< 1180829538 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we got grades today < 1180829896 0 :Pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :HS or college? < 1180829953 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hs < 1180830031 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :2 As, 1 B, 1 C and 2 Ds < 1180830034 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not so great < 1180830051 0 :Pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I had 4 As, 3 Bs this semester. . . < 1180830100 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :overacheiver < 1180830127 0 :Pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not really. My GPA's a 3.02. . . < 1180830265 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, i'm just glad i passed the two classes i got Ds in < 1180830329 0 :Pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Know the feeling. . . < 1180830358 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :spanish and physics < 1180830389 0 :Pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wish that I'd done physics instead of chemistry. . . < 1180830403 0 :Pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Chemistry + me = explosions. < 1180830413 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm taking chem next year < 1180830417 0 :Pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"How the hell did you get a *noble gas* to explode?!?" < 1180830424 0 :Pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^ me in a chem lab. < 1180830434 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :are you a sophomore? < 1180830446 0 :Pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Going into my senior year. < 1180830449 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1180830462 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :one year ahead of me then < 1180830505 0 :Pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Suppose so. < 1180831863 0 :GregorR!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1180832620 0 :jix__!n=jix@dyndsl-091-096-032-001.ewe-ip-backbone.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1180833131 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1180833183 0 :GregorR!n=gregor@c-76-27-232-8.hsd1.or.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1180833249 0 :Pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION curses very, very loudly at make
< 1180833281 0 :Pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is it too much to ask for make to follow its documented behavior? *Is it*? < 1180833317 0 :GregorR!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1180833371 0 :Pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :%.b : %.bfm < 1180833379 0 :Pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*Surely* pfuck.0.b matches that. < 1180833411 0 :GregorR!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION never uses that syntax.
< 1180833418 0 :jix__!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"CommandQ" < 1180833419 0 :GregorR!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :.bfm.b: < 1180833446 0 :Pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now, try "%: %.c". < 1180833469 0 :Pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or "pfuck.%:pfuck.%.c"; for my purposes, they're equivalent. < 1180833472 0 :GregorR!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :WTF? Is that "convert a .c file into anything"? < 1180833478 0 :GregorR!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ahhhhhhh < 1180833483 0 :Pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Convert a c file into an executable. < 1180833493 0 :Pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(obviously not portable. ;)) < 1180833629 0 :Pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://pikhq.nonlogic.org/Makefile < 1180833640 0 :Pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Care to tell me how I'm being an idiot? < 1180833660 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that was a tasty sammich < 1180833836 0 :Pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :. . . Found it. < 1180833874 0 :Pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have a file called "pfuck.bfm", not "pfuck.0.bfm" and "pfuck.-1.bfm". . . < 1180834206 0 :GregorR!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lawl < 1180834672 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : , < 1180838726 0 :oerjan!n=oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1180840685 0 :mbishop!n=martin@unaffiliated/mbishop JOIN :#esoteric < 1180840708 0 :mbishop!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1180842223 0 :boily!n=boily@bas2-quebec14-1096645562.dsl.bell.ca JOIN :#esoteric < 1180842241 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi boily < 1180842247 0 :boily!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi < 1180842281 0 :boily!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i had some hours to spend today, so i created a new programming language < 1180842300 0 :boily!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm not sure if i have developped it enough to add it to the wiki < 1180842423 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well the languages on the wiki are pretty variable < 1180842493 0 :boily!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i pasted a ruby interpreter on pastebin and i'm adding the article < 1180842497 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you have an implementation, or enough information that someone could make one, then i say go for it < 1180842539 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1180842645 0 :boily!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Betterave < 1180842652 0 :boily!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there, i just created it < 1180842988 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a syntax and list of commands would be nice < 1180843182 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :afk < 1180843283 0 :boily!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :currently doing it < 1180843528 0 :boily!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :did it < 1180843544 0 :boily!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hope my english isn't too bad... :/ < 1180843866 0 :Pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not Turing-complete. < 1180843889 0 :Pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :. . . Unless the size of each variable is unlimited or something. < 1180843911 0 :Pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :. . . Or. . . < 1180843920 0 :Pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :String *list*? < 1180843930 0 :Pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, infinite number of strings can be stored? < 1180843968 0 :boily!