00:14:18 * SimonRC refers to something he has mentioned on several other channels, though not here.
00:14:32 <oerjan> yes you have mentioned it here.
00:15:16 <oerjan> barbeque party at SimonRC's!
00:17:07 <SimonRC> I didn't say anything about cooking
00:17:56 <SimonRC> Ok, let's change the subject...
00:18:05 <SimonRC> Nice weather we're having.
00:19:38 <pikhq> Sex with goats under the midnight sun.
00:20:26 * SimonRC fails to recall what "the midnight sun" is a euphamism for.
00:20:50 <bsmntbombdood> isn't it just when the sun is up at midnight in the far north?
00:21:06 <pikhq> Nothing, really. He's far north, and during the summer there, it doesn't quite hit night.
00:21:14 <pikhq> (although the sun does set, IIRC)
00:22:19 <oerjan> it's 1:20 am and the sky is nice and blue, although not exactly bright
00:22:34 <lament> i thought midnight sun was a euphemism for an orgasm
00:22:47 <oerjan> (without DST it's actually 0:20)
00:24:12 * pikhq hates your country. . .
00:24:24 <pikhq> I want it to be *night* all day long for a while, too. :p
00:24:43 <oerjan> that would be around December.
00:24:59 <pikhq> I. . . And you. . .
00:25:11 * pikhq will stick with his lower latitudes
00:27:10 * SimonRC concatenates lament's last two remarks and laughs
00:29:14 * pikhq concatenates RodgerTheGreat's statement with lament's second to last statement
00:29:40 <oerjan> btw Trondheim is at 63 degrees North
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00:30:28 <bsmntbombdood> that's 23 more degrees north than 40 degrees north
00:31:36 <pikhq> SimonRC: My concatenation makes sense
00:31:55 <pikhq> a fluorescent lamp? i thought mignight sun was a euphemism for an orgasm
00:32:10 <pikhq> oerjan: Too far north. :p
01:02:11 <RodgerTheGreat> pikhq: could you *try* to explain that redcode IS the language used in corewars?
01:02:28 <RodgerTheGreat> I have repeatedly failed to explain things like this to yuriks.
01:03:35 <RodgerTheGreat> a very stubborn, and often hilariously wrong, programmer in another channel.
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01:20:49 <ihope> What is this channel? >:-)
01:22:40 <ihope> The >:-) doesn't give it away? :-P
01:47:23 <ihope> Well, is anybody else getting "precondition failed" on the wiki?
02:01:03 <ihope> Well, it's not coming from creating pages.
02:01:22 <ihope> (Hopefully creating subpages of Esolang:Sandbox at random doesn't annoy anybody.)
02:06:04 <ihope> What if I delete them right after?
02:13:13 <oerjan> IT CLUTTERS UP THE RECENT CHANGES!
02:19:00 <ihope> Doesn't everything?
02:19:19 * ihope begins to lean toward "they
02:25:31 * SimonRC swears at a guy who write like Joseph Conrad.
02:31:05 <ihope> Does anybody know what might be causing these precondition errors?
02:31:58 <oerjan> ihope: what were you trying to view?
02:32:08 <ihope> I was trying to create a page.
02:32:33 <oerjan> oh. maybe it's a spam filter or some unrecognized markup?
02:32:46 <oerjan> i have seen such an error a long time ago, i think
02:34:10 <oerjan> i had to remove some part of the message, i think
02:35:06 <oerjan> do you get this error on preview? in which case you can easily experiment
02:35:44 <ihope> Apparently it's because of the string "../"
02:36:50 <ihope> I was using dots instead of spaces for empty space in a two-dimensional language, so I can use spaces instead.
02:38:11 <ihope> I can also put <!-- --> inside there, but that's inelegant.
02:38:59 <oerjan> what about an entity? not that i know the right ones for . or /
02:41:05 <ihope> Or template substitution, which would also foil anybody's attempts at editing the page. >:-)
02:43:39 <ihope> Assuming that template substitution is actually possible.
03:05:50 * SimonRC decides that _Imagining the Tenth Dimension_ is utter bullshit: http://www.tenthdimension.com/medialinks.php
03:05:59 <SimonRC> seriously, that is an official video.
03:06:56 <SimonRC> Joseph Conrad wrote _Heart of Darkness_, a book which I had to study in school and which is amazingly difficult to read.
