00:00:39 <ivan`> http://www.fiftythree.org/etherkiller/ forever
00:02:00 <ivan`> if you're not a cisco tech
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00:31:57 <ihope_> <pikhq> It's pure math, and therefore untyped.
00:32:03 <ihope_> Who said math was untyped?
00:33:27 <ihope_> I use the Hindley-Milner type system with multi-parameter typeclasses, myself :-P
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00:35:02 <ihope_> Dude, it's Haskell's type system :-)
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00:38:46 <lament> haskell is not precisely math.
00:39:12 <lament> i think what pikhq meant by 'pure math', in any case, is the usual math notation.
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00:39:46 <lament> which is indeed untyped
00:40:55 <ihope_> I wouldn't call it untyped, since "if 3, then 0, otherwise 5" doesn't really mean anything.
00:41:06 <lament> that's not math notation, either.
00:41:16 <pikhq> I meant "the notation you could expect to see in your Algebra textbook", which would be the usual mathematical notation. . .
00:41:49 <GregorR-W> ihope_: The math notation for that would be a big curly brace with two expressions (0 and 5), with one saying "if 3" after it and the other saying "otherwise"
00:42:12 <ihope_> How about "pi implies 2"?
00:42:58 <lament> yeah, okay. operations are typed.
00:44:07 <lament> i guess it's too much to consider taht a "run-time-error"
00:44:32 <lament> pikhq: by the way, algebra is not turing-complete
00:45:11 <ihope_> You mean algebra doesn't allow first-class functions?
00:45:14 <lament> pikhq: very simple test: try making an algebraic statement that causes an infinite loop
00:45:48 <GregorR-W> That's not an infinite loop, that's just an invalid equation.
00:45:57 <GregorR-W> f(x) = f(x) MIGHT be an infinite loop (recursion)
00:46:14 <lament> x=x is neither an infinite loop nor an invalid equation
00:46:24 <GregorR-W> Well, it's a valid equation, but not a useful one :P
00:46:25 <lament> it's perfectly valid equation to which the answer is 'anything'
00:46:40 <lament> ihope_: and the answer to that one is 'no solutions'
00:47:07 <lament> if you have first-class functions obviously you have TC
00:47:17 <ihope_> So algebra doesn't have those?
00:47:34 <pikhq> f(x)=f(x+1);f(-oo)
00:47:42 <lament> the one in pikhq's textbook probably doesn't :)
00:48:04 <pikhq> I'm in Calc, actually. . .
00:48:05 <ihope_> pikhq: define negative infinity
00:48:18 <lament> pikhq: f(-oo) is not a valid expression
00:48:30 <lament> pikhq: but f(0) would work just as well
00:48:34 <pikhq> ihope_: Negative infinity, in math, is a number.
00:48:46 <lament> pikhq: not usually, no.
00:48:48 <pikhq> It's like saying "define 3".
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00:49:20 <lament> pikhq: negative infinite, in math, is not a number under most commonly used number systems.
00:49:31 <lament> pikhq: in particular, it's not an integer, and it's not a real.
00:49:31 <pikhq> oo = 1 + 1 + .. + 1
00:49:47 <ihope_> pikhq: define "..", then.
00:49:55 <pikhq> lament: Never said it was either an integer or a real number. Just said it was a number.
00:50:11 <pikhq> ihope_: Replace with an infinite amount of "1 +".
00:50:31 <lament> pikhq: two bricks and a dead cat is also a number in some number system.
00:50:48 <ihope_> pikhq: define an infinite amount.
00:51:03 <ihope_> lament: brick = 1, dead cat = i?
00:51:20 <lament> ihope_: i've never seen bricks that were equal to 1.
00:51:27 <lament> ihope_: bricks are usually bricks, not integers.
00:51:52 <pikhq> Fine. Infinity is a number which is greater than any real number.
00:52:02 <lament> pikhq: there're many numbers like that.
00:52:08 <pikhq> Negative infinity, therefore, is a number which is less than any real number.
00:52:21 <ihope_> pikhq: is negative infinity the highest such number?
00:52:50 <ihope_> If so, then we're getting somewhere.
00:52:51 <pikhq> lament: What? You can think of a finite number which is greater than any number in the set of real numbers?
