00:05:45 <Wildhalcyon> Glypho Fibonacci number generator: 11#[>>d<d>+<\<1-+] (Where # is a stack element that is set to the number of terms to generate)
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04:14:51 <Sgep> Be back tomorrow
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07:16:49 <Arrogant> Adding a stack to this thing was a great success
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13:25:10 <jix> np: Kyuss - Supa Scoopa and Mighty Scoop [ Welcome To Sky Valley ]
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15:39:41 <ihope> There, I just executed an IRP instruction: NOP
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17:12:32 <Wildhalcyon> The previous incarnation of Glypho was too tarpit for me, Ive had to make some changes. I might be making some additional ones soon as well.
17:18:27 <grim_> wh: which one are you talking about?
17:18:35 <grim_> the [...] braces one?
17:18:43 <grim_> or the one before?
17:19:57 <Wildhalcyon> I've thought about modifying the arithmetic to be more "brainfuckish" - push-1 becomes push-0, add becomes increment, negate becomes decrement.. and multiply disappears (leaving me with an additional instruction)
17:20:23 <jix> that's too brainfuckish imo
17:20:48 <kipple> that was a response to WildHalcyon, not jix, btw
17:21:20 <Wildhalcyon> It also makes more sense from the point of view of the "push" function - pushing an empty cell, ready to accept input
17:21:32 <jix> Wildhalcyon: no you can create every number in the form 2^a+2^b+2^c => 1d+d+d+...1d+d+d+...1d+d+d+..+++...
17:22:44 <Wildhalcyon> I suppose that is easier than the BF "add til' you get there" number functions
17:23:07 <Wildhalcyon> Jix, did you read about the reasoning behind adding the brackets?
17:23:51 <kipple> I think the brackets are good. The main brainburner will be having only a stack anyways
17:24:01 <grim_> you can already do bf-ish 111111+++++
17:25:42 <Wildhalcyon> I think you can also perform BF multiplication by doing 111++-1>[<11++>1+] which should multiply 2*3?
17:26:46 <grim_> yes, where is the problem?
17:27:24 <Wildhalcyon> I don't know, really. Im being wishy-washy I suppose. Glypho is good, I am happy with its creation
17:27:49 <Wildhalcyon> Next step is to create a program that takes glypho "shorthand" and converts it to a symbol string
17:28:22 <Wildhalcyon> preferably not just a static aabbabbaabcaabab etc. but one that used multiple symbols from an alphabetic set
17:29:34 <grim_> shouldn't be hard either
17:29:51 <grim_> but I've work to do :(
17:29:56 <kipple> btwm shouldn't the [ and ] patterns be opposites?
17:30:06 <Wildhalcyon> not really, not with a decent PRNG, and I have work to do this week too
17:30:35 <Wildhalcyon> I only swapped out "skip" and "test" with "[" and "]"
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17:37:20 <Wildhalcyon> and I've written a few example functions - fibonacci and cat
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17:39:24 <kipple> cat is nice and short :)
17:39:36 <Wildhalcyon> and aside from swapping symbols with bf, its identical
17:40:42 <kipple> what happens if you start a program with a [ ?
17:41:11 <jix> if it pops.. yes
17:41:31 <jix> how does [ work exactly ?
17:41:31 <kipple> [ doesn't pop, I think. only peek
17:41:47 <jix> ok.. if it peeks a negative value does it loop forever?
17:41:59 <kipple> but what happens when you pop or peek at an empty stack?
17:46:22 <kipple> hehe. sure. just couldn't find anything about it in the spec...
17:46:55 <kipple> ah. found it. but it says it is NOT an error
17:47:20 <kipple> jix: "popping from an empty stack is a NOP"
17:47:46 * Wildhalcyon was unfortunately tired and ambiguous last night during the creation of Glypho
17:48:21 <kipple> now that you have an instruction that peeks, it is even more unclear :D
17:49:50 <kipple> the simple solution is of course to invoke the old "undefined behavior"
17:50:59 <Wildhalcyon> ah... ambiguous behavior wrapped inside a wonderful ambiguous statement
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17:53:53 <Wildhalcyon> "Any actions which pop or otherwise manipulate the stack while it is empty have an undefined behavior and should be frowned upon at all times"
17:54:56 <Wildhalcyon> I wonder how trivial it is to prove that this language is TC...
