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00:16:40 <GregorR-L> I'm beginning to get the hang of Dvorak :)
00:17:22 <GregorR-L> I'm still slow, but I'm basically accurate
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02:03:27 <duerig> You interested in taking a peek at a new esoteric language? I just put it on the esolang wiki and am looking for feedback about it.
02:03:53 <kipple> I've looked briefly at it
02:04:31 <kipple> a really comprehensive article too :)
02:04:44 <kipple> probably one of the biggest on the wiki
02:04:50 <duerig> Hahaha. Yeah. I basically uploaded my design document and wiki-fied it.
02:05:09 <duerig> But I've made some changes to hopefully make it easier to comprehend for others.
02:06:00 <kipple> I noticed the article didn't say who invented it, or when. would you mind adding that?
02:06:03 <duerig> This is also my first submission on the wiki, though I've been lurking for a while.
02:06:18 <kipple> you don't have to use your real name if you don't want to
02:06:31 <kipple> but it is nice to have something at least
02:07:28 <klutzy> my fingers something wrong
02:08:21 <duerig> Oh. For a second I thought there was some new language using the a and '?'. Hahaha
02:12:44 <duerig> I now have an account, and have attributed the invention of 'Rail' to it.
02:13:24 <duerig> Thanks for reminding me of that.
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02:21:18 <duerig> btw, kipple, if you feel like playing around with the interpreter at all, there is a quick-and-dirty interactive mode which lets you see the program counter move around as you step through the program.
02:21:37 <kipple> I was just looking at the usage info :)
02:23:26 <duerig> Ah. Nifty. The trick is to define a special input and output file because the interactive mode takes over stdin and stdout.
02:24:45 <kipple> what does this mean? "Any number of lines may precede the one with the '$' on the far left."
02:24:57 <kipple> that you can write comments and such on lines above the $?
02:25:08 <duerig> And they don't matter.
02:25:27 <duerig> You can write comments in the code itself if they are surrounded by whitespace.
02:26:22 <duerig> I should rephrase that so its clearer.
02:26:39 <kipple> it shouldn't be under the hello world example
02:26:51 <duerig> Ok. *scribbles down a note*
02:27:08 <kipple> IMHO it should be wherever you talk about the $
02:29:44 <kipple> can you have more than one?
02:30:49 <duerig> Nifty. I'm taking notes on your questions. Then I can add fixes to the article appropriately later on.
02:31:07 <kipple> hehe: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Special:Longpages
02:31:42 <duerig> Wow. I'm only beat out by bf constants.
02:32:04 <duerig> I suppose this is a consequence of designing a maximalist kind of language.
02:32:47 <kipple> I don't understand this sentence "The universal junction, '*', allows a train entering in any direction to leave in the opposite direction."
02:33:03 <kipple> that sounds just like @ to me (and that has to be wrong)
02:33:15 <duerig> Enter from east. Leaves to west, for instance.
02:33:20 <duerig> I'll make that clearer.
02:33:56 <kipple> entering from east and leaving to the west is just going straight forward...
02:34:05 <duerig> Yeah. That is basically it.
02:34:17 <duerig> The confusion is that enter and leave are opposites.
02:34:25 <duerig> So two opposites cancel each other out.
02:34:35 <duerig> And that is my awkward phrasing. Haha.
02:34:38 <duerig> I'll be sure to fix taht.
02:35:13 <kipple> I though those junctions were supposed to be used for control flow
02:35:22 <kipple> but they don't do they?
02:35:24 <duerig> The junctions for control flow are the y-junctions.
02:35:34 <duerig> The other junctions are just for passing through.
02:35:36 <kipple> yeah, I read a bit further and saw that
02:35:39 <duerig> Like the skip instruction in PATH.
02:35:52 <duerig> On the list of things to fix. Thanks. You are being most helpful!
02:37:07 <kipple> have you played transport tycoon?
02:38:04 <kipple> it's a rail building game
02:38:07 <duerig> I played railroad tycoon obsessively for a while, though. And a-train.
02:38:19 <duerig> Those are older, I believe.
02:38:28 <duerig> But that kind of thing is how I envision it. :)
02:38:42 <kipple> there was a guy here who posted screenshots of logic circuits made with Transport Tycoon some days ago
02:38:54 <duerig> Interesting coincidence.
02:38:57 <kipple> or the Open source clone, I think
02:39:13 <duerig> Hmm. That would be quite interesting. I'll have to google for it.
02:45:28 <kipple> is true and false 't' and 'f' or 0 and 1 (or both)?
02:48:03 <duerig> The command to push true is 't'. The command to push false is 'f'.
02:48:20 <duerig> The actual representations on the stack are "1" and "0" respectively.
02:48:24 <duerig> That is a bit confusing.
02:48:32 <duerig> What do you suggest I do about it?
02:48:33 <kipple> so you can push 0 and 1 if you want to instead?
02:48:43 <duerig> In fact the digits just push themselves on the stack.
02:51:00 <fizzie> http://gehennom.org/~fis/ttd_logic/, if you're interested.
02:52:33 <fizzie> (It's ~05 am in this time-zone, so I'll probably be asleep soon.)
02:53:33 <duerig> Wow. It is night here.
02:54:00 <duerig> Y'all must be half way around the world.
02:55:40 <kipple> how do you duplicate the top of the stack?
02:56:29 <duerig> With variables. One of the examples I give is a function called 'dup' which does that.
02:56:43 <duerig> I don't have it inbuilt 'cuz you can do it with other primitives. :)
02:56:55 <duerig> Same with swap, drop, and other stack operations.
02:58:09 <duerig> Thanks for the link, fizzie. It looks very interesting.
02:58:27 <duerig> Vaguely similar to my efforts a while ago to implement Brainfuck in ZZT.
02:58:32 <duerig> Though more successful.
03:03:08 <duerig> I'll have to try out open transport tycoon deluxe. It looks fun.
03:03:34 <fizzie> It needs the datafiles from the commercial game, though.
03:03:51 <fizzie> I've been thinking about optimizing the space-usage of the constructs a bit, and then adding a "plant an and/or/xor gate here in this direction" tool to OpenTTD gui. I already got complaints about the 4-bit adder being too unnatural-looking and lacking scenery.
03:04:40 <fizzie> (Those are available at some "abandonware"-type sites, with dubious legality.) Erh, exam-day tomorrow. I sleeps now. ->
03:04:43 <duerig> Though proving that it can be done gets you lots of coolness points.
03:08:28 <kipple> gotta get some sleep too. bye
03:36:45 <duerig> I'm the guy who just added 'rail' to the esolang wiki. So I'm hanging out here trying to get people to glance at it and give me feeback.
03:36:53 <duerig> On the language or how its presented in the article.
03:38:19 <GregorR> Haven't tried it yet, though.
03:38:43 <duerig> Well, let me know if you do. Negative feedback or positive feedback, both are helpful.
03:40:16 <duerig> I was interested to note that the method of distinguishing various multi-character stuff is similar to that of rail.
03:40:31 <duerig> But I really like the combination of oo with an explicit stack.
03:43:11 <duerig> Yet more proof that a language designer can be evil in any paradigm. Haha.
03:45:45 <duerig> btw, what is the EgoBot?
03:46:06 <GregorR> !glass {M[m(_o)O!"I run code!"(_o)o.?]}
03:47:14 <duerig> !brainfuck >+++++++++[<++++++++>-]<.>+++++++[<++++>-]<+.+++++++..+++.>>>++++++++[<++++>-]<.>>>++++++++++[<+++++++++>-]<---.<<<<.+++.------.--------.>>+.
