00:04:25 <Keymaker> ihope: interesting new lang. gotta try to inspect it more once there's an interpreter
00:04:41 <ihope> That'd be easy enough to write.
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00:11:21 <GregorR> The whole idea of having a peer-judged new lang contest would be that the winner would actually be new and original ...
00:17:05 <Keymaker> wildhalcyon: yae, i was referring to pointy.
00:17:16 <Keymaker> although smatiny is one of my favourites these days ;)
00:18:28 <ihope> I've never done anything with it, but still...
00:19:22 <Keymaker> (never done anything in it either :D)
00:20:05 <ihope> One very useless BackFlip construction: a field surrounded by arrows pointing inward.
00:20:49 <ihope> You can go in, but then the only way out is back the way you came.
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03:45:41 <wildhalcyon> damn it. I'm trying to come up with a good idea for a theoretical esolang creation competition.
03:47:29 <GregorR> I think the main thing is making the judgment fair.
03:48:04 <GregorR> I'd say all of the contestants are also judges, and vote for three entries (one of which will probalby be their own).
03:51:48 <GregorR> The effect is the same *shrugs*
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05:34:19 <wildhalcyon> Suppose, instead of the traditional bf turing machine, you have a different one.
05:35:08 <wildhalcyon> Instead of marking cells, your instructions involve grouping them together, and pulling them apart
05:37:21 <wildhalcyon> So you have >, <, + (join), - (pop one off the current clump), and ~ to swap the cell with the next one in line.
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05:39:15 <wildhalcyon> I think I'll name it KTM for Katamari Turing Machine.
05:39:29 <wildhalcyon> Although I'm not sure if its Turing-Complete or not
05:39:42 <GregorR> (Nobody talk, eventually he'll just shut up ;) )
05:39:57 <wildhalcyon> lol, Gregor, Im afraid that's where you're wrong
05:40:20 <wildhalcyon> although I just whipped out my notepad clone to write up a spec ;-) That probably would have shut me up for a couple minutes
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05:53:54 <wildhalcyon> I don't think it is, because it essentially "removes" cells to increment the current cell.
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11:44:42 <sedimin> somebody was talking about esolang competition?
11:47:21 <sedimin> I saw something in yesterday's log, but did anything emerge from it?
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12:02:04 <kipple> how about having an annual award (in several categories) where all that has been done that year can be nominated
12:07:41 <kipple> hopefully we could usurp the Essies name
12:08:25 <kipple> the problem with the contests that have been in the past is that they are so time limited. most interesting stuff gets made outside of those time limits
12:09:54 <sedimin> why not limit it to entire year?
12:10:09 <sedimin> for example, the 2006 contest will end on 31.12.2006
12:10:20 <sedimin> and in january, the decision will be made
12:11:09 <kipple> in january there is a limited time when people can nominate entries. When the nominations are over, everybody gets to vote
12:11:33 <sedimin> so maybe in february, there'll be results
12:20:44 <sedimin> hm. there should be some music-generating language. I just like chip-tunes
12:21:05 <sedimin> there should be no console output, just the sound
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12:57:32 <Keymaker> hmm, yes, gregorr's idea of everyone being judges in the comp sounds good
12:58:06 <Keymaker> but personally i'd rather have some more limited competition time, that's for example a month or two
13:00:52 <Keymaker> personally i'd limit it to one esolang per person. otherwise people just whip up languages like maniacs and don't plan them that well or program in them that much as they would if they are only limited to one. or at least that's what i think
13:01:11 <Keymaker> but either the way, i really would like to see something!
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14:00:26 <SimonRC> cool optical illusion --> http://www.johnsadowski.com/big_spanish_castle.html
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14:23:06 <ihope_> So... no staff members on?
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15:52:10 <SimonRC> ihope_: why would there be?
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18:00:10 <sedimin_> ...again idenfity instead of identify :/
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18:20:09 <sedimin_> nice one :: http://dubwise.ic.cz/pix/ms_zacina.jpg
18:22:36 <sedimin_> my GF must be happy that I don't like football ;)
18:43:28 * SimonRC wonders what she is *actually* holding (as opposed to what is being suggested).
18:44:45 <kipple> huh? any reason to believe those two are not the same?
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19:40:27 <SimonRC> # Ooh, mah name is, # # Ooh mah name is, # # Ooh, mah name is, # # `/bin/hostname` # -- _My name is `/bin/hostname`_, by slim.shady.com
19:41:49 * SimonRC hopes everyone at least *gets* the joke.
