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00:00:15 <oerjan> making disparate namespaces unnecessary
00:00:25 <Razor-X> Well, it's a performance hit.
00:00:54 <pikhq> Given that the compiler takes under a second on the largest known BFM program, that's a moot point.
00:01:28 <oerjan> _not_ optimizing would be trading cheap compiler performance for expensive programmer performance
00:01:34 <Razor-X> Well, I like listening to Bran Cohen, who tells me to make sure that no part of your application is dependant on ``sane input defaults''.
00:01:52 <Razor-X> Well, IMO, it's more in the BF philosophy, but that's just me.
00:02:30 <oerjan> which would mean always using clean macros which cleared before and after use, as today
00:02:58 <pikhq> One last thing to mention: the optimizing pass removes loops that won't ever run.
00:03:37 <oerjan> right, very easy with cleared cell handling
00:03:48 <pikhq> That works right. . .
00:04:28 <pikhq> I *was* going to do it when I first had cleared cell handling, but because it wasn't working well at all, I opted not to.
00:32:32 * SimonRC goes to bed
00:42:57 <Sgeo> "loops that won't ever run"?
00:43:51 <oerjan> if the loop variable happens to be zero
00:44:56 <Sgeo> Unless cleaning those up is occuring during runtime or something, how do you determine whether or not it will be zero at that point?
00:44:58 <oerjan> or rather: can be statically determined to be zero at this point of the program
00:45:16 <oerjan> that's the point of the cleared cell stack
00:45:53 <Sgeo> oh
00:46:03 <pikhq> Sgeo: We can determine that some cells, at some points, are guaranteed to be 0. . .
00:46:13 <pikhq> At other points, the codeer can tell the compiler the same thing.
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03:42:36 <bsmntbombdood> I hate this stuff
03:42:39 <bsmntbombdood> http://www.kidsprogramminglanguage.com/
03:44:54 <RodgerTheGreat> hm
04:37:32 <ivan`> that looks harder than python
04:37:53 <bsmntbombdood> Teaching kids to program is broken by defualt
04:38:01 <ivan`> why?
04:38:07 <ivan`> they should take the initiative?
04:38:35 <bsmntbombdood> Yeah
04:38:46 <RodgerTheGreat> not everyone is destined to be a coder, but starting early is a huge advantage.
04:38:56 <ivan`> that was easier when everything was monochrome and only ran BASIC and asm
04:39:21 <ivan`> today kids fulfill their computer torture quota fixing windows
04:39:45 <pikhq> That looks just wrong.
04:40:51 <pikhq> All one should do is give a kid the opportunity to become a programmer. . . Not. . . That. Eeeew.
04:41:11 <bsmntbombdood> Yeah
04:41:18 <RodgerTheGreat> I think BASIC remains a *great* way to introduce kids to programming. QBASIC is freeware now, I think...
04:41:31 <bsmntbombdood> Why?
04:41:36 <ivan`> python > QBASIC
04:41:41 <ivan`> don't braindamage any more innocent kids
04:41:48 <bsmntbombdood> I first coded on QBASIC
04:41:49 <pikhq> Python, IMO, is a decent language for introducing programming.
04:42:09 <pikhq> Basic's decent, but a kid who gets serious can't move on further.
04:42:18 <bsmntbombdood> We certainly don't need to engineer special languages for kids
04:42:27 <ivan`> tell that to the coders who made the qbasic flight sim
04:42:47 <ivan`> too bad it couldn't double buffer
04:43:13 <RodgerTheGreat> QBASIC is powerful for most things a kid could code on their own. DarkBASIC is a bit slow, but I think it's a pretty fantastic language.
04:43:16 <pikhq> ivan`: That's comparable to a chess program in Brainfuck. . . Just because it can be done doesn't mean it *should*.
04:43:57 <pikhq> RodgerTheGreat: I'd be much more skillful if I had started with a 'serious' language in the first place, I feel. . .
04:44:13 <bsmntbombdood> I remember longing for arrays when I coded in qbasic
04:44:23 <bsmntbombdood> (even though I didn't know what an array was back then)
04:44:39 <pikhq> I remember longing for *functions* when I did Apple Basic (although I didn't know what it was then).
04:44:44 <ivan`> i remember trying to do some parallel port communication without any debugging
04:44:56 <bsmntbombdood> I barely could understand GOSUB
04:45:01 <ivan`> i never figured out GOSUB
04:45:11 <bsmntbombdood> just calling a subroutine
04:45:18 <pikhq> There was no "GOSUB".
04:45:24 <pikhq> GOTO was it.
04:45:29 <bsmntbombdood> I was like "why would someone want to do this?"
04:45:37 <bsmntbombdood> there's gosub in qbasic
04:46:10 <RodgerTheGreat> BASIC taught me to build constructs by myself- I *invented* stacks and other data structures to build games. I designed my own GUI library because Basic didn't have any facilities for it apart from graphics primitives. If I had started with a language like Python, all I would have learned was how to use existing versions of these things.
