< 1151110538 0 :Keymaker!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1151110999 0 :poiuy_qwert!i=poiuyqwe@Toronto-HSE-ppp3697331.sympatico.ca JOIN :#esoteric < 1151117817 0 :ihope_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, UTF-21. < 1151118249 0 :Arrogant!i=Scott@187.orlando-09-10rs.fl.dial-access.att.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1151119952 0 :Arrogant!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Leaving" < 1151120253 0 :Arrogant!i=Scott@160.orlando-09-10rs.fl.dial-access.att.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1151120260 0 :_coder_!n=_coder__@user-12l2j6u.cable.mindspring.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1151121438 0 :ihope_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"¡Adiós!" < 1151124067 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Ex-Chat" < 1151125145 0 :_coder_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Leaving" < 1151128811 0 :Arrogant!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1151128864 0 :Arrogant!i=Scott@160.orlando-09-10rs.fl.dial-access.att.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1151135999 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :ended < 1151136000 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid JOIN :#esoteric < 1151137663 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"all your basment are belong to bsmntbombdood" < 1151139545 0 :poiuy_qwert!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1151139984 0 :jix!i=jix@L621f.l.strato-dslnet.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1151149195 0 :Arrogant_!i=Scott@144.orlando-09-10rs.fl.dial-access.att.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1151149565 0 :Arrogant!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Nick collision from services. < 1151149569 0 :Arrogant_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :Arrogant < 1151153673 0 :Arrogant!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Leaving" < 1151159672 0 :_W_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the wiki down, or just unreachable by me? < 1151163209 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :_W_: what were you saying about graphs earlier? < 1151167063 0 :_W_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm just looking for a nice way to represent them. < 1151167110 0 :_W_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If the statements in a program are nodes in a graph, how do I write what nodes are connected < 1151167916 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :flowcharts are graphs representing statements in programs < 1151168052 0 :_W_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we're talking textual representation tho < 1151168078 0 :_W_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and these graphs are just slightly more flexible < 1151168375 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, sorry < 1151168460 0 :_W_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pgimeno, I'm making a non-deterministic esolang, where the next node executed after one node is completed is random among those connected to it < 1151168711 0 :tgwizard!n=tgwizard@c-e43ee155.178-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1151168780 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I see, kind of a Thue with graphs right? < 1151168819 0 :_W_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not really < 1151168857 0 :_W_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's threaded, and you have, for instance, a "fork" node < 1151168926 0 :_W_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :beyond that I'm still experimenting < 1151168971 0 :_W_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't want it to be impossible to write a program which has a high probability of outputting "Hello, world!" and nothing else < 1151169103 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :10 LET A=A+1 GOTO 20,30,40 < 1151169123 0 :_W_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah that's an idea, except it shouldn't be a directed graph < 1151169136 0 :_W_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I guess I could let the gotos be comefrom's as well < 1151169143 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :10 LET A=A+1 COMEFROM 20,30,40 < 1151169160 0 :_W_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :10 LET A=A+1 GOTOORCOMEFROM 20,30,40 < 1151169167 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yuck < 1151169222 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION thinks Malbolge is enough evilness for him < 1151169635 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow... http://72.14.221.104/search?q=cache:vcsZz5FfPo8J:www.sakabe.i.is.nagoya-u.ac.jp/~nishida/DB/pdf/iizawa05ss2005-22.pdf+programming+method+obfuscated+language+malbolge&hl=es&ct=clnk&cd=5 < 1151169787 0 :_W_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1151170220 0 :Sgeo!n=Sgeo@ool-18bf61f7.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1151173147 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Bitte waehlen Sie eine Beerdigungnachricht" < 1151178212 0 :bsmntbombdood!n=gavin@unaffiliated/bsmntbombdood JOIN :#esoteric < 1151180594 0 :ihope!n=foo@c-71-205-100-59.hsd1.mi.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1151180620 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd like a language that, while easy to interpret, is almost impossible to decompile. < 1151180635 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And almost impossible to modify in a predictable way. < 1151180672 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It wouldn't, however, be difficult to compile to. < 1151180885 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not that you'd want to write in this language directly: if you wanted to make a change, no matter how trivial, you'd have to start over. < 1151180912 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess SNOBOL sort of meets these criteria, but it < 1151180917 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :'s not easy to interpret. < 1151180933 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suppose reversible cellular automata might help. < 1151181201 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Construct some machine that has an input, an output, and Something Else. < 1151181215 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Feed it the input and the output, and collect the Something Else. There's your program. < 1151181229 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then to run it, feed in the input and the Something Else to get the output. < 1151182046 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It'd be a black box of computing. < 1151183472 0 :poiuy_qwert!i=poiuyqwe@toronto-HSE-ppp4227745.sympatico.ca JOIN :#esoteric < 1151183500 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :omglolzorz: http://hardware.