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02:46:23 <GregorR-L> http://www.codu.org/hats.php < Now finally up to date.
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03:44:57 * Pikhq is of the opinion that you like hats too much
03:45:29 <GregorR-L> How many pairs of underwear do you own? Probably more than the number of hats I own ... I think you like underwear too much
03:45:53 <Pikhq> How do you know I'm not a nudist or something? :p
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04:59:33 <GregorR-L> I have to presume you intended a hyphen in there somewhere.
04:59:40 <GregorR-L> And I'm going to hope it's before "ass"
04:59:50 <GregorR-L> Because I'd say there are plenty of nerds without a weird ass-hobby.
05:04:37 <GregorR-L> http://www.codu.org/hats/Kofia-med.jpg < My newest hat is super-cool.
05:05:11 <GregorR-L> Though it makes me look super-bald :P
05:07:39 * Pikhq lacks a weird ass-hobby.
05:07:46 <Pikhq> Weird-ass hobbies? Plenty.
05:50:31 <Pikhq> I feel sorry for kids who saw that, I really do.
05:56:31 <GregorR-L> "Always ask someone you love before you put anything in your mouth."
06:56:52 <Pikhq> Would you prefer to do a PNG decoder by hand?
06:59:44 <Pikhq> And libc provides for it.
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07:22:11 <GregorR-L> http://www.google.com/search?q=lodepng
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10:22:14 <oklopol> i overslept as well.. luckily they let me in 40 minutes late
10:23:00 <oklopol> because i was the only one making the test (overslept it once already) it would've been kind of a waste not letting me in
10:26:12 <oklopol> you have more hats than i have underwaer
10:26:45 <oklopol> i'm pretty sure i have less than 8
10:30:07 <oklopol> hmm... i wonder if coffee would make that harder
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10:30:33 <oklopol> for some reason i assumed it would
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12:35:29 <oklopol> bsmntbombdood: did you read any other resources before starting? other than that one short post
12:35:42 <oklopol> about the not- sleeping thing
12:36:02 <bsmntbombdood> just google "ubermans sleep schedule" or "polyphasic sleep"
12:38:19 <oklopol> anyone from germany here (sorry if i should've already known), wanna write me a 150 word essay :>
12:45:21 <oklopol> i should probably be able to tell whether we last talked yesterday or the day after that... but i can't
12:45:53 <oklopol> prolly in the night, i don
12:46:02 <oklopol> 't see any reason why i wouldn't have been here
12:47:48 <bsmntbombdood> i woke up from my last full night's sleep about 2 days ago
12:49:33 <oklopol> i've done that much without any sleep a few times
12:50:02 <oklopol> but they say you lose your mind after about 3-4, however little you need sleep normally
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13:33:47 <bsmntbombdood> "Between the 120 ~ 150 hours mark vivid hallucinations, similar, but more lucid than those of a psilocybin experience tend to begin, and by the seventh day (160+ hours) the participants are reported to be both awake and lucidly dreaming continuously."
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17:20:10 <lament> that does NOT sound fun.
17:50:15 <SimonRC> was lolcode perpetrated by one of us lot?
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20:57:07 <aarcane> Does anyone know of a brainfuck interpreter which can be built as an apache module so I can use it in my database ?
20:57:37 <Pikhq> I think there is modbf, actually.
20:57:37 <aarcane> and I'd like if it included bindings to LOLCODE as well, since I'm planning to mix brainfuck and LOLCODE on my website :)
20:57:56 <aarcane> Pikhq, what's the website ?
20:58:25 <Pikhq> http://sourceforge.net/projects/modbf/ Can't attest to the quality, though.
20:58:43 <Pikhq> You could possibly be better off trying to write that in modphp or something.
21:31:03 <SimonRC> 17:48:45 < SimonRC> was lolcode perpetrated by one of us lot?
21:31:58 <aarcane> Jessicatz and red_herring seem to be the main proponents of LOLCODE, and neither is here
21:33:31 <aarcane> in fact I appear to be the only common link between #esoteric and #LOLCODE
21:34:15 <aarcane> and that's just 'cause jessicatz got me thinking about brainfuck o,.,0
21:35:14 <aarcane> speaking of brainfuck, how does one use the Database in brainfuck ?
21:39:13 <Pikhq> There is no database in Brainfuck.
21:39:31 <Pikhq> You could do something such as PESOIX to provide for Brainfuck database access, though.
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21:53:17 <ehird`> LOLCODE is goddamn stupid IMO
21:53:38 <ehird`> its authors appear to believe that an esolang based on internet abbreviations is a very new and funny idea that deserves its own website
21:54:50 <ehird`> also everybody ELSE seems to think its the funniest thing possible
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21:56:09 <oerjan> well it's not new, there is Omgrofl
21:56:38 <ehird`> but somehow it's all over the net with "Looky someone made a prgo languaj with INTERNET WURDS LOL!!!!!!!!"