00:53:08 <lament> pikhq: no, but i can think of many different infinite ones
00:53:39 <lament> for example, infinity, infinity+1, infinity+2... :)
00:53:46 * lament is having more fun than ihope_
00:54:22 <lament> i thought we went through all this in detail when we were discussing Banana Scheem.
00:54:27 <ihope_> That also implies that negative infinity plus one is negative infinity or below, since negative infinity plus one is either higher than negative infinity, or not higher.
00:54:46 <lament> ihope_: actually i think -oo + 1 is -oo
00:55:04 <ihope_> If negative infinity plus one is higher than negative infinity, it must either be a real number or something higher than a real number.
00:55:15 <lament> ihope_: it's like this:
00:55:56 <lament> addition isn't commutative with these guys...
00:56:50 <lament> ihope_: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ordinal_arithmetic
00:57:09 <lament> ihope_: oo is 'omega' in that article
00:57:44 <ihope_> And negative infinity?
00:58:05 <lament> ordinals don't really have that
00:58:14 <lament> so you just take positive ones, and put a minus in front.
00:58:53 <lament> i doubt you could construct anything like reals from ordinals
00:59:03 <lament> like you can from integers
00:59:22 <fizzie> Why use oo when there's ∞?
00:59:49 <GregorR-W> fizzie: These people don't know unicode *heheheh*
00:59:58 <GregorR-W> Some of them probably see ∞ as a box X-D
01:00:19 <fizzie> Sounds like an abbreviation for "ass-hat".
01:00:44 <ihope_> Actually, make that "pch".
01:01:32 <lament> actually in the context of reals, infinity (oo, not omega) can indeed be a number
01:01:39 <lament> then you're using the extended number line
01:01:51 <lament> unfortunately (fortunately?) nobody uses the extended number line
01:02:01 <lament> it breaks some properties of the reals
01:02:43 * lament doesn't actually remember which ones
01:04:30 <ihope_> Well, can infinity be reduced to other terms?
01:04:55 <ihope_> It's just plain infinity?
01:05:13 <lament> yes, you define it as the limit of unbounded sequences
01:06:01 <macgeek> and how can you limit something that is unbounded?
01:06:24 <fizzie> With an infinitely large limit, of course. :p
01:07:50 <lament> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extended_real_line
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01:08:54 <fizzie> Nice disclaimer, that "Note that this is not a judgment about their "reality" or lack of it".
01:09:16 <fizzie> Probably to avoid the "Stop discrimination of infinities! They're just as real as you and me!" people.
01:09:29 <oerjanj> i wish to take exception to the idea that noone uses the extended real line, as I have used it.
01:09:48 <lament> oerjanj: for shits and giggles?
01:10:21 <oerjanj> it's a perfectly nice compact Hausdorff space.
01:11:14 <oerjanj> (note that "perfectly nice" are not intended as technical terms, though somebody surely has invented them)
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01:13:06 <oerjanj> you would probably want to look at surreal numbers, which combine reals and ordinals
01:13:37 <oerjanj> although those i don't know if anyone uses
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01:16:51 <fizzie> "The real numbers are the dependable breadwinner of the family, the complete ordered field we all rely on. The complex numbers are a slightly flashier but still respectable younger brother: not ordered, but algebraically complete. The quaternions, being noncommutative, are the eccentric cousin who is shunned at important family gatherings. But the octonions are the crazy old uncle nobody lets out of the attic: they are nonassociative."
01:18:26 <fizzie> But perhaps not so in family gatherings.
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01:19:04 <macgeek> RodgerTheGreat: you mean Plain?
01:19:20 <macgeek> needs some work though, I think
01:19:28 <RodgerTheGreat> I meant, did you create an interpreter, or just a spec?
01:21:34 <macgeek> I haven't gotten to the interpreter yet
01:21:45 <macgeek> I created an interpreter for TwoStep though
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01:24:06 <Razor-X> I just thought of a place to get good Trigonometry and Logarithm information for the contest.
01:24:16 <Razor-X> Of course, if I can think of it, so can the contestants.
01:24:29 <RodgerTheGreat> RealBASIC is a pretty nice language- I'm trying to decide wether I want to experiment with it in rosetta.
01:24:51 <RodgerTheGreat> Razor-X: if you say "wikipedia" as this source of information, I shall die laughing.
01:25:05 <Razor-X> Much more specific than that.
01:25:50 <Razor-X> Logarithm information too.