19:43:24 <SimonRC> b(C):-b(succ(C)) -- Smiley speaking PROLOG (to go with the perl, COBOL, LISP, etc smileys)
19:43:37 <kipple> hmm. the world really needs an esolang based on rap ;)
19:44:30 <SimonRC> perl: :-@n8P@8p7*@*@BP{B)(98'[`2&^58}]7b9[] COBOL: COLON SUBTRACT OPENING PARENTHESIS
19:47:34 <GregorR> Woah, that castle illusion is amazing 8-X
19:47:40 <GregorR> It's in perfect, brilliant color ...
19:48:37 <SimonRC> It's an effect of certain color receptors becoming tierd, and your brain overintepreting the resulting coloured blobs.
19:50:15 <wildhalcyon> Its actually the best one of those illusions that I've seen. I think it has to do with the way the color arranged in the picture.
19:50:37 <SimonRC> TV (in Britain) transmits hue, intensity, and brighness is its 3 channels IIRC. The horizontal resolution of the color is much less than that of the brightness, but you don't notice it unless you look for it, buy the same principle as the second cause of the castle effect.
19:51:00 <SimonRC> you brain assumes that the brighness boundaries correspond to the same set of objects as the color boundaries.
19:51:26 <SimonRC> have any of you seen the evil smiley?
19:51:54 <SimonRC> "Why is it evil?", I hear you ask.
19:52:19 <SimonRC> well if you pick a file, say foo.txt, the you execute the command
19:52:36 <SimonRC> foo.txt will be turned into an empty file!
19:53:30 <SimonRC> : is the null command in bash
19:53:49 <ihope_> Null command? You mean cat or the no-input-no-output program?
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20:00:49 <ihope_> What's the "numeric" value of EOF, generally?
20:01:06 <kipple> I don't think there is such a thing
20:01:41 <ihope_> But this language doesn't have a -1.
20:01:56 <ihope_> Ah well. I'll have this cat program just ignore EOF, then.
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20:05:41 <kipple> well, then it is the end of a string, not a file, so it's not EOF
20:06:16 <ihope_> 0 for EOF would be convenient, as this language is more-or-less a souped-up Minsky machine.
20:06:37 <kipple> the pointy article doesn't say anything about the width of the memory cells. are you saying they can't be negative?
20:06:50 <ihope_> They can be any non-negative number.
20:07:36 <kipple> does the INP function read a byte, or a larger number?
20:08:14 <ihope_> Well, just how values are input and output isn't defined.
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20:09:17 <kipple> if its returns a byte you could for instance define 256 as EOF
20:09:32 <sedimin_> in windows it works with 255 (-1)
20:10:01 <ihope_> Unless you're talking bytes here.
20:10:20 <kipple> well, there is no -1 in Pointy anyway
20:10:58 <kipple> yes, but that should not be EOF, because the input might contain 255
20:11:04 <ihope_> But Pointy memory doesn't hold bytes.
20:11:36 <ihope_> I'm just saying that there's no especially good way to store negative values in Pointy memory.
20:11:40 <sedimin_> i was solving exactly this problem few days ago with omgrofl
20:12:13 <ihope_> You can say that an even number x represents x/2 and that an odd number y represents -(y+1)/2, but that's a bit "weird".
20:12:29 <kipple> EOF should be a number that INP will never return, except when the file is ended. If there is no such number you're out of luck ;)
20:12:32 <sedimin_> when the input of cat program was redirected from file, it worked - it terminated on the end of file
20:12:39 <ihope_> There, your number line would be 9, 7, 5, 3, 1, 0, 2, 4, 6, 8...
20:12:58 <sedimin_> but when I input came from keyboard, and I tried to terminate output with ctrl+z, it did nothing
20:13:23 <ihope_> Now, a nice way to do things is to have 0 represent EOF, then increment every actual character that goes in.
20:13:52 <ihope_> Some guys who have ASCII memorized would probably get annoyed, but who cares about them? :-P
20:14:17 <kipple> so immediately after you INP, you should always DEC. Then you automatically get a jump too on EOF
20:14:26 <wildhalcyon> If we're talking esolangs, if someone DOES have the ascii table memorized you SHOULD annoy them.