21:58:06 <oklopol> hmm... it's long since i've gotten excited about languages whose main idea is their connection to the real world... like pokemon->commands, internet-slang->commands or smileys->commands
21:58:50 <oklopol> while these could make the greatest languages of all if properly made... their actual functionality is not cool in any way, usually
21:59:27 <oklopol> well, of course i get excited about them
21:59:42 <Pikhq> There's also smiley.
21:59:50 <oklopol> but not like "omg why didn't i invent this" excited
21:59:54 <oerjan> many esolangs are just a thin level of coding above something ordinary.
22:00:01 <ehird`> i mean, LOLCODE can be a good esolang...
22:00:09 <ehird`> but with the stupid overhyping and all of that, it
22:00:16 <ehird`> 's lost my respect at least
22:00:17 <Pikhq> oklopol: I've actually had ideas for a Pokemon language which *could* be interesting. . . Of course, it's just not interesting enough for me to write it.
22:00:24 <Pikhq> The most I'll do is talk about it.
22:00:32 <ehird`> Pikhq: object oriented, surely? "I choose you, CLASS!" -> instance of CLASS
22:01:05 <Pikhq> Each Pokemon contains a list of attacks. It goes through each attack before going on to the next. . .
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22:01:24 <Pikhq> It's looping construct is "mimic", wherein it can temporarily become another Pokemon.
22:01:46 <oklopol> that's an example of syntax-driven esolang design, which i was talking about, that of ehird`'s... which is kinda rude to say since you just said it :)
22:01:49 <Pikhq> So, psuedo-functional.
22:02:31 <Pikhq> Really, IMO, if you're going to do an esolang that's syntax based, you should have more than just the syntax be interesting.
22:03:38 <Pikhq> (or make the syntax so damned weird that that alone is justification. . .)
22:04:01 <Pikhq> (Malbolge's syntax counts, and it still has more than just syntax)
22:04:35 <oklopol> i've never played with malbolge
22:04:43 <oklopol> always assumed i ain't leet enough
22:04:55 <Pikhq> That's because nobody is.
22:06:03 <ehird`> hrm.. a language where "hello\nhello\nhello" is an infinite loop
22:07:38 * ehird` pasted http://pastie.textmate.org/65789
22:07:39 <ehird`> i highly doubt this is turing complete... it can infinite loop and metaprogram but not much more
22:08:51 <ehird`> syntax: INPUT or INPUT\nREGEXP\NREPLACEMENT (the replacements are carried out, then it is evaluated as one of those two syntaxes)
22:08:56 <ehird`> ANYTHING. -> prints ANYTHING
22:09:52 <oklopol> "one of those two syntaxes" ?
22:10:20 <ehird`> syntax: INPUT or INPUT\nREGEXP\NREPLACEMENT (the replacements are carried out, then it is evaluated as one of INSERT THIS MESSAGE HERE)
22:11:23 <oklopol> i'll try to understand that for a few minutes, then ask again
22:12:21 <oklopol> syntax: INPUT or INPUT\nREGEXP\NREPLACEMENT (the replacements are carried out, then it [it? the new INPUT?] is evaluated [like recursively?] as one of INSERT THIS MESSAGE HERE [i have no idea...])
22:12:38 <ehird`> like recursively - yes, it the new input - yes
22:13:13 <ehird`> EVALUATION PROCESS: INPUT. if INPUT is ANYTHING., output ANYTHING, OTHERWISE... INPUT\nREGEXP\nREPLACEMENT (the replacements are carried out, then the new input is evaluated)
22:13:40 <oklopol> that is a deathmode for slashes.
22:14:25 <oklopol> we tried to make a nontrivial loop in slashes... no one could do it
22:14:56 <ehird`> ^ hrm. this SHOULD print "world"
22:15:30 <oklopol> and in slashes you can have "/first/replacements/ any text here, just output /second/replacement/ sdf"
22:15:40 * Pikhq wants a death mode for Brainfuck.
22:15:48 <oklopol> and each time a char other than / is seen, it's output
22:15:50 <oerjan> actually, slashes doesn't have regexes
22:16:11 <oerjan> part of what makes it so difficult
22:16:17 <oklopol> i'm pretty sure it won't get easier though, actually
22:16:31 <ehird`> well - some regexp engines are near turingcomplete
22:16:35 <ehird`> perl's IS turing complete iirc
22:16:46 <oklopol> because you can't make context-binded replacements with regexes
22:16:51 <ehird`> so theoretically you could write the program just being a regexp with input crafted to make it work
22:18:06 <oerjan> however assuming only "normal" regexes it might still be as difficult to write a real loop, if you cannot handle escape characters
22:19:21 <ehird`> hmm my interpreter is totally borked
22:19:30 * ehird` writes a spec and makes someone else do it
22:19:42 <oklopol> if you have a way to make bnf'ish regexes, basically tree-rewriting
22:19:47 <oerjan> the problem with slashes as i see it is that you cannot do different things to \ in the "program" and "output" part, so quining seems nearly impossible
22:19:49 <oklopol> then making loops would be trivial
22:20:48 <oklopol> i only understand my own thoughts... i hate being human
22:22:01 <ehird`> slashes quining is easy
22:22:05 <ehird`> "hello world" is a quine in slashes.
