressey has quit ("leaving"). 03:58:25 -!- cpressey has joined. 04:07:47 -!- WildHalcyon has left (?). 04:29:28 -!- cpressey_ has joined. 04:30:02 -!- cpressey has quit ("leaving"). 04:30:09 -!- cpressey_ has changed nick to cpressey. 04:40:35 -!- CXI has quit (Connection timed out). 04:51:44 -!- WildHalcyon has joined. 05:13:47 -!- heatsink has quit ("Leaving"). 05:14:18 Im thinking of having a development blog of my language. Anyone know of a good blog site for a project like this? 05:40:22 -!- calamari_ has joined. 05:42:47 WildHalcyon: you'd rather use tools like WordPress of MovableType on your own account 05:42:48 -!- calamari has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 05:42:56 s/of/or 05:59:26 hmm... 05:59:45 Whats the diff between WordPress & MovableType? 06:03:10 I suppose I should probably name the language before I try implementing a blog on the design too 06:03:27 y'know.. register the domain and everything. It's just a pain, to keep updating and reposting the spec on my school account 06:12:23 udage was formerly 'Switch' 06:13:15 i suffured something similar 06:14:05 Well, Im less concerned with that, and more concerned with the fact that CRAWL was never meant to be the language name 06:14:21 its just a random thought that popped into my idea right around this same time a few days ago 06:14:49 well, you can use something like 'codename' 06:15:59 Thats what I have been doing 06:16:23 but if I go through the trouble of reserving a domain name, I should probably have the name pretty much settled... 06:16:54 well actually you don't have to worry about domain thing 06:17:21 you can just redirect the pages 06:17:48 hmm.. yeah, thats an option too 06:18:16 unless you're going to use some kind of name that seems to be registered sooner or later 06:18:33 You never know 06:18:54 just think unique name 06:18:56 With my luck, whatever I DO call it will probably end up being registered anyways 06:19:57 unique... 06:21:21 and according to my experience, although it takes too much to come up with any nice name, don't give up to think 06:22:06 I'll work on it. My gf helped me name that stray kitten, she can probably help with the esolang too ;-) 06:22:31 my gf DOES. 06:23:21 she told me that i don't need NAND thing 06:23:48 but NAND is nice... simple 06:24:02 conditional jump only is more simple 06:24:34 oh, i mean that, she told me about NAND thing in Udage 06:25:16 Hmm.. I dont know if my gf can help in that capacity. She's not a programmer 06:26:27 my gf is not a programmer too. well, she majors in physics 06:29:12 Yeah, but Im not certain my gf has the interest in the project that yours might have in Udage. 06:29:48 She paid enough attention to spot the NAND thing; that's gotta count for something, right? 06:30:11 some geeks name the lang after their gf 06:30:18 ...'s name 06:30:44 Nope. Not gonna do it. Besides, her name is taken (by a furniture store) 06:31:37 i heard that Debian Linux(not a lang, though) is named after the developer and his... err... gf? wife? anyway 06:32:56 I don't think she would appreciate that either, honestly. I'll think of a nice organic-sounding name that will be great 06:34:55 unexpectedly my gf's nickname is penguin 06:35:14 i hardly can use that on computer related thing, you know 06:35:26 Unexpectedly, thats not a bad lang name. Is she a linux fan? 06:36:00 Bharal! I could name it Bharal! 06:36:57 uhm, what is it? 06:37:02 not that that really makes a ton of sense unless you're into mountain goats 06:37:21 Its a himalayan sheep. Famous for leaping on cliffs 06:37:50 well, would you tell me about the lang spec briefly? 06:39:03 Its a funge-varient that implements function spaces that have their own topology (they wrap independent of the rest of the program). The stack is composed of lists, rather than separate elements (like Joy) 06:39:24 I'm using the program to model genetically evolving programs, similar to the software Avida and Tierra 06:41:57 I'm removing redundant funge elements in order to reduce the instruction set as well... 06:42:18 is halcyon provision the bharals? :) 06:42:55 not that I am aware of. I just googled bharal, and I think someone lied to me :-( 06:43:13 Apparently, its the Himalayan Tahr which lives on the cliffsides and the males try to knock one another off the cliff 06:44:43 If you want to see the provisional spec, go here: http://www4.ncsu.edu/~bcthomp2/CRAWL.txt 06:45:08 It mostly deals with how the implementation details would effect the project, but hopefully you can see where I am going with this. 06:45:51 well, penguin halcyon bharal, all animals 06:46:14 yeah, but penguin and bharal are common names, I believe that halcyon is the scientific name for the kingfisher, correct? 06:47:14 afaik, halcyon is a mythic kingfisher 06:48:40 Maybe its halcyonia or something like that is the genus... 06:48:42 I dont remember 06:48:49 I know kingfisher. Meh. 06:49:12 my dic says, in greek myth, halcyon nests on the sea 06:50:15 then the waves and winds are gone, and the bird lays its egg 06:50:34 hence the connection with peace 06:50:42 and calm 06:50:48 sounds cool 06:51:44 i had no idea that the word can be used as adjective 06:51:49 like peaceful and tranquil 06:52:24 Yep, its rare, but the most common idiomatic usage is 06:52:29 "the halcyon days of summer" 06:52:46 how would Halcyon programming language be? 06:53:11 ohm ohm ohm 06:53:36 Im not crazy about it, because there are several companies named halcyon. It just doesn't ring of authenticity 06:54:54 I'll think of something. Im gonna go to bed now. I just updated the specification abstract again, so maybe I can mull this over and add it on tomorrow 06:55:06 Good luck with it 06:55:10 Thanks 06:55:49 Everyone interested, check out http://www4.ncsu.edu/~bcthomp2/CRAWL.txt to see the updated abstract! 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 11:45:40 -!- calamari_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 12:01:37 -!- jix has joined. 12:01:53 moin everyone 12:03:52 moin. 12:04:03 ...grouped everyone. lol 12:05:00 jix, how's your drow lang going? 12:05:12 hm it isn't really going 12:05:27 i have so many ideas.. can't realize them all... 12:05:38 but my 1802 assembler works 12:05:50 i feel something like that too 12:06:47 well, maybe a stupid advice but, just try to make them clear in your brain before you realize them 12:07:16 ever saw a complete assembler including power full macros and tools for LUT generation in 167 lines of code? 12:08:11 i don't actually know much about assemblers... well sounds funny for an esolang developer but whatever 12:08:30 but i'm interested. would you tell me about it briefly? 12:09:02 i was too lazy to implement a parser 12:09:13 and i thought.. why don't use ruby files as assembler files 12:09:36 in ruby if someone calls an undefined method the method method_missing is called 12:09:52 and i just check in method_missing if the called method is a register or a mnemonic... 12:10:16 and i get macros and LUT generation because one may write normal ruby code into the assembler file 12:10:35 aha 12:10:54 that is really something. 12:11:42 and in the 1802 all instructions (2 exceptions) fit into 1 of 4 schemes 12:11:49 of 5 12:12:01 instruction with no operands.. only 1 byte 12:12:15 instructions with a register operand 4bit+4bit register 1 byte 12:12:25 cute machine, i think 12:12:33 and so on.. 12:12:44 yes pretty cool for 1976 12:12:56 1976. wow. 12:18:40 afk 12:25:31 -!- kipple has joined. 12:27:44 grouped kipple 12:28:04 grouped? what do you mean? 12:28:13 i always say moin 12:28:25 and Gs30ng told me that in his language moin means grouped 12:28:30 ok 12:28:33 hi! 12:29:07 I don't know what moin means either, but I'm guessing something like 'hello' 12:29:11 i've written an assembler in under 200loc 12:29:25 kipple: yes it's like hello (hello is hallo in german) 12:30:06 moin is short for mojen dach ( plattdeutsch (german dialect)) => guten tag (german) => good day (english) 13:28:05 it must be funny to program for this... http://arrakis.ncsa.uiuc.edu/ps2/cluster.php 13:47:21 -!- Gs30ng has quit ("'Ungrouped'"). 14:22:40 -!- int-e has joined. 14:56:49 my 1802 asm rules 14:57:28 202 lines of assembler code.. no cli atm 14:57:44 2 tla in a row cool 15:02:36 removed unused code.. 197 lines now 15:33:38 * WildHalcyon yawns 15:36:18 * jix too 17:59:05 -!- int-e has quit ("Bye!"). 19:14:05 -!- kipple_ has joined. 19:14:06 -!- kipple has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 19:14:57 Hey kip ;-) 19:16:55 -!- int-e has joined. 19:39:10 * GregorR bites you in the face! 19:42:00 ouch!.. I think 19:42:45 GregorR: don't do that! 19:43:16 * GregorR types /me types /me types /me types /me types /me types /me types /me types /me types /me types /me types /me types /me types .. 19:43:41 Time for lunch! 19:43:44 * GregorR disappears. 19:43:54 a miracle! 19:43:56 he's gone! 19:44:25 poof! 19:44:50 Anyone know why the pingpong page is so.. barren? 19:48:11 what's pingpong? 19:49:22 its a befunge derivative 19:49:33 Its got some nice syntax that befreak borrowed a bit of 19:57:35 -!- {^Raven^} has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 19:58:01 -!- {^Raven^} has joined. 20:01:45 -!- CXI has joined. 20:40:01 -!- calamari has joined. 21:00:39 * GregorR forms from the ether. 21:05:57 GregorR: how is your mud going 21:06:20 I did some cleanup yesterday, and almost have the math parser in place. 21:06:31 do you have a name? 21:06:36 i have a cool name 21:06:44 (for the mud) 21:06:53 For the MUD or the engine? 21:06:57 yes 21:06:58 infinite delusions 21:07:15 int-e is clearly not a MUDding fan :P 21:07:32 are you sure? 21:07:43 Or, int-e is a fan of delusions *shrugs* 21:08:12 jix: I'm just writing the engine, I'm no good at storyline design :P 21:08:15 No. I've too many mud projects that were never finished. 21:08:45 Ahh 21:08:46 GregorR: the engine should have a name 21:09:14 Of course, I just wanted to make sure I was clear on what was being named here ... OK, so what's your suggestion for the name for the engine? 21:09:56 Schlamm or another german word from http://dict.leo.org/se?lp=ende&p=/Mn4k.&search=mud 21:11:42 Schlamm sort of sounds like a pun on "MUD" and "SLAM!", which is an odd thing to pun against :P 21:13:26 I like "Morast" 21:14:02 swamp ... (not quite) 21:14:33 They all seemed to have a number of not-quite-mud definitions. 21:15:04 WuS = Wasser und Schmutz 21:15:07 :P 21:16:28 More Useless Dungeons. 21:29:23 IGEAMUAWCATFU = Immersive Game Engine Allowing Multiple Users from Around the World to Collectively Adventure Through a Fictional Universe 21:29:37 It really rolls of the tongue, too. 21:29:56 I-gee-om-ooh-aw-cat-foo 21:30:19 lol 21:31:13 add (Dungeon), then it can be -cat-food 21:31:52 Fictional Universe Creator ... err ... never mind. 21:38:13 Fictional Universe Creator Kit? 22:05:15 Fictional Universe Creator Kit for Your Optimal Utilization of World-Heuristics Organization and Resource Engineering. 22:33:02 haha 23:06:31 *boredom sets in* 23:06:43 Unfortunately, programming a MUD at work is frowned upon :P 23:10:01 i'm still improving my assembler 23:10:21 it has macro local labels now 23:10:33 well you can specify label scopes anywhere 23:11:49 Hmm, I need to write a MISCas to go with my MISCvm (that I forgot to release yesterday >_>) 23:12:00 What does MISC ASM look like, anyway? :P 23:12:09 ugly 23:12:12 just numbers 23:12:14 numbers, numbers, numbers_ 23:12:16 no mnemonics 23:12:22 Awesome. 23:12:25 i love the word mnemonic... 23:12:32 you could have one mnemonic, OP 23:12:40 OP 42 23 11 23:12:48 Or SUBN 23:12:53 oiomisc 23:12:55 Plus labels. 23:13:03 -c 23:13:04 A: OP A A A 23:13:06 Only Instruction Of Misc Instruction Set 23:13:13 lol 23:15:25 A: YCUAMOYCH A A A 23:15:36 (you can use any mnemonic of your choice here) 23:15:51 yes 23:16:00 allow any character combination as mnemonic 23:16:49 A: IT X X X 23:16:56 B: IS Y Y Y 23:17:05 C: AS Z Z Z 23:17:24 X: EASY A X Y 23:17:30 Y: AS Z Z Z 23:17:39 Z: ABC A B C 23:18:05 and no, this is not meant to do anything. 23:18:34 Especially since there are four operands in MISC, not three :P 23:18:48 jix: that old processor I used was the csc1805 23:18:52 oh. dang. 23:19:12 calamari: 1805 is a enhanced 1802 afaik 23:20:49 jix: yep... looking at it now 23:21:15 he 1804 had 64 bytes of memory, 2 KB ROM, on-chip oscillator and 8-bit timer. Instruction set of the 1804 was enhanced with 32 additional instructions, including subroutine call and return from the subroutine instructions. RCA 1805 (CDP1805) and 1806 (CDP1806) were similar to the 1804, but they didn't have on-chip ROM. 23:21:30 that's why I had subroutines.. 1804 added 'em 23:22:26 not having on-chip rom is correct.. we burned the rom separately 23:22:48 * calamari found an old work disk that he probably should have destroyed .. oh well :) 23:23:47 all the >1802 only instructions start with 68 23:24:35 seems that there aren't very many popular cpu's out there.. 23:25:02 z80 23:25:06 m68k 23:25:13 ppc 23:25:16 x86 23:25:25 6502 23:26:07 MIPS 23:26:29 hmm 23:26:36 lots of mips derivatives 23:26:37 don't know more popular cpus 23:26:41 you forgot arm? 23:26:45 argh 23:26:48 arm of course ^^ 23:27:03 sparc looked a lot like MIPS. 23:27:52 i've to add a cli to my assembler 23:27:54 Well, if you restrict it to desktop CPUs ... 23:28:04 Then you're down to about 3. 23:28:10 (MODERN desktop) 23:28:18 (IE: don't say m68k :P ) 23:28:35 ppc disappears soon in desktop PCs 23:28:51 6502 was in desktop PCs too 23:29:00 We are the borg. Your uniqueness will be absorbed into our own. 23:29:07 Resistance is futile. 23:29:13 if <1Ohm 23:29:21 * GregorR zombies the Intel jingle. 23:34:17 we are the borg, we are unique? 23:44:42 i hate writing good cli:s 23:46:23 guis are worse. 23:46:42 yes 23:47:23 but gui apps make intensive use of the gui and the gui is more than a little wrapper for method calls 23:47:28 you write the gui with your app 23:47:46 i've done my asm and have no motivation for writing this stupid cli 23:48:14 read from stdin, write to stdout 23:48:15 ;) 23:48:22 i have some options 23:48:25 like output format 23:48:35 output offset 23:48:51 and ruby has a good option parser 2005-08-19: 00:06:47 Hmm, can you use ruby as a library from C? 00:07:07 yes 00:07:23 the ruby c api for embedding extensions and everything is nice 00:07:25 I wonder if making a ruby scripting interface would be possible / a good idea ... 00:07:33 but the documentation is bad/japanese 00:07:36 (of the c api) 00:07:40 What about C++? 00:07:48 What with the Object Oriented-tude :P 00:08:06 c++ objects aren't ruby objects 00:08:20 there is SWIG for using c++ from ruby 00:08:28 it's kind of a wrapper lib 00:09:10 Other way round, using ruby from C++ :P 00:09:23 don't know 00:09:29 Humm. 00:09:56 i'd suggest writing the whole thing in ruby 00:10:14 To be frank, I don't like ruby very much. 00:10:21 hrhr 00:10:36 then don't try to use it as scripting engine 00:11:00 there are languages that are better for embedding into applications 00:11:38 lua is good for embedding in c afaik don't know about c++ 00:12:06 Well, I thought ruby might be nice because of the object-orientation aspect (what could be more object oriented than a mud?) 00:13:39 but if you have 2 total different kind of objects (implementation of them is different) than it makes no sense... 00:14:11 Right :) 00:14:37 maybe you search something like: taoscript.sourceforge.net 00:14:46 it's somewhat c++ compatible 00:14:50 don't know more about it 00:15:42 wait that's the old url 00:15:50 renamed the language 00:15:51 http://daoscript.sourceforge.net/english/ 00:16:25 but the new site has broken links 00:16:27 hm.. 00:18:07 seems to be a nice language 00:18:58 Yeah. 00:19:19 I'm sort of afraid of embedding any language though, because that could add possible security issues >_> 00:19:27 (Whereas all code that I write is always perfect) 00:19:37 write your own perfect langauge 00:20:06 :P 00:20:20 -!- calamari_ has joined. 00:20:22 Right now scripts are an extension of the basic MUD syntax, so they come out sort of like shell scripts. 00:21:06 if [ $a = 1 ] \n say hi \n endif 00:21:39 ask wouter to write a language for you 00:21:47 lol 00:21:49 he did the scripting language for FarCry 00:22:08 I'm sure he would be glad to write one off hand for some random person he doesn't know :P 00:22:18 he is genius 00:22:41 GregorR: why not 00:22:59 if some random person on irc asks for a program i often start writing it 00:23:21 jix: Write an MMORPG engine and assign the copyright to me ... please 8-D 00:23:23 :P 00:23:43 GregorR: you are not some random person 00:23:49 Damn :P 00:25:12 GregorR, your code may be perfect, but do your trust your compiler? 00:25:20 -!- calamari has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 00:25:36 I wrote my compiler! And I built my processor, mother board, RAM, hard disk etc from sand. 00:25:57 okay ... 00:26:07 Sand that I /invented/! 00:26:09 GregorR: do you trust the sand... 00:26:18 -!- kipple_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 00:26:24 GregorR: do you trust the process of inventing? 00:26:33 I'd trust sand further than most people. 00:26:36 ... DAMN! Recursion! 00:26:49 -!- kipple has joined. 00:27:04 GregorR: pwnd (i wait for getting killed) 00:27:11 oh this isn't one of your muds... 00:27:15 I don't expect much from sand and it doesn't do much. 00:27:25 int-e: sandstorms? 00:27:27 not-much? 00:27:31 While with people, I don't expect much but sometimes they do an awful lot of stuff 00:27:55 I'd blame the sandstorms on the air, and on the sun. 00:28:00 can't blame the sand really. 00:28:04 int-e: teachers expect an awful lot of stuff BUT... 00:28:21 int-e: without the sand there would be just a storm.. not as harmful as a sandstorm 01:30:15 -!- jix has quit ("Bitte waehlen Sie eine Beerdigungnachricht"). 01:39:15 -!- int-e has quit (Remote closed the connection). 02:07:28 -!- int-e has joined. 02:33:04 -!- calamari has joined. 02:33:09 -!- calamari has left (?). 03:27:33 Gregor, when I finish whatever CRAWL ends up being, want to write a scripting engine for me? 03:27:45 XD 03:28:33 I'll give you absurd and difficult implementation specs 03:29:16 or maybe not. Im not sure yet 03:45:59 -!- kipple has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 04:00:23 YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 04:00:31 Oh, just an engine, not a language? 04:00:38 And also, YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 04:00:48 I just connected to my MUD engine via a MUD client for the first time :) 04:01:13 well, it can be a language, but it has to be within the confines of my already created language, OR something my language can read 04:01:31 I would by far prefer to write an engine and not the language btw ;) 04:02:12 of 04:02:15 oh* 04:02:37 well, in that case, the scripting engine. It's not going to be a MUD, its going to be an RL (roguelike - aka Nethack, ADoM, Angband, etc) 04:18:39 -!- calamari_ has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 04:18:39 -!- pgimeno has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 04:18:39 -!- ChanServ has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 04:18:39 -!- cpressey has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 04:18:39 -!- puzzlet has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 04:18:39 -!- WildHalcyon has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 04:18:39 -!- ZeroOne has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 04:18:39 -!- mtve has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 04:18:39 -!- CXI has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 04:18:40 -!- cmeme has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 04:18:40 -!- lindi- has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 04:18:40 -!- int-e has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 04:18:40 -!- ChanServ has joined. 04:18:40 -!- int-e has joined. 04:18:40 -!- calamari_ has joined. 04:18:40 -!- CXI has joined. 04:18:40 -!- WildHalcyon has joined. 04:18:40 -!- cpressey has joined. 04:18:40 -!- cmeme has joined. 04:18:40 -!- lindi- has joined. 04:18:40 -!- pgimeno has joined. 04:18:40 -!- puzzlet has joined. 04:18:40 -!- ZeroOne has joined. 04:18:40 -!- mtve has joined. 04:18:40 -!- irc.freenode.net has set channel mode: +o ChanServ. 04:18:41 welcome... back? 04:18:44 -!- calamari- has joined. 04:20:53 -!- calamari_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 04:25:52 -!- int-e has left (?). 04:47:51 -!- WildHalcyon has quit ("Adios!"). 06:02:53 -!- WildHalcyon has joined. 06:50:20 Netsplits are wonderful, no? 06:52:15 I didn't see a split 06:52:20 weird.. :) 06:54:25 what is netsplits? 06:54:41 err.. what ARE netsplits? My brain is under-functional today 07:12:46 that's where a server splits off from the rest of the network, for whatever reason 07:13:31 sometimes this means a group of servers too, depending on the way the network is 07:13:47 Hmm.. that sounds weird 07:14:00 what used to be fun on efnet is when the channel became desynched 07:14:04 Im glad my arm doesnt randomly decide to become its own entity 07:14:50 when it's desynched, various servers see various parts of the conversation. 07:15:02 haven't seen that in a long time though 07:15:18 so the whole conversation isnt seen by everyone? That could get interesting 07:17:37 yeah.. its not a straight split, because server 1 could be ppl a,b,d, 2: b, c, e, 3: a, c.. depending on which server you are on.. this would usually happen before a rejoin . I guess the servers would try to combine the conversations again and it took a while, or it'd get confused 07:24:45 maybe if people left and came back during the split.. dunno :) 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:15:04 -!- CXI has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 08:23:42 -!- calamari_ has joined. 08:26:03 -!- calamari- has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 10:03:04 -!- kipple has joined. 11:51:52 -!- jix has joined. 12:31:28 -!- calamari_ has quit ("Leaving"). 13:14:00 -!- jix has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 13:18:56 -!- int-e has joined. 14:35:06 -!- WildHalcyon has quit ("Adios!"). 15:26:27 -!- jix has joined. 15:36:47 moin 16:12:08 Hi jix 16:42:29 * GregorR 's arm splits from his body and starts attacking the villagers. 17:10:34 -!- CXI has joined. 18:38:11 -!- jix has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 18:45:54 -!- cmeme has quit (Remote closed the connection). 18:52:05 > set a to b 18:52:07 > set b to blah 18:52:09 > set c to [ $($a) ] 18:52:10 > set c 18:52:12 blah 18:52:24 Double-indirection ahoy! 19:01:27 -!- WildHalcyon has joined. 19:18:08 -!- Gs30ng has joined. 19:53:44 -!- wooby has joined. 19:59:52 -!- wooby has quit. 20:45:20 -!- jix has joined. 20:46:56 -!- cmeme has joined. 20:47:16 -!- cmeme has quit (Remote closed the connection). 20:47:40 moin 20:47:59 -!- cmeme has joined. 21:04:47 -!- {^Raven^} has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 21:05:01 -!- {^Raven^} has joined. 21:13:05 i hate ActiveX 21:13:19 * jix too 21:13:46 i can't use it 21:14:00 the only good thing about it 21:14:17 this internet lecture site also uses ActiveX control, even though it is run by Korea Government 21:15:29 i hate this. the government should consider FireFox users, or nonWindows OS users 21:16:40 maybe i can sue the government but i have no time for that. entrance exam is 95 days left 21:18:26 jix, what is the only thing good about it? 21:19:51 i can't find any good thing from it 21:20:16 Gs30ng: 21:20:16 22:14:50i can't use it 21:20:16 22:15:04the only good thing about it 21:21:12 ...oops 21:21:22 well, is it good? 21:21:56 yes 21:22:04 because all browser that can use it are insecure 21:22:35 oh, that is good. 21:23:46 can i ask you what kind of OS or browser you use? 21:24:06 mac os x/safari 21:26:30 mac is sweet, but well, i expected more... uhm... esoteric machine (although mac is esoteric enough at here) 21:28:31 yes i'd like to build my own cpu with my own os 21:28:43 and use it for basic tasks like.. programming.. chatting etc... 21:31:12 -!- {^Raven^} has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 21:32:47 -!- {^Raven^} has joined. 22:23:17 -!- puzzlet_ has joined. 22:23:44 -!- tokigun_ has joined. 22:23:44 -!- tokigun has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 22:26:52 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 22:29:53 -!- jix has quit ("Bitte waehlen Sie eine Beerdigungnachricht"). 2005-08-20: 01:20:01 Are we still hating active X? 01:31:49 * pgimeno declares today as the ActiveX cursing day 01:32:47 We hate Active X because MS cripples its OGL implementation to push it. 01:33:17 /me says a brief, but poignant curse about ActiveX, followed by a moment of silence. 01:33:39 hmm.. well, you get the idea 01:37:16 -!- Gs30ng has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 01:38:41 -!- kipple has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 03:25:11 -!- tokigun_ has changed nick to tokigun. 04:27:16 Some french bastards might have already stolen my idea!... :-( 04:27:59 I suppose I can't expect it to be completely original, but considering how few people are aware of 2D languages... 