03:47:35 <duerig> What languages does the EgoBot run?
03:47:42 <duerig> !bf >+++++++++[<++++++++>-]<.>+++++++[<++++>-]<+.+++++++..+++.>>>++++++++[<++++>-]<.>>>++++++++++[<+++++++++>-]<---.<<<<.+++.------.--------.>>+.
03:47:56 <EgoBot> help ps kill i flush show
03:47:59 <EgoBot> 1l 2l axo befunge bch bf glass glypho kipple malbolge pbrain sadol sceql udage01
03:48:27 <duerig> How does it do 2l? I thought that was a 2d language?
03:49:14 <GregorR> !glass http://pastebin.ca/raw/26890
03:49:25 <EgoBot> I run code from URLs too!
03:49:25 <GregorR> I need to make sub-help, show just shows the current output buffer ;)
03:50:06 <duerig> Awesome *shakes the EgoBot's hand*.
03:50:28 <duerig> What is the EgoBot programmed in? Tell me bf and I'll be really impressed. :-)
03:50:31 <GregorR> You could shake my hand, since I wrote it :-P
03:51:14 * duerig awards GregorR 7 coolness points.
03:52:07 <duerig> C++ is my language of choice. You might say that I'm a C++ weenie.
03:52:36 <GregorR> I switch between C and C++ for non-web-based things.
03:52:49 <GregorR> Some programs are better for a structural approach, others for an OO approach *shrugs*
03:52:50 <duerig> I'm one of those poor souls who actually has a copy of the standard and refers to it.
03:54:04 <GregorR> Oh, and 2L too (since you mentioned it) :P
03:55:34 <duerig> Rail is my first esoteric language.
03:56:49 <GregorR> Oh, don't worry: Soon enough you'll have four and be able to say "Wow, that was a waste of my life" :-P
03:58:50 <duerig> Hahaha. I actually feel like I am learning a lot. One of my research interests is programming languages and compilers. It is really interesting to write an interpreter for such non-traditional languages.
03:59:23 <GregorR> BTW, look at Glass for an example of how not to write an interpreter.
03:59:50 <duerig> Also, it helps give me flexibility. Too much time spent programming in C++ blinds you to alternative ways of doing things.
04:00:13 <duerig> What did you do that is bad?
04:00:36 <GregorR> Well, the /process/ is sound, but the code is overly complex and not very cohesive :P
04:01:05 <lament> too much time spent programming in C++ also rots your brain
04:01:27 <GregorR> OMGWTF Python SUX0RZ ROFLMAOOLOLOLOLOL
04:01:41 <duerig> What is your language of choice, lament?
04:01:53 <lament> duerig: Python SUX0RZ :)
04:02:07 <GregorR> It's a local dialect of Python.
04:02:17 <GregorR> It's basically Python translated to AOL n00b speak.
04:02:21 <lament> at least, python is what i actually write stuff in. Haskell, Smalltalk or whatever is what i would use if i were smarter.
04:03:09 <duerig> *crosses himself* You shouldn't mention the term 'Haskell'. Just refer to it as the 'Scottish language'. Don't you know that it is evil? That it is cursed?!?!? :-)
04:03:34 <duerig> Yeah. Any language with more than four arrow operators is automatically cursed.
04:04:11 <lament> that seems kinda arbitrary
04:04:19 <lament> anyway, in haskell anything can be an operator
04:04:22 <duerig> Actually, I can't program in it because it is hard to wrap my head around programming with lazy execution.
04:04:26 <lament> so it doesn't really matter what is and what isn't
04:04:36 <lament> and yes, i can't program in it either
04:04:41 <lament> which is why i said, "if i were smarter"
04:05:47 <duerig> I haven't really used Smalltalk.
04:06:31 <lament> yeah but ocaml is like haskell for dummies.
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04:07:46 <duerig> I once took a class on 'practical functional programming'. We were allowed to choose our own language for the course. Only one person was brave enough to pick Haskell. He showed us his code once and all our eyes bugged out.
04:08:15 <lament> what did everyone else choose, C++?
04:08:30 <duerig> btw, GregorR, I think its funny that you use 'Klass' for class. Makes sense, but funny.
04:09:05 <duerig> Oh. Since the class was about functional programming languages, we had to choose one of those. About half the class picked Scheme and the other half picked OCaml.
04:09:16 <GregorR> duerig: Well, class is reserved :-P
04:09:29 <Arrogant> Haskell is a great language though.
04:09:31 <duerig> Yeah. I know. I probably would have done something like 'ClassT'.
04:09:34 <lament> but for any actual work, it's so incredibly verbose
04:09:37 <duerig> But that is just my bias.
04:09:42 <duerig> Your solution makes sense. :)
04:10:00 <lament> scheme and haskell are both conceptually pretty, but scheme is ugly in practice
04:10:17 <duerig> I just have a fundamental allergy to dynamic typing.
04:10:20 <lament> (or maybe that's just me)
04:10:28 <duerig> If I can't say 'that is a list' to the compiler, I always feel like I have to check.
04:10:29 <lament> duerig: me too. That's why I prefer Python.
04:10:37 <lament> i thought you said static :P
04:10:58 <lament> don't bother looking at smalltalk, then
04:11:16 <duerig> Arrogant, interested in giving me feedback about a new esoteric language?
04:11:41 <duerig> lament, it is ok when I'm making something small, but it feels more cumbersome to me when making something large.
04:12:03 <lament> large things consist of small things :)
04:12:28 <GregorR> A good software engineer, lament.
04:12:33 <duerig> No. Large things consist of combinations of small things. Is the n choose 2 possible combinations that scare me. :)
04:12:37 <GregorR> A good software engineer, lament is.
04:13:01 <lament> duerig: in short, programming sucks.
04:13:12 <duerig> Hahaha. But I'm addicted.
04:13:12 <lament> whichever solution you use, it's still crappy
04:13:19 <duerig> It is like heroine. Too late for me now. :)
04:13:21 <lament> dynamic typing is a mess
04:13:24 <lament> static typing is a pain
04:14:07 <duerig> Yeah. I like static typing, but that is just because it seems too evil.
04:14:38 <lament> static typing forces you to think about the types
04:14:51 <lament> which forces you to design the program in a certain way
04:15:00 <duerig> I've just had a great idea for a new esoteric language! This would be evil because it would force you to qualify everything with a type, but wouldn't check the types! It'd be the worst of both worlds! Hahaha
04:15:02 <lament> which might not be pleasant or smart
04:15:43 <lament> each variable must have at least four type qualifiers
04:15:54 <lament> short long static volatile int *foo;
04:16:14 <lament> foo = (short long static volatile int *) 42;
04:16:19 <lament> print foo; // prints 42
04:16:31 <lament> cast is required of course.
04:16:49 <lament> duerig: i think that language already exists
04:17:25 <GregorR> You can rag on C all you want, it's still a great language for structured programming.
04:17:50 <duerig> Actually, regarding the dynamic vs. static typing thing, The esoteric language I just created is dynamically typed, but I wrote it in C++ because I prefer static types.
04:17:56 <duerig> Which is a bit ironic.
04:18:15 <lament> duerig: i bet i could write an interpreter in Python faster than you wrote it in C++!
04:18:40 <duerig> But I bet that after I wrote my interpreter in C++ I could change it easier.