22:22:09 * ehird` pasted http://pastie.textmate.org/65795
22:22:11 <ehird`> OK, someone implement ^^ that
22:22:25 <oklopol> ehird`: non trivial quine for looping
22:22:43 <oklopol> that was implicit given we searched for one for ages
22:23:37 * ehird` pasted http://pastie.textmate.org/65796
22:23:39 <ehird`> that's a sample program
22:24:09 * ehird` pasted http://pastie.textmate.org/65798
22:24:11 <ehird`> and its evaluation process
22:25:34 <ehird`> you can write loops in it, at least, with clever regexps
22:27:01 <oklopol> someone tell me how regexes make that easier than slashes, please
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22:27:10 <oklopol> also, what did oerjan say there
22:27:16 <ehird`> well... regexps are sane and fun and evil
22:27:57 <ehird`> take that, lisp folks - you can't arbitarily modify the TEXT and SYNTACTICAL STRUCTURE of your programs! :D
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22:28:29 <ehird`> possibly more IO etc could be done with , and stuff
22:29:27 <oklopol> i'm pretty sure someone will write my essay if i try for long enough
22:29:44 <ehird`> i'm pretty sure someone will implement my language if i try for long enough
22:30:03 <oerjan> can you explain the syntax more precisely?
22:30:19 <ehird`> oerjan: as far as where the regexp/replacement are got form?
22:30:48 <ehird`> if so, it's just a simple "Does INPUT consist of three lines? If so, the lines are INPUT, MATCH, REPLACE"
22:30:52 <ehird`> i forget the names - you know what i mean
22:31:21 <oerjan> and is that splitting redone after each substitution?
22:31:33 <ehird`> only if it needs to check if it needs some
22:31:53 <ehird`> "is there no search/replace possible? if so," is what triggers the check
22:32:26 <oklopol> eval(code){code.replace("\\n","\n"); s=code.split("\n"); if(s.length==1)print code; else eval(s[0].regex_replace(s[1],s[2])); }
22:32:37 <ehird`> what language is THAT?
22:32:51 <oklopol> kinda obvious what it means...
22:33:09 <ehird`> it doesn't handle \n etc in replacement/input
22:33:17 <ehird`> and it's the ANYTHING. that triggers the printing, not it being on one line
22:33:30 <ehird`> (e.g. you could have two lines "ABC\nDEF." and it'd print that)
22:33:34 <oerjan> what does ANYTHING. mean?
22:33:51 <ehird`> oerjan: any character, including a dot, followed by a terminating dot
22:34:21 <GregorR> I didn't sleep last night. I'm not tired, but I hae no energy whatsoever. Argh.
22:34:22 <ehird`> (any character, including a dot+)terminating dot
22:34:38 <oklopol> any character or any string?
22:34:50 <ehird`> read my evaluation process paste
22:34:54 <ehird`> you'll see hwo it works
22:35:55 <ehird`> what's not to understand about it?
22:38:26 <oerjan> so if the input _both_ contains 3 lines and ends with ., a substitution is done.
22:39:50 <bsmntbombdood> proof: http://icanhascheezburger.files.wordpress.com/2007/05/caption1.jpg
22:40:25 * ehird` pasted http://pastie.textmate.org/65806
22:40:28 <ehird`> that should be unambigious.
22:41:54 <oerjan> so the answer was "yes"
22:42:34 <oklopol> "Is INPUT 3 lines, and only 3 lines?" this is kinda funny :P
22:42:57 * ehird` pasted http://pastie.textmate.org/65808
22:43:01 <ehird`> and some comprehensive examples
22:43:13 <ehird`> oerjan: no - the input doesn't have to end with . to perform a substitution
22:44:05 <oerjan> that is not what my question meant
22:44:31 <ehird`> "so if the input _both_ contains 3 lines and ends with ., a substitution is done."
22:44:33 <SimonRC> GODSDAMNIT IT'S PAOLINI ALL OVER AGAIN!
22:44:58 <oklopol> <oerjan> the problem with slashes as i see it is that you cannot do different things to \ in the "program" and "output" part, so quining seems nearly impossible <<< can you explain that so that even i undestand?
22:45:11 <ehird`> if the spec + the example evaluations aren't enough, then i hav no idea what is :)
22:45:16 <oklopol> most things can't be explained that way, but i'll try my luck
22:45:20 <SimonRC> someone does what a thousand amartures have been doing for a decade, but they manage to make it popular for some reason, and they get all the fucking attention.