04:40:05 Hmm.. seems I can't track down their implementation. Might have to contact them. In French?! Meh. I'll just keep developing my own since I can't find out about theirs. 06:07:04 -!- calamari has joined. 06:07:06 hi 06:13:53 hi 06:14:00 how's your evening going calamari? 06:46:44 -!- int-e has quit ("Bye!"). 07:34:59 Bwaha! 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:16:19 -!- calamari_ has joined. 08:16:53 hi WildHalcyon, from hours ago :) 08:17:30 my evening.. err, morning now, is fine, thanks ;) 08:34:54 -!- calamari has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 09:49:44 -!- calamari_ has quit ("Leaving"). 10:12:47 -!- jix has joined. 11:07:52 -!- jix has quit ("Bitte waehlen Sie eine Beerdigungnachricht"). 12:35:41 -!- nooga has joined. 13:49:36 -!- kipple has joined. 14:01:41 -!- int-e has joined. 15:57:13 -!- nooga has left (?). 16:38:05 -!- nooga has joined. 16:47:00 * nooga has written an esoteric language and don't know how to explain it's syntax :> 16:47:55 -!- kipple has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 16:48:55 -!- kipple has joined. 16:52:34 Why is the syntax hard to explain? 16:53:05 hmmm 16:53:30 it's like Lisp's syntax 16:53:40 but without those ( ) 16:54:16 and identifiers are 1 char long ;p 16:54:27 that's my explanation 16:54:54 Hmm.. programming paradigm? 16:56:15 ```sii``sii 16:56:25 sounds like unlambda to me 16:56:28 hm 16:56:31 maybe an example 16:56:36 Ah. Of course 16:57:09 :n,3100 @>n0 (2 !n !' 16:57:34 will write numbers from 100 downto 1 separated by spaces ;p 16:58:11 each function must have defined number of arguments 16:58:33 I see 16:58:51 unless it takes the number of arguments as a first argument 16:58:56 like ,3100 16:59:01 I don't know what that does, but I see how that would allow for unique parsing of expressions. 16:59:34 it returns 3 digit long number - 100 17:00:04 What if I wanted a 31 digit number afterwards? 17:00:13 ,,231.... 17:00:21 ohhh 17:00:29 clever 17:00:33 ;> 17:00:50 my english isn't good 17:01:06 but i need to write an description to put it in wikipedia 17:01:22 and i don't know how to write a fancy one 17:02:02 Well, the esolang wiki is nice and public domain, so if you just put something there, folks might clean it up and edit it for you 17:02:13 hmm 17:02:23 maybe that's an idea 17:02:28 thanks 17:03:46 After I see that spec in the wiki, I'd be more than happy to try editing it 17:04:11 thanks 17:05:47 I like that crazy ,,,12345 syntax 17:06:22 * WildHalcyon corrects his syntax to be ,,,12101234567890 17:07:19 :a+,210*b,212 -> a = 10 + b * 12 17:08:12 I've always wanted to write a forward polish notation langusge 17:08:16 language* 17:08:35 huhu 17:08:53 * + 2 3 5 = (2+3)*5 = 25 17:09:32 yup 17:10:01 Does qdeql use that? 17:10:43 Its the only queue based language I know 17:11:02 don't know 17:16:13 i need to write a fancy interperter 17:16:27 in perl for example... 17:17:22 the first one was made in free pascal on my 10 years old laptop ;p 17:18:00 when i was extremely bored 17:19:25 Im guessing the digits input are in decimal? 17:22:05 yup 17:22:54 curious 'bout the name? 17:23:41 Sure, what'll it be called? 17:24:01 SADOL - Sadistic And Damn Odd Language 17:25:03 cool huh? : 17:25:03 That'll work 17:26:45 So you've already got an interpreter? 17:27:18 yea 17:28:33 but it's on my laptop, that crap doesn't even have FDD 17:29:45 FDD? 17:30:25 Floppy Disk Drive :> 17:30:58 oh 17:59:23 * WildHalcyon is still trying to name his language 18:13:29 -!- CXI has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 18:13:59 -!- CXI has joined. 18:15:31 FAOL - fixed arity operator language 18:16:28 ? 18:17:20 "In mathematics and computer programming the arity of a function or an operator is the number of arguments or operands it takes" 18:17:46 i see 18:19:47 Ive been working on how to pass arguments to my functions 18:20:45 and? 18:21:19 &&? ;) 18:21:21 Not sure yet. Might be similar to Pingpong, which has a second stack. There's an operation that pops off the first stack and pushes onto the second stack. 18:21:35 A function might just take arguments off the second stack 18:21:45 Could be difficult to turn into a genetic language though... 18:24:21 ~f1f+#_01 <- a definition of a recursive function in SADOL, in C it looks like: f(x) {return f(x+1);} 18:24:56 _ is a list holding actual parameters 18:25:10 i meen arguments 18:25:39 mean* ;p 18:26:23 whats the 1 between the two fs do? 18:26:47 that's the number of arguments for f 18:27:52 ~abc - defines a function named 'a' with b arguments, c is the body 18:29:31 okay 18:30:21 ~f1f+#_01 -> a = 'f', b = 1, c = 'f+#_01' 18:31:17 #_0 is like _[0] 18:32:12 i mean, #xy returns an element of x list which index is y 18:32:37 damn 18:32:53 i said that i can't explain my own language :/ 18:33:35 How does it know that f is the argument that it takes? 18:34:09 where? 18:34:37 I guess I dont understand the returning arguments... 18:35:15 hmmm 18:35:24 returning values is implicit 18:35:24 there is a list named _ 18:35:40 that holds arguments 18:36:10 what it says is: f takes 1 argument, and f(args) = f(args[0]+1); 18:36:19 right 18:36:22 there is no return statement. 18:36:30 umm 18:36:56 function returns the value of lats call in it's body 18:37:07 last 18:37:40 there is a special functions that does nothing and it's used for grouping other calls 18:37:45 look 18:37:59 (3 +25 -31 *22 18:38:10 will return 4 18:38:16 oh, it's an implicit progn ... hehe 18:38:26 (4 :a+25 -31 *22 a 18:38:38 will return 7 18:38:46 nooga, actually: how can the function have more than one 'statement'? 18:41:18 ~ g 2 (3 :a+#_0#_1 :b*#_0#_1 +ab 18:42:38 ah, ( is progn, ok. 18:42:42 g(args) {a=args[0]+args[1]; b=args[0]*args[1]; return a+b;} 18:43:39 but there is a second tyle of functions 18:43:47 working like , function 18:43:56 ~ g 2 (2 :a+#_0#_1 :b*#_0#_1 +ab would be g(args) {a=args[0]+args[1]; return b=args[0]*args[1];} { a+b } 18:44:01 -!- jix has joined. 18:44:09 that is, two expressions/statements/programs/whatever. 18:44:12 yup 18:44:30 hi jix 18:44:31 you understand 18:45:29 moin 18:45:32 but, let's get back to that functions that arity isn't known 18:46:02 they are defined like this ~ h -01 (... 18:48:20 will the actual number of arguments be part of the arguments then? or will there be a length-of-list operator? 18:49:03 #L-01 returns a length of L list 18:49:27 i mean length = number of elements 18:49:45 L[-1] 18:49:51 hmm. interesting choice, but consistent with the function definition. 18:51:54 lists in SADOL are indexed from 0 18:52:33 heh 19:03:21 do you like it ;p? 19:04:13 I like it, even if I dont understand it yet. Its better than mine, which lacks both a name and a confirmed syntax 19:05:12 nooga: i read the logs sounds cool 19:05:20 but i need to write a fancy documentation ;p 19:05:28 im having problems 19:05:40 ... even in my national language 19:11:07 nooga: i think i got it 19:12:47 ~f0(2f3 never returns but if it would it would return 3.. right? 19:15:15 yes 19:16:16 yea 19:16:28 think i got it 19:16:41 i just need a list of build in functions and a interpreter 19:18:28 i'll write interpreter in perl soon 19:19:15 i think that perl is the best choice bcs SADOL implements lists, and dealing with lists is fairly easy in perl 19:22:37 Hmm, builtin functions. _ -- return current argument list. # list index -- list[index] (index -1 is length), ~ function arity body -- define a function. : variable value -- assign a variable +, -, *, /. variable arguments: , number_of_digits digits -- constant integer (,242 = 42.) ( number_of_terms terms -- progn - execute the terms in order, return value of last term. 19:23:36 right 19:23:50 is there anything that allows conditional execution? 19:24:20 shure 19:24:32 ? condition if_true if_false 19:25:21 @ condition body - works like while(condition) body; 19:26:55 ? condition if_true if_false - works like if(condition) if_true else if_false; 19:34:45 hmm 19:34:57 i'll make a table of built in functions 19:42:18 hyhy 19:44:33 how to write about % a b ? 19:44:42 in C: a%b 19:44:47 returns a modulo 19:45:07 "Returns a modulo of division a by b." ? 19:59:25 remainder 19:59:46 a 20:00:01 in Polish it's named modulo ;p 20:05:32 hah 20:05:41 now, ... 20:05:43 erm 20:05:46 nothing 20:06:00 i'll end that stupid table tomorrow 20:06:07 got to go 20:06:11 bye 20:06:48 bye 20:06:55 -!- nooga has left (?). 20:47:11 -!- WildHalcyon has quit ("Adios!"). 20:50:42 -!- nooga has joined. 21:42:09 me again 21:42:14 int-e: r u there? 21:53:23 maybe 21:54:37 ;> 21:55:09 i need to explain that in english: .3123 = 0.123 21:56:47 . returns .... 21:57:22 hrm 21:57:34 . has a variable number of arguments 21:58:01 and return all arguments as number/10^(number_of_arguments) 21:58:09 yup 21:58:13 that's right 21:58:15 but 21:58:28 returns 0.arguemnts 21:58:55 isn't it called fractional part ? 21:59:41 hmm i'm not a native english speaker.. 21:59:50 yes it is 21:59:55 http://mathworld.wolfram.com/FractionalPart.html 22:15:23 hehe 22:15:41 i've almost done the list of those builtin functions 22:24:00 cool 22:54:34 viola! http://agentj.risp.pl/wysypisko/uploads/sadl.htm 22:55:02 please, help me to correct language mistakes ;p 22:55:15 and excuse my english 22:56:08 nooga: is there a function for getting names longer than 1 char? 22:56:56 and are variables local or global? 22:58:04 global ;p 22:58:12 and all names are 1 char long 22:58:16 ok 22:58:51 i thought about a namespaces ;> 22:59:04 but there's only one char left 22:59:08 ) 22:59:41 no local variables make recursion difficult .. 23:00:33 hm 23:00:38 then maybe 23:00:54 im writing a new interpreter 23:01:27 is a string handled as an integer array (modulo 256) (with popping and pushing and indexing..)? 23:01:43 yup 23:02:09 string pushed on string == appending? 23:02:21 yup 23:02:40 good i'm thinking about a turing completeness proove 23:03:23 what's about comparing strings with numbers? 23:03:43 and using strings in conditions... 23:04:06 string is threated as a number of characters 23:04:15 in that case 23:04:18 so "a" < 2 23:04:21 but "aaa" > 2 23:04:22 yes 23:04:35 got a better idea? :P 23:04:39 ; returns a 1char string or a integer? 23:04:48 it depends 23:04:53 nooga: no but i need some more info for writing programs in it (without interpreter) 23:04:56 depends? 23:05:03 i mean 23:05:06 lol 23:05:16 ow, getch() 23:05:36 ow? 23:05:50 getch in c returns int 23:05:54 it's not equivalent to getch() 23:05:59 i know 23:06:20 i meant 23:06:40 if user will input "A pie" ; will return a string 23:06:51 oh it's multibyte? 23:07:03 if user will input 10.6e-2 ; will return a number 23:07:17 hmm i'd like to have byte wise input 23:07:39 hmm 23:08:10 maybe let ; take an argument (bytes to read) 0 will read one expression (line as string number as integer/float) and 1 will read 1 byte as integer , 2 will read 2 bytes as string 23:08:52 hmm 23:08:54 good idea 23:08:58 and 23:09:23 maybe let the symbols A to Z be global 23:09:38 and a to z will be local 23:09:41 good idea 23:09:57 hm, cool 23:10:00 hmm another thing i need to know.. if i read one byte and get an eof.. what's the value 23:10:04 let me change the table 23:10:20 256, -1 ? (i think numbers are signed ints) 23:10:43 256 23:10:57 ok that's good.. makes binary input possible 23:14:03 are local functions possible? 23:14:17 it's easy if you store them like local varaibles 23:14:26 function in function ? 23:14:29 shure 23:14:38 i really like that language 23:14:43 think i'll implement it 23:14:45 thanks 23:15:41 (2:t"0[tn creates a string containing a byte with the value n? 23:15:54 (2 :t"0 [tn {cleaner} 23:16:41 yes 23:16:47 i've updated the table 23:16:48 g2g 23:16:51 bye ;> 23:16:57 ill be here tommorow 23:16:59 bye 23:17:05 -!- nooga has quit. 23:20:12 (2:i;0#-i,3256(4:t"0[ti!t:i;0 should be a cat program 23:20:55 ;",213Hello, world! 23:21:02 that language is cool 2005-08-21: 00:39:43 -!- jix has quit ("Bitte waehlen Sie eine Beerdigungnachricht"). 04:46:33 -!- WildHalcyon has joined. 05:04:07 -!- kipple has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 05:17:01 hello 05:25:44 hello! 05:26:37 ;) 05:27:30 Ive been working all weekend, havent worked on my esolang :-( 05:27:51 But its given me time to think of an ASM-befunge, using registers and memory. 05:28:02 you mean ASM-to-befunge? 05:28:07 i'm planning (or thinking) esolang which uses binary tree as data structure. there's such the esolang? 05:28:46 Well.. I guess I mean an asm-style befunge variant 05:29:07 hmm... there's any example? 05:29:09 Im not familiar with any esolang that uses trees. A generic binary tree, or do you have a more specific one in mind? 05:29:25 I don't really have an example, no.. 05:29:49 i mean generic binary tree... maybe. 05:30:50 each node has one integer as data, and the program travels the tree. 05:30:51 you could try a heap language too 05:31:29 btw, i cannot understand what is asm-style befunge variant. :S 05:32:13 O don't really know either 05:32:23 Im not going on a lot of sleep here 05:32:25 hehe :) 05:32:30 and apparently can't spell "I" 05:34:55 I like funge varients. they're hypnotic 05:35:30 That nooga fellow has an interesting language. Similar to false, really. 05:49:07 -!- int-e has left (?). 05:52:41 -!- WildHalcyon has quit ("Adios!"). 07:00:26 -!- nooga has joined. 07:12:55 morning 07:21:38 -!- calamari has joined. 07:22:22 hi calamari 07:27:35 hi nooga 07:50:41 how are you calamari? 07:51:51 pretty good, how are you? 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:10:56 fine 08:11:09 excuse me, i was afk ;> 08:13:33 yeah me too.. searching the web for info 08:14:31 hello ;) 08:14:38 hello tokigun 08:16:06 calamari: invented something new? 08:19:15 nope.. I was curious what it would take for my dream portable computer project 08:19:30 I think the main problem is the display 08:19:59 do you plan to use a color lcd ? 08:20:02 a standard character or graphics lcd takes too much power.. the battery will give up after 100 hours or so 08:20:33 a 08:20:33 in order to make it last years, it will need a reflective lcd display, like in a watch 08:21:52 they don't use much power.. in fact an old watch I took apart I could rub the display and just from that certain segments would glow for a few seconds 08:23:02 nooga: i'm reading about your esolang... (SADOL... right?) cmeme is good :) 08:23:02 but isn't it too small? 08:23:19 tokigun: hehe 08:23:40 too small? you mean for a useable computer display? 08:23:41 i need to write a fancy documentation 08:23:50 calamari: yea 08:24:02 but my english is not good actually :> 08:25:29 well, lets say I got an 8 digit model with 00000000 and 7 decimal points. I could generate hex 0-9/A-F for each 08:26:00 I could use the decimal points for whatever I needed, : for a clock, etc 08:26:28 tokigun: i've made a table of built-in functions: http://xdsl-4738.lubin.dialog.net.pl/~nooga/sadol.html 08:26:47 is there SADOL implementation? 08:26:52 yea 08:27:49 but it's not available 08:27:50 nooga: where is it? 08:27:55 uhm 08:27:58 on my laptop :> 08:28:03 ;) 08:28:28 hmm 08:28:37 nooga: all whitespace is ignored? 08:28:48 (except " bulit-in function) 08:29:02 but that laptop is blind and silent 08:29:06 yes 08:29:28 and i thing the ' function is senseless ... 08:29:47 i think i will think change it 08:29:52 hmm 08:29:52 eee 08:29:55 em 08:30:03 i think i will change it* 08:30:07 'a returns 97, 'A returns 65, and so on...? 08:30:08 lol 08:30:10 (i think) 08:30:22 yes 08:31:00 hmm 08:31:06 table says: Returns a char (1 char long string) c. eg. '% = "%" 08:31:26 i mean "how about changing meaning of ' function to blahblahblah" 08:32:12 that table is wrong ;p 08:32:26 obsoleted? 08:33:01 yea 08:33:24 hmm 08:34:26 whart do you think about formatting SADOL code ? 08:34:30 what* 08:34:32 ~ "4blah ... is allowed? 08:34:41 no 08:34:56 id's are one char long 08:34:58 then function name should be 1-byte long? 08:35:07 ids* 08:35:11 yep 08:35:23 ~a ~b ~c ~X ~Y etc. 08:35:33 then if given name is already used by variable? ignored? 08:36:08 variable is overwritten 08:36:18 (in the current implementation) 08:36:22 hmm 08:37:01 if code has too many functions, there would be no room for variables 08:39:45 what language are you writing SADOL intepreter in? 08:44:02 -!- nooga_ has joined. 08:44:06 bla 08:44:37 i had a disconnect 08:45:19 hmm 08:45:26 if code has too many functions, there would be no room for variables 08:45:32 what language are you writing SADOL intepreter in? 08:45:46 perl 08:46:06 the first implementation was made in free pascal, but it was crappy 08:46:10 yeah 08:47:21 in case of underflow, how does [ function work? 08:48:06 returns 0 08:50:32 i suggest that user-defined function can be handled like variable 08:51:11 for example, to define function "a": :a ~3 +#_0 +#_1#_2 08:51:35 hmm 08:51:52 it can be done 08:51:58 hmm 08:52:04 in the new interpreter 08:52:31 but it can be ambiguous.... 08:53:10 if function was given as another function's argument, how to use the function? 08:54:21 an example please 08:54:27 special "apply" function is the solution... but not simple. :S 08:54:29 ah 08:55:14 assume function a and b 08:55:14 -!- nooga has quit (Connection timed out). 08:55:19 oops 08:55:19 -!- nooga_ has changed nick to nooga. 08:55:37 ? 08:56:12 hmm 08:56:48 if b is used as "b a", and b wants to call function a? 08:57:08 function a can be retrieved as "#_0" in function's body, but it cannot be called in current spec. 08:58:08 #_0 will return a result of func. a call 08:58:32 hmm 08:59:40 maybe there is an way to pass a reference to a 08:59:47 then... #_0 xyz is parsed as "#_0 x" if function a has one argument, "#_0 xyz" if function a has three arguments? 09:00:49 erm? 09:01:40 hmm 09:01:51 eh... i mean... uhm 09:03:01 #_0 will return a result of func. a call -- it seems that i don't understand this answer 09:03:39 then, #_0 returns a result of func with no arguments? 09:03:44 no 09:03:56 its 09:03:58 ee 09:04:04 i dont know how to say it 09:04:26 _ returns a list of actual arguments 09:04:37 yes 09:04:42 if i call function f like this: fabc 09:05:06 and f is defined like this ~f3... 09:05:14 ah i know it. 09:05:15 _ = (a,b,c) 09:05:24 i mean if a is function 09:05:35 (and function is treated as variable) 09:05:57 _ holds only values 09:06:38 maybe 09:06:40 hmm i guessed wrong. don't mind it :) 09:07:19 in the current implementation function IS NOT threated as a variable 09:07:26 yes 09:07:41 i can change it in the next versions 09:08:01 maybe 09:08:09 i can redefine \ function 09:08:32 because a it's not that necessary 09:09:18 we can calculate root in that way: ^a.15 09:09:26 so 09:09:30 new \ function 09:09:56 \x will return a reference to x 09:13:09 meh 09:13:13 no 09:13:29 SADOL has got eval function 09:14:44 -!- nooga_ has joined. 09:14:51 heh 09:15:17 :f~1`+#_0"212 f"1a 09:15:22 in the function table, n should be like 1, 2, 3, `3101, ``101234567890? 09:15:40 f will call a12 09:16:28 ah ``2101234567890. 09:17:05 good 09:17:26 hmm 09:17:48 SADOL is evolving :> 09:17:51 :) 09:18:24 nooga_: of course... statements like "+34blahblah are not allowed? 09:18:41 why not ? 09:18:45 hmm 09:18:55 but then 09:19:16 "+34blahbla h 09:19:27 because +34 gives 7 09:19:36 nooga_: how about this case? 09:19:51 :z3 "+z2abcdefghijkl... 09:20:27 meaning of this statement is depend on value of z 09:20:34 yes 09:20:36 it is intended? 09:21:08 sadol interpreter is one, recursive function 09:22:26 so things like that are natural result of SADOL's architecture 09:22:37 i see 09:23:10 i have to implement SADOL in C, or python, and so on... :) 09:23:15 :> 09:23:18 cool 09:23:39 hmmm 09:24:19 i've implemented dynamic typing in my interpreter 09:24:49 in perl or python it is simple... maybe ;) 09:24:51 nooga_: string is not equal to list? 09:29:46 -!- Freya has joined. 09:29:49 damn 09:29:55 heh 09:30:04 heh 09:30:11 -!- Freya has changed nick to nooga__. 09:30:14 damnit 09:30:20 disconnected again 09:31:11 string is a list of chars 09:31:19 indeed 09:31:34 writing SADOL's interpreter in python/perl isn't so hard 09:31:49 but string is a quite special list 09:32:11 then #"3abc1 returns 98? or new string "1b? 09:32:12 -!- nooga has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 09:32:45 "1b in current implementation 09:32:50 hmmm 09:33:16 i think it should return 98... because there is no character-to-code function. 09:33:30 hm, right 09:34:18 it would be great if you try to implement SADOL 09:34:25 yes 09:35:11 i'll implement it, but i have to make clear some problems 09:35:11 you are the second person who wants to implement it :> 09:35:15 ;) 09:35:58 what about calling ; function with argument as list? 09:36:21 hm 09:36:25 example: ;$3123 09:36:25 dont know 09:36:37 current implementation will do nothing 09:36:52 but i think it may return a list 09:37:12 i mean like 3 ; calls in one 09:37:23 oops, sorry. i mean not ; but ! function 09:37:42 i mean !$3123 09:37:56 will print "1 2 3" 09:38:07 -!- calamari has quit ("Leaving"). 09:38:18 gah 09:38:29 got to go 09:38:54 bye, and good luck :> 09:39:01 good bye ;) 09:42:28 -!- nooga_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 09:54:36 -!- nooga__ has left (?). 11:23:36 -!- jix has joined. 11:39:57 -!- WildHalcyon has joined. 11:45:23 Hmm, already been a fairly busy day here... 11:51:05 I think Nooga could free some more instructions if he was running low on implementation space 11:51:11 (for SADOL) 11:51:32 He can free the comma "," by making the period 11:51:42 "." a trinary operator 11:52:21 Maybe that wouldn't work. 11:55:33 .113618 would produce 1.618 11:56:08 But then you couldn't "stack" the digits, but you could then use a comma as a delimiter 11:57:53 Comments could use the same notation for number of characters to skip: {4blah would skip over blah... 12:45:46 -!- WildHalcyon has quit ("Adios!"). 14:07:23 -!- kipple has joined. 14:43:22 -!- jix has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 15:18:19 -!- int-e has joined. 15:44:35 -!- sp3tt has joined. 15:54:08 -!- kipple has left (?). 16:23:47 -!- jix has joined. 16:24:34 moin 16:26:42 -!- sp3tt has quit (Client Quit). 16:53:19 -!- sp3tt has joined. 17:41:00 -!- nooga has joined. 17:41:14 me again 18:04:59 -!- wooby has joined. 18:07:14 -!- wooby has quit (Client Quit). 18:08:58 -!- kipple_ has joined. 18:23:24 -!- nooga has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 18:41:31 -!- sp3tt has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 18:43:17 -!- kipple_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 18:43:17 -!- kipple__ has joined. 21:29:51 -!- calamari has joined. 23:28:50 -!- kipple has joined. 23:28:50 -!- kipple__ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 2005-08-22: 00:06:15 -!- GregorR has quit (Remote closed the connection). 00:13:37 -!- jix has quit ("Bitte waehlen Sie eine Beerdigungnachricht"). 00:23:46 -!- int-e has left (?). 00:37:54 -!- calamari has quit (Connection timed out). 00:38:35 -!- calamari has joined. 00:41:52 -!- kipple_ has joined. 00:41:53 -!- kipple has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 01:17:47 -!- WildHalcyon has joined. 02:20:37 latest processor: DS89C430 02:39:06 -!- kipple_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 04:38:14 -!- calamari has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 04:41:05 -!- calamari has joined. 06:47:31 -!- nooga has joined. 06:47:43 morning 07:19:48 -!- CXII has joined. 07:40:47 tokigun: did you started implementing SADOL ?:> 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:21:35 i guess that means no :> 08:36:13 -!- calamari has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 08:37:34 -!- calamari has joined. 08:38:10 e 08:50:36 hi nooga 08:51:57 hi calamari 10:33:11 -!- pgimeno has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 10:50:40 -!- nooga has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 10:53:16 -!- calamari has quit ("Leaving"). 10:54:06 -!- pgimeno has joined. 11:34:58 -!- jix has joined. 11:49:04 moin 12:00:56 -!- CXII has quit ("If you're reading this, it's probably xchat's fault."). 12:27:51 -!- kipple_ has joined. 12:28:06 -!- kipple_ has left (?). 12:54:01 hello 12:54:11 hmm i've started implementing SADOL 12:55:57 cool 12:57:03 what's the best way to convert a 25,964,951 digit binary number to decimal? 12:57:25 you mean mersenne prime? 12:58:10 hehe 12:58:11 yes 12:58:33 generally FFT is used, but if you really wanna print it see http://fabrice.bellard.free.fr/mersenne.html 12:59:14 that code isn't really readable 12:59:35 :p 12:59:55 It takes about 2 minutes 30 on a 2.4 GHz Pentium 4.... too much 13:12:46 ...you realise that FFT is O(NlogN), right? 13:12:56 it takes such a long time because you're converting a 25 million digit number 13:13:04 if you want to speed it up you could always use a smaller number 13:13:37 i realized that the number is too big 13:21:23 hmm 13:22:29 perhaps i have to use something like Ruby's objectspace 13:24:53 tokigun: why? 13:28:24 recent versions of gmp have a decent radix conversion routine 13:35:51 tokigun: is there a current complete SADOL spec? 13:36:18 nooga has written http://agentj.risp.pl/wysypisko/uploads/sadl.htm -- but he says it is obsoleted. 