20:14:57 <kipple> the ASCII table is irrelevant anyway when you're dealing with binary data
20:15:15 <ihope_> An alternative to all this is just to let INP do a jump as well.
20:15:35 <kipple> that is also a very good idea
20:16:06 <kipple> now you're thinking outside the box :)
20:17:44 <ihope_> If memory cells are bounded, you can even have INC do a "failure jump".
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20:24:10 <sedimin_> hm. is it Hello, world! or Hello, World?
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20:24:47 <kipple> but does it really matter....?
20:25:07 <GregorR> The original was "HELLO WORLD"
20:25:13 <GregorR> But usually it's "Hello, world!" now.
20:27:06 <kipple> according to the 'pedia the original was "hello, world"
20:33:32 <sedimin_> btw - ihope - there can't be comments in Pointy?
20:33:46 <sedimin_> yes, i happen to like the blockiness :)
20:34:03 <ihope_> sedimin_: semicolons make nice comment markers, not that I myself like them :-P
20:34:35 <sedimin_> ihope: but you did not mention it, did you?
20:34:42 <ihope_> wildhalcyon: by Courier, do you mean Courier, or Courier New?
20:35:11 <ihope_> sedimin_: well, I did use a comment or two in those example programs, didn't I?
20:37:18 <wildhalcyon> Although to be honest, Im not entirely sure what the differences are.
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20:41:29 <wildhalcyon> I like this one: http://home.student.uu.se/j/jowi4905/fonts/
20:41:50 <kipple> stay tuned for the exciting conlusion to this typographical thriller
20:43:02 <kipple> wildhalcyon: that one looks nice!
20:43:27 <wildhalcyon> Its pretty easy to read too, which is handy for esolangs
20:44:02 <kipple> unfortunately it has lousy support for international characters.. :(
20:45:04 <kipple> hah, "easy to read" and esolangs doesn't belong in the same sentence
20:45:06 <SimonRC> I want a fixed-width font that has a tiny pixel box, and does every charachter in the BMP.
20:45:07 <sedimin_> and so it happens, that I can't find original Courier font on my PC :)
20:45:22 <SimonRC> Except for the chinese ones
20:45:37 <sedimin_> I know it is somewhere in my win3.1 install somewhere
20:45:47 <SimonRC> BTW, Chinese chars are usually double-width.
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20:46:08 <SimonRC> which a good terminal program can handle
20:46:15 <sedimin_> http://www.fonts.com/images/products/closeup/012277OPN.gif
20:46:27 <SimonRC> and w3m can cope with double-with chars
20:46:28 <fizzie> I use DejaVu Sans Mono for my fixed-width needs.
20:47:08 <ihope_> So why does Chinese have so many characters?
20:47:19 <SimonRC> because they use logographs
20:47:35 * SimonRC hunts for the really good explanition he found
20:47:58 <sedimin_> there are many chinese people, so many characters
20:48:25 <wildhalcyon> Nice enough for me to download at least :-D
20:48:26 <SimonRC> here is a really good expn: http://www.zompist.com/yingzi/yingzi.htm
20:48:57 <sedimin_> http://rafb.net/paste/results/9O4I2V92.html
20:49:40 <kipple> hum. SV Basic Manual renders horribly in un-bold on my system :(
20:49:53 <ihope_> Hmm, the use of pointers doesn't really make it any shorter, but that's a nice demonstration of how pointers work.
20:50:10 <sedimin_> that was in my mind when writing it
20:52:34 <fizzie> DejaVu is basically the Bitstream font, but with more characters. (Doesn't have CJK, but there's really no need to have them and latin-like letters in the same font, sensible systems can pick them up from other fonts if necessary.)
20:53:26 <fizzie> If one happens to like 8x16 pixel fonts (as opposed to something that can be anti-aliased), there's that "unifont" thing, http://czyborra.com/unifont/
20:56:53 <fizzie> (Oh, and I used the bitmap font from http://openlab.jp/efont/ before I realized that this computing device renders screenfuls of anti-aliased text (even with Freetype) fast enough; but it doesn't really have very large unicode coverage.)
20:58:50 <fizzie> Admittedly about the only non-ISO-8859-1/15 letters I've used in IRC have been λ and ∈.
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21:34:20 <ihope_> ∈looks really ugly here, λ looks really nice, and everything else is sort of in-between.