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=189379&cid=15593478 < 1151183514 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(read the slashdot story for context) < 1151183835 0 :_W_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ihope, there can't ever be such a thing < 1151183846 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why not? < 1151183858 0 :_W_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unpossible < 1151183870 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... < 1151183872 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why? < 1151183937 0 :_W_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :worst possible case, you could just brute force all the possible inputs < 1151183945 0 :_W_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and decompile from that < 1151183986 0 :_W_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, no such thing as a black box < 1151184001 0 :_W_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :all boxes CAN be picked apart, one way or another < 1151184024 0 :_W_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"black box" is a way to think of something, not an actual thing < 1151184049 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Brute force can be infeasible. < 1151184064 0 :_W_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in _practice_ yes, but I was assuming you were talking theory < 1151184077 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nope, I'm tlaking practice. < 1151184090 0 :_W_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in _practice_ any irreversible obfuscation is bound to make a program too slow < 1151184158 0 :_W_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and if you allow physical barriers, such a self-destruct on opening, it's just a matter of locking a computer including software into such a box < 1151184168 0 :_W_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nothing complex needed < 1151184242 0 :_W_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(and you could still reverse engineer, and create an equivalent program yourself, and modify that) < 1151184256 0 :_W_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a lost cause really < 1151184257 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What if you ran the programs on hardware designed to interpret the language? < 1151184280 0 :_W_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hardware that can't be picked apart you mean? (see my self-destructing box) < 1151184300 0 :_W_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you don't need a separate language < 1151184316 0 :_W_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a regular x86 or whatever is all you need, just lock it into such a box < 1151184448 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nope. Crystal-clear hardware designed to run opaque software. < 1151184483 0 :_W_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you can analyse the hardware, you can replicate it, and modify it < 1151184531 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sure, you can modify the hardware, but the software would still be semi-immutable. < 1151184568 0 :_W_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, how do you propose to make this software uncleanable? < 1151184577 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Uncleanable? < 1151184586 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :As in clean room? < 1151184607 0 :_W_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1151184614 0 :_W_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in undecompilable < 1151184647 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I dunno. < 1151184657 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was just wondering if it was possible. < 1151184657 0 :_W_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what kind of language do you envision that can't be decompiled to, say C, and refactored until it made sense < 1151184677 0 :_W_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :theoretically or practically? < 1151184680 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the problem with programs that are hard to decompile is thay may very well be hard to compile.interpret, too < 1151184692 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/\./\// < 1151184695 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Practically unbreakable. < 1151184709 0 :_W_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ihope, you'd have to make some revolutionary breakthrough < 1151184713 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And practical to run and such. < 1151184720 0 :_W_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :noone who have tried so far have come close (see: copy protection schemes) < 1151184774 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not concerned with copy-protection, just modify-protection. < 1151184782 0 :_W_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the same principles applies < 1151184800 0 :_W_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the copy-protectors don't want the evil crackers to understand how their copy protection works so they can circumvent it < 1151184839 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I see. < 1151184846 0 :_W_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :granted it's a bit easier to find that one call/longjmp and alter it < 1151184859 0 :_W_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is possible in 99% of them < 1151184889 0 :_W_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but even that 1% gets cracked eventually < 1151185001 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, if we really wanted to make this computer, we could start with RSA... < 1151185002 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::-) < 