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as i coded it, i guess an infinite number of strings is possible < 1180844004 0 :Pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mmkay, so it is Turing complete. < 1180844011 0 :boily!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yay! < 1180844020 0 :Pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Although it'd be damned annoying to prove it. < 1180845441 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1180845497 0 :Sgeo!n=Sgeo@ool-18bf68ca.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1180845526 0 :boily!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Need sleep..." < 1180847494 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1180847584 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unlimited variables are probably turing-complete (minsky machines seem easy to emulate) < 1180847611 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the string list is not very useful without a way to use it for further computation. < 1180847622 0 :Pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And, even if the *variables* aren't unlimited, you can store at least one number via the size of strings. . . < 1180847654 0 :Pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, """""""" would store 4. . . < 1180847678 0 :Pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[""|1] would be an infinite loop, adding to the size. . . < 1180847694 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't think so. how do you get the size of the list other than as an integer? and there is no way to shorten it. < 1180847717 0 :Pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :. . . Yeah, that is a problem. < 1180847732 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in fact you would have a problem once the string list length exceeds the integer size. < 1180847746 0 :Pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Assuming that integers are bounded. < 1180847764 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and if they aren't you don't need the string list other than for output. < 1180847771 0 :Pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right. . . < 1180852686 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i wonder if you could have an algorithm that has a runtime of some uncomputable function < 1180852742 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not if it always halts. < 1180852787 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because then you could simply run it to find out the runtime. < 1180852812 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but < 1180852858 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :on the other hand the runtime of most ordinary turing-complete interpreters _is_ uncomputable. < 1180852911 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because otherwise their halting problem would be solvable by computing the runtime first, then running the algorithm for that long. < 1180852969 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :er, assuming the computed runtime only works if it actually halts. < 1180853016 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as with a busy beaver function < 1180857280 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1180857599 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :ended < 1180857600 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid JOIN :#esoteric < 1180857834 0 :glenker_!n=glenker@sjs-130-65-240-137.sjsu.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1180857850 0 :glenker_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1180857890 0 :glenker_!n=glenker@sjs-130-65-240-137.sjsu.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1180858316 0 :glenker_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"WeeChat 0.2.4" < 1180859399 0 :lament!n=lament@S010600110999ad06.vc.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1180862235 0 :sebbu!n=sebbu@ADijon-152-1-30-47.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1180871251 0 :jix!n=jix@dyndsl-091-096-032-001.ewe-ip-backbone.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1180875751 0 :jix__!n=jix@dyndsl-085-016-234-224.ewe-ip-backbone.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1180876326 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1180878504 0 :jix__!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :jix < 1180882860 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In Britain, we are graded for exams on the scale: A, B, C, D, F, N, U. < 1180882994 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A-D as usual, F = really bad, U = so bad they didn't even want to grade you, and N = didn't turn up. < 1180887325 0 :puzzlet_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :didn't turn up? < 1180887450 0 :puzzlet_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what does it mean < 1180888149 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :erm, exactly what it says? < 1180888155 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the scale is for exams < 1180888490 0 :puzzlet_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, didn't get what "turn up" means < 1180888521 0 :puzzlet_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as a non-native English user < 1180889308 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION tries to think of a synonym