22:45:30 <ehird`> SimonRC: what - LOLCODE?
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22:45:51 <oklopol> SimonRC: that's the gist of pop music
22:46:03 <oerjan> i think i understand your language now
22:46:05 <ehird`> SimonRC: i agree if so.
22:46:11 <oklopol> i recognize my childhood piano riffs in todays popular music
22:46:15 <ehird`> SimonRC: reddit's going crazy about it
22:46:26 <ehird`> i pointed out its old had and got a nice shiny -8 points
22:48:53 <Pikhq> SimonRC: The worst part being that it's not all that good.
22:49:15 <ehird`> Pikhq: what - LOLCODE?
22:49:21 <oerjan> oklopol: most quines go something like: turn the data of the program into two copies, one being the rest of the program and one being the same data. this requires being able to treat the two copies differently, which seems impossible in slashes
22:49:30 <ehird`> The author asked what a ternary op was when he was shown one
22:49:35 <ehird`> (X) :) Y :< Z i think it was
22:49:39 <ehird`> and he asked if it was a goto label
22:49:49 <Pikhq> It's not even really esoteric!
22:49:53 <ehird`> and that "it has too much punctuation could it be expressed in words"
22:50:06 <ehird`> a ternary operator without symbols ... useless! :)
22:50:24 <Pikhq> If I can grok a program in it without having read the spec, it's not at all esoteric.
22:50:24 <ehird`> Pikhq: yes, it has includes and stuff - I CAN HAS STDIO? WHY CAN DOES YOU NEEDS STDIO? just do IO!
22:50:39 <oklopol> nonononono ternaries.... use other fixes for your multioperand needs!
22:51:08 * Pikhq is almost tempted to make a real Esolang which is superficially similar to LOLCODE
22:51:29 <Pikhq> It will, of *course*, be RPN.
22:51:29 <ehird`> i hope people forget about LOLCODE soon
22:51:32 <SimonRC> I am bitching about this more than you lot because I have seen it before.
22:51:43 <ehird`> and real esolangs can reclaim :)
22:51:50 <SimonRC> fucking Paolini did it with conlangs
22:52:07 <Pikhq> SimonRC: What, like the various Brainfuck variants which just change the instruction symbols?
22:52:10 <Pikhq> oklopol: Google it.
22:52:12 <oklopol> someone post the url if you have it
22:52:19 <ehird`> constructed languagse.
22:52:22 <Pikhq> http://ww.lolcode.com/
22:52:46 <oerjan> not _necessarily_ speakable...
22:52:47 <ehird`> it got popular before it was even implemented, too
22:52:53 <Pikhq> It's *really* stupid.
22:53:02 <ehird`> author was apparently either an amazing brain-evaluator or can't program.
22:53:06 <Pikhq> It's like a friggin' syntax replacement for C!
22:53:23 <SimonRC> Like genocides, you get really sick of them quite quickly.
22:53:27 <Pikhq> (and a really bad one, only supporting a subset)
22:53:48 <ehird`> lolcode's syntax doesn't mangle c's semantics enough to make it esoteric, but it also changes it too much so its just stupid
22:53:57 <Pikhq> "variables are untyped, *as far as we can tell so far*"
22:54:19 <ehird`> Pikhq: take a look at some of the implementations http://ww.lolcode.com/contributions/lolphp
22:54:26 <Pikhq> It's a bad sign when the spec doesn't even *decide* on whether or not it's typed.
22:54:55 <Pikhq> Excuse me while I call that "stupid".
22:55:27 <ehird`> http://ww.lolcode.com/contributions/mah-bukkit i don't even think this is PARSABLE.
22:55:50 <Pikhq> I get the feeling that nobody involved is a coder.
22:56:14 <ehird`> its mindboggling that an esolang has its own domain
22:56:30 <ehird`> So far, LOLCODE has appeared to me to be entirely loosely typed. I see this as causing lots of problems when it comes to implementation… even if we limit ourselves to LOLCODE being interpreted. — Kyle, 2007/05/29 09:11
22:56:30 <ehird`> ummmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm .... loose typing is much easier to implement
22:56:59 <ehird`> "I agree with dynamic typing. Otherwise, it sounds too much like a programming language. — Risser, 2007/05/29 16:31" ...
22:57:04 <Pikhq> Especially if you just want to write it in a higher-level, loosely-typed language.
22:57:34 <ehird`> http://ww.lolcode.com/contributions/database-queries DATABASE QUERIES IN A LANGUAGE CORE?
22:57:37 <Pikhq> Um, a huge amount of languages are dynamically typed. Go back to "AppleBASIC for Beginners", please.