13:37:50 i think i'll make my own dialect 13:39:36 i think so... current spec is too ambiguous 14:15:57 -!- puzzlet_ has quit (Remote closed the connection). 14:16:07 -!- puzzlet has joined. 14:39:23 I disagree, I dont think the current spec is ambiguous enough 14:39:50 I say, if you can figure out how to build the interpreter from the spec, it gives too much away - like a mystery novel where you know who the bad guy is already! 16:38:15 -!- int-e has joined. 16:57:56 -!- nooga has joined. 16:58:07 hi 16:58:47 wassup? 16:59:05 hmm 16:59:18 tokigun implements SADOL.. 16:59:23 and i thought about it too 16:59:23 yyaaay 16:59:37 * nooga is very happy 16:59:42 ;) 17:00:06 but i'd change some things in my implementation (and give it another name because its a different language then) 17:00:15 mhm 17:00:44 tokigun: will you threat functions like a variables? 17:00:52 nooga: nope 17:01:05 i'll implement original spec first 17:01:36 do you know about that A to Z symbols are always global 17:01:37 ? 17:01:46 and a to z are local... 17:01:49 yes 17:01:55 for functions too 17:02:05 heh? 17:02:07 right 17:02:11 local functions 17:02:12 ah 17:02:31 i see 17:02:44 i'm implementing dynamic typing.. somewhat boring 17:02:49 heh 17:02:51 yea 17:03:06 what language? 17:05:23 ruby afaik 17:05:50 nooga: http://tokigun.exca.net/dev/sadol/sadol.c current code 17:05:52 hehe.. try to imagine me implementing lists and dynamic typing in old Free Pascal 17:06:10 on a 10 years old laptop 17:06:38 tokigun: you talked about ruby... 17:06:51 i thought you use it for implementing 17:06:56 no 17:07:07 i was writing code in c 17:07:33 hmm 17:07:35 respect 17:08:33 writing SADOL interpreter in Perl or other lang. which has got lists and dynamic typing is easier 17:09:33 much easier 17:10:28 oh man 17:10:37 your site is in corean 17:10:42 nooga: another cool esolang idea? 17:10:44 korean 17:10:59 jix: ? 17:11:16 nooga: do you have another cool idea for an esoteric language? 17:11:21 no 17:11:46 unfortunately no 17:12:01 nooga: yes i'm korean 17:12:08 hehe 17:12:23 and as you see, my english is not very well ;) 17:12:54 hehe 17:12:57 like mine 17:13:01 im Polish 17:13:11 * jix is german 17:13:43 lol, that korean signs look kinda esoteric :) 17:14:59 jix: actually i have one idea 17:15:27 but it's brainfuck based 17:15:36 and that makes it uncool 17:15:42 my only language is brainfuck based too :( 17:16:07 i don't have good ideas... 17:18:15 so 17:18:44 mine is brainfuck in perforated-card-like notation 17:18:47 + ' .' 17:18:48 - '. ' 17:18:48 > ' :' 17:18:48 < ': ' 17:18:48 [ '.:' 17:18:49 ] ':.' 17:18:51 . '..' 17:18:53 , '::' 17:19:32 that is even more uncool than mine because it's just another name for the same things... ;) 17:19:33 and program must be written as separate rectangles 16x24 characters 17:28:30 http://rafb.net/paste/results/os31mB56.nln.html 17:28:33 an example ;p 17:29:50 it doesn't load here 17:30:05 http://rafb.net/paste/results/os31mB56.html 17:30:28 no the whole rafb.net page doesn't respond... 17:30:36 huh 17:30:41 werid 17:30:49 i can ping the server 17:30:52 ah it works now 17:31:25 but it's just another way to write brainfuck 17:31:31 my language is based on brainfuck but different 17:31:44 http://esolangs.org/wiki/YABALL 17:32:30 a 17:32:43 2d 17:32:54 hehe 17:33:12 maybe it will be funny to write SADOL interpreter in Java 17:33:23 and create MSADOL 17:33:34 Multithreaded SADOL >:D 17:34:23 wow 17:35:09 but i dont know Java ;p 17:36:45 damn 17:37:04 my dog needs to ... nvm 17:37:26 got to go... maybe i'll be back 17:37:32 bye 17:37:36 -!- nooga has quit ("Leaving"). 17:37:51 i'm going to sleep 17:37:53 bye ;) 17:38:19 to sleep? 17:45:56 it's 1:41 AM in Korea 17:46:10 oops 1:50 AM 17:48:36 fix your clock (18:47:15oops 1:50 AM) 17:49:30 perhaps there's a personal daylight saving time in my computer 17:50:09 or something i don't know 17:50:20 ;) 17:50:37 i sync my clock with a timeserver so it should be the correct time 17:50:48 so do i 17:50:53 hum 17:50:55 my ubuntu should do it for me 17:51:03 my osx should do it for me 17:51:23 i got an idea 17:51:26 ask ChanServ 17:51:48 only if i can know how. 17:52:00 nonsense. 17:52:32 your clock is 2 minutes in front of mine.. (and a few time zones but that doesn't affect minutes) 17:52:48 hm back 17:52:54 i know 17:53:16 oops 17:53:16 i got a remote server crashed and i can't figure out why 17:53:39 when i ping it doesn't pong back 17:53:47 i also sync my clock with a timeserver 17:54:02 tokigun: your clock is -1 min (compared with mine) 17:54:06 hmm 17:54:08 wait... 17:54:18 maybe the timeserver-hoster want chaos all over the world! 17:54:24 it says it's 01:55:27 KST 17:54:30 IRC must have a good time sync bot 17:54:32 maybe the nasa kidnapped all timeserver-hosters 17:55:05 what for? 17:55:06 hmm 17:55:17 to control the time 17:55:33 but time flys like an arrow 17:55:38 when my clock reads 01:55:27, cmeme says it was 01:55:28 17:56:03 it seems that my clock is correct with error less than 10 seconds 17:56:12 hmm yes 17:56:24 have to restart my mac.. new tv-card driver installed 17:56:27 then it's me whose time's incorrect 17:56:54 AAARGH MY SERVER!! 17:57:09 -!- jix has quit ("Bitte waehlen Sie eine Beerdigungnachricht"). 17:57:22 puzzlet: when my sync program was inactive for unknown reason, it has error more than minutes. :S 17:58:28 does that mean your hardware fails to keep its clock constant? 17:59:31 linux doesn't use hardware clock when it's running afaik 17:59:58 it just reads it on bootup 18:00:43 -!- jix has joined. 19:03:05 -!- nooga has joined. 19:07:07 how's it going? 19:07:23 -!- CXII has joined. 19:08:19 -!- CXI has quit (Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)). 19:08:48 tokigun 19:26:52 -!- WildHalcyon_ has joined. 19:32:56 hello 19:34:53 hello nooga 19:46:56 -!- WildHalcyon has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 19:59:14 -!- Freya has joined. 19:59:19 gah 19:59:27 -!- Freya has changed nick to nooga_. 19:59:46 jix 20:02:27 jix 20:02:30 r u there? 20:04:29 -!- nooga has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 20:06:21 -!- nooga_ has changed nick to nooga. 20:06:33 * nooga listens to the Pink Floyd ;p 20:33:22 lol -> http://photos6.flickr.com/7234920_0aed5a3cd2.jpg?v=0 20:40:14 heh] 20:43:47 blah blah blah 20:43:52 anybody here? 21:23:51 hola 21:24:43 -!- WildHalcyon_ has changed nick to Wildhalcyon. 21:37:04 -!- nooga has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 21:45:18 -!- {^Raven^} has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 21:45:18 -!- {^Raven^} has joined. 2005-08-23: 00:05:48 -!- GregorR-W has joined. 00:05:53 Hullo 00:36:26 hola 00:36:49 Hey! 00:36:55 Could you write this exact line to this channel? 00:37:46 Could I write what exact line to this channel? 00:38:25 Could you write /this/ exact line (the line I am writing, this very question) to this channel? 00:38:51 sure 00:38:57 Could you write this exact line to this channel? 00:38:58 i could 00:39:00 any particular reason why? 00:39:07 I'm trying to make an IRP quine :P 00:39:15 http://www.esolangs.org/wiki/IRP 00:39:44 OK, so now that you know the background a bit better (I want a nice clean log :) ) 00:39:50 Could you write this exact line to this channel? 00:39:57 yes 00:40:06 you just asked my if i could 00:40:10 Damn XD 00:40:15 Please write this exact line to this channel. 00:40:18 if you want us to do it you have to write Please write this exact... 00:40:22 Please write this exact line to this channel. 00:40:53 Please write this exact line to this channel. 00:41:21 Hmmm, Gregor, Im afraid your language has an unusual amount of side effects 00:41:22 Oh no, a recursive quine ;) 00:41:26 it also seems to be nondeterministic 00:41:32 Yes, I marked that ;) 00:41:42 Now let me test some of the programs I posted ... 00:41:48 Please say "Hello, World!" 00:42:04 Hello, World! 00:42:11 Yeee haw! 00:42:20 Goodbye, cruel world 00:42:56 Please say "/quit if this is my quit message I'm stupid" 00:43:10 /quit if this is my quit message I'm stupid 00:43:13 this is a interpreter compatibility check 00:43:19 sorts out bad implementations 00:43:23 Heheh 00:43:29 hmmm, I see 00:43:40 These are the first 16 digits of the fibonacci sequence: 0 1 1 2 3 5 8 13 21 34 55 89 144 233 377 610 987 00:43:45 Please, some one write the first 16 numbers of the Fibonacci Sequence. 00:43:58 the first 16 numbers of the Fibonacci Sequence. 00:44:06 Clever :P 00:44:09 Plus, I wrote 17 up there 00:44:15 So I lose. 00:44:58 Please, compute 3^^^3 00:45:09 I'm not sure what "^^^" means .. 00:45:24 Its power tower notation 00:45:43 it means 3^(3^(3^3)) 00:45:50 Ah. 00:46:49 please tell me the digital root of the largest know prime number 00:47:19 What is the largest known prime number? 00:47:24 Should I calculate it first? :P 00:47:42 GregorR-W: 2^25964951 - 1 00:47:52 Its between 1 and 9 00:47:54 * GregorR-W cracks his knuckles :P 00:48:06 I'll go with 5+- 4 00:48:22 please tell me the exact solution 00:48:24 ... wait. What base? 00:48:28 1 00:48:29 base 10 00:48:31 1 base 2 00:48:32 darn 00:49:04 This is where it becomes clear that IRP is not turing complete ;) 00:49:08 error: out of bounds 00:49:44 GregorR-W: well you can calculate it with a few 32bit integers 00:50:18 If somebody was so inclined, they could write a program and then respond with the proper answer *shrugs* 00:50:31 However, the whole language depends on the inclination of the fellow IRP programmers :P 00:50:45 DigitalRoot_10(2^n) == DigitalRoot_10(2^(n mod 6)) afaik 00:52:56 please print the interpreter's release date. 00:53:12 Sorry, I don't tell my age to people online ;) 00:53:21 GregorR-W: why not? 00:53:46 Because if you knew the truth, /IT WOULD HAUNT YOU FOR ALL ETERNITY/!!!!! 00:54:19 lol 00:54:27 I'm not sure why ... 00:54:48 GregorR, Im already haunted for all eternity. Mostly by guilt and humiliation 00:54:57 Awesome-o. 00:55:08 my release date is 05 Apr 1991 00:55:23 Wow 00:55:50 yeah i'm up-to-date 00:56:05 with all the latest bugs 00:56:55 lol 00:57:08 Sorry, Im just kidding 00:57:26 Wildhalcyon: i think i'm bug free.. i hope so 00:57:38 i'd dislike it if there are bugs in me... 00:58:42 there are bugs in my programming 00:58:43 Gregor is an undergraduate college student. 00:58:49 That's as close as you get to know :P 00:59:07 i'm un-us i don't know what a undergraduate college student is... 00:59:23 Im a graduate college program 00:59:24 First four years of college. 00:59:28 (Usu.) 00:59:39 Going for a B{S,A,M} 00:59:42 what's college? 01:00:05 University ... don't know other international words for it. 01:00:22 ah 01:00:51 (Well, actually, college != university, but they're used almost interchangeably in most scenarios) 01:01:02 generally, yes ;-) 01:01:18 * Wildhalcyon has attended both colleges and universities 01:01:38 A university is a conglomeration of colleges (at least, in the US) 01:02:15 So PSU, my university, has a college of engineering and computer science, a college of business, a college of education, etc. 01:02:40 But the terms are nowhere near that concrete :P 01:02:57 Dern you for making me realize that particular flaw in the English language :P 01:03:35 its not YOUR flaw with the language, its a flaw within the language itself 01:05:08 I claim this flaw in the name of Gregor Richards! 01:05:11 * GregorR-W puts a flag on it. 01:05:53 please give me 1000 Euro 01:06:01 It shall now be known as the Gregor Richards Ambiguity 01:06:21 hmm i think this feature isn't supported by any interpreter 01:06:29 * Wildhalcyon charges a naming consultation fee 01:13:38 So Im trying to decide how to deal with functions and threads 01:16:56 -!- Wildhalcyon has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 01:17:49 You've awakened the gazebo! It catches and eats you. 01:31:26 calculate a prime number that is larger than the largest known prime number 01:53:45 people are already spending more computing power on that than is good for them 01:54:33 i don't know what that is.. i'm feeling stupid now... http://redhanded.hobix.com/-h/hoodwinkDDayOneForcingTheHostToAttendTheParty.html 02:10:04 -!- jix has quit ("Bitte waehlen Sie eine Beerdigungnachricht"). 02:17:34 -!- WildHalcyon has joined. 02:19:26 Anyone have any suggestions for character sets to use besides ASCII and Unicode? Something a lil' more.. erm... esoteric? 02:21:26 ebcdic 02:22:27 it's interesting to compare ebcdic and ascii, and then look at the base64 character table. 02:24:50 Hmmm, I'll take a look 02:24:53 thanks for the suggestions 02:48:05 -!- GregorR has joined. 03:31:33 -!- calamari has joined. 03:31:46 hi 03:32:25 well, my automata class won't be covering lambda calculus.. not even mentioned in the book 03:34:19 poor calamari 03:34:31 but it doesn't belong to automata theory 03:46:17 well the class is actually about the theory of computation 03:46:29 -!- pgimeno has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 03:46:29 oh. 03:46:35 it belongs to that, yes. 03:46:45 finite automata is just a part of the class 03:47:07 finite automata are boring. hmm. let me guess, it does stack machines and turing machines, too? 03:47:25 stack machines = push down automata. 03:47:26 turing machines.. not sure about stack 03:47:36 haven't been to the first class yet 03:50:19 topics: Deterministic finite automata, Nondeterministic finite automata, Regular expressions, Nonregular languages (Pumping Lemma), Context-free grammars, Pushdown automata, Non-context-free languages, Turing machines, Decidability, Reducibility, Complexity (P/NP/NP-c) 03:50:48 so yeah.. stack machines :) 03:52:13 me bends a piece of memory into two stacks.. yay 03:52:16 heh 03:52:40 at least I assume that's what a stack machine is about 03:55:52 a pushdown automaton has only a single stack 03:55:57 -!- pgimeno has joined. 03:56:15 so it's computationally weaker than a turing machine but stronger than a finite state automaton 04:29:26 hmm. wonder if 2 queues is enough 04:30:41 seems like a circular queue would be 04:36:26 no, couldn't possibly be.. because then memory would be finite 04:40:14 hmm, queues alone don't seem like they are enough, because they'd have to be finite 04:41:33 well, maybe 04:42:46 afk.. gotta think about this some more :) 04:44:41 yeah.. seems that a stack can be emulated with 2 queues 04:45:02 so it'd take 4 queues to be tc? 04:45:27 oops 04:45:57 blah.. messed up my diagram 04:57:53 a circular queue is enough if it can grow. 04:58:01 yeah 04:58:33 which is easy using the same interface as a stack - push (on one end) and pop (from the other). 04:59:01 right... that's what I was originally thinking.. but I for some reason thought it had to be fixed size 04:59:34 I'm trying to think about 2 growing non-circular queues 05:05:04 a queue is easily made to be circular, so I guess it doesn't matter 05:08:32 it's a queue. the circularity is an implementation detail. right. 05:34:24 Time for the Unturing Test! 05:34:34 Here's how it works: 05:35:41 You declare the Unturing Test with about 10 people (staggered over time), and attach ELIZA to 5 of them. The other 5 you communicate with, trying to emulate ELIZA. If you fool any of the 5 that you did not attach ELIZA to, you are successfully Artificially Unintelligent! 05:38:44 Is it because I did not attach eliza to I am successfully artificially 05:38:44 unintelligent that you came to me? 05:47:32 lol 05:47:47 How to you feel about I did not attach eliza? 05:47:58 lol -> Can you elaborate on that? 05:48:09 How do, rather :-P 05:48:14 XD 05:48:27 stupid emacs doctor mode. 05:48:36 I wonder if you can turn MegaHAL into ELIZA... 05:51:11 good night 05:51:23 -!- int-e has quit ("Bye!"). 06:00:40 0 1 1 2 3 5 8 13 21 34 55 89 144 233 377 610 06:01:38 now you can update the IRP page ;) 06:02:30 -!- nooga has joined. 06:02:37 hello 06:02:40 lol 06:02:44 ? 06:02:47 hey nooga 06:02:53 hi nooga, WildHalcyon 06:02:59 Im laughing at something else, nm 06:03:25 Your talk on queues got me thinking calamari 06:03:47 glad someone is.. not sure I am tonight :) 06:04:06 You seemed to be doing alright earlier 06:04:16 Im just pondering other potential data structures that could be used 06:04:31 priority queue? 06:05:08 I thought about that, but Im not sure 06:05:44 yeah, not sure about that 06:05:59 I broke out my Data Structures book from undergrad to take a look at other options 06:06:27 hehehe 06:06:34 22:07 06:06:56 * calamari hides from WildHalcyon's B-Tree 06:07:24 you think a B-Tree is the worst up my sleeve? 06:07:49 * WildHalcyon laughs evilly 06:08:29 * nooga wonders how's tokigun going with SADOL interpreter ;> 06:09:16 right now, Im debating between a treap, a k-d tree, and a pairing heap 06:10:03 hmm... fibonacci heaps seem pretty neat too 06:10:13 o.O 06:10:48 Treaps are cool because they could be used to implement a sort of "bag" data structure 06:11:06 You can put stuff in, but every time you pull something out, its random. 06:11:49 Basically, its a stack with a push operation and a pop which pops randomly from the bag. Nice and nondeterministic 06:13:36 o.O 06:15:08 k-d looks good 06:15:49 Im not sure if it counts as being TC, because you're never GUARANTEED to get the result you want 06:15:53 Yeah, I like k-d trees 06:16:14 I was thinking a 2-d 06:32:04 what are k-d trees? 06:34:57 A way to hold two types of data and search for a combo of both 06:36:42 the rows alternate between the two types.. i.e. when deciding which goes left and which goes right underneath it 06:37:59 Right, essentially, a 2-d tree has two types, a 3-d tree has three types to search among, etc. 06:38:24 so if the types are A and B.. the root would be based on A.. so if you had (A-1,4) it'd go left, (A+1,4) goes right. But, now.. the 2nd row is based on B.. so if B>4 go right, otherwise left 06:38:40 hope that makes some kind of sense.. I have no really studied these trees :) 06:40:35 That's pretty much it. At each level of the binary tree, sort based on different types of data 06:41:47 hmm.. lets say BST bf... you'd have left/right/up 06:41:58 (keeping it simple at first) 06:43:14 but you'll also want to be able to manipulate the tree 06:43:25 insert and delete 06:45:15 hmm .. maybe an avl 06:46:34 nah.. who cares if it's balanced :) 06:56:07 hm 06:57:20 hmm, maybe it's just been too long since data structures, but it doesn't seem like trees and arrays really mix, unless it's a non-bst 06:58:12 how to say 'without any arguments' in one word? 06:58:22 argumentless ? 06:58:24 ;> 07:01:53 huh? 07:02:32 seems like there is a special word to describe that for asm intructions, but I can't think of it 07:04:13 hm 07:04:28 then i'll use 'argumentless' 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:28:10 -!- nooga_ has joined. 08:32:36 hehe 08:32:46 SADOL's homepage is almost done 08:37:32 -!- nooga_ has quit. 08:45:45 -!- nooga has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 08:51:08 -!- calamari has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 09:55:00 -!- nooga has joined. 09:55:08 hi 10:04:44 -!- jix has joined. 10:17:24 -!- nooga has quit. 11:30:05 moin 13:28:46 -!- nooga has joined. 13:29:59 hi 13:30:05 r u there tokigun? 13:33:09 -!- nooga has quit (Client Quit). 14:08:43 -!- Keymaker has joined. 14:09:08 evenin' 14:12:46 nooga: good to hear SADOL's page is almost done 14:13:00 i checked the 'pre-version' or something; seemed interesting 14:18:49 GregorR: 1, 1, 2, 3, 5, 8, 13, 21, 34, 55, 89, 144, 233, 377, 610, 987 14:19:18 Wow, that program took a long time to run. 14:19:23 :) 14:19:40 great language 14:21:06 Why thank you 8-D 14:24:08 :) 14:24:27 i think i'll add my Unnecessary to joke languages list 14:28:20 what is good word for 'source code'? 14:28:44 "source code" is an excellent word (OK, phrase) for "source code" :-P 14:28:51 :p 14:28:58 but any other word? 14:29:36 Hmmmmmmmmmm 14:29:52 nah, that has too many 'm's 14:30:01 If it wasn't 6:30AM here, I might be able to think of one. 14:30:21 i see. 14:30:34 well, better get to work then >:) 14:31:59 I will :-P 14:32:23 :) well, i guess i use 'program file' then 14:32:27 i don't like word 'source' 14:34:54 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 14:53:45 -!- CXII has changed nick to CXI. 15:17:42 bye. 15:17:44 -!- Keymaker has quit ("I've seen this dj vu before.."). 16:58:59 Have I left this logged in all night? 16:59:04 That's probably no good :P 17:15:36 Meh 17:29:58 -!- nooga has joined. 17:32:51 hm hehe] 17:33:09 hello] 17:36:08 moin nooga 17:36:55 -!- int-e has joined. 17:48:12 jix: i guess you're using apple computer huh? 17:49:32 OS 8.2 ? 17:52:21 -!- int-e has left (?). 18:01:46 huh? 18:05:07 nooga: mac os x 10.4 18:07:01 but i used at least one version of all mayor versions starting with 7 (7.x,8.x,9.x,10.0.x,10.1.x,10.2.x,10.3.x,10.4.x) 18:07:16 nooga: why do you ask? 18:07:30 hm 18:07:38 ist's kinda exotic 18:07:56 once i even wanted to buy a Mac Mini 18:08:30 it has poor graphic performance 18:08:54 to get all the osx eye-candy you need a better graphic card than the one of the mini 18:09:32 the mini graphic card has no core-image acceleration support 18:10:19 i thought that the mini has got radeon 9200 18:10:42 hmm radeon 9200 is maybe too old for core-image acceleration 18:12:23 core image makes intensive use of fragment-shaders (the basic effects of the UI don't use them but the dashboard widget drop effect does) 18:15:51 heh 18:16:04 i've got nVidia gf4 MX 440 in my PC ;p 18:16:15 hmm is that good? 18:17:18 nope 18:18:14 do you know that drop-in effect? 18:18:19 from dashboard 18:18:55 no 18:19:29 i made a video (mpeg 4) it's a bit slow because of screen recording 18:19:31 http://rapidshare.de/files/4292460/dropin.mp4.html 18:19:38 click on free and the download should start... 18:20:50 you have to wait a few seconds.. 18:25:23 nooga: ? 18:25:39 I've got an Nvidia GeForce 2. 18:25:41 Works great. 18:25:59 GregorR: my old gf2mx worked great too 18:26:07 i just missed this drop-in effect 18:26:48 and 80% of the quartz-composer effects (a developer tool for effect composition but i don't know any app that uses this) 18:27:28 hm 18:27:30 and i can play games on higher resolutions now...(ati radeon 9800pro) *g* 18:27:37 excuse me 18:28:11 http://pastebin.ca/20877 18:28:14 Megahal = smart. 18:29:19 hehe 18:29:25 i can't open mp4 18:29:43 nooga: do you have quicktime? 18:30:01 version 6 or newer? 18:30:10 older ;p 18:30:18 video lan client works too 18:31:58 You people and your visual effects. 18:32:14 GregorR-W: *g* 18:32:23 How could that effect possibly be useful :P 18:32:43 GregorR-W: there is a simple answer... 18:33:00 hyh 18:33:07 GregorR-W: it wasn't meant to be useful.. it was meant to make windows user think "WOW LOL OMG! I want to have THAT!" 18:33:10 i run windows without any effects :> 18:33:22 i've got XP, but it looks like nt 4 :p 18:33:36 Make it look like NT3! 18:33:39 NT3 rawx0rz! 18:33:43 ehehe 18:33:52 but that's true 18:34:05 MacOS X looks eyecandy 18:34:15 i have no problem with the effects because mac os x uses hw accelerated blitting for everything.. makes no difference if there is an alpha channel or not... 18:34:23 i helped to develop SenseOS 18:35:00 we wanted to make OpenGL GUI and make it look even better than MAcOS X ;p 18:35:11 but the project has died 18:35:22 but someday i take 20 arm or ppc or custom processors and build my own computer with my own os ... 18:35:48 currently we have GUI on VESA with complete API that looks exactly like BeAPI 18:35:57 and some ports from unix 18:36:13 i don't know polish... can't read that... 18:37:04 coreutils, binutils, makeutils, gcc, perl, bash, nano, mc, irssi, elinks etc etc. 18:37:15 jix? what polish? 18:37:26 nooga: i googled for SenseOS 18:37:40 ah, it's completely dead 18:37:48 it has font anti-alliasing 18:37:49 maybe i've got some screens 18:37:59 huh? 18:38:00 i've got some... 18:38:11 http://agentj.risp.pl/?Projekty:SenseOS:Screenshoty 18:38:25 /away 18:38:45 a 18:38:48 hmh 18:38:57 and freetype support ;p 18:42:12 but it's f*in dead 18:42:17 ...for some time 19:00:49 -!- GregorR-W has left (?). 19:17:06 hyh 19:17:08 http://nooga.int.pl/sadol/index.php 19:33:56 tokigun 19:34:01 pleeez say something 19:38:33 say that you finished it ! 21:09:14 heh 21:28:05 -!- {^Raven^} has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 21:28:59 -!- {^Raven^} has joined. 21:41:51 -!- WildHalcyon has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 21:53:47 -!- jix has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 21:55:20 -!- jix has joined. 22:09:53 hi jix 22:13:55 -!- WildHalcyon has joined. 22:16:29 be careful with recursive forks 22:16:37 o.O 22:16:38 As Ive mentioned more than is good for me, I'm creating a Funge-derivative which uses separate topological spaces for different functions, and each is given a label 22:16:49 /away 22:17:32 Im trying to think of a way in which to assign a cell to multiple function spaces simultaneously 22:20:19 (reading the SNUSP spec again) Is it just me, or is there something... enchanting... about seeing the f-bomb dropped in what looks like an academic paper? 