00:00:01 <Sgeo> My contribs are sort-of inspired by a language I'm working on
00:00:06 <Sgeo> (Well, not SWAP)
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00:01:49 <pikhq> I shall call it. . Esoterica!
00:03:58 <Sgeo> QUINE //#<>+SWAP([{}])
00:04:42 <Sgeo> Does QUINE just cause the statement given to be WHINEd, or future statements too?
00:10:15 <Sgeo> How do bit sinks interact with vars-are-stacks?
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01:48:29 <twobitsprite> hey... I was just reading some guys rant about Table Oriented Programming, and I was wondering if anyone knows of such a language? (he didn't mention anything, I guess he was just dreaming out loud, or something)
01:48:56 <Razor-X> Let's look at a Table of Opcodes? ;D
01:50:45 <Sgeo> Table oriented programming?
01:50:58 <Sgeo> If this has to do with MKBL-LN,,
01:51:38 <Razor-X> Uggh. Why does Sourceforge use Flash ads?
01:53:59 <Razor-X> Table Oriented seems to cater to a limited programming sector, but I can see it being useful.
01:54:21 <Razor-X> DB programming (or anything making heavy use of a large DB) is something I would never want to do -- ever. Personally.
01:59:20 <Razor-X> Nah. This channel rarely is on topic.
02:00:54 <twobitsprite> man.... I hate it when I get the urge to program, open up vi, and stare at it for hours...
02:01:16 <twobitsprite> not only do I not know what I want to program, I don't even know what language I want to write it in...
02:01:20 <pikhq> That's because you use Vi.
02:04:54 <pikhq> That's a downgrade.
02:06:00 <twobitsprite> ohh... I thought it was Escape Meta Alt Control Shift...
02:08:41 <pikhq> Escape isn't used in Emacs (unless you don't have a Meta key), Meta is used, Alt is bound to Meta by default, Control is used, and what editor doesn't use Shift?
02:08:53 <pikhq> We'd get: MCS or ACS, not EMACS. ;)
02:09:53 <pikhq> By the same token, Vi should be called "Esc :qwertyuiopasdfghjklzxcvbn Esc".
02:10:17 <twobitsprite> I still don't see (perhaps for my own shotcomings, having only two hands and all) how anyone can think C-n and C-p are more efficient than the arrow keys -- which of course are much less efficient than hjkl
02:10:55 <pikhq> C-n and C-p don't require you to move your hands from the main row of the keyboard.
02:11:29 <twobitsprite> right, well, holding control for minutes at a time hurts my pinky... it's still a stretch
02:11:31 <pikhq> And using hjkl requires you to hit Esc before you can edit.
02:11:50 <pikhq> Which requires moving your hand off the keyboard again.
02:11:59 <twobitsprite> esc doesn't require you to move you hand from the home row either... its about as far as control
02:12:19 <pikhq> Ctrl is to the left of a.
02:12:54 <twobitsprite> pikhq: I never bought into the idea that it's not emacs fault, but rather my keyboard manufacturer's fault
02:13:11 <pikhq> I'm also a GNU Screen and Ratpoison user. . .
02:13:23 <pikhq> I assure you; having the Ctrl key there is the nicest way to have things.
02:13:30 <twobitsprite> and I know I can remap the capslock key, but I can also remap it to esc
02:14:09 <pikhq> And if you *really* want to do the Vi thing, Emacs contains a Vi implementation.
02:14:22 <twobitsprite> whenever I'm in emacs I can never stop thinking "gee, I wish I could _toggle_ the ctrl key", and then remember that vi does that
02:14:34 <twobitsprite> pikhq: then why should I use emacs to emulate vi?
02:15:17 <twobitsprite> trust me, I'm not in a holy war... I gave emacs a thorough try... I used it exclusively for 1 month trying to get used to it, and it just didn't work out
02:16:18 <twobitsprite> and now that vim7 can match parens like emacs does, it lost the whole reason I even attempted to try emacs
02:19:30 <Razor-X> twobitsprite: You can use the arrow keys in Emacs.
