00:11:19 -!- GregorR-L has joined. 00:16:40 I'm beginning to get the hang of Dvorak :) 00:17:22 I'm still slow, but I'm basically accurate 00:28:23 Bye all! 00:28:35 -!- Sgep has quit. 01:02:51 -!- klutzy has joined. 01:04:48 -!- klutzh has quit (calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 01:58:26 -!- ChanServ has quit (Shutting Down). 01:58:57 -!- ChanServ has joined. 01:58:57 -!- irc.freenode.net has set channel mode: +o ChanServ. 02:00:12 -!- duerig has joined. 02:00:52 Hello? 02:02:29 hi 02:02:42 How are you? 02:02:49 I'm ok :) you? 02:02:53 Doing good. 02:03:27 You interested in taking a peek at a new esoteric language? I just put it on the esolang wiki and am looking for feedback about it. 02:03:35 Rail? 02:03:39 Yeah. 02:03:40 Hehe. 02:03:53 I've looked briefly at it 02:04:02 looks interesting 02:04:06 Thanks. 02:04:31 a really comprehensive article too :) 02:04:44 probably one of the biggest on the wiki 02:04:50 Hahaha. Yeah. I basically uploaded my design document and wiki-fied it. 02:05:09 But I've made some changes to hopefully make it easier to comprehend for others. 02:06:00 I noticed the article didn't say who invented it, or when. would you mind adding that? 02:06:03 This is also my first submission on the wiki, though I've been lurking for a while. 02:06:06 Oh. Sure. 02:06:09 Good point. 02:06:18 you don't have to use your real name if you don't want to 02:06:31 but it is nice to have something at least 02:07:10 *nod* 02:07:14 ㅜㅐㅇ 02:07:17 oops 02:07:19 sorry 02:07:28 my fingers something wrong 02:08:21 Oh. For a second I thought there was some new language using the a and '?'. Hahaha 02:12:09 Done. 02:12:44 I now have an account, and have attributed the invention of 'Rail' to it. 02:13:24 Thanks for reminding me of that. 02:15:53 -!- GregorR-L has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 02:21:18 btw, kipple, if you feel like playing around with the interpreter at all, there is a quick-and-dirty interactive mode which lets you see the program counter move around as you step through the program. 02:21:37 I was just looking at the usage info :) 02:23:26 Ah. Nifty. The trick is to define a special input and output file because the interactive mode takes over stdin and stdout. 02:24:45 what does this mean? "Any number of lines may precede the one with the '$' on the far left." 02:24:57 that you can write comments and such on lines above the $? 02:25:05 Yeah. 02:25:08 And they don't matter. 02:25:27 You can write comments in the code itself if they are surrounded by whitespace. 02:25:36 yeah 02:26:22 I should rephrase that so its clearer. 02:26:39 it shouldn't be under the hello world example 02:26:51 Ok. *scribbles down a note* 02:27:08 IMHO it should be wherever you talk about the $ 02:28:08 *nod* 02:29:02 is the # mandatory? 02:29:36 Yeah. 02:29:44 can you have more than one? 02:29:47 Yep. 02:30:49 Nifty. I'm taking notes on your questions. Then I can add fixes to the article appropriately later on. 02:31:07 hehe: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Special:Longpages 02:31:42 Wow. I'm only beat out by bf constants. 02:32:04 I suppose this is a consequence of designing a maximalist kind of language. 02:32:06 Haha 02:32:47 I don't understand this sentence "The universal junction, '*', allows a train entering in any direction to leave in the opposite direction." 02:33:03 that sounds just like @ to me (and that has to be wrong) 02:33:15 Enter from east. Leaves to west, for instance. 02:33:20 I'll make that clearer. 02:33:56 entering from east and leaving to the west is just going straight forward... 02:34:05 Yeah. That is basically it. 02:34:17 The confusion is that enter and leave are opposites. 02:34:25 So two opposites cancel each other out. 02:34:35 And that is my awkward phrasing. Haha. 02:34:37 ah, I think I see now 02:34:38 I'll be sure to fix taht. 02:34:50 Er that. 02:35:13 I though those junctions were supposed to be used for control flow 02:35:22 but they don't do they? 02:35:24 The junctions for control flow are the y-junctions. 02:35:34 The other junctions are just for passing through. 02:35:36 yeah, I read a bit further and saw that 02:35:39 Like the skip instruction in PATH. 02:35:40 Ok. 02:35:52 On the list of things to fix. Thanks. You are being most helpful! 