1151185010 0 :_W_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how will that help? < 1151185029 0 :_W_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :with RSA presumably the machine code would be decrypted SOMEWHERE < 1151185036 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Um... < 1151185038 0 :_W_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so just hook into that SOMEWHERE and read out the cleaned code < 1151185046 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean RSA would *be* the code. < 1151185051 0 :_W_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what < 1151185073 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, you start with a number, and encrypt it repeatedly, and you'd be computing < 1151185081 0 :_W_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... < 1151185085 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, I need to pop out for a while... < 1151185087 0 :_W_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not very useful computing tho < 1151185091 0 :_W_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wildly inefficient < 1151185125 0 :_W_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you could even get something turing compatible < 1151186018 0 :poiuy_qwert!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i have a dos program that i want to take a screenshot of, but any screenshot i take turns up black. anyone know how to fix that? < 1151186083 0 :lindi-!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :poiuy_qwert: what program are you using to take the screenshot? < 1151186106 0 :poiuy_qwert!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ive tried Print Screen, SnagIt, and some other one... < 1151186129 0 :lindi-!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :poiuy_qwert: you mean you are not running the dos program on a dos system? < 1151186144 0 :poiuy_qwert!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no on windows < 1151186162 0 :lindi-!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :blah, then you lose :) < 1151186170 0 :poiuy_qwert!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :really? < 1151186208 0 :_W_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've not had any problem screenshotting dos screens on my ssytem < 1151186219 0 :_W_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :using the buildt-in windows thing < 1151186252 0 :poiuy_qwert!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::/ < 1151186270 0 :_W_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what kind of program is it? < 1151186287 0 :poiuy_qwert!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :its a game < 1151186297 0 :_W_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :does it change the screen mode? < 1151186307 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :poiuy_qwert: do you run it in a window? < 1151186307 0 :poiuy_qwert!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it goes fullscreen < 1151186309 0 :_W_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that'll probably snag windows < 1151186312 0 :_W_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1151186321 0 :_W_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :try to run it in a window < 1151186325 0 :_W_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alt+enter < 1151186325 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tried alt+enter to force window mode? < 1151186330 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1151186336 0 :poiuy_qwert!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :k < 1151186338 0 :poiuy_qwert!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'll try < 1151186369 0 :poiuy_qwert!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it just minimizes it < 1151186392 0 :_W_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :try to change the dos options for it < 1151186397 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is it very CPU hog? < 1151186409 0 :poiuy_qwert!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :its not a hog < 1151186412 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if not, you can try using DosBox < 1151186418 0 :poiuy_qwert!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and i went to preferences and it said it was in window mode < 1151186442 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can't run a graphical dos program in a window < 1151186456 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :IME, at least < 1151186472 0 :lindi-!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SimonRC: well, you can fix it to use SDL < 1151186491 0 :poiuy_qwert!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::/ < 1151186498 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lindi-: eh? < 1151186502 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :with DosBox you can, http://dosbox.sourceforge.net/ < 1151186508 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1151186513 0 :lindi-!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SimonRC: hmm? < 1151186516 0 :lindi-!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SimonRC: why not? < 1151186557 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok, last time I tried to find a way to do it, I didn;t find one < 1151186561 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :never mind < 1151186571 0 :lindi-!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SimonRC: what program did you try to port? < 1151186589 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wasn;t porting it, just running it < 1151186607 0 :lindi-!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SimonRC: well that "fix" includes things people usually call "porting" < 1151186615 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :who was talking about porting things? < 1151186625 0 :lindi-!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mentioned "fixing" < 1151186631 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1151186639 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I didn;t say I had sourcew < 1151186661 0 :lindi-!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SimonRC: blah proprietary crap then :( < 1151186676 0 :lindi-!