02:21:11 <twobitsprite> Razor-X: I know you can... that isn't the point... but I agree... enough :P
02:21:56 <twobitsprite> seriously though... I'm actually curious... what's the big push to use emacs?
02:23:02 <Razor-X> We all use our own editors.
02:23:08 <Sgeo> What's wrong with gedit or kate or something?
02:23:12 <Razor-X> Heck, you can use Notepad, but I mean, whatever.
02:23:36 <pikhq> twobitsprite: You use free software, so you're not sinning against Emacs. ;)
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02:23:52 <pikhq> (at least, you're not sinning with your Vim usage)
02:24:06 * Sgeo uses Opera web browser
02:24:11 <twobitsprite> pikhq: right... but it seemed to me like you were saying that I _should_ use emacs
02:24:33 <pikhq> twobitsprite: I just think Emacs is a much better editor.
02:24:37 <twobitsprite> Sgeo: do you really? is it that much better, I've never used it...
02:25:01 <pikhq> On the scale of "I like it, damn it". :p
02:25:05 <Sgeo> Opera sometimes has issues resolving DNS
02:25:10 <Sgeo> But that might just be me
02:25:13 <pikhq> (this is a *very* subjective test)
02:25:16 <Razor-X> Opera > Firefox + 10000000000
02:25:17 <Sgeo> But bookmark handling is great
02:25:20 <twobitsprite> pikhq: ok.. I was just honestly curious if there were some objective reasons to use emacs over others
02:25:29 <Sgeo> I like integrated email
02:25:46 <Sgeo> I used to like feeds
02:26:07 <Sgeo> Fast Forward is nifty
02:26:17 <pikhq> (< Opera (- Firefox '(All that is good in the world)))
02:26:54 <pikhq> Best thing about Firefox: With Conkeror, it's got 100% Emacs bindings. :)
02:27:33 <pikhq> And with Conkeror and an entry in your config file, it has Vi bindings instead.
02:29:32 <Sgeo> There is a button next to the forward button
02:29:50 <Sgeo> If Opera sees a link that seems to go to a "next" page, Fast Forward takes you there
02:29:56 <Sgeo> Shift-X is also fast forward
02:30:27 <twobitsprite> I wonder if there is a firefox plugin for that :P
02:30:35 <Sgeo> It apparently can bring you across the images on a page
02:30:39 <pikhq> I just hit the number for the "next" link.
02:30:51 <pikhq> (numbered links: :))
02:30:54 <Sgeo> it remembers from the page that the image is on where the next image is
02:31:05 <Sgeo> pikhq, Opera doesn't require that for Fast Forward
02:31:17 <pikhq> Yeah, yeah, yeah. . .
02:31:33 <pikhq> But, as Opera isn't free software, I must reject it.
02:32:41 <pikhq> Willfully enslaved.
02:33:01 <twobitsprite> pikhq: I'm surprised you use firefox then... it has quite a bit of copyright embumberance
02:33:08 <Razor-X> Firefox eats memory shamelessly.
02:33:33 <twobitsprite> Razor-X: I haven't noticed that moreso than other browsers
02:33:34 <Razor-X> My Firefox instance of 5 tabs now uses almost as much RAM as my Opera instance of 35 tabs.
02:33:47 <Sgeo> Razor-X, I've also noticed leakage
02:33:54 <Sgeo> Maybe flash plugin thing?
02:34:07 <Sgeo> I vaguely remember hearing rumors about it
02:35:06 <pikhq> twobitsprite: Care to tell me of the copyright encumberance?
02:35:19 <pikhq> (there's some *trademark* encumberance, but not copyright encumberance)
02:35:37 <pikhq> Razor-X: Try Firefox 2.0. ;)
02:36:04 <pikhq> Came out a few hours ago.
02:36:09 <twobitsprite> Razor-X: yeah, just came out a couple days ago
02:36:12 <Razor-X> Please tell me they're getting back to their roots.
02:36:13 * Sgeo is going to upgrade to Ubuntu 6.10 this weekend
02:36:22 <pikhq> Much lower memory usage.
