00:05:22 <Asztal> well, actually, camping is a nice little 4kB framework on top of acres of other code ¬_¬
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00:05:22 <Asztal> http://code.whytheluckystiff.net/camping/browser/trunk/lib/camping.rb <- that's pretty much why I like it
00:05:22 <RobHu> please print the sequence 1 to 10
00:05:22 <RobHu> lupine_85: http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/IRP
00:05:22 <Asztal> that's most of the code, there's a bit more to run it as a standalone server (via Mongrel, FastCGI or Webrick) :P
00:05:22 <Asztal> it's more of a joke framework, I think, but I love it
00:05:22 <RobHu> people write real stuff in camping
00:05:22 <Asztal> Do you know any Ruby? That would be a nice start.
00:05:34 * SevenInchBread is on Windows... probably doesn't have a Ruby interpreter thing.
00:06:53 <oerjan> bsmntbombdood: Sorry, that question is undecidable. Of course that cannot be proved.
00:08:39 <oklopol> bsmntbombdood no you don't
00:10:15 <SevenInchBread> hmmm... I wonder if you could use division by zero to do computations.
00:10:17 <SimonRC> It's ok to divide by zero if you are working in an appropriately defined superset of Q or R.
00:12:18 <SimonRC> It's also possible (with the right flags set) to divide by zero in F, though F is not a ring, field, or anything nice like that.
00:12:42 <SimonRC> F being the set and operations of IEEE floating point numbers.
00:14:04 <SimonRC> BTW, you know that primality-testing is in P, right?
00:14:18 <SimonRC> it was proven a few years ago, with a rather simple algorithm.
00:14:55 <bsmntbombdood> I just know of the probabalistic primality testing algorithms
00:15:48 <SimonRC> just because it's in P doesn't mean it's fast.
00:16:17 <SimonRC> The probabilistic ones are actually fast, rather than just being in P.
00:16:34 <SimonRC> I am, of course, considering the length of teh prime, not its value.
00:19:10 <oklopol> someday i'll understand p/np
00:19:44 * SevenInchBread has been procrastinating geting other language interpreters... now he'll have more incentive to try out Ruby.
00:19:49 <oerjan> someday the world might understand p/np.
00:20:25 <oklopol> oerjan i don't even understand what's there to understand
00:21:37 <oerjan> well p/np is about _how_ much harder it is to check a solution than to find it in the first place.
00:21:50 <oerjan> eh, the other way around.
00:22:59 <Asztal> Ruby is OK, as long as you don't try to interop with it. It's C API is so horribly mangled...
00:23:42 <SevenInchBread> It looks a lot less conservative than Python... which is kinda good... I'm starting to get bored with Python.
00:26:41 <SevenInchBread> ...wow... rubygems is the easiest thing I've used ever.
00:27:54 <oklopol> oerjan i know it's something like that... but is it just that?
00:30:26 <SevenInchBread> hmmm... so... I'll need to brush up on some Ruby to use camping nyah?
00:30:36 <lament> doesn't ruby kinda suck?
00:31:53 <oerjan> well you have to define it precisely mathematically of course. And then there are the NP-complete problems, which are the hardest among those that have easy to check solutions.
00:33:11 <Asztal> how so, lament? I'd say the C side of things does suffer from quite a bit of suckage, but the language ideas seem quite nice.
00:35:16 <SevenInchBread> heh... if Ruby sucks the tuitorial reading sure shows some convincing examples.
00:36:20 <SimonRC> Does ruby have an interactive prompt?
00:36:50 <oerjan> in a sense the most fundamental NP-complete problem is this: Given a Turing-machine with input, does it halt in a "yes" state after a polynomially bounded number of steps?
00:38:19 <lament> Asztal: Perl heritage.
00:39:28 <Asztal> It's a lot more usable than Perl, if you ask me (which for me, was the main problem)
00:39:39 <Asztal> %@$£@£x means what exactly?
00:40:00 <SevenInchBread> I always thought Ruby inherited a lot from Smalltalk and Eiffel?