04:18:54 <lament> I bet not! because your interpreter is statically typed!
04:19:05 <GregorR> .................................
04:19:06 <lament> you would have the extra work of having to change the types
04:19:20 <duerig> Don't mean to start a language war.
04:19:22 <GregorR> Whether in Python or C++, it's bad practice to change a=7 to a="blah".
04:20:02 <lament> GregorR: it might be good sometimes.
04:20:38 <lament> (every time hoping that maybe this time it will be good)
04:20:45 <GregorR> Give me an example of a /good/ --- :P
04:21:04 <lament> hell i even change loop indices to strings because it's prettier that way.
04:21:42 <GregorR> for (i = "zero"; strless(i, "ten"); strplusplus(i)) { ... }
04:21:54 <duerig> lament, you should try my esolang Rail. It is like forth but without all that pesky 'efficiency' stuff.
04:22:11 <lament> duerig: have you looked at False?
04:22:19 <Arrogant> GregorR: I love how incredibly off that is!
04:22:29 <lament> duerig: and where's your esolang?
04:23:08 <duerig> http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Rail
04:23:20 <duerig> Forth is actually just one of the influences.
04:23:26 <duerig> I've looked at False. Looking again.
04:23:42 <GregorR> F! "I wish I was part of EgoBot!"
04:24:31 <lament> wow, Rail seems complicated.
04:24:57 <lament> F! "I wish people would stop putting words in my mouth!"
04:24:57 <falsebot> I wish people would stop putting words in my mouth!
04:25:19 <duerig> Its just forth in a 2-dimensional language with lists, closures, and GC tacked on. Hahaha
04:25:43 <lament> forth with lists and closures
04:26:59 <lament> definitely have a look at it
04:27:02 <GregorR> lament: "Shaking" yes is nodding ;)
04:27:14 <lament> because it's forth with closures, lists and GC tacked on
04:27:22 <lament> there's a channel for it somewhere
04:27:24 <lament> called sometihng stupid
04:27:35 <lament> #concatenative i think
04:27:58 <lament> it's very one-dimensional though
04:27:58 <duerig> Oh. But Rail is two-dimensional too.
04:28:03 <duerig> But now I feel less creative. :)
04:28:05 <lament> reminds of Forth and Scheme at the same time. Pretty neat.
04:28:24 <lament> (and of course a huge pain to deal with because of the goddamn stack!)
04:28:24 <duerig> Cool. I'm bookmarking the page.
04:28:35 <duerig> Hahaha. Stacks are fun.
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04:29:08 <duerig> That is the essence of a good esolang. Fun, but inconvenient. :)
04:29:28 <duerig> I think that is why there are so many stack-based esolangs.
04:29:30 <wildhalcyon> battle of the bots.. when'd sadol join in the fun?
04:30:11 * GregorR defers wildhalcyon to the logs ;)
04:30:15 <lament> duerig: no, i think that's why there's so few flat-random-access-memory esolangs, and so many esolangs with all other possible memory setups
04:30:46 * wildhalcyon avoids the many days of logs he's missed due to reasons which he loathes
04:31:19 <lament> wildhalcyon: oh yeah, the bots. There's falsebot, and there's the impostors.
04:31:31 <lament> EgoBot and SadolBot, ignore them, they're evil
04:31:43 <EgoBot> help ps kill i flush show
04:31:46 <EgoBot> 1l 2l axo befunge bch bf glass glypho kipple malbolge pbrain sadol sceql udage01
04:31:49 <duerig> Now all we need is some form of corewars. Where bots try to get other bots to execute inimical programs.
04:32:01 <GregorR> !glass {M[m(_o)O!"OMG I can interpret so many languages (including sadol)!"(_o)o.?]}
04:32:05 <EgoBot> OMG I can interpret so many languages (including sadol)!
04:32:06 <lament> duerig: i was thinking of actually having something like corewars here
04:32:27 <lament> but corewars itself would likely not be too popular
04:33:10 <lament> maybe a bot conducting a computer rock-paper-scissor competition among user-submitted programs.
04:33:20 <wildhalcyon> I think it would be an interesting exercise to write a looping quine from the bots - bot 1 outputs the commands for bot 2 which... outputs the commands for bot n, which outputs the original command to bot 1
04:33:22 <lament> But then those programs would all have to be written in some specific language
04:33:32 <GregorR> AHHHHHHH, FYB FYB FFYB FYB FYB!!!!!
04:33:53 <lament> wildhalcyon: we already had that
04:34:16 <lament> (it cheated by using variables)
04:34:32 <falsebot> Error: Argument to ! is not a function
04:34:36 <wildhalcyon> Did the bots get bored with it eventually?
04:34:45 <duerig> btw, wildhalcyon, interested in giving feedback on a new esoteric language?
04:35:26 <duerig> http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Rail
04:36:05 <wildhalcyon> Ah, I saw that on the wiki earlier.. didn't have time to do much more than scroll down the page
04:36:18 <wildhalcyon> Reminds me a bit of spiral, only.. I think this might be designed a little better
04:37:18 <wildhalcyon> Not that I believe any esolang has design as a fundamental criterion. Except maybe Piet. Esolang-as-art!
04:38:17 <duerig> Spiral is nifty. You have to hand it to any language which can make the "Hello, World!" program actually look like hello, world.
04:39:51 <duerig> Well, one of my design criterion for Rail was that it had to allow for functional abstraction. Hence actual variable names and function names.
04:40:24 <duerig> Which means that in theory you can do something big with it.
04:40:36 <duerig> But currently it is as slow as Gehenna, so it may not be practical to do so. :)
04:40:41 <wildhalcyon> Yeah, functions are nifty sometimes. They're like socially acceptable gotos
04:41:12 <duerig> I think Gehenna is the frozen hell, so I'd think it'd be slow. :)
04:41:31 <wildhalcyon> Hmm.. Im always getting my hells mixed up.
04:42:19 <duerig> I figure, I'll learn all I need to know about that after I'm dead, so why memorize it now? :-)
04:43:05 <wildhalcyon> Its nice to know where I'll be going, is all
04:43:31 <duerig> True. But I plan on a deathbed conversion so I go to the good place. :)
04:43:41 <duerig> I just haven't decided which deathbed conversion to go with.
04:43:49 <wildhalcyon> I don't think I'll end up in the cold one. I forget what you had to do to get there...
04:44:18 <wildhalcyon> "To the faiths of the world: I accept you"
04:46:14 <wildhalcyon> There's a lot of "except that ones" that I would list... there's only a few religions I feel comfortable associating myself with in any kind of conversionary way - even for the last few minutes of my life
04:46:55 <duerig> Maybe just say "God, in these last minutes I accept the true faith. You know the one..."
04:46:58 <Arrogant> I'm an Atheist so I don't really associate with any of them actively.
04:47:28 <wildhalcyon> Arrogant: Im talking from a social point of view, not personal
04:47:52 <wildhalcyon> I don't want to die knowing that people were under the impression I thought scientology was in any way an okay religion
04:48:09 <Arrogant> Scientology is a science fiction cult
04:49:09 <duerig> Be careful what you say... they might show up at your door with pitchforks and subpoenas. :-)
04:49:31 <GregorR> "The difference between Scientology and Christian Science is that Scientology is Sci-Fi and christian science is Fantasy." - Gregor Richards
04:51:07 <wildhalcyon> Anyhow, right now I am *happily* agnostic, and a few religions have threatened that I shall not experience eternal life (i.e. no hell - just lack of existence if I deny jesus), which - as a partial atheist, doesnt exactly inspire fear.