02:36:37 <pikhq> twobitsprite: Some idiot linked to the FTP server as they were uploading binaries.
02:36:39 <Sgeo> Presumably FF2 will be there
02:36:39 <Razor-X> Around 0.7, they completely changed focus away from a small and fast browser to Replacing Mozilla.
02:36:57 * Sgeo used firefox since 0.9 iirc
02:37:05 * Sgeo only recently switched to Opera
02:37:06 * pikhq started on Phoenix
02:37:06 <Razor-X> I was a faithful Phoenix user from 0.2.
02:37:23 * pikhq still has a mild fondness for Ye Ol' Suite
02:37:23 <Razor-X> The predecessor to Firefox's predecessor, Firebird.
02:37:53 <Razor-X> 0.9 was the version number I decided Firefox is not working out.
02:38:01 <Razor-X> Been using Opera since around that time.
02:44:26 * Sgeo used to use Konqueror
02:48:59 <pikhq> One of the major things done in FF2 is a reduction in memory footprint, BTW.
02:49:05 <Razor-X> What version of GTK does FF2 compile against?
02:50:00 <pikhq> If you've got GNOME running, you've got the right libraries. :p
02:50:12 <Razor-X> What version of GTK2.0 I mean.
02:51:01 <pikhq> Does "Damned if I know" count as an answer?
02:51:37 <pikhq> Seems my *current* GTK version is GTK 2.8.20-r1 (soon to be updated to 2.20.6).
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02:52:05 <pikhq> One issue I've got; the version in Portage is 2RC3, not 2.0. . .
02:52:22 <pikhq> Oh well; the difference is in the name alone. ;)
02:54:06 <twobitsprite> hmm... I just found a webpage with a flash applet which has higher system requirements that I cannot meat
02:54:37 <twobitsprite> it's sad when a _webpage_ will jitter and sputter on my computer
02:54:50 <Razor-X> GTK 2.4 isn't that old. Gah.
02:54:51 <pikhq> Now I've just got to wait on the heinous compile time (Gentoo, you know).
02:55:48 <pikhq> Seems that they list GTK 2.0 or better as a requirment.
02:55:59 <pikhq> 2.4 counts as 2.0 or better. ;)
02:56:25 <pikhq> They. . . Still support 2.2.14.
02:57:02 <dbc> 2.4 counts as 2.0 or later :)
03:03:25 <CakeProphet> oh... and how do you make .tars in windows? I can't seem to do so.
03:03:30 <pikhq> Linux ain't all that useful without the rest of the OS.
03:03:56 <CakeProphet> Linux isn't useful without its liscence distribution?
03:04:14 <pikhq> No, it's not useful without the rest of the operating system.
03:04:58 <CakeProphet> you have been given a challenge... show me how to format tarballs in Windows.
03:05:42 <pikhq> A free software compression utility, with support for tarballs, among other formats.
03:08:10 <CakeProphet> pikhq, Hmm... would I want 32.bit or X64 installation?
03:08:34 <pikhq> CakeProphet: Depends; do you have a 32 bit or 64 bit Windows installation?
03:15:25 <CakeProphet> pikhq, Wow.... tarballs are insanely small...
03:15:39 <pikhq> CakeProphet: When compressed, yes.
03:15:51 <pikhq> Bzip2 is a really nice algorithm. . .
03:16:00 <pikhq> 7zip's implementation of Gzip is also rather nice.
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07:48:20 <Razor-X> Name a useful, popular, developer friendly, and cheap embedded platform.
07:55:37 <GregorR-L> Make sure to get one that SDCC supports.
07:56:32 <GregorR-L> Well, PIC isn't strictly a "platorm" ... it's just a chip :P
07:56:39 <GregorR-L> You kinda have to roll-your-own platform ;)
07:57:09 <GregorR-L> And then, Gregor disappeared, leaving the conversation in a useless state.
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10:18:15 <Razor-X> How 'bout your suggestions, ihope ?
10:37:20 <Razor-X> <Razor-X> Name a useful, popular, developer friendly, and cheap embedded platform.