00:40:13 <oerjan> or maybe an other equivalent definition: Given a Turing-machine with _part_ of its input specified, is there an assignment for the rest of its input that makes it halt yadda yadda.
00:40:18 <lament> Asztal: sure it's more usable, but i'm talking about the heritage.
00:40:34 <lament> Asztal: the conscious decision on the part of the language designers to borrow from Perl.
00:40:50 <lament> Asztal: that is a sign of deep brain damage
00:42:01 <oerjan> And then Cook's theorem shows that you can reduce all that to the much simpler SAT problem.
00:42:29 <Asztal> I'd agree that many parts of Perl (esp. its syntax and reference semantics) are brain damaging, but it wasn't all bad, was it?
00:50:09 <SevenInchBread> Ruby looks cool so far... I like the non-symboly syntax so far... but the "end" thing might be annoying. :P
00:54:23 <Asztal> I wish they wouldn't use => for hashes though. That's so annoying to type!
00:56:06 <Asztal> I'd just use : like normal people :)
00:57:36 <SevenInchBread> It's pretty rare that you use that syntax unless you're just making a really simple lookup table.
00:57:47 <oklopol> a is for apple, b is for banana
00:58:42 <SevenInchBread> ...the quotes get kind of tiring when you're a lazy bastard.
01:01:39 <SevenInchBread> I like the ! and ? convients too... with Python you just have to know from experience.
01:02:57 <oklopol> why do i have my greatest programming urges at 3 o'clock in the morning?!?! :<
01:03:04 <oklopol> i gotta sleep... -------->
01:06:48 <Asztal> this ruby code is valid:
01:07:03 <Asztal> wait, that wasn't all of it, wazup?!!!?!??1:!!??
01:10:29 <lament> the strange range syntax?
01:13:12 <oerjan> better than deranged syntax.
01:18:03 <Asztal> wazup? is a function name, ?? is equal to the character literal '?' (so !!?? == 1), I don't know about the rest, I'm very sleepy >_<
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01:26:17 <Asztal> here, they do different things in different places :/
01:27:22 <Asztal> it calls wazup?(true), eventually
01:30:27 <Asztal> oh, you mean inside the name, yes, they are
01:31:27 <Asztal> ! is generally applied to mutator methods,, and ? to question-like methods ( "flibble".empty?() )
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01:37:25 <oerjan> a convention borrowed from scheme.
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01:42:05 <lament> both conventions are fairly easy to actually enforce
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01:46:08 * pikhq returns, not wishing to declare his ressurection. . .
02:01:33 * oerjan stealthily calls the pope.
02:03:44 * pikhq stealthily calls protestantism
02:04:54 * oerjan stealthily calls the Russian patriarch.
02:05:40 * pikhq stealthily calls in the Chewbacca Defense
02:07:12 <SevenInchBread> I find it easier to play with the glue before I make the parts... I'll call a bunch of methods I haven't defined yet.
02:08:02 <oerjan> with this Forte interpreter I started bottom-up but now i am doing top-down.
02:08:40 <SevenInchBread> I'll make a few little parts to begin with... but later on I start going the other way..
02:08:52 <SevenInchBread> heh... so I guess I "meet in the middle" when I'm done.
02:13:23 <bsmntbombdood> n is a charmicheal number iff n is not prime and a^(n-1) cong 1 (mod n) for-all integers a that are relatively prime to n
02:14:39 <SimonRC> Ah, they are to do with a quick test for primality that occasionally flags a composite as prime, right?
02:15:47 <SimonRC> I guessed that from "n is not prime" and the fact the the number you named was so large
02:16:33 <bsmntbombdood> http://www.research.att.com/~njas/sequences/?q=id%3aA002997&p=1&n=10&hl=0
02:30:17 * ihope stealthily and unexpectedly calls the Spanish Inquisition
02:30:46 <oerjan> that second part is redundant, ihope.
