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19:45:28 <wildhalcyon> Im thinking of modelling the datatypes after the B language - a single datatype which acts as a 32-bit signed integer OR a 4-byte character string.
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19:46:02 <wildhalcyon> The other alternative is to have each element be an arbitrarily long byte list which can act as an arbitrarily long signed int or a character string
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20:09:08 <grim_> my connection is fucked inside-out and backwards today
20:10:50 <grim_> and the connection from my shell account to freenode is also toilet
20:12:08 <grim_> best give up and try again another time
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21:34:43 <Keymaker> i'm working on a gammaplex demo at the moment
21:34:45 <Wildhalcyon> Hmm, alright. Its pretty much string-oriented
21:35:24 <Keymaker> i should browse the logs to find one piece of info i asked aardwolf about random number..
21:37:11 <Wildhalcyon> Im thinking about ways to use A-Z to serve as landmarks. There aren't any absolute coordinates in my language
21:37:51 <Wildhalcyon> It would be nice to remember where something is after you've... left it.
21:38:41 <Wildhalcyon> I was thinking of the way that Smurf stored variables as any valid string - even the null string.
21:38:49 <Wildhalcyon> So what random number business are you wondering about?
21:40:51 <Keymaker> i'm trying to get a value between 0 and 300
21:42:28 <Keymaker> ..but i guess now i have to wait aardwolf because i can't get it working..
21:52:17 <Wildhalcyon> is there some kind of seeding mechanism that needs to be done... or something?
21:52:54 <Keymaker> can't remember seeing anything in the spec
21:54:03 <Wildhalcyon> It seems like its either the PRNG, the rounding, or the "print integer" functions are failing
21:54:15 <Wildhalcyon> It should be, I mean.. that's what the random number generator is there fore
21:55:00 <Keymaker> well, i guess i can't get really started until aardwolf is here
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22:17:53 <telemakh0s> hey... I'm looking for a language that's easily to generate correct code in... I.e. I'm doing genetic algorithms and need to be able to generate and modify code programmatically...
22:18:37 <Keymaker> that's the closest easy-generatable one that comes to my mind
22:19:16 <telemakh0s> hmm... brainfuck is a bit slow, maybe something with more instructions? i.e. a language that isn't going to require a high program to do anything interesting in...
22:19:57 <Keymaker> brainfuck is fast, but the interpreters aren't optimizing enough ;)
22:20:51 <telemakh0s> with that argument all languages are equally fast, it's just that the compilers aren't equalling optinizing :P
22:21:37 <Keymaker> anyways; many small brainfuck programs do something interesting
22:22:06 <Keymaker> you can naturally made something own language if you have ideas for instructions
22:22:19 <Keymaker> but remember bf has everything needed, and in perfect symmetry
22:24:51 <Keymaker> what are genetic algorithms, anyways?
22:27:21 <telemakh0s> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_algorithms
22:29:47 <int-e> yet another we-don't-know-what-we're-doing-so-let's-just-shoot-in-the-dark-aimlessly-and-hope-we-hit-something-technique.
22:32:00 <telemakh0s> I like to call it the 10000 monkey's approach...
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23:02:26 <Wildhalcyon> I'd check out the article "The Evolutionary Origin of Complex Features" by Richard Lenski et al
23:02:58 <Wildhalcyon> Im having trouble finding a link online, but I have a local pdf copy if you would like me to email it to you
23:03:20 <Wildhalcyon> It details some of the effects on programming language mechanics in digital organisms
23:03:58 <Wildhalcyon> How 'lethal' or deleterious an instruction mutation would be.
23:06:10 <Wildhalcyon> If you're looking at esolangs, simple is good - brainfuck is good, maybe an 'optimized' bf varient that can work with integers instead of ++ and -- and uses a binary gray code
23:08:51 <Wildhalcyon> a false varient (maybe OWL - see BogusForth), or Smurf (small, hard to screw up instruction set) and maybe nooga's SADOL, but I haven't looked at that one enough.
23:10:49 <Wildhalcyon> digital organisms don't work well with GOTO statements in general, but maybe Spaghetti might be interesting?
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23:31:35 <calamari> I was working on a way to stork class files in the wiki
23:31:52 <ihope> Hmm, this is IRC? :-)
23:31:56 <calamari> I can convert them to a 6/7 bit format (html compatible)
23:32:22 <ihope> Heh. I came here to try to write an IRP program.
23:32:55 <calamari> it uses 91 characters, which isn't an even power of two, but I came up with a scheme that if it were in a certain range the output would be 7 bits, otherwise it'd be 6 bits.. which I can decode
23:33:22 <ihope> Ahem: "Everybody, will you all *please* try to act as if intelligent?" ;-)
23:33:34 <calamari> this means the efficiency of my encoding is in between 6 and 7 bits
23:33:58 <Wildhalcyon> IRP: SEGMENTATION FAULT; ERROR ACCESSING REGISTER #INTELLIGENT
23:35:59 <calamari> Wildhalcyon: anyways, the hope is that I'll be able to have actual programs visible in EsoShell, then people could encode their program and copy it on too.. wouldn't have to ask permission, etc
23:36:13 <Wildhalcyon> Hmm, assuming everyone acts politely, I think that there would be a method to define IPR as being TC given an IRC channel with enough people.
23:37:06 <ihope> Oh, uh: just what is EsoShell? :-)
23:37:23 <calamari> ihope: http://esoshell.kidsquid.com/
23:37:45 <calamari> ihope: it allows you to use certain esoteric languages straight from your web browser
23:37:56 <Wildhalcyon> I don't think a bf varient that allows arbitrary-sized integers and negative numbers is TC.