04:51:31 <GregorR> High five for empirical agnosticism!
04:51:49 <GregorR> "Agnosticism isn't sitting on the fence you stupid bastards!" - Gregor Richards
04:52:02 <duerig> Haha. I was in a meeting of atheists a while ago. We talked about how to expand our 'religion', we should find agnostics and try to convert them. Hahaha
04:52:17 <Arrogant> I wish to meet this Gregor Richards fellow, he is a brilliant man
04:52:24 <wildhalcyon> lol duerig. Actually, it might help to have an atheist religious text.
04:52:24 <GregorR> Weak atheism and empirical agnosticism are the same thing.
04:52:39 <GregorR> (From different viewpoints)
04:53:00 <Arrogant> It's one thing to talk to someone about it, but ACTIVELY CONVERTING PEOPLE is like, evil.
04:53:49 <GregorR> I should point out right now that people are inherantly agnostic, only conversion while growing up (and some natural human tendencies) sways them back and forth on the theism plane ;)
04:54:25 <wildhalcyon> Im changing my religion. On paper at least.
04:54:47 <Arrogant> I know some people who have changed their religion drastically within the past few years several times
04:55:02 <Arrogant> They should try to think for themselves
04:55:11 <duerig> Arrogant, I agree with you that evangelism is evil. It was all joking.
04:55:27 <wildhalcyon> no, actually, its a branch of christianity I would rather not mention. Im doing it to make my marriage a little "easier" on the in-laws.
04:55:40 <GregorR> So, this is a godless bunch :-P
04:56:19 <wildhalcyon> Not godless, gregor, just unguided through the darkness. Part of making esolangs, I guess: you've got to have an open mind to wonder about the possibilities.
04:56:26 <duerig> True. It was just a joke based on the christian myth that the atheists would 'convert' their children.
04:56:45 <Arrogant> Atheists are not tied together by common faith like religious
04:56:46 <duerig> That is a good way to put it.
04:57:04 <duerig> The atheist says that to see is to believe. But the agnostic says we are blind.
04:57:35 <Arrogant> I completely hit enter without completing the thought
04:57:53 <GregorR> Usually you just partially hit enter on an incomplete thought?
04:58:05 <Arrogant> Keyboard isn't pressure sensitive
04:58:27 <wildhalcyon> Would partial-enter make sense if it were?
04:59:17 <Arrogant> If you assign a function to something, it can make sense.
04:59:29 <wildhalcyon> Part of my agnosticism stems from the fact that I think everything will be alright if Im wrong.
04:59:56 <Arrogant> I can't be agnostic because I actively disbelieve in divinity and the supernatural.
05:00:17 <Arrogant> There's a difference between disbelief and nonbelief.
05:01:06 <Arrogant> You can not belief something, or you can belief that something is not.
05:01:44 <wildhalcyon> Hmm, I suppose I can see the difference, but I think its largely semantics
05:02:17 <GregorR> It's a very significant difference.
05:02:30 <wildhalcyon> I have trouble discussing religion with christians, or any of the judaic-tradition religions
05:03:05 <wildhalcyon> Not really with atheists though. I admit, Im not really an atheist because I actively "do not know", but I understand them.
05:03:58 <GregorR> There is no such thing as knowledge.
05:04:05 <duerig> I tend to think that doubt is one of the cardinal virtues. Always fear those who are without doubt.
05:04:16 <Arrogant> GregorR: I've had some terribly huge debates on the existance of truth.
05:04:47 <Arrogant> There are two truths, personal truth and reality.
05:05:23 <Arrogant> I am partially agnostic because I can admit that there is a possibility of such an existance
05:05:55 <GregorR> Hmm, I would point out that we only presume that reality exists based on perception, and it's unknowable whether our perceptions accuratly describe reality, or if reality even exists.
05:05:56 <Arrogant> But I believe that this is such an incredibly small possibility that it is nothing to consider.
05:05:57 <duerig> I'm of the other side. Absolute truth exists. But I tend to get along well with relativists because I recognize that finding that absolute truth is nontrivial.
05:06:34 <duerig> It is far more common for someone to have a false certainty then it is for them to have a correct one.
05:06:58 <Arrogant> Absolute truth is how things are in realition to "existance"
05:07:10 <GregorR> I don't think anybody is denying whether absolute truth /exists/, merely whether we are capable of attaining it.
05:07:56 <GregorR> Now, let me turn the conversation again with this challenge:
05:08:00 <duerig> We are capable of attaining it. But it is always more complex than many suspect.
05:08:00 <Arrogant> There are plenty of people that I've talked to that don't believe in an absolute truth and that it depends upon personal truth.
05:08:15 <GregorR> Give me a rational reason for the illegalization of consensual bestiality.
05:08:26 <Arrogant> We are capable of attaining it, but we can never COMPLETELY CONFIRM it's correctness.
05:08:37 <Arrogant> That we can be pretty damned sure is great.
05:08:52 <duerig> Reason is not a method for discovering truth. It is a method for discarding falsehood.
05:09:50 <wildhalcyon> Gregor: we have no way to ascertain the "consensuality" of the bestiality. How do we know that's what the sheep desires?
05:10:13 <duerig> GregorR, the transfer of disease from pets/livestock to humans is a major source of concern for world health. Sexual congress increases the likelyhood of the crossover of a disease.
05:10:14 <GregorR> wildhalcyon: Hmm, when a sheep becomes erect and mounts something, it's pretty obvious.
05:11:29 <GregorR> duerig: I don't know if I agree with that ... most of the diseases which are compatible between humans and animals are not viruses, but are caused by something else (prions, etc), and are therefore not so easy to communicate ...
05:12:03 <wildhalcyon> gregor - in that same manner, an older woman having sex with a minor wouldn't be illegal, but it is, and for rational reasons
05:12:20 <Arrogant> It would be pretty hard to have sex with a bird
05:12:36 <GregorR> wildhalcyon: The reason why a minor can't concent is because said minor is not sexually mature.
05:12:46 <GregorR> THe animal (presumably) would be sexually mature.
05:13:25 <GregorR> No, it's not, 18+ is just arbitrary. It is not immoral for a 16-yr-old sexually mat--- exactly.
05:13:57 <Arrogant> Mental maturity isn't there in most people until much later, if ever.
05:14:18 <GregorR> Your "if ever" defeated your argument ;)
05:14:40 <GregorR> A 32 year old star of Jackass is allowed to procreate ;)
05:14:58 <wildhalcyon> Now, before I start picturing goats mounting gregor, I must go to bed
05:15:15 <Arrogant> So clearly mental maturity isn't the main concern
05:15:22 <GregorR> Just thought I'd put that question out there, since I was asked it today XD
05:15:32 <Arrogant> Age of concent isn't 18 though.
05:15:49 <GregorR> And one /hot/ goat if I might add.
05:16:13 <duerig> Dear heavens. I fear we have departed somewhat from the topic of esoteric languages.
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05:16:55 <GregorR> duerig: I'll write an esoteric programming language that relates procreation with animals to transfer of information, then it'll be on topic.
05:17:58 <duerig> Argh!! *flees in terror*
05:19:11 <Arrogant> duerig: The topic of esoteric languages is hard to stay on
05:19:40 <GregorR> (In Romania, bestial porn is legal and sold commonly)
05:19:59 <GregorR> One of those countries up there.
