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00:15:05 <Aardwolf> my deepest condolences to stux, shame he had to be banned when he tried to help
00:17:19 <kipple> yeah. hopefully he wont be scared away
00:18:51 <Aardwolf> graue really is harsh, I remember when I fixed that spelling error :p
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00:46:53 <graue> hey, I have an idea
00:47:07 <graue> on the wiki, instead of that overkill "year category" thing, why don't we do a [[timeline of esoteric programming languages]]
00:47:27 <graue> then we could add analysis of what inspired what and suchlike
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00:48:29 <graue> I guess P'' now counts as the first esoteric programming language?
00:48:44 <graue> it's funny having INTERCAL be second all of a sudden
00:48:52 <kipple> the advantage of the category approach is that you don't have to edit the article averytime you add a new language
00:49:06 <graue> well, only "notable" languages should be included in the timeline
00:49:10 <kipple> but having a proper article gives more options
00:49:30 <kipple> deciding what is notable is not too easy though
00:49:42 <graue> there are some languages that someone just made in a few hours and nobody noticed and no programs were written by anyone else
00:49:53 <graue> Archway, 1L-a, Braincopter, etc
00:50:56 <kipple> personally I don't see the problem with having a category for each year (at least for > 1990)
00:51:19 <kipple> but a timeline article might be a good compromise
00:52:16 <kipple> whether or not P" counts is an interesting topic :)
00:52:34 <graue> P prime prime, though, not P quotation mark
00:53:13 <Aardwolf> the fact that you just mentioned those languages makes them notable :D
00:53:31 <kipple> I'd say P'' is not an esolang.
00:54:31 <graue> no, being mentioned in #esoteric as an example of a nonnotable language does not make an esolang notable
00:55:00 <graue> and I'm not saying those were not all cool ideas
00:55:10 <graue> but nobody has really explored them (yet)
00:55:15 <graue> so they're not history
00:55:20 <Aardwolf> by the way, I suppose that if I'd suggest an esolang forum, you'd say the talk pages are the forum, right?
00:55:37 <graue> I'd prefer if people went back to using the esolang mailing list
00:55:56 <graue> however, given that nobody seems to want to do that, a forum might be an okay substitute
00:56:16 <kipple> the talk pages are not ideal anyway
00:56:34 <Aardwolf> forums take a lot of bandwidth tho
00:56:38 <graue> they are ideal for talking about the wiki itself, directly, but not for talking about the subject matter
00:56:54 <kipple> the nice thing about a web forum is that people can browse it without being members
00:57:28 <kipple> mailing list archive are seldom as easy to browse
00:57:36 <graue> you can "browse" the archives at esoteric.sange.fi, but they are pretty raw
00:57:52 <kipple> threads and subforums are very nice to have
00:58:17 <Aardwolf> on a newsgroup on the other hand...
00:59:47 <kipple> about the bandwidth: I don't think that will be a problem in this case
01:01:09 <kipple> graue: is the wiki using much bandwidth?
01:01:36 <graue> I haven't been monitoring it, but probably not
01:02:03 <graue> people grabbing the 1.7 MB backup daily might be using a lot of bandwidth
01:02:06 <graue> other than that, it should be fine
01:02:35 <kipple> yeah. I'm nice and only grabs it once a week ;)
01:05:09 <calamari> E!bf http://kidsquid.com/pumpkin.b
01:11:47 <cpressey> if P'' is an esolang, then so is the lambda calculus
01:22:56 <graue> they both belong in a timeline either way
01:25:11 <kipple> how should we structure the timeline article?
01:25:19 <kipple> a subheading for each year?
01:25:45 <graue> by subheading you mean ==subheading==?
01:25:56 <kipple> probably a better word for it
01:26:39 <kipple> I guess a lot of years will be pretty much empty
01:27:00 <graue> well, don't include headings for those then
01:27:12 <graue> I thought you meant a subheading for each year in which something actually happened
01:27:31 <kipple> well, yeah. that's the way to do it I guess
01:28:28 <graue> so should I set up an esolang forum?