22:33:58 hehe 22:41:53 people should learn to use pdf(la)?tex 22:42:52 those =>dvi=>pdf things have no pdf specific features like links in the Contents and arn't nice on the screen 22:42:55 hyh 22:43:02 =>dvi=>ps=>pdf is even worse... 22:44:17 huh 22:45:02 nooga: ? 22:45:41 that is no fun! 22:46:32 this snusp sepc pdf is really fucked up 22:46:32 allrigh allrigh 22:46:53 i select text.. copy it... and get %/]||]01}“¶}≠¶|¢ alike things... 22:51:33 made my own pdf out of the textfile 22:52:09 -z 22:52:10 -t 22:52:16 -'-z' 22:52:17 arg 22:52:20 wanna see a funny pic ;p ? 22:52:37 -!- calamari has joined. 22:53:44 look, o'reilly has released a book about SADOL: http://nooga.int.pl/sadol/sadol.jpg 22:54:18 harhar 22:54:33 ;] 22:56:20 gn8 22:56:27 -!- jix has quit ("Bitte waehlen Sie eine Beerdigungnachricht"). 22:56:28 well, definitely to lambda calculus.. asked hte instructor and he said No :) 22:56:32 to->no 23:10:14 heh 23:10:38 * nooga likes manipulations with photoshop :> 23:13:27 Jix, whats this about pdf(la)?tex ??? 23:13:32 ack... nm, he left 23:13:52 fyi nooga, the word you're looking for is "painful" 23:17:44 a 23:17:46 ;> 23:26:51 -!- nx5_off has joined. 23:27:20 -!- nx5_off has changed nick to nx5. 23:27:20 huh 23:27:55 WildHalcyon: but say, you like that cover 23:28:21 nooga: ever find a better word than argumentless ? 23:28:57 huh? 23:29:08 maybe that wasn't you.. sorry :) 23:29:20 that was me 23:29:39 ahh ok.. 23:29:40 i just wrote 'argumentless' 23:29:41 ;> 23:29:45 need food cya 23:29:47 -!- calamari has quit ("Leaving"). 23:29:53 oh 23:35:58 Nooga, its alright... the fact that half the girl's head is cut off bothers me a bit 23:36:00 but thats cool 23:36:26 i tried to find other 23:37:25 but that one was the best: http://images.google.com/images?client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Apl-PL%3Aofficial_s&q=dominatrix&hl=pl&btnG=Szukaj+obraz%C3%B3w ;p 23:45:37 Hmm.. yes, I can see 23:45:46 ;p 23:45:55 There was no way to reposition her on the cover though? 23:46:09 yea 23:49:05 hmmm 23:57:34 hehe 23:57:38 what a stupid joke 23:57:52 making false book covers :> 2005-08-24: 00:00:36 There are lots of stupid jokes. several are esolangs 00:00:57 :> 00:01:18 Then again, SOME esolangs are so cool, it makes me poop my pants 00:01:28 :>>> 00:02:10 Have you heard of a language called Frink? 00:02:15 no 00:02:22 Its an engineering language, every calculation keeps track of units 00:02:51 among other features (arbitrary-precision floats) 00:03:07 i googled :> 00:03:40 looks pretty neat 00:04:58 I think it could be refined better... I'd try redesigning it myself, but personally, Im having enough trouble with my esolang. Ive settled on a name, now if only I could decide on some syntax issues 00:05:37 ;] 00:06:06 I have a sort of sandbox syntax, but its not ready for the public, since its still fairly undefined and messy 00:06:39 now i think that SADOL programs are looking very cool :D 00:07:04 ~q1:i0:n##_0-01@|###_0i-010q##_0i!##_0i qP 00:07:07 like that one :> 00:07:10 Yeah, your language is definitely coming together nicely 00:07:21 thanks 00:07:24 Let me know when you've implemented a complex GUI system and some networking ;-) 00:07:33 ;> 00:07:40 it's possible 00:08:18 i thought about macros 00:08:23 in SADOL 00:08:59 you know, the basic ones, like include, define.. 00:09:36 That stuff always seemed unclean. I felt dirty after programming in C for too long. Had to take a shower 00:10:54 ;> 00:11:41 Okay, Im joking, but seriously... C bothered me a lot. C++ didn't help. Java makes me ill. Im just not meant for normal programming languages 00:12:55 Im trying to keep everything in my language as orthogonal as possible. Im sacrificing things such as conventional notions of I/O and keeping the language fairly small 00:14:10 :> 00:32:17 -!- WildHalcyon has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 00:57:08 -!- WildHalcyon has joined. 01:10:22 -!- nx5 has changed nick to nx5_off. 01:27:30 -!- WildHalcyon_ has joined. 01:28:10 Im ready to kill my isp 01:35:45 -!- WildHalcyon has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 01:38:08 -!- int-e has joined. 01:58:01 -!- WildHalcyon_ has changed nick to Wildhalcyon. 01:58:16 hehe 01:58:40 Wildhalcyon: cycling :> 02:09:11 what am I cycling? 02:10:06 going in and out 02:18:40 I can't help it. My retarded ISP is like "you dont really want to be online anymore..." 02:22:42 ;p 02:26:52 -!- nooga has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 02:30:32 -!- nooga has joined. 02:30:48 see, just like you buddy ;-) 02:31:20 ;) 02:31:30 i was swiching to linux 02:34:32 Oh, well.. okay. You had a good reason. 02:42:23 huh 03:07:47 * nooga yawns 03:11:02 i must catch tokigun 03:12:03 You'll never catch him 03:12:09 he's the gingerbread man 03:12:49 hehe 03:13:03 that reminds me one song 03:13:10 by Pink Floyd 03:13:57 reminds me of.. the gingerbread man, I guess. Could be a pink floyd song. Im less familiar with them than I ought to be 03:18:34 hiehie 03:19:07 "...take a couple if you wish... there are on the dish..." 03:19:19 tfu 03:19:24 they're* 03:22:26 How would you feel about an OO-like language that allowed a member of one object to belong to belong to another object as well? 03:23:44 heh 03:23:46 Im not quite sure how I feel about this yet.. just trying some ideas out today 03:24:01 may be interesting 03:24:40 Im not even super-clear on where Im trying to go with everything right now. The spec is a real mess... :-( 03:25:21 it's hard to invent something new 03:25:56 cool ideas are mostly coming when you're far away from computer 03:26:13 or by accident 03:26:45 Its not that I don't have a good idea.. its that I dont have good ideas on how to implement the good idea. And then Im trying to union that with ANOTHER good idea... and neither is really going well 03:26:51 hmm 03:26:53 i'm back 03:26:59 oh, hi :F 03:27:03 :S 03:27:30 Wildhalcyon You'll never catch him 03:27:30 Wildhalcyon he's the gingerbread man 03:27:38 (i'm using irc proxy so i'm always connected to server but i cannot answer always.) 03:27:38 ;p 03:27:46 shure 03:28:09 Thats quite alright Tokigun. Your silence speaks volumes 03:28:30 nooga: SADOL implementation is not finished... :S 03:28:40 i'm working on it. 03:28:51 i just tried to ask about that 03:29:06 i don't even dare to suspect that it's done 03:29:14 ;] 03:29:17 ;) 03:29:40 what have you implemented? 03:29:43 yet 03:30:11 dynamic typing system is almost implemented, but language isn't. 03:30:17 ;> 03:30:33 (i had to implement them yesterday but i was so busy...) 03:30:37 i've almost finished SADOL's site -> http://nooga.int.pl/sadol/ 03:30:50 Alright, Im going to go back to the drawing board. I think the syntax for multiple function labels will be too complex - especially for use in a digital organism simulation. bbl 03:31:35 And i've found something on o'reilly :D -> http://nooga.int.pl/sadol/sadol.jpg 03:31:42 nooga: XD 03:31:56 hmm 03:32:30 nooga: '"1% should return 37? 03:33:21 yep 03:33:32 '"3%yz also 03:33:32 i think '% is ambiguous 03:34:16 in the example, ',237 returns "%". but it can be parsed as "ASCII code of character ','(comma)". 03:34:29 o fuck 03:34:54 you're right 03:35:17 you'd better change the example ;) 03:35:27 yea 03:35:35 what a shame 03:35:44 im lost in my own language 03:35:48 -.-' 03:36:10 hahaha ^^ 03:37:06 heh 03:46:12 !"7SADOL\n@1(3!"2> `;0!"2\n 03:46:15 viola 03:46:37 a SADOL interactional interpreter written in SADOL :) 03:46:56 it's voila :) 03:47:11 whatever 03:47:13 ;p 03:47:22 i hate french btw 03:47:23 viola is a musical instrument. 03:47:33 okay, i'll remember 03:53:03 * nooga goes to bed 03:58:02 goodnight 03:58:16 tokigun: and remember - WORK!!! >:D 03:58:21 03:58:38 ;) 03:58:47 -!- nooga has quit ("!"3bye"). 04:37:22 -!- calamari has joined. 05:08:51 -!- nooga has joined. 05:11:19 hi nooga 05:12:26 Why do people have to take a great idea and add so much fluff that it makes the great idea freakin' pointless? 05:36:50 hmmmm 05:37:09 i'm testing dynamic typing system. sometimes it makes memory leak.. :( 05:38:56 thats no good 05:38:59 what language are you using again? 05:39:10 C 05:41:37 Hmm, yeah.. that'll do it. Im not a big malloc guru 05:41:43 still love C.. just memory is... tricky 05:41:48 ;) 05:43:33 -!- Wildhalcyon has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 05:45:37 -!- WildHalcyon has joined. 05:45:50 gah 06:08:48 -!- calamari_ has joined. 06:13:57 ;p 06:14:10 my stupid dog has woken me up 06:29:49 -!- calamari has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 06:40:14 -!- WildHalcyon has quit ("Adios!"). 06:50:41 yeah, dynamic typing system is done. 06:50:48 http://tokigun.dnip.net/.local/work/Works/esolang/sadol/dyntype.c 06:51:01 it's time to implement SADOL itself... 07:05:10 -!- int-e has quit (Remote closed the connection). 07:05:10 -!- cmeme has quit ("Client terminated by server"). 07:05:35 -!- cmeme has joined. 07:26:39 -!- ES30NG has joined. 07:27:55 nooga here? 07:28:05 -!- ES30NG has changed nick to Gs30ng. 07:29:26 -!- puzzlet has joined. 07:38:19 hm 07:41:10 oh you're here 07:41:30 well i found a little typo on your SADOL page 07:41:43 possible 07:41:49 where? 07:41:49 Arhitmetical -> Arithmetical 07:42:48 oh 07:43:11 well top of 'A table of SADOL's built-in functions.' thing 07:43:39 i see 07:43:43 thanks 07:44:08 i think you've made pretty darn spiffy language 07:45:08 well thank you :) 07:45:37 and i also love your nickname. 'nooga', in Korean, my native language, means 'Who is' or 'Who does' 07:47:13 like, 'Who moved my cheese?' is 'Nooga nae cheese-reul omgyosulka?' in Korean 07:47:23 i didn't know :) 07:47:26 that's great 07:47:54 is nooga a Polish name? 07:49:38 no, it's random :) 07:49:53 random letters hehe 07:50:43 but in Polish 'noga' means 'a leg', and when you try to pronounce 'nooga' it sounds like 'noga' in Polish :) 07:50:50 that's a funny thing 07:52:35 leeg :D 07:58:16 Would anybody tell me who possess the domain http://www.esolangs.org? 07:59:33 i and tokigun are considering making an esolang wiki in Korean, and thought that the domain like ko.esolangs.org will be good 07:59:40 no 07:59:47 so i'd like to ask the owner to... 07:59:55 ...er, what's wrong, puzzlet? 07:59:56 isn't the wiki redirects to esoteric.voxelperfect.net? 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:00:06 instead of esolangs.org 08:00:19 hmm 08:00:27 try http://esolangs.org/wiki and you'll be redirected to another domain 08:00:33 puzzlet: redirection? i think it was URL rewriting 08:00:40 that probably means esolangs.org isn't encouraged 08:00:43 whatever it is 08:00:59 well it goes to http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Main_Page 08:01:09 when i try esolangs.org/wiki 08:01:22 Gs30ng: but http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page doesn't redirect 08:01:41 well it does 08:01:43 on my PC 08:02:05 i still can see the main page of the wiki, clearly 08:02:09 hmm 08:02:23 hmm 08:02:29 mOO 08:02:46 MMM 08:02:48 source code conversation 08:03:00 heh 08:03:05 how about hmm language? :) 08:03:06 Ook? 08:03:16 tokigun: that code looks good :) 08:03:25 i mean the sadol.c 08:03:38 puzzlet, does esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page not work on your machine? 08:03:53 it does work 08:03:58 i didn't check it before 08:03:59 nooga: :) 08:04:10 then i think there's no problem with using ko.esolangs.org 08:04:44 i'd like to ask the owner to give us that domain 08:04:49 but who's the owner? 08:05:05 how about making the wiki first? 08:05:29 puzzlet: but where? 08:05:41 well we can progress the things like in multi-threaded machine 08:06:04 like, i look for domain, tokigun look for account... 08:06:11 anyway 08:06:29 why are you guys planning making a wiki when there's no server to place it? 08:06:29 tokigun, didn't you say Daybreaker could support it? 08:06:42 Gs30ng: but i couldn't contact hime 08:06:44 him* 08:06:55 puzzlet: Where theres a will, theres a way. 08:07:01 hehe 08:08:48 since wikipedia is in multiple languages, esolang wiki could be, i think 08:09:38 tokigun: hmm language is good but there's no new concept or difference from moo language 08:10:35 yeah... i have some concept but i'm not sure it can be really used. 08:17:03 moo language, ook language... 08:17:11 bird of feather 08:17:50 right 08:18:00 still funny 08:18:27 well actual source code in it will be really funny 08:19:06 we can make up "WAV language" where rises and falls of sound waves are converted to brainfuck 08:19:23 a code performs 99 bottles of bear in hmm language 08:19:32 hmm.... hmm.. Hmm........ 08:19:37 -> 99b 08:20:04 it really makes me roll on the floor 08:20:31 oops typo 08:20:39 99 bottles of BEAR 08:20:51 ;> 08:21:18 oh my god! 99 grizzly bears! 08:23:47 ...in bottle, don't scare me at all. 08:24:29 where are you from puzzlet ? 08:24:52 that's something we wonder for several years 08:25:01 but still nobody knows 08:25:48 nooga, same from Gs30ng and tokigun 08:25:58 ah 08:26:03 as i supposed 08:26:09 Korea. weird country. 08:26:23 exotic 08:34:39 brb -> switching to windows 08:34:45 -!- nooga has quit ("Leaving"). 08:37:33 -!- nooga has joined. 08:43:16 -!- jix has joined. 08:48:26 grouped jix 08:51:55 i'm grouped... 08:51:58 moin Gs30ng 08:52:13 i'm moin... 09:07:36 nooga: hmm... i have a question about SADOL. 09:08:20 days ago you said "+2zblahblahblha.... is correct statement. right? 09:08:31 (z is integer variable) 09:08:32 yes 09:08:59 even if it's a float it should be rounded ;p 09:09:11 then how about ~X1"+2#_0blahblahblahblah.... ? 09:09:43 then interpreter cannot determine an end of function definition 09:09:58 because #_0 is not there. 09:10:23 right hehe 09:10:50 then we shouldn't do such things ;p 09:11:01 ;) 09:11:41 nooga: then the number or arguments or characters should be represented using 0..9 and , s? 09:11:48 undefined behavior is your friend 09:11:58 try to write ][-][-[][[>],[>]]]<[[>][[[] in brainfuck ;p 09:12:43 IT WORKS! 09:13:01 what it does? 09:13:17 not tje BF program 09:13:26 hoodwink'd works 09:13:54 http://redhanded.hobix.com/ << this is a ruby blog of a truly esoteric guy 09:14:36 there you can get all informations you need about hoodwink'd (2 blahhg posts) 09:18:22 hmmmmm 09:19:25 it's very hard... 09:20:15 determining an end of function definition seems very hard, in my opinion. 09:20:56 so fu*k thtat :> 09:21:00 that 09:21:44 haha it's just cooool 09:22:38 nooga: i just forgot whether function can be redefined or cannot. :S 09:23:08 hm? 09:23:44 hmm 09:24:01 already defined function can be redefined? 09:25:41 in my implementation it can 09:27:46 then: function X is defined with 2 arguments, function Y is defined and uses function X, function X is redefined with 3 arguments. how about this case? 09:28:12 it creates a mess 09:28:33 anybody understood him? 09:28:58 i 09:29:45 tokigun, you mean initially function X is defined to get 2 arguments? am i getting you? 09:29:53 Gs30ng: yes 09:30:19 hmh 09:30:25 as you know, my english is not good ;) 09:30:42 anyway... 10:06:40 tokigun: r u writing now? :P 10:07:24 nope 10:11:27 hmm 10:12:13 hmm 10:12:46 nooga: i think the number of arguments (as 3 in $3abc) should be a number, not variable. agree? 10:13:34 i agree with him 10:13:46 (function redefinition makes a mess but it doesn't affect function defintion. it just changes an end of function.) 10:13:50 variable number of arguments will cause a lot of problems 10:14:14 yep 10:15:40 mhm 10:18:44 bye 10:18:48 -!- nooga has quit. 10:25:14 -!- calamari_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 10:44:20 -!- ES30NG has joined. 11:01:23 -!- puzzlet has quit ("reboot"). 11:02:46 -!- Gs30ng has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 11:04:09 -!- puzzlet has joined. 11:04:17 -!- ES30NG has changed nick to Gs30ng. 11:46:31 -!- Keymaker has joined. 11:46:59 ha! bought pizza so i finally got a new rubberband 11:47:03 * Keymaker ties the left hand 11:48:11 LOOOOOOL 11:48:16 :) 11:48:29 L0RN 11:48:36 hrhr 11:50:15 nooga: definitely interesting looking programming book x) 11:50:21 much better than the ones with some animals 11:50:52 haha it's hard to type if you tie your right-hand-fingers together 11:51:12 yes 11:51:17 its really hard 11:51:37 that's why i tied my left.. 11:51:52 if you tourn your keyboard 180° its even harder! 11:52:46 wah 11:53:42 i didi that and i dont f ind ,H-üöh+ 11:53:42 well, i won't bother with that :) 11:54:06 ok 11:54:09 back to normal mode 12:10:57 jix, guess what 12:11:07 we're trying to make an esolang wiki in Korean 12:38:50 hmm.. no new mail.. no new mail.. no new mail.. all the three boxes fine. :p 12:43:42 Gs30ng: i can't read Korean 12:44:26 well since you are a non-english-native too, i thought this could inspire you in some way 12:44:48 like, esolang wiki in German? 12:48:51 hmm no... 12:53:39 :p 12:54:08 both of the german esoprogrammers would be happy :) 12:54:45 that means 100% 13:00:47 really? 13:04:43 almost 13:21:21 -!- Crest has joined. 13:21:49 moin Crest 13:43:14 well. bye. 13:43:18 -!- Keymaker has quit ("I've seen this dj vu before.."). 13:43:19 cya 13:48:49 -!- Crest has quit ("Leaving"). 14:16:58 -!- ChanServ has quit (Shutting Down). 14:19:57 -!- zauberzebra has joined. 14:22:11 -!- ChanServ has joined. 14:22:11 -!- irc.freenode.net has set channel mode: +o ChanServ. 14:31:40 -!- zauberzebra has quit ("Download Gaim: http://gaim.sourceforge.net/"). 15:09:19 -!- nx5_off has left (?). 15:30:21 that's not a GLOBAL notice 15:30:28 because it's not afternoon here 15:30:35 it's almost midnight 15:34:00 say semiglobal 15:36:12 -!- CXI has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 15:36:36 -!- CXI has joined. 16:08:03 -!- WildHalcyon has joined. 16:18:37 -!- puzzlet has quit (Client Quit). 16:21:32 -!- puzzlet has joined. 17:05:40 -!- BodyTag has joined. 17:24:51 -!- BodyTag has quit. 17:32:50 gotta sleep 17:32:54 -!- Gs30ng has quit ("sleep"). 19:18:23 -!- int-e has joined. 19:54:57 -!- calamari has joined. 19:55:00 hi 19:57:25 -!- int-e has left (?). 20:01:10 hmm.. did the wiki just go down? 20:06:13 there.. working again.. weird 20:13:22 bbl 20:13:24 -!- calamari has quit ("Leaving"). 20:26:04 -!- andreou has joined. 20:36:02 -!- andreou has quit ("ka-pow"). 20:39:05 -!- Aardwolf has joined. 20:40:11 Hey, is a language still considered esoteric if it contains high level commands like quickSort, getDeterminant, matrix multiplication, etc...? :) 20:44:38 -!- {^Raven^} has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 20:45:29 -!- {^Raven^} has joined. 21:04:30 Aardwolf: C was esoteric until it started being used. "Esoteric" basically means that it's only interesting to a select group. If it makes it big, sorry, but it loses its esoteric status ;). Otherwise, you're safe. 21:05:54 Ok, I'm safe :D 21:06:47 It would be especially interesting if it /only/ provided high-level functions and required that operations such as addition and subtraction be carried out by taking advantage of side effects :P 21:08:23 :) 21:08:55 Muahahahaha 21:09:48 It would be cool if someone made a language harder than malbolge 21:12:51 H..ard..er hmmm... 21:13:38 I shall possibly endeavour to do so. Although Malbolge wasn't even necessarily designed to be TC, it just happened by chance 21:36:05 -!- calamari has joined. 21:39:54 hi 21:40:16 howdy 21:41:55 Oh, btw, here's a language harder than malbolge: Every block separated by ; has to have the md5sum from a table of instructions + the instruction number. 21:42:06 The md5sums map to BF commands, for example. 21:43:19 <{^Raven^}> hi calamari 21:43:58 hi WildHalcyon, raven 21:44:05 hi everybody 21:44:09 Yeah, thats fairly evil 21:44:22 raven: doesn't look like I'll be entering this year.. lost motivation as I'd feared 21:45:57 <{^Raven^}> calamari: not sure i will be either but I'm gonna try - only restarted work on game today 21:46:08 hehe 21:46:51 entering what? 21:47:10 "2k" (10k) adventure game competition 21:47:25 hmm, ok 21:47:52 the idea is to build a text adventure in very little code 21:48:22 <{^Raven^}> using maximum of 2899 bytes code 8192 bytes data 21:48:41 in an esolang, or any lang at all? 21:48:49 any lang, within reason 21:48:53 ok 21:49:13 out of curiousity, what would be considered unreasonable? 21:49:53 * {^Raven^} just finished a 120 byte CCC1 decompressor 21:50:31 <{^Raven^}> a language that requires a huge runtime interpreter that you wrote especially for the purpose would be out 21:50:33 lang for a system that isn't emulated / unavailable (can't test the game).. or using some special language you made that helps you cheat and get the size down.. probably cheating. 21:50:42 :) 21:51:03 what kinds of compression ratios you get with CCC1? 21:51:36 Hmm, good point 21:51:38 Noting a-z and a few punctuations gives 8:5 compression for very little 21:51:57 or would that be 5:8 :) 21:52:10 from 8 bits to 5 bits .. hehe 21:54:04 <{^Raven^}> about 26% compression which gives me about an extra 2.8K of data 21:54:55 what if the difference between code and data isn't clear? 21:54:55 <{^Raven^}> I might add dictionary compression aswell to give me a better compression ratio 21:55:21 aardwolf: then you don't mention it and nobody will know ;) 21:55:51 * {^Raven^} snickers 21:56:14 but it may hurt you as far as descriptions goes.. need space for text 21:57:12 <{^Raven^}> but may add in functionality if you are running out of code space 21:57:43 try programming an intelligent text-adventure-creator that will create it's own endless adventure :D 21:58:03 already have that.. called Moria :) 21:58:40 nethack, larn, rogue, adom, etc 21:58:55 <{^Raven^}> or !Billion which has a game a night until the 27,399th centuary 21:59:35 Im working on a good angband variant for my language... we'll see if it works 22:00:09 I can't promise to keep it under 10K though 22:00:20 the thing that always seemed lacking in roguelikes was multiplayer 22:01:04 there have been some.. didn't really encourage cooperation though 22:01:09 There have been a couple 22:01:14 aren't they called MUDs? 22:01:26 muds are different though 22:01:38 although they are closer to a text adventure :) 22:02:24 I made a graphical interface for a mud once.. almost got banned for "cheating" 22:02:30 MUDs are very much like text adventure games. 22:02:47 Whereas rogues are predecessors to 2D RPGs. 22:02:57 (One could theorize) 22:03:05 it was cool too, because you could type a town name and it'd figure out the shortest nnumber of moves to get you there 22:03:33 probably why they didn't like it.. that and the filled out map 22:03:55 Most MUDs are fine with mapping nowadays *shrugs* 22:04:01 who is talking about compression? 22:04:10 <{^Raven^}> jix: i was 22:04:30 a simple one is mtf with rice 22:04:42 GregorR: btw.. see the log from a few days ago for some IRP ;) 22:04:42 or rice alike 22:04:52 w00t 22:05:19 mtf + huffman is even better 22:05:22 <{^Raven^}> jix: can the decompression routine be written in under 320 bytes of code? 22:05:28 {^Raven^}: depends 22:05:43 on language / computer 22:06:15 <{^Raven^}> jix: my ccc1 decoder is 120 bytes and my dictonary decoder is 240ish 22:06:25 {^Raven^}: what is ccc1? 22:06:38 i know many compressions but never saw ccc1 22:06:45 calamari: Can you be more specific? 22:07:06 gregor: nope.. let me search the last few days for IRP 22:07:22 {^Raven^}: what language do you use? 22:07:29 <{^Raven^}> jix: common character compression gives about 8:5 on lowercase only text and 4:3 on mixed text 22:07:51 <{^Raven^}> I am using BBC BASIC version 5 22:08:31 for what platforms there is an interpreter for it? 22:08:52 raven: ahh so what I mentioned was ccc1? hehe cool 22:09:17 <{^Raven^}> RISC OS, BBC Micro (Addon), Windows and on Unix under Wine 22:09:28 uh.. 22:09:34 i have none of them 22:09:36 Aha, found your response :) 22:10:00 5 bits = 32 characters - 26 (a-z), leaves 6 for punctuation. Can do auto first letter capitalization of sentences 22:10:13 what day was it? I didn't find it :) 22:10:16 -!- kipple has joined. 22:10:41 yesterday? lol...... 22:10:48 <{^Raven^}> calamari: Mine will do anything in ASCII range 00-126 but is optimised for lowercase 22:11:02 raven: oh, neat 22:11:06 i'm going to implement a mtf+rice-like compression in ruby 22:11:15 <{^Raven^}> calamari: 10 most common characters are encoded in 4 bits 22:11:20 Hey, I just realized something that IRP is especially good for! 22:11:47 Someone please write "This sentence is grammatically correct." in Español. 22:12:06 (/me thinks: the world's best online translator!) 22:12:42 or worlds worst.. 22:12:42 i can't speak/write Español 22:12:50 Hehe 22:12:58 Nondeterministic :P 22:14:40 eso frase es correcto gramaticalmente 22:14:52 I think 22:15:18 looks good to me 22:15:34 Web translation was never easier ( ... for me :P) 22:16:28 (100% non error-free translation to korean:) 이 형은 문법적으로 정확하다. please tell me what i wrote! 22:16:48 babelfish says: "that phrase is correct grammarly" 22:17:05 (for WildHalcyon ;) 22:17:27 hmm... 22:17:43 jix: you wrote: i009D' i00980095i.. etc ;) 22:17:55 babelfish is wrong on that point 22:18:02 WildHalcyon: yeah I thin kyou got it right 22:18:32 I may not speak GREAT spanish, but I know how to use my dictionary right ;-) 22:18:43 wonder why it said "that" instead of "this" 22:19:17 hehe 22:19:20 because I got that part wrong... 