03:07:36 <SimonRC> It is almost indescribably dificult to read
03:07:51 <SimonRC> You can't be that hard to read merely by bad grammar, you have to have something else, I am not sure what
03:17:21 <ihope> (Imagining the tenth dimension? Shouldn't we start by imagining the fourth spacial dimension?)
03:19:22 <SimonRC> The video starts reasonable, but gradually descends into utter bullshit.
03:19:38 <SimonRC> And that's just adapted from the first chapter of the book.
03:31:07 <ihope> "He cried in a whisper at some image, at some vision - he cried out twice, a cry that was no more than a breath - '"The horror! The horror!"'
03:31:27 <ihope> Takes a couple seconds to digest.
03:32:14 <RodgerTheGreat> I fail to see how "a universe with different initial conditions" creates an "additional infinity", if infinity already represents everything that was or could result.
03:33:33 <SimonRC> The terminology is crap, but I think there is more crap below that
03:33:56 <ihope> Wait, that video was adapted from part of Heart of Darkness?
03:34:11 <RodgerTheGreat> I was a little confused about those mixed references there
03:34:49 <ihope> I'm guessing there's a Tenth Dimension book or something, then.
03:35:40 <ihope> Oh, I either didn't notice that or assumed it was for Heart of Darkness or something.
03:35:43 <SimonRC> (Godsdamnit people, string theory is not bullshit, it's theoretical-physics masturbation.)
03:36:08 <SimonRC> ihope: erm, note the domain name?
03:36:27 <ihope> Who says string theory is bullshit?
03:37:49 <SimonRC> Some people on furums that were discussing the book.
03:38:38 <SimonRC> simple explanation: http://xkcd.com/c171.html
03:39:15 <RodgerTheGreat> the main thing I call bullshit on in theoretical physics is the quantum physics is the concept that behavior is probabilistic and chaotic. Apparent chaos is an emergent property of sufficiently complex deterministic systems, damnit!
03:41:28 <SimonRC> RodgerTheGreat: I am assured that there are things that QM does that can't be done by hidden variable theories.
03:42:58 <ihope> RodgerTheGreat: you're saying the universe isn't random?
03:43:17 <ihope> Does QM necessarily have randomness?
03:43:18 <oerjan> SimonRC: i think those proofs only work to disprove theories without faster-than-light communication
03:43:35 <ihope> I don't know that the many-worlds interpretation is probabilistic.
03:44:09 <RodgerTheGreat> ihope: that's a good point- strictly speaking, it isn't
03:46:26 <RodgerTheGreat> SimonRC: you remind me of one of my favorite John Von Neumann quotes: "If you can tell me what, precisely, it is that a computer cannot do, I will build you a computer that will do it."
03:46:58 <RodgerTheGreat> viewing deterministic systems as computers, naturally, to make an analogy
03:47:02 <ihope> Did Alan Turing tell him what, precisely, it is that a computer cannot do?
03:48:59 <RodgerTheGreat> it was a comparison of human abilities to that of a computer
03:49:59 <oerjan> as in: the only reason a computer cannot do something a human does is because we don't know precisely how a human does it
03:51:11 <RodgerTheGreat> I'm of the opinion that we can only effectively guess at quantum behavior because we don't fully understand how it works.
03:53:06 <RodgerTheGreat> and I cited the effectiveness of ordered systems at producing chaos as an example of a known example of an "opaque" algorithm.
03:53:41 <ihope> Now, the Copenhagen and the many-worlds interpretations are pretty much the major ones, right?
03:54:02 <SimonRC> argh my faith in humanity is destroyed
03:54:31 <SimonRC> all it took was a few minutes reading blogs about Imagining the Tenth Dimension.
03:54:37 * ihope hands SimonRC a list of miracles with all instances of "God" replaced by "humanity"
03:54:42 <ihope> What, what'd they say?
03:54:52 <ihope> (And isn't Copenhagen many-worlds plus observation, and can't the effects of observation be explained by entanglement?)
03:55:05 <SimonRC> They were all amazed at it and said how it made string theory easier to understand
03:55:34 <SimonRC> I hope bloggers aren't as smart as most people.
03:56:14 <ihope> What, you haven't seen "Are You Smarter than a Fifth Grader"?
03:58:34 <ihope> We really need to put some more emphasis on education...
03:58:57 <ihope> Let's start with education education, educating people about the benefits of education.
04:00:00 <ihope> Especially science and coding, though naturally we also need people to manage and govern and all that.