02:32:24 <pikhq> NOBODY expects the Spanish Inquisition!
02:45:53 <pikhq> Yes. We're a bunch of geeks who need lives. . .
02:46:31 <pikhq> Why else would we know what the hell an infinite tape allows us to do?
02:47:50 <bsmntbombdood> n is a fibonacci number if the intersection of [phi*n - 1/n, phi*n + 1/n] and the set of positive integers is not empty
02:48:40 <pikhq> And that demonstrates what I'm talking about quite well. :)
02:50:01 <oerjan> what if you take negative integers? do you get the continuation of fibonacci numbers to the left?
02:51:04 <oerjan> hm, somewhat dubious ...,8,-5,3,-2,1,-1,0,1,1,
02:52:28 <oerjan> not much better ...,-8,5,-3,2,-1,1,0,1,1,
02:53:27 <oerjan> every number is the sum of the two left ones.
02:54:16 <oerjan> so the continuation is not quite the same as the negatives.
02:54:36 <pikhq> I'm rather positive that one couldn't extend the fibonacci sequence purely to the negatives. . .
02:54:43 <pikhq> It'd be a different sequence.
02:56:16 <oerjan> another sequence of the form a*phi^n + b/phi^n.
02:59:33 <oerjan> eh, a*phi^n + b/(-phi)^n, I think.
03:07:34 <pikhq> 2 2 20^^p20^p20^p20^p20^p20^p is better still.
03:07:42 <pikhq> More abuse of RPN! MORE!!!
03:09:12 <pikhq> No it's not. Seems pretty clean to me unless you try to use it as a Turing machine. :p
03:20:04 <bsmntbombdood> and it can pretty easily be used as a turing machine
03:30:51 <pikhq> Now implement regexps in it.
03:35:53 <pikhq> Or else it has infinite storage.
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04:39:03 <bsmntbombdood> http://www.gnu.org/software/bc/manual/dc-1.05/html_mono/dc.html
05:04:53 <bsmntbombdood> funny how long it took for me to come up with those few characters
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18:30:23 <lament> goban: get a better ISP!
18:35:38 <goban> lament: i will :( comcast discconnects me all the time
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19:04:27 <lament> that's why i don't like chess
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19:04:55 <goban> yeah, thats why computers are better than humans now
19:05:41 <goban> hey i just had an idea for a really pathological language
19:06:16 <goban> make it so each of the tokens have to be moves in a legal chess game!
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19:20:45 <lament> goban: i suppose it's not that bad if we waive the 50-turn rule or whatever it is
19:21:14 <lament> goban: then we can get into the endgame with just a couple pieces left and hope that the moves of those pieces are enough for TC
19:23:09 <goban> lament: go would be SOOO Much easier!
19:23:47 <goban> well there are many more possible moves, and captures make more space
19:23:53 <lament> in chess, once you have a few pieces left, it's very easy to move the remaining ones forever without ever interfering
19:24:15 <goban> you have to worry about the same position existing 3 times in chess
19:24:19 <goban> no unbounded memory
19:24:34 <goban> same with go, but its 19x19 so much more :)
19:29:22 <goban> you could have the chess game terminate with checkmate (or a drawn position) too :)
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23:06:54 <bsmntbombdood> using the stack is slower than using registers in dc
23:07:14 <lament> how is that disappointing?
23:08:26 <bsmntbombdood> time dc -e "10 4^3*sc 0 1[dSa+Lar lc1-dsc 1!=b]dsbx"
23:08:44 <bsmntbombdood> time dc -e "10 4^3*sa 0sb 1sc [lb d lc + sb sc la1-dsa0!=f]dsfx"
23:09:22 <bsmntbombdood> both of those calculate the 30000 fibonacci number, the first with the stack and the second with registers
23:10:19 <bsmntbombdood> those times were with the implementation that came with openbsd
23:10:38 <bsmntbombdood> the gnu implementation running on a faster box takes 2s for both
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23:46:28 <SimonRC> I thought there was a drop or discard command
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