22:57:44 <ehird`> WHEN ALL THE IMPLEMENTATIONS ARE ABOUT 3 LINES
22:57:49 <ehird`> AND ARE VERY INCOMPLETE
22:58:14 <Pikhq> I could probably write a self-hosting implementation in 100 lines or less.
22:58:26 <Pikhq> When your esolang is that simple, you fail.
22:58:41 <ehird`> esolangs should either be nicely big or tiny
22:58:57 <ehird`> now - somebody implement my language
22:59:13 <oklopol> you can't have but one file open at a time
22:59:29 <ehird`> http://ww.lolcode.com/contributions/hey-guys ........ threading...... DO THESE PEOPLE REALISE THEY'RE DREAMING FAR TOO FAR AHEAD?!!!!!!
23:00:09 <Pikhq> I think they want it to be more of a practical language than an esolang. . .
23:00:11 <oklopol> that's what you get when you don't know what turing completeness is...
23:00:11 <Pikhq> But fail horribly.
23:00:27 <ehird`> But it's a joke they don't quite get themselvse
23:00:45 <ehird`> So they just take loads of shitty concepts, warp them to their non-programming brains, and laugh about them
23:00:53 <ehird`> And make 3-line implementations that don't actually work, using php and substr().
23:01:09 <oklopol> i hate practical languages... perl makes me vomit with rage sometimes :)
23:01:21 <oklopol> though might be just my opinion it's practical
23:01:27 <Pikhq> Then you must hate PEBBLE.
23:01:49 <ehird`> i dont think the people doing all of this realise that the language with all the current suggestions would be 1. very hard to implement 2. a very big slow implementation
23:02:05 <Pikhq> If you go with the base suggestion, then it's far too easy.
23:02:17 <ehird`> i mean all the contribs
23:02:37 * oerjan is taking a shot at ehird's language.
23:03:02 <ehird`> what language are you implementing it in?
23:03:18 <oerjan> oklopol, avert your eyes!
23:03:31 <ehird`> self-hosting without an original impl? haha
23:03:46 <oerjan> makes it trivial, i hope
23:03:46 <lament> ehird`: it's the only pure way
23:04:04 <Pikhq> You know that Esolang contest a while back?
23:04:11 <lament> i hope ihope is not too upset with all these mentions of his name
23:04:14 <Pikhq> In lieu of judging, I think the entries, at least, should be posted.
23:04:42 <ihope> "I hope" is not my name.
23:05:01 <ihope> You can tell because it beeps whenever you say my name, but it doesn't beep when you say "I hope". :-P
23:05:02 <ehird`> ihope ihope hopes that ihope ihope hopes that ihope hopes.
23:05:56 <ihope> Besides, there are two other puns you can make out of "ihope".
23:07:26 <oklopol> hope... i've seen it too many times, starting to think there is no such word
23:07:46 <ehird`> oerjan: does it work? :P
23:08:33 <ihope> Yup, there's two of the puns.
23:08:51 <oklopol> oerjan: perl taught me concepts, so i have to like it, i just hate things like perl's <FILE> etc.
23:09:23 <SimonRC> I just have to take a different attitude.
23:10:01 <lament> so i hop into a bus and go to ihop where, i hope, i'll meet ihope
23:10:20 <ihope> "I hop"? That's one I haven't seen before.
23:10:24 <SimonRC> I need to take the D&D dragon attitude: extreme patience, and teasing of those that age ten times faster than oneself.
23:10:27 <ehird`> so i hop into a hope bus and i hope i go to ihop where i hope i'll hope to meat ihope
23:10:47 <ihope> Should I just tell you what the third pun is? :-P
23:11:30 <bsmntbombdood> i'm so tired, i haven't slept a wink \ i'm so tired, my mind is on the blink \ i wonder should i get up and fix myself a drink \ no, no no
23:11:31 <ihope> Should I tell you what the fourth one is, then?
23:12:04 <lament> no. We don't actually care.
23:12:43 <ehird`> oerjan: i'll s/// you soon if you don't post an impl! *g*
23:14:21 <SimonRC> Of course, this involves sending automated emails saying things like "Brainfuck is 15 years old today? Where is LOL"front-page-of-digg"CODE *now*, eh?"
23:15:03 <ehird`> SimonRC: Why do you check digg in the first place
23:15:23 <ehird`> oklopol: Apple, iLife, duh!!
23:15:24 <ihope> Apple does iEverything.
23:15:44 <SimonRC> the site was a bit slow, so I thought to check some common traffic-generators
23:16:05 <ehird`> SimonRC: reddit! reddit! :)
23:17:04 <SimonRC> Ok, folks, how long till Eric Bauman catches on?
23:17:30 <SimonRC> For is it not sung: "He travelled all around, on the wave of each phenomenon."?
23:17:40 <ehird`> 2 1/3456349857958734598347598375983487593875893759379345
23:17:51 <ehird`> it might be a long second.