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that'll limit your options indeed < 1151186697 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :_The Incredible Machine_ is not crap. < 1151186704 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :neither IMO is Rayman < 1151186730 0 :_W_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SimonRC, you tried Armadillo run? < 1151186746 0 :_W_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's like a cross between BridgeBuilder and TIM < 1151186754 0 :_W_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(still "proprietary crap" tho) < 1151186777 0 :lindi-!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SimonRC: it is when it comes to doing development for it, hard to fix anything without source :/ < 1151186801 0 :_W_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unless you're good with fiddling with machine code/assembler/diassembled code < 1151186983 0 :_W_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Any of you happen to run netbeans? < 1151187608 0 :ChanServ!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :ACK! SIGSEGV! < 1151187702 0 :ChanServ!ChanServ@services. JOIN :#esoteric < 1151187702 0 :irc.freenode.net!unknown@unknown.invalid MODE #esoteric :+o ChanServ < 1151188703 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :_W_: I've used it < 1151188717 0 :_W_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm trying to get files to save in UTF-8 < 1151188726 0 :_W_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :java files save in it now, but nothing else < 1151188740 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :use PFE! < 1151188777 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :IIRC you can right-click on anything in the source tree in Netbeans and hit update to get it check for external changes < 1151188789 0 :_W_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :PFE? < 1151188800 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!google PFE < 1151188810 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :darn < 1151188825 0 :_W_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pfizer, Inc. (stock symbol) Pacific Fruit Express Company Packet Filtering Engine < 1151188844 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nonono < 1151188847 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :theeditor < 1151188850 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the editor < 1151188851 0 :_W_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah I found it < 1151188865 0 :_W_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm already coding java in netbeans tho, and enjoy all the refactoring and automation features < 1151188911 0 :_W_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :would be a bit of a pain to keep two editors open when experimenting < 1151188957 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the trick is to use a language that doesn't need a special-editor to use sensibly < 1151188966 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*cough*Haskell*cough* < 1151188970 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or Joy < 1151188972 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or J < 1151188975 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or K < 1151188980 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or Ruby < 1151188991 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or dozens of other langs < 1151189027 0 :_W_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm sure all of those could use some automation in their editing < 1151189054 0 :_W_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at the very least, they all benefit from search and possibly search/replace < 1151189094 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bah! Get a real typesystem! < 1151189137 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you need an editor that turns some simple input into a more complex thing in the source code, try making the more complicated thing the official for for the source code. < 1151189147 0 :_W_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's not what I need tho < 1151189159 0 :_W_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :autocomplete for instance, is a lifesaver < 1151189169 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what for? < 1151189171 0 :_W_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and no, not because the language is too verbose < 1151189175 0 :_W_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for class names for instance < 1151189199 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you're writing Java, right? < 1151189208 0 :_W_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes... < 1151189226 0 :_W_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :when you use libraries from 100 different people, it can be a bit of a pain to type out all the package and class names < 1151189235 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what are you writing, BTW? < 1151189251 0 :_W_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right now? just experimenting with my graph language < 1151189269 0 :_W_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought I'd be perverse enough to use unicode arrow up and arrow down as operators :p < 1151189280 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, perl does it < 1151189291 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, this is the *ideal* time to switch the project to a better language < 1151189316 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or rather, mor suited < 1151189324 0 :_W_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but java is by far the language I am most familiar with generate code in and with < 1151189331 0 :_W_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :BCEL etc < 1151189345 0 :_W_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*generating < 1151189349 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a great time to learn a new language, then < 1151189358 0 :_W_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you know of something better? < 1151189369 0 :_W_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or are you suggesting I compile to c or something? < 1151189388 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :waitamo, *how* are you using Java? < 1151189429 0 :_W_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am using java to read source files of my special language, and using BCEL to write out a compiled class file from that source < 