01:29:45 <kipple> I think stuff like the works in progress articles in the wiki would be better to have in a forum, and not in the wiki
01:30:56 <graue> I agree 10000000000%
01:34:57 <graue> yeah, it allows everyone else in here to agree 0% while the average agreement level remains above 100%
01:36:29 <Aardwolf> not if someone agrees a negative percentage
01:37:40 <graue> well, then I'll just agree NaN% and mess everything up and we'll have to do a recount
01:38:02 <graue> anyone feel like making a favicon.ico file out of the three-limes logo?
01:49:14 <kipple> http://rune.krokodille.com/lang/wiki.ico
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02:08:40 <graue> http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/forum/
02:10:13 <duerig> Somebody should make a thread.
02:10:19 <graue> maybe it can be you!
02:10:24 <graue> who does this, I mean
02:11:33 <duerig> The only thread topics I can think of off hand are boring, "Welcome to the forum!", or dumb, "First Post!", or self-serving "Isn't Rail cool!?!?". Hahaha. So it'd better be somebody else.
02:20:16 <graue> I started a timeline, although it is very sketchy and incomplete
02:21:16 <graue> I can't type the letters with accents in "Bohm" and "Muller", so someone will have to fix that for me
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02:28:14 <cpressey> graue: btw, your C-like language looks interesting (that was yours, wasn't it?)
02:28:51 <graue> I have not had time to learn how to use lex and yacc in order to implement it
02:29:35 <cpressey> ehh, they're overrated anyway :) recursive descent parsing is easy enough to do by hand
02:30:22 <cpressey> you could add a third type, "truth-value", just to make things a royal mess
02:31:21 <graue> how is that different from boolean?
02:32:07 <cpressey> how is 'bit' different from boolean? other than you have imposed arbitrary restrictions on its usage?
02:32:10 <cpressey> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Truth_value
02:32:16 <graue> well, how would the arbitrary restrictions differ?
02:32:20 <cpressey> you could insist they only appear in truth-tables, or something similar
02:32:54 <graue> seems a little non-orthogonal to me
02:33:57 <graue> the bit-vs-bool distinction is based on arguments raised in regards to an actual programming language (D)
02:34:18 <graue> some people argued that D should have bools in addition to just bits, and that bits should allow arithmetic and bools logical operations, but not vice-versa
02:50:24 <duerig> I agree with that argument. Think of the conversions. Often you'll want to convert an int to a bool meaning 0 is false and anything else is true.
02:50:44 <duerig> Whereas if you want to convert an int to some small bitfield (like 1), you'll want to convert it mod 2.
02:52:06 <duerig> What is the c-like language called, btw?
02:52:44 <graue> "bitlang", temporarily
02:53:02 <graue> http://www.voxelperfect.net:3875/esolang/bitlang.txt
02:53:17 <duerig> Ack. Whyfor evil port number?
02:54:58 <graue> what's so "evil" about it?
02:55:25 <duerig> Well, I have to view the page using lynx 'cuz I don't want to make a special exception in my firewall for one webpage.
02:55:36 <duerig> Usually, websites use port 80. or 443 if they are going over SSL.
02:55:48 <duerig> Its not 'evil', exactly. Just odd.
02:55:50 <graue> you must have to make a lot of exceptions... nyud.net is 8090, lots of pages are 8000 and 8080
02:55:57 <duerig> And a bit inconvenient. :)
02:56:06 <graue> in any event, that's my computer and the ISP filters port 80
02:56:07 <duerig> I've never been to nyud.net.
02:56:48 <duerig> I was just wondering why.
02:58:33 <duerig> A pity about your ISP.
02:58:38 <duerig> This looks like a nifty language.
02:58:43 <graue> cpressey, maybe you have some ideas for enhancing this: http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Timeline_of_esoteric_programming_languages
03:01:04 <graue> what year was Piet made in?