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23:18:44 <ehird`> oerjan: testing it with an infinite loop are we?? *g*
23:18:50 <red_herring> why yuou callin LOLCODE an esoteric language.
23:18:55 <ehird`> red_herring: we're NOT.
23:19:06 <ehird`> in fact, RIGHT here, just now, we're insulting it!
23:19:10 <lament> who's calling what where
23:19:19 <SimonRC> It's an *attempt at* an esoteric language
23:19:32 <aarcane> SimonRC, it's not esoteric, it's functional
23:19:33 <ehird`> SimonRC: I don't think the authors know what esolangs are
23:19:36 <ehird`> aarcane: You are wron.
23:19:40 <SimonRC> LOLCODE is following a 30-year-old tradition without knowing it
23:19:44 <aarcane> esoteric languages are useless by definition :)
23:19:45 <ehird`> Functional in the pure sense?
23:19:51 <ehird`> Or functional in the useful sense
23:20:03 <ehird`> Because... if useful, then WTF - who would actually code in macros?
23:20:09 <lament> aarcane: please don't use terminology before learning what it means.
23:20:10 <SimonRC> "esoteric" in this context means that is is weird for the purpose of being weird
23:20:34 <ehird`> i suggest we get a bot that auto kickbans anyone saying "LOLCODE" without "sucks" or "i hate" in the same sentence
23:20:41 <aarcane> functional in this sense means it works
23:20:54 <ehird`> aarcane: so it's a real language that you seriously expect people to use for serious purposes
23:21:22 <aarcane> ehird`, it's a high level programming language for children and lolcatz <3
23:21:22 <ehird`> please go bang your head against a brick wall and then stop
23:21:48 <ehird`> aarcane: oh, i see, we're playing the "LOLCATS LOL LOL FUNNAY LOLLLERERSRZ" card
23:22:03 <red_herring> but words like 'function' and 'equals' dont mean anything to them
23:22:11 <ehird`> ... shit shit shit. you're right
23:22:38 <Pikhq> It really just looks stupid to me.
23:22:41 <aarcane> it's High Level Programming for Low Level people :)
23:22:42 <red_herring> i just want to go through the python source code
23:23:09 <Pikhq> And it sure as hell isn't functional.
23:23:18 <ehird`> aarcane: i wish you'd just realise its an idiotic idea
23:23:20 <Pikhq> I fail to see how something can be functional without even having functions.
23:23:31 <ehird`> Pikhq: aarcane meant "usable"
23:23:49 <oklopol> i think Pikhq's was still correct
23:24:00 <Pikhq> ehird`: Then aarcane should go back and learn a good deal about computer science.
23:24:28 <Pikhq> At least as much I have in my spare time after school.
23:24:29 <ehird`> Nobody involved in LOLCAT can program beyond PHP.
23:24:50 <Pikhq> bsmntbombdood: No, learning in your spare time is just as effective.
23:24:51 <ehird`> bsmntbombdood: nowhere did he say school
23:25:32 <oklopol> that's so great, i wish i could've started as well
23:25:45 <aarcane> ehird`, I've got years of experience programming in C, C++, Javascript, (ashamedly) Visual Basic, Java, and Python, as well as PHP.
23:25:56 <Pikhq> aarcane: It doesn't show.
23:26:12 <ehird`> aarcane: The only decent languages there are C, JS and Python.
23:26:25 <ehird`> Also, knowing a >language< isn't >knowing computer science<
23:26:32 <lament> ehird`: there's perhaps some value in learning java
23:26:38 <ehird`> If you're going to do something like LOLCODE, you need more than language experience
23:26:44 <lament> ehird`: if only to see what good intentions lead to :)
23:26:50 <Pikhq> lament: It does depend upon intentions.
23:26:58 <ehird`> lament: it has potential; but its crippling parts make it a letdown even for a learning language
23:27:09 <Pikhq> If your intention is to see the details of how not to do a language, then Java's got some good examples.
23:27:14 <lament> ehird`: i'm not saying it's good. i'm saying there's value in learning it.
23:27:19 <oklopol> not that i don't hate java, i do, but why do you ppl hate it so much? :P
23:27:29 <ehird`> oklopol: we're languageologists :)
23:27:36 <ehird`> C, Haskell, Scheme, and Ruby are my preferred languages
23:28:01 <Pikhq> I prefer C, C++, Tcl, and a tiny hint of Zsh scripting.
23:28:09 <ehird`> the former for low-level stuff... like implementing other languages ;) Haskell for writing elegant, large software, Scheme for elegant, small hacks, and Ruby for general scripts like esolang implementation
23:28:15 <Pikhq> Although I'm thinking about doing Haskell and Scheme.
23:28:24 <ehird`> C++ is an abomination.
23:28:32 <ehird`> Tcl's type system makes me weep.
23:28:39 <lament> tcl has a type system?
23:28:41 <Pikhq> Some of C++'s features are abominations, yes.