04:01:01 <RodgerTheGreat> I was thinking a while ago that schools should require reading and writing in early grades and then switch to a core curriculum of mathematics, philosophy and formal logic, with tons and tons of elective options (especially good options for the arts)
04:01:28 <ihope> Philosophy? Like... what sort of philosophy?
04:01:38 <RodgerTheGreat> and things like a foreign language and a simple coding language (LOGO anyone) should be taught from an early age
04:02:36 <RodgerTheGreat> ihope: a wide range of schools of thought. Primarily to encourage ordered thoughts about things like ethics, religion and life. The application of the mind to the world.
04:03:05 <RodgerTheGreat> the main goal would be to demolish taboos against scientific inquiry into various topics.
04:04:44 <RodgerTheGreat> LOGO is as syntacticly pure as LISP, in many ways, and is more accessible.
04:05:33 <RodgerTheGreat> BASIC (and I know this is a bit of personal bias) is an excellent language for beginners as well, in terms of quick rewards for experimentation and a very intuitive method of programming.
04:15:48 <RodgerTheGreat> that doesn't mean it's an unsolvable situation, it simply has more to do with the students than the concept of schools themselves
04:16:04 <RodgerTheGreat> you have to want to learn to truly grow from education
04:16:45 <RodgerTheGreat> so, solve it on a societal level. Make people want to learn, and schools will reshape themselves to suit the proactive desires of the students
04:17:15 <RodgerTheGreat> I'm not saying schools are unflawed, but they have some redeeming facets
04:17:40 <RodgerTheGreat> you can't make people DO anything, but immense evidence suggests that you can make people WANT something.
04:18:48 <bsmntbombdood> i don't think centralized schooling can foster education
04:19:25 <RodgerTheGreat> please, enlighten us with your wisdom in alternative education strategies.
04:19:55 <bsmntbombdood> i think people should seek education on their own, in their own way
04:21:12 <RodgerTheGreat> not everyone is cut out for that type of education. Those that want it already do. We need a way of convincing more people that it's important and worthwhile.
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04:22:31 <RodgerTheGreat> In my case, my high-school didn't offer any computers courses at all. I still took as many science and math classes I could, and explored programming and computers in my own time. Few of my peers have the same level of interest, and thus few of my peers in college have my level of skill and knowledge.
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04:22:56 <RodgerTheGreat> we need to examine where the motivation for education is rooted.
04:23:10 <bsmntbombdood> the math and science courses in my high school aren't educational
04:24:11 <RodgerTheGreat> view public school to education as wikipedia is to proper research: an outline, a starting point, not necessarily a complete corpus.
04:26:02 <RodgerTheGreat> I don't pretend I enjoyed highschool. However, I know for a fact that if you enter a class with a chip on your shoulder, you won't learn a damn thing. Even the most incompetent teachers taught me things, wether it was the subject of the class or not. Be openminded.
04:28:50 <bsmntbombdood> actually, the thing my teachers have taught me is that schools are broken
04:31:19 <oerjan> whatever you expect to get, is what you will usually get.
04:32:41 <oerjan> they improve your ability to make the best out of the conditions.
04:36:12 <SimonRC> I seemed to learn just fine in school
04:36:26 <oerjan> there is a book about this i read, it's called "The Luck Factor". the author carried out experiments to find out whether there were people who actually were lucky.
04:36:44 <oerjan> surprisingly, the answer was yes.
04:37:00 <oerjan> and the most deciding factor was optimism.
04:37:59 <oerjan> also, people could improve their luck by changing their outlook.
04:38:47 <oerjan> one of the experiments involved putting a bill on the street in front of a place the subjects were going to meet the experimenters.
04:39:26 <RodgerTheGreat> SimonRC: I would define luck as the perception of one's tendency to success or failure. Key word: perception.
04:39:30 <oerjan> the lucky optimists picked up the bill, the unlucky pessimists simply ignored it as if it wasn't there.
04:40:37 <oerjan> i don't remember but my understanding is simply that they were so _determined_ to believe they were unlucky that they refused to sense any opportunity for the opposite.
04:41:45 <bsmntbombdood> there could be other factors when deciding to pick up money off the street
04:41:47 <oerjan> basically, people unconsciously act to reinforce their beliefs, even if they believe they don't.
04:41:56 <SimonRC> oerjan: and, having made this discovery that shakes the foundations of modern physics, what did he do next?
