01:14:58 -!- pikhq has set topic: - the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment -.
01:15:32 -!- GregorR has set topic: - the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment - map: http://www.frappr.com/esolang - forum: http://esolangs.org/forum/ - EgoBot: !help - wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/ - logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ or http://meme.b9.com/cdates.html?channel=esoteric - Pastebin: http://pastebin.ca/.
01:15:38 -!- GregorR has set topic: #esoteric - the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment - map: http://www.frappr.com/esolang - forum: http://esolangs.org/forum/ - EgoBot: !help - wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/ - logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ or http://meme.b9.com/cdates.html?channel=esoteric - Pastebin: http://pastebin.ca/.
01:16:10 -!- pikhq has set topic: - the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment - map: http://www.frappr.com/esolang - forum: http://esolangs.org/forum/ - EgoBot: !help - wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/ - logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ or ttp://meme.b9.com/cdates.html?channel=esoteric - Pastebin: http://pastebin.ca/ | 09F911029D74E35BD84156C5635688C0.
01:58:27 <bsmntbombdood> at least be esoteric and put it in base 47 or something
01:59:54 -!- GregorR has set topic: #esoteric - the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment - map: http://www.frappr.com/esolang - forum: http://esolangs.org/forum/ - EgoBot: !help - wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/ - logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ or ttp://meme.b9.com/cdates.html?channel=esoteric - Pastebin: http://pastebin.ca/ | 09F911029D74E35BD84156C5635688C0.
01:59:56 <bsmntbombdood> CfkRAp1041vYQVbFY1aIwA== is base64, i don't happen to have a base 47 encoder handy
02:00:26 <GregorR> Every URL is subtly wrong now.
02:00:37 <ihope> [2007-04-29 18:31:01] =-= Topic for #esoteric is ``#esoteric - the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment - map: http://www.frappr.com/esolang - forum: http://esolangs.org/forum/ - EgoBot: !help - wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/ - logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ or http://meme.b9.com/cdates.html?channel=esoteric - Pastebin: http://pastebin.ca/''
02:01:45 -!- ihope has set topic: #esoteric - the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment - map: http://www.frappr.com/esolang - forum: http://esolangs.org/forum/ - EgoBot: !help - wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/ - logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ or http://meme.b9.com/cdates.html?channel=esoteric - Pastebin: http://pastebin.ca/ | 09F911029D74E35BD84156C5635688C0.
02:01:45 <GregorR> That's fascinating, ihope.
02:02:48 <GregorR> All I did was add the channel name back to the topic X-P
02:02:57 <ihope> And what happened as a result?
02:03:00 <GregorR> What's hilarious is you all seem to have believed that I changed all the URLs :P
02:03:37 <pikhq> GregorR: You managed to remove an "h" from one URL.
02:03:48 <pikhq> Which is what I saw.
02:04:15 <GregorR> pikhq: All I did was copy/paste.
02:04:36 <pikhq> GregorR: You did that wrong.
02:04:46 <bsmntbombdood> wow, we've got people all over the place according to that frappr map
02:04:47 <pikhq> You managed to actually subtly change a URL. ;)
02:04:50 <GregorR> * pikhq has changed the topic to: - the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment - map: http://www.frappr.com/esolang - forum: http://esolangs.org/forum/ - EgoBot: !help - wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/ - logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ or ttp://meme.b9.com/cdates.html?channel=esoteric - Pastebin: http://pastebin.ca/ | 09F911029D74E35BD84156C5635688C0
02:08:14 <RodgerTheGreat> http://www.cafepress.com/nonlogic.100812817 <- get yer T-shirts!
02:10:12 <GregorR> http://www.cafepress.com/donotputthebaby <- get yer better T-shirts!
02:12:14 <GregorR> http://www.cafepress.com/bizarregeek.11389675
02:14:03 <bsmntbombdood> ah, yes, "A Million Random Digits with 100,000 Normal Deviates"
02:20:06 <ihope> http://www.cafepress.com/ozyandmillie.16057398
02:23:28 <GregorR> http://www.cafepress.com/esoprog.33142406
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05:00:04 <fax> I just learned about "Gödel's incompleteness theorem" recently
05:05:55 <fax> very upsetting
05:06:11 <fax> Im probably just misunderstanding the implications though
05:06:28 <fax> (someone else said it was liberating, so :S)
05:29:23 <bsmntbombdood> 210210102110222222110210121202122110020210201210202022220222000200122122021111
05:30:22 * pikhq watches as Digg melts. . .
