00:00:05 <RodgerTheGreat> by "true", do you refer to the Dartmouth timeshare version?
00:00:54 <calamari> I was finding a bunch of conflicting information about it and wanted to find out the truth from the source
00:00:59 <calamari> I didn't actually expect a reply
00:01:22 <calamari> now the question is what did I do with that mail? I know I saved a hardcopy someplace
00:01:59 <RodgerTheGreat> I don't think modern niceties like labels, optional line numbering and floating-point values really dillute the language, but it bothers me a lot when I see a "BASIC" that uses curly brackets everywhere, has strict typing, and requires variable predeclaration.
00:02:32 <calamari> well bfbasic should work for you then
00:03:02 <calamari> thanks, it was fun writing it too
00:03:25 <calamari> of course, now that I'm taking this compilers course, I have the urge to rewrite all my old compilers
00:03:57 <RodgerTheGreat> oh, wow- I didn't realize you were the author of BFBASIC.
00:05:17 <pikhq> My favorite way of writing a compiler: design the language so Tcl can parse it for me. :p
00:05:35 <pikhq> Works well for BFM, at least. ;)
00:06:12 <RodgerTheGreat> "Lost Kingdom" together with BFBASIC constitute one of the most impressive demonstrations of BF's capabilities to date, in my opinion.
00:06:45 <pikhq> LostKng, BTW, was written in BFBASIC. :p
00:07:15 <ihope> BF's capabilities?
00:07:26 <ihope> It's Turing-complete, kid :-P
00:07:31 <pikhq> It's Turing complete, and can therefore do anything. -_-'
00:07:48 <pikhq> (within reason: no halting problem solving for you)
00:07:49 <RodgerTheGreat> not in an abstract sense, but in the implementation of an actual complex app.
00:08:01 <RodgerTheGreat> there's a difference between something being possible and being pulled off.
00:08:23 <ihope> It's possible to make a C-to-BF compiler, you know.
00:08:30 <pikhq> BFMC will be more impressive if Gregor *works on it*. :p
00:08:52 <ihope> And a Haskell-to-BF, and Lisp-to-BF, and such.
00:09:00 <ihope> Curry- and Prolog-to-BF.
00:09:32 <pikhq> ihope: There *is* a C-to-BF, BTW.
00:09:34 <RodgerTheGreat> if you can get around the I/O limitations, it isn't that mind-numbing a concept.
00:10:24 <pikhq> Calamari has gotten a way of getting around the I/O limitations. . .
00:10:25 <RodgerTheGreat> something like an OS written in BF would most likely need a small amount of wrapper code made in another language to get around that problem.
00:11:05 <ihope> Just leave the I/O bit undefined.
00:12:36 <ihope> What'd it do, exactly?
00:13:18 <calamari> RodgerTheGreat: I wrote a tiny bf based os
00:13:42 <ihope> EsoAPI is just disk access?
00:13:48 <calamari> well.. that depends on your definition of functionall hehe
00:14:14 <ihope> Could you apply it to other operating systems to make even more operating systems?
00:14:28 <calamari> an6yhow.. it's that BOS link oin the bottom :)
00:14:56 <calamari> it basically gives you esoapi plus a bf interpreter
00:15:00 * oerjan listens carefully, and adds an EsoAPI wiki page
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00:15:24 <calamari> btw, esoapi has been somewhat taken over by pesoix
00:15:40 <pikhq> EsoAPI provides for an *idea* of getting complex I/O in Brainfuck, but nothing functional.
00:15:59 <ihope> (Am I capitalizing it right?)
00:17:23 <calamari> I started implementing PESOIX, but ran into some big problems
00:17:37 * ihope clicks: http://www.google.com/search?q=PESOIX
00:17:41 <calamari> although I don't think we knew each other when he started that
00:17:50 <RodgerTheGreat> ihope: http://catseye.mine.nu:8080/projects/pesoix/doc/pesoix.html
00:22:10 <pikhq> I might implement PESOIX sometime. . .
00:22:35 <pikhq> If I do so, I will, of course, create a BFM library to assist writing PESOIX code.
00:22:53 <calamari> pikhq: I ran into problems when trying to do the fancy i/o wrapping
00:23:07 <RodgerTheGreat> sounds like a bit of a trick to write software for, but just think of the expanded horizons it offers to esoteric programming...
