00:25:19 <kipple> ha! it actually worked :D
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04:22:20 <GregorR> That was some tasty imitation Chinese food.
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13:47:18 <jix> hey wildhalcyon
13:48:13 <wildhalcyon> I miss my computer. :-( without internet, its a cheap screensaver
13:48:43 <jix> i have a cold
13:49:37 <jix> yes.. it does
13:49:43 <wildhalcyon> Im putting off studying for my midterm in 45 minutes :-D
13:52:28 <wildhalcyon> mostly because I actually HAVE internet while Im in my lab on campus
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13:53:37 <wildhalcyon> jix: Kipple and I were having some issues with a symbol-wise reverse operator. I'm thinking that its a fairly useless appendage instruction that could be better replaced by something more powerful (read: esoteric)
13:54:22 <jix> hmm what's the latest glypho spec?
13:55:30 <wildhalcyon> It hasn't changed since adding the brackets
13:55:47 <jix> my interpreter is out of date...
13:55:55 <wildhalcyon> But we were looking at implementing it, and he wanted an example of a program that uses reverse, and I didn't have one
13:56:14 <wildhalcyon> I know, and its not your fault jix, its my fault, me and my indecisiveness
13:57:19 <jix> maybe add a gcd operation
13:57:45 <jix> that makes implementing of rational numbers easier
13:59:52 <wildhalcyon> No division operation, mind you, just modulo
14:00:18 <jix> modulu is easy to implement with test and sub
14:02:07 <jix> gcd is easy too
14:02:14 <jix> hmmm COSine!
14:02:25 <jix> cos(x)*10000
14:03:12 <jix> cos(x)*(2^32-1)
14:03:48 <jix> cos(x)*(2^32-0.5)-0.5 ?
14:05:16 <jix> why not e?
14:05:20 <wildhalcyon> filling in a needless extra instruction is hard!
14:05:39 <jix> 1/2*(e^ix+e^-ix)
14:06:12 <jix> 1/2*(e^x+e^-x)
14:07:26 <wildhalcyon> What about replacing n with Bn, where Bn is the nth Bell Number (related to the symbol-less encoding Im using)
14:07:34 <wildhalcyon> except that they grow very large very quickly
15:14:36 <kipple> I think a random function would be nice. That's something that can't be done with the current set
15:15:41 <kipple> something like: random: pops two values from the stack and pushes a random number in the range specified by the two popped values
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16:12:17 <wildhalcyon> kipple: all you would need to do is pop one variable for the size of the range, and then add the minimum to the size
16:13:26 <wildhalcyon> rngs are nice, but it leaves open the possibility of someone implementing the instruction in an incredibly stupid manner. Plus, it would be the only non-deterministic instruction in the whole set
16:14:54 <wildhalcyon> We'll see. I'm going to go home and find out if I have internet again (or if I'll ever have internet again, ever.)
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17:14:58 <jix> moin nooga, Keymaker
17:15:12 <Keymaker> (or actually it's 19 pm here but who cares..)
17:15:52 <Keymaker> i always use am and pm with the format that doesn't use them :)
17:16:12 <nooga> it's more natural for me
17:16:26 <Keymaker> but i still add am and pm there for some reason :)
17:16:34 <Keymaker> but well, my days are 48 hours ;)
17:17:24 <jix> 18:16 here
17:17:59 <jix> 18:17:01<jix>18:16 here
17:18:56 <nooga> now i'm thinkin' about my new language - o-o
17:19:12 <nooga> here's what i've got for now: http://agentj.kewlnet.int.pl/wysypisko/uploads/oo.txt
17:20:02 <nooga> it's more like: o<link>o
17:20:47 <nooga> what? i can see only some werid signs...