01:26:21 <Razor-X> Of course, that's for me to know and our contestants to never find out!
01:26:49 <RodgerTheGreat> you can always taunt them with it after the competition ends.
01:27:51 <RodgerTheGreat> The first thing I ever coded in RealBASIC was a BF interpreter.
01:28:29 <Razor-X> I think I shall taunt them.
01:28:51 <Razor-X> Nya nya! Good source of information! Nya nya!
01:30:56 <ihope_> Well, are you allowed to tell other committee members?
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01:43:02 <ihope_> Sorry, but you're perfectly sane, and only insane people are allowed in ##quantum.
01:47:53 * pikhq sets up Bombadil. . .
01:48:14 <Razor-X> So, what category are you entering, pikhq ?
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01:50:23 <pikhq> I'm thinking about the OISC.
01:55:15 * ihope_ finally burns his Linux disk
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03:59:56 <RodgerTheGreat> hey, my buddies and I are trying to come up with a logo for our community website- would anyone care to stop by the concept gallery and vote your opinion? http://feesh.nonlogic.org/logocontest/gal.php
04:00:55 <GregorR> They all suck and your life is a failure.
04:02:15 <pikhq> You shall have your heart ripped out and eaten by the Aztecs.
04:02:20 <GregorR> It's the only one that has anything to do with logic :-P
04:02:24 <pikhq> I mean "Hi", as well.
04:03:17 <RodgerTheGreat> Being in this channel always makes me feel so warm and fuzzy inside.
04:03:39 <GregorR> My new language is defeating me :(
04:04:15 <GregorR> Abstracting all scopes to anonymous functions is making it difficult to figure out a return syntax that works properly and doesn't suck.
04:05:55 <GregorR> I've thought of some solutions, but all of them were either ugly or blackbox magic.
04:06:19 <GregorR> Can I get a "I dislike it" button for this logo thing?
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06:00:52 <Arrogant> GregorR, doesn't seem like enough information to go by :D
06:01:04 <GregorR> Yeah, I guess that's true...
06:01:13 <GregorR> I need to figure out how to flesh that out :-P
06:01:54 <GregorR> Well, Plof is a hybrid between OO and functional.
06:02:59 <GregorR> Yeah, I've seen a /bit/ of Io.
06:03:07 <Arrogant> All flow control is defined as functions
06:03:18 <GregorR> Yeah, that's true of Plof too.
06:03:22 <GregorR> A few more keywords though ;)
06:03:46 <Arrogant> I like Io but I can see several problems with it
06:03:49 <GregorR> Plof isn't intended to be estoeric.
06:04:22 <Arrogant> http://splattercoding.blogspot.com/ Here's some Io code and stuff.
06:04:44 <Arrogant> One of these days I plan on making something similar to Io, but fixing the fundamental problems with it, and call it Isis.
06:05:28 <GregorR> A.type = array(ref SomeMixins, ref A);
06:05:57 <Arrogant> How will you handle operator overloading?
06:06:04 <GregorR> Not sure whether I will yet.
06:06:14 <GregorR> I obviously can't overload + or =, I need those.
06:06:29 <GregorR> And if I can't overload +, it's ridiculous to overload -, /, *, +=, etc, etc.
06:06:35 <GregorR> So overloading would end up worthless :(
06:06:45 <GregorR> I do /want/ to be able to use overloading. I just don't know how yet.
06:06:56 <GregorR> One sec, logging in as GregorR-L
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06:10:03 <Arrogant> One of Io's problems is that, while functions are 1st-class
06:10:18 <Arrogant> Which means that you constantly have to use getSlot("funcname")
06:10:29 <Arrogant> Otherwise you end up setting off the function all over the place.
06:14:11 <GregorR-L> I have it so well defined in my head.
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06:16:35 <GregorR-L> I don't suppose anybody has any /specific/ points for me to look at?
06:16:43 <GregorR-L> Since it's too ill-defined on that page 8-D
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06:24:16 <GregorR-L> Hey look, it's an anonymous function!
06:26:02 <GregorR-L> What's a good example program >_> <_<
06:42:17 <anonfunc> anonfunc: hello is also accepted.