22:19:28 (didnt look up "this" in my dictionary) 22:19:46 I'm beginning to lose confidence in this translation program :P 22:19:54 esto 22:20:01 or esta 22:20:04 It should be esta frase es correcto gramaticalmente 22:20:12 (frase is feminine) 22:21:02 hmm.. got more wrong than I thought 22:21:17 darn you IRP 22:21:22 Someone please tell me if my program halts.. (just kidding) ;) 22:21:31 AHAHAAH 22:21:31 My font is so screwed up, I see squares with 4 small hex numbers in each square, instead of korean characters 22:21:36 <{^Raven^}> IRP? 22:21:55 yeah 22:22:04 -!- doferna has joined. 22:22:15 {^Raven^}: http://www.esolangs.org/wiki/IRP 22:22:48 -!- doferna has left (?). 22:22:54 {^Raven^}: is there any chance i can run your programs on my mac ppc computer? 22:22:59 I scared him/her away :P 22:23:25 * {^Raven^} FOCROFLMAO 22:24:48 <{^Raven^}> jix: probably not unless you have Windows or RISC OS emulator available 22:25:32 Or you could compile from source. Oh, wait, NEVER MIND. 22:25:51 {^Raven^}: hmm.. 22:26:05 RISC OS runs on arm based computer right? 22:26:08 /away 22:26:56 <{^Raven^}> jix: yeah. there's lots of emulators available Red Squirrel is a good free (Windows) one 22:27:10 I made a brainfuck clone called brainloller, it's exactly the same as brainfuck except that the commands are read from pixels of a png file and you can make 90 degree turns so that you can give the code certain shapes in the image. It's possible to put brainfuck code hidden in a picture. Is it worth publishing this? 22:27:44 aardwolf: sure :) 22:27:52 I think its got merit 22:28:51 aardwolf: one thing I managed to do with Microsoft BMP bitmaps is embed asm code into the palette that ran the interpreter. Maybe you can do something similar so it can be an executable :) 22:29:02 the->an 22:29:49 I'd try it with JPg, but I never really studied the format 22:31:48 jpg is lossy, impossible to put code in that 22:31:52 I uploaded it here: http://www.student.kuleuven.ac.be/~m0216922/brainloller/ 22:31:59 the explanation is in main.cpp 22:32:40 haha a BMP executable, that sounds ownage :) 22:34:47 If you really, /really/ understood the compression format, you could put code in a lossy image format. 22:35:01 true dat :D 22:35:24 Or you could make gigantic 100% quality jpegs 8-D 22:36:21 Well now you can compress your brainfuck code in pngs :D 22:39:12 Aardwolf: you can put code in jpeg 22:39:24 by modifying the lower bit of the encoded frequencies 22:39:35 what's wrong with png tho? 22:39:49 nothing 22:39:52 png is cool 22:41:25 I'll port some brainfuck program to brainloller so that there's at least an example 22:41:26 I'm off to KolourPaint 22:46:09 * GregorR votes for Mandelbrot. 22:46:21 mandelbrot! 22:46:50 i know someone who knows someone who knows mandelbrot! 22:46:55 Good because it's using graphics to represent text code that uses text to represent graphical output :) 22:47:02 That seems unlikely :P 22:47:24 GregorR: what? 22:48:10 That you know someone who knows someone who knows Mandelbrot. 22:48:16 Though I guess he is not a deity, and does exist :P 22:50:01 GregorR: it's true! 22:50:14 I'll believe you *shrugs* 22:51:07 gn8 22:51:12 Bye. 22:51:22 the one who knows mandelbrot is heinz-otto peitgen 22:51:32 he works at the university of bremen 22:52:06 -!- jix has quit ("Bitte waehlen Sie eine Beerdigungnachricht"). 23:19:27 Fixed a bug and made hello.png for brainloller 23:24:21 You might be able to do it with lossless wavelet compression. Harr wavelets would be the easiest... 23:26:38 For my senior design project as a EE major, I made an audio watermarking program. I lost the code, but its not hard to redevelop. You could turn that to a bf encoder as well. 23:26:39 :p 23:27:07 it can be hidden in anything :D 23:27:35 Well, brainloller couldn't be (90 degree turns are.. tricky), but bf could. 23:28:52 the 90 degree turns can safely be ignored when converting from brainloller back to 1D, all they do is tell where the next code will be, they don't change anything to the behaviour 23:29:26 Okay, well that doesn't change much at least 23:36:13 hmm. the wiki seems to be down 23:37:50 -!- calamari has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 2005-08-25: 00:00:21 -!- heatsink has joined. 00:32:57 -!- calamari has joined. 00:44:12 -!- int-e has joined. 00:50:43 -!- Aardwolf has quit ("Leaving"). 01:09:35 -!- calamari_ has joined. 01:09:36 -!- calamari has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 01:16:10 -!- int-e has quit (Remote closed the connection). 01:16:20 -!- int-e has joined. 01:21:42 -!- calamari_ has quit ("Leaving"). 01:58:30 -!- WildHalcyon_ has joined. 02:08:10 -!- WildHalcyon__ has joined. 02:16:11 -!- WildHalcyon has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 02:26:13 -!- WildHalcyon_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 02:38:34 -!- heatsink has quit ("Leaving"). 02:44:32 -!- WildHalcyon__ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 03:10:19 -!- Wrrrtbt has joined. 03:10:36 -!- int-e has quit (Nick collision from services.). 03:10:42 -!- Wrrrtbt has changed nick to int-e. 03:22:28 -!- Wrrrtbt has joined. 03:22:38 -!- int-e has quit (Nick collision from services.). 03:22:40 -!- Wrrrtbt has changed nick to int-e. 03:22:56 *sigh* 03:41:10 -!- Wrrrtbt has joined. 03:41:19 -!- int-e has quit (Nick collision from services.). 03:41:22 -!- Wrrrtbt has changed nick to int-e. 03:42:29 -!- calamari has joined. 04:03:56 -!- calamari_ has joined. 04:18:19 -!- calamari has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 04:20:46 back 04:20:50 babelfish... oops 04:22:48 GregorR: "이 문장은 문법적으로 올바르다." is Korean translation of "This sentence is grammatically correct.", maybe ;) 04:28:42 BTW, IDIA (my mud engine) is in subversion now 8-D 04:32:50 subversion.... 04:33:05 http://subversion.tigris.org/ 04:33:09 i've used cvs for years but i'm not familiar to subversion ;) 04:33:14 s/to/with/ 04:33:29 It has a few features nicer than CVS, and at least one that I think is worse *shrugs* 04:35:14 what's the worse one *is curious*? 04:35:42 * int-e is a bit unhappy that it doesn't update the local revision number on commit ... 04:36:09 * int-e is very happy about global revision numbers though 04:39:10 I don't like how subversion handles branches. 04:39:24 hmm. I've yet to try that. 04:39:26 I'm not sure whether I'm just not used to it or I honestly dislike it, however. 04:40:13 Anyway, if anybody wants to give it a whirl, 'svn co svn://idia.codu.org/IDIA/idia/trunk idia' 04:40:39 (Managed to mooch SVN hosting from a friend :P) 04:41:40 I think I'm a too big fan of lpmuds to try that 04:43:00 IDIA is more Diku/MERC/ROM/SMAUG/Circle monolithic style, not "here's an interpreter have fun" style. 04:43:32 Yes, I saw that 04:44:50 I like a central event queue though (I've thought of that before but never coded it. It's strange noone seems to do that.) 04:45:28 * calamari_ is installing windows 2003 again :( 04:46:42 but.. at least itis being done in qemu so I can still use my computer :) 04:47:01 for example I've yet to find a mud interpreter (lpmud similar) that has priority queues as a builtin datatype. 04:47:10 it seems to be so obvious. 04:47:11 int-e: I really can't stand the heartbeat style. 04:47:29 It's better on SMAUG with a .25 second heartbeat, but still awful :P 04:47:46 ok, the backend cycle structure is quite limiting indeed 04:48:22 Anyway, I don't care if anybody cares about IDIA, I'm just writing it for kicks *shrugs* 04:48:38 of course 04:52:57 I know you're talking about muds.. but it'd be really cool to have a multiplayer roguelike where changes to the world were remembered, talking was limited by distance (too far away, can't hear), there were different languages for different races (even if random chars).. wish I could get motivated to stick to one project, lol 05:02:31 -!- int-e has quit ("Bye!"). 05:19:19 -!- CXI has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 05:19:38 -!- ES30NG has joined. 05:19:43 -!- ES30NG has changed nick to Gs30ng. 05:19:43 -!- CXI has joined. 05:36:42 -!- kipple has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 05:45:55 -!- Gs30ng has quit ("SKYIRC Ver Pro http://cafe.naver.com/skyirc.cafe #skyirc"). 06:58:56 -!- nooga has joined. 06:59:03 hi 07:02:52 hi nooga 07:18:59 I just instantiated my first object in IDIA 8-D 07:19:09 (That is, within the game itself, not in the code) 07:19:31 oh 07:26:18 -!- CXI has quit (Connection reset by peer). 07:26:55 -!- CXI has joined. 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:05:36 -!- nooga has quit. 08:11:49 -!- nooga has joined. 08:24:02 -!- calamari_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 09:29:30 SADOL .NET ;> 10:31:35 -!- jix has joined. 10:31:50 moiN! 10:31:55 hi 10:58:22 {^Raven^}: i have a risc os running on a emulator 11:14:29 -!- nooga has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 11:27:23 -!- CXI has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 11:27:46 -!- CXI has joined. 11:49:28 -!- int-e has joined. 13:48:20 -!- Aardwolf has joined. 13:48:35 Check out the description of my new language in the works: http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Deltaplex 14:02:21 -!- kipple has joined. 14:24:04 -!- Gs30ng has joined. 14:25:49 i have something 14:25:58 well, ok, here's the thing: 14:26:23 is there any symbol or emblem for esolang? 14:27:26 i mean, like, a penguin represents Linux, and an apple represents Mac or stuffs from Apple, Inc. 14:28:10 i think it'll be great if we got a symbol of esolang 14:30:03 I think you're right 14:31:05 thanks. we can have some time of discussion for this. 14:31:28 http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/w/skins/common/images/wiki.png 14:31:50 hmm. that's default logo of MediaWiki 14:32:48 i've been thinking about the symbol thing but couldn't get any good idea 14:33:18 what kind of symbol could represent programming languages 14:33:53 there are too many sort of esolang, and it seems the one symbol including them all can't exist 14:34:42 Aardwolf is right. we don't even have any symbol for *programming language* 14:34:51 try the set of all sets ... 14:34:58 * int-e disappears in a puff of logic 14:35:00 something abstract 14:35:33 maybe, like linux or apple, something that is not related to programming languages could be 14:35:48 linux is no penguin-like 14:36:05 you mean, a sort of mascot? 14:36:10 yeap 14:37:00 lie\esoteric animals 14:37:11 like esoteric animals or foods... 14:37:43 maybe some geometric figures.. 14:38:04 http://home.hccnet.nl/van.lierop/parahulp/foto/krachtdieren/gordeldier.jpg 14:38:05 or something represents the canoncial esolangs like bf 14:38:13 that's a weird animal, but I don't know it's name in english 14:38:48 there has been some discussions here about a logo before 14:39:07 I suggested the Dodo bird as a mascot :) 14:40:01 that's esoteric 14:40:37 Now that some people are active here, please check out my new language in the world: http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Deltaplex 14:40:51 *works, not world 14:41:20 I also made some logo suggestions for the wiki based on the standard mediawiki logo and brainfuck: http://rune.krokodille.com/lang/logos.html 14:41:24 but, since there's no dodo now, can sound like "All the esolang is dead as a dodo!!!" 14:41:55 Yeah, it's not easy to find an animal that fits, though... 14:42:58 kipple, your bf logo idea is, just, great 14:43:42 i haven't thought that mediawiki logo could be like bf source code 14:44:37 Aardwolf: looks interesting. we need more high-level esolangs :) 14:44:59 My hope is that it'll be possible to make a 3D shooter in it ;) 14:45:16 haha. that would be great 14:47:01 -!- WildHalcyon has joined. 14:48:01 i love the idea of kipple. one vote for it here 14:49:08 but maybe some guys think it is not fit for a symbol of esolang... it represents only bf and there's a lot of non-bf-like esolangs 14:49:40 It was meant as a symbol for the Wiki, not for esolangs in general 14:51:06 a homage for Alan Turing could work 14:54:35 he is often considered the father of modern computer science but also did a critical part for esolang world 14:54:49 i think it should be a thing that no other use as logo 14:54:52 no animal 14:54:55 did he do anything esoteric? 14:54:56 no fruit 14:55:02 no animal? 14:55:08 erm.. why? 14:55:15 using an animal is not esoteric 14:55:24 ...persuasive 14:55:24 too many things have animals as logo 14:55:41 There were some attempts of making a Piet program/logo earlier, but I don't remember how it went 14:55:45 but not an ESOTERIC animal... 14:56:01 but what if we use http://home.hccnet.nl/van.lierop/parahulp/foto/krachtdieren/gordeldier.jpg 14:56:11 that seems esoteric enough 14:56:19 Im not convinced that the armadillo is really that esoteric... 14:56:29 we could make up an animal out of many different animals 14:56:44 that is called armadillo. i didn't know that 14:57:01 making a virtual animal is also good idea 14:57:01 the most esoteric parts of the most esoteric animals from the most esoteric.. uhm.. 14:57:42 Maybe an amusing looking fish? 14:57:51 well i think that kind of animal would scare people 14:58:00 a fish with butterfly wings and.... 14:58:31 human face.. 14:58:34 a bird head 14:58:42 then human legs 14:58:53 nothing human imo 14:59:07 why? 14:59:14 all the esolangs are made by human 14:59:31 yes but they look like they were made by aliens ^^ 15:00:09 Aliens familiar with ascii... well.. sort of familiar with it I guess 15:00:24 you said "most esoteric animals"... then butterfly wings or bird head is disqualified 15:00:31 hm yes 15:00:35 let's name some more esoteric animals 15:00:51 aliens who have heard of ascii and thought it was a form of interpretive dance 15:01:03 like, Halcyon? :) 15:01:45 ...wait. then the logo should be really complicated 15:01:56 we can't make a small size of logo then 15:01:57 Im not sure that my namesake quite envisions the esoteric mantra 15:02:01 the logo should be generated by a computer program! 15:02:13 that should!!! 15:02:18 yeah, by MS Paint :D 15:02:31 no MS Paint generates no images 15:02:36 Glitch image could work 15:02:43 NS Paint's is a tool that allows humans to generate images 15:03:27 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Glitch_cityscrnshot.jpg 15:03:32 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glitch 15:04:12 but esolangs arent really glitches, are they? 15:04:22 We dont want folks saying "Haha.. those esolangs.. something's WRONG with them" 15:04:23 their code seems. 15:04:26 hehe. some might argue they are ;) 15:04:52 well most of esolang codes are seem glitches 15:05:15 the logo could just be a bunch of random ASCII noise 15:05:39 that would represent quite a lot of esolangs ;) 15:05:46 wait. i think the logo should be static 15:06:06 like, everybody can make different version of esolang logo, is not good 15:06:22 sure. I didn't mean it should be dynamic 15:06:42 but random ASCII noise seems like that 15:07:22 you don't have to generate it more than once 15:07:42 use a really complex generating function 15:07:52 the logo should be easy to recognize, like, whenever we see that we can tell there's something related to esolang 15:08:04 random ASCII noises are not. 15:08:10 hehe 15:11:59 i'd rather vote for kipple's wiki bf logo. 15:12:01 http://rune.krokodille.com/lang/logos.html 15:13:46 kipple, are those logos all public domain? 15:16:02 the one with the flower possibly has some restrictions as I took it from the mediawiki logo 15:16:20 the other ones are PD 15:16:53 well i think mediawiki things are all PD... i'll look up for it 15:17:03 I suspect it is GPL 15:18:32 -!- CXI has changed nick to cXI. 15:18:35 -!- cXI has changed nick to CXI. 15:21:49 maybe we should make a page in the wiki about the logo issue, so more people would contribute 15:22:07 agree 16:09:21 http://img214.imageshack.us/img214/3286/nqr1kx.png sort of random but if you see it you can recognize it 16:09:58 good, but too hard to simplify 16:11:44 its HSL[(y^2+x^3)/20000,Cos[x*y/300]/3+0.5,Sec[x*y/10]/3+0.5] for x,y = 0..127 16:35:15 i'm trying to draw a picture which is literally "Brainfuck", but i have no idea to express the word f*ck. 16:36:16 i have a not-well-suited idea *g* 16:36:29 but brainfuck isn't the only esolang 16:36:35 no i mean 16:36:41 i'm against a brainfuck specific logo 16:36:50 most of esolangs f*ck our brain 16:37:22 that's why i'm trying to make that sort of logo 18:11:46 -!- nooga has joined. 18:11:52 yo 18:12:02 oy 18:12:05 kipple: i like the kipple language 18:12:16 thanks :) 18:12:21 nice to hear 18:12:27 :] 18:13:37 brb 18:13:39 -!- nooga has quit (Client Quit). 18:25:30 -!- int-e has left (?). 18:26:37 -!- nooga has joined. 18:26:48 .back 18:27:06 welback 18:27:31 tokigun: say that you've finished it 18:27:39 pleeez? 18:27:54 well he is in bed now 18:28:59 but he'll read the log ;p 18:29:16 hmm that's right 18:29:43 and you mean his sadol interpreter, right? 18:30:25 yea 18:30:38 now im reading about mono and .NET stuff 18:30:50 i plan to make a SADOL compiler 18:30:55 SADOL .NET :> 18:31:28 what's this sadol language? there is no article in the wiki 18:31:36 yeap 18:31:40 you should check the log 18:31:54 is there a spec or something somewhere? 18:31:58 yeap 18:32:08 nooga will give you it 18:32:52 kipple: http://nooga.int.pl/sadol/ but be warned, my english sucks ;p 18:33:00 found some links in the logs. but they don't work 18:33:19 that link doesn't work for me :( 18:33:26 nooga, i think the language is not so sadistic 18:33:58 langs like Malbolge is sadistic, but your lang isn't 18:34:03 try to write a bigger program ;p 18:34:13 you can get lost any time 18:34:24 can't connect to server http://nooga.int.pl 18:34:27 lol -> http://www.hackles.org/cgi-bin/archives.pl?request=7 18:34:41 but you can do structured programming in it 18:34:58 in Malbolge, it took several years to make first program in it 18:35:03 :> 18:35:05 now it suddenly works... strange 18:35:21 kipple: this is private server 18:35:47 compared to some langs that 'designed to be hard', sadol isn't sadistic, actually 18:35:48 so it may be 18:36:00 then think about another name ;p 18:36:13 because i dont know ;p 18:36:24 LOL: http://nooga.int.pl/sadol/sadol.jpg 18:37:24 Gs30ng: I saw in the logs that you're looking for the owner of the esolangs.org doman 18:37:29 did you find out? 18:37:30 :> 18:37:41 many ppl like this image 18:37:51 that image is why we are paying so much attention on sadol 18:37:57 kipple: no 18:37:58 :D 18:38:01 not yet 18:38:28 I can't remember who it is, but it is someone here on #esoteric 18:41:53 we've just reserved that problem, because we don't have any idea about it's necessity. maybe we can just give up to make Korean esolang wiki 18:42:45 really few people know about esolang here 18:42:57 that goes for everywhere 18:43:12 how many people know about esoteric languages in general? :p 18:43:56 i mean, like, there's about 48 million people in Korea, but like 10~20 people have heard about esolang 18:44:26 in poland 18:44:36 maybe I'm the only one from belgium :D 18:44:44 there are 36 mln people 18:45:01 and maybe 2000 heard about an esolang 18:45:20 and i think something abt 500 ppl know one 18:47:13 in Korea, that 10~20 people are aware of esolang because of Aheui, http://puzzlet.org/puzzlet/%EC%95%84%ED%9D%AC~Specification 18:47:50 I have no idea how many people in belgium know, how the heck do you count that 18:48:00 you don't ;) 18:50:40 puzzlet there, the author of Aheui, is the most contributor of korean esolang society 18:51:37 i guess if we just pick out the ones who know Aheui out of korea, there will be no esolang-aware guy left 18:52:22 and that's why i and tokigun thought korean esolang wiki is currently not needed 18:53:05 haha -> http://www.hackles.org/cgi-bin/archives.pl?request=36 18:53:11 I know there is at least one other norwegian guy (which I've actually met in a totally unrelated setting) but probably not many more 18:55:17 I've added a short stub article on SADOL in the wiki, but it could use some more meat... 18:55:21 i tell everyone i know about them 18:55:54 and in my city there are at least 2 that know brainfuck (including me) 18:56:00 /away 18:56:13 with know i mean can program in it 18:56:36 well i can't program in bf 18:56:46 i don't actually understand [ and ] 18:57:42 kipple: thanks 18:57:49 it's a while loop that repeats as long as the value at the current memory address is not zero 18:59:22 then, in a code like [++++], is ++++ not executed? 19:01:00 or should i do +[++++] if i want to skip ++++? 19:03:03 if you do +[++++] the ++++ will be executed unless the current memory location is -1 at the start 19:03:18 then [++++] skips ++++? 19:03:26 yes 19:03:59 provided that current memory cell is 0 (which they all are when the program starts) 19:07:39 but assuming you're on the edge of the tape, you could always go: >+++[<++++>] 19:07:50 that multiplies 3 x 4! 19:08:41 ok... if the current cell is zero and i meet [, then i jump to next ], right? 19:08:52 yes 19:09:04 then is ] executed? 19:09:11 no 19:09:13 ok 19:09:46 and if the current cell is non-zero and you meet ] you jump back to the corresponding [ 19:10:22 so, whenever the current cell is zero and i meat [ or ], i jump. right? 19:10:25 hmm. easy. 19:11:41 oops, crazy typo 19:11:49 anyway 19:14:50 -!- nooga has left (?). 19:20:44 no, you jump on ] when the current cell is NOT zero 19:21:28 uhm... didn't you say [++++] skips ++++? 19:21:49 yes. because the first [ jumps past the ] 19:23:01 i don't really understand what 'jump on' means 19:23:30 you mean if the currrent cell is non-zero and i meet ] then i jump? 19:23:42 or if the currrent cell is non-zero and i meet [ then i jump? 19:24:55 [++++] in pseudo code: 19:24:56 while (current cell is not 0) add 4 to current cell 19:26:25 aha 19:30:48 thanks, kipple 19:31:01 your welcome. 19:41:35 Hmm, Ive been link hopping from that comic and came across a photo taken by Wouter. Cool! 19:43:09 I think if anyone should be the esolang mascot, it should be Wouter. In an armadillo costume. 19:43:38 Wouter the author of FALSE? 19:43:46 i should look up wikipedia 19:44:05 yeah 19:44:18 He's a pioneer. Like.. Columbus. 19:45:51 hmm. wikipedia says FALSE inspired the esolang stuffs 19:46:04 it was the main inspiration for brainfuck I think 19:47:40 and Befunge 19:47:55 anyone ever saw this? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Votes_for_deletion/Esoteric_programming_language_related/Detail 19:49:44 yes. it was voted down 19:50:07 it's one of the reasons we started our own wiki though 19:50:24 I'm glad it got started, much more freedom than on wikipedia 19:50:40 becuase I kind of agree that most of the esolangs does not belong in the wikipedia 19:50:52 i should go bed now 19:51:28 well, I'm probably not going to add my next languages to wikipedia anymore, since there's esolang now anyway 19:51:52 here it's 4 o'clock in the morning 19:51:58 20:56 here 19:52:09 same here 19:52:10 i'm really late 19:52:11 bye 19:52:17 cya 19:52:25 -!- Gs30ng has quit ("Bye"). 19:52:31 nighttime is hacking time ;) 19:52:36 ya :) 19:53:01 lol 19:53:23 I'm currently working from home as a programmer, and have adopted the night shift 19:53:39 nice, a job from home :) 19:54:12 the problem with working from home is that there are so many distractions.... 19:54:50 distractions for me are patiance, mine sweeper and the internet :s 19:57:59 IRC is of course a common distraction 19:59:04 Gah, that vote for deletion page is driving me up the wall. One guy's entire vote consists of finding all google pages on a language that dont mention wikipedia and thefreedictionary 19:59:37 yeah I know, and he searched with quotes 19:59:43 with programming language behind the name 20:00:21 irritating, isnt it? 20:00:51 He didnt even care about historical significance in a more obscure light. Like lineage, uniqueness, etc. 20:16:12 Ah well. The languages are esoteric. Dealing with the lack of knowledge is bound to bring some problems. 20:18:17 Someone put the TAXI programming language on wikipedia, and it got deleted because someone thought it was advertising for a game 20:18:39 lol 20:19:13 I didnt think it was a great language, so I get to laugh a lot at that. 20:21:04 I guess my lack of enthusiasm was due to the fact that I thought the language had a more mathematical construct.. like being based on Taxicab Geometry 20:21:37 lol 20:26:47 AEGH!!!! so many compiler errors 20:31:04 esolangs and wikipedia just don't mix. 20:32:20 there are weirder things that that on wikipedia 20:32:37 just today I encountered an article devoted to Glich City, which is a bug in some pokemon game 20:33:23 I like that the wikipedia contains that kind of info 20:33:23 :P 20:33:58 Hello world program in esoteric languages <--- do we have something like this in esolang? 20:34:09 no. 20:34:18 it would be nice 20:34:27 feel free to make it so 20:34:32 allright 20:34:50 if you make a page, contributions will probably come 20:35:01 I'll add a few and let the rest come :) 20:37:46 Aardwolf: weird, perhaps, but in a game series that has sold something like 100 million copies... 