23:28:44 <SimonRC> ehird`: Tcl hs a type system?
23:28:52 <Pikhq> lament: It's very weakly typed.
23:28:58 <lament> i thought tcl was all strings
23:29:02 <ehird`> "everything's a string.. or a command. and strings are sort of commands. And also we're just going to let you do ANYTHING with all of this"
23:29:08 <Pikhq> More lists, actually.
23:29:11 <ehird`> Also, the syntax is shell-script-esque and I don't like it.
23:29:29 <lament> "I don't like syntax" is never a very strong argument :)
23:29:35 <ehird`> The two overlapping target markets for Tcl are filled by Ruby and Zsh for me
23:30:00 -!- lament has set topic: The international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment - map: http://www.frappr.com/esolang - forum: http://esolangs.org/forum/ - EgoBot: !help - wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/ - logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ or http://meme.b9.com/cdates.html?channel=esoteric - Pastebin: http://pastebin.ca/ | http://www.wolframscience.com/prizes/tm23/ | LOLCATS.
23:30:02 <Pikhq> Tcl's a bit of an acquired taste, though. . .
23:30:39 <bsmntbombdood> lolcats!! http://icanhascheezburger.files.wordpress.com/2007/03/suwwender1.jpg
23:30:52 -!- ehird` has set topic: The international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment - map: http://www.frappr.com/esolang - forum: http://esolangs.org/forum/ - EgoBot: !help - wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/ - logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ or http://meme.b9.com/cdates.html?channel=esoteric - Pastebin: http://pastebin.ca/ | http://www.wolframscience.com/prizes/tm23/ | LOLCODE is not an esolang.
23:31:15 <ehird`> hrm, you're right, not quite
23:31:16 <aarcane> now get SimonRC out of #LOLCODE and we'll be perfect :)
23:31:19 <Pikhq> LOLCODE is barely worthy of the tile "language", IMO.
23:31:22 -!- ehird` has set topic: The international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment - map: http://www.frappr.com/esolang - forum: http://esolangs.org/forum/ - EgoBot: !help - wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/ - logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ or http://meme.b9.com/cdates.html?channel=esoteric - Pastebin: http://pastebin.ca/ | http://www.wolframscience.com/prizes/tm23/ | LOLCODE is not an esolang or any other form of language that mat.
23:31:54 <lament> aarcane: and you out of here, presumably?
23:31:55 <aarcane> ehm.. speaking of SimonRC, does anyone know a BRAINFUCK apache module ?
23:32:14 <aarcane> lament, I'm here to learn an esoteric language, not because of LOLCODE :)
23:32:21 <ehird`> aarcane: you don't learn esolangs
23:32:26 <bsmntbombdood> aarcane: just write it in mod_[non esoteric language]
23:32:26 <Pikhq> aarcane: Modbf. Already suggested it.
23:32:42 <aarcane> ehird`, someone linked me to it earlier, but it claims to only work for Apache 1.3, and needs to be compiled in.
23:32:59 <Pikhq> Write it in mod_php or mod_perl or some-such.
23:33:19 <oklopol> manual pinging is so much fun :=)
23:33:20 <Pikhq> Or just write it in terms of C, and do CGI.
23:33:59 -!- lament has set topic: The international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment - map: http://www.frappr.com/esolang - forum: http://esolangs.org/forum/ - EgoBot: !help - wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/ - logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ or http://meme.b9.com/cdates.html?channel=esoteric - Pastebin: http://pastebin.ca/ | http://www.wolframscience.com/prizes/tm23/.
23:34:27 <oklopol> it's like ringing a random doorbell and running like crazy
23:34:42 <oklopol> ./part is not a part of my repertoire though
23:34:52 <ehird`> oerjan: ping {{interp!}}
23:35:11 <Pikhq> ehird`: source omg.bfm
23:35:24 <Pikhq> source ^stdcons.bfm
23:35:28 -!- W|cked has joined.
23:35:35 <Pikhq> string omg! "OMG! PING!"
23:35:53 <ehird`> that syntax is odd. ;P
23:36:10 <Pikhq> I've kept the .bfm file extension out of nostalgia. . .
23:36:15 -!- irbdavid has joined.
23:36:21 <Pikhq> PEBBLE: Practical Esoteric Brainfuck-Based Language, Eh?
23:36:29 <ehird`> How is it brainfuck based
23:36:37 <Pikhq> It compiles to Brainfuck.
23:36:46 <ehird`> http://www.google.com/search?q=Practical%20Esoteric%20Brainfuck-Based%20Language,%20Eh? you just made that up, on the spot.
23:36:56 <Pikhq> No, the name change was recent.
23:37:08 <Pikhq> http://pikhq.nonlogic.org/pebble-1.0-preview.tar.bz2
23:37:18 <Pikhq> I've been working on it for the better part of a year now.