02:35:59 :) 02:37:07 have you played transport tycoon? 02:37:51 *shakes* 02:38:04 it's a rail building game 02:38:07 I played railroad tycoon obsessively for a while, though. And a-train. 02:38:19 Those are older, I believe. 02:38:28 But that kind of thing is how I envision it. :) 02:38:42 there was a guy here who posted screenshots of logic circuits made with Transport Tycoon some days ago 02:38:48 Wow. 02:38:54 Interesting coincidence. 02:38:57 or the Open source clone, I think 02:39:13 Hmm. That would be quite interesting. I'll have to google for it. 02:39:33 don't remember who 02:40:03 *nod* 02:45:28 is true and false 't' and 'f' or 0 and 1 (or both)? 02:48:03 The command to push true is 't'. The command to push false is 'f'. 02:48:20 The actual representations on the stack are "1" and "0" respectively. 02:48:24 That is a bit confusing. 02:48:27 Hmm. 02:48:32 What do you suggest I do about it? 02:48:33 so you can push 0 and 1 if you want to instead? 02:48:36 Yeah. 02:48:43 In fact the digits just push themselves on the stack. 02:51:00 http://gehennom.org/~fis/ttd_logic/, if you're interested. 02:51:21 Oh. Thanks. 02:52:33 (It's ~05 am in this time-zone, so I'll probably be asleep soon.) 02:52:48 only 4am here ;) 02:53:33 Wow. It is night here. 02:54:00 Y'all must be half way around the world. 02:55:40 how do you duplicate the top of the stack? 02:56:29 With variables. One of the examples I give is a function called 'dup' which does that. 02:56:35 ah :) 02:56:43 I don't have it inbuilt 'cuz you can do it with other primitives. :) 02:56:55 Same with swap, drop, and other stack operations. 02:58:09 Thanks for the link, fizzie. It looks very interesting. 02:58:27 Vaguely similar to my efforts a while ago to implement Brainfuck in ZZT. 02:58:32 Though more successful. 03:03:08 I'll have to try out open transport tycoon deluxe. It looks fun. 03:03:34 It needs the datafiles from the commercial game, though. 03:03:51 I've been thinking about optimizing the space-usage of the constructs a bit, and then adding a "plant an and/or/xor gate here in this direction" tool to OpenTTD gui. I already got complaints about the 4-bit adder being too unnatural-looking and lacking scenery. 03:03:56 Eh? Dagnabit. 03:04:29 That sounds nifty. 03:04:40 (Those are available at some "abandonware"-type sites, with dubious legality.) Erh, exam-day tomorrow. I sleeps now. -> 03:04:43 Though proving that it can be done gets you lots of coolness points. 03:04:59 Take care. 03:08:28 gotta get some sleep too. bye 03:08:58 So long. 03:19:32 Anyone else around? 03:28:17 No 03:33:38 hardly. 03:34:16 lol 03:34:51 Hello. 03:35:02 Hi. 03:36:45 I'm the guy who just added 'rail' to the esolang wiki. So I'm hanging out here trying to get people to glance at it and give me feeback. 03:36:53 On the language or how its presented in the article. 03:38:02 Yeah, I know. 03:38:19 Haven't tried it yet, though. 03:38:24 I see. 03:38:43 Well, let me know if you do. Negative feedback or positive feedback, both are helpful. 03:38:54 OK 03:39:41 btw, I like Glass. 03:40:16 I was interested to note that the method of distinguishing various multi-character stuff is similar to that of rail. 03:40:31 But I really like the combination of oo with an explicit stack. 03:41:06 Heheh :) 03:41:22 It's pretty evil >: ) 03:43:11 Yet more proof that a language designer can be evil in any paradigm. Haha. 03:45:45 btw, what is the EgoBot? 03:46:06 !glass {M[m(_o)O!"I run code!"(_o)o.?]} 03:46:08 I run code! 03:47:14 !brainfuck >+++++++++[<++++++++>-]<.>+++++++[<++++>-]<+.+++++++..+++.>>>++++++++[<++++>-]<.>>>++++++++++[<+++++++++>-]<---.<<<<.+++.------.--------.>>+. 03:47:28 Oh well. 03:47:34 It's !bf 03:47:35 What languages does the EgoBot run? 03:47:36 Ah. 03:47:42 !bf >+++++++++[<++++++++>-]<.>+++++++[<++++>-]<+.+++++++..+++.>>>++++++++[<++++>-]<.>>>++++++++++[<+++++++++>-]<---.<<<<.+++.------.--------.>>+. 03:47:42 Hello World! 03:47:46 Haha. 03:47:48 Cool! 03:47:54 !help 03:47:56 help ps kill i flush show 03:47:59 1l 2l axo befunge bch bf glass glypho kipple malbolge pbrain sadol sceql udage01 03:48:27 How does it do 2l? I thought that was a 2d language? 03:49:12 !show 03:49:14 !glass http://pastebin.ca/raw/26890 03:49:14 No such process! 