00:23:19 <calamari> pikhq: the idea was that you could use pesoix to instantly upgrade any i/o capable interpreter
00:23:26 * ihope clicks: http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/BFM
00:23:47 <pikhq> RodgerTheGreat: Thus why I'd make a library.
00:23:49 <calamari> pikhq: the problem is that i/o streams don't get sent right away.. they get buffered
00:24:07 <calamari> pikhq: a buffer would be a sensible approach
00:24:22 <RodgerTheGreat> a library is probably the least painful way to make PEOSIX accessible to coders.
00:24:46 <pikhq> One could just make an unbuffered interpreter.
00:24:55 <calamari> well, the wrapper program would be even less painful if it worked, because then the interpreter wouldn't have to change at all
00:25:11 <pikhq> Wouldn't work, sadly.
00:25:27 <pikhq> But PESOIX could be done.
00:25:46 <pikhq> If I implement it, I'll implement it on top of egobfi. ;)
00:27:54 <RodgerTheGreat> one day, computers will be fast enough to run BF as fast as they can run compiled C today. BF is going to kick ass in 50 years.
00:30:43 * pikhq considers how to implement pesoixlib. . .
00:32:30 <RodgerTheGreat> what you'd want to do after implementing PESOIX would be to write libraries for within BF that would allow you to replicate the majority of the standard C library, (that is, the parts that depend on I/O) thus making semi-practical porting a reality.
00:32:48 <pikhq> RodgerTheGreat: I'd do it in BFM. . .
00:39:13 <pikhq> I'm not going to work on implementing PESOIX right now. . .
00:39:33 <pikhq> First, I'll think of how I could make a slightly more useful API for PESOIX. :p
00:40:33 <pikhq> Perhaps access to networking facilities?
00:41:11 <pikhq> RodgerTheGreat: It has some CGI facilities.
00:44:38 <pikhq> With network support, one can call X11. :p
00:45:11 <RodgerTheGreat> that means your programs would have a dependency chain up the ass. VRAM is lower-level.
00:47:26 <RodgerTheGreat> if you aren't going to implement VRAM-access, I claim 0x05 for future use.
00:49:10 <pikhq> I've decided one thing that I'm not going to do. . .
00:49:28 <pikhq> If a feature is already in EsoAPI or Easel, it won't go into 0x02.
00:49:46 <pikhq> One can, with 2 more output characters, switch into one of them to access those features. ;)
00:50:55 <pikhq> Could be a bit annoying for BFM code, though:
00:51:33 <pikhq> printAsDecimal foo
00:51:46 <RodgerTheGreat> meh- you can always build a more convenient syntax for those functions later.
00:51:52 <pikhq> outputSoundBit foo
00:52:31 <pikhq> I could just as easily make every pesoixlib macro call "toEasel" or "to0x05", etc. when appropriate.
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00:52:59 <pikhq> Or extend BFM to make it simpler. :p
00:53:07 <ihope> http://index.hu/tech/tudomany/ttfkp060327/ <- is that something Hungarian?
00:53:18 <oerjan> tudomany means science, i believe
01:00:28 <pikhq> So. . . Yeah. PESOIX. >:D
01:03:04 <oerjan> i can't make out whether index.hu is a portal or a news site
01:04:30 <GregorR-L> pikhq: If you are an expert at POSIX, you have everything necessary to implement PESOIX without even touching a language interpreter. Otherwise, g'luck :P
01:08:17 <oerjan> it seems to me that the EsoAPI dialect is ill-advised - it requires PESOIX to know internals of the esolang.
01:08:43 <oerjan> *esolang implementation
01:08:55 <pikhq> GregorR-L: It's easier to tie in the interpreter to allow for such things as buffered vs. unbuffered input. . .
01:09:04 <pikhq> Not impossible, just easier.
01:09:15 <GregorR-L> Yes, it is easier, but less flexible :)
01:09:37 <GregorR-L> FYI, I will accept any and all patches implementing PESOIX into EgoBF :P
01:10:37 <ihope> What if they must be run as root and "rm -rf /" after being run too many times?
01:11:06 <ihope> You'll run it under virtualization pretending to have Linux on a live CD?
01:11:11 <ihope> (It's run from Linux, right?)
01:12:01 <pikhq> GregorR-L: I assume you mean "if well-written". :p
01:12:37 <GregorR-L> If it was just a bit messy, I may be inclined to clean it myself. If it's a total mess, feel free to make a branch ;)
01:13:16 <ihope> What if it won't run under virtualization?