05:20:29 <Arrogant> Why I ever wikipedia'd pornography is beyond me
05:22:22 <GregorR> You just answered your own question ;)
05:22:30 <Arrogant> http://www.whahay.net/pubaccess/sonic3d.gif <- OCRemix put this up as the title-screen for Sonic 3D: Flickie's Island (European Sonic 3D Blast)
05:25:48 <GregorR> Want to design a site for me? ;)
05:25:54 <Arrogant> Making things compatible is just awful.
05:26:10 <Arrogant> At least with coding you have conditional compile.
05:26:18 <Arrogant> You have to use hacks to make CSS do the right things in different browsers.
05:26:50 <duerig> That is why I design for firefox exclusively. If someone wants to use a crappy old browser, then I say screw 'em. :-)
05:27:11 <Arrogant> Well, Opera 8 is a very respectable browser
05:27:13 <Robdgreat> I had someone tell me that regarding IE
05:27:16 <Arrogant> And there are STILL discrepensies
05:27:25 <Arrogant> IE really was the best browser for a while
05:27:47 <Arrogant> IE is still the MOST USED BROWSER so you have to take it into consideration
05:27:57 <Robdgreat> right. but it's not the ONLY browser
05:28:02 <Robdgreat> so it's not the sole consideration
05:28:22 <Arrogant> No. No browser should be the soul consideration.
05:28:50 <Arrogant> Although I think it's legitimate to say "fuck old browsers"
05:28:56 <duerig> Nah. If I support people using shoddy old browsers like IE, they'll just keep using them. This way I'm helping build the future.
05:28:57 <Arrogant> I don't want to have to design for IE5
05:29:06 <duerig> OTOH, I don't think anyone but me ever reads my websites. Hahaha
05:29:12 <Arrogant> duerig: If you're doing professional web design...
05:29:26 <Arrogant> There are people who still use IE4
05:29:47 <GregorR> Arrogant: IE4 ... on HPUX :)
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05:33:56 <duerig> Hmmm... Arrogant Paragon.
05:35:21 <duerig> btw, Arrogant, have I already tried to get you to take a look at my esolang and give me comments?
05:35:54 <duerig> Yeah. I guess I have. :)
05:35:55 <Arrogant_> I took a look. Looks horridly complicated.
05:36:15 <duerig> Oh well. It is actually pretty intuitive once you start messing with it.
05:36:33 <duerig> But there are definitely a lot of commands and such.
05:36:50 <Arrogant_> http://uncyclopedia.org/wiki/Styrofoam By the way.
05:40:20 <duerig> The scary thing about Rail, btw, is that it is the second longest article in the whole wiki now.
05:40:24 <duerig> I don't know how that happened.
05:40:44 <duerig> But the only thing that beats it is the page on brainfuck constants. Which is *huge*.
05:41:02 <duerig> Ok. Maybe not *huge*, but pretty big.
05:42:39 <Arrogant_> http://www.patmedia.net/marklevinson/cool/cool_illusion.html
05:45:34 <duerig> OTOH, how do we know that there is no green dot? It could be evil! :-)
05:49:23 <duerig> Never give up! Never surrender!
05:49:28 <duerig> And knowing is half the battl!
05:50:46 <duerig> Someone should come up with an esolang based on cliches!
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05:56:07 <duerig> I need a bot too. Then I can have a foil for my clever lines.
05:56:16 <duerig> And a laugh track! I want a laugh track!
05:57:15 <GregorR> duerig: I could add Rail to EgoBot.
05:57:58 <duerig> Yeah. That would probably be pretty easy. I was thinking more on the lines of someone I could send a clever insult to and they would say 'Oh, Yeah?!?', making me look better. ;-)
05:58:15 <Robdgreat> HAHAhahahaha ahahhahaha a ahahaha ahahaha HAHAHHAHAHAH hahahaHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH
05:58:24 <duerig> Good. *tips Robdgreat*
05:59:03 * Robdgreat tries to use the slug in a gumball machine.
06:00:17 <Robdgreat> actually, a laugh track function wouldn't be too difficult
06:02:15 <duerig> Probably not, but in reality it would get on everyone's nerves in a bit. Someone would say 'My grandma died last night' and the laugh track would say 'ROFL DUD3!!!!'
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06:17:02 <GregorR> Rail doesn't support any file I/O, does it?
06:22:01 <GregorR> AFAICT it doesn't, I hope that's the case :P
06:22:08 <EgoBot> help ps kill i flush show
06:22:10 <EgoBot> 1l 2l adjust axo befunge bch bf glass glypho kipple malbolge pbrain rail sadol sceql udage01
06:22:23 <GregorR> !adjust http://www.esolangs.org/files/adjust/src/hell.aj
06:26:06 <EgoBot> Use: help [command] Function: displays help on a command, or lists commands
06:28:52 <duerig> Do you have a distaste for file I/O?
06:28:56 <GregorR> I can't add languages with file I/O to EgoBot ;)
06:29:31 <duerig> Nope. The only kinds of special output that happens is error messages.
06:29:53 <duerig> What do you do for stdin and stdout on the egobot?
06:30:02 <EgoBot> Use: i <pid> <input> Function: send input to a process
06:30:09 <GregorR> Stdout just displays to the channel.
06:30:56 <duerig> !rail $-[blah]o-# 'main'
06:31:17 <duerig> That may be a bug in my code.
06:31:25 <duerig> !rail $-[blah]o-#'main'
06:34:19 <duerig> Ah. So I've verified it isn't the function parser.
06:34:26 <duerig> So that means it is probably the movement.
06:36:51 <duerig> Its not a code bug. It was a mind bug.
06:37:08 <duerig> The '$' is essentially a junction. Which means that you can't change direction when going through it.
06:37:56 <duerig> This unfortunately means that all rail code must be done through url.
06:42:21 <duerig> !rail http://pastebin.ca/26896
06:42:34 <EgoBot> Internal Error: Crash: No 'main' function found
06:43:31 <duerig> !rail http://pastebin.ca/26896
06:43:47 <duerig> How does it tell the difference between a url and a program?
06:45:19 <duerig> !rail http://pastebin.ca/26896
06:47:54 <duerig> !rail http://pastebin.ca/26896
06:49:29 <duerig> !rail http://pastebin.ca/raw/26896
06:49:34 <EgoBot> rats-live-on-no-evil-star-
06:50:13 <duerig> Thanks for integrating rail into EgoBot.
07:03:43 <duerig> Let me know if you run across any defects or potential improvements in the rail language or docs. I'll be idling here for a while. Also, there is a webform on my user page on the wiki that will send me a message.
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08:11:39 <GregorR> Does this not set a to a times b, and increment b? The postfix operator has higher precedence than the equal, so it would return the current value of a and increment, but then the a = would set it back to the newly calculated value.
08:33:13 <duerig> This is explicitly stated in the C standard IIRC.
08:33:42 <duerig> In fact, I think a = b++ + b++ is also undefined.
08:33:49 <duerig> Meaning that it is implementation-dependant what happens.
08:35:59 <GregorR> It seems to me like the simple presedence would prescribe that a=a++ has no effect.
08:36:16 <GregorR> Unless the postfix is actually applied after the entire equation ... which makes even less sense ...
08:40:15 <duerig> The time of the postfix is unspecified. All that is required is that it is applied before the end of the line and after the use of the variable.
08:40:47 <duerig> C specifically leaves unspecified order of operations as much as possible.
08:41:47 <duerig> And postfix only says that the increment must happen after a time.