03:49:25 I run code from URLs too! 03:49:25 I need to make sub-help, show just shows the current output buffer ;) 03:49:35 Ah. 03:50:06 Awesome *shakes the EgoBot's hand*. 03:50:28 What is the EgoBot programmed in? Tell me bf and I'll be really impressed. :-) 03:50:31 You could shake my hand, since I wrote it :-P 03:50:33 C++ 03:51:14 * duerig awards GregorR 7 coolness points. 03:51:17 Hahaha 03:51:32 Good work. I like it. 03:52:07 C++ is my language of choice. You might say that I'm a C++ weenie. 03:52:21 lol 03:52:36 I switch between C and C++ for non-web-based things. 03:52:49 Some programs are better for a structural approach, others for an OO approach *shrugs* 03:52:50 I'm one of those poor souls who actually has a copy of the standard and refers to it. 03:52:55 True. 03:54:04 Oh, and 2L too (since you mentioned it) :P 03:55:27 Nifty. 03:55:34 Rail is my first esoteric language. 03:56:49 Oh, don't worry: Soon enough you'll have four and be able to say "Wow, that was a waste of my life" :-P 03:58:50 Hahaha. I actually feel like I am learning a lot. One of my research interests is programming languages and compilers. It is really interesting to write an interpreter for such non-traditional languages. 03:59:13 Ahh, well this is true. 03:59:23 BTW, look at Glass for an example of how not to write an interpreter. 03:59:50 Also, it helps give me flexibility. Too much time spent programming in C++ blinds you to alternative ways of doing things. 04:00:10 Also true. 04:00:13 What did you do that is bad? 04:00:36 Well, the /process/ is sound, but the code is overly complex and not very cohesive :P 04:01:05 too much time spent programming in C++ also rots your brain 04:01:27 OMGWTF Python SUX0RZ ROFLMAOOLOLOLOLOL 04:01:36 :P 04:01:41 What is your language of choice, lament? 04:01:53 duerig: Python SUX0RZ :) 04:02:02 Ah. 04:02:07 It's a local dialect of Python. 04:02:12 Hahaha. 04:02:17 It's basically Python translated to AOL n00b speak. 04:02:21 at least, python is what i actually write stuff in. Haskell, Smalltalk or whatever is what i would use if i were smarter. 04:03:09 *crosses himself* You shouldn't mention the term 'Haskell'. Just refer to it as the 'Scottish language'. Don't you know that it is evil? That it is cursed?!?!? :-) 04:03:19 it is? 04:03:34 Yeah. Any language with more than four arrow operators is automatically cursed. 04:03:38 Hahaha 04:03:46 hm 04:04:00 but four is fine?! 04:04:03 Yep. 04:04:11 that seems kinda arbitrary 04:04:19 anyway, in haskell anything can be an operator 04:04:22 Actually, I can't program in it because it is hard to wrap my head around programming with lazy execution. 04:04:25 Exactly! 04:04:26 so it doesn't really matter what is and what isn't 04:04:36 and yes, i can't program in it either 04:04:41 which is why i said, "if i were smarter" 04:04:44 Hahaha 04:05:47 I haven't really used Smalltalk. 04:05:51 OCaml is fun, though. 04:06:31 yeah but ocaml is like haskell for dummies. 04:06:56 -!- kipple has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 04:07:43 -!- Arrogant has joined. 04:07:46 I once took a class on 'practical functional programming'. We were allowed to choose our own language for the course. Only one person was brave enough to pick Haskell. He showed us his code once and all our eyes bugged out. 04:08:15 what did everyone else choose, C++? 04:08:30 btw, GregorR, I think its funny that you use 'Klass' for class. Makes sense, but funny. 04:08:43 Haskell is pretty esoteric <3 04:09:05 Oh. Since the class was about functional programming languages, we had to choose one of those. About half the class picked Scheme and the other half picked OCaml. 04:09:13 True. 04:09:16 duerig: Well, class is reserved :-P 04:09:22 i kinda hate scheme 04:09:27 i used to like it 04:09:29 Haskell is a great language though. 04:09:31 Yeah. I know. I probably would have done something like 'ClassT'. 04:09:34 but for any actual work, it's so incredibly verbose 04:09:37 But that is just my bias. 04:09:39 and a pain 04:09:41 Never used O'Caml 04:09:42 Your solution makes sense. :) 04:10:00 scheme and haskell are both conceptually pretty, but scheme is ugly in practice 04:10:17 I just have a fundamental allergy to dynamic typing. 