04:46:30 <bsmntbombdood> So teach kids asm or c
04:46:43 <bsmntbombdood> s/teach/introduce to/
04:47:50 <Sgeo> I remember learning VB5. I hold that that forever crippled any ability to make GUIs by hand
04:48:06 <RodgerTheGreat> owch
04:48:36 <pikhq> I remember being forced to learn VB6 so that my *dad* could pass the damned class.
04:48:57 <pikhq> (I've since rm -rf'd it)
04:49:11 <RodgerTheGreat> I never really liked VB, mainly because the GUI portions always seemed to get in my way when I wanted to get actual work done. I'd have preferred trusty DarkBASIC any day.
04:49:40 <pikhq> I hated it with a passion, even then.
04:50:04 <RodgerTheGreat> then you probably never understood it.
04:50:27 <pikhq> No, that's what *caused* me to hate it with a passion. . .
04:51:05 <pikhq> Wasn't my first programming language. . .
04:57:55 <RodgerTheGreat> my favorite aspect of BASIC was that you could "escape" from the language- you could start loading and calling assembly or using pointers if you wanted to. It became as powerful a language as you wanted it to be.
04:59:21 <pikhq> You could (in theory) do psuedo-machine code. . .
04:59:41 <pikhq> Large amounts of POKEs could do it. :p
05:00:19 <RodgerTheGreat> I've never used another interpreted language that gave you so much power over the machine.
05:01:15 <pikhq> *echm* C interpreter.
05:07:04 <ivan`> python + embedded C
05:07:07 <pikhq> `$=`;$_=\%!;($_)=/(.)/;$==++$|;($.,$/,$,,$\,$",$;,$^,$#,$~,$*,$:,@%)=(
05:07:07 <pikhq> $!=~/(.)(.).(.)(.)(.)(.)..(.)(.)(.)..(.)......(.)/,$"),$=++;$.++;$.++;
05:07:07 <pikhq> $_++;$_++;($_,$\,$,)=($~.$"."$;$/$%[$?]$_$\$,$:$%[$?]",$"&$~,$#,);$,++
05:07:08 <pikhq> ;$,++;$^|=$";`$_$\$,$/$:$;$~$*$%[$?]$.$~$*${#}$%[$?]$;$\$"$^$~$*.>&$=` 
05:07:21 <pikhq> And people say Perl isn't an esoteric programming language.
05:07:33 <ivan`> that's the worst case example
05:08:30 <bsmntbombdood> RodgerTheGreat: Forth
05:08:45 <bsmntbombdood> pikhq: wtf is that
05:09:12 <bsmntbombdood> ivan`: How do you embed C in python?
05:09:21 <RodgerTheGreat> I wouldn't call FORTH a good language for beginners, bsmntbombdood 
05:09:22 <pikhq> bsmntbombdood: It outputs "Just another Perl hacker".
05:09:37 <bsmntbombdood> RodgerTheGreat: Why not?
05:11:23 <ivan`> bsmntbombdood, http://72.14.253.104/search?q=cache:LcJmrOj-b1sJ:old.scipy.org/documentation/weave+python+weave&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=1
05:11:53 <ivan`> part of http://www.scipy.org/
05:12:08 <bsmntbombdood> hmm
05:12:20 <bsmntbombdood> How does it do it?
05:12:30 <pikhq> Dunno.
05:13:19 <ivan`> weave.inline() compiles and executes
05:13:32 <ivan`> their idiotic webpage is broken
05:13:32 <ivan`> http://72.14.253.104/search?q=cache:8tUB6cC5RsUJ:old.scipy.org/documentation/weave/weaveusersguide.html+python+weave&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=2
05:14:00 <ivan`> oh you're asking about the perl monstrosity
05:14:30 <bsmntbombdood> No I was asking about the python+c
05:16:43 * bsmntbombdood tries weave
05:18:00 <bsmntbombdood> ...and it doesn't work
05:18:10 <RodgerTheGreat> lol
05:18:33 <RodgerTheGreat> reminds me of trying DarWine this morning,
05:18:49 <RodgerTheGreat> it couldn't even run the copy of notepad.exe it came with.
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05:32:09 <RodgerTheGreat> http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b190/MissMaryMack/pics/Cool_Shit/Kitties/KittyHate.jpg
05:32:20 * RodgerTheGreat laughs heartily
06:05:02 <RodgerTheGreat> g'night everyone.
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17:04:58 * Razor-X imagines RodgerTheGreat as Santa Claus.
17:06:19 <RodgerTheGreat> lol
17:07:15 <RodgerTheGreat> er, I mean "Ho Ho Ho"
17:07:23 <Razor-X> Yes! There you go!
17:15:48 <oerjan> *sigh* i used to think of myself as a linux fan. but now that i'm accidentally using windows and IE i am starting to get so annoyed at certain anti-IE webpages that i want to stay with IE just out of stubborness.
