00:00:07 so there can be multiple loops 00:00:16 1 2 3 2 1? 00:00:33 1 1 2 3 5 8? 00:00:40 ahem. Sorry. 00:00:43 Oh dear. 00:00:53 3.141592653589793238462643383279502884? 00:00:58 NO. 00:01:18 Calamari? What is EsoFunk? 00:01:33 it's a new funk band 00:01:43 we were trying to decide on a bf/befunge hybrid language for the eso os 00:01:50 Heh. If an expansion instruction were added to SMETATA or SMATINY, would that language become Turing-complete? 00:01:52 it kinda fizzled away 00:02:24 although it did inspire bos :) 00:02:30 Calamari: Something like path or snusp? 00:02:43 iHope: expansion instruction? 00:02:44 Hmm, "esos" sounds like a nice name for an esoteric operating system :-) 00:02:47 Wildhalcyon: dunno, I'd have to look at those langs 00:02:57 Yes: Add a new instruction at the end of the program. 00:03:58 For SMETATA, I think it just needs a halting instruction (say, any time it reaches Step 0 or Step -1). 00:04:06 Wildhalcyon: yeah, more like path than snusp I think 00:04:29 Well, does arbitrary memory make anything Turing-complete? 00:04:30 Core SNUSP is my favorite, right now. It just feels.. good. 00:04:31 Wildhalcyon: it wasn't two dimension yet, though 00:04:41 ihope: not necessarily 00:04:49 I mean: arbitrary isn't infinite after all... 00:05:00 ihope: the classical example is a finite automaton coupled with a single stack 00:05:34 the stack is infinite but the automaton can only accept context free grammars, not arbitrary decidable languages. 00:05:43 grammars -> languages 00:05:57 iow, it's not turing complete. 00:06:32 Im having trouble implementing jumping in my fungeoid, trying to decide how to deal with connectivity 00:07:55 int-e: It essentially has a "window" on the stack that cannot grow or shrink, and the top of the window can't move below the top of the stack. 00:08:09 You know, that'd be a great thing to directly put inside a language. 00:11:18 The language will be way too slow if its not easy enough to determine connectivity between two cells 00:12:36 btw, should popping empty stack return 0 or cause an error? 00:12:39 which one is better? 00:12:47 Error, I think... 00:13:06 in a way, yeah 00:13:23 Or just leave whatever you're popping to as it already is. 00:13:34 yeah, that might be good too 00:13:43 aargh, too many choices.. 00:14:09 Heh... 00:14:10 Wildhalcyon: add jump-points and rails. When moving off a jump-point, you follow the rail to its end. I'm not sure what this'll actually do, but it might do something :-) 00:14:49 ihope, right now, I'm just implementing it as a topologically independent instruction. I.E. as far as jumping is concerned, two points are ALWAYS connected 00:15:16 Hmm... sounds good :-) 00:15:49 Some of the earlier ideas I had included wormholes, but the syntax for definining them would be difficult at best, so I dumped them. It still might be possible with the A-Z instructions. 00:20:15 How about jumpwalls, which are jumped over such that you land just after the next jumpwall? 00:21:06 like the ; instruction in befunge? Won't work for my language with the current design. 00:23:11 ...I don't see a ; instruction. 00:24:15 Its in the funge-98 specification 00:24:24 "nothing executed until next semicolon" 00:24:59 Ah :-0 00:25:04 Erm I mean :-) 00:26:02 * ihope wonders where the java console went, and if chatzilla kidnapped it 00:27:00 kidnaps chatzilla 00:27:59 Thanks.... except I still can't find the Java console... 00:28:44 I'm retyping out the mini-spec on the topological spaces. I'll post the link when I finish it and upload it 00:31:57 * ihope javaconsoles himself 00:32:14 -!- ihope has quit (Remote closed the connection). 00:32:20 ha! 00:32:26 solved one problem i had.. 00:32:35 ha! 00:32:40 what was that? 00:32:49 it was in this language design 00:33:02 i don't want to tell, because that would reveal about the language 00:33:20 hmmm. That in itself is a clue. 00:33:27 d'oh! 00:33:29 :) 00:33:56 -!- ihope has joined. 