23:37:25 <ehird`> maybe i'll write the RE interp in it
23:37:44 <Pikhq> I've already written an incredibly fast Brainfuck compiler in it. . .
23:37:53 <ehird`> interp-->PEBBLE->that compiler-->:D
23:38:26 <oklopol> well... i guess i should cred it's speed
23:38:50 <Pikhq> oklopol: The Brainfuck compiler: http://pikhq.nonlogic.org/pfuck-1.0.tar.bz2
23:39:03 <Pikhq> To build: make PEBBLE=path-to-pebble-here
23:39:29 <oerjan> argh! i cannot find a command to unescape characters in perl strings
23:40:10 <oklopol> $a=5; ==> "$a"="5" ==== LOL
23:41:10 <Pikhq> ehird`: Thoughts, beyond "Eeew, Tcl"?
23:42:16 <SimonRC> ehird`: oh gods I have created you as a monster in my own image
23:43:36 <Pikhq> I think he's busy shaking his head at my compiler. :p
23:45:29 <oerjan> it must be impossible because the perl faq has the question and doesn't answer it.
23:46:06 <oerjan> *impossible in a simple way
23:47:04 -!- irbdavid has left (?).
23:47:42 <oklopol> oerjan: what exactly is unescaping?
23:47:53 <oklopol> i wonder if i ever denoobify
23:48:01 <oerjan> turning \n and the like into the characters they represent
23:48:39 <oklopol> that's \\n right? you meant $ or what?
23:48:46 <aarcane> if I want to run brainfuck as CGI, I need a shebang at the head of the file. but does brainfuck support a shebang ?
23:49:12 <oerjan> something like that. "\\n" -> "\n" i guess
23:49:58 <oklopol> oerjan: i meant what was your problem
23:50:10 <oklopol> perl has a php like raw string thing right?
23:50:36 <oklopol> i explained it pretty well just now :=)
23:50:38 <Pikhq> aarcane: Things like a shebang are comments in Brainfuck.
23:50:46 <oerjan> the problem is that the string is not in the source
23:50:56 <oerjan> it is part of the input
23:51:29 <oklopol> perl actually evaluates strings runtime 8|
23:51:48 <bsmntbombdood> esoteric interpreters should be esoteric, use some self modifying code
23:52:28 <oklopol> my php thue interpreter had that same problem, couldn't solve it, so i just prohibited the use of $'s in the string :<
23:52:52 <oklopol> you could of course wrap strings into your own type
23:53:30 <oerjan> perl does not evaluate strings unless you give them to eval.
23:53:39 <SimonRC> oklopol: I think that sort of multi-line string with <<< is called a "here document" and originated in shell
23:54:03 <oklopol> oerjan: then what is the problem?
23:54:06 <oerjan> it does however have escape characters and interpolation
23:54:49 <oerjan> the problem is that ehird`'s language uses escape characters like perl and i was hoping to use perl's mechanism for handling them.
23:55:07 <ehird`> oerjan: just handle \t\n etc
23:55:29 <ehird`> Pikhq: it's a nice interp
23:55:33 <oklopol> SimonRC: i'm not sure what you meant, that's all, i don't know unix
23:55:45 <Pikhq> ehird`: It's not just an interpreter. . .
23:56:04 <ehird`> i'm going to steal some ideas from it :)
23:56:18 <ehird`> ive always wondered why stack-based is the most popular way to implement compilers
23:56:19 <Pikhq> If you do that with code, just be sure to use the GPL. . .
23:56:34 <ehird`> .. i don't think of local vars as a stack
23:56:39 <ehird`> i think of it as a mapping
23:56:44 <ehird`> so i'd use e.g. bf's tape
23:56:48 <Pikhq> The stack's only needed for the optimization pass.
23:56:56 <ehird`> i was commenting generally
23:57:24 <ehird`> ok, 3-stage language writing process:
23:57:31 <ehird`> write optimizing bf->c compiler
23:57:40 <ehird`> write lang->bf compiler in whatever language
23:57:46 <ehird`> write lang->bf compiler in lang
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23:57:56 <Pikhq> No, I had a 2-stage process.
23:57:57 <ehird`> use whatever-language lang->bf compiler to compile self-hosted one to BF
23:58:04 <Pikhq> Write lang->BF compiler.
23:58:04 <ehird`> then use bf->c to compile the result into C
23:58:11 <ehird`> i mean what i'm going to do
23:58:25 <Pikhq> Well, you're pretty close to my steps, at least. . .
23:58:27 <ehird`> it'll need some extra stuff - i need an unlimited tape, i expect
23:58:50 <Pikhq> Except that the first stage was written in a different language, and not meant to be put towards PEBBLE.
23:59:20 <Pikhq> . . . And it was only ported to give me a really good, large program for testing the compiler against.
23:59:37 <ehird`> is the selfhosted compiler avail anywhere?