06:45:57 <thematrixeatsyou> anyone who declares it as Private Sub hello() As AnonFunc will be shot
06:46:47 <GregorR-L> hello = (x as function) { println("Hello to " + x()); }; hello(anonfunc);
06:47:44 <thematrixeatsyou> anyone who declares it as that will be awarded a cookie from GregorR
06:58:20 <GregorR-L> Oh come on, somebody must have a good example program :-P
06:58:27 <GregorR-L> Something a bit more complicated than the traditional examples.
06:58:33 <GregorR-L> But not too difficult to implement :-P
06:58:45 <GregorR-L> Not too difficult in a real language that is :P
07:22:28 <Arrogant> GregorR-L, why not a r-d-parser
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18:12:39 <Razor-X> RodgerTheGreat: I missed you last night. Yeah, can you make the tutorial?
18:14:22 <RodgerTheGreat> for now, I managed to recover my sourcecode and type it up. If you give us a moment...
18:15:47 <Razor-X> I should learn TI-83 ASM and code a Unlambda compiler.
18:15:56 <RodgerTheGreat> it's pretty limited (one neuron, two inputs), and basically only good for being trained to simulate logic gates, but it's a useful example.
18:16:42 <RodgerTheGreat> I actually don't mind TI-BASIC- I'm pretty comfortable with BASIC variants in general.
18:17:20 <Razor-X> It's not that the language is a pain, I mean it's a pain to code it into the calculator with that horrible keypad :D.
18:18:57 <Razor-X> I think I'll make a neural net my first Scheme project.
18:19:11 <RodgerTheGreat> if nothing else, the 83+ offers a lot of really nice variable types.
18:19:28 <RodgerTheGreat> note that this app is more of a single neuron than an actual "net".
18:19:58 <Razor-X> The only thing I've coded on it (had the patience for, I mean) is a coin flipped (because I use coin flips a lot to make decisions and hate losing coins) and a dice roller to play D&D on the go.
18:20:35 <Razor-X> 3E and I play GURPS. I highly prefer GURPS.
18:20:53 <Razor-X> Of course, GURPS is just a *d6
18:21:06 <RodgerTheGreat> Gurps is pretty cool- I like the "atomic horror" supplement.
18:21:30 <Razor-X> I don't play GURPS with actual supplements. It's generally the DM's job.
18:21:45 <fizzie> TI-BASIC (at least in '86) would be few magnitudes more usable if it had any sort of local variables.
18:22:04 <Razor-X> I was thinking of trying out a GURPS game in a WWI setting where every character is in a different European country (like Diplomacy).
18:22:46 <RodgerTheGreat> I mostly DM, so I have a closet full of game books. Ironically, I tend to play pretty "fast and loose", so I've been known to come to a game with just a few sheets of notes and a D20. :)
18:22:59 <Razor-X> Notes? Bah, who needs notes? :P
18:23:21 * GregorR-W plays with just the bad random number generator built into his head.
18:23:26 <RodgerTheGreat> DM's need notes. I don't like memorizing dungeon layouts.
18:24:13 <Razor-X> I also like playing diceless modifications. Someone should make an actual diceless TRPG ruleset.
18:24:47 <RodgerTheGreat> having a physical D20 is primarily for the player's psychological benefit- it makes them feel like I'm bound by rules of probability, rather than having godlike power over the game.
18:25:47 <Razor-X> GURPS really uses dice well, but D20 systems (IMO) completely overuse dice.
18:27:49 <RodgerTheGreat> aside from combat, traps, poisons, etc. I rarely use dice.
18:28:12 <Razor-X> It also makes players feel more in control.
18:28:19 <Razor-X> (Because they do have more control.)
18:28:21 <RodgerTheGreat> most of my players know not to bother getting ranks in social skills, because I always make them roleplay bluff checks.
18:28:22 <fizzie> Misread "diceless TRPG ruleset" => "dickless TRPG ruleset".
18:28:25 <Razor-X> Depending on your diceless system, of course.
18:28:56 <RodgerTheGreat> hm. naked RPG's. "No barriers between you and your character". lol
18:29:02 <kipple_> what's a TRPG? how is it different from an RPG?
18:29:10 <Razor-X> Your skin doesen't count as a barrier?
18:29:26 <Razor-X> In contrast with a CPRG, a Computer RPG.
18:29:50 <RodgerTheGreat> most "RPG's" I've played on the computer are insanely tedious.
18:30:38 <kipple_> I've played WoW a bit, and it was fun, but not like a real (read: tabletop) RPG
18:30:42 <Razor-X> FF6j, Chrono Trigger, Vagrant Story (stretching the RPG definition), and Tales of Symphonia are the best I've played.