04:10:20 (or maybe that's just me) 04:10:21 Like Perl ;) 04:10:28 If I can't say 'that is a list' to the compiler, I always feel like I have to check. 04:10:29 duerig: me too. That's why I prefer Python. 04:10:32 oh 04:10:34 dynamic 04:10:37 i thought you said static :P 04:10:42 Hahaha. 04:10:58 don't bother looking at smalltalk, then 04:11:16 Arrogant, interested in giving me feedback about a new esoteric language? 04:11:41 lament, it is ok when I'm making something small, but it feels more cumbersome to me when making something large. 04:12:03 large things consist of small things :) 04:12:28 A good software engineer, lament. 04:12:33 No. Large things consist of combinations of small things. Is the n choose 2 possible combinations that scare me. :) 04:12:37 A good software engineer, lament is. 04:13:01 duerig: in short, programming sucks. 04:13:07 lol 04:13:12 Hahaha. But I'm addicted. 04:13:12 whichever solution you use, it's still crappy 04:13:19 It is like heroine. Too late for me now. :) 04:13:21 dynamic typing is a mess 04:13:24 static typing is a pain 04:13:36 * GregorR luuuuuuuvs programming. 04:14:07 Yeah. I like static typing, but that is just because it seems too evil. 04:14:10 Er less evil. 04:14:38 static typing forces you to think about the types 04:14:48 Umm ... yes .... 04:14:51 which forces you to design the program in a certain way 04:15:00 I've just had a great idea for a new esoteric language! This would be evil because it would force you to qualify everything with a type, but wouldn't check the types! It'd be the worst of both worlds! Hahaha 04:15:02 which might not be pleasant or smart 04:15:09 duerig: hahahah 04:15:43 each variable must have at least four type qualifiers 04:15:51 Hahaha. Yep. 04:15:54 short long static volatile int *foo; 04:16:14 foo = (short long static volatile int *) 42; 04:16:19 print foo; // prints 42 04:16:31 cast is required of course. 04:16:36 Yep. 04:16:49 duerig: i think that language already exists 04:16:52 it's called C :) 04:17:03 Granted. Haha. 04:17:10 Pfff. 04:17:25 You can rag on C all you want, it's still a great language for structured programming. 04:17:44 C is pretty 04:17:50 Actually, regarding the dynamic vs. static typing thing, The esoteric language I just created is dynamically typed, but I wrote it in C++ because I prefer static types. 04:17:53 in some strange way 04:17:56 Which is a bit ironic. 04:18:15 duerig: i bet i could write an interpreter in Python faster than you wrote it in C++! 04:18:22 lol 04:18:22 Granted. 04:18:40 But I bet that after I wrote my interpreter in C++ I could change it easier. 04:18:54 I bet not! because your interpreter is statically typed! 04:19:05 ................................. 04:19:06 you would have the extra work of having to change the types 04:19:13 anyway, blah 04:19:17 fuck types 04:19:20 Don't mean to start a language war. 04:19:21 forth rules 04:19:22 Whether in Python or C++, it's bad practice to change a=7 to a="blah". 04:19:23 I agree. 04:19:28 no types at all 04:19:29 Fuck types! 04:19:31 Forth rules! 04:19:53 GregorR: not always! 04:20:02 GregorR: it might be good sometimes. 04:20:13 in fact 04:20:16 i do it all the time! 04:20:38 (every time hoping that maybe this time it will be good) 04:20:45 Give me an example of a /good/ --- :P 04:21:04 hell i even change loop indices to strings because it's prettier that way. 04:21:12 lol 04:21:20 Dictionaries 04:21:21 Hahaha. 04:21:30 iteritems 04:21:42 for (i = "zero"; strless(i, "ten"); strplusplus(i)) { ... } 04:21:54 lament, you should try my esolang Rail. It is like forth but without all that pesky 'efficiency' stuff. 04:22:11 duerig: have you looked at False? 04:22:19 GregorR: I love how incredibly off that is! 04:22:29 duerig: and where's your esolang? 04:23:08 http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Rail 04:23:11 Arrogant: ? 04:23:20 Forth is actually just one of the influences. 04:23:26 I've looked at False. Looking again. 04:23:33 I'd forgotten it. 04:23:42 F! "I wish I was part of EgoBot!" 04:23:42 I wish I was part of EgoBot! 04:24:31 wow, Rail seems complicated. 04:24:57 F! "I wish people would stop putting words in my mouth!" 04:24:57 I wish people would stop putting words in my mouth! 