< 1161822088 0 :GregorR-L!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Leaving" < 1161824054 0 :Razor-X!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :RodgerTheGreat: Arduino? < 1161824133 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://todbot.com/blog/2006/09/25/arduino-the-basic-stamp-killer/ < 1161824135 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :indeed < 1161824147 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm considering buying one, actually. < 1161824186 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mainly because I could program it without a serial port. I have a 386 laptop sitting around for the express purpose of coding for my BASIC stamp. < 1161824295 0 :Razor-X!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmmm. I'm checking it out. < 1161824308 0 :Razor-X!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, and does anyone have information on the structure of the Palm's ROM? < 1161824317 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the next time I feel a need for a microcontroller, I'm getting one < 1161824355 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, I could help you get a ROM-dump, and I could point you in the direction of an onboard disassembler, if I can find it again. < 1161824364 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :might I ask why? < 1161824404 0 :Razor-X!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm thinking (in conjunction with SLUMTP) of making a new embedded OS for Palm. < 1161824414 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ooh. cool. < 1161824418 0 :Razor-X!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :POSIX-y, but *NOT* POSIX compatible for the simple reason that this is a Palm. < 1161824443 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was thinking a while ago that porting Contiki would be pretty sweet. < 1161824461 0 :Razor-X!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, I just want very basic IO going, and I have an idea. < 1161824472 0 :kipple_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1161824474 0 :Razor-X!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Without delving into too much ASM or C. But it involves Forth ;D < 1161824516 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :have you played with Quartus Forth at all? < 1161824525 0 :Razor-X!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not quite yet, but I've looked into it. < 1161824540 0 :Razor-X!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The issue is, I want a true low-level Forth, sitting straight atop the hardware on its own kernel. < 1161824560 0 :Razor-X!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Enter project pForth. < 1161824565 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1161824590 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :could be quite interesting. < 1161824609 0 :Razor-X!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It contains its own libc, if neccessary. < 1161824614 0 :Razor-X!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Which is neccessary here.) < 1161824635 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what model of palm are you designing this for? < 1161824669 0 :Razor-X!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Preferrably as m68k compatible as possible, but that probably isn't perfectly fesible. It'll be a Palm Handspring Visor. < 1161824700 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, sweet! I have a visor as well- I can help you beta if you need it. < 1161824719 0 :Razor-X!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm gonna attempt to disassemble the ROM. < 1161824726 0 :Razor-X!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Shouldn't the POSE people know about this? < 1161824734 0 :Razor-X!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Uggh. Why have they written no documentation? < 1161825200 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A good coder writes code which needs no documentation. < 1161825209 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A bad coder refuses to document his code. < 1161825222 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :;) < 1161825287 0 :Razor-X!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :POSE is not something I want to read through :P < 1161825299 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Thus, it's written by a bad coder. < 1161825319 0 :Razor-X!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Even if it was coded well. < 1161825340 0 :Razor-X!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Plus, POSE is stupid. I guess we'll have to use XCopilot. < 1161825341 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, a good coder writes code which needs no documentation, but that doesn't mean he refuses to do so. < 1161825355 0 :Razor-X!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Heh. < 1161825366 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :By this measure, there are few good coders. < 1161825386 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :All of whom work in Lisp. :p < 1161825425 0 :Razor-X!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Heh. < 1161825727 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've got an idea for basm. . . < 1161825749 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Allow "add" to accept, instead of just a variable, a list of variables as an argument. < 1161825759 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/basm/BFM/ XD < 1161825798 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This will allow for more concise code when you need to write the same value to two different variables. . . < 1161826144 0 :Razor-X!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :``Elegant'' code. Using ntohl to change endian-ness. < 1161827823 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mmkay. . . < 1161827830 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :BFM is starting to piss me off. < 1161827837 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or, rather, Tcl. < 1161827884 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's apparently decided that it doesn't like operating on the code I tell it to, and instead uses a radically different version of my program to interpret. < 1161827892 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: re-implement it in object orientated ruby < 1161828046 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bbl < 1161828957 0 :GregorR-L!n=GregorR-@host-225-114.dhcp.pdx.