18:31:00 <Razor-X> Diablo is a great LAN-game-in-5-minutes game.
18:31:32 <Razor-X> And I can't stand MMORPGs.
18:31:44 <RodgerTheGreat> Even neverwinter nights gets really boring to me after a while, though- it's pretty much all about combat and leveling up.
18:32:26 <kipple_> same can be said about regular D&D though
18:32:27 <Razor-X> MMOs just reward the amount of time you put into it. Most of them are horribly boring in the first 10 levels.
18:32:44 <RodgerTheGreat> and the only way to be good is playing insane amounts- yeah.
18:33:10 <kipple_> true, but MMOs also depend on how you play it
18:33:47 <Razor-X> I haven't found any MMO that can be fun *without* at least an initial investiture of 40 hours+.
18:33:49 <RodgerTheGreat> kipple: less so. computer RPG's are significantly more "directed" and "specific goal oriented" than tabletops.
18:34:31 <kipple_> WoW was a lot of fun the first 40 hours. it doesn't get more fun the more you play (in my opinion at least)
18:35:03 <kipple_> you just do the same thing anyway
18:35:07 <Razor-X> That and you also need people in the game.
18:35:30 <Razor-X> If you don't find a guild/group, you're going to have no fun until a moderately high level.
18:36:04 * RodgerTheGreat enjoys playing games solo or as a pair more than in a big group.
18:36:07 * kipple_ has thought about implementing a WoW BF interpreter
18:36:21 <RodgerTheGreat> my idea of the ultimate MMO would be something like Garry'sMod.
18:36:59 <Razor-X> They're a lot more free-form too, and most of them allow having fun at any level and any time dedication.
18:37:36 <RodgerTheGreat> the MUD's that focus too much on combat tend to have the same problem as normal MMO's, though.
18:41:05 <GregorR-W> Then doing a BF interpreter in it would probably be fairly trivial ;)
18:41:07 <kipple_> haven't really looked into it thoug
18:42:23 <kipple_> the biggest task would be to read the WoW API :)
18:44:28 <kipple_> anyway, since I have lots of way more interesting esoteric projects on hold too, it will never happen
18:45:10 <lament> wow sounds kinda neat, but certainly not neat enough to pay for it.
18:51:47 <lament> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/1/15/Graduale_Aboense_2.jpg
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19:05:42 * lament tries learning haskell, for the 238947th time
19:18:10 <Razor-X> You don't know Haskell?!!!111///!!!
19:18:49 <Razor-X> Then why are you trying to learn it again?
19:59:31 <lament> hah, never saw this before:
19:59:33 <lament> http://halogen.note.amherst.edu/%7Ejdtang/scheme_in_48/tutorial/overview.html
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21:20:02 <RodgerTheGreat> reverse-engineered as well as I could from my old TI-83+ listing. Hopefully, this will do what you need.
21:23:36 <Razor-X> I found a bit of material, and it seems like a lot of work :P
21:24:44 <Razor-X> Well, don't you have to make the thing retrain itself?
21:24:57 <Razor-X> It would make a great recursive function.
21:25:11 <RodgerTheGreat> when neurons only have to train themselves, it's easy as illustrated in my tut.
21:25:53 <RodgerTheGreat> it gets complicated when neurons also have to train the neurons that forward information to them.
21:26:20 <RodgerTheGreat> single-layer nets are more limited, BUT you can do OCR with them.
21:29:07 <Razor-X> Then why is a neural net difficult in a Esolang?
21:29:30 <RodgerTheGreat> because it's hard to tell people what you expect them to do without literally handing them an algoritm.
21:29:50 <Razor-X> You mean the training algorithm?
21:29:57 <Razor-X> (I haven't looked too deeply into it just yet.)
21:30:26 <RodgerTheGreat> pretty much every neural net system works the same, aside from the training algorithm.
21:31:06 <RodgerTheGreat> evaluation is always just the sum of inputs multiplied by their respective weights compared against a threshold to result in a boolean value.
21:31:30 <RodgerTheGreat> very much like how triggering works in an actual neuron (hence the name)
21:36:41 <Razor-X> One thing I saw showed the correlation between graphing and the Neural Net equation.
21:36:55 <Razor-X> That's pretty nifty, in fact.