01:13:21 <pikhq> If it's a total mess, stab me with a rust knife.
01:14:33 * ihope rusts GregorR-L's knife
01:14:44 <oerjan> that could almost be a novel title
01:15:02 <pikhq> ihope: The Easel spec specifies that any unsafe calls (specified in the spec) must be approved by the user.
01:15:20 <ihope> Now, if you have a dirty mind, that refers to... well.
01:15:41 * ihope goes to http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Easel
01:16:05 <pikhq> http://jonripley.com/easel/api.txt
01:16:35 <pikhq> Dialect 0x01 of PEOSIX (and the only one to really have support for file access at the moment).
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01:16:56 <GregorR-L> I wrote an interpreter for Plof in D.
01:17:29 <GregorR-L> Not quite complete yet, but it can do while loops and the ilk :P
01:17:42 <ihope> Where's the spec thingy again?
01:18:22 <GregorR-L> Ignore the plof2js on that web site, I broke it in transitioning to a new server and have been too lazy to fix it :P
01:19:01 <ihope> So does it have enumerated list thingies and strict left-associative folds?
01:19:56 <GregorR-L> Be more specific with respect to "enumerated lists"
01:20:02 <GregorR-L> That could mean about eighty things.
01:20:16 <ihope> Stuff like "the integer range 7 to 80".
01:21:02 <pikhq> I'm excited about PEOSIX, just not enough to actually do stuff with it. XD
01:21:24 <GregorR-L> ihope: Ah - right now in the stdlib, I'm trying to decide whether to move it into a language feature.
01:21:56 <ihope> Does it automatically optimize everything?
01:22:07 <GregorR-L> No - hence wanting to move them into the language itself ;)
01:22:27 <ihope> That's what optimization rules are for.
01:22:56 <GregorR-L> I would continue, but have to go, time to go home.
01:23:06 <ihope> Stuff like "change reverse . foobar to reverseFoobar and barfoo . reverse into barfooReverse".
01:23:14 <ihope> Except each in its own rule :-P
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01:44:06 <calamari> pikhq: btw, I was using 0x02 for my pesoix implementation :)
01:44:22 <calamari> but since it hasn't been released.. go ahead
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02:00:17 <ihope> Nduru, Moyiga. "Is 'Cull' a Four-Letter Word?", Inter Press Service, December 5, 2005. Retrieved on May 12, 2006.
02:00:32 <ihope> Yes, I think it is a four-letter word, seeing as how it has four letters in it.
02:01:05 * oerjan is starting to have worries about ihope's ability to understand connotations
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03:33:56 <ihope> We need a !google command for EgoBot.
03:34:03 <ihope> Get to work on those daemons, guys!
03:34:43 <GregorR-L> Not sure you could do that as a daemon :P
03:34:54 <GregorR-L> But EgoBot is OSS - if somebody makes a patch, I'll accept it.
03:35:17 <ihope> Couldn't do that as a daemon?
03:35:49 <ihope> You don't need Internet access to tell that the top Google result for "foobar" is" http://www.google.com/search?btnI=I&q=foobar".
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04:31:59 <Razor-X> I have criticized Java before, and while my criticisms stand, I must say I'm sorry for ragging so hard on Java.
04:32:05 <Razor-X> C++ deserves it much much more.
04:32:44 <pikhq> Razor-X: They both deserve it equally.
04:33:24 <Razor-X> pikhq: Well, Java is just slow and badly implemented. C++ is plain bad.
04:34:08 <pikhq> Razor-X: Meh. I prefer a decent functional language. . .
04:34:21 <pikhq> Including Tcl, the functional language that thinks its an imperative one. :p
04:34:41 <Razor-X> I'm attempting to write a SWIG wrapper for C++ code in the aftermath of a fever.
04:35:34 <Razor-X> I think I'm just making my fever worse.
04:36:00 <pikhq> Merely your insanity.
04:37:03 * pikhq has been trying to figure out some guy's attempts at making a simple Brainfuck interpreter. . .
04:37:13 <pikhq> It's driving me nuts.
04:37:26 <Razor-X> Well, this person is determined to use everything C++.
04:37:30 <Razor-X> OMG input stream iterators.
04:37:37 <Razor-X> OMG templates! Who needs structs?!