20:38:37 yeah 20:39:58 the thing that gets me the most about wikipedia is the inherent bias towards pop/internet culture 20:42:57 http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Hello_world_program_in_esoteric_languages <--- is it possible to get the code snippets in colored tables, like here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hello_world_program_in_esoteric_languages 20:49:45 I fail to see the colored code? 20:50:00 hehehe... I see wierd though. I never knew someone wrote Hello World in Wierd. 20:50:30 I don't get the colored tables either.... 20:51:16 I mean the grey box in which the code is drawn, as opposed to a white background 20:51:39 but your page looks exactly the same as the wikipedia page 20:52:11 weird, I see a grey box behind the code snippets in wikipedia, a grey box with a blue dotted border around it 20:52:17 oh well it's not that important 20:52:27 yes. And I see the same in the esolang wiki 20:52:56 perhaps because you are not using the same skin on esolang as me (I use the MonoBook skin) 20:53:04 probably 20:53:09 I see it against a white background 20:53:19 yeah, that's it 20:53:22 Oh, no. I see the grey box 20:53:24 change skin to monobook. 20:53:31 the default one looks awful IMHO 20:53:52 yup that looks a lot better 20:53:57 it should become the default 20:54:09 Yeah, we should petition Graue to change it 20:54:33 Graue: If you read the logs, I vote for changing the default skin to MonoBook 20:55:46 Add my vote to the list 20:57:23 -!- nooga has joined. 20:57:32 .back 20:58:11 .wb 21:00:04 hey, guys -> http://www.regedit.risp.pl/BDSM/ 21:00:16 BDSM -> Badly Developed SADOL Machine 21:00:24 a Complete implementation 21:04:26 nice. 21:04:42 haha 21:04:56 my friend wrote it in a secret 21:05:44 That bugger! 21:06:46 what bugger? 21:07:38 g2g, this interpreter is complete 21:07:46 you may play if you want 21:07:48 bye 21:07:51 -!- nooga has quit. 21:07:52 bye 21:17:58 Im out of here as well. I have an exciting 6 hours of the worst job ever to look forward to 21:18:01 bah. 21:18:29 worst job ever? now I'm curious 21:50:49 -!- jix has quit ("Bitte waehlen Sie eine Beerdigungnachricht"). 21:53:59 -!- calamari has joined. 21:54:49 hi 21:54:57 hey 21:55:18 -!- calamari has quit (Remote closed the connection). 21:56:17 -!- calamari has joined. 21:56:41 hi again 21:57:30 it's nice to know that reading the log can cause Mozilla to crash my entire login session :) 21:59:27 Graue: also a vote for Monobook as the default 22:15:03 bbk 22:15:06 l even 22:15:08 -!- calamari has quit ("Leaving"). 23:21:52 -!- calamari has joined. 23:23:16 re's 23:34:40 -!- int-e has joined. 23:35:34 -!- int-e has left (?). 23:35:39 hi int-e 23:35:52 * calamari retracts that hi .. :P 23:43:43 if a language can emulate brainfuck, it's turing complete, right? 23:57:45 depends.. 23:57:58 can it emulate bf with unbounded memory? 23:58:35 (not talking about a specific implementation of the language, just theoretically) 23:59:08 if it has unbounded memory, it can emulate bf with unbounded memory 23:59:26 that 23:59:34 that's what I was getting at :) 2005-08-26: 00:00:09 was learning about DFA's today. Deterministic Finite Automata. Pretty cool 00:00:09 I typed something here: http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Talk:Gammaplex, I hope I didn't mess things up too much! But if that is correct, is it turing complete? 00:01:29 not familiar with the language 00:01:46 Aardwolf: what is "emulate"? 00:02:00 in this case, "do the same as" :) 00:02:03 hi lament 00:02:09 Aardwolf: that doesn't explain it at all 00:02:11 calamari: hi! 00:02:28 if a language can do the same as brainfuck, it must be some sort of superset 00:03:19 I added the turing complete category to this language because I'm pretty sure it's turing complete, but I'm not a professional. Should I remove the category again? 00:03:30 not necessarily.. there are workable subsets of bf 00:05:05 -!- frank__ has joined. 00:15:39 from my brief look at it I'd say it's Turing Complete, but I'm no expert on the subject either 00:19:39 if you want real proof I suggest writing a bf interpreter (something every new lang should have) 00:20:16 ok :) 00:21:47 note that a bf interpreter does not necessarily prove turing-completeness 00:21:49 example 00:21:59 suppose my language has only one command: 00:22:12 "read from stdin and execute as a brainfuck program" 00:22:18 is it turing-complete? not really 00:22:28 why not? 00:22:46 it can't even add 2 and 2 00:22:49 or write "hello world" 00:22:55 yeah it can 00:22:57 all it can do is execute brainfuck programs 00:23:41 i can't write a program expressing any possible computation in this language 00:23:58 i can only write one program at all :) 00:24:01 stdin: ++>++[<+>-] 00:24:06 is isn't a programming language at all, so it is a bit irrelevant whether or not it is TC 00:24:07 program: B 00:24:13 kipple: sure it is 00:24:39 well, then we disagree... :) 00:24:53 it's not a language it is an interpreter IMHO 00:25:12 umm 00:25:21 it's a language 00:25:24 it has one command 00:25:40 and that command is tc 00:25:40 i can write an interreter or a compiler for this language 00:25:54 (very very quickly :) ) 00:26:19 calamari: when considering turing-completess, we don't even care about IO 00:26:20 you'd have to implement bf in order to implement the language 00:26:34 IO is irrelevant to turing-completeness 00:26:48 lament: in this case IO is being used to transmit the program, so it is relevant 00:26:51 no 00:27:27 this is very interesting.. but.. things to do :) 00:27:41 whether the program is read from memory or stdin should be pretty much the same 00:27:49 but the program is not read from stdin 00:27:51 -!- frank__ has quit (Remote closed the connection). 00:27:59 hmm. true 00:28:02 suppose the command that reads and executes is "foo" 00:28:05 then my program is: 00:28:06 foo 00:29:52 better yet 00:29:56 let's call the command B 00:30:04 and insert it into HQ9+ 00:30:10 to make HBQ9+ 00:30:14 so that it's not the only command :) 00:30:36 well HQ9+ is not a programming language etiher, in my book.... 00:31:52 and why not? 00:31:53 but, of course, there doesn't exist a real definition of what a programming language actually _is_... 00:32:07 because you cannot program with it 00:32:15 hrm 00:32:33 sure you can 00:32:38 you can write hello world 00:32:43 or 99 bottles of beer 00:32:46 I can do that in word as well 00:32:47 or a quine... 00:33:23 do you consider the key combinations required to program your VCR a programming language? 00:34:19 kipple: that's a good example to help me study.. I should model that as a DFA 00:35:10 what's a DFA? 00:35:24 Deterministic Finite Automaton 00:36:21 M = (Q, sigma, delta, q, F). Where: 00:37:26 M = machine, Q= finite set of states, sigma=alphabet (set of characters), delta: transition function Q x sigma->Q, q:start state, F: set of accepting states 00:37:41 F is a subset of Q 00:37:51 I'll take your word for it ;) 00:38:24 you can perform constant memory computations with this type of machine 00:38:56 afk again 00:43:11 -!- calamari has quit ("bbl.. btw to implement the B command you'd need to implement BF"). 00:55:44 -!- Aardwolf has quit ("Leaving"). 03:22:55 -!- calamari has joined. 03:53:37 Hmmm.. so what did I miss? 03:54:25 dunno.. I should see how that whole HQ9B+ thing went :) 03:54:41 didn't go anywhere 04:00:07 That discussion seemed to... I dunno. Evaporate. 04:04:47 Keep it evaporated ;) 04:16:13 I have no intention of reviving it 04:16:41 * kipple is tempted.... 04:17:51 Im still fiddling with a treap-based language 04:17:58 Trying to get something thats fairly non-deterministic 04:18:05 treap? what's that? 04:18:13 a datastructure? 04:18:44 Yeah, its a type of binary tree with some heap properties 04:22:02 Im not sure if that would work, but it might be interesting 04:24:17 -!- calamari has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 04:26:07 Meh... that might not actually work so great. Im actually looking for an underlying data structure to represent a "bag" 04:26:55 The language has several (but limited) variables - maybe A-F registers, and the rest of memory is a "bag" of other junk. 04:27:44 what do you mean by "bag"? a datastructure where you only get a random node when you access? 04:29:38 exactly 04:30:29 true random access memory in other words ;) 04:31:55 I thought I might try to make something workable with it by including bags-of-bags 04:36:18 You could store a sort of ID number with the data in the bag-bag and then the data. I dunno... maybe not 04:36:29 Ive still got CRAWL to deal with too 04:50:13 -!- lament has quit ("Lost terminal"). 05:42:06 -!- calamari has joined. 06:00:34 -!- kipple has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 06:12:54 -!- Gs30ng has joined. 06:29:44 emulating bf and proving tc. interesting topic. 06:33:03 i guess we should define IO things clearly 06:33:39 turing machine itself has IO in a sense 06:34:35 even bf without . and , has IO in a sense 06:35:29 we can start the bf program with some processed tape 06:35:47 and can consider that the result tape is output 06:46:19 if it is forbidden to do such things on TM or BF, then church turing thesis is a joke. how can we do something with a machine if can't input anything to it or make it output anything? 06:46:49 in this point of view, i think lament is wrong in a sense 06:47:21 A true turing machine contains the entire "input" stream on the tape beforehand, and leaves the "output" stream on the tape. 06:47:33 yeap 06:48:48 and thus it means we can decide what to input 06:49:16 so lament's language with only B command is turing-complete, in my opinion 06:50:25 because we can decide what the B command will get and interpret 06:51:46 -!- pgimeno has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 06:52:04 -!- pgimeno has joined. 06:59:01 -!- pgimeno has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 06:59:04 -!- ChanServ has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 06:59:04 -!- calamari has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 06:59:06 -!- cpressey has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 06:59:06 -!- WildHalcyon has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 06:59:06 -!- cmeme has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 06:59:06 -!- ZeroOne has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 06:59:06 -!- mtve has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 06:59:07 -!- puzzlet has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 06:59:17 -!- clog has joined. 06:59:17 -!- clog has joined. 06:59:36 -!- puzzlet has quit (calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 06:59:45 -!- CXI has quit (calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 06:59:46 -!- tokigun has quit (calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 06:59:46 -!- lindi- has quit (calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 06:59:47 -!- puzzlet has joined. 06:59:49 -!- lindi- has joined. 06:59:51 -!- tokigun has joined. 07:00:00 -!- tokigun has quit (calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 07:00:00 -!- Gs30ng has quit (calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 07:00:01 -!- ChanServ has joined. 07:00:01 -!- irc.freenode.net has set channel mode: +o ChanServ. 07:00:04 -!- puzzlet has quit (calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 07:00:04 -!- ChanServ has quit (calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 07:00:20 -!- cpressey has joined. 07:00:34 -!- ChanServ has joined. 07:00:34 -!- puzzlet has joined. 07:00:34 -!- Gs30ng has joined. 07:00:34 -!- calamari has joined. 07:00:34 -!- pgimeno has joined. 07:00:34 -!- irc.freenode.net has set channel mode: +o ChanServ. 07:00:46 -!- GregorR has joined. 07:00:47 -!- mtve has joined. 07:00:48 -!- {^Raven^} has joined. 07:00:48 -!- CXI has joined. 07:00:49 -!- {^Raven^} has quit (calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 07:00:49 -!- mtve has quit (calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 07:00:56 -!- mtve has joined. 07:01:39 -!- {^Raven^} has joined. 07:03:35 -!- cmeme has joined. 07:04:50 -!- cmeme has quit (Client Quit). 07:05:31 -!- cmeme has joined. 07:06:47 -!- cmeme has quit (Client Quit). 07:07:27 -!- cmeme has joined. 07:08:43 -!- cmeme has quit (Client Quit). 07:09:23 -!- cmeme has joined. 07:09:48 -!- tokigun has joined. 07:10:39 -!- cmeme has quit (Client Quit). 07:11:20 -!- cmeme has joined. 07:15:33 -!- ZeroOne_ has joined. 07:53:48 Gs30ng: still here? 07:53:55 yes 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:15:13 -!- calamari_ has joined. 08:33:59 -!- calamari has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 08:54:42 -!- tokigun has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 08:56:42 -!- tokigun has joined. 08:58:29 retoki 09:18:42 -!- nooga has joined. 09:18:47 hi 09:19:00 hi nooga 09:20:31 -!- rosemary has joined. 09:21:15 :D 09:21:38 rosemary: only esolangs geeks here :) 09:21:41 desired result + piqued curiosity 09:21:50 hi rosemary 09:22:08 nooga - well I am niether esolang nor geek! 09:22:13 if you are female, you may very well be the first ever to be in this chatroom :) 09:22:52 as I commented my curiosity was piqued 09:22:55 hehe 09:23:11 how did you hear of this place? 09:23:25 nooga j #esoteric 09:23:25 nooga heh 09:23:31 from a linux channel when someone mentioned it 09:23:33 lol 09:23:47 my / key doesn't work sometime 09:24:00 sure nooga 09:24:14 brb 09:25:47 well - if this is some male thing, then I'm going elsewhere 09:26:02 sorry to intrude 09:26:04 it's for esoteric programming languages 09:26:15 not for males only.. :) 09:26:56 here is your nick in bf: ++++++++++++++[>++++++++>+++++++>++++++++><<<<-]>++.>>-.<<+.>+++.>--.<----.<-.+++++++. 09:27:02 okay ... well I do not understand about programming - just wish I had gotten into computers a decade earlier 09:28:23 we discuss weird ways of programming here.. so it's new to us as well when a new language is released 09:29:38 for a moment a I wondered if I had accidentally wandered into some wierd male channel! 09:30:25 rosemary: if you want to run that program there is an online interpreter here: http://koti.mbnet.fi/villes/php/bf.php 09:31:02 calamari what programme? 09:31:02 the channel is esoteric, but not for males only, afaik 09:31:22 copy that mess into the code box and click Run 09:31:51 of course not.. was only a joke :) 09:32:15 esoteric programmers unite! 09:32:28 hey puzzlet 09:32:42 hello 09:33:03 doubt I'll ever be a programmer - can copy basic scripts is all :-) 09:33:07 anyway night 09:33:14 -!- rosemary has left (?). 09:33:35 -!- Keymaker has joined. 09:33:52 Keymaker: you just missed an historic event, lol 09:33:59 wah? 09:34:00 lol 09:34:05 wha? 09:34:13 don't tell me dbc was here.. 09:34:13 first female in #esoteric 09:34:16 oh 09:34:17 is rosemary female? 09:34:19 ah 09:34:26 that's awesome too 09:34:33 indeed 09:34:46 i'll take a look at the logs 09:35:22 did i mention i've introduced esoteric languages in 1st Alternative Language Festival in Korea? http://altlang.org/ 09:35:38 woah 09:35:42 i don't even know any female programmer 09:35:59 Gs30ng, Vanneva Bush 09:36:19 and a female esolang programmer, just sounds like a hoax 09:37:42 puzzlet, i googled, and it was Vannevar Bush 09:37:44 what, vannevar bush is male? 09:38:08 what the president of usa?! 09:38:12 English names are confusing 09:39:13 like puzzlet 09:39:36 i always confuse puzzlet and fuzzlet 09:40:49 puzzlet: didn't realize you were in #mediawiki 09:40:58 about the esolang logo discussion; 09:41:07 me neither 09:41:10 i once drew couple of eso dodos 09:41:16 (as probably someone remembers) 09:41:26 puzzlet: I was asking about the Korean esowiki 09:41:29 i think the kipple's dodo idea was good 09:41:41 puzzlet: but it seems that to do it there have to be two different wikis 09:42:00 another idea for logo could be picture of dominatrix, inspired by that sadol book. 09:43:39 but contributors to the Korean wiki would be not more than 3 or 4 people 09:44:28 what if the wiki eventually becomes, like forgotten? 09:45:36 in wikipedia same problem occurs 09:45:39 Korean wiki should be incorporated with the English wiki in some ways 09:46:25 like using MediaWiki, bonded with the English wiki by interwiki links 09:47:26 i've heard it from Gs30ng, but i think MoinMoin is not likely in this case. 09:47:30 oh, and the main reason i came to visit the channel this time: i just made a new quine in brainfuck, 1606 instructions. my current record, that can be found at bf-hacks.org) is 933. but i tried a bit new stuff in this new one, so it might be possible that i break my current record, when i optimize this new quine. you see, this new one has no optimization.. 09:49:19 awk for 10 min. 09:52:07 hmm weird.. win2003 isn't telling me to reactivate. Maybe that's only an XP thing 09:53:00 .back 09:53:22 its sooo slow.. 98 is so much faster hehe 09:56:49 98 runs on my 486 laptop 09:56:54 with 24 MB ram 09:57:12 ...but debian 3 woody runs too 09:57:19 I have 95 on my 486/100.. 16mb ram 09:57:21 and does it faster 09:58:42 would run 3.1 on it, but 3.1 networking support is horrible 10:05:31 :) 10:05:35 anyways, gotta go 10:05:47 btw, can't come here for a while, i'm going to hiking for three days 10:05:59 a school course i selected for some reason.. x9 10:06:01 bye 10:06:08 -!- Keymaker has left (?). 10:08:43 wow, glad I'm not superstitious :) 10:09:43 my adventure game was about a hiker stranded in mountain woods for 3 days and having to make their way off alive 10:13:24 and you added irc connecting stuffs in that game 10:13:39 huh? :) 10:13:48 so Keymaker was a program 10:14:17 oh, haha.. I hope Keymaker doesn't get attacked by a bear and stuck in the woods ;) 10:15:07 not sure why, but I never was able to get motivated after my summer classes. burnt out or something 10:37:15 wow 3am.. cya all :) 10:37:20 -!- calamari_ has quit ("Leaving"). 11:09:11 -!- nooga has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 11:13:27 -!- nooga has joined. 11:30:25 -!- nooga has quit (Remote closed the connection). 12:41:06 -!- nooga has joined. 13:20:37 ;> 13:31:37 -!- clog has joined. 13:31:37 -!- clog has joined. 13:34:07 -!- cmeme has joined. 13:35:21 -!- cmeme has quit (Client Quit). 13:36:02 -!- cmeme has joined. 13:37:18 -!- cmeme has quit (Client Quit). 13:37:59 -!- cmeme has joined. 13:39:14 -!- cmeme has quit (Client Quit). 13:39:54 -!- cmeme has joined. 13:53:22 http://nooga.int.pl/sadol <- updated ;p 13:53:43 -!- nooga has quit. 13:54:11 -!- J|x has joined. 13:54:32 -!- kipple has joined. 14:25:06 -!- nooga has joined. 14:25:10 hi 14:38:55 hello 14:39:10 :) 14:39:40 nooga: ahhmmmm... i'm working on SADOL implementation 14:40:02 i've seen BDSM code. freaky naming.. my... 14:42:41 hehe 14:42:51 BDSM is not compliant 14:43:07 he worked on that in secret 14:43:20 so he didn't asked me about a few things 14:43:28 like a variable scope 14:43:35 yeah.. 14:43:35 and other things 14:43:49 now i try to describe it all 14:47:03 tokigun: why the naming is freaky? 14:47:27 think original meaning of BDSM... :) 14:48:08 heheh 14:48:25 it was intended 14:52:24 is BDSM a language/ 14:52:25 ? 14:52:33 puzzlet: no implementation 14:52:37 nooga: ~q1:i0@ maybe quine without list P... 14:53:33 BDSM is an implementation of SADOL 14:53:51 what does the name stand for? 14:54:10 Badly Developed SADOL Machine 14:54:21 http://regedit.risp.pl/BDSM/Readme.html 14:54:39 http://regedit.risp.pl/BDSM/ 14:54:45 tokigun: then write one ;p 14:55:02 nooga: it works well? 14:55:16 in my old interpreter 14:55:21 yeah 14:55:22 in BDSM no 14:55:27 hmmm 14:58:13 in documentation: ",212I like SADOL {a UAF call using KAF as the number of arguments} 14:58:25 is it a UAF call using UAF? 14:58:47 o fuck ;p 15:22:20 nooga: hmmm 15:23:16 when calling a function, local variables in caller are copied to local variables in the function? or removed from current scope? 15:26:37 what would be better? 15:28:39 i don't know... 15:29:01 hmm 15:29:15 +3"2am is equal to "33am ? 15:32:34 yes 15:33:06 nooga: hmm i think you've changed defintion of ' function... 15:33:26 yes 15:34:00 there is no function for converting a integer into a char 15:34:05 hmmm 15:34:19 then how to do it? 15:34:57 mabye make like this: '0% returns 37, '1,237 returns "1% 15:34:59 ? 15:35:04 what do you think? 15:35:10 nooga: i agree 15:35:24 then i'll change it in the table 15:35:47 but i've lost the password to my account -.- 15:35:53 :S 15:36:53 -!- WildHalcyon has joined. 15:40:02 :i,299:b",21899 bottles of beer:n',210@i(4!+++++++b",213 on the wall,nb"1,n",230Take one down, pass it around,n:i-i1:b+++i"7 bottle?-i1"1s"0"8 of beer!+++b",213 on the wall.nn 15:40:10 maybe 99 bottles of beer song. 15:40:48 huh 15:41:48 it works? 15:42:22 wait a moment 15:43:29 man, today's sucked 15:46:10 heh 15:46:24 BDSM requires a progn on the beggining 15:46:45 because it treats a program like a one big expression 15:46:59 not a list of expressions 16:02:49 uff 16:02:52 i got my pass back 16:14:28 huh 16:21:56 tokigun? 16:22:03 how's it going? 16:27:25 g2g 16:27:38 -!- nooga has quit. 16:59:16 -!- kipple_ has joined. 16:59:16 -!- kipple has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 17:29:43 hah ORKgl! 17:29:59 ORKsdl with ogl support! 17:30:23 i don't want to write that... 17:34:23 -!- J|x has changed nick to jix. 17:41:50 -!- Gs30ng has quit ("SKYIRC Ver Pro http://cafe.naver.com/skyirc.cafe #skyirc"). 17:42:33 Probably wouldn't be too difficult *shrugs* 17:42:38 Make a class with a bunch of ORK_ functions. 17:43:50 yes 17:44:23 but i'm not a ogl expert 17:44:34 i don't know the ogl calls... 17:44:49 hmm maybe vertex3f...(if that's correct) 17:45:09 -!- int-e has joined. 18:33:33 -!- lament has joined. 19:18:50 -!- nooga has joined. 19:18:56 me again 19:32:48 You again!? 19:32:50 YOU AGAIN?! 19:32:53 I mean, hi. 19:34:17 he he he 19:49:26 is he following you around, too, GregorR? 20:17:52 -!- nooga has quit ("Lost terminal"). 20:21:48 -!- nooga has joined. 20:41:51 -!- WildHalcyon has quit ("Adios!"). 20:56:26 hehe 20:57:01 my buddy wrote a fibbonacci string, qsort and bubble sort in SADOL 20:57:58 -!- jix has quit ("Bitte waehlen Sie eine Beerdigungnachricht"). 21:01:35 -!- calamari has joined. 21:27:49 -!- kipple__ has joined. 21:46:14 -!- kipple_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 22:03:29 heh 22:03:34 goodnight 22:04:02 -!- nooga has quit ("ziew"). 22:10:29 -!- kipple_ has joined. 22:18:48 -!- kipple__ has quit (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)). 22:55:39 -!- Aardwolf has joined. 23:17:47 -!- WildHalcyon has joined. 23:48:44 -!- ZeroOne_ has changed nick to ZeroOne. 2005-08-27: 00:16:55 -!- heatsink has joined. 00:23:14 -!- WildHalcyon has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 00:31:14 -!- Aardwolf has quit ("Leaving"). 01:01:05 -!- WildHalcyon has joined. 01:03:48 Hmmm 01:07:57 -!- calamari_ has joined. 01:08:12 -!- calamari has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 02:13:34 -!- int-e has quit ("Bye!"). 02:21:15 -!- heatsink has quit ("Leaving"). 02:43:36 *ribbit* 03:13:24 -!- ChanServ has quit (Shutting Down). 03:13:57 -!- ChanServ has joined. 03:13:57 -!- irc.freenode.net has set channel mode: +o ChanServ. 03:21:18 -!- WildHalcyon_ has joined. 03:26:11 -!- WildHalcyon has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 03:26:55 -!- WildHalcyon_ has quit ("Changing server"). 03:26:58 -!- WildHalcyon has joined. 03:27:23 -!- WildHalcyon has quit (Client Quit). 03:27:26 -!- WildHalcyon has joined. 03:51:51 -!- WildHalcyon_ has joined. 03:55:24 -!- WildHalcyon has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 04:35:31 -!- WildHalcyon_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 04:43:18 implemented DFA :) 04:51:19 -!- WildHalcyon has joined. 04:53:04 -!- kipple_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 05:04:28 -!- calamari- has joined. 05:09:28 -!- calamari_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 06:07:21 -!- WildHalcyon has quit ("Adios!"). 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:00:53 -!- nooga has joined. 08:00:57 hi 09:23:40 -!- calamari_ has joined. 09:29:06 -!- calamari- has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 09:42:12 -!- jix has joined. 09:49:35 hi jix 09:49:39 moin 09:49:42 moin calamari_ 09:50:05 hi 09:53:07 calamari_: why do you TIME me? 09:53:58 darwin 8.2 heh 09:54:51 nooga: mac os x 10.4.2 uses the darwin 8.2 kernel... 09:55:27 i know 09:55:41 jix: just curious what time it was there :) 09:55:42 it has got a funny mascot 09:55:51 nooga: yes 09:57:42 how about a meat grinder with nice code going in and esolang coming out? :) 10:01:43 hyyh 11:36:08 look, qsort in SADOL: http://agentj.risp.pl/wysypisko/uploads/qsort 11:37:16 -!- nooga has quit ("Leaving"). 11:41:55 -!- calamari_ has quit ("Leaving"). 11:56:31 -!- nooga has joined. 12:12:56 -!- nooga has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 13:18:20 -!- frank__ has joined. 13:46:01 -!- Aardwolf has joined. 14:16:59 -!- sp3tt has joined. 