21:37:16 <Razor-X> You can easily emulate a computer with a Neural Net the moment you can make a NAND gate with it.
21:37:59 <Razor-X> It would've been nifty seeing an OISC implemented in Neural Net fashion.
21:40:14 <RodgerTheGreat> OR, you could build a simulator powerful enough to try to teach the net to function that way (extremely hard)
21:40:31 <RodgerTheGreat> just simulating a net is easy, training it can be hard.
21:43:03 <RodgerTheGreat> hand-made neural nets could themselves qualify as an esolang.
21:44:45 <Razor-X> Why would that be difficult?
21:45:16 <Razor-X> Since we're only working with binary here, training should be dead simple.
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22:05:47 <RodgerTheGreat> you're oversimplifying this- OUTPUT is binary, but input, weighting, and evaluation should all be as close to analog as possible (floats). They can pretend to be some kinds of gates, but neurons != logic gates.
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22:06:19 <Razor-X> Huh? Then how can it be a logic gate?
22:07:23 <Razor-X> I was assuming that the edges previous to this have been already trained to make sure that it's only binary.
22:07:46 <Razor-X> If you assume that, then the training becomes a lot easier.
22:08:12 <GregorR-W> http://www.codu.org/plof/index.php?title=IfFormat < Takin' votes :P
22:09:15 <Razor-X> Even in a normal electrical circuit, you can hook up different inputs to something that only takes 0 and 1 and the result will come out undefined.
22:10:30 <Razor-X> Most people assume that the ``ultimate input'' of a microprocessor (being some code in some sort of ROM) is known to be 0 and 1, and doesen't produce any undefined effects.
22:12:46 <Razor-X> (Or you're supposed to design the FSM such that even given unknown input it should maintain a set of defined states.)
22:13:25 <Razor-X> GregorR-W's on other servers.
22:14:20 <Razor-X> It stands for War. We all know that.
22:14:45 <kipple_> No, no it stands for 'Wacko'
22:15:51 <lament> i still think it stands for Wacation
22:16:05 <Razor-X> Luckily, being OISC, the FSM will be relatively small.
22:16:05 <lament> so we know when GregorR-W is not at work.
22:16:24 <Razor-X> That fiend. Making us believe he's doing something useful.
22:17:33 <Razor-X> I say we tell Intel that he uses AMD at home!
22:18:08 <Razor-X> That just shows how badly the corporate machine works in America.
22:20:58 -!- kipple__ has joined.
22:21:18 <Razor-X> GregorR-W: Uggh. You're going to make people type out ``function'' and ``reference'' and ``string'' ?
22:21:51 <GregorR-W> You'd prefer "func", "ref", and .... "str"?
22:22:14 <Razor-X> Why do you think we call it ``sin'' and not ``sine'' ?
22:22:24 <GregorR-W> Razor-X: Because using math is a "sin"
22:22:29 <kipple__> how about symbols like !, @ and $ ?
22:22:47 <GregorR-W> kipple__: How about this isn't Perl and never will be (thankfully)
22:23:48 <lament> funktsiya, ssilka & stroka
22:24:26 <GregorR-W> http://www.codu.org/plof/index.php?title=LongWords
22:25:16 <Razor-X> Agh, that's a pain to type.
22:25:34 <Razor-X> Think of the poor QWERTY users, Gregor. The poor QWERTY users.
22:26:03 <lament> who the fuck uses qwerty anyways?
22:26:26 <lament> GregorR-W: it already has 'var' and not 'variable'
22:26:35 <GregorR-W> lament: Yeah, I noted that inconsistency >_>
22:26:37 <Arrogant> GregorR-W: Depends. "arr" is stupid.
22:26:56 <GregorR-W> OK, who prefers long words (perhaps except "arr")?
22:27:00 <Razor-X> Let's name ``references'' to ``arr''.
22:27:16 <Razor-X> Because that's what I think of when I think of pointers and references.
22:27:37 <Arrogant> Razor-X, not his fault you've got crossed wires
22:27:44 <Arrogant> GregorR-W, I prefer short words
22:27:51 <Arrogant> Because array is plenty short.
22:28:16 <GregorR-W> I guess it'll be at int float str obj func array ref global next var
22:28:40 <Razor-X> Because functions are fun?
22:29:40 <Razor-X> That way, music groupies who like the languages can use it as a synonym with ``Funk''.