1151189458 0 :_W_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :BCEL=ByteCode Engineering Library btw < 1151189462 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, so it is written in Java and compiles to the JVM? < 1151189467 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, I googled it < 1151189487 0 :_W_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :makes it *really* easy to write a compiler < 1151189497 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1151189549 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Personally, I recognise this as fundamentally a problem of turning a datastructure into another datastructure, i.e. a pure function. < 1151189561 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Therefore I would attack it with Haskell. < 1151189620 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I might make it spit out horrible Java at the end which gets compiled without me everhaving to look at it. < 1151189634 0 :_W_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are two objectives that needs to be met of course; one is to have something that is easy to compile TO, and the other, something that can easilly do the compiling to that thing < 1151189656 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(or I could butcher up the minijava->C compiler I have been given for my 3rd-year project) < 1151189678 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why do these langs have to be the same lang? < 1151189699 0 :_W_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they don't, it's just that the combination java->java has been the best I've experienced so far < 1151189708 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :IIRC, there is a cross-compiler to the JVM for Haskell anyway < 1151189712 0 :_W_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :even simpler than using bison/flex etc < 1151189732 0 :_W_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, but is it simpler to *output* haskell than jva bytecode? < 1151189734 0 :_W_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*java < 1151189737 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :erm, they are parser-generators, not bytecode generators < 1151189747 0 :_W_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, I know, but same purpose < 1151189750 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :_W_: quite possibly yess < 1151189759 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :_W_: eh < 1151189769 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what does BCEL actually *do*? < 1151189774 0 :_W_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nothing < 1151189776 0 :_W_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's just a model < 1151189802 0 :_W_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but with it, you don't have to consider syntax at all < 1151189811 0 :_W_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :all is enforced by the model < 1151189833 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which part of the compiling do you use it for? < 1151189837 0 :_W_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just say "add an instruction to this method, that adds this and this variable" < 1151189842 0 :_W_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it does that < 1151189846 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, ok < 1151189887 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I could write a Haskell library to do that, though it would take me ages to make it as good as I hope BCEL is. < 1151189896 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :y'know typecheking, and the like < 1151189899 0 :_W_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :indeed < 1151189927 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I assume anything you can persuade BCEL to output will compile correctly? < 1151189940 0 :_W_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :BCEL *is* the compiler essentially < 1151189947 0 :_W_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :valid bytecode is what it writes < 1151189960 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1151189962 0 :_W_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and yeah, I don't think you can get it to write bytecode that java rejects < 1151189975 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :have you seen the JVM spec? < 1151189979 0 :_W_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1151189991 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :very OOO, isn't it? < 1151189994 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::-) < 1151190012 0 :_W_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what do you mean? < 1151190020 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1151190024 0 :_W_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the actual spec documents? the VM? < 1151190045 0 :_W_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, the VM still has a concept of objects < 1151190084 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Object-Orientation-Oriented < 1151190091 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is what I meant < 1151190108 0 :_W_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh yes < 1151190883 0 :bsmntbombdood!n=gavin@unaffiliated/bsmntbombdood JOIN :#esoteric < 1151191916 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bsmntbombdood: how do you hide your hostname? < 1151191934 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have been fiddling with CVhanserv for 5 mins but I can't figure it out < 1151191942 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :/msg a staffer and ask them to give you a cloack < 1151191952 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmf < 1151191967 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION wonders why nickserv can't do that < 1151191988 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it cloaks a fair amount fo stuff < 1151192758 0 :tokigun!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"¼­¹ö °ü°è»ó 12½Ã°£ µ¿¾È ¾Èµå·Î¸Þ´Ù °ü±¤ °¡¿À´Ï ±ä±ÞÇÑ ¿¬¶ôÀº ¼ÕÀüÈ­¸¦ ¾²°Å³ª ±ò²ûÇÏ°Ô Æ÷±âÇϽøé ÁÁ½À´Ï´Ù. ¤©¤©¤©;;;" < 1151193239 0 :_W_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://freenode.net/faq.shtml#cloaks < 1151193400 0 :lindi-!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SimonRC: would be nice if minijava supported input