00:34:03 ouch 00:34:07 now the secret is out 00:34:12 hehe 00:34:37 Secret? :-o 00:34:50 shhh 00:35:21 exactly 00:35:49 * ihope wonders whether this is a coincidence or a minor prank :-) 00:36:20 :) 00:36:55 it's just a coincidence, don't worry 00:36:59 * ihope does a minor wtf at this website 00:37:00 it doesn't concern you anyway 00:37:06 not like we would tell you if it did 00:37:06 :-) 00:37:13 s/anyway/in any way 00:38:06 if i were you, i'd just pretend nothing happened 00:38:49 Okay. /me listens to the crickets chirping instead ;-) 00:40:08 -!- ihope has quit ("Chatzilla 0.9.68.5 [Firefox 1.0.6/20050716]"). 00:40:17 Hmm 00:41:04 http://www4.ncsu.edu/~bcthomp2/colorspaces.txt anyone have any comments for me? 00:42:05 -!- ihope has joined. 00:42:38 (shhhh) 00:43:17 (argh: yes, I'll use a verticon) o_o 00:43:43 You too ihope 00:43:50 cool, a sinhgle loop seems fine.. implemented bf 00:44:25 I may be able to use a single switch statement too (no if's) 00:44:54 ...Okay: how do I get EsoShell to work? :-) 00:46:31 ihope, just go here.. it should work http://esoshell.kidsquid.com/ 00:46:37 You crazy fool calamari!! muahahahhahaaaaaaa 00:46:44 * Sgep got Java to work under FF 00:46:52 FF? 00:46:56 FireFox 00:47:20 Start: applet not initialized. 00:49:00 oh, yay 00:49:14 ihope: that usually means you're using ie 00:49:16 Im using esoshell in FF 00:49:41 ...But I'm not :-) 00:49:41 I didn't get EsoShell to work in FF though 00:49:55 This is Mac OS X... should I try Safari? 00:50:34 ihope: it uses java 1.4.. wonder what version os x comes with 00:51:48 Aha. Firefox only recognizes 1.3.1. 00:52:11 i should cut back then 00:52:23 i can probably make do with 1.2 functions 00:52:39 Well, it might work in Safari... 00:53:40 I tried making a 1.1 compliant awt version but it was horrible 00:54:34 no idea how that guy did it in javascript.. 00:54:53 Bleh. DNS borked 00:55:15 Javascript? 00:55:16 Hmm, I should probably remove my WIP from the wiki page since I dont have anyone to be collaborative on it with. 00:55:43 ihope: http://www.masswerk.at/jsuix/ 00:56:10 ihope: something similar in javascript.. not free though 00:56:55 one adanvatage to the way he is doing it is that you don't actually have a real cursor.. maybe I should do that too 00:59:52 Cute. CRITICAL ERROR: The file exists! 01:01:40 ihope: that's a cool language, by Keymaker :) 01:02:05 ? 01:02:06 btw Keymaker, what's your real name so I can give you better credit 01:02:13 (for unnecessary) 01:02:16 what language 01:02:17 ah 01:02:22 nice that you like it 01:03:11 oh, and you can find the real name from friends-of-brainfuck list 01:03:53 Uh, how do I *create* a file in EsoShell? :-) 01:04:20 ihope echo "whatever" > filename 01:04:29 Aha 01:04:38 wah! is f-o-bf down?! 01:05:55 .drawkcab gniphce tsuj s'taC .raed hO 01:06:01 How do I exit? :-) 01:06:06 I searched my mail for "keymaker" but found nothing :) 01:06:30 well, i'll e-mail the name for you then.. 01:08:47 ok, done 01:08:51 Anyone get a chance to look at the file link I posted above? 01:08:57 yes 01:09:22 Any comments or profanity for me? 01:09:41 ...What file? :-) 01:09:52 If you like, you can right a f*ckf*ck program that prints the comments out for me? 01:10:14 http://www4.ncsu.edu/~bcthomp2/colorspaces.txt 01:10:18 ihope: that file 01:13:04 -!- int-e has left (?). 01:13:21 Argh: EsoShell just sorta conked out. 01:13:43 keymaker: cool, thanks.. now I can give you proper credit :) 01:13:57 ihope: what were you doing? 01:14:13 btw, credit.. where? :) 01:14:31 Keymaker: there is an unnecessary interpreter in esoshell 01:14:37 ah, cool! 01:14:40 gotta try 01:15:07 I wrote it from scratch, but used the error messages out of your original 01:15:36 Oh, uh, I wondered just what "mount" did, then played around with cat... 01:16:59 ihope: do you remember what mount command you tried? I'd like to fix any bugs :) 01:17:16 "mount wiki README" :-) 01:17:41 hehe, nice. unnecessary interpreter itself is easy, but can't think of an esolang where unnecessary interpreter could be written.. 