17:55:35 <kipple> hmm. manipulating the stack would include pushing... and you'll want to push to an ampty stack ;)
17:55:52 <lindi-> Wildhalcyon: relatively trivial, just show that you can emulate a turing machine
17:57:37 <Wildhalcyon> That's what I thought lindi. I think I can emulate one, I just have to demonstrate it. I've proved it can loop, I guess I should prove it can have an arbitrary-length tape
17:58:54 <lindi-> Wildhalcyon: that's actually depends on how you define turing completeness. if you absolutely require infinite tape then very few languages support that
17:59:23 <Wildhalcyon> Well, TC never said inifinite tape - just long enough to do whatever job you wanted to do with it.
17:59:41 <lindi-> i thought it said infinite tape, wait a sec. i'll check
17:59:41 <kipple> strictly speaking TC requires an infinite tape
17:59:59 <kipple> I think the definition of a Turing machine includes an infinite tape
18:00:04 <Wildhalcyon> I was under the assumption that TC just required a tape that could be ANY length
18:00:19 <lindi-> indeed. in computability theory sense
18:00:22 <kipple> but the stack in Glyph is infinite, so I don't think that's a problem
18:00:36 <lindi-> "While such machines may be physically impossible as they require unlimited storage, Turing completeness is often loosely attributed to physical machines or programming languages that would be universal if they had indefinitely enlargeable storage. "
18:00:43 <Wildhalcyon> in fact, any task which REQUIRES infinite tape is not computable on a turing machine
18:00:43 <lindi-> kipple: stack isn't a tape
18:01:08 <Wildhalcyon> lindi, my stack can be modeled as a piece of tape with the ends tied together
18:01:08 <lindi-> so, you can still make it "loosely TC"
18:01:18 <lindi-> that's not stack anymore then
18:01:34 <Wildhalcyon> Well then, no. Its not a stack. Its a circular linked list
18:01:48 <Wildhalcyon> But pushing and popping are done on a stack-like basis
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18:02:05 <lindi-> Wildhalcyon: is the spec online somewhere?
18:02:14 <Wildhalcyon> The fact that sometimes it enqueues its head onto its tail is... crazy
18:02:59 <Wildhalcyon> I think I'll nickname the stack-list monstrosity as "ouroborous" (sp?) since it eats its own tail
18:05:03 <Wildhalcyon> Some people Ive shown it to have trouble understanding how the symbols within the instructions work. I've had trouble explaining it.
18:05:48 <grim_> what have they found difficult? the whole context-free wxyz thing?
18:06:00 <kipple> I had some troubles with it myself at first :)
18:06:21 <Wildhalcyon> Mostly the fact that the "a" for instruction 1 does not necessarily equal the "a" for any other instruction
18:06:52 <kipple> you might want to use other symbols than letters
18:07:03 <kipple> though I'm not sure which
18:07:10 <lindi-> Wildhalcyon: in fact, i'm not sure if glypho is tc or not
18:08:38 <Wildhalcyon> We'll find out. I'll work on trying to implement bf instructions in it
18:09:25 <grim_> it seems to me that you can get TC-ness with a couple of bits of string and some PVA glue these days
18:10:06 <Wildhalcyon> tell me about it grim. I'll be pretty peeved if wang tiles can out-TC my glypho language
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18:47:17 <Wildhalcyon> Hmm, I can't find the sequence {1,2,5,15,50...} in the integer sequence database
18:47:58 <Wildhalcyon> Although its possible I counted wrong on n=6 :-(
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19:11:14 <Wildhalcyon> "Word structures of length n using a 6-ary alphabet. Permuting the alphabet will not change a word structure. Thus aabc and bbca have the same structure."
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19:12:45 <kipple> are you having an identity crisis today jix? ;)
19:13:54 <jix> no... a bad network connection
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20:19:50 * jix is going to continue coding his homepage
20:26:15 <jix> np: Metallica - Am I Evil (bonus track) [ Kill 'Em All ]
20:30:00 <jix> am i evil -- yes i am ..
20:42:04 <jix> np: Metallica - Anesthesia (Pulling Teeth) [ Kill 'Em All ]
20:53:49 <kipple> hmm. is there an esolang based on pirate lingo? http://ldc.upenn.edu/myl/llog/piratekeyboard.jpg
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22:38:14 <grim_> 18:35 < Wildhalcyon> Hmm, I can't find the sequence {1,2,5,15,50...} in the integer sequence database
22:38:29 <grim_> there's an integer sequence database?
22:43:18 <Sgep> Any comments on http://esolangs.org/wiki/User:Sgeo/binbf
22:45:30 * Sgep goes to clarify something
22:58:33 <grim_> do you have an implementation?
23:12:24 * Sgep might write an implementation right up to the point before the Huffman encoding is actually done
23:12:29 <Sgep> Not now though