< 1180889457 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"attend" < 1180889478 0 :puzzlet_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1180889507 0 :puzzlet_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :N is for who didn't get the exam at all? < 1180889542 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1180892192 0 :boily!n=boily@bas2-quebec14-1096644791.dsl.bell.ca JOIN :#esoteric < 1180892689 0 :boily!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"WeeChat 0.2.4" < 1180893995 0 :Sgeo!n=Sgeo@ool-18bf68ca.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1180894318 0 :sebbu2!n=sebbu@ADijon-152-1-78-42.w83-203.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1180894836 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is a makefile? < 1180894856 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(i prefer annoying people over google :)) < 1180895417 0 :sebbu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Connection timed out < 1180896196 0 :ehird`!n=ehird@user-54457988.lns6-c11.dsl.pol.co.uk JOIN :#esoteric < 1180896245 0 :helios24!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1180896250 0 :helios24!n=helios@195.37.106.60 JOIN :#esoteric < 1180896491 0 :sebbu2!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :sebbu < 1180897719 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: it is a file that is (usually) required by the *nix program make(1). < 1180897820 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm... tells the os how to compile the source, like, or= < 1180897821 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1180898146 0 :GregorR!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's a program called or= that tells the OS how to compile the source? < 1180898196 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you don't know it? < 1180898215 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, anyway, you don't have to know it to answer my question < 1180899478 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or=? < 1180899610 0 :ehird`!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a Makefile is a set of rules: < 1180899619 0 :ehird`!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :DEST: SRCS < 1180899619 0 :ehird`!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :COMMANDS < 1180899628 0 :ehird`!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"This is how you create DEST, using SRCS: COMMANDS" < 1180899639 0 :ehird`!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :make(1) just happens to use SRCS for intelligent dependency handling < 1180899642 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so, what i said? < 1180899653 0 :ehird`!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically. yes. < 1180899668 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :kubrick.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1180899804 0 :lament!n=lament@S010600110999ad06.vc.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1180899806 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is bash tc? < 1180899826 0 :ehird`!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :um, yes < 1180899831 0 :ehird`!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well < 1180899833 0 :ehird`!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not sure about bash < 1180899837 0 :ehird`!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zsh is, for certain < 1180899847 0 :ehird`!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i assume you mean "tc without anything but builtins" < 1180899854 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://maps.google.com/maps?f=l&hl=en&q=museum&near=San+Francisco,+California,+United+States&ie=UTF8&view=map&om=1&layer=c&cbll=37.777452,-122.504927&cbp=1,289.875024308419,0.628713401659621,3&ll=37.784554,-122.500091&spn=0.023674,0.040169&z=15 < 1180899872 0 :lament_!n=lament@S010600110999ad06.vc.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1180899930 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1180899987 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird`: you assume very correct. < 1180900124 0 :ehird`!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then, i'd say yes < 1180900144 0 :ehird`!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if/while/test/recursing functions/arrays... it's like a normal prog. language < 1180900154 0 :ehird`!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :``Actually I meant what I said, bash is a turing complete language.'' < 1180900159 0 :ehird`!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/sm-users/2005-December/000902.html < 1180900165 0 :lament_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course bash is turing-complete < 1180900197 0 :lament_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :indeed it's pretty powerful and expressive < 1180900199 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course bash is turing complete < 1180900206 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bash is very usefull < 1180900223 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i haven't used it < 1180900233 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so i wasn't sure < 1180900236 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is dos tc? < 1180900238 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1180900258 0 :ehird`!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :proof: a language with two characters, iota, * and i, is turing complete. it is laughably simple to implement (a few lines). you can implement it easily in bash. QED < 1180900277 0 :lament_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: batch files you mean? I'm not sure < 1180900289 0 :lament_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :_they_ might actually not be < 1180900305 0 :lament_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in their modern form, they probably are; in the original, they might well not be < 1180900320 0 :lament_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't think you could access unlimited memory with them < 1180901062 0 :Pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament_: It depends upon which DOS system you're referring to. < 1180901085 0 :Pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FreeDOS, for example, absolutely is. < 1180901465 0 :ehird`!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :``...SQL is not a programming language because it is for instance impossible to write an infinite loop in it.'' < 1180901502 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ooh, activity < 1180901517 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you mother < 1180901520 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it doesn't have to be turing complete to be a programming language < 1180901520 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*your < 1180901521 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... < 1180901541 0 :ehird`!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bsmntbombdood: it was a quote < 1180901543 0 :ehird`!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a silyl quote < 1180901545 0 :ehird`!