22:29:56 <Razor-X> See? Something for everyone.
22:30:01 <Arrogant> GregorR-W, so no literal arrays?
22:30:22 <GregorR-W> Arrogant: Not at the moment, I may add a syntax for it but I'm sort of out ot symbols XD
22:30:42 <GregorR-W> The "array" function just generates an array from its parameters, so it's functionally similar.
22:30:59 <Arrogant> Well, yeah, depends on how often you're going to be creating an array
22:31:08 <Arrogant> Actually, bringing that up, why array over list?
22:31:33 <Razor-X> Are you going to add in an FFI later?
22:31:39 <GregorR-W> Well, I guess I was thinking about the internal representation ...
22:32:14 <GregorR-W> Razor-X: It's pretty much a necessity ...
22:32:17 <Razor-X> Or is this going to be completely compatible with C, like D?
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22:33:02 <Razor-X> Port ncurses! Port ncurses!
22:33:48 <Razor-X> How is the Parrot intermediary language?
22:34:17 <GregorR-W> It's sort of like assembly, but a bit more ... Idonno, suitable for dynamic typing and other funky features like that.
22:34:35 <Razor-X> I like Arrogant's summary better.
22:34:36 <Arrogant> You'll have to wait a long time before it becomes anything resembling useful.
22:34:56 <GregorR-W> Hm, that's unfortunately probably true >_>
22:35:08 <GregorR-W> The alternative is fairly bleak in terms of speed.
22:36:21 <Arrogant> Which I believe is pretty fast
22:36:36 <Arrogant> (But I only say that because that's what the _site_ says)
22:37:14 <Arrogant> Yeah, I was just thinking that
22:38:08 <GregorR-W> Neko seems awfully high-level to use as an intermediate language ...
22:38:22 <lament> GregorR-W: your language must not be terribly original :)
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22:38:54 <Razor-X> lament: It's not Esoteric.
22:38:58 <GregorR-W> lament: OMG, it has some of the same basic types as EVERY DYNAMICALLY TYPED LANGUAGE EVER
22:39:23 <Razor-X> Why do people have an infatuation with the Japanese word for cat? -_-''
22:39:51 <lament> GregorR-W: that's not true.
22:39:54 <lament> GregorR-W: it doesn't.
22:40:07 <Arrogant> Razor-X, people have an infatuation with the Japanese everything
22:40:14 <GregorR-W> OK people, exaggeration for the sake of emphasis.
22:40:24 <lament> Razor-X: because they're idiots.
22:40:38 <Razor-X> Neko's good and all IN JAPANESE.
22:41:10 <Arrogant> Razor-X, the creator of Neko is German I think
22:41:22 <Arrogant> Not American, like most japfags
22:41:47 <lament> Razor-X is a japfag and she's not american.
22:42:03 <Arrogant> Razor-X, taken from the CAT icon, I doubt it
22:42:13 <Arrogant> (Even if its not the same cat)
22:42:24 <GregorR-W> "japfag" ... slightly less, erm, dignified term for "rice queen"? :P
22:43:07 <Arrogant> GregorR-W, more like, fanboy/fangirl for all things japanese, "otaku"
22:43:10 <Razor-X> I also know French, for school and all.
22:43:50 <Razor-X> Estas mia kato! Mi amas mian kato! En tutan tempon, mi volas ke mi ekzistas apud mian katon!
22:45:08 <GregorR-W> How to emulate a conversation with lament:
22:45:24 <GregorR-W> <lament> That's stupid/ugly/uninteresting/poorly done.
22:45:38 <lament> quero ser ao lado de meu gato por toda minha vida
22:45:53 <lament> GregorR-W: well, it's true
22:46:04 <Arrogant> Yeah, if you want it done right, do it yourself
22:46:09 <lament> GregorR-W: i don't say that about things that are clever, beautiful, interesting and well done
22:46:20 <lament> for example i don't diss Haskell :)
22:46:37 <Razor-X> I know only enough French to translate Wikipedia articles to English, Esperanto, and Japanese though, not that I'm too sad.
22:47:31 <Razor-X> Well, if I can understand the French, I can translate it into any language.
22:47:51 <lament> translate into toki pona.
22:47:57 <Razor-X> I should learn that some day.
22:48:03 <GregorR-W> I only know the following español: ¡USTÉD ES EN LA EEUU! ¡HABLE INGLÉS!