17:20:57 <jix> i'm using utf8
17:21:26 <jix> it was o—o
17:22:59 <jix> lol in ndash has the same length as n but mdash is too large
17:23:11 <jix> in lucida grande it's the other way around
17:23:48 <nooga> i think that each node in o-o should have additional stack for internal use
17:35:32 <nooga> i've got tolearn ruby
17:37:33 <nooga> from those interpreted langs i know perl, python a bit, and PHP
17:37:40 <jix> q: what does if 0;puts "Hello";end in ruby
17:38:12 <nooga> a: prints "Hello"?
17:39:00 <jix> everything except nil and false evaluates to true in conditions
17:39:23 <jix> and everything (including nil) is an object
17:42:01 <jix> classes are objects too
17:42:40 <jix> and the Class object is an instance of itself
17:43:17 <jix> Keymaker: no... print is like echo
17:43:31 <jix> puts "Hello" == puts "Hello\n"
17:43:44 <jix> puts checks for a \n at the end of a string and if it is missing it appends one
17:44:28 <jix> replace ; with \n (ruby needs no ; only if you put more than 1 lines on one line)
17:45:11 <jix> it's like if(0)printf("Hello\n"); in c (with the difference that in c 0 == false in ruby 0 (in conditions) == true)
17:47:29 <twobitsprite> is Ruby one of those langauges which have only one false value, i.e. "False"?
17:47:40 <jix> no false and nil
17:53:18 <jix> if you want to check a number for zero just use if bla.zero?
18:17:32 <twobitsprite> is it possible to have a turing complete prorgamming language where & is the only operation?
18:18:16 <twobitsprite> what if I added a stack, and made & a stack function?
18:19:12 <Keymaker> not sure. as far as i know there must be way to move back or jump some part in the program. as well as access memory other than single stack
18:20:06 <Keymaker> ..but limited languages are interesting, so go ahead and try :D
18:21:13 <Keymaker> it can be often(?) that languages that aren't planned to be turing-complete happen to be (or vice versa)
18:21:15 <jix> you need ~(a & b) (nand) for turing completeness and ram and conditional or computed code jumps
18:33:01 <Keymaker> hmmm, i wonder if i should add two stacks to my language, to make sure it is turing-complete. i'm really not sure at all if reversing the stack instruction will make it suitable for being tc
18:36:25 <Keymaker> or well, i'll try first making programs with only one reversible stack and see if the other is necessary.
18:37:10 <Keymaker> jix: would you have time to write another interpreter ;) (in c if possible)
18:39:21 <Keymaker> i think i'll need to do changes again..
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19:12:23 <twobitsprite> would an implicit loop work to replace being able to jump in the code?
19:19:38 <nooga> what do you guys think about o-o?
19:19:45 <nooga> in it's current shape?
19:20:21 <nooga> http://agentj.kewlnet.int.pl/wysypisko/uploads/oo.txt
19:20:55 <twobitsprite> well.. first off, you need some line-breaks in your web-page
19:21:19 <nooga> eh, it's a txt file
19:21:25 <nooga> but if you really want...
19:21:40 <kipple> some browsers (like mine) doesn't wrap lines in txt files :(
19:28:33 <nooga> nooga.kewlnet.int.pl/oo.html
19:28:37 <nooga> http://nooga.kewlnet.int.pl/oo.html
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20:09:25 <Wildhalcyon> Haha! my internet not only works, it works WELL!
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20:17:24 <jix> i'm stupid
20:17:35 <jix> i'm typing 5 lines of irc msgs into my c source
20:24:04 <jix> i'm working on a ultimate compressor
20:25:57 <jix> a rangecoder with a super-intielligent (stupid) model
20:33:43 <jix> in a threadsafe flexible library
20:33:48 <jix> and no one cares :(
20:38:35 <jix> there is no irc channel about compression
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20:39:09 <jix> 21:09:04<Wildhalcyon>Haha! my internet not only works, it works WELL! << really?
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21:45:35 <twobitsprite> would a command to jump to the beginning of a program be touring complete?
22:02:41 <lindi-> twobitsprite: how can a command be turing complete or not?