23:38:17 <calamari> it's quite primitive at this point, but I expect that I'll keep improving it
23:39:07 <calamari> wildhalcyon: why not? just don't use the negative numbers
23:39:11 * Sgep is using konq, and can't figure out Java, so I can't really see EsoShell :-(
23:39:46 <calamari> Sgep: does this work? http://www.masswerk.at/jsuix/
23:39:49 <lament> Wildhalcyon: wtf? why wouldn't it be?
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23:41:11 <Sgep> Yes, but that's JavaScript
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23:42:08 <calamari> sgep: what online languages can you use beesides javascript?
23:42:25 <Wildhalcyon> PLUS I was working on my specification, which is hopefully due to be finished this weekend
23:42:43 <Wildhalcyon> I wish notepad had a file restoration feature...
23:43:09 <lament> why are you using notepad
23:44:08 <Wildhalcyon> but the same problem creeps up. Incidentally, this particular computer isn't a big fan of linux. The sound card and my modem don't have linux drivers, making it pretty hard to enjoy
23:45:05 * ihope "dislikes" devices without Linux drivers
23:45:37 <calamari> Wildhalcyon: yeah, not having sound is no fun
23:46:05 <Wildhalcyon> Anyhow, lament - it wouldn't be because you couldn't initialize a cell to 0 without potentially entering an infinite loop, that I know of.
23:46:06 <ihope> Well, NetHack's sounds still work fine on any sound card.
23:46:13 <calamari> have you tried an ubuntu hoary live cd? you might have sound
23:47:32 <calamari> that's why if ou stay in the positive numbers, you should be fine
23:47:35 <Wildhalcyon> sorry,I was assuming the initial value was less than 0.
23:47:53 <ihope> Make it halt on negatives as well, I'd guess?
23:48:10 <calamari> you can do [+] if you're in the negatives
23:48:21 <Wildhalcyon> But there's no way to KNOW whether you're positive or negative
23:48:42 <calamari> I thought it was defined that the memory array was zeroed on start
23:49:39 <ihope> Well, as I said, [-] while negative infinite loops, and [+] while positive infinite loops.
23:49:46 <Wildhalcyon> It doesn't need to be that sufficient. Just that you can't have user input.
23:50:05 <Wildhalcyon> You can have initial values on the tape - you'll know what they are, and hence can program around them.
23:50:18 <Wildhalcyon> You can't do that with nondeterministic user input that could be negative
23:50:19 <calamari> what about a scheme like this: 0 -1 1 -2 2 -3 3 etc.. then you can do [-]
23:50:20 <ihope> How about making + move farther away from zero (up if at zero) and - move closer to zero (down if at zero)?
23:50:50 <Wildhalcyon> That could work too ihope. A little funny on the mathematics, but it could work
23:52:12 <ihope> Or have an infinite loop autodetect thing, but that'd be tricky :-)
23:52:32 <calamari> Wildhalcyon: you irc withotu a chair? :P
23:52:34 <Keymaker> by the way, is one stack enough for turing complete language's memory, if the stack can be reversed?
23:52:55 <Keymaker> you said you stand corrected..
23:53:26 <Keymaker> anyways, did anyone catch my guestion..?
23:53:41 <calamari> it'd be neat to be able to use a single stack
23:54:00 <ihope> I think it'd be sufficient: just have a special value that, when hit, has you reverse the stack?
23:54:00 <Keymaker> i'm planning a new language at the moment
23:54:22 <Wildhalcyon> It's implemented as a circular list - so you can rotate the elements forward and backwards, with stack pushing/popping at the current position in the list.
23:54:36 <ihope> Hmm, sounds cool :-)
23:54:46 <calamari> I'm still trying to determine whether allowing only a single loop is still tc
23:54:51 <Keymaker> it's kinda like wrapping array with stack elements :)
23:54:59 <ihope> You mean not being able to nest them?
23:55:01 <Wildhalcyon> Including dup and swap, and you can rearrange the stack any way you like
23:55:39 <ihope> Pop push push? :-)
23:55:42 <calamari> ihope: yeah.. it'd be a signle loop[ from the end to the start
23:55:57 <Wildhalcyon> dup == duplicates top stack element {a -- a a}
23:56:38 <ihope> Well, if you clone Brainf*** in it, that means it's Turing-complete :-)
23:57:03 <Keymaker> you can have partial bf interpreter in befunge 93 :)
23:57:13 <ihope> If you implement it *perfectly* ;-)
23:57:39 <ihope> Well, yes I think it would be. To make an inner loop, just skip to the end of the outer loop then skip back to the inner one.
23:57:53 <Wildhalcyon> I liked the befunge-93 spec a lot, except for the 80 x 25 definition
23:58:10 <Keymaker> i liked especially the 80x25 definition
23:58:16 <Keymaker> i like the limitations in stuff
23:58:19 <Wildhalcyon> Isn't that how spaghetti does its looping?
23:58:36 <calamari> Wildhalcyon: spagetti eforces a goto after each statement :)
23:58:55 <Wildhalcyon> Right now, my fungeoid's biggest limitation is no jumping.
23:59:17 <calamari> and I think I put in an error if you tried to jump to the next higher line number
23:59:28 <Wildhalcyon> Calamari: I know - it skips to another loop, so there's not really any looping.
23:59:56 <calamari> Wildhalcyon: you could jump 1 2 3 1.. or 1 2 3 2