03:01:15 <graue> (clearly 2002 or earlier, since it was in the 2002 MIT mystery hunt thing)
03:02:03 <duerig> Graue, Why disallow '==' for bools? It is just 'if and only if' which makes sense in the context of bools. Did I miss something?
03:04:14 <graue> == is "1 if both arguments are equal, 0 otherwise"
03:04:41 <duerig> Which is identical to the truth table for 'if and only if'.
03:05:20 <duerig> A B A <=> B (if and only if):
03:05:22 <graue> for a bool, you should never do "== 1" or "== 0", since it's redundant, or in the second case, !() should be used
03:05:30 <graue> so I intended to disallow that
03:05:55 <graue> if you want a == b, where a and b are bools, you can do if ((a & b) || (!a & !b))
03:06:04 <graue> er, substitute | for || there
03:06:17 <duerig> So no exlusive or either.
03:06:47 <graue> or you can do if (bit2bool(bool2bit(a) + bool2bit(b)))
03:07:16 <graue> that would be equivalent to if (!(a == b))
03:07:25 <GregorR> How about an overloaded b2b for that ;) :P
03:08:51 <graue> there are no built-in functions except getchar() and putchar()
03:09:48 <duerig> Wait, can there be bool arrays?
03:11:32 <duerig> Hmmm... One problem here is that many bit-arithmetic things will be quite a bit harder. Many involve bizarre combinations of addition, equality, and other logic operators.
03:11:36 <kipple> graue: the timeline article is nice
03:11:51 <graue> kipple: great! it is missing Piet though because I don't have the year of creation for that
03:12:13 <kipple> yeah. I remember having wondered about that myself
03:12:20 <kipple> guess we could ask DMM
03:12:41 <kipple> I'm wondering about this one though: "Kipple is invented, and turns out to be the first esolang to rise to prominence in which the use of stacks is a defining characteristic."
03:12:57 <kipple> seems to me there are tons of stack-based languages
03:13:05 <graue> anyone aware of a counterexample is encouraged to edit the page
03:13:13 <duerig> Does kipple predate Befunge? Befunge is the earliest one that comes to mind with that.
03:13:16 <graue> Befunge uses stacks of course, but it's known for the 2D, not for the stacks
03:13:27 <graue> Kipple came 10 years later
03:13:44 <duerig> Hmm. Does the HP RPN language count as an esolang?
03:13:56 <duerig> I remember playing around with that a bit on my graphics calculator a few years ago.
03:13:58 <graue> if it was invented for serious use, it doesn't count
03:14:15 <duerig> Ok. I suppose it doesn't count then.
03:14:31 <graue> the intent is an important thing; otherwise, APL might count as an esoteric language
03:14:56 <graue> by the dictionary meaning of 'esoteric', it is one
03:17:41 <duerig> APL, FORTH, the languages in esolang, and a turing machine are all in the same category in my mind. The category of languages that I would only ever program in for fun. But you are correct that the creator's intention is the only way to have anything like an objective definition.
03:19:09 <duerig> cpressey, you still live?
03:20:25 <duerig> When I read the truth value article on wikipedia, I remembered this recent daily WTF entry which was entertaining: http://thedailywtf.com/forums/47844/ShowPost.aspx
03:22:58 <duerig> graue, I like your language. The only suggestion I'd make to improve it is to allow foreach to iterate over multiple arrays simultaneously. You'll be able to make sure that the cardinality of the various arrays are equal.
03:26:54 -!- graue has set topic: #esoteric,.
03:27:20 <duerig> Lets discuss the metaphysical significance of #esoteric.
03:27:27 -!- graue has set topic: #esoteric, the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment - wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/ - forum: http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/forum/ - logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ or http://meme.b9.com/cdates.html?channel=esoteric - falsebot: F!<false>, EgoBot: !help - map: http://www.frappr.com/esolang.