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*silly < 1180901549 0 :Pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SQL is, obviously, a non-Turing complete, domain specific programming language. . . < 1180901597 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird`: hence the quote marks? < 1180901733 0 :tokigun!n=tokigun@haje8.kaist.ac.kr JOIN :#esoteric < 1180901938 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tokigun: hi < 1180901946 0 :tokigun!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hello < 1180903183 0 :Pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Leaving." < 1180903339 0 :Pikhq!n=pikhq@c-75-70-43-34.hsd1.co.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1180903957 0 :lament_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the problem with accepting non-TC languages as such is that, where do you stop? < 1180903979 0 :lament_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is html a programming language? Are text files a programming language? < 1180904002 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1180904007 0 :ehird`!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :meh < 1180904034 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can define it using humans in the definition < 1180904043 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because that's how it's usually done < 1180904047 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the defining < 1180904056 0 :lament_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :HTML is a bit of a corner case, since some people actually do call it a programming language, and some vehemently deny it is. < 1180904066 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hence, my argument < 1180904085 0 :lament_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :er, no, this is a counter-example to your argument :) < 1180904098 0 :lament_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since there's no consistent definition < 1180904127 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i've had that argument before < 1180904129 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :about html < 1180904199 0 :lament_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :personally i'm fine defining it either way < 1180904212 0 :lament_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as long as it's done according to some consistent procedure :) < 1180904213 0 :Pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A programming language should be a language expressing a set of logic for a computer to follow. < 1180904225 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pikhq: which html is < 1180904230 0 :lament_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pikhq: that's pretty meaningless. < 1180904244 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The problem comes when people count writing HTML as "programming experience". < 1180904253 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is bullshit < 1180904272 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well..... < 1180904275 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you just can't win < 1180904284 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is a very tiny amount of programming experience < 1180904313 0 :Pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But merely knowing algebra provides more experience. :p < 1180904324 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pikhq: i meant it perhaps need not be an unambiguous definition < 1180904336 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :though i did not really say that. < 1180904337 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OTOH, HTML has a very high "language level", so if it is suitable for a task, it will blow almost everything else out of the water. < 1180904339 0 :Pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: Hmm. . . That does make sense. < 1180904361 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow, i rarely hear that :) < 1180904386 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now, fixing my documentation... -> < 1180904391 0 :Pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :HTML isn't much of a programming language. . . It says in the name "Markup language". ;) < 1180904427 0 :Pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now, I'd call something like *LaTeX* a corner case. . . < 1180904430 0 :lament_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :'languge' stands for 'programming language', just as in many other acronyms. < 1180904435 0 :lament_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*'language' < 1180904450 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :latex is turing complete bro < 1180904450 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :TeX *is* TC.... < 1180904454 0 :Pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sure, it's a markup language. . . But it's got a Brainfuck interpreter written in it (I don't remember where) < 1180904476 0 :lament_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think we all agree that being TC implies being a programming language < 1180904481 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, there's that XML re-jiggeriser that is TC too. < 1180904483 0 :Pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of course. < 1180904489 0 :Pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SimonRC: That's just one XML namespace. < 1180904490 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quite an FP language IIRC < 1180904491 0 :lament_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why "of course"? < 1180904507 0 :lament_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :one possible way to define what is and what isn't a programming language is according to purpose < 1180904518 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ahh.... < 1180904519 0 :lament_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :by agreeing that TC languages are necessarily programming languages, we reject that wa. < 1180904522 0 :lament_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that way. < 1180904528 0 :Pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then surely Visual Basic isn't a programming language. < 1180904530 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just had another thought... < 1180904541 0 :Pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :. . . You know, I think I like a definition which excludes Visual Basic. :p < 1180904546 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::-) < 1180904574 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just because you can do programming in something