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1161829063 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION curses more at Tcl < 1161829082 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think tcl is a pretty awful language < 1161829092 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :jix: The reason why Tcl is used is because Tcl has the unique property of being a ready-made parser for BFM (by chance). < 1161829131 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's easy to do DSLs in ruby too < 1161829136 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :DSLs? < 1161829138 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh. < 1161829141 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :domain specific languages < 1161829142 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Domain Specific Languages. < 1161829154 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I bet it is. . . < 1161829161 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm rather fond of Tcl, personally. . . < 1161829170 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Although I can see how Ruby is better in some respects. < 1161829178 0 :Razor-X!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Stupid Palm. < 1161829184 0 :Razor-X!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :T3h rom aint dumpin' < 1161829189 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd rather learn something like Lisp, though. < 1161829203 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i didn't take a deep look into tcl (only when trying the ruby/tk module which isn't based on the c/tk api but on tcltk...) < 1161829215 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but what i saw didn't look nice < 1161829219 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: lisp is nice too < 1161829264 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I also need to put more effort into learning C. < 1161829274 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know just enough to make a fool of myself. . . XD < 1161829345 0 :lindi-!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 60 (Operation timed out) < 1161829346 0 :lindi-!n=lindi@kulho150.adsl.netsonic.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1161829399 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: one doesn't learn c.... just learn other languages and someday you'll just notice that you are able to program fluently in c... < 1161829404 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(that's what happened to me...) < 1161829442 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :jix: It's mostly the manual memory management that gets me. < 1161829450 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :learn assembler then < 1161829459 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or uhm somthing that has manual memory management < 1161829467 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :C. :p < 1161829472 0 :Razor-X!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, that happened to me too. < 1161829495 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Really, my issue isn't with C itself, but that I'm only know learning techniques for manual memory management *in* C. < 1161829499 0 :Razor-X!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mmmm. I do well with memory management in my head. < 1161829518 0 :Razor-X!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Play around with a Forth then? < 1161829545 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I intend to just keep trying until it clicks. < 1161830018 0 :jix__!n=jix@L608e.l.strato-dslnet.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1161830985 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1161831740 0 :Razor-X!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A lot of fun with memory management is emulating a small x86 processor. < 1161831774 0 :Razor-X!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Play around with ASM, without the pain of constantly inserting boot floppies (if you don't have a floppy drive, sadness). < 1161831829 0 :jix__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is anyone here running freenet 0.7? < 1161831841 0 :Razor-X!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nope. < 1161831908 0 :jix__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Razor-X: why should one need boot floppies when playing around with asm? < 1161831961 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :forth is nice < 1161832070 0 :Razor-X!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :jix__: I meant *really* playing around with ASM. < 1161832075 0 :Razor-X!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not Linux sugar-coated ASM. < 1161832095 0 :jix__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Razor-X: what's wrong with that < 1161832102 0 :jix__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is still the same language < 1161832122 0 :Razor-X!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because you aren't troubled by any of the restrictions of working in an OS. < 1161832133 0 :jix__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which are? < 1161832143 0 :Razor-X!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Cooperating with the kernel. < 1161832161 0 :jix__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i dont have to cooperate with the kernel... the kernel cooperates with my code < 1161832183 0 :Razor-X!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You have to add in sections and such. < 1161832199 0 :jix__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(i dunno maybe x86 assembler is really messed up but arm assembler is nearly the same for my gp2x which runs linux and my gba which has no OS) < 1161832223 0 :jix__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i allways tell the linker to create one section that is readable, writeable and executable and you're done < 1161832240 0 :Razor-X!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You have to add data, bss. < 1161832245 0 :jix__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1161832255 0 :jix__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can use one section for everything < 1161832258 0 :Razor-X!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm pretty sure you do in x86. < 1161832266 0 :Razor-X!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not 100% sure though. < 1161832275 0 :jix__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm 100% sure that you don't have to create different sections < 1161832316 0 :jix__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's just standard that the code section is rx the data section rw and the bbs section is just the data section without content in the executable file... so rw too < 1161832334 0 :Razor-X!