01:17:56 What esolangs open files? 01:18:14 i know none that could open files 01:18:24 funge 98 can 01:18:27 Make brainf*** able to open files. 01:18:42 -!- calamari_ has joined. 01:18:46 well, preferably not 01:18:54 re's 01:19:00 Why not? :-) 01:19:09 files are useless! 01:19:25 numberix can open files 01:19:29 PESOIX? 01:19:33 <-- new 01:19:49 Nah, just stick all the files in one big chuck in negative memory. 01:20:01 hehe 01:20:18 Well, you'd need an actual filesystem of course :-) 01:20:47 ihope: weird.. I did did that mount and it worked fine 01:21:18 then I did `cat "abc" > wiki:a' 01:21:24 use braintwist - put the files in the data array, and move to the files using the code array 01:22:06 for the last time, i don't want to open files! aaargh lol 01:22:09 Is there a brainf*** interpreter that works with PESOIX? 01:22:33 Well, it wasn't the mount... I think. The applet just failed to load. 01:22:42 ihope: weird 01:22:50 But its not opening files... its just... manipulating the data space. Hmm.. might be a project I look into... 01:23:37 http://jonripley.com/easel/api.txt 01:23:43 ihope: if a program freezes you can try ctrl-c 01:24:09 sgep: bos implements esoapi 1.0, but not the full pesoix 01:24:20 Hmm... okay :-) 01:24:52 i have a lot of hacks in there.. need to take them out and use real stuff like signals, I know 01:25:33 How does one make an API call? 01:25:45 it started out as a shell, and it's getting more and more like an os, so I need to rework a lot of stuff with it 01:25:51 ihope: in esoapi? 01:26:01 ...Yeah :-) 01:26:11 output 00 (nul) 01:26:20 Ah 01:26:33 then the next char is the function 01:26:37 Wait... is output a comma or a period? 01:26:45 period 01:26:50 . 01:26:56 :-) 01:27:36 Okay; my Macintosh skills are limited. I'll run over to Windows... 01:27:42 -!- ihope has quit ("Chatzilla 0.9.68.5 [Firefox 1.0.6/20050716]"). 01:31:31 I wonder if I could make something that is lynx compatible :) 01:36:21 -!- calamari has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 01:39:00 -!- calamari_ has changed nick to calamari. 01:42:11 gentlemen, which one looks better: 01:42:11 ) 01:42:11 ()()()() 01:42:11 (((()))) 01:42:12 ( 01:42:14 or 01:42:18 ( 01:42:18 )()()()( 01:42:20 ))))(((( 01:42:22 ) 01:42:30 As far as...? 01:42:37 ? 01:42:48 it's the language i'm designing 01:42:53 i like the first better 01:42:58 I do too, I think 01:43:02 Is that the name of the language? 01:43:11 no 01:43:13 that's code 01:43:15 lol 01:43:18 Hmm. Still evil. 01:43:41 i'll posts specs probably later today 01:43:54 but since i revealed this much i can tell a bit; 01:44:05 ) and ( are used as loops, the brainfuck way 01:44:26 the memory is a stack, that is accessible the brainfuck way 01:44:44 like one can increase and decrease the current value of stack 01:44:47 the topmost value 01:45:08 the instructions are selected by pattern of () 01:45:16 like for example ((((())))) 01:45:23 mmkay 01:45:26 but i haven't yet selected all of them 01:47:35 oh, wait.. 01:47:50 i may have another design idea for this, gotta think 01:48:43 Good luck ;-) 01:58:09 Wildhalcyon: I'd love a copy of that article... I can't find it online either 01:58:26 Whats your email telemakh0s? 01:59:14 Also, can you point me to a link to OWL? 01:59:23 twobitsprite@gmail.com 02:00:41 Sent 02:00:47 awesome, thanks 02:00:59 http://it.geocities.com/tonibin/ 02:01:34 which one is used usually more, push or pop? 02:01:59 I'd say push 02:02:06 ok 02:02:21 Keymaker: I would imagine they would be used about equally, unless you either plan on abandonning things at the bottom of the stack, or trying to top things from an empty stack... 02:02:34 s/top/pop/ 02:02:38 hmm 02:02:38 push(a) push(b) add pop(c) 02:02:46 -!- heatsink has joined. 02:02:55 see how you use one less pop for each push in this case? 02:03:20 Plus, many languages pop an operation as a side effect of their main purpose, such as output 02:03:21 Wildhalcyon: ahh... but things are still popped, the pop is just implied in the "add" 02:03:35 hmm 02:03:40 no? 02:03:51 (just thinking..) 