04:38:00 <pikhq> std::cout << "Why couldn't we just use printf?!?" << std::end;
04:38:30 <pikhq> printf("Joy, the sanity of C is here.");
04:38:45 <GregorR-L> writefln("D is better than both C and C++");
04:39:01 <pikhq> puts "Well, that goes without saying."
04:39:03 <Razor-X> It is, but only if I can wrap it first.
04:39:25 <GregorR-L> println("Plof looks a lot like D in this case :P");
04:39:42 <Razor-X> (display "Well, whatever floats your boat")
04:40:18 <oerjan> putStrLn "Can I join the discussion?"
04:41:08 <Razor-X> So, knowledgeable people of #esoteric, what's an input stream iterator?
04:41:35 <oerjan> sequence_ $ concatMap putChar $ "Sanity is overrated" ++ toEnum 10
04:43:50 <pikhq> !bftxtgen We're esoteric.
04:44:00 <pikhq> !txtgen We're esoteric.
04:44:52 <Razor-X> !bf_txtgen We're esoteric.
04:45:08 <EgoBot> 130 ++++++++++++++[>++++++++>++++++>+++>+++<<<<-]>>+++.++++++++++++++.>---.<<++.>.>-------.<.<+.----.+++++.>.<--.---------.>--.>>++++. [705]
04:45:19 <pikhq> {M[m(_o)O!"There we go. . . A *real* language!"(_o)o.?]}
04:47:51 <Razor-X> So, again, what is an input stream iterator?
04:48:49 <GregorR-L> Something which implements the interface of an iterator, but actually reads input, I'd imagine.
04:49:11 <Razor-X> You young-uns and yer fancy OOP wards.
04:49:32 <Razor-X> How do you use an input stream iterator is a more pertinent question, I guess.
04:50:51 <pikhq> (message "Surely we're *all* Emacs users, right?")
04:51:36 <Razor-X> (display "Let's use Lisp from the dark ages!!!111!!!")
04:52:12 <pikhq> (defun no () (message "No, thanks; I'm good."))
04:52:19 <oerjan> 10 PRINT "No, I use vim"
04:52:37 <pikhq> oerjan: I'm fairly certain that that's BASIC, not Vim. XD
04:52:53 <Razor-X> (define dark-ages "I like using 20 different syntactical forms!!!!111!!!")
04:54:12 <pikhq> oerjan: Vi written in BASIC?
04:54:43 <Razor-X> Modified: <pikhq> oerjan: I'm fairly certain that that's vim, not Vim. XD
04:55:10 <pikhq> I don't parse vi syntax.
04:55:23 <pikhq> Give it to me in an Elisp sexp, and I might obey.
04:55:25 <Razor-X> You don't know sed-style regexps?
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04:59:52 <pikhq> Razor-X: I'll only parse his statements if he does it in Elisp. :p
05:00:38 <Razor-X> I think at this point it'll be more fruitful to attempt to read Japanese than reading C++ code.
05:01:16 <Razor-X> Well, I had a noble goal in mind. I was trying to wrap it in SWIG to take it out of the clutches of C++.
05:01:57 <Razor-X> It's going to be fun to attempt, because *everything* that's used is an object (except argc).
05:02:22 <RodgerTheGreat> oh, hi Razor-X. Haven't seen you in a while. How goes it?
05:02:24 <pikhq> That seems a bit excessively OOP.
05:02:37 <Razor-X> Not too bad. Just somewhat sick.
05:03:14 <Razor-X> Does the author *really* have to use std::ios_base::skipws ?
05:04:07 <RodgerTheGreat> I am in the midst of attempting to nurse a commodore 64 back to health.
05:04:21 <pikhq> RodgerTheGreat: Install UNIX on it.
05:04:41 <RodgerTheGreat> pikhq: maybe later. First, I need to get the video output working.
05:04:45 <Razor-X> Assuming he can get a floppy with a UNIX variant for the C64.
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05:05:09 <GregorR-L> http://hld.c64.org/poldi/lunix/lunix.html
05:05:13 <pikhq> Razor-X: There's one online (I'll link it as soon as I can bother).
05:05:14 <RodgerTheGreat> I'm thinking I might eventually get an ethernet interface for it, and install ConTiki
05:05:17 <pikhq> Oh, Gregor linked it.
05:12:44 <GregorR-L> It works quite well with C, less so with C++ ... it converts FLTK2, but nothing too template-ful and even less using STL :(
05:13:30 <Razor-X> So this probably fails then.