11:11:22 <Asztal> if it's anything like normal computing, you can only have 3 out of 4.
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13:19:38 <pikhq> Razor-X: Busybox/Linux. ;)
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13:38:00 <RodgerTheGreat> http://todbot.com/blog/2006/09/25/arduino-the-basic-stamp-killer/
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16:52:32 <SimonRC> "int main (char *argv[]) {"
16:54:01 <oerjan> i see there was some question about QUINE.
16:54:40 <oerjan> i certainly intended it to refer to future statements; in fact i did not intend QUINE <statement> by itself to run <statement> at all.
16:55:11 <oerjan> on the other hand, i was obviously influenced by just having invented UNDO etc.
17:45:40 * pikhq wonders how he could fix a bug in basm. . .
17:46:17 <SimonRC> you edit the source code for basm, then re-compile if necessary.
17:48:34 <oerjan> recompilations are unnecessary
17:49:07 <pikhq> As it stands right now, it is broken when you have >>> runs longer than 255.
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17:53:47 <oerjan> i would like you to include the macros i am working on now, it should make the whole thing easier to read
17:54:01 <oerjan> and then i can look at it afterwards
17:54:14 <pikhq> Soon as I see what macros you're working on, I'd be glad to.
17:54:26 <pikhq> Anything to make bfm saner is a good thing, IMO. ;)
17:56:44 <pikhq> It now handles large pointer movements correctly.
17:56:55 <pikhq> Unfortunately, it's grown a bit because of that.
17:57:45 <pikhq> Without the initial GPL header, it's 5419 characters. . .
17:57:58 <pikhq> *Still* the smallest Brainfuck compiler out there that I know of. ;)
17:58:58 * SimonRC watches someone type chinese.
17:59:14 <SimonRC> Damn that system is unsuitable for typing.
17:59:50 <SimonRC> It'd cause the inventor to turn in his grave.
18:00:55 <SimonRC> AFAICT, they type a latinish transliteration, which causes a box of chinese characters to popup, and they select the correct one using number keys.
18:10:01 <oerjan> i don't know if that is so unsuitable, provided you can press the number immediately if you know it.
18:11:59 <oerjan> it may be the best you can do given the chinese character system
18:13:57 <oerjan> on the other hand i have heard the dictionaries are organized by numbers of strokes, they probably have a typing system based on that too
18:15:21 <oerjan> he, that means chinese would have to be typed in a different manner dependent on whether you know the pronunciation or the symbol :)
18:54:01 <dbc> Smallest brainfuck compiler written in brainfuck?
18:55:04 <pikhq> Argh. Damn thing is *still* broken.
18:55:35 <pikhq> Unless you think "<<<<" has 5 characters in it, that is.
19:01:21 <dbc> dbf2c.b is 874 bytes long, but doesn't do optimization or linefeed translation...
19:01:54 <pikhq> Damn, that's a tiny compiler.
19:02:12 <pikhq> Mine is 5362 bytes long, but it does optimization and EOF=0.
19:02:36 <pikhq> And could *easily* be modified to handle linefeed translation.
19:03:00 <dbc> it's been a long time since I changed it, so the code-reading part is old and clunky. I could probably save a little bit by grafting on the code-reading part from dbfi.b but I am still hoping to find something better and then use it for both programs.
19:04:34 <dbc> If I ever find time I'll see how I can do on an optimizing one.
19:05:30 <dbc> I have this giant list of postponed brainfuck-related projects :)
19:06:47 <oerjan> uh uh, we've got competition ;)
19:06:54 * dbc is afk, going to give blood
19:07:54 * SimonRC hopes esolanging isn't transmissible this way.
19:09:43 <pikhq> The code-reading part on mine is just a wee bit inelegant.
19:12:31 <pikhq> dbc: That's some nice work.
19:23:43 <oerjan> pikhq: there is now a new version of http://home.nvg.org/~oerjan/stdcons.bfm, more than twice the size, including addcons* and subcons* macros
19:23:53 <oerjan> and a public domain notice
19:25:53 <oerjan> Using those macros should clean up basm.bfm a bit
19:27:11 <oerjan> you might want to keep both to have a shorter version with just cons* macros.
