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18:00:31 <SimonRC> twobitsprite: I have thought of a lang with no syntax errors: LISP!
18:00:57 <fuse> cheater, it has no syntax!
18:01:04 <SimonRC> All you have to do is make sure you splice S-expressions, and not just strings, and you should be fine.
18:01:30 <SimonRC> I know it was chosen for some program evolution experiments for this very reason,
18:02:32 <SimonRC> Oh, check out the experiments on evolution in redcode as well.
18:03:02 <fuse> redcode, is it that core wars thingie?
18:03:09 <SimonRC> Redcode is the machine-like language used for CoreWars, and the evolved warriors beat some hand-coded ones in a tournament!
18:04:04 <SimonRC> Google for the webpage on that experiment.
18:07:05 <SimonRC> That relied on a task that can be done in a huge variety of ways, and with a great variation in quality, and is not well understood.
18:07:20 <SimonRC> And has a good fitness function.
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21:06:36 <fuse> what's going on?
21:07:38 <fuse> coded something silly: http://fuse.superglue.se/lazy.cc.txt
21:10:20 <fuse> http://fzort.org/mpr/hacks/lazy.cc.txt
21:25:50 <fuse> ihope, why is that?
21:26:04 <SimonRC> Oh, wait, the first one loaded now.
21:26:16 <fuse> it's the same thing
21:26:24 <ihope> Well... I can't read that.
21:27:17 <ihope> I don't like imperative languages in general.
21:29:43 <fuse> i'm currently making an effort to learn functional programming
21:30:34 <ihope> What language is it?
21:30:42 <ihope> Or are you still on lambda calculus?
21:31:00 <fuse> both... i'm giving scheme a try
21:31:31 <fuse> i wrote that lazy streams thing after i finally figured it out in scheme, the first time i saw it it looked a bit like magic
21:32:25 <ihope> Tell me what ((badger badger badger badger) (badger badger badger badger) (badger badger badger badger) (mushroom mushroom) snake) does, will you?
21:33:01 <SimonRC> Lazy streams: In C++ they are ugly. In Scheme they are beautiful. In Haskell they are invisible.
21:33:29 <fuse> ihope: doesn't look like it'll do anything :)
21:33:42 <fuse> simonrc: mind if i add that to my fortunes file? :)
21:33:55 <ihope> I like invisible things.
21:34:53 <fuse> so should i give haskell a spin?
21:34:57 <ihope> "How's the memory allocation in Haskell?" "Oh, it's invisible." "What about polymorphism?" "Invisible." "Function currying?" "Invisible..."
21:35:04 <ihope> Yes. Haskell's very nice.
21:35:13 <ihope> Try EVERY language!
21:35:50 <SimonRC> I really need to learn LISP and Perl, and practice Scheme and C.
21:35:54 * ihope thinks he took the "oh, Haskell's not right for everybody" too far
21:35:55 <fuse> dude, i will, after i get to the point where i actually see myself using scheme in a non-toy project
21:36:54 <ihope> How's networking with Scheme?
21:37:19 <fuse> well, i saw nfs implemented in scheme the other day
21:37:43 <fuse> http://www.cs.utah.edu/~farrer/plug-nfs/plug-nfs.html
21:37:55 <ihope> Is networking with Scheme any harder/easier than with Haskell?
21:37:58 <fuse> a nfs server, that is
21:38:25 <ihope> My current Haskell "om u nead this" is classes.
21:40:16 * ihope is going to call the language Schemer from now until some time in the future
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21:44:22 <nooga> oh, cool, u r here
21:44:26 <nooga> just when i need you
21:44:54 <fuse> what's going on?
21:45:16 <nooga> could you say in your native language "and so are you! you french pig! get lost with your slick tongue!"?
21:45:26 <nooga> you're Spanish, right?
21:46:03 <fuse> er, not really
21:46:30 <nooga> no problem, just translate please :>
21:46:43 <fuse> "e voce tambem! seu porco frances! va' te catar com a sua lingua afiada!"
21:46:54 <fuse> that's portuguese, though.
21:47:06 <ihope> Portuguese is *almost* Spanish.
21:47:37 <fuse> it's pretty close.
21:48:01 <nooga> i think.. me hablas espaol, un poco
21:48:27 <ihope> I think "yo hablo un poco de español".
21:49:17 <fuse> what ihope said.
21:49:33 * ihope sets his keyboard layout to US International
21:49:44 <nooga> that's why i said "un poco"
21:49:50 <fuse> nooga: may i ask why you need that translation? :)
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21:50:51 <nooga> ah, my friend is swanking and insulting m e in french
21:52:03 <ihope> So which key is the AltGr?
21:52:35 <ihope> There we go. Ññ >:-)
21:52:38 <nooga> i was just watching some TV novels in which they were talking portuguese
21:52:56 <fuse> man, i hate soap operas.