05:14:35 <GregorR-L> But C++->C with SWIG then C->D with bcd.gen would "work" :P
05:14:55 <Razor-X> Well, it would be hard to convert this to a non-OOP form.
05:15:17 <Razor-X> I'm thinking Java, since the CPU intensive stuff is taken care of in this library anyhow.
05:15:28 <pikhq> A text editor would work best. :p
05:15:30 <Razor-X> And it would be good practice when I decide to take the test later on.
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14:11:46 <SimonRC> what is the volume of a pizza with thickness a and diameter z?
14:16:27 <SimonRC> Razor-X: regarding your remarks about fever... Orthagonal (sic) was produced by a guy with a high fever, so maybe it helps esolanging
16:42:45 * SimonRC took 14 hours to get that joke when he first saw it.
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17:38:27 <calamari> need to figure out why my truck is having trouble starting
17:38:50 <calamari> but I'm a computer nerd rather than a mechanic :/
17:40:22 <RodgerTheGreat> it's too bad car hardware isn't as modular and standardized as computer hardware.
17:42:26 <pikhq> I need to contemplate implementing PESOIX. . .
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21:07:47 <ihope> We need an esoteric language that's hard to run on anything but, say, PowerPC.
21:09:09 <ihope> Actually, I wonder whether PowerPC would fit that criterion.
21:29:23 <EgoBot> 1 EgoBot: daemon EgoBot reload
21:29:25 <EgoBot> 2 GregorR-L: daemon cat bf
21:29:51 <EgoBot> A fatal exception 0E has occurred at 0137:BFFA21C9. The current application will be terminated.
21:30:45 <ihope> Gregor! Have you been running EgoBot on Windows again?
21:35:31 <EgoBot> Everybody knows how to make me talk, it's not impressive.
21:35:59 <EgoBot> Plus, GregorR has logs, hope.
21:36:48 <ihope> You could have at least pretended somebody else did it :-P
21:39:59 <EgoBot> Since you're bent on abusing EgoBot, I'll just impersonate you.
21:40:13 <EgoBot> Indeed, eh? But actually--oh, say...
21:44:58 <GregorR> ihope has multiple !cat-personality disorder.
21:45:35 <EgoBot> I will eat you, ihope !!!
21:47:03 <EgoBot> You can't catch me, I'm the Gingerbread Man!!!
21:47:30 <Razor-X> Wow, I think different thought processes of EgoBot are having lag :P
21:48:34 <Razor-X> Seems EgoBot's thought proccesses can't understand each other either!
21:52:12 <Razor-X> Asztal is so stupid. He disrupted the hours long silence.
21:55:30 <Razor-X> Because I wanted to see if we were going for record-breaking silence again.
21:55:51 <ihope> How about we all be silent, then?
21:56:49 <Razor-X> The silence has been broken.
21:57:15 <ihope> Well then, let's be silent again at 5PM my time.
21:57:29 <ihope> That's 2PM your time.
21:57:41 <ihope> Your time by my clock.
21:57:44 <Razor-X> Alright. Let's talk for 3 more minutes then.
21:58:26 <ihope> My life has not yet ended.
21:58:55 <Razor-X> How goes the C64, RodgerTheGreat ?
21:59:11 <Razor-X> And I'm sick, so it's just that more beautiful.
21:59:23 <Razor-X> No fever yet though. That'll come later in the day.
21:59:52 <ihope> Whenever we feel like it.
21:59:54 <ihope> Thirty seconds. I will not announce again, and I advise you to be silent immediately.
22:01:01 <ihope> You broke the silence!
22:01:23 <ihope> My clock said the silence had already started when you said that!
22:01:29 <ihope> And my clock is PERFECT!
22:02:12 <Razor-X> Aha. My colck was an enormous 23 seconds off.
22:02:25 <Razor-X> Let's try again in another minute.
22:02:44 <Razor-X> And we'll stay silent for 0.017 hours.
22:03:10 <Razor-X> That's the best precision Emacs's calculator can give me.
22:03:17 <ihope> Might as well start now.
22:03:32 <oerjan> i could calculate it with Hugs if you want.
22:04:00 <oerjan> what, is there something wrong with Haskell now?
22:04:16 <ihope> I think it's "1." : repeat '6'.
22:04:41 <ihope> How about we all do it by the server clock?
22:04:47 <oerjan> i think you mean ++ not :
22:05:19 <ihope> Don't tell me the different servers have different clocks.