14:17:31 "It has become a tradition in the development of computer languages to implement each language in itself. This serves many purposes. By doing so, you demonstrate the versatility of the language, and its applicability for large projects. A compiler/interpreter is close to as complex as software ever gets." not in bf XD 14:19:14 ^_^ 14:22:47 -!- kipple_ has joined. 16:43:56 -!- jix has quit ("Bitte waehlen Sie eine Beerdigungnachricht"). 16:44:54 -!- nooga has joined. 16:44:57 hi 17:11:59 -!- CXI has quit ("I love it when x-chat has a memory leak for over 3 major revisions"). 17:16:37 -!- CXI has joined. 18:40:10 -!- WildHalcyon has joined. 18:42:59 hi ;) 18:43:35 hi 18:43:37 whats up? 18:44:12 hehe 18:44:18 ppl like SADOL 18:44:33 Its an interesting project 18:44:51 my friends wrote qsort, heapsort, bubblesort and fibbonacci in it :D 18:44:59 Im having serious developers' block with mine, so I keep pondering random side projects 18:45:25 and now i'm trying to write a hanoi solver 18:46:09 good luck 18:47:17 ;) 18:47:41 then i have to write hunt the wumpus... :p 18:48:04 hi tokigun 18:48:16 hello:) 18:48:36 today i thought about a namespaces 18:49:03 yeah? lol, crazy 18:49:32 eg. \xyz123 -> x::y::z(1,2,3) 18:49:46 wow 18:49:53 but i think that would be hard to implement 18:50:29 then maybe we'll leave it now 18:52:16 tokigun: did you begin the language part of your interpreter? 18:58:15 tokigun: hm? 18:58:47 hmmm 18:59:02 i'm working on it but also i'm writing another program 18:59:09 allright 18:59:16 sorry but i don't know when it is finished :S 18:59:23 no problem 19:10:38 -!- kipple_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 19:22:12 -!- Gs30ng has joined. 19:24:13 -!- nooga has quit (Remote closed the connection). 19:25:44 hi 19:31:02 SADOL is good 19:31:06 pretty good 19:31:41 ...in my opinion, as an esolang developer 19:31:48 well as a normal programmer... 19:32:49 i reluctantly say, it sucks. 19:33:34 but anyway this is really interesting language with some special concepts of it. i like it 19:40:34 lol 19:43:36 in normal langs, when an instruction gets plural operands, we often need the operators like () and comma or something 19:44:07 but in this lang an instruction can get plural operands without any operators 19:44:20 with some awful concepts 19:45:08 i like it... although i'm not gonna program anything in it 19:46:17 just thinking programming something in it horrifies me enough 19:47:42 -!- int-e has joined. 19:48:11 -!- int-e has left (?). 19:48:16 -!- int-e has joined. 19:49:23 -!- frank__ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 19:51:23 -!- frank__ has joined. 20:12:30 -!- sp3tt has quit ("Chatzilla 0.9.68.5 [Firefox 1.0.6/20050716]"). 20:21:05 what about unlambda (or haskell?) no instruction takes multiple operands :) 20:31:16 -!- WildHalcyon has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 21:06:42 -!- nooga has joined. 21:06:46 yo 21:07:30 -!- Gs30ng has quit ("SKYIRC Ver Pro http://cafe.naver.com/skyirc.cafe #skyirc"). 21:21:02 -!- WildHalcyon has joined. 21:52:52 ;> 22:11:34 stupid difficult math... :-( 22:14:31 -!- nooga has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 22:22:34 -!- WildHalcyon has quit ("Adios!"). 22:24:03 difficult math is rarely stupid 22:24:14 I agree 22:30:52 -!- kipple_ has joined. 2005-08-28: 00:04:16 -!- calamari has joined. 00:05:02 hi 00:05:10 hello 00:13:11 -!- int-e has left (?). 00:20:34 -!- frank__ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 00:40:19 -!- Aardwolf has quit ("Leaving"). 00:41:24 -!- lindi- has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 01:10:45 <{^Raven^}> hey peeps 01:12:24 you callin' me a peep? 01:12:40 <{^Raven^}> one of em, yup 01:12:54 :) 01:13:24 <{^Raven^}> i've been teaching someone about UTMs today :) 01:13:32 well, according to the esolang wiki I belong in [[category:people]] so I guess I am 01:14:15 <{^Raven^}> he's read lots of turing books without a single clear explanation of what a turing machine is or does 01:14:52 <{^Raven^}> i'm gonna get him started with BF 01:15:06 hehe. the more brainfuckers the merrier 01:15:31 <{^Raven^}> i reckon that it is an excellent introduction to turing machines 01:15:40 perhaps 01:16:13 <{^Raven^}> he was expecting something where the program was on the tape and there was no place for data 01:16:20 I'm not too familiar with turing machines, but aren't they supposed to work with different "states"? 01:19:25 <{^Raven^}> yeah, but his book examples were extremely non-trivial 01:20:30 I've only dealt with them in the introductory computer science class at the uni some 8 years ago, so I don't remember too much 01:21:51 <{^Raven^}> it's been a few years myself 01:22:09 <{^Raven^}> i find that the dormal definitions are too abstract and depend entirely of the POV of the author 01:22:14 <{^Raven^}> *formal 01:24:24 <{^Raven^}> but you have to admit that Turing developed an esolang as far back as 1936 01:24:51 hehe 01:25:28 all programming languages were esoteric back then 01:25:38 <{^Raven^}> he was the dude who said something along the lines of - why build a specific machine for each task, it would be better to build a programmable machine that can peform any task 01:26:23 <{^Raven^}> and then designed and helped to build one (the first programmable computer ;) 01:29:38 <{^Raven^}> but i digress, another brainfucker is hopefully on his way 01:30:35 <{^Raven^}> do you think that everyone thinks that we are insane for using esolangs? 01:30:46 <{^Raven^}> as in the general populace 01:30:54 does anybody know about it at all? 01:31:05 (if they knew they probably would, though) 01:31:33 <{^Raven^}> quite a few people have encountered it through the game I wrote in BFBASIC 01:31:44 <{^Raven^}> who have never heard of esolangs 01:32:02 hmm. I estimate 99.99% of the pop 01:32:08 <{^Raven^}> probably there are other esotools that have gone mainstream 01:32:42 LISP was kind of an esolang when it was made... 01:33:03 <{^Raven^}> definately - have you ever seen x86, that's just freaky 03:11:39 x86 is fine ;) 03:12:11 actually, I'm not sure why people don' like x86 03:12:27 is it because of the memory segment/offset thing? 03:12:48 because that takes all of 5 minutes to understand 03:16:34 or is it because Intel got popular, and it's in style not to like the big guy 04:03:46 -!- calamari_ has joined. 04:15:36 -!- calamari has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 04:17:07 -!- calamari_ has quit ("Leaving"). 04:52:06 -!- WildHalcyon has joined. 05:15:28 -!- kipple_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 05:17:49 -!- kipple_ has joined. 05:29:27 -!- calamari has joined. 05:32:58 -!- WildHalcyon has quit ("Adios!"). 05:50:51 -!- Ziron has joined. 05:51:03 -!- Ziron has left (?). 06:12:02 -!- kipple_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 06:51:41 -!- calamari has quit ("Leaving"). 07:41:59 -!- ZeroOne has quit (herbert.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 09:19:18 -!- ZeroOne has joined. 10:11:45 -!- jix has joined. 11:37:52 -!- lindi- has joined. 11:49:57 -!- cpressey has quit (Remote closed the connection). 11:50:05 -!- cpressey has joined. 12:29:35 -!- WildHalcyon has joined. 13:04:44 -!- WildHalcyon has quit ("Adios!"). 14:13:44 -!- kipple_ has joined. 15:50:08 -!- Aardwolf has joined. 17:45:29 -!- nooga has joined. 17:45:33 hi 18:06:09 hi 18:07:05 i just updated SADOL's webpage and joined into the esolang ring 18:12:46 http://nooga.int.pl/sadol/ 18:25:43 -!- int-e has joined. 18:39:18 hi int-e 20:07:45 -!- nooga has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 21:28:20 -!- calamari has joined. 21:28:23 hi 21:29:55 hey calamari: what's up with the EsoShell? 21:30:33 when I run it, there's a bunch of HTML code in the console 21:33:43 kipple: I'll heck that out 21:33:48 check too ;) 21:36:01 wow, that's not particularly impressive, is it 21:36:41 btw, does anybody now if INTERCAL is turing complete? 21:36:47 I think I remember what I was doing tho.. I was working on being able to save programs into a wiki page 21:40:00 so, have you dropped the project? 21:40:13 or is it just "on hold"? 21:40:19 dropped? no 21:40:50 good. 21:40:51 on hold 21:41:27 I remember trying to make an AWT version and being frustrated by that 21:41:39 kipple, intercal suffers from finite memory constraints ... 64k arrays with 64k words each. 21:41:49 then I was totally outclassed by a javascript unix shell featured on /. :) 21:42:32 int-e: OK. wikipedia claims it is TC, but I'll guess I'll remove that category then 21:42:52 calamari: yeah, I remember that one :) 21:43:44 kipple: it was most impressive.. even had threads and a ps command 21:44:05 but did it have a bf-interpreter? 21:44:10 nope! 21:44:19 then who cares! ;) 21:44:40 okay, I've fixed the code.. uploading the jar (will take a minute) 21:45:30 oh yeah.. no jar. hehe 21:47:01 hrm. intercal has multidimensional arrays? ok, it can access a lot more memory then (still finite for a given program though, so still not TC - although it allows for all practical computations to be done) 21:49:19 ok, fixed and online 21:49:32 you may need to close and reopen your browser for the cached copy to be released 21:50:52 yep. working again :) 21:50:58 hmm.. seem to be having versioning confusions there.. I'll upload all class files again 21:54:41 fixed :) 21:57:07 one of the nifty things about EsoShell is that it loads new modules on demand, rather that loading everything at once. Only slow connections like mine benefit from it tho :) 21:57:32 need modules for some other languages besides bf 21:58:31 yeah 21:58:53 that and a way to store files would make it awesome 21:59:28 yeah. graue gave the okay for storing the files in wiki.. I just need to code it 21:59:41 great 22:00:08 how do you handle multiple users? 22:00:43 will each user get his own storage space? 22:01:03 kipple_: ahhh, it doesn't work exactly that way 22:01:40 kipple_: think of it more like a ramdrive where you can save certain files to disk with a special command (or cp if I get fancy) 22:01:43 -!- kipple_ has changed nick to kipple. 22:02:23 so if you wrote to a file and I wrote later I could overwrite your changes, just like in the normal wiki 22:02:30 ah. ok 22:02:54 and since it is stored in the wiki, you could always get back previous versions? 22:03:00 right 22:03:16 you could even write the program in the wiki if you wanted to 22:03:27 that's cool 22:03:47 so, will each "file" get a separate article, or will they be combined on one page? 22:03:52 wiki_mount -r revision/date/whatever /mount/point /wiki/url? 22:03:59 hmm.. I'm not really doing anything now.. maybe I'll check it out again :) 22:04:15 currently there is no concept of a directory.. lol 22:04:48 oh 22:05:05 nice if there were at least one directory for each language 22:05:12 wiki_load /wiki/url target_file 22:05:19 yeah.. I suppose the page name can count 22:05:21 wiki_store /wiki/url source_file 22:05:34 iirc, graue was going to make an alternate namespace for EsoShell 22:05:55 so I could store Befunge programs in EsoShell:Befunge 22:06:04 i just wrote a cool ruby program (term has to support ansi colors) 22:06:04 (0..22).each{|x|(0..79).each{|b|c=a=b/19.5-2.5;d=b=(x-11)/9.0;i=91;(a,b=a*a-b* 22:06:05 b+c,2*a*b+d)&&i-=1while(a*a+b*b<4)&&(i>0);$><<"\e[4#{u=i&7}m "};puts"\e[0m"} 22:06:27 what does it do? 22:06:31 ruby: command not found hrm, need to fix that :) 22:06:50 kipple: it prints a nice picture on STDOUT 22:07:04 using ansi color codes 22:07:44 eek, 1 meg 22:08:19 actually, that's not bad at all for a programming language distribution 22:09:06 the debian package is 1.5M archived 22:09:28 maybe ubuntu's is different 22:09:51 the debian packag is missing the stdlibs but i don't use them it that program 22:09:52 yet another mandelbrot set generator. 22:09:58 ah, the mandelbrot 22:10:10 hi int-e 22:10:15 moin int-e 22:10:27 yes i think 22:10:27 puts"\e[2J\e[0;11r";$>.sync=m="\e[C";c='/,-=<>*+.:&%$'.split'';k=[!1]*25 22:10:28 z=",rekcah ybuR rehtona tsuJ".reverse;while k.index(!1);i=-1;print"\eM"* 22:10:28 7,"\e[H",k.map{|q|q ?" ":c[rand(13)]},"\e[6H",k.map{|q|u=z[i+=1,1];q ?u: 22:10:28 m},"\n",k.map{|q|q ?" ":m};k[rand(25)]=sleep 0.1;end;puts"\e[2J\e[r"+z#J 22:10:29 is nicer 22:10:32 at least that's what the code looks like to me 22:10:44 I just ran it, and you're correct 22:11:34 well, now I've got ruby installed as well :) the more the merrier 22:12:05 kipple: http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/User_talk:Calamari 22:13:19 that's how the shell stores programs? 22:13:33 yeah.. of course that's a mockup 22:14:00 n8 22:14:11 neight? 22:14:21 ;) 22:14:36 -!- jix has quit ("Bitte waehlen Sie eine Beerdigungnachricht"). 22:16:18 well, when you get the shell up and running in the wiki I'd be happy to port my kipple interpreter 22:17:00 cool 22:17:30 however, the next version of Kipple is also "on hold", so no rush ;) 22:17:33 I tried to make the api as similar to a standard java console app as possible 22:17:59 so if you have an existing kipple interpreter in Java the conversion will be minimal 22:18:05 I have 22:19:16 will stuff like System.out work? 22:21:03 yes, although it's simply out.print 22:22:29 All of my programs have been a single class.. haven't tested inner classes or that sort of thing.. maybe I should :) 2005-08-29: 00:17:20 How do I run the ruby code posted by jix? I typed ruby and then copypasted his code and pressed enter, but it doesn't do anything 00:21:30 mm I'm off, cya :) 00:21:32 -!- Aardwolf has quit ("Ik zen der is mee weg"). 00:21:38 you must end it with CTRL-D (linux) or CTRL-Z (win) 00:21:54 dang, too late 00:24:16 -!- calamari has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 00:25:21 -!- calamari has joined. 01:22:44 -!- WildHalcyon has joined. 02:05:01 -!- calamari has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 02:54:52 -!- int-e has quit ("Bye!"). 03:20:16 -!- WildHalcyon has quit ("Adios!"). 04:20:13 -!- kipple has left (?). 05:45:19 -!- int-e has joined. 05:45:35 -!- int-e has left (?). 07:27:18 -!- cmeme has quit (Connection timed out). 07:27:43 -!- cmeme has joined. 07:45:10 -!- cmeme has quit (Connection timed out). 07:46:09 -!- cmeme has joined. 07:47:25 -!- cmeme has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 07:48:05 -!- cmeme has joined. 07:49:21 -!- cmeme has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 07:50:02 -!- cmeme has joined. 07:51:17 -!- cmeme has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 07:51:58 -!- cmeme has joined. 07:53:13 -!- cmeme has quit (Client Quit). 07:53:54 -!- cmeme has joined. 07:55:10 -!- cmeme has quit (Client Quit). 07:55:50 -!- cmeme has joined. 07:57:07 -!- cmeme has quit (Client Quit). 07:57:47 -!- cmeme has joined. 07:59:03 -!- cmeme has quit (Client Quit). 07:59:44 -!- cmeme has joined. 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:00:59 -!- cmeme has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 08:01:40 -!- cmeme has joined. 08:02:55 -!- cmeme has quit (Client Quit). 08:03:36 -!- cmeme has joined. 08:04:51 -!- cmeme has quit (Client Quit). 08:05:32 -!- cmeme has joined. 08:06:48 -!- cmeme has quit (Client Quit). 08:07:28 -!- cmeme has joined. 08:08:44 -!- cmeme has quit (Connection reset by peer). 08:09:25 -!- cmeme has joined. 08:29:39 -!- cmeme has quit (Success). 08:43:45 -!- ZeroOne has quit (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)). 08:57:07 -!- ZeroOne_ has joined. 09:37:35 -!- ZeroOne_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 09:59:21 -!- ZeroOne_ has joined. 11:12:17 -!- calamari has joined. 11:12:28 hi 11:14:54 interested in comments on the following scheme: 11:15:12 cd Befunge (would change to the Befunge wiki page) 11:15:28 ls (would list files on the EsoShell:Befunge page) 11:16:01 a file would be named something like wiki:HelloWorld 11:17:00 if I wrote to "hello" it would be in RAM (not on the wiki), but I could do cp hello wiki:HelloWorld to save my changes 11:17:20 perhaps mount Befunge is more appropriate 11:17:49 anyhow.. is it too confusing? 11:18:25 hmm 11:18:40 the idea is that if I allowed regular read/write to go to the wiki, it would probably clog up the wiki will all sorts of temporary files 11:18:41 why not cvs? 11:19:03 huh? :) 11:19:06 edit, test, edit, test, cvs commit when it's ready 11:19:42 EsoShell doesn't use cvs 11:19:59 now i'm bit confused 11:20:27 graue is (or did) create a special wiki namespace EsoShell 11:20:31 you want contribute to a wiki from EsoShell? 11:20:51 so EsoShell:Befunge will be the place to store files for Befunge 11:21:12 for example HelloWorld.bf (or whatever) 11:21:36 then EsoShell can access those files from the wiki 11:22:04 this gives it permanent storage capabilities, backed up my the reverting power of the wiki 11:22:14 hmm 11:22:19 -!- tokigun has quit ("leaving"). 11:23:54 I think it'll be a cool way to share and run esoteric programs 11:24:44 does wiki: seem okay as a file prefix? 11:31:18 hmm, I wonder if there is a way to get a list of all pages in a particular wiki namespace 11:37:04 -!- tokigun has joined. 11:37:40 -!- cmeme has joined. 11:38:01 -!- cmeme has quit (Remote closed the connection). 11:38:41 -!- cmeme has joined. 11:39:57 -!- cmeme has quit (Client Quit). 11:40:38 -!- cmeme has joined. 11:58:13 -!- cmeme has quit (Connection timed out). 11:59:28 -!- cmeme has joined. 12:00:43 -!- cmeme has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 12:01:24 -!- cmeme has joined. 12:02:40 -!- cmeme has quit (Client Quit). 12:03:21 -!- cmeme has joined. 12:04:36 -!- cmeme has quit (Client Quit). 12:05:16 -!- cmeme has joined. 12:06:32 -!- cmeme has quit (Client Quit). 12:07:12 -!- cmeme has joined. 12:08:28 -!- cmeme has quit (Client Quit). 12:09:09 -!- cmeme has joined. 12:10:24 -!- cmeme has quit (Client Quit). 12:11:05 -!- cmeme has joined. 12:12:20 -!- cmeme has quit (Client Quit). 12:13:01 -!- cmeme has joined. 12:14:17 -!- cmeme has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 12:14:57 -!- cmeme has joined. 12:16:13 -!- cmeme has quit (Client Quit). 12:16:53 -!- cmeme has joined. 12:18:09 -!- cmeme has quit (Client Quit). 12:18:49 -!- cmeme has joined. 12:20:05 -!- cmeme has quit (Client Quit). 12:20:46 -!- cmeme has joined. 12:22:01 -!- cmeme has quit (Client Quit). 12:22:42 -!- cmeme has joined. 12:23:57 -!- cmeme has quit (Client Quit). 12:24:38 -!- cmeme has joined. 12:25:54 -!- cmeme has quit (Client Quit). 12:26:34 -!- cmeme has joined. 12:27:50 -!- cmeme has quit (Client Quit). 12:28:31 -!- cmeme has joined. 12:29:46 -!- cmeme has quit (Client Quit). 12:30:27 -!- cmeme has joined. 12:31:42 -!- cmeme has quit (Client Quit). 12:32:12 -!- ChanServ has quit (herbert.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 12:32:13 -!- mtve has quit (herbert.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 12:32:14 -!- pgimeno has quit (herbert.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 12:32:14 -!- calamari has quit (herbert.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 12:32:14 -!- lindi- has quit (herbert.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 12:32:14 -!- lament has quit (herbert.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 12:32:14 -!- {^Raven^} has quit (herbert.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 12:32:15 -!- GregorR has quit (herbert.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 12:32:36 -!- ChanServ has joined. 12:32:36 -!- irc.freenode.net has set channel mode: +o ChanServ. 12:33:26 -!- clog has joined. 12:33:26 -!- clog has joined. 12:33:30 -!- mtve has joined. 12:34:17 -!- {^Raven^} has joined. 12:34:30 -!- cpressey has joined. 12:34:30 -!- CXI has joined. 12:34:36 -!- calamari has joined. 12:37:39 -!- puzzlet has joined. 12:39:23 -!- cmeme has joined. 12:40:37 -!- cmeme has quit (Client Quit). 12:41:18 -!- cmeme has joined. 12:42:24 -!- lament has joined. 12:42:34 -!- cmeme has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 12:42:47 -!- tokigun has joined. 12:43:14 -!- cmeme has joined. 12:44:13 -!- pgimeno has joined. 12:44:30 -!- cmeme has quit (Client Quit). 12:45:11 -!- cmeme has joined. 12:46:26 -!- cmeme has quit (Client Quit). 12:47:07 -!- cmeme has joined. 12:48:22 -!- cmeme has quit (Client Quit). 12:49:03 -!- cmeme has joined. 12:50:18 -!- cmeme has quit (Client Quit). 13:02:44 -!- J|x has joined. 13:07:43 hi jix, bye jix 13:07:45 -!- calamari has quit ("Leaving"). 13:10:39 -!- calamari has joined. 13:10:43 -!- calamari has left (?). 13:13:43 lol 13:32:03 <{^Raven^}> jix: I looked at those compression schemes you suggested, only two were better than my own: rice gave 0.001% better compression and huffman gave 5% better. I have written new algorithm which is 10% better. 13:32:25 you combined rice with mtf? 13:33:08 <{^Raven^}> no, combined my CCC1 with dictionary, it gives much better results 13:33:20 can i have your source code and test data? 13:34:50 <{^Raven^}> one sec 13:35:04 -!- ZeroOne_ has joined. 13:35:23 moin 10_ 13:35:27 arg 13:35:28 01_ 13:41:10 <{^Raven^}> jix: http://jonripley.com/volatile/forjix.zip 13:41:59 {^Raven^}: thanks 13:42:49 <{^Raven^}> no probs, please do not share 13:43:49 <{^Raven^}> jix: i hope that you're not entering the 2k comp, you've got all my secrets 13:44:09 {^Raven^}: hehe 13:44:36 i'd use zlib for compression *g* 13:44:47 require'zlib'... 13:45:13 <{^Raven^}> erm, i would need to code the zlib decompression myself from scratch and in less than 400 bytes of code 13:45:27 zlib is in the ruby stdlib 13:45:37 -!- J|x has changed nick to jix. 13:45:43 and my old game is written in ruby 13:46:04 but i'm not going to enter with it.. it's too bad imo 13:46:29 <{^Raven^}> I'm using BBC BASIC and coding everything from scratch 13:46:49 <{^Raven^}> using no libraries or external code 13:47:02 yes the reason i don't enter is that i used zlib and i count that as cheating 13:47:32 <{^Raven^}> same here, one guy I believe is using Java and as many libraries as he can 13:48:16 <{^Raven^}> the decompression routine for Source_Old.dat is only 120 bytes 13:48:25 source code? 13:48:48 or byte-source-code-something? 13:49:20 <{^Raven^}> yup 120 bytes of source code. 13:49:29 that's short 13:50:21 <{^Raven^}> thx. Code optimisation and algorithm design is one of my specialties 13:50:30 Compress.txt is 3kb much larger 13:50:55 <{^Raven^}> The compressor can be huge as it is not part of the final product 13:51:04 oh 13:51:07 yes... 13:52:00 <{^Raven^}> The trick is to get the best compression and have the smallest possible decompressor 13:52:16 yes 13:52:50 <{^Raven^}> My new compression algorithm becomes more efficient as the size of source data increasses 13:53:57 i'm searching my old lz77 variation code 13:54:44 31 lines of code for decompression 13:54:50 30 13:55:20 <{^Raven^}> mine is 2 lines for the current scheme and probably 5 lines for the new scheme 13:55:31 333 bytes of non-space code (the code is indented and not written for shortness) 13:57:38 -!- ChanServ has quit (Shutting Down). 13:57:51 lzjx (my lz variation) with the hard coded default settings compresses not as good as your new scheme (100 bytes larger) 13:58:13 -!- ChanServ has joined. 13:58:13 -!- irc.freenode.net has set channel mode: +o ChanServ. 13:59:30 * {^Raven^} wonders if he cannot post anymore 14:00:39 you have to register your nick.. they blocked unregistered users because of spamming attacks 14:00:57 but they forgot to block /me's... 14:01:06 <{^Raven^}> i'll go do that 14:01:10 hum 14:11:06 -!- ChanServ has quit (niven.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 14:11:06 -!- CXI has quit (niven.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 14:11:07 -!- pgimeno has quit (niven.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 14:11:07 -!- ZeroOne_ has quit (niven.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 14:11:14 -!- {^Raven^} has quit (niven.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 14:11:14 -!- puzzlet has quit (niven.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 14:11:16 -!- tokigun has quit (niven.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 14:11:16 -!- jix has quit (niven.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 14:11:16 -!- lament has quit (niven.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 14:11:16 -!- cpressey has quit (niven.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 14:11:16 -!- GregorR has quit 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domain-whois his email address is completelycrazy AT(Yes AT) aol.com 19:09:57 he delegated it to someone 19:10:10 calamari, I think 19:11:59 www.esolangs.org works fine for me as well, but the wiki gives a database error 19:12:25 that means you're accessing the old server 19:12:51 indeed. the other address works 19:14:22 anyway, we had a discussion here the other day about changing the default skin of the wiki to monobook (same as wikipedia). I would definately prefer that, and a couple of others agreed. 19:18:49 -!- wildhalcyon has joined. 19:26:46 think of it as a motivation to get an account (so you can switch to a better looking skin) 19:26:54 hehe :) 19:31:16 -!- cmeme has quit (Connection timed out). 19:34:14 -!