02:04:05 That's correct, but I assumed he meant simple popping 02:04:22 but I can see your point 02:04:50 If you're dealing with a language which has registers and a stack, you need to push and pop to/from the stack and the register to do ANYTHING with the values 02:04:58 so you WILL be pushing and popping just about equally 02:05:05 so I guess you meant in terms of which ones a programmer would explicitly use, in which case push definately... 02:05:11 exactly 02:05:48 I wonder if kemaker is trying to make a bf with a stack... 02:06:01 s/ke/key 02:06:11 nope 02:06:18 that isn't my purpose 02:06:41 Oh, darn, that would have been interesting 02:07:09 one problem with bf as a language for use in G/A, is that you have to ensure that [] are matched and that you don't have more <'s than you do >'s... 02:07:40 unless you just ignore unmatced braces and assume the "tape" wraps arround... 02:07:41 Right, but that can just be considered a lethal mutation 02:08:23 The number of mutations that can cause unmatched [] is small with respect to the total number of mutations 02:08:31 true..., but if you only have 8 possible states for each element of the program, and each state is equally probable, you'll end up with a _lot_ of fatal mutations... 02:09:15 well... if you mutate a single atom of the program, you have a 1/4 chance of it being either [ or ]... 02:09:27 Hmm, good point 02:09:46 I hadn't really thought of that 02:10:03 And BF has a LOT of [ and ] 02:10:38 yes, in fact you argue that [ and ] are the two most important instructions, as they provide for branching... 02:10:49 you ^could^ argue 02:10:56 I wouldn't disagree 02:11:18 but it doesnt mean they aren't mutable 02:11:47 I'm not saying that... I'm just trying to figure out a way to mutate them, with out it resulting in mostly fatal mutations 02:11:49 Since the language isn't rewritable, you always know which [ goes to which ], which is equivalent to knowing how long your loop is 02:12:09 You can either A) make mutating your braces VERY unlikely 02:12:27 or B) remove the braces and replace them with "skip n" instructions 02:12:29 or make it so that mutatin one brace causes the matching one to mutate? 02:12:43 hmm, hadn't thought of that either 02:12:58 I don't think "skip n" would work, because you have to be able to "skipback n" too... 02:13:16 not if you implement the language with a function stack 02:13:36 you have a counter that counts to n, then goes back, counts to n, then goes back 02:14:28 -!- CXI has joined. 02:15:24 The problem is that n needs to be unbounded 02:18:18 well... n would be bounded "to the end of the program" 02:18:37 What I meant is you can't set a default to the maximum size of a loop 02:19:35 There's a string-matching idea in the paper too, for dealing with goto-less loops (which is inherantly what a brace-matching mechanism is) 02:23:04 Im wrestling with whether or not to include my color definition in my esolang. 02:24:27 If I dont, everything is one big topological space. I can use an operator such as # to say "STOP, wrap here" and everything works fine. 02:25:54 mh.. it's suddenly 4 am again.. 02:26:00 better get to bed.. 02:26:05 good "night" 02:26:08 I love when time plays tricks 02:26:13 heh 02:26:17 bye 02:26:19 -!- Keymaker has quit ("This quote is unrelated to this context."). 02:26:28 g'night.. look forward to seeing a finished product soon 02:26:33 Well shoot. He left 03:26:13 ASCII is an abomination 03:34:59 Would it be safe to say that Network-Headache doesn't have an implementation? 03:35:19 I dont think it does 03:44:20 -!