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03:30:53 <GregorR> Let's change the order to confuse him.
03:31:59 -!- GregorR has set topic: #esoteric, the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment - map: http://www.frappr.com/esolang - forum: http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/forum/ - falsebot: F!<false>, EgoBot: !help - wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/ -logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ or http://meme.b9.com/cdates.html?channel=esoteric.
03:32:11 -!- GregorR has set topic: #esoteric, the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment - map: http://www.frappr.com/esolang - forum: http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/forum/ - falsebot: F!<false>, EgoBot: !help - wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/ - logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ or http://meme.b9.com/cdates.html?channel=esoteric.
03:33:30 <duerig> I wonder if he will notice.
03:33:42 <duerig> Unless he reads the logs.
03:35:11 <duerig> Did you read graue's bitlang document?
03:35:49 <duerig> What would you think about a variant like this:
03:35:57 <Arrogant> Actually, that article reminds me of Haskell.
03:36:08 <duerig> You can make arbitrary lists of stuff equal to other arbitrary lists of stuff.
03:37:00 <duerig> Like if you wanted to implement bitwise-or as in C, you'd have function body that looked like:
03:37:21 <duerig> return a[0-7] | b[0-7];
03:37:33 <duerig> Which would or each one of the lists and return a bitarray of the results.
03:38:30 <duerig> Or if you took four arguments and wanted to return a bit-array of the first two or-ed together with the second two, you could do something like:
03:38:48 <duerig> return (a, b) | (c, d);
03:38:52 <duerig> Maybe not that syntax.
03:38:57 <duerig> But do you get the idea?
03:39:24 <duerig> Essentially you could make bitarrays of stuff arbitrarily in expressions.
03:49:54 <duerig> My paper got rejected! No trip to Barcelona for me. :(
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05:15:50 <Robdgreat> !bf +++++++++++[>++++++>+<<-]>+.>-[.[-],]
05:19:38 <GregorR> Was that the desired result?
05:26:02 <Robdgreat> I don't even remember what it was supposed to be
05:26:46 <GregorR> I just recently started up "The Anti-Smoker Forums" 8-D
05:27:11 <GregorR> An addendum to my already-existing "treat smokers like scum" site.
05:27:21 <GregorR> First time I've ever been a moderator on any forum XD
05:28:28 <lament> treat smokers like scum?
05:29:05 <GregorR> I figure, if society treated smokers like subhumans rather than victims, there would be a lot more pressure to stop smoking.
05:29:28 <GregorR> With society treating smokers as victims, even if smoking isn't viewed as "cool" it will still be done.
05:31:21 <lament> perhaps we should treat C++ programmers like scum, too
05:31:37 <lament> otherwise, even if programming C++ isn't viewed as "cool" it will still be done
05:31:38 <Robdgreat> hell, why not treat everybody like scum
05:32:34 <GregorR> I advocate for treating smokers like scum because they hurt everybody around them. They might as well just have a knife and stab everybody in the throat as they walk by.
05:33:41 <lament> I think smokers should be crucified alongside busy highways
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05:34:59 <calamari> well, I understand the linux boot / shutdown process slightly better now :)
05:35:00 <Robdgreat> everybody has something about them that offends somebody else
05:35:09 <GregorR> calamari: El teh w00t, init 0 !
05:35:18 <Robdgreat> how about all of humanity just commit mass suicide
05:35:55 <calamari> Robdgreat: sounds good.. you first ;)
05:36:19 <Robdgreat> but didn't want to be a hateful jackass ;)
05:36:20 <lament> GregorR: how about treating drivers like scum?
05:36:27 <calamari> well, you're the leader of the mass-suicide movement, so it's only fitting
05:36:29 <lament> you're quite likely to be killed by a driver, you know
05:36:35 <lament> even if you're only a pedestrian
05:36:41 <GregorR> I treat bad drivers like scum.
05:36:47 <GregorR> Not all drivers kill people.