04:25:19 Its just forth in a 2-dimensional language with lists, closures, and GC tacked on. Hahaha 04:25:43 forth with lists and closures 04:25:49 you know of Joy? 04:26:06 *shake* 04:26:21 shake which way? :) 04:26:47 Oh. Shake no. 04:26:49 Nope. 04:26:56 oh 04:26:59 definitely have a look at it 04:27:02 lament: "Shaking" yes is nodding ;) 04:27:14 because it's forth with closures, lists and GC tacked on 04:27:22 there's a channel for it somewhere 04:27:24 called sometihng stupid 04:27:35 #concatenative i think 04:27:58 it's very one-dimensional though 04:27:58 Oh. But Rail is two-dimensional too. 04:28:03 But now I feel less creative. :) 04:28:05 reminds of Forth and Scheme at the same time. Pretty neat. 04:28:24 (and of course a huge pain to deal with because of the goddamn stack!) 04:28:24 Cool. I'm bookmarking the page. 04:28:35 Hahaha. Stacks are fun. 04:28:39 fun 04:28:46 but 04:28:49 inconvenient :) 04:29:03 -!- wildhalcyon has joined. 04:29:08 That is the essence of a good esolang. Fun, but inconvenient. :) 04:29:09 moin 04:29:17 yes 04:29:20 Greetings. 04:29:28 I think that is why there are so many stack-based esolangs. 04:29:30 battle of the bots.. when'd sadol join in the fun? 04:30:03 Err, recently :P 04:30:11 * GregorR defers wildhalcyon to the logs ;) 04:30:15 duerig: no, i think that's why there's so few flat-random-access-memory esolangs, and so many esolangs with all other possible memory setups 04:30:28 lament: Granted. 04:30:46 * wildhalcyon avoids the many days of logs he's missed due to reasons which he loathes 04:31:19 wildhalcyon: oh yeah, the bots. There's falsebot, and there's the impostors. 04:31:31 EgoBot and SadolBot, ignore them, they're evil 04:31:41 !help 04:31:43 help ps kill i flush show 04:31:46 1l 2l axo befunge bch bf glass glypho kipple malbolge pbrain sadol sceql udage01 04:31:48 I knew of falsebot, and egobot 04:31:49 Now all we need is some form of corewars. Where bots try to get other bots to execute inimical programs. 04:32:01 !glass {M[m(_o)O!"OMG I can interpret so many languages (including sadol)!"(_o)o.?]} 04:32:05 OMG I can interpret so many languages (including sadol)! 04:32:06 duerig: i was thinking of actually having something like corewars here 04:32:13 FYB!!!!!! 04:32:27 but corewars itself would likely not be too popular 04:32:47 Granted. 04:33:03 FukYorBraaaaaaane!!!! 04:33:10 maybe a bot conducting a computer rock-paper-scissor competition among user-submitted programs. 04:33:20 I think it would be an interesting exercise to write a looping quine from the bots - bot 1 outputs the commands for bot 2 which... outputs the commands for bot n, which outputs the original command to bot 1 04:33:22 But then those programs would all have to be written in some specific language 04:33:32 AHHHHHHH, FYB FYB FFYB FYB FYB!!!!! 04:33:33 and that's not cool 04:33:41 :P 04:33:53 wildhalcyon: we already had that 04:34:04 I fixed it :) 04:34:14 oh... I guess I have missed a lot 04:34:16 (it cheated by using variables) 04:34:25 Ah. 04:34:27 !ANSWER;! 04:34:32 F!ANSWER;! 04:34:32 Error: Argument to ! is not a function 04:34:36 Did the bots get bored with it eventually? 04:34:38 F!ANSWER;. 04:34:38 42 04:34:45 btw, wildhalcyon, interested in giving feedback on a new esoteric language? 04:34:55 ALWAYS duerig! 04:35:26 http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Rail 04:36:05 Ah, I saw that on the wiki earlier.. didn't have time to do much more than scroll down the page 04:36:18 Reminds me a bit of spiral, only.. I think this might be designed a little better 04:37:18 Not that I believe any esolang has design as a fundamental criterion. Except maybe Piet. Esolang-as-art! 04:38:17 Spiral is nifty. You have to hand it to any language which can make the "Hello, World!" program actually look like hello, world. 04:38:35 Im not knocking spiral at all 04:38:45 I think its a lovely esolang 04:38:49 much better than glypho 04:39:51 Well, one of my design criterion for Rail was that it had to allow for functional abstraction. Hence actual variable names and function names. 04:40:24 Which means that in theory you can do something big with it. 04:40:36 But currently it is as slow as Gehenna, so it may not be practical to do so. :) 04:40:41 Yeah, functions are nifty sometimes. They're like socially acceptable gotos 04:40:57