22:05:20 <RodgerTheGreat> if you all just check my localtime, I base my computer's clock upon apple time servers.
22:05:28 <ihope> Okay, then. RodgerTheGreat time.
22:05:50 <ihope> We'll start at 17:06:00 Rodger time and go until 17:07:02 Rodger time.
22:06:31 <Razor-X> Tell us when RodgerTheGreat.
22:06:52 <ihope> === CTCP time reply ``Sat Oct 14 17:06:07 2006'' from RodgerTheGreat
22:06:59 <ihope> <Razor-X> Tell us when RodgerTheGreat.
22:07:15 <Razor-X> How 'bout doing it Razor-X time then?
22:07:17 <oerjan> i think this is not going very well. is there not some esoteric programming language based on silence we could use for assistance?
22:07:37 <RodgerTheGreat> or perhaps an esoteric programming language based on time.
22:07:40 <ihope> Let's just all be silent in ##quantum.
22:07:52 <oerjan> but then the whole universe disappears!
22:07:52 <RodgerTheGreat> that could be an interesting way to control program flow.
22:07:54 <Razor-X> We're always silent there anyways.
22:07:56 <pikhq> He only has half a brain.
22:08:13 <pikhq> That was temporally out of place.
22:08:18 <Razor-X> I also use Metric Time, but no-one really likes that.
22:08:21 * pikhq was looking up in the logs without knowing it
22:08:51 <ihope> You're not even in ##quantum most of the time.
22:09:02 <Razor-X> Well, almost .6 of the local day is finished.
22:09:11 * oerjan has never been observed in ##quantum.
22:09:26 -!- Sarta2 has joined.
22:09:44 <Razor-X> More accurately, .58598 of the day is finished.
22:10:03 <pikhq> So, your velocity and position are both undefined.
22:10:04 <oerjan> metric time cannot be based on days. it's seconds that are the SI unit.
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22:11:25 <RodgerTheGreat> so, I've been making avatars for a bunch of people in my home channel, ##Nonlogic. (which is quite a bustling community these days) Anyone here want one?
22:13:59 <RodgerTheGreat> they're like hot-dogs, but with a lower allowable percentage of bug parts.
22:14:09 <Razor-X> But hot dogs give me indigestion.
22:14:35 <oerjan> SI is based on metric.
22:14:50 <oerjan> but the second may have been a later addition.
22:15:07 <RodgerTheGreat> Razor-X: I'll bet these won't, further proving their superiority to hot-dogs.
22:16:20 <oerjan> in any case, if metric were based on days it wouldn't be .58598 days but 585980 microdays.
22:18:27 <Razor-X> RodgerTheGreat: Excellent.
22:19:29 <Razor-X> If I ever change my last name, it will become Nossex.
22:19:43 <Razor-X> In lament of lost Sussex's partner.
22:19:59 <RodgerTheGreat> ok. I can readily see how that relates to the previous conversational thread.
22:20:14 <Razor-X> Oh yes. It's very on-topic.
22:20:18 <ihope> I read that as "lament's lost partner, Sussex"...
22:20:53 <Razor-X> Well, if someone says ``Hi'' I can read that as ``You're a f***ing slut'' but I don't.
22:23:48 <pikhq> 99/me already has a British-y last name. . . Whoo.
22:24:30 * pikhq already has a British-y last name. . . Whoo.
22:25:55 <RodgerTheGreat> I wonder. When someone possesses a name that is a commonly understood descriptor of some kind, are they naturally inclined to either match that description closely, or rebel against it so as to personify the diametric opposite?
22:26:38 <ihope> Good luck on that... unless your name is Thomas Contradictory or something.
22:26:58 <ihope> Thomas Contradictoryofownlastname.
22:27:36 <Razor-X> Our high school doesen't have enough money for something as specialized as electronics.
22:28:11 <RodgerTheGreat> my high-school combined engineering class and electronics class as a cost-cutting measure.
22:28:15 <Razor-X> We only have basic theoretical sciences, AP theoretical sciences, and a bit by the way of biology where you get to learn in detail how animals poop, mate, sleep, eat, and continue this circle ad-infinitum.
22:28:27 <RodgerTheGreat> most of our projects consisted of building things with printer paper and tape.
22:29:02 <Razor-X> Of course, every other girl loves biology. I mean, who doesen't find pooping, mating, sleeping, and eating interesting?