05:37:02 <lament> not all smokers kill people, either
05:37:09 <GregorR> It has nothing to do with killing.
05:37:11 <GregorR> It has to do with hurting.
05:37:27 <GregorR> Because people who don't smoke can't breathe smoke.
05:37:29 <cpressey> duerig: i cut in and out randomly. i find it enhances my air of mystery.
05:37:43 <cpressey> i can't breath car exhaust, either
05:38:09 <GregorR> There's a usefulness-vs-damage-to-society ratio here ...
05:38:29 <GregorR> The average modern car has very little exhaust, less than a smoker even *hahahah*
05:38:43 <lament> GregorR: drivers destroy the environment. This will ultimately lead to death of all life on Earth. "Very little" adds up.
05:38:49 <Robdgreat> you mean a "I-engage-in-that-behavior-so-it-gets-a-pass" ratio
05:38:57 <calamari> modern car exhaust smells a lot worse to me than old car
05:39:23 <calamari> probably because it isn't as masked with gasoline fumes :)
05:39:27 <GregorR> So "I-don't-engage-in-that-behavior-but-its-clearly-necessary-for-modern-society-to-survive-as-is"
05:39:59 <calamari> I knew somebody who wouldn't drive.. they were also a vegan... are you a vegan by chance? lol
05:40:43 <lament> GregorR: and yes, what about meat eaters? Shouldn't we treat them like scum? And people who perform abortions?
05:40:54 <Robdgreat> I'm a level five vegan. I don't eat anything that casts a shadow
05:41:00 <lament> And what about Americans?
05:41:22 <lament> shouldn't we treat them like scum? They live in a country that fucks up other countries.
05:41:35 <lament> And they made a conscious choice to stay in it :)
05:41:35 <Robdgreat> as I see it, if we werent' meant to eat animals, they wouldn't be made of meat
05:41:54 <GregorR> These are the most ludicrous arguments I've ever heard.
05:42:12 <calamari> lament: nah, I didn't vote for W
05:42:34 <lament> you support whoever's elected by staying in the country :)
05:42:38 <calamari> if there were a more free country somewhere, I'd move there
05:42:55 <calamari> as screwed up as America is, it's still on top
05:43:04 <lament> "free" is a fairly nebulous term, but by the most popular definitions, america's nowhere nearly the "most free"
05:43:06 <Robdgreat> clearly, the mere desire to leave the country will get you elsewhere
05:43:30 <GregorR> Or years of adjustment either.
05:43:59 <lament> GregorR: Nobody said it's easy.
05:44:03 <lament> GregorR: quitting smoking isn't easy, either.
05:44:12 <GregorR> STARTING smoking is a choice.
05:44:24 <GregorR> You don't decide what country you're born in.
05:44:47 <GregorR> I'ts not Xs fault that X is an American, but it is Xs fault that X is a smoker.
05:44:52 <lament> have you ever tried smoking?
05:45:10 <Robdgreat> lament: if Gregor can go through life without ever having made a bad decision, so can anybody.
05:45:23 <GregorR> There are bad decisions, and then there's smoking.
05:45:27 <GregorR> It's a whole other plane of bad decisions.
05:45:43 <GregorR> It's like saying "Oh, I see, Gregor hasn't killed somebody, he thinks he's some kind of saint'
05:45:50 <lament> even my health nut friend who religiously refuses weed has tried smoking :)
05:45:52 <cpressey> in america, you are free to smoke!
05:46:11 <GregorR> In America, you ought to be free to breathe.
05:46:14 <calamari> I never hung around people that smoked and my parents didn't smoke
05:46:23 <GregorR> I think the right to breathe preempts the "right" to smoke.
05:46:24 <calamari> the 2nd hand smoke gives me a headache
05:46:37 <lament> i have a tail because of second hand smoke
05:46:39 <cpressey> GregorR: what about someone who smokes on their own time in their own basement?