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I still think that ASM from boot is more ``pure'' because you can have more control (and potentially more fun). < 1161832351 0 :jix__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can still mmap /dev/mem < 1161832353 0 :jix__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(as root) < 1161832363 0 :jix__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :when you want to talk to memmory mapped hardware directly < 1161832371 0 :Razor-X!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :True. < 1161832438 0 :jix__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the problem is embedded devices are a pain in the ass to debug (when they are too fast to get decent emulation and arn't emulated yet at all) < 1161832449 0 :jix__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so gdb + networking over usb is REALLY helpful < 1161832475 0 :Razor-X!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, I can bet. < 1161832481 0 :Razor-X!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But GBA has good emulation, no? < 1161832486 0 :jix__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1161832506 0 :jix__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the gba has no usb, no linux, no gdb and no networking tho < 1161832546 0 :Razor-X!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :True. < 1161832713 0 :jix__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well i was able to write a mandelbrot renderer in arm assembler without any debugging for the gp2x < 1161832727 0 :jix__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but i used a c lib to setup screen etc... only the calculation was done in sm < 1161832730 0 :jix__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*asm < 1161832802 0 :jix__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but i wouldn't be able to do my 1kb demo without debugger < 1161832822 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The GBA has a Linux variant for it, actually. < 1161832830 0 :jix__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah but that is uh... < 1161832839 0 :jix__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't want the linux overhead on a 16mhz arm7tdmi cpu < 1161832850 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hahah. < 1161832988 0 :jix__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the gba has no mpu/mmu so you'll fuck up your system very easily < 1161832989 0 :wooby!n=alan@cpe-66-67-60-51.rochester.res.rr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1161833007 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's that Linux variant that's set to run without an MMU. < 1161833030 0 :jix__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :µCLinux < 1161833041 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's the one. < 1161833045 0 :jix__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but without mmu isn't as bad as without mpu < 1161833084 0 :jix__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :without mmu => mem can't be moved around in phys mem because there is no mapping ... can be handled by properly relocating code etc... < 1161833108 0 :jix__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :without mpu => just write to a messed up pointer and linux has no way to catch that it'll go straight into the memory... < 1161833116 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :. . . Oh. < 1161833118 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That' < 1161833122 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s a bit of a problem. . . < 1161833235 0 :jix__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah but there were real operating systems that didn't used mpus in the early days because the cpus had none < 1161833253 0 :jix__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and that didn't use them in the later days because they didn't use them at the beginning < 1161833261 0 :jix__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just to name one... mac os classic < 1161833329 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, system 9- < 1161833343 0 :jix__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah the good 'ol days ^^ < 1161833373 0 :jix__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION started with mac os 7.1.something  < 1161833375 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OSX is an upgrade for sure, but there were some very nice aspects of the old systems that we kinda lost. < 1161833388 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :system 7.6.1 is my favorite version. < 1161833411 0 :jix__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah system 7 rocks < 1161833574 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have a Quadra 840av back home that's decked out- 8gb total storage, 128mb of ram and a *smokin'* 40hmz 68040. < 1161833652 0 :wooby!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT : < 1161833655 0 :wooby!n=alan@cpe-66-67-60-51.rochester.res.rr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1161833697 0 :jix__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i have an classic II with uhm 9"(????) bw screen < 1161834532 0 :jix__!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Bitte waehlen Sie eine Beerdigungnachricht" < 1161834552 0 :dbc!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like 6 better than 7. < 1161834593 0 :dbc!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That was the last one they wrote in asm. It's pretty fast. < 1161834625 0 :dbc!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :6.0.8, I think. < 1161834886 0 :ihope__!n=foo@c-71-205-100-59.hsd1.mi.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1161834922 0 :dbc!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OS X, from what I can tell, they've managed to make a version of Unix that is at the mercy of its own applications, which seems like an unprecedented accomplishment. < 1161835185 0 :ivan`!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :" HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <- The future of IRC" < 1161835280 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dbc: It's a version of Unix that places it's users at the mercy of Apple's whims (in this manner, it is very similar to Windows). < 1161835902 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Connection timed out < 1161836265 0 :GregorR-L!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :High-five @ pikhq ;) < 1161836277 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :;) < 1161836396 0 :GregorR-L!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Leaving" < 1161837110 0 :calamari!n=calamari@ip72-200-73-175.tc.ph.cox.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1161837675 0 :ivan`!i=ivan@wikipedia/ivan JOIN :#esoteric < 1161837769 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 113 (No route to host) < 1161839605 0 :dbc!