08:42:03 <duerig> IIRC, there is a whole thing about sequence points and stuff for consistency.
08:45:32 <GregorR> I'm sort of proud that 2L is the example on the Undefined Behavior page :)
08:48:29 <GregorR> Does anybody want to help me write fake research for the Intelligent Falling Education and Learning Library?
08:49:06 <GregorR> Something suggesting that gravitation is wrong and the best explanation is that there is a supernatural force pushing things down (except for those which it doesn't want to, IE birds, bees, and airplanes)
08:53:46 <duerig> Hahaha. Maybe some other time.
08:54:02 <duerig> Right now I'm busy procrastinating. :)
09:00:24 <duerig> Question: I presume that the PC in 2L turns before the '+' sign has to do with the wire-crossing problem.
09:01:24 <duerig> Er that the reason that the PC...
09:21:40 <fizzie> ISO/IEC 9899:1999 (E) (aka C99), 6.5, paragraph 2: "Between the previous and next sequence point and object shall have its stored value modified at most once by the evaluation of an expression. Furthermore, the prior value shall be read only to determine the value to be stored. 70)"
09:22:23 <fizzie> "70) This paragraph renders undefined expressions such as i = ++i + 1; a[i++] = i; while allowing i = i + 1; a[i] = i;"
09:23:06 <fizzie> And sequence points are basically at ';', ',', '&&', '||' and probably a few others. ('?:', I'd guess.)
09:36:02 <duerig> Nifty. I knew there were sequence points involved. :)
09:37:38 <duerig> Goodnight. Take care all.
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13:29:23 <wooby> what's new and cool in the world of esolangs
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13:33:38 <wooby> checking out glass now, looks sweet
13:35:59 <jix> !glass {M[moO!"Glass rules!"oo.?]}
13:36:55 <jix> !glass {M[moO!"The square root of 5 is: "oo.? <5> j(JixMath).? j(sqrt).? o(on).?]}
13:36:56 <EgoBot> The square root of 5 is:
13:37:13 <jix> !glass {M[moO!"The square root of 5 is: "oo.? j(JixMath).? <5> j(sqrt).? o(on).?]}
13:37:14 <EgoBot> The square root of 5 is:
13:37:28 <jix> !glass {M[m~Debug.cl~]}
13:37:30 <EgoBot> A Arr Arre BF Debug Emote F Fib Hsh Hshe I JixMath L LameQuine M O Rand S Tape TapeItem V
13:37:42 <jix> !glass {M[m"JixMath"~Debug.fl~]}
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14:41:07 <Gs30ng> glass is cool GregorR made an awesome work
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14:50:46 <Robdgreat> I was telling Gregor the other day that he's demented
14:51:07 <jix> but glass IS cool
14:53:20 <Gs30ng> well actually i have no enough time too read about it carefully and fully understand the language but it.. well... seems cool and must be cool since it's Gregor Maiden (?)
14:57:13 <Gs30ng> 'made' can be an alternative... it's kinda term of somewhere in europe afaik
15:50:07 <kipple> maiden has nothing to do with the word made (though whether or not it applies to Gregor, I will not speculate) ;)
15:50:42 <jix> lol i just looked up maiden...
15:52:08 <kipple> Gergor's maiden language is 2L I think, and not Glass :)
15:52:44 <Gs30ng> well ENGLISH word maiden would be
15:53:19 <Gs30ng> but i haven't determined what 'maiden' that i used is in
15:53:34 <kipple> I don't understand what you mean... I am talking about the english word of course
15:54:36 <Gs30ng> and i mean i used the word maiden of nonenglish... damn i can't figure out what language it is
17:24:32 <puzzlet> maiden is past participle of made
17:25:25 <kipple> what does that mean? can you give an example of it in a sentence?
17:26:32 <puzzlet> which means somebody made them
17:28:27 <puzzlet> same way that kitten is past participle of kit
17:29:00 <kipple> dictionary.com has no listing of that meaning of maiden. guess I'll not depend 100% on that one again :)
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18:49:20 <GregorR> Ummmmmmmmmmmm ..................
18:49:32 <GregorR> Maiden is not the past participle of made :P
18:50:03 <GregorR> Maden could be, but isn't.
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19:04:02 <GregorR> jix: You used .? instead of !
19:04:13 <GregorR> !glass {M[moO!"The square root of 5 is: "oo.? <5> j(JixMath)! j(sqrt).? o(on).?]}
19:04:15 <EgoBot> The square root of 5 is: 2.23607
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19:09:27 <duerig> GregorR, what is cat in glass?
19:11:46 <GregorR> {M[miI!oO!t$eie.?tn.?=/eic.?oo.?eie.?tn.?=\][n(_a)1=,/(_a)<0>^\<1>]}
19:12:05 <GregorR> I actually have a cat in the glass distro, but I just wrote that one ;)
19:12:09 <GregorR> !glass {M[miI!oO!t$eie.?tn.?=/eic.?oo.?eie.?tn.?=\][n(_a)1=,/(_a)<0>^\<1>]}
19:13:04 <duerig> I'll look in the distribution.
19:13:13 <GregorR> !glass {M[(ln)(_a)1=,/(_a)<0>^\<1>][m(_i)I!(_o)O!(_t)$(_c)(_i)e.?(_t)(ln).?=/(_c)(_i)c.?(_o)o.?(_c)(_i)e.?(_t)(ln).?=\]}
19:14:52 <GregorR> Weird, my input function must be broken.
19:14:56 <GregorR> That works fine from the console.
19:15:56 <duerig> !rail http://pastebin.ca/raw/26950
19:16:43 <duerig> !i 1 Happy day indeed!
19:16:47 <GregorR> wildhalcyon: It's all EgoBot.
19:16:49 <duerig> !i 1 "Happy day indeed!"
19:16:55 <EgoBot> Happy day indeed!"Happy day indeed!"
19:17:07 <duerig> It doesn't submit without a newline?
19:17:29 <GregorR> That is, the output doesn't come back if there is no newline.
19:17:38 <GregorR> Otherwise, it would just spew half-output to the channel ;)
19:17:52 <GregorR> wildhalcyon: /msg EgoBot !help
19:17:56 <GregorR> wildhalcyon: It's on 16 now :)
19:18:35 <duerig> !i 1 "Shiny happy people are attacking!"\n
19:18:37 <EgoBot> "Shiny happy people are attacking!"
19:20:48 <EgoBot> help ps kill i flush show
19:20:50 <EgoBot> 1l 2l adjust axo befunge bch bf glass glypho kipple malbolge pbrain rail sadol sceql udage01
19:21:42 <duerig> Using the bot here has made it clear to me that rail needs better error reporting.
19:26:43 <duerig> GregorR, I'd like to ask your advice about something. In the wiki article on rail, I put exhaustive lists of cases in a couple of places. This really helped me when I was making it and setting up the lookup tables for direction and such. But is it useful to have them in the general article? Is there a good way to summarize them?
19:29:00 <GregorR> I would leave the simple and explanatory cases in, and move the exhaustive lists to the bottom, a sort of an appendix, with a link.
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20:31:06 <jix> !glass {M[m<2><3>~A.mod~~O.on~]}
20:34:59 -!- int-e has quit ("Bye!").
20:36:42 <jix> !glass {M[m<2><3>~A.lt~~O.on~]}
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21:03:07 <Robdgreat> hm. somebody sent me a credit card.
21:21:33 -!- {^Raven^} has joined.