05:46:54 <lament> cpressey: he won't see them doing that, so he won't treat them like scum
05:47:07 <GregorR> cpressey: I hope they never have a family.
05:47:24 <GregorR> I can't really actively treat them like scum since I don't know whether they're a smoker or not XD
05:47:27 <lament> Treat C++ programmers like scum.
05:47:31 <GregorR> Innocent 'til proven guilty.
05:47:33 <lament> After all, they made a choice to use C++.
05:47:41 <calamari> yeah, they could have used Java
05:48:10 <GregorR> And now you have exposed the problem with that scenario ;)
05:48:13 <lament> My right to use Python preempts others' "right" to use C++
05:48:27 <GregorR> lament: My using C++ does not prevent you from using Python.
05:48:47 <lament> GregorR: no, but when you're using C++ i get sick of second-hand C++ poisoning.
05:49:00 <GregorR> Now, if only there was such a thing you would have a legitimate point.
05:49:34 <Arrogant> Getting C++ code to compile on various platforms is such a disgusting hassle
05:50:00 <lament> how about treating drummers like scum
05:50:20 <GregorR> The kind who stay up 'til 1AM and drum loudly, yeah, I agree.
05:50:20 <Arrogant> They drown out the rest of the band.
05:50:44 <Arrogant> The guitarist is there, but you really can't tell.
05:50:48 <lament> they're worse than smokers
05:51:07 <lament> many people die of second-hand drumming
05:51:31 <lament> it's not pretty, either, as their heads explode
05:51:54 <lament> at least smoking doesn't kill you instantly.
05:55:59 <calamari> drummers -> drum machines -> trance... so drummers are good
05:57:32 * calamari got his .NET Windows Forms in a Nutshell.. maybe I can avoid using Visual Studio a little longer now
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06:36:10 <cpressey> in support of the "Java consumes souls" theory...
06:36:37 <cpressey> just try reading some of the sentences there. you'll see.
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17:43:15 <GregorR> lament: What's your opinion on C programmers BTW?
18:42:20 <lament> GregorR: ah, those are merely misguided :)
18:42:58 <lament> GregorR: that's the dumbest argument ever, and an esoteric programmer shouldnt use that even as a joke
18:43:07 <lament> im tired of people saying that :(
18:43:31 <GregorR> Tell me how it's an invalid argument? Python wouldn't even exist without lower level languages (IE C)
18:44:09 <lament> GregorR: the most popular implementation of Python happens to be written in C. I couldn't care less.
18:44:47 <GregorR> So the people who wrote Python were misguided?
18:47:31 <lament> now that python is available... :)
18:48:05 <GregorR> My I just say that language advocacy is silly in general?
18:49:05 <GregorR> I said it louder therefore I'm right.
18:50:25 <lament> im stuck here with qwerty and no means to change the layout
18:50:28 <GregorR> Also, OMG FLYING SPAGHETTI MONSTER >>> JESUS LOL!
18:50:46 <lament> even typing "qwerty" is easier on dvorak :(
18:51:18 <lament> i used to know this at some point
18:51:28 <lament> im on linux, with no X
18:51:54 <GregorR> Admittedly, neither do I, there...
18:53:56 <lament> there IS a way to do that
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20:16:09 <ihope> I just thought up a language called "Foobar and Foobaz and Barbaz, oh my!"
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20:43:32 <ihope> EgoBot's not working, it seems.
20:44:24 <EgoBot> help ps kill i eof flush show ls
20:44:26 <EgoBot> 1l 2l adjust axo befunge bch bf{8,[16],32,64} glass glypho kipple lazyk malbolge pbrain rail sadol sceql udage01
20:46:24 <EgoBot> help ps kill i eof flush show ls
20:46:26 <EgoBot> 1l 2l adjust axo befunge bch bf{8,[16],32,64} glass glypho kipple lazyk malbolge pbrain rail sadol sceql udage01
20:55:19 <ihope> !input zonkmeister\n
20:55:37 <ihope> !input 1 zonkmeister\n
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20:58:13 <Keymaker> kipple: have you seen some norwegian movie called "villmark"?