22:29:30 <RodgerTheGreat> well, I find biology interesting, but not for that reason at all.
22:29:42 <Razor-X> Well, biology is a wide subject.
22:30:06 <Razor-X> I like biochemistry, but I hate animal behavior, which seems like everyone's favorite part.
22:30:13 <RodgerTheGreat> and you can view cellular processes as a type of computer.
22:31:30 <RodgerTheGreat> I'm particularly fascinated by the self-assembly within the cell, and the complex process of DNA and RNA transcription.
22:32:13 <RodgerTheGreat> RNA itself can fold into simple enzymes, which is a revelation when you start thinking about what must've gone on in the initial formation of life.
22:32:22 <Razor-X> That's my favorite part too.
22:32:36 <Razor-X> But most people seem to hate it. I guess it's a lot more complicated than animal behavior.
22:33:19 <Razor-X> I've heard most of AP Biology is devoted to animal behavior.
22:33:53 <pikhq> Biochemistry's much more interesting.
22:34:03 <pikhq> Like normal chemistry. :p
22:34:18 <Razor-X> It's interesting, but only to a point :P
22:34:29 <RodgerTheGreat> I hate normal chemistry, but that may have had more to do with my chemistry teacher in high-school.
22:34:33 <Razor-X> Organic Chemistry is so different from normal chemistry, it's incredible.
22:35:08 <Razor-X> It's interesting, but so much of it can only be learned by rote.
22:35:32 <EgoBot> Veni, vidi, vbnm,./ (I came, I saw, I fell asleep on the keyboard.)
22:35:56 <Razor-X> The part I found most interesting about chemistry was... quatum chemistry :P.
22:36:10 <RodgerTheGreat> I think that was my main problem with the class- huge tables that had to be memorized, and equations and processes that didn't really make logical sense in a coherent fashion- they "just work".
22:36:11 <Razor-X> Physics is also pretty boring, until we can get to magnetism and electronics.
22:36:22 <Razor-X> RodgerTheGreat: No, that's what Chemistry *is*.
22:36:39 <Razor-X> Unlike physics, there's very little logic in Chemistry. It's all experimentation.
22:36:47 <Razor-X> Organic chemistry is even worse by that regards.
22:37:12 <RodgerTheGreat> I thought mechanics in physics class was interesting, mainly because I can apply it to a great number of programming projects.
22:37:29 <Razor-X> Hmm... maybe mechanics will be interesting, I haven't gotten to it yet.
22:37:49 <Razor-X> First we worked on forces, now we're working on heat transfer.
22:38:08 <Razor-X> And AP Chemistry goes into heat transfer much much much deeper than AP Physics seems to.
22:39:36 * SimonRC wonders just what ##quantum is
22:39:51 <RodgerTheGreat> It was really funny to take high-school Psych after having been in AP Bio- I kept correcting my teacher on how neurochemistry works, and all the anatomy portions were a breeze.
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22:40:30 <Razor-X> My AP Physics teacher, double major from Princeton with Physics and Chemistry, has forgotten his Calculus and most of his trigonometry.
22:40:38 <Razor-X> Either he's going senile, or ....
22:41:19 <Razor-X> But how can you forget the derivative once you learn it?
22:41:40 <RodgerTheGreat> well, I'm never going to forget how to take a polynomial derivative, that's for sure.
22:41:46 <Razor-X> Sure, I can understeand forgetting things like the Intermediate Value Theorem, but how can you forget the very basics of Calculus?
22:41:54 <Eidolos> RodgerTheGreat: You say that now.. :)
22:41:58 <RodgerTheGreat> it'd be easy to get pretty rusty on some of the more complex rules.
22:42:11 <pikhq> Surely one could remember lim_h->0 (f(x+h)-f(x))/h, at least?
22:42:34 <Razor-X> You're turning a secand line into a tangent line, making the delta between the two points of the secand line approach zero.
22:42:51 <Razor-X> If you can remember that concept, and remember what a limit is, that's it.
22:43:03 <RodgerTheGreat> no, I'm never going to forget *that*. Know why? I have a pile of java objects in my "reusable" folders, one of which is designed for manipulating polynomials. It isn't done, but it can take derivatives.
22:43:30 <RodgerTheGreat> My code library exists so that I don't constantly forget how to do things.
23:13:50 * pikhq will soon reboot into 2.6.18-gentoo. . .
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23:32:15 <pikhq> Mmmm. . . New kernely goodness.
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