21:23:09 <GregorR> Why {^Raven^}, you're back.
21:24:20 <{^Raven^}> yup two more machines got exploded three weeks after i fixed em
21:25:04 <{^Raven^}> first time was a power spike that only killd the windows machines
21:25:14 <GregorR> You just attach a wire between somewhere on the motherboard and a pile of black powder, then another wire from the pile of black power to another place on the motherboard.
21:25:35 <Robdgreat> I wondered if there was another way
21:25:43 <{^Raven^}> second time was a brown out that exploded a my server and my windows machine
21:26:41 <{^Raven^}> got one on the main supply covering everything
21:27:54 <{^Raven^}> this time the machines were only shell shocked and needed an hour or two to get their wits back so no repairs needed
21:28:44 <Robdgreat> half my kingdom for clothes that wash themselves
21:29:45 <{^Raven^}> funny thing is that even though power was out for about 3 seconds one of my machines never noticed and just kept on processing without a blink :)
21:30:57 <GregorR> That's a mighty capacitor :)
21:31:35 <{^Raven^}> Acorn machines are known for their unrelenting ability to keep on working :P
21:33:07 <{^Raven^}> Anyhoo, gotta go veg out in front of a movie
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21:33:57 <Aardwolf> what does it mean if a machine is "shell shocked"?
21:40:27 <GregorR> shell-shocked or shell·shocked (shlshkt)
21:40:32 <GregorR> 2. Stunned, distressed, or exhausted from a prolonged trauma or an unexpected difficulty.
21:45:30 <Robdgreat> was about to say what about in a computer context
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22:12:18 <GregorR> calamari: Has EgoBot preempted EsoBot to the degree that I can remove EsoBot from the topic? :P
22:13:11 <calamari> sure, I haven't really been trying to keep EsoBot running
22:13:25 -!- GregorR has set topic: #esoteric, the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment - wiki: http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/ - logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ or http://meme.b9.com/cdates.html?channel=esoteric - falsebot: F!<false>, EgoBot: !help.
22:13:32 <GregorR> Now if I could just get false into EgoBot >_<
22:13:47 <EgoBot> help ps kill i flush show
22:13:49 <EgoBot> 1l 2l adjust axo befunge bch bf glass glypho kipple malbolge pbrain rail sadol sceql udage01
22:13:51 <EgoBot> Use: ps Function: display the current processes
22:14:24 <GregorR> Any languages you want to suggest adding?
22:14:52 <calamari> well, I was making that list of non-file using interpreters, but never got past 'A'
22:15:17 <GregorR> lol, preferably not just the complete list, but languages that at least somebody is interested in ;)
22:16:30 <GregorR> I'm sort of wary of muddling up my nice list of BSM and greater languages with jokes :P
22:17:55 <marcan> how do you type befunge into EgoBot?
22:17:59 <marcan> aren't programs multiline?
22:18:00 <calamari> or did you decide against a local program repository?
22:18:06 <GregorR> I have no intention of implementing a pseudofilesystem.
22:18:16 <calamari> marcan: I think you can use \n
22:18:17 <GregorR> It's just nothing I want to deal with :P
22:18:29 <GregorR> You need to use URLs for multiline programs.
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22:52:32 <EgoBot> Use: i <pid> <input> Function: send input to a process
22:53:29 <EgoBot> Use: show <pid> Function: display the current output buffer for a process
22:53:57 <calamari> you need to run an interpreter first
22:55:09 <calamari> (of course that won't do anything :)
22:55:47 <calamari> I think show only works while the program is running
22:56:25 <Aardwolf> !bf >+++++++++[<++++++++>-]<.>+++++++[<++++>-]<+.+++++++..+++.>>>++++++++[<++++>-]<.>>>++++++++++[<+++++++++>-]<---.<<<<.+++.------.--------.>>+.
22:56:51 <calamari> !bf ,----------[++++++++++.,----------]
22:56:55 <Aardwolf> if I could upload a file to it I'd let it run Lost Kingdom :)
22:57:07 <calamari> Aardwolf: you can run a program from a url
22:58:08 <GregorR> The confusion of EgoBot's output buffer explained: While the program is running, it will only output on \n or when you do !show, when the program stops running, it will output the rest of the buffer.
22:58:26 <calamari> GregorR: no confusion.. just testing again ;)
22:58:48 <calamari> GregorR: it doesn't remember all the output?
22:59:03 <GregorR> As soon as it outputs it it forgets it.
22:59:35 <calamari> I was going to add a !spy to EsoBot, in case someone started a program and left it, I could spy and figure out what the program was
23:01:19 <Aardwolf> well I hope it won't spam the channel too much
23:01:37 <Aardwolf> !bf http://www.student.kuleuven.ac.be/~m0216922/brol/LostKng.b
23:02:27 <calamari> *cough* local webserver *cough*
23:02:57 <GregorR> Oh, don't fret, it's downloading.
23:03:52 <Aardwolf> does it support brainloller? :)
23:04:12 <Aardwolf> it would load much faster, LK in a small png image :)
23:06:10 <GregorR> calamari: Maybe I will start up a local file repo ;)
23:06:26 <Aardwolf> is it still downloading? because when I download it it's there in a few seconds
23:06:41 <GregorR> Yeah, it's still downloading :P
23:07:07 <Aardwolf> I guess they're faster for people in belgium than the outside
23:07:52 <GregorR> So I'm just an outsider, eh :-P
23:08:46 <Aardwolf> well meanwhile, check out this :) http://www.rense.com/general67/street.htm
23:14:41 <Aardwolf> it isn't redownloading the file for each character it reads, right? :)
23:16:46 <calamari> should keep it going until the game is completed
23:17:12 <GregorR> When you kill it, it will delete the file, and I will be unhappy ;)
23:17:22 <calamari> it won't work right tho, if I'm understanding correctly
23:17:33 <Robdgreat> you should put in a progress indicator command
23:17:34 <calamari> because it won't print the prompts
23:17:43 <calamari> you'll have to do !show every time
23:17:48 <GregorR> It's pretty easy to tell when there's a prompt.
23:17:54 <GregorR> It doesn't /need/ to output it.
23:18:15 <GregorR> calamari: !help seems to suggest otherwise.
23:18:27 <GregorR> Anyway, it's impossible to detect whether a program is awaiting input.
23:18:28 <Aardwolf> if it outputted everything at once, wouldn't the bot be klined or something? :D
23:18:32 <calamari> it flushes automatically when waiting for input
23:18:33 <GregorR> So, there's no way I could out a prompted.
23:19:16 <GregorR> It's possible in C/C++ too.
23:19:21 <Aardwolf> include brainloller interpreter in it, the png version of lost kingdom would have been downloaded very fast :)
23:19:24 <GregorR> It's just not possible to do it from another process.
23:20:02 <Robdgreat> I'm running it through my bf->c converter, finally a satisfactory benchmark for it
23:20:20 <GregorR> Robdgreat: Test it against egobfc2m
23:22:02 -!- EsoBot has joined.
23:22:26 <calamari> !bf http://localhost/bf/LostKng.b
23:22:54 <Aardwolf> auch both bots use the same commands :s
23:22:55 <calamari> E!bf http://localhost/bf/LostKng.b
23:23:00 <EsoBot> (C) Jon Ripley 2004, 2005
23:23:02 <EsoBot> Brainfuck Edition v0.11
23:23:05 <EsoBot> To read the back-story enter '!'.
23:23:06 <EsoBot> For a list of commands enter '?'.