doesn't make it sensible to call it a programming language... < 1180904574 0 :lament_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if we say "if it's TC, then it's a programming language", then we're defining based on _capability_ < 1180904595 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in the same way that just because you can do OO in something doesn't make it sensible to call it an OO language. < 1180904606 0 :lament_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is correct < 1180904607 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OO ASM probably works very well. < 1180904619 0 :lament_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but if you start rejecting TC things as programming languages, people will rebel. < 1180904645 0 :Pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SimonRC: The problem is that OO is not a primitive feature of the language itself, it's an addon. < 1180904646 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can do FP in C# 3.0, but that doesn't make it an FPL, because FP in it is unidiomatic and clunky. < 1180904668 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe it is to do with idiomaticity rather than possibility < 1180904672 0 :Pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you want to define things that way, HTML is Turing-complete, because you can strap ECMAscript into it. < 1180904726 0 :lament_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think we can all be sane enough to consider javascript as separate from html proper. < 1180904738 0 :Pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd *hope* so. < 1180904756 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You could make a Python "Hello World" program along the lines of the typical Java version, but that is unidiomatic. The normal way in Python is a single printing statement, because Python is a "scripting language". < 1180904787 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :java is yucky < 1180904791 0 :Pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The normal way in *many* languages is a single print statement. . . < 1180904800 0 :lament_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SimonRC: sure < 1180904803 0 :lament_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SimonRC: this is also why perl sucks < 1180904804 0 :Pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Even *assembly* has a simpler "Hello, world" program than Java. . . < 1180904809 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1180904820 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it is less portable! < 1180904823 0 :lament_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :perl can do a lot of stuff, is very powerful, and it's certainly possible to write clean code in it. < 1180904830 0 :lament_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just not idiomatic. < 1180904838 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, what if the program later needs to be expanded to read mail? < 1180904843 0 :Pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hello: .asciz "Hello, world!\n" < 1180904844 0 :Pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :main: push $hello < 1180904844 0 :Pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : call puts < 1180904864 0 :Pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SimonRC: Then obviously you should take the GNU Hello route. < 1180904874 0 :lament_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fortunately, we don't normally judge the power of languages by how easy it is to write hello world in them. < 1180904897 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1180904910 0 :lament_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :java was never meant for writing hello world. < 1180904914 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I realise my earlier statement was in fact totally pointless and confusing < 1180904929 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pikhq: using libc is not allowed < 1180904943 0 :Pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bsmntbombdood: Fine; just reduces the portability. < 1180904958 0 :lament_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(and if you argue that 'hello world' should necessarily be an easy program in every useful language, then you're just on crack) < 1180904962 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you have to use sys_write < 1180904973 0 :Pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://pikhq.nonlogic.org/hello.asm This is, of course, what you want. < 1180905005 0 :ehird`!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :defending java is forbidden < 1180905007 0 :ehird`!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is final! :) < 1180905008 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i assume sys call 4 is write < 1180905025 0 :Pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :On Linux, at least. < 1180905056 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :don't you have to put 0 somewhere for stdout? < 1180905093 0 :Pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :On kernels newer than a certain version of 2.2, the registers default to being 0. < 1180905102 0 :Pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, that is, on process creation. < 1180905106 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1180905127 0 :Pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not at *all* portable, but it 'works'. ;) < 1180905168 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and ebx is 1? < 1180905239 0 :Pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yup. < 1180905246 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what for? < 1180905286 0 :Pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :stdout == 1 < 1180905295 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1180905306 0 :Pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And syswrite takes the stream to write to as the first argument. < 1180905808 0 :GregorR!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Success < 1180907006 0 :ehird`!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT : < 1180907240 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"CommandQ" < 1180907507 0 :lament_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :lament < 1180908287 0 :GregorR!n=gregor@c-76-27-232-8.hsd1.or.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1180913605 0 :sebbu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"@+"