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22:19:52 <Wildhalcyon> I think Transcipt needs some method of manipulating input strings
22:24:52 <kipple> agreed. there's not much string manipulation that can be done
22:26:08 <kipple> another suggestion for the 15th Glypho op: output top value as ASCII
22:27:00 <kipple> or pop value, convert to ASCII, then push again
22:31:44 <kipple> extremely useful in any case :)
22:32:10 <Wildhalcyon> Im thinking of just keeping it a "free-for-all" implementation-dependent instruction
22:32:57 <kipple> an Undefined behavior instruction ;)
22:33:22 <GregorR-L> But then what happens when the proprietary implementation from Microsoft has a useful command and everybody gloms onto it?
22:33:43 <kipple> then Wildhalcyen gets stinkin' rich
22:33:49 <kipple> wouldn't want that to happen
22:34:38 <Wildhalcyon> hmm... kipple, I value your input, but not this time!
22:35:01 <GregorR-L> Micro$oft would get stinkin' richer.
22:35:09 <GregorR-L> And Wildhalcyon would get stinkin' credit but no $$$ :-P
22:35:53 <GregorR-L> But it's street cred associated with Microsoft.
22:36:09 <GregorR-L> That's like the street cred from being a Visual Basic guru :-P
22:36:54 * kipple writes C# and a bit of VB for a living....
22:37:23 * GregorR-L writes PHP and a bit of C for a living!
22:37:53 <kipple> VB sucks, but C# is actually quite nice (except for the microsoft issue)
22:38:55 <Wildhalcyon> microsoft is an insult to small, plyable objects
22:40:06 * kipple is a java fan and C# is pretty close
22:40:22 <Wildhalcyon> I had a great one-liner about the "made easy" programming series and somebody's mom, but it didn't pan out.
22:40:53 * Wildhalcyon is *not* a java fan, but respects the need to develop a platform independent programming language
22:40:59 <GregorR-L> Wildhalcyon was working on it in his joke lab in the basement, but a lab accident caused an explosion that killed ... his MOM AHAHAHAHAHA
22:41:51 <kipple> he said *somebody's mom*, not his. the question is: what was she doing in his basement?
22:42:10 <GregorR-L> Wildhalcyon: There are plenty of platform independent programming languages ... just most of them compile to platform specific machine code.
22:42:44 <Wildhalcyon> Sadly, Gregor assumes that I am rich enough to afford a basement, and am not, as reality would like to object, forced to keep his outdated computer in the livingroom, next to the television.
22:43:06 <kipple> java applets are very nice for the web, and the only competition there (that I'm aware of) is Flash...
22:43:41 <Wildhalcyon> applets could easily be superceded by Gammaplex applets imo
22:44:42 <GregorR-L> Wildhalcyon: Java sports a platform independent virtual machine, that's what.
22:44:52 <Wildhalcyon> kipple: simply port every known applet everywhere into esoteric Gammaplex, then write a gammaplex applet extension for every version of every popular web browser
22:45:07 <GregorR-L> If somebody made a virtual platform that one could compile C to, then made VMs for major platforms, it would work just as well.
22:45:18 <GregorR-L> (Except that Java is made to be especially suited for a VM)
22:45:36 <Wildhalcyon> I understand that much, I just think its too clunky.
22:46:28 <Wildhalcyon> When I bought visual studio my freshman year of college, it came with a giant poster indentifying all the classes and their inheritance characteristics. Yuck.
22:48:43 <Wildhalcyon> I think it needs improvements, but its got a nice foundation
22:50:17 <kipple> one of the nice things about the Java VM (or microsofts CLR for that matter) is that they're not bound to a specific language. there are several compilers for other langs to java bytecode
22:57:07 <kipple> a multiple esolang to java byte code compiler would be cool
22:58:09 <Wildhalcyon> glypho is easy. Most tarpits are relatively easy to put into higher-level languages
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