- kipple has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 04:13:23 anybody still up? 04:19:53 * heatsink is 04:21:36 Feel like looking at a confusing half-written spec for me? 04:29:31 http://www4.ncsu.edu/~bcthomp2/alt_spec.txt 04:48:15 It's worth noting that UTF-8 is compatible with ASCII characters 32-127 04:52:01 I know, that's what I was getting at with Unicode being based on ASCII 04:56:20 I suggest adding, after the "Stack Elements" section, a description of the stack, which is the other datatype for your language. 04:56:42 Also, what happens on an access to an invalid stack location or pop of an empty stack. 04:56:44 Oh, I probably should. The stack is pretty novel, as far as stack-based esolangs are concerns 04:57:36 Oh, balanced ternary, cool 04:58:02 I invented an esoteric non-programming language which had balanced base-6 numbers :) 04:58:21 I didn't know there was a name for it 04:58:42 really? that's gotta be pretty cool. I've been a big fan of balanced ternary. 04:59:01 I even wanted to write a bf varient that used it, called trittyfuck. 04:59:06 LOL 04:59:27 But bf is base-independent 05:00:21 It might be possible if each data cell is a balanced ternary digit 05:03:14 I can't think of a way in which the use of balanced ternary would actually change the behavior of bf. 05:03:23 it really wouldn't 05:03:30 hence my lack of creating a language as such 05:04:03 If you try to pop an element from an empty stack, it pops a null string. I think that's the most esoteric approach. 05:04:25 Except for maybe popping the string "ribbit", which would be pretty crazy too. 05:04:58 It would be more esoteric to make pop-from-empty-stack read from stdin :) 05:05:13 that would be pretty crazy too, you're right 05:05:26 Okay. So the starting state of the stack is an infinite stack of the empty string. 05:05:35 Yes, exactly. 05:07:28 Except that those aren't rotated when the stack is rotated 05:07:47 Oh, I didn't notice the stack rotation functions. 05:08:16 That kinda cuts down the beauty of it. 05:08:20 They rotate the entire stack forward/backward, so it acts as a circularly linked list 05:08:22 Perhaps, yes. 05:09:43 I still think its beautiful though 05:10:58 What does this do? 05:11:06 v{abc}@ 05:11:11 > ^ 05:11:39 enters an infinite loop of pushing a's (10) onto the stack. 05:11:44 ok 05:12:05 how about the single character } 05:12:23 I should probably specify that all sides of the program have an implicit # associated with them. 05:12:41 ok 05:12:47 I've been debating that. Im thinking that { and } should be interchangable, so {abc} is the same as }abc{ 05:13:21 which would be the same as {abc{ and }abc} 05:13:43 If you traverse {abc} backwards, does it push cba? 05:14:11 yes. It should. 05:14:18 I think. I'd rather not have it produce an error 05:14:49 -!- Sgep has quit (Remote closed the connection). 05:16:56 If you refresh, you'll see the updated spec that reflects the helpful comments and suggestions that you've given me :-) Thank you 05:18:01 np 05:19:15 Any other suggestions you've got? 05:19:53 I was originally very keen on color spaces, but the string manipulation is a lot more fun and different - like a 2D muriel language :-) 05:20:41 It's not clear to me what happens when a number is interpreted as a string or vice versa 05:21:08 Hmm, okay. That's probably something I need to be more explicit on then 05:22:27 Basically, if you're performing any sort of arithmetic on it, its a number (because it doesnt make sense to add or multiply characters). If you're concatenating, outputting, etc. its a character string. 05:23:07 in other words, its only a string if the command manipulates bytes 05:25:01 But is it a number in ascii base-10 notation, or in binary base-32 notation, or what? 05:25:49 Also, are leading zeros stripped, and are numbers right-justified? 05:26:16 leading zeros are not stripped. The numbers are right-justified however. I commented on the leading zeros portion already 05:26:20 even wrote an example program for removing them. 05:27:18 So, if I subtract 100 from 100 I will get 000. 05:27:25 yes 05:27:38 and it uses the binary representation of the character string 05:28:35 -!- Arrogant has joined. 