05:30:44 <fax> #x1D0BEB394D6B32F3984F404B709303FD50221EE9FC7C8E8A0C2BC62767036A8F7
05:42:49 <GregorR> Wow, nice, xmame idles high.
06:31:41 <lament> fax: what misimplications do you know of?
06:32:09 <fax> well you cant build 'non-trivial' system which you can prove terminate
06:33:42 <lament> that's turing's halting theorem...
06:35:40 <GregorR> Uh, yeah, what you've got a hold of there is the halting problem, not Gödel's incompleteness theorem ...
06:37:19 <oerjan> but a _fine_ halting problem it is, nevertheless.
06:38:52 <oerjan> of course this strongly depends on your definition of "non-trivial".
06:40:16 <lament> oerjan: i strongly suspect the incompleteness theorem and the halting theorem are indeed highly related if not equivalent
06:40:27 <GregorR> I think you could say that any Turing machine which cannot be simplified into a (some specific) different machine cannot be proven to halt.
06:41:18 <oerjan> you can deduce a form of the incompleteness theorem from the halting theorem, yes. just make a search for proofs that programs terminate.
06:41:27 <fax> oerjan: right
06:42:28 <oerjan> however the reverse is a bit more dubious, since the halting detection algorithm is not required to use logic.
06:43:44 <oerjan> i.e. the halting theorem works even for algorithms that give no evidence for their answer.
06:47:12 <oerjan> actually the search for proofs that programs terminate may not be quite water-tight, because a logical theory can contain omega-false theorems - saying that something halts but lying.
06:49:13 <oerjan> in fact it follows from the theorems we are discussing: there must be an algorithm which doesn't halt but which can never be proved to never halt. and then it is consistent to add its halting as an axiom to a theory.
06:49:39 <fax> you can simply run it
06:49:49 <fax> counterexample should suffice
06:49:55 <oerjan> but if it never halts you will never know that it never halts
06:50:59 <oerjan> the running will never produce the actual evidence.
06:51:25 <fax> ah "The particular value of Omega that you get depends on your choice of computer programming language, but its surprising properties don't depend on that choice."
06:51:46 <fax> so you cant have a language with omega = 1, which you can do "anything" with
06:51:56 <fax> or I really mean everything
06:52:00 <oerjan> (that is not the same omega i am referring too, by the way.)
06:52:10 <fax> what is omega-false?
06:52:27 <oerjan> i may have made up that term.
06:52:39 <fax> well what is the meaning?
06:53:55 <fax> are you just saying a proof which relies on some unproved lemma
06:53:55 <fax> and this lemma happens to be unprovable
06:54:10 <oerjan> i am referring to omega-consistency, which is a stronger version of consistency for statements about natural numbers. It means that if a theorem says there exists a natural number with a property, then there actually is such a number in the ordinary sense.
06:54:38 <oerjan> such as the number of steps before an algorithm halts.
06:55:11 <fax> but how can the alternative (you can prove somthing, but its false) be true?
06:55:21 <oerjan> but if a theory is not omega-consistent then it can contain statements that are proved but "omega-false": there is no actual example
06:55:34 <fax> that makes no sense
06:55:52 <fax> theres no example because I dont know it.. or because its impossible to find one?
06:55:57 <oerjan> if you have a theorem of the form "there exists an n such that P(n)"
06:56:28 <oerjan> but there is no theorem P(n) for and actual number n
06:57:18 <oerjan> then your theory is omega-inconsistent, but may still be consistent because you cannot derive a contradiction from the absense of something
06:57:39 <fax> thats a lot less drastic than what I thought you meant before
07:00:15 <oerjan> i think (off my memory) Godel's first proofs required omega-consistency, but that was later changed to ordinary consistency.
07:01:42 <oerjan> so what you get then is that the halting theorem can probably be used to prove the omega-consistency version of Gdel's theorem.
07:01:56 <fax> that last message didnnt come through
07:02:03 <fax> somthing is wrong with this program.
07:02:26 <oerjan> probably my slipping in an iso-8859-1 character.
07:02:36 <oerjan> so what you get then is that the halting theorem can probably be used to prove the omega-consistency version of Godel's theorem.
07:02:58 <oerjan> i have still not set up Unicode properly on this account.
07:03:13 <fax> UTF-8 seems the de-facto standard for IRC
07:11:49 <GregorR> UTF-8 is the de-facto standard for pretty much everything.
07:12:06 <GregorR> Except Japanese+Shift-JIS :)
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23:15:02 <SimonRC> I just mis-lexed as "billo frights"
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