21:53:48 <nooga> damn, i can't talk now, my language skills are lower at night ;]
21:57:40 <fuse> your language skills are fine
21:57:54 <fuse> be back in a bit, got to finish something for work
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22:06:57 <SimonRC> ihope: yeah, type classes *rock*
22:07:08 <SimonRC> They are duck yping done right.
22:07:43 <ihope> Say, is "duck type" a pun on "duct tape" at all?
22:08:20 <SimonRC> duck typing is saying "I will accept any object with these methods".
22:08:43 <SimonRC> e.g. "I will accept any object with a draw method."
22:09:35 <SimonRC> Which is fine until you pass it a pack of cards, whose draw method does something rather different.
22:11:06 <ihope> Say, in Java, is there any way to require an argument to implement two interfaces?
22:11:11 <SimonRC> "If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it's a duck." is where the name comes from
22:11:36 <SimonRC> that's the 10% of stuff you do with Haskell type classes that you can't do in Java
22:12:16 <ihope> In Java, can you ask for a list of things such that the *list* implements some interface?
22:13:13 <fuse> what do you mean?
22:13:57 <ihope> Like Haskell's (Read [a]) => a
22:14:19 <ihope> It's any type for which you can turn a string into a list of things of that type.
22:14:30 <fuse> ok. i don't know haskell. i've done java professionally, though. excuse me while i go shoot myself.
22:14:54 <fuse> no, i'm not proud of that.
22:15:30 <fuse> heh, sorry. no, i don't think you can do that with java.
22:15:54 <ihope> Hmm, a bit of wonkiness going on here.
22:16:07 <ihope> ä man, a plan, a canal, panama
22:16:23 * fuse looks up "wonk"
22:16:30 <ihope> I guess I'll have to get used to that.
22:17:09 <ihope> I type "a man" and get ä man".
22:18:29 <fuse> what language uses an umlaut over an 'a'?
22:19:34 <ihope> But I know Spanish uses ü.
22:19:36 <fuse> assuming that's the character you're seeing.
22:19:57 <ihope> I can say things like "pingüino" now!
22:20:33 <fuse> portuguese uses that too. it's almost extinct now, though. too bad. it did add a bit of color.
22:21:11 <fuse> no, i mean u + umlaut.
22:21:26 <ihope> Hay un pingüino que se llama Gordo....
22:21:50 <fuse> i have a penguin called Fatso.
22:22:24 <SimonRC> ihope: Only the newest Java standard supports p"arameterised types".
22:22:46 <fuse> ah - /that/'s what you meant.
22:22:55 <ihope> Un día, Gordo ve muchos acentos.
22:23:18 <fuse> one day, Fatso sees a lot of accents.
22:23:49 <ihope> Oh, wait, you were translating? Okay ;-)
22:24:03 <fuse> hahah. no, i don't have a penguin. :)
22:24:18 <ihope> I think that'd be "there is a penguin", not "I have a penguin".
22:24:33 <ihope> Anyway... Gordo come un acento.
22:25:47 <fuse> oh well. my spanish is about good enough to order a beer.
22:25:53 <fuse> Fatso eats an accent?
22:26:27 <ihope> Él dice, «No me gustan acentos.»
22:26:37 <fuse> dice, "I don't like accents."
22:26:41 <fuse> i'm starting to feel like a bot.
22:29:37 <ihope> Después, Gordo ve tres diéreses. Él come un.
22:30:29 <fuse> afterwards, Fatso sees three... i don't know how to say that in english, but it's a sort of accent.
22:30:54 <fuse> are you making this stuff up?
22:31:54 <fuse> ok. i should learn haskell, then.
22:32:09 <fuse> is there a shortcut? like haskell for idiots or something?
22:32:40 <fuse> is this any good? http://www.haskell.org/tutorial/
22:32:51 <ihope> It "sort of" worked for me.
22:32:57 <ihope> Lemme dig up something...
22:33:42 <ihope> This is much, much better because I helped write it :-P
22:33:44 <ihope> http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Programming:Haskell
22:34:49 <fuse> hmm, maybe i'm asking for too much, but is there a downloadable version? i have zero bandwidth at home.
22:35:29 <ihope> What do you mean by zero bandwidth?
22:37:20 <fuse> no intarweb at home. i'm at work right now.
22:37:27 <fuse> wow, ones = 1 : ones
22:38:23 <ihope> fuse: you know what : does?
22:38:25 <fuse> i had to write about 200 lines of c++ before i was able to do "struct ones : stream { ones() : stream(1, delay<ones>()) { } };"
22:38:48 <fuse> it seems to be something you use to make lists
22:38:59 <ihope> a:[b,c,d] = [a,b,c,d]
22:39:12 <fuse> ah, kinda like cons then.
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22:41:18 <fuse> i got to go. later. thanks!
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