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00:29:48 <ihope> lament: pff, go and ruin all our HD-DVD fun? ;-)
00:29:56 <ihope> At least, I think that's what it is.
00:29:59 <ihope> Something like that.
00:35:30 <oerjan> decoding an infinite computation makes it much more difficult to define what it means not to cheat - you can no longer just require halting checker
00:36:35 <oerjan> basically, a computation that just added an increasing counter to the end of the program text would be universal if you allowed it
00:37:19 <oerjan> since the checker could simply be "run program for counter number of steps"
00:38:07 <bsmntbombdood> encode the code in the number of steps to run the tm
00:38:24 <oerjan> in fact even primitive recursive may be strong enough to allow the cheat
00:38:43 <oerjan> no, the encoder cannot do that if it is to halt
00:39:54 <oerjan> bsmntbombdood: or maybe i don't understand what you mean
00:40:48 <bsmntbombdood> have a function decode:tape state -> number of steps ran
00:42:01 <bsmntbombdood> encode the program into a natural number, run tm that many steps, decode tape contents
00:42:45 <oerjan> that would not be universal, because it always halts.
00:43:57 <oerjan> note that _only_ the tm is allowed to run indefinitely. i assume that the decoder gets to run once per step, with the current tape state
00:44:18 <oerjan> but not with any own state from previous steps
00:45:58 <oerjan> but still it gets too strong to allow a decoder that is arbitrarily primitive recursive
00:46:23 <oerjan> because that is enough for "run a program n number of steps" inside the decoder
00:47:10 <oerjan> on the other hand, i assume anything grep-like is definitely allowed
00:47:59 <oerjan> which means essentially, fixed memory limit for the checker
00:48:55 <oerjan> and almost anything that is more than that could be used to cheat
00:51:08 <oerjan> because you could simply have a checker that ran N steps or until it ran out of its current resource limit
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12:32:06 <Keymaker> a new thue program for a change. look-and-say sequence in thue: http://koti.mbnet.fi/yiap/programs/thue/las.t
12:35:01 <Keymaker> by the way, the original (i think) thue interpreter has some bug in it that can happen with 1-character strings (iirc). i can't remember anymore what it exactly was, but i noticed it in the c interpreter when one program i did didn't seem to work correctly and i was sure it was correct. then i made some simple test program and found the bug. so use some other interpreter.
12:36:16 <Keymaker> oh, i also uploaded new version of my digital root calculator in thue, not that anyone cares. there's also padovan sequence in underload (using unary) i made recently...
12:37:29 <Keymaker> expect some larger and more complex esoprogs again, soon.
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16:47:34 * SimonRC imagines some sci-fi about a person transported to a universe with immense negative curvature.
16:48:03 <SimonRC> enough that he gets slightly broke bones, but not enough to kill him
16:48:12 <SimonRC> ah, the fun you can have with the concept.
17:05:26 <oklopol> what is negative curvature? i wanna join the fun
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17:25:30 <lament> SimonRC: read "inverted world"
17:25:34 <lament> SimonRC: you'll love it
17:28:10 <oklopol> stop being interesting without sharing it!
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17:33:34 <oklopol> i meant negative curvature and inverted world :)
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20:18:29 <SimonRC> oklopol: You Know You're A Geek When: you just assume that eveyone you meet knows what hyperbolic geometry is.
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