05:28:46 so "abc" is 97*256^2+98*256+99 05:28:48 okay, so all numbers will print as a sequence of the character # 05:28:55 oh 05:29:06 That's base 256, not base 2 05:29:29 You're right, sorry 05:29:45 the logic functions uses bits though 05:30:22 It makes a difference because unicode doesn't specify the number of bytes a character occupies. 05:30:50 If the internal representation were UTF-32 you might expect a base 2**32 interpretation of numbers. 05:32:02 I mentioned the characters occupying a byte of space, but after reading the paragraph, it is unclear. 05:33:28 Again, this isn't the official spec, just a sort of.. sandbox spec I guess you could say 05:33:41 Looking at how all the pieces fit together before I carve it in stone and write an implementation 05:33:55 Good way to do it. 05:34:26 Anyhow, that's where my desire to remove ASCII from the picture stems. So many ASCII characters are not printable.. I don't see a reason for including them in the language specification. 05:36:11 I think its looking pretty good now. I'll try to polish the spec and see how it looks tomorrow, but I won't have time to write up a spec this week. I've promised my professor that I'd have my research program running by Friday, so I'll be pretty exhausted doing that. 05:37:36 you're doing this for CLASS?! 05:37:52 oh. You're writing a different program for class. 05:38:09 yeah, different (in C) 05:38:13 yea okies :) 05:38:38 I actually thought about doing an esolang for my research, but.. I dont know that the dept. would have let it in 05:38:55 Its more computer science than biomedical engineering 05:39:12 what will your reasearch program do? 05:39:58 run a monte carlo simulation on a 3D piece of tissue 05:40:53 Its for an optical imaging system. I'll need to model the system, then reconstruct the output for a variety of systems 05:42:03 -!- calamari_ has joined. 05:42:26 hey calamari 05:43:14 -!- calamari has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 05:44:32 This system you are modeling -- is this to test the design before building it? 05:45:06 Mostly 05:45:36 There's been some preliminary work to suggest that the system should work fairly well 05:46:13 part of the goal is to be able to use the system model in the design of the tissue. 05:46:46 How do you make tissue? 05:47:01 I don't, and Im not entirely sure how they're doing it either. 05:47:13 I think they're stimulating embryonic stem cells.. 05:47:42 or maybe non-embryonic stem cells 05:52:28 What kidn of tissue are they trying to make? 05:53:45 tendons right now. Future projects might be aimed more at detecting cancerous tissues embedded in other tissues (such as liver) 05:54:37 Cool. What does surgery currently do for severed or damaged tendons? 05:54:43 They use a flourescent marker, which is what we're trying to detect. 05:55:36 I think they try to stretch them to get them to regrow and reconnect 05:55:47 ok 05:56:14 These are pretty much entirely artificial tendons though, which makes me think that the stretching business doesnt work that great. 05:58:09 If tendons could stretch, they wouldn't be very useful. 05:58:59 -!- Wildhalcyon has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 05:59:08 oh, um bye 06:00:21 -!- Wildhalcyon has joined. 06:01:34 -!- calamari_ has quit ("Leaving"). 06:06:08 wb 06:07:57 thanks. Firefox errored out on me 06:28:18 anyhow, Im off to bed, thank you very much heatsink!! 06:28:34 okay, night-o 06:28:54 -!- Wildhalcyon has quit ("Chatzilla 0.9.68.5.1 [Firefox 1.0.6/20050716]"). 06:37:55 * Arrogant is playing with his expandable Brainfuck 06:50:03 -!- heatsink has quit ("Leaving"). 07:37:07 -!- calamari has joined. 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 09:05:22 -!- nooga has joined. 09:05:27 hello 09:12:37 hi nooga 09:16:08 hi calamari 09:29:48 Sup. 09:36:03 http://paragon.pastebin.com/366910 09:37:13 Condensed: {fibo:(~=)->+>+<<[>>%>*<<[->+<]>>%<<*<-]>},{fibo}! 09:39:43 -!- calamari_ has joined. 09:40:41