20:58:34 <Keymaker> (i hope i remember the name correct)
20:58:58 <Keymaker> it's something horror movie, and really scary in my opinion. i just saw it
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21:28:56 -!- Taliesin41 has changed nick to Kevin.
21:29:10 -!- Kevin has changed nick to K.
21:29:45 -!- K has changed nick to Kevin.
21:30:09 <Kevin> why are all nicks already owned?
21:30:20 -!- Kevin has changed nick to KevinN.
21:33:02 <KevinN> hm... your nick somehow reminds me of my own... ^_^
21:33:21 <GregorR> Originality is not my strong suit in nick selection :P
21:33:54 <KevinN> ^_^ at least one knows your real name within an instant... ;)
21:35:19 <KevinN> thought I should have a look after visiting esolangs.org ...
21:36:07 <GregorR> Please, introduce yourself by filling out this 15-question survey. The answers don't need to be any longer than 10pages/ea, so it should only take you a few hours.
21:36:17 <Keymaker> how did you find out esolangs.org?
21:36:47 <KevinN> wanted to see if someone knows my language... ^_^
21:36:52 <KevinN> well... someone does...
21:37:30 <jix> KevinN: are you the AlPhAbEt(?) guy?
21:38:22 <KevinN> yes... and inspired by a phonecall with an austrian... ^_^
21:39:41 <KevinN> by the way... where is esolangs from? or better: where is the founder from?
21:39:58 <jix> graue runs the wiki and file archive
21:40:04 <jix> wooby owns the domain
21:41:03 <jix> oh and the word esolang is short for esoteric programming language and afaik the name is from cpressey
21:42:13 <KevinN> I saw that my description was translated to English... really fascinating...
21:43:03 <jix> KevinN: yeah there was a stub for a long time and one day i decided to translate it checked the wiki and WHAM .. it was allready translated
21:43:27 <KevinN> looking for what, robdgreat?
21:44:20 <Keymaker> he doesn't know yet, he's still looking for it :)
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22:02:25 <kipple> hi Kevin, and welcome :)
22:02:39 <kipple> (and hi to you other guys too)
22:03:06 <Keymaker> kipple, saw that my guestion about a movie?
22:03:16 <kipple> Keymaker: yes, I've seen the movie and you remember the name correctly
22:03:30 <kipple> it was OK, but I'm not much of a horror fan
22:03:49 <kipple> I have a problem finding them scary, so they kind of misses the point for me
22:04:02 <Keymaker> uh, that's probably their point :)
22:04:26 <kipple> no, I mean my problem is that I generally DON'T find them scary :)
22:05:00 <Keymaker> it was visually very good, the nature
22:05:43 <Keymaker> norwegian movies i've seen this far have been good
22:05:57 <kipple> ok. you can't have seen many then :)
22:07:10 <kipple> which ones? (if you remember their titles)
22:07:35 <Keymaker> the one before this was Ni albni, that was very good too
22:08:03 <kipple> keymaker: what? never heard of it... and not a norwegian name either
22:08:30 <calamari> lecture was about turing machines today
22:08:56 <kipple> ah. well that's an esoteric language all right ;)
22:09:00 <Keymaker> i remembered wrong country, sorry :)
22:09:53 <calamari> Keymaker: one thing I didn't know.. if you move left at the edge of the tape, it stays in the leftmost cell, without error (vs BF)
22:11:09 <calamari> eof is handled by adding an "empty" symbol
22:11:30 <calamari> maybe a base 257 bf variant? hehe
22:22:13 <KevinN> *cough* still there? ^_^
22:22:22 <KevinN> (talking about turing...)
22:22:31 <GregorR> We tend to disappear and reappear at random in #esoteric.