17:16:11 * Razor-X shudders.
17:16:22 <Razor-X> I was never anti-IE, but that's no reason to stick with an anathema.
17:18:18 <SimonRC> Gah!  My intuitive asymptotic ordering on a set of asymptotically strictly-increasing functions is not transitive!
17:18:54 <RodgerTheGreat> Gah indeed
17:18:58 <Razor-X> Haha. Order it better.
17:19:07 <Razor-X> Although why it needs to be transitive is anyone's guess.
17:19:27 <oerjan> well, otherwise it is not an ordering.
17:19:39 <Razor-X> Doh.
17:19:49 <Razor-X> You know? I feel sorta bad when someone in #scheme says they've been wrangling with a homework problem for 5 hours and I can think up a solution in a few minutes.
17:20:06 <Razor-X> Now, maybe the guy is just very stupid, but whatever.
17:20:54 <SimonRC> I feel the same when I go to a lecture and it turns out to be a 1-hour explanation of the obvious.
17:21:02 <oerjan> well, you know, half of everybody is more stupid than average :)
17:21:11 <Razor-X> Well, this guy's in a college CS class.
17:21:19 <Razor-X> I mean.... that's what the real scary part is to me.
17:21:45 <SimonRC> One of my formally assessed questions consists of ordering 25 functions by their asymptotic behaviour.  :-(
17:21:50 <SimonRC> I thought it would be easy
17:22:52 <Razor-X> And now that I'm seeing, the differences between CL and Scheme are very very pedagogic in certain places.
17:23:03 <RodgerTheGreat> I know several people in CS that honestly have no business programming
17:23:11 <oerjan> well, if the functions are arbitrary it is probably impossible to do nicely.
17:24:16 <oerjan> but if they are all o(...) each other in some direction then that should give you an ordering.
17:24:47 <SimonRC> they are all strictly-increasing after some point
17:24:57 <oerjan> that won't help.
17:25:25 <oerjan> they could still be dipping above and below each other indefinitely.
17:25:30 <SimonRC> AFAICT, they in fact have an ordering
17:26:52 <oerjan> of course if they eventually don't cross each other then you can use the eventual order
17:27:49 <RodgerTheGreat> I think the problem with CS is that the average starting salary for that field is extremely high, so some people choose the major for the money. Hopefully, those people will switch majors after the first year or two.
17:31:01 <RodgerTheGreat> I'll tell you, it's pretty frustrating trying to help someone whose only coding experience is a one-semester class in VB code in Java. Some people just don't get it, and probably never will.
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17:35:25 <Razor-X> Heh.
17:40:20 * SimonRC is suprised that a certain function turns out to be constant
18:19:09 <bsmntbombdood> Programming classes just make stupid people who can't code think that they can
18:20:51 <RodgerTheGreat> yeah, true.
18:21:27 <RodgerTheGreat> it takes more than a class to learn to be a programmer. If you aren't devoting a fair amount of your free time to coding, you'll never be good at it.
18:21:47 <bsmntbombdood> indeed
18:25:39 <lament> s/coding/anything
18:30:07 <bsmntbombdood> I should do some of those coding contests
18:31:18 <RodgerTheGreat> I've done a few
18:32:17 <bsmntbombdood> What's a good one?
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21:32:52 * SimonRC goes for pizza.
21:33:35 <bsmntbombdood> fun
21:34:13 * pikhq yells at bitlbee
21:35:16 <pikhq> 14:30 [localhost] -!- *** glibc detected *** double free or corruption (!prev): 0x080d3f18 ***
21:35:21 <pikhq> Bastard.
21:37:44 <Razor-X> Haha. Garbage collection bug.
21:40:40 <bsmntbombdood> fun, garbage collection
21:41:16 <Razor-X> Has anyone here heard of jMemorize?
21:42:13 <pikhq> The magic words are "identify password"
21:42:29 <Razor-X> identify password
21:42:38 <pikhq> That kills bitlbee.
21:42:44 <Razor-X> Oh, really?
21:42:58 <Razor-X> Lemme try it.
21:43:33 <pikhq> Well, it does that for me. . .
21:43:45 <pikhq> s/password/your_password_here/, BTW.
21:43:55 <Razor-X> Oh.
21:44:22 <Razor-X> Nope.
21:45:37 <bsmntbombdood> ha, bitlbee
21:45:55 <Razor-X> Also, does anyone here use rcirc and want to compare it to erc?
21:46:10 <bsmntbombdood> ha, erc
21:46:35 <Razor-X> What do you use?
21:46:46 <Razor-X> You either use irssi or XChat if you are on *Nix. I assure you.
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21:48:04 <bsmntbombdood> Yep, xchat
21:48:17 <bsmntbombdood> and irssi sometimes
21:57:41 <bsmntbombdood> whoa, http://www.emacswiki.org/cgi-bin/wiki/ErcChess
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22:09:24 <GregorR> lol
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