19:27:30 <oerjan> in that case, please include the public domain notice in the smaller one
19:34:46 <pikhq> It's all in stdcons.bfm, BTW.
19:35:43 <oerjan> something that starts to worry me about the source command: am i right that it doesn't check whether a file has been sourced before?
19:36:37 <oerjan> for example, the file move.bfm is going to be sourced several times in an ordinary program
19:36:37 <pikhq> ba.b is now at 528. . .
19:36:57 <pikhq> It doesn't check that; it just assumes that you're going to use it sanely.
19:37:13 <oerjan> it would of course be a bigger problem if this happened with stdcons.
19:37:16 <pikhq> (macros being sourced again just redefine the macro)
19:37:56 <oerjan> well, just inefficient i guess
19:38:15 <oerjan> because it is a much larger file and so much more wasted work
19:38:36 <pikhq> I just assume Tcl handles this sanely. ;)
19:39:38 <oerjan> i don't think it makes any attempt to fix the problem in general.
19:40:43 <pikhq> Tcl, I *think*, handles multiple sources sanely (source is used in Tcl packages). . .
19:41:10 * pikhq leaves soon; new BFM tarball and Basm tarball will be up soon after I return home
19:42:00 <oerjan> it could just be it uses the same hack as C with #ifndef ALREADY_LOADED
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19:50:09 <oerjan> calamari: you now are acknowledged in stdcons.bfm
19:51:27 <oerjan> the part of the stdlib of pikhq's BFM that contains macros for constant values
19:53:12 <oerjan> they were generated from Brainfuck_constants, and i believe most of the brainfuck originals were your work
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19:57:03 <oerjan> hah, Tcl load lists as a bug that it can load a file multiple times
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22:22:28 <pikhq> LostKng now works in a very. . . Odd manner in basm.
22:22:58 <pikhq> [Your score has just gone up by 1 point]
22:23:06 <pikhq> That should *not* be output when you hit "q"!
22:23:39 * pikhq curses loudly at the damned thing
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22:39:31 <pikhq> I can't even figure out what the bug is in basm now.
22:40:39 <pikhq> Scratch that; I've got a clue, and no idea how it occurs.
22:45:38 <SimonRC> what exactly does basm do?
22:45:47 <SimonRC> I keep confusing it with BFM
22:49:09 <Sgeo> Why are we not working on the factory language?
22:50:33 <pikhq> It compiles Brainfuck to C, and is written in BFM.
22:51:36 * pikhq realises a way to refactor BASM significantly. . .
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22:53:45 * pikhq doesn't see it any more :/
22:54:07 <Sgeo_> Why TF did Ubuntu just freeze???
22:55:48 <SimonRC> Sgeo_: microsoft radiation
22:56:11 <Sgeo_> What did I miss since I asked "Why are we not working on the factory language"
22:57:38 * pikhq realises a way to make BFM nicer, though
23:01:14 <jix> Sgeo_: sry i was very busy today and yesterday
23:01:23 <jix> had no time to work on it
23:01:42 <jix> and i'm quite shocked on how difficuilt it will be to implement that....
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23:06:29 <pikhq> You mean that wasn't a design goal?
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23:19:24 <jix> pikhq: well i expected a difficuilt to implement langauge
23:19:33 <jix> but this is ten times worse than my expections :|
23:22:39 <Sgeo> jix, is this my fault in any way?
23:23:09 <jix> it's all submissions combined
23:23:27 <Sgeo> No innocent submissions?
23:23:40 <Sgeo> I'd think that pikhq's stuff is innocent >.<
23:24:14 <jix> well combined with my threading they arn't easy to implement
23:25:13 <Sgeo> Presumably we will all help with the implementation
23:25:22 <Sgeo> Though I'm not helping unless it's Python
23:25:45 <jix> and i don't know python
23:26:19 <Sgeo> Dangit! I really wanted to help..
23:26:39 <jix> but we need a spec first anyway...
23:27:09 <Sgeo> We should write the spec on Wiki