23:23:09 <EsoBot> Enable long room descriptions (Y/N) ?
23:23:29 <EsoBot> You are standing inside your ramshackle wooden hut. The squalor here has
23:23:29 <EsoBot> replaced the comfort and grandeur of your former royal palace. In one corner
23:23:31 <EsoBot> near the north door leading to your garden lies the pile of straw you use as
23:23:32 <EsoBot> a bed. Fixed in place by an unknown magic, next to a small table, is a wooden
23:23:34 <EsoBot> mockery of your former throne. The main door to the east leads outside to a
23:23:46 <EsoBot> a small wooden box of matches sitting on the table (2)
23:24:33 <jix> calamari: because it's annoying
23:25:28 <calamari> how about short room descriptions then hehe
23:25:35 <calamari> E!bf http://localhost/bf/LostKng.b
23:25:43 <EsoBot> (C) Jon Ripley 2004, 2005
23:25:44 <EsoBot> Brainfuck Edition v0.11
23:25:47 <jix> how about letting esobot join another channel...
23:25:47 <EsoBot> To read the back-story enter '!'.
23:25:48 <EsoBot> For a list of commands enter '?'.
23:25:51 <EsoBot> Enable long room descriptions (Y/N) ?
23:25:58 <EsoBot> 1:Aardwolf, 2:calamari
23:26:19 <EsoBot> You are in a small hut by a dirt road.
23:26:38 <jix> E!2 take matches
23:27:00 <EsoBot> You need to specify an item.
23:27:06 <Robdgreat> Operation completed in 591.80829906464 seconds
23:27:53 <calamari> Aardwolf: you don't need E! in a msg, you knew that right ?
23:27:58 <EsoBot> You are in an unkempt yard near an old shack.
23:29:08 <EsoBot> You can't go that way.
23:29:18 <EsoBot> You are in an unkempt yard overlooking a stagnant pond.
23:29:45 <EsoBot> You are in an unkempt yard near an old shack.
23:29:53 <EsoBot> You are in a small hut by a dirt road.
23:30:02 <EsoBot> You are on a dirt road.
23:30:14 <calamari> one thing about Ego's it'll be faster :)
23:30:19 <EsoBot> You are on a dirt road near a small forest.
23:30:29 <EsoBot> You are in a small forest.
23:30:30 <Aardwolf> well I ain't got my forest map here
23:30:36 <Aardwolf> and I'm not planning to get lost :D
23:30:51 <jix> does ego support prompt output (output without newline when input is requested ?)
23:30:53 <EsoBot> [Your score has just gone up by 5 points.]
23:30:58 <EsoBot> You are in a small forest.
23:31:01 <EsoBot> There are exits north, south, east and west.
23:31:20 <jix> are there any esolang prime programs that are more intelligent than simple sieve of e. ?
23:31:56 <Aardwolf> E!bf http://esoteric.sange.fi/brainfuck/utils/mandelbrot/mandelbrot.b
23:32:19 <EsoBot> AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABBBBBBBBBBBBBBBCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCDDDDDDDDDEGFFEEEEDDDDDDCCCCCCCCCBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBB
23:32:22 -!- GregorR_ has joined.
23:32:23 <EsoBot> AAAAAAAAAAAAAAABBBBBBBBBBBBBCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCDDDDDDDDDDEEEFGIIGFFEEEDDDDDDDDCCCCCCCCCBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBB
23:32:27 <EsoBot> AAAAAAAAAAAAABBBBBBBBBBBBCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCDDDDDDDDDDDDEEEEFFFI KHGGGHGEDDDDDDDDDCCCCCCCCCBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBB
23:32:27 <jix> they are flooding again
23:32:33 <EsoBot> AAAAAAAAAAAABBBBBBBBBBCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCDDDDDDDDDDDDDDEEEEEFFGHIMTKLZOGFEEDDDDDDDDDCCCCCCCCCBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBB
23:32:39 <GregorR_> WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOH! Network outages rock!
23:32:58 <Aardwolf> I was hoping for a smaller resolution mandelbrot
23:33:02 <GregorR_> EgoBot: YOU ARE DEAD! ADMIT IT!!!
23:33:06 -!- EgoBot has quit (Nick collision from services.).
23:33:07 <jix> maybe we get #1 chan on meme
23:33:17 -!- GregorR has quit (Nick collision from services.).
23:33:24 -!- GregorR_ has changed nick to GregorR.
23:33:54 <GregorR> Pff, power outages don't count.
23:36:28 <calamari> hmm.. what if you did program < input.. and input was a driver.. then you could know when input is being requested
23:37:23 <Aardwolf> and what if \n would be added automatically behind an input command?
23:37:35 -!- EgoBot has joined.
23:37:45 <calamari> Aardwolf: that has certain disadvantages
23:37:48 <jix> Aardwolf: problems
23:37:59 <jix> Aardwolf: rot13 does input output input output....
23:38:09 <jix> you get every char on its own line zhis way
23:39:16 <calamari> the solution jix came up with was to output \n on input if output was not empty
23:40:04 <calamari> that's impossible for GregorR without weird device hacks I think :)
23:40:18 <Aardwolf> well or an option auto\n that can be enabled for a certain process where it would be handy
23:40:30 <GregorR> You know what? EgoBot is GPL'd.
23:41:13 <calamari> speaking of that, I should upload EsoBot to comply with my gpl license :)
23:42:11 <Aardwolf> um, yeah, let me send it to you
23:42:23 <Robdgreat> I lacked the foresight to actually save it
23:42:35 <Aardwolf> or download it from the site, that will be faster
23:42:38 <Robdgreat> attempting to select the entire converted c code crashed my browser
23:42:50 <Aardwolf> http://jonripley.com/i-fiction/games/LostKingdomBF.zip
23:43:51 <Aardwolf> how to give egobot a befunge program?
23:51:56 <EgoBot> help ps kill i flush show
23:51:58 <EgoBot> 1l 2l adjust axo befunge bch bf glass glypho kipple malbolge pbrain rail sadol sceql udage01
23:52:06 <EsoBot> Commands: bf, cat, help, kill, ls, ps, quit, unnecessary.
23:52:35 <EsoBot> Commands: bf, cat, help, kill, ls, ps, quit, unnecessary.
23:52:49 <calamari> !befunge http://catseye.mine.nu:8080/projects/befunge93/eg/hello2.bf
23:54:02 <Aardwolf> maybe it's downloading slow again...
23:54:28 <calamari> !befunge 25*"!dlrow ,olleH">:#,_
23:55:55 <EgoBot> cp: cannot stat `./files/file://bf/LostKng': No such file or directory
23:56:55 <EgoBot> cp: cannot stat `./files/bf/LostKng': No such file or directory
23:57:05 <calamari> ran it with &.. so I guess I'll never know what broke it
23:57:41 <EgoBot> (C) Jon Ripley 2004, 2005
23:57:43 -!- EsoBot has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
23:57:43 <EgoBot> Brainfuck Edition v0.11
23:57:47 <EgoBot> To read the back-story enter '!'.
23:57:49 <EgoBot> For a list of commands enter '?'.
23:57:59 <EgoBot> Enable long room descriptions (Y/N) ?
23:58:09 <EgoBot> You are in a small hut by a dirt road.
23:58:33 <calamari> Aardwolf: I killed it.. became unresponsive
23:58:33 <EgoBot> You scored 0 points out of a possible 100.
23:58:35 <EgoBot> You have earned the rank of Amateur.