21:35:10 <ihope_> I expect whoever made the ∈ thing over here didn't really put much time into it :-P
21:37:55 <fizzie> It looks rather out-of-place here too.
21:38:53 <ihope_> Say, I forgot I added a /partall command to my client.
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21:43:48 <Keymaker> i can't believe how this prolan/m task can be done
21:44:44 <Keymaker> i just can't figure out a way how to get the end result back to number form and print it out, yet avoid it starting the program again by matching the digits just like when started..
21:46:09 <Keymaker> i think i just got it while i was writing my question :D
21:49:24 <GregorR> I mean, what are we talking about?
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21:50:08 <ihope_> By the way, what am I supposed to do if I want my Thue program to handle things that have ::= in them
21:50:42 <Keymaker> you can't handle those on left side,
21:50:51 <Keymaker> but you can always convert ::= to something other
21:51:03 <ihope_> I wish my enter key weren
21:51:11 <ihope_> 't so easy to press accidentally. :-P
21:53:26 <EgoBot> help ps kill i eof flush show ls bf_txtgen usertrig daemon undaemon
21:53:28 <EgoBot> 1l 2l adjust axo befunge bch bf{8,[16],32,64} fyb fybs glass glypho kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 unlambda whirl
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22:54:07 <wildhalcyon> I keep putting CRAWL off to try to devleop esolangs that are easier to write interpreters for
23:00:00 <Keymaker> i'm currently busy with this prolan/m..
23:00:35 <Keymaker> too bad i haven't had much time yet, i've been "working"
23:00:58 <Keymaker> but finally have some spare time ;)
23:01:45 <Keymaker> i'm hoping to have something done this week. unless something bizarre happens
23:03:21 <Keymaker> currently i'm writing somekind of plan of the program and techniques i'm going to use. this program probably won't be that optimized, however
23:03:41 <wildhalcyon> I wouldnt really know where to begin with optimization :-(
23:03:58 <Keymaker> heh, i'm happy just to get it working :)
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23:12:37 <wildhalcyon_> Its super slow and eats up enourmous resources doing just about nothing, then it freezes my browser.
23:13:08 <Keymaker> yeah, it doesn't sound too good
23:16:14 <wildhalcyon_> Wow, it appears that while my computer was freezing, I was having a conversation with myself on IRC. none of it is in the logs
23:19:02 <wildhalcyon_> my biggest issue with that problem right now is that there doesn't seem to be any way to tell when something has reached the "end" of the string on the left-hand side. So my solution always ends up with some garbage there
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23:34:00 <SimonRC> wildhalcyon_: remember, the proof that PROLAN/M is Turing-complete is a *constructive* proof.
23:35:00 <SimonRC> if a pattern didn't match last time, then it;s not going to match this time, unless the new match are overlaps the most recent modification.
23:35:10 <SimonRC> wildhalcyon_: look at the wiki
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23:36:54 <SimonRC> there is an explanation of how to prove it, referring to Thue (very similar), which can be shown to be turing-complete
23:37:23 * SimonRC types a long line outlining how to solve the problem
23:37:35 <SimonRC> oh, wait, waht's the input format and output format?
23:38:51 <Keymaker> i should perhaps quit, i don't want to see any solutions :P
23:39:28 <SimonRC> step 1: write turing machine to solve problem
23:39:40 -!- Keymaker has left (?).
23:39:44 <SimonRC> step 2: turn turing machine into set of PROLAN/M steps
23:39:51 -!- Keymaker has joined.
23:39:58 <SimonRC> step 2: turn turing machine into set of PROLAN/M steps
23:40:29 <wildhalcyon> my solution is: Step 1: Get Keymaker to do it
23:40:34 <SimonRC> actually, PROLAN/M is slightly more powerful than a TM; you can insert cells
23:40:35 <Keymaker> and my way is different, anyway ;)
23:41:40 <Keymaker> more powerful or not, it's a lot more difficult to program in than the turing tarpits i've seen
23:41:56 <SimonRC> the ? is very useful as it allows the machine to tell the difference between a solved problem and an unolved problem
23:42:32 <Keymaker> that's what i realized a few hours(?) ago just when i was going to complain about it :D
23:42:41 <Keymaker> otherwise this would be impossible
23:43:07 <SimonRC> you turn the ? into a tape head, which looks like: [asdf], where asdf is the TM state.
23:44:03 <SimonRC> then you turn each cell in the (extended) TM rule table into a transformation rule.