22:48:29 <Razor-X> I know a lot of Spanish because it's spoken very often around here.
22:48:34 <GregorR-W> Erm, got a bit excited with the accent, take it off the É :P
22:49:40 <Razor-X> There's this odd local rap song about gasoline that's all the rage.
22:50:09 <Razor-X> Gasoline is: Smelly, not very cost effective, keeping us in a previous age. Nothing to write a rap song about.
22:50:25 <Razor-X> Oh, it's written in Spanish too :P
22:54:34 <Razor-X> Has anything even been written for NekoVM?
22:55:23 <lament> probabyl some weird anime thing.
22:55:24 <Arrogant> There's a language called Haxe
22:56:02 <Arrogant> And note that I didn't suggest Neko, I merely brought it up as possibly more practical than Parrot
22:56:54 <lament> it can't work with files
22:57:40 <Razor-X> Aren't there two intermediary languages, the Parrot ASM and the intermediary language?
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22:58:02 <Arrogant> Which compiles to Parrot bytecode
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22:58:56 <GregorR-W> File I/O, integration into the host system, there are a plethora of reasons NOT to use z-machine.
22:59:19 <Arrogant> Razor-X, it's not very feature complete
22:59:33 <Razor-X> Oh, so we end up going straight to PASM?
23:00:02 <GregorR-W> I think PASM ought to be feature-complete enough as a target platform *shrugs*
23:00:05 <jix> well compiling c code includes a lot of intermediate steps too...
23:00:25 <GregorR-W> jix: Usu C->ASM->relocatable object file(s)->executable
23:00:27 <Razor-X> But C code is a project how many years old?
23:00:35 <jix> GregorR-W: no
23:00:45 <jix> you're missing some steps....
23:00:46 <GregorR-W> Well, there's a preprocessor there ...
23:00:59 <jix> well c uses 2 different tree representations...
23:01:01 <GregorR-W> C->preprocessed C->Intermediate language->ASM->
23:01:21 -!- Arrogant has quit ("Leaving").
23:01:26 -!- RodgerTheGreat has quit (Remote closed the connection).
23:01:33 * GregorR-W knows nothing about gcc internals.
23:01:38 <jix> GregorR-W: yes.... one is a stricter version of the first IIRC
23:01:52 <jix> the first one is more c like the 2nd one more asm like
23:01:58 <jix> and there are optimizations at each stage...
23:02:04 <jix> so it makes sense probably...
23:02:05 <Razor-X> So Parrot was based around GCC?
23:02:26 -!- RodgerTheGreat has joined.
23:02:27 <Razor-X> But if PIL is featureful enough, you don't need PASM.
23:02:54 <GregorR-W> So you do /need/ PASM, you just don't need to see it.
23:02:58 <Razor-X> I mean, you don't directly need to work with PASM.
23:03:18 * pikhq hugs Bombadil. . .
23:03:38 <lament> GregorR-W: just compile it to Python.
23:03:54 <lament> GregorR-W: you can probably do it with sed :)
23:04:13 <GregorR-W> You seem to think that this language is not fundamentally different from other languages. In this belief, you are incorrect.
23:04:28 <lament> well, i looked at the specs page
23:04:36 <lament> there's nothing there to show otherwise
23:04:37 <GregorR-W> It's incomplete, to say the least :P
23:04:59 <GregorR-W> I'm workin' on it ... not good at specs X_X
23:05:09 <lament> so what are you gonna add, that's fundamentally different from other languages? :)
23:05:25 <GregorR-W> Well, for one, the object orientation I've already added is fundamentally different.
23:06:17 <GregorR-W> Secondly, the scope, how scopes are built, and how scopes are passed in function pointers.
23:06:25 <GregorR-W> Erm, s/function pointers/functions/
23:06:40 <lament> from your description, the object model seems to be much like javascript's
23:08:12 <lament> the scope passing seems interesting
23:08:14 <GregorR-W> Mmmmmmmm ... there are similarities. That may be the closest, but it's not really the same.
23:08:37 <lament> can't think of anything that has that
23:09:04 <lament> (but you can do it in python very easily)
23:10:20 <jix> OMGLOLIHASIT!
23:42:57 <Razor-X> I think I'll learn Scheme and then simulate an adder circuit with a neural net written in Scheme.
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