- graue has quit ("ircII EPIC4-1.1.12 -- Are we there yet?"). 20:08:45 -!- kipple has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 20:24:35 -!- kipple has joined. 20:27:30 -!- cmeme has joined. 20:27:51 -!- cmeme has quit (Remote closed the connection). 20:28:31 -!- cmeme has joined. 21:10:11 -!- int-e has joined. 21:58:02 -!- Aardwolf has joined. 21:58:07 Hey, what's this? http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Chem 22:01:55 apparently something that wants to be deleted 22:06:22 -!- jix has quit ("Bitte waehlen Sie eine Beerdigungnachricht"). 22:07:16 the summary for the edit says "(Just test)". 22:07:37 thanks for notifying, Aardwolf 22:07:44 I've moved it to Esolang:Sandbox 22:08:07 good idea 23:42:22 -!- CXI has quit (niven.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 23:42:22 -!- pgimeno has quit (niven.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 23:42:22 -!- int-e has quit (niven.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 23:42:24 -!- puzzlet has quit (niven.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 23:42:31 -!- {^Raven^} has quit (niven.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 23:42:31 -!- cmeme has quit (niven.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 23:44:03 -!- int-e has joined. 23:44:48 -!- Aardwolf has quit (niven.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 23:44:49 -!- lament has quit (niven.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 23:44:56 -!- GregorR has quit (niven.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 23:44:56 -!- cpressey has quit (niven.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 23:44:56 -!- int-e has quit (niven.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 23:44:56 -!- kipple has quit (niven.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 23:44:56 -!- wildhalcyon has quit (niven.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 23:44:56 -!- ChanServ has quit (niven.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 23:52:00 -!- kipple has joined. 23:52:00 -!- wildhalcyon has joined. 23:53:23 -!- ChanServ has joined. 23:53:23 -!- irc.freenode.net has set channel mode: +o ChanServ. 23:53:34 -!- Aardwolf has joined. 23:53:34 -!- lament has joined. 23:53:34 -!- cpressey has joined. 23:53:34 -!- GregorR has joined. 23:54:08 -!- CXI has joined. 23:54:08 -!- cmeme has joined. 23:54:08 -!- {^Raven^} has joined. 23:54:14 -!- int-e has joined. 23:54:14 -!- puzzlet has joined. 23:54:54 -!- pgimeno has joined. 23:56:41 -!- clog has joined. 23:56:41 -!- clog has joined. 23:56:47 -!- tokigun has joined. 23:56:50 -!- kipple has joined. 23:56:50 -!- wildhalcyon has joined. 23:57:06 -!- ZeroOne has joined. 23:57:11 -!- mtve has joined. 2005-08-30: 00:17:46 -!- mtve has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 00:17:47 -!- wildhalcyon has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 00:17:47 -!- kipple has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 00:18:03 -!- mtve has joined. 00:19:19 -!- kipple has joined. 00:29:47 -!- Aardwolf has quit ("Ik zen der is mee weg"). 01:16:41 -!- cmeme has quit ("Client terminated by server"). 01:16:55 -!- cmeme has joined. 01:29:38 -!- int-e has left (?). 03:16:19 -!- wildhalcyon has joined. 03:16:40 Did I miss anything exciting? 03:39:00 -!- wildhalcyon has quit ("leafChat IRC client: http://www.leafdigital.com/Software/leafChat/"). 04:59:49 -!- lindi- has joined. 06:25:00 -!- kipple has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 06:52:54 -!- cmeme has quit (Remote closed the connection). 06:53:48 -!- cmeme has joined. 06:54:09 -!- cmeme has quit (Remote closed the connection). 06:54:50 -!- cmeme has joined. 06:57:06 -!- int-e has joined. 07:45:13 -!- clog has quit (^C). 07:45:13 -!- clog has quit (ended). 07:45:29 -!- clog has joined. 07:45:29 -!- clog has joined. 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 13:47:26 -!- int-e has quit ("Bye!"). 14:27:57 -!- jix has joined. 15:04:05 -!- nooga has joined. 15:04:09 hi 15:10:11 -!- kipple has joined. 15:33:40 -!- nooga has quit. 16:22:13 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 16:40:57 moin 16:48:20 -!- puzzlet has joined. 18:09:38 -!- wildhalcyon has joined. 18:56:23 -!- int-e has joined. 20:13:03 -!- jix has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 20:58:19 -!- jix has joined. 20:59:14 moin 21:04:42 How you doin Jix? 21:17:20 hmmm... 21:17:57 i've done a better compression than {^Raven^}'s 21:18:25 and i'm going to sleep now 21:18:39 -!- jix has quit ("Bitte waehlen Sie eine Beerdigungnachricht"). 21:44:10 -!- int-e has quit (niven.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 22:17:22 -!- wildhalcyon has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 22:37:50 -!- cmeme has quit ("Client terminated by server"). 22:38:32 -!- cmeme has joined. 22:39:47 -!- cmeme has quit (Client Quit). 22:40:28 -!- cmeme has joined. 22:41:43 -!- cmeme has quit (Client Quit). 22:42:21 -!- calamari has joined. 22:42:24 -!- cmeme has joined. 22:42:26 hi 22:43:39 -!- cmeme has quit (Client Quit). 22:44:20 -!- cmeme has joined. 22:45:36 -!- cmeme has quit (Client Quit). 22:46:17 -!- cmeme has joined. 22:46:56 so do I need to change something for esolangs.org, or is the problem on graue's end? http://esolangs.org seems to get to graue's website just fine 22:47:14 afaik there is no such thing as a direct for a particular directory on a website 22:47:32 -!- cmeme has quit (Client Quit). 22:48:13 -!- cmeme has joined. 22:49:00 graue: if something does need to be changed, please e-mail me jeff () kidsquid.com, with the new ip address. Thanks. 22:49:28 -!- cmeme has quit (Client Quit). 22:50:09 -!- cmeme has joined. 22:51:24 -!- cmeme has quit (Client Quit). 22:52:05 -!- cmeme has joined. 22:52:57 gotta go.. someone please let graue know to e-mail me about this. thanks :) 22:53:03 -!- calamari has quit ("Leaving"). 22:53:20 -!- cmeme has quit (Connection reset by peer). 22:54:01 -!- cmeme has joined. 22:55:16 -!- cmeme has quit (Client Quit). 22:55:57 -!- cmeme has joined. 22:57:13 -!- cmeme has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 22:57:53 -!- cmeme has joined. 22:59:09 -!- cmeme has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 22:59:50 -!- cmeme has joined. 23:01:05 -!- cmeme has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 23:01:46 -!- cmeme has joined. 23:03:01 -!- cmeme has quit (Client Quit). 23:03:42 -!- cmeme has joined. 23:04:58 -!- cmeme has quit (Client Quit). 23:05:38 -!- cmeme has joined. 23:06:54 -!- cmeme has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 23:07:35 -!- cmeme has joined. 23:08:50 -!- cmeme has quit (Client Quit). 23:09:31 -!- cmeme has joined. 23:10:46 -!- cmeme has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 23:11:27 -!- cmeme has joined. 23:12:42 -!- cmeme has quit (Client Quit). 23:13:23 -!- cmeme has joined. 23:14:38 -!- cmeme has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 23:15:19 -!- cmeme has joined. 23:16:35 -!- cmeme has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 23:17:16 -!- cmeme has joined. 23:18:31 -!- cmeme has quit (Client Quit). 23:19:13 -!- cmeme has joined. 23:20:27 -!- cmeme has quit (Client Quit). 23:21:08 -!- cmeme has joined. 23:22:23 -!- cmeme has quit (Client Quit). 23:23:04 -!- cmeme has joined. 23:24:20 -!- cmeme has quit (Client Quit). 23:25:00 -!- cmeme has joined. 23:26:15 -!- cmeme has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 23:26:43 -!- wildhalcyon has joined. 23:26:56 -!- cmeme has joined. 23:28:12 -!- cmeme has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 23:28:53 -!- cmeme has joined. 23:30:08 -!- cmeme has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 23:30:49 -!- cmeme has joined. 23:32:04 -!- cmeme has quit (Client Quit). 23:32:45 -!- cmeme has joined. 23:33:58 <{^Raven^}> is it just me or is freenote going nuts these days? 23:34:00 -!- cmeme has quit (Client Quit). 23:34:03 <{^Raven^}> *freenode 23:34:41 -!- cmeme has joined. 23:35:56 -!- cmeme has quit (Client Quit). 23:36:37 -!- cmeme has joined. 23:37:53 -!- cmeme has quit (Client Quit). 23:38:34 -!- cmeme has joined. 23:39:49 -!- cmeme has quit (Client Quit). 23:40:30 -!- cmeme has joined. 23:41:45 -!- cmeme has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 23:42:26 -!- cmeme has joined. 23:43:41 -!- cmeme has quit (Client Quit). 23:44:22 -!- cmeme has joined. 23:45:38 -!- cmeme has quit (Client Quit). 23:46:18 -!- cmeme has joined. 23:47:34 -!- cmeme has quit (Client Quit). 23:47:35 -!- klutzy has joined. 23:48:14 -!- cmeme has joined. 23:49:30 -!- cmeme has quit (Client Quit). 23:50:11 -!- cmeme has joined. 23:51:26 -!- cmeme has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 23:52:07 -!- cmeme has joined. 23:53:22 -!- cmeme has quit (Client Quit). 23:54:03 -!- cmeme has joined. 23:55:18 -!- cmeme has quit (Client Quit). 23:55:59 -!- cmeme has joined. 23:57:14 -!- cmeme has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 23:57:55 -!- cmeme has joined. 23:59:10 -!- cmeme has quit (Client Quit). 23:59:51 -!- cmeme has joined. 2005-08-31: 00:01:07 -!- cmeme has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 00:01:48 -!- cmeme has joined. 00:03:03 -!- cmeme has quit (Client Quit). 00:03:44 -!- cmeme has joined. 00:03:44 dang, cmeme, I think there is something wrong with your connection 00:04:59 -!- cmeme has quit (Client Quit). 00:05:40 -!- cmeme has joined. 00:06:55 -!- cmeme has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 00:07:31 * pgimeno writes something to know which log is cmeme generating 00:07:36 -!- cmeme has joined. 00:08:47 bye cmeme 00:08:51 -!- cmeme has quit (Client Quit). 00:09:17 wow. how did you know he was gonna sign off? Are you psychic? ;) 00:09:32 -!- cmeme has joined. 00:09:34 yeah, this is an esoteric chan isn't it? 00:10:48 -!- cmeme has quit (Client Quit). 00:11:29 -!- cmeme has joined. 00:12:02 -!- klutzy has quit (Remote closed the connection). 00:12:44 -!- cmeme has quit (Client Quit). 00:13:25 -!- cmeme has joined. 00:14:40 -!- cmeme has quit (Client Quit). 00:15:21 -!- cmeme has joined. 00:16:20 -!- pgimeno has left (?). 00:16:24 -!- pgimeno has joined. 00:16:36 -!- cmeme has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 00:17:17 -!- cmeme has joined. 00:18:33 -!- cmeme has quit (Client Quit). 00:19:13 -!- cmeme has joined. 00:20:29 -!- cmeme has quit (Client Quit). 00:21:09 -!- cmeme has joined. 00:22:25 -!- cmeme has quit (Client Quit). 00:23:06 -!- cmeme has joined. 00:24:21 -!- cmeme has quit (Client Quit). 00:25:02 -!- cmeme has joined. 00:26:17 -!- cmeme has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 00:26:58 -!- cmeme has joined. 00:28:14 -!- cmeme has quit (Client Quit). 00:28:54 -!- cmeme has joined. 00:30:09 -!- cmeme has quit (Client Quit). 00:30:50 -!- cmeme has joined. 00:32:06 -!- cmeme has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 00:32:47 -!- cmeme has joined. 00:34:02 -!- cmeme has quit (Client Quit). 00:34:43 -!- cmeme has joined. 00:35:58 -!- cmeme has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 00:37:51 -!- cmeme has joined. 00:38:12 -!- cmeme has quit (Remote closed the connection). 00:38:53 -!- cmeme has joined. 00:40:08 -!- cmeme has quit (Client Quit). 00:40:49 -!- cmeme has joined. 00:42:04 -!- cmeme has quit (Client Quit). 00:42:45 -!- cmeme has joined. 00:44:00 -!- cmeme has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 00:44:41 -!- cmeme has joined. 00:45:43 -!- cmeme has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 01:06:50 -!- cmeme has joined. 01:07:14 -!- cmeme has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 01:07:51 -!- cmeme has joined. 01:09:11 -!- cmeme has quit (Client Quit). 01:09:47 -!- cmeme has joined. 01:09:52 -!- cmeme has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 01:10:56 -!- cmeme has joined. 01:11:21 -!- cmeme has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 01:14:30 -!- cmeme has joined. 01:18:06 -!- cmeme has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 01:20:59 -!- cmeme has joined. 01:31:45 -!- wildhalcyon has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 01:35:04 -!- wildhalcyon has joined. 01:35:43 Alright, all this noise subside yet? 02:11:21 -!- pgimeno has quit (niven.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 02:11:21 -!- CXI has quit (niven.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 02:11:36 -!- pgimeno has joined. 02:11:48 -!- CXI has joined. 02:15:09 -!- pgimeno has quit (niven.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 02:15:21 -!- pgimeno has joined. 04:21:22 -!- wildhalcyon has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 04:58:58 -!- pgimeno has quit (niven.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 04:58:58 -!- CXI has quit (niven.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 04:58:58 -!- lindi- has quit (niven.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 04:59:27 -!- ZeroOne has quit (niven.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 04:59:27 -!- {^Raven^} has quit (niven.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 04:59:27 -!- puzzlet has quit (niven.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 04:59:27 -!- kipple has quit (niven.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 04:59:34 -!- cmeme has quit (niven.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 04:59:34 -!- lament has quit (niven.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 04:59:34 -!- cpressey has quit (niven.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 04:59:34 -!- GregorR has quit (niven.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 04:59:34 -!- tokigun has quit (niven.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 04:59:34 -!- ChanServ has quit (niven.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 04:59:34 -!- cpressey has joined. 04:59:35 -!- clog has joined. 04:59:35 -!- clog has joined. 04:59:40 -!- CXI has joined. 05:00:03 -!- mtve has joined. 05:00:13 -!- {^Raven^} has joined. 05:00:24 -!- GregorR has joined. 05:00:50 -!- kipple has quit (zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 05:00:51 -!- puzzlet has quit (zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 05:02:44 -!- cmeme has joined. 05:04:05 -!- tokigun has joined. 05:04:07 -!- lament has joined. 05:04:12 -!- cpressey has joined. 05:06:01 -!- puzzlet has joined. 05:19:44 -!- ZeroOne_ has joined. 05:51:54 -!- calamari has joined. 06:32:11 -!- int-e has joined. 06:37:35 hi int-e 06:38:01 I'm writing a libc that works on any (UNIXish) OS :) 06:38:12 By detecting the OS at runtime :) 06:38:29 can I have a dos version? :) 06:38:39 DOS is VERY UNIXish :P 06:39:00 everyone claims it was a unix ripoff ;) 06:39:04 lol 06:39:49 actually, I was messing around in dosbox the oother day after not having to use it for several months (Linux).. was quite primitive. Can't believe I used to like it 06:40:02 Heheh 06:40:07 Anybody have a NetBSD/i386 box? 06:40:14 * cpressey raises his hand 06:40:25 Mind testing if this crossbinary works on it? 06:40:27 hey Chris 06:40:31 hey 06:40:36 I'm not sure if my genericish BSD hacks work with NetBSD. 06:40:51 GregorR: the box is kind of busy building stuff atm, but i can give it a shot in the morning 06:40:57 Chris: how is your family? any kids yet? 06:41:04 heh 06:41:06 cpressey: Thanks, lemme post a link. 06:41:06 no. 06:41:16 thanks for asking though :) 06:41:21 how's it going with you calamari? 06:41:29 Chris: pretty good 06:41:43 got my financial aid finally, so school is paid for 06:41:54 cpressey: http://www.codu.org/HelloWorldX.elf 06:41:54 cool. 06:43:30 GregorR: ok... so how is it supposed to work, exactly? i can try it out on FreeBSD 4.x right now if you like. 06:43:41 oh, and DragonFlyBSD. heh 06:43:47 I already know that it works on FreeBSD *shrugs* 06:43:52 Just chmod 0755 it and run it. 06:44:08 It should work on Linuxen (GNU or no), BSD and Solaris on x86 06:44:23 ELF binary type "0" not known. 06:44:24 Abort 06:44:42 Hmm, it shouldn't be set to type 0, I thought I changed that XDF 06:44:44 *XD 06:44:46 One sec. 06:44:55 OK, forgot to change it :P 06:45:02 Oh, I know what happened, strip unset it. 06:45:33 Reuploaded. 06:45:41 ok, there's still something i'm missing - if it's a libc, why am i suposed to run it? shouldn't i be like linking to it or something? 06:45:52 I linked my libc into a hello world. 06:46:05 ah 06:46:07 i see 06:46:29 (My libc = newlib's OS-independent stuff + some nasty hackery for OS-dependent stuff) 06:46:32 is the hang after printing the message intentional? 06:46:47 ATM I know of know way to halt the program that works on every OS :P 06:47:01 So I left a hang there for the moment, so as to not make worthless core files. 06:47:09 *know of no way 06:47:44 interesting. 06:47:55 i'll try it on netbsd when the box is free, and get back to you. 06:48:02 That would be awesome, thanks :) 06:52:31 great, now you;ve got me thinking about what it would take to support >1 instruction sets... assuming ELF doesn't support that... it probably does, but that makes it uninteresting. it would be far more interesting to have to write a multi-machine polyglot that detects the processor and jumps to an appropriate interpretation routine which runs the actual code, written in some VM 06:57:24 Yeah, I know :) 06:57:27 I'm not even trying for that. 07:21:26 anyone happen to knwo the correct ip to the wiki? http://207.7.108.149/wiki doesn't seem to work 07:22:36 kinda weird too, because esoteric.voxelperfect.net supposedly resolves to that.. 07:31:50 That's not weird at all, it is apparently running a web server that serves multiple domains and uses the HTTP Host: header field to distinguish between those. 07:35:17 umm, ok? 07:35:40 so how do I find out the real ip 07:35:47 that is the real IP 07:36:00 but you need the host name as part of the HTTP query to make it work, like this: 07:36:04 > nc 207.7.108.149 80 07:36:04 GET /wiki/Main_Page HTTP/1.0 07:36:04 Host: esoteric.voxelperfect.net 07:36:21 hmm, then I don't get it, because graue was saying it was broken 07:36:22 [newline] -> get the mainpage of the wiki 07:36:28 and that he had a new ip 07:39:02 if whoever does the DNS for www.esolangs.org could update it, that would be nice 17:57:17 the server changed its IP address, but esoteric.voxelperfect.net still works 07:39:18 maybe I need to wait until graue gets here to find out the new ip 07:41:26 oh fun, I see what he means. 'www.esolangs.org has address 70.85.100.4' '[70.85.100.4] is pendrell.textdrive.com' 'pendrell.textdrive.com has address 207.7.108.149' 07:46:26 and the error can be seen on http://www.esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page 07:46:48 while http://www.esolangs.org/wiki gets forwarded to voxelperfect so that works 07:47:11 I changed the ip for esolangs.org to 207.7.108.149.. hopefully that'll work then :) 07:47:51 yep, seems to have 07:48:13 cool.. my uneducated guess still worked then :) 07:48:50 I left www.esolangs.org alone, so it should still be broken 07:48:55 hrm, could you change www.esolangs.org, too? 07:49:08 int-e: I didn't want to change both, in case I was wrong 07:49:17 (changing it now) 07:49:17 you aren't. 07:50:47 done.. now spreading around the globe :) 07:55:34 ah, primary nameservers are updated ... up to an hour from now. 07:55:36 :) 07:56:19 well, either wait an hour or type it the other way for now ;) 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 09:21:34 -!- kipple has joined. 09:29:54 -!- calamari_ has joined. 09:31:16 -!- calamari has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 09:35:54 DFA's are cool :) 09:37:03 distilled a divisible by 4 DFA down from 100's of states to 4, once I realized the obvious.. 09:37:46 heh 09:38:13 input is decimal, but only the last two binary bits matter (00=divis by 4). so mult by 10 (dec) and add the next digit. transition table is the answer mod 3 09:38:48 I should release my DFA interpreter, but I haven't finished all the JavaDoc comments 10:44:40 -!- calamari_ has quit ("Leaving"). 11:25:01 -!- CXI has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 11:25:45 -!- CXI has joined. 13:57:55 -!- jix has joined. 14:06:29 -!- int-e has left (?). 14:39:27 -!- jix has quit ("Bitte waehlen Sie eine Beerdigungnachricht"). 15:51:19 -!- fungebob has joined. 15:55:18 -!- wildhalcyon has joined. 17:02:21 Does anyone have a copy of the PingPong esolang zip file? 17:02:34 archive.org didn't save it 17:05:43 -!- jix has joined. 17:28:10 -!- int-e has joined. 18:19:35 -!- fungebob has quit ("Chatzilla 0.9.68.5 [Firefox 1.0.6/20050716]"). 18:29:35 -!- fungebob has joined. 19:23:53 -!- ChanServ has quit (Shutting Down). 19:25:31 -!- ChanServ has joined. 19:25:31 -!- irc.freenode.net has set channel mode: +o ChanServ. 19:35:43 I've got a copy of the pingpong zip, I'll email it to graue to put on the wiki file archive 19:36:50 I haven't had time to get to it because I replaced my HD. I've got it though. I'll send it tonight 19:44:30 I've also got the 'Y' .lha file, but I think that's available from the False page anyways, and aside from resembling the Funge-98 Fingerprints, isnt exactly new 19:55:58 -!- Wildhalcyon_ has joined. 19:56:13 -!- Wildhalcyon_ has quit (Client Quit). 20:06:43 -!- wildhalcyon has quit ("leafChat IRC client: http://www.leafdigital.com/Software/leafChat/"). 20:14:05 -!- CXI has quit ("x-chat could use 500 handles, and x-chat could use 500 more"). 20:14:52 -!- CXI has joined. 21:41:32 -!- graue has joined. 21:42:51 something weird is up with the wiki 21:43:05 it just shows a preview when I try to save anything 21:44:11 -!- int-e has left (?). 22:03:20 -!- jix has quit ("Bitte waehlen Sie eine Beerdigungnachricht"). 22:06:27 GregorR: yup, it works on NetBSD. 22:06:41 REALLY?!?!?!? 22:06:48 AHHHH, I ROCK EVEN MORE THAN I THOUGHT I DID! 22:06:52 :P 22:20:21 -!- wildhalcyon has joined. 22:20:38 fungebob? 22:20:46 yo 22:20:48 whats up 22:21:06 You want me to email you pingpong.zip? 22:21:18 oh yea, thatd be great, jim@jimbomania.com 22:21:30 alright 22:21:51 The implementation is less than adequate though 22:24:45 hmm... sent. You should check your mail eventually 22:29:53 Assuming for a second that a tryte (ternary equiv. to byte) is standardized at 3^6 = 729, what kind of characters would you like to see included in a tryte character code? 22:32:14 So far, I have most of the obvious printables from ASCII (anything on the keyboard), the european inflected characters, greek, and a few non-printable (tab, EOF, NULL, etc.) 22:44:46 graue: the wiki seems to work fine for me. just entered some text in the sandbox 22:46:10 btw, what's with the oranges? ;) 22:47:25 well, everyone was complaining about the mediawiki default logo 22:47:53 I never complained. I'd like that on record. 22:47:57 the wiki works fine for me too, now 22:48:00 The oranges are alright, but.. its not much of a logo 22:48:13 I was just wondering whether it had some esoteric symbolism, or if it's just an arbitrary image 22:48:37 I think a nice Rube Goldberg machine would be suitable. 22:48:49 good idea. 22:49:12 though perhaps a bit difficult to fit into such a small space 22:49:17 the oranges are pretty 22:49:29 they taste good too 22:49:51 they do 22:49:58 Do the ones in that picture taste good as well? 22:50:45 they are a bit too pixellated for my taste 22:56:10 hey wildhalcyon , thanks a lot for the zip 22:56:40 -!- fungebob has changed nick to fungebob_away. 23:07:29 anytime fungebob 23:17:38 -!- calamari has joined. 23:18:14 I can substitute limes for the current oranges if anyone would prefer those 23:19:08 hmm. lime might be slightly more esoteric than oranges ;) 23:25:04 What about some kind of melon? 23:25:06 hi graue 23:26:10 graue: did you happen to see the "votes" the other day for change of default wiki style to monobook? 23:26:30 was it called monobook.. 2nd guessing my memory 23:33:51 -!- int-e has joined. 23:35:37 no and yes 23:36:18 wildhalcyon: if you can get me a high-quality, PD melon image, then sure 23:38:04 graue: can't remember the exact day, sorry.. it seems like a popular change, though 23:38:32 you know you can change it in your account, right? 23:40:04 yeah 23:41:04 so who cares what the default is? 23:43:32 oh well, I changed it anyway 23:43:42 sure makes it less obvious whether you're logged in or not 23:45:01 hehe that is true 23:45:08 what the heck is http://www.esolangs.org/wiki/%EB%8C%80%EB%AC%B8 23:45:09 thanks for changing it though :) 23:45:28 graue: there was interest in a Korean wiki 23:45:49 graue: we were investigating a way to do that without having two different wikis 23:45:57 I see 23:45:59 bbl, phone call 23:46:06 -!- calamari has quit ("Leaving"). 23:46:52 kr.esolangs.org? 23:47:42 -!- graue has quit ("."). 23:55:28 -!- kipple has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 23:56:18 -!- calamari has joined. 23:56:41 re's 23:57:00 graue: to answer your question, tohugh.. that's "Main Page" in Korean :) 23:58:00 graue: for what I was seeing, it was possible to have the "Main Page" link go to that Korean page if their language was set to Korean 23:58:12 graue: only an admin can do it, though