22:22:56 <Keymaker> and sometimes there's the time delay; an answer to a question appears two days late
22:23:16 <Keymaker> ..and confuses one for a while..
22:24:11 <KevinN> is a language turing-complete when I'm able to implement a turing-machine?
22:24:44 <Keymaker> i didn't think; i thought there was supposed to read "it is"
22:24:55 <Keymaker> but then realized that'd be rather strange
22:25:15 <Keymaker> (like, "it is" instead of "I'm")
22:25:26 <calamari> Keymaker: how about "...in it?"
22:25:26 <Keymaker> but i realize now what you meant
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22:26:30 <Keymaker> but the usual way is to make a brainfuck interpreter :)
22:26:34 <KevinN> however, is there any specification how a "turing-machine" has to work...
22:26:47 <calamari> or bitchanger if that's easier
22:26:59 <KevinN> i once saw something like <state><tape-value><state><operation> ...
22:27:31 * calamari tries to remember what he heard in class today
22:27:55 <KevinN> I know... that already works...
22:28:06 <calamari> since start state, single accept state single rejecting state
22:33:10 <KevinN> I just don't get it... how is one to work with only the symbols "< } [ ]"
22:33:28 <GregorR> To do a +, you do <}, to do a >, you do }<}
22:34:13 <KevinN> don't know brainfuck good enough to know what >, is...
22:34:51 <KevinN> (I mean, I don't know the dot and the comma)
22:35:07 <calamari> KevinN: bf has a memory array (the tape).. > and < move the head across the tape left or right one memory cell
22:35:18 <calamari> err that should have been right or left
22:35:49 <KevinN> ah... dot is output and , is input...
22:35:58 <calamari> . means output char (so 65 will output 'A'), , means input char (cell = char ascii value)
22:36:41 <calamari> bitchanger only handles one bit cells (rather than 8 bit).. so + and - become identical
22:37:32 <calamari> so I combine them into @ as an intermediate step
22:37:44 <calamari> you could do @@ and the cell would be unchanged
22:39:06 <KevinN> and } is a > and additional a @
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22:39:57 <KevinN> and what are the brackets for? [ and ]
22:40:56 <calamari> essentially while(cell) { ... }
22:41:44 <calamari> where cell is the value of the current cell
22:42:11 <KevinN> so... byebye bitchanger-interpreter... ~.~
22:42:16 <calamari> there wasn't originally [] in BitChanger, but that was an error so I had to add it back in
22:43:12 <KevinN> how am I to keep the whole source in-memory...?
22:43:54 <KevinN> I'm just thinking of how to implement bitchanger...
22:44:35 <KevinN> those while-loops are breaking my neck...
22:45:17 <calamari> they can be thought of different ways
22:45:28 <KevinN> and it is (of course) possible to do thinks like this: [ [ ] ]
22:46:13 <calamari> for example: test: if (cell) goto label; ... goto test; label:
22:46:28 <KevinN> I don't have any goto... ^_^
22:46:34 <calamari> for example: test: if (!cell) goto label; ... goto test; label:
22:46:47 <KevinN> but... hm... let me think....
22:47:06 <calamari> just mentioning that it doesn't need to be a while
22:47:22 <KevinN> the main problem is keeping the sourcecode in-memory... (since my memory is used for the tape)
22:47:52 <KevinN> it doesn't need to be a while?
22:48:31 <calamari> KevinN: maybe I'm being confusing.. that if goto stuff is equivalent to a while
22:49:18 <calamari> I don't know what language you're trying to implement this in.. so just giving options :)
22:49:27 <KevinN> ah... well... still got no goto, though... ^_^
22:49:34 <KevinN> http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/AlPhAbEt
22:52:04 <KevinN> we have a tape that has a beginning?
22:52:28 <calamari> I need to get going.. sorry :)
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22:52:53 <KevinN> really tricky that is...
22:55:42 <KevinN> think i've got an idea know...
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22:56:04 <KevinN> (brain)f*ck... so late already...
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