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, that too. < 1161840795 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1161842111 0 :GregorR-L!n=GregorR-@c-24-21-138-66.hsd1.or.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1161844027 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :g'night. < 1161844774 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1161846708 0 :calamari!n=calamari@ip72-200-73-175.tc.ph.cox.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1161848776 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Leaving" < 1161849599 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :ended < 1161849600 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid JOIN :#esoteric < 1161849719 0 :GregorR-L!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Leaving" < 1161851448 0 :dbc!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1161853498 0 :thematrixeatsyou!n=thematri@219-89-243-34.adsl.xtra.co.nz JOIN :#esoteric < 1161854237 0 :thematrixeatsyou!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1161868235 0 :jix!n=jix@L608e.l.strato-dslnet.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1161874016 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :jix: Actually OSes without memory protection are coming back into fasion. See MS's "singularity" experiment. < 1161874037 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :jix: It works by proving at compile-time that the program won't muck anything up. < 1161874065 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well one could still modify the binary at post compile itme < 1161874065 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The compiler generates a proof that accompanies the program, and the loader checks the proof. < 1161874076 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1161874092 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and what do we get from moving the mem protection out of hardware? < 1161874100 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i doubt it's a serious bottleneck... < 1161874110 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :better IPC < 1161874129 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :processes can communicate by sending objects < 1161874152 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is ensured that each object belongs to only one process at a time. < 1161874170 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm that's interesting < 1161874182 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of course, once you have the proof framework in place, it is simple enough to add all sorts of things that restrict the freedom of the user, like content protection. < 1161874645 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SimonRC: You mean digital restrictions management (and other such forms of bondage)? < 1161874802 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, that was the phrase I was looking for < 1161878344 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :'morning, all. < 1161880618 0 :wooby_!n=alan@cpe-66-67-60-51.rochester.res.rr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1161880618 0 :wooby!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1161880844 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1161880881 0 :pikhq!n=pikhq@67-21-19-37.clspco.adelphia.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1161880981 0 :tgwizard!n=tgwizard@c-103fe155.178-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1161880995 0 :kipple_!n=kipple@167.80-202-102.nextgentel.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1161882410 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1161882561 0 :pikhq!n=pikhq@67-21-19-37.clspco.adelphia.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1161888459 0 :calamari!n=calamari@ip72-200-73-175.tc.ph.cox.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1161889344 0 :Asztal!n=asztal@82.16.83.152 JOIN :#esoteric < 1161889408 0 :GregorR-L!n=GregorR-@host-203-204.pubnet.pdx.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1161891092 0 :puzzlet_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1161891245 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Leaving" < 1161892099 0 :GregorR-L!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Leaving" < 1161892179 0 :yotwen!i=JavaUser@62.201.77.186 JOIN :#esoteric < 1161892209 0 :yotwen!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1161892525 0 :puzzlet!n=puzzlet@58.77.172.41 JOIN :#esoteric < 1161893701 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Lost terminal" < 1161893722 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1161894474 0 :pikhq!n=pikhq@67-21-19-37.clspco.adelphia.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1161895346 0 :pgimeno!n=pgimeno@124.Red-80-59-211.staticIP.rima-tde.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1161896747 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1161897379 0 :pikhq!n=pikhq@67-21-19-37.clspco.adelphia.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1161898132 0 :oerjan!n=oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1161898148 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :'Lo. < 1161898169 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hi < 1161898191 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :One thing I'm trying to make BFM do is allow you to pass a list of variables to, say, add and subtract. < 1161898235 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So far, all I've done is somehow broken the optimization code. < 1161898297 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you mean like add {x y z} 3? < 1161898317 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah. < 1161898431 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, have the original version be a subroutine and let the new just split up arguments < 1161898683 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i was going to suggest such a thing for is0 and isnot0 btw < 1161898705 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fixed. < 1161898720 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And the same change was made for is0 and isnot0. < 1161898729 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Something else this feature allows. . . < 1161898742 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :stdcons can write to multiple cells with one macro call now. ;) < 1161898998 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :At least, that's the theory. . . :/ < 1161899189 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is this some kind of implicit argument iteration for all macros? < 1161899256 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually, I'm just taking advantage of how stdcons only calls "set" and "add" on its first argument. < 1161899293 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aha < 1161899378 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :clever < 1161899433 0 :CakeProphet!n=CakeProp@h197.234.213.151.ip.alltel.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1161899594 0 :Sgeo!n=Sgeo@ool-18bf61f7.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1161899770 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gah! < 1161899803 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :problems? < 1161899824 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Seems that foreach has decided that "foreach i {foo bar baz} {puts $i}" should output "foo bar baz" instead of "foo\nbar\nbaz". < 1161900153 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sounds impossible < 1161900183 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unless it doesn't actually split up the argument < 1161900185 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Indeed, it does. < 1161900209 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But that's *seriously* what it's doing. < 1161900317 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is the literal code? < 1161900433 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :foreach i [lrange $args 0 end-1] {puts stderr $i;_add $i [lindex $args end]} < 1161900556 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :might $args happen to be a string rather than a list? < 1161900597 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I had stray brackets in $args that I thought I had processed out. XD < 1161900603 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fixed. < 1161901272 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I think I may have finally fixed the pointer movement issue in Basm once and for all. < 1161901298 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nope; not fixed. < 1161901311 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just working more weirdly than it used to. < 1161901768 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :All of my attempts to make it handle pointer movement correctly have resulted in the damned thing just outputting more cell movement than is asked for. < 1161901836 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION just realised a very, very stupidly obvious way to fix it < 1161901964 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm? < 1161901977 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not by dropping grouping of >< entirely i hope < 1161901983 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hahah; no. < 1161902217 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've been having it drop out of the > counting loop when i=0, not i=255. < 1161902228 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A simple add instruction fixes that. < 1161902253 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Never mind. < 1161902257 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Still broken somehow. < 1161902320 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And now it's broken in a way that I can't come up with a test for. < 1161902687 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Every test case I've attempted for this bug except for LostKng.b itself has resulted in 100% accurate compilation. < 1161902735 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you are sure that there is no bug in LostKng.b itself? < 1161902763 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It works in every other Brainfuck implementation. < 1161902893 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm thinking about just packaging stuff up and letting you take a look. < 1161902945 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right. have you use the new stdcons macros in basm? < 1161902952 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I do. < 1161904293 0 :ttm!n=ttm@130-94-161-238-dsl.hevanet.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1161904376 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Ex-Chat" < 1161904383 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Good night." < 1161905312 0 :tgwizard!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Connection timed out < 1161905482 0 :GregorR-L!n=GregorR-@host-200-78.pubnet.pdx.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1161905606 0 :Sgeo!n=Sgeo@ool-18bf61f7.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1161905905 0 :Razor-X!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Think: An OS that boots up and hands you a whole bunch of esoteric languages. < 1161906163 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :We shall call it. . . Esote! < 1161906172 0 :Razor-X!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wanted to call it EsOS. < 1161906178 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That'd work. < 1161906180 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SOS < 1161906193 0 :Razor-X!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Heh :) < 1161906194 0 :Razor-X!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : not by dropping grouping of >< entirely i hope < 1161906194 0 :Razor-X!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Hahah; no. < 1161906197 0 :Razor-X!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : not by dropping grouping of >< entirely i hope < 1161906197 0 :Razor-X!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Hahah; no. < 1161906202 0 :Razor-X!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gah. < 1161906215 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :. . . < 1161906256 0 :Razor-X!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That was my sister. < 1161906272 0 :Razor-X!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Having fun with one of my mice before I could C-t - . < 1161906274 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :She apparently likes C-y. < 1161906296 0 :Razor-X!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I *do* have mice, you know :D < 1161906306 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bad Razor-X, bad! < 1161906900 0 :ttm!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1161906920 0 :ttm!n=ttm@130-94-161-238-dsl.hevanet.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1161906936 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now, concerning EsOS. . . < 1161907001 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :IMO, we should start with a very, very simple kernel (perhaps a patched linux-tiny) and a Brainfuck interpreter. . . < 1161907003 0 :kipple_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1161907007 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Add PESOIX. < 1161907009 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :;)