04:42:23 <oerjan> well he actually didn't prove anything directly anti-scientific.
04:43:01 <oerjan> as far as i could see.
04:43:10 <oerjan> well, clearly he published a book.
04:44:32 <oerjan> naturally, his definition of luck was not about being able to influence dice or that kind of thing, it was about practical luck
04:44:54 <oerjan> it's been a while since i read it.
04:45:36 <SimonRC> actually, that matches what I think
04:45:49 <oerjan> yeah, i remember we had a similar conversation
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04:46:11 <SimonRC> I also think that it is very difficult to change your own attaitude without assistance.
04:47:10 <SimonRC> therefore, if you are unlucky you still can't just change to being lucky without help, but for a different reason
04:48:07 <SimonRC> Note: If someone is helping you to change yourself, then by definition you aren't doing it without assistance.
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14:36:20 <ihope> I like Epigram. You can define functions that return different types based on whether their arguments are multiples of 3.
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15:48:52 <jix> i have an idea for another esolang...
16:16:06 <jix> but i have to do physics homework first
16:16:31 <ihope> What, using things so mundane as bits? Why not use billiard balls instead?
16:17:08 <jix> because bits work quite nice.....
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18:54:13 <ihope> See? There's the bot.
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19:04:50 <pikhq> I'd be better off with smoke signals in LA.
19:04:50 <pikhq> *STOP LAGGING, DAMN IT!*
19:04:56 <pikhq> I get connected, and the lag time immediately starts counting. :(
19:05:06 <lament> turn off the lag timer!
19:05:35 <pikhq> "Join to #esoteric was synced in 74 secs"
19:06:26 <lament> 74 seconds is not that bad.
19:08:05 <RodgerTheGreat> 74 seconds is fairly bad when we're talking about something like IRC
19:08:28 <pikhq> Jeeze. I'd have better response times from the ISS.
19:08:35 <pikhq> My lag time is 24 seconds.
19:12:44 * ihope sends pikhq a CTCP PING
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19:15:27 <ihope> Two minutes, 30 seconds.
19:15:36 <ihope> That's pretty darn bad.
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19:25:43 <pikhq> Here's hoping that it decides to be more obedient.
19:26:02 <lament> it puts the lotion on its face or else it gets the hose again!
19:26:29 <pikhq> It puts the packet in its tube or else it gets the SIGKILL again.
19:33:00 * ihope sends pikhq another CTCP PING
19:40:00 <oerjan> 0.431 seconds to ihope.
19:40:23 <ihope> You're getting replies from me faster than I am?
19:40:33 * ihope pings himself again
19:40:56 <ihope> Consistently above 1 second.
19:42:50 <oerjan> consistently around 0.5 seconds.
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20:05:47 <pikhq> Any reason for the /leave, Barrucadu?
20:08:11 <lament> Barrucadu: your language, HEX
20:08:34 <lament> Barrucadu: has one big problem
20:08:49 <lament> Barrucadu: it lacks easily addressable memory
20:09:07 <lament> Barrucadu: since each piece of memory has to be created individually and with a unique name
20:10:30 <lament> this is not critical in itself, since it's an esolang
20:11:12 <lament> esolangs don't have to be sane
20:11:25 <lament> but it does make programming much, much harder
20:12:08 <lament> if the size of each individual piece (bug) is limited, that means the overall amount of memory available is finite, so the language cannot be turing-complete.
20:12:44 <Barrucadu> if there is a limit, its being set by PHP, i'll just check the documentation
20:13:09 <lament> it's not a good idea to define YOUR language in terms of PHP.
20:13:26 <lament> if PHP changes, does that mean your language changes too?
20:13:37 <lament> your language is a separate entity
20:13:46 <lament> with its own specification
20:13:52 <oerjan> lament: but the only thing that makes you think there is a limit is the PHP implementation.
20:14:00 <Barrucadu> well, the interpreter is written in PHP, and I haven't set any limits
20:14:22 <lament> the interpreter the way it's written now has a limit
20:14:38 <jix> then the spec should say so or the interpreter should be changed....
20:14:52 <jix> oh and i should do physics homework :/
20:14:59 <lament> we have lots of precedent of not specifying memory size
20:15:02 <lament> starting with brainfuck
20:15:15 <lament> but it's always nicer when things are explicit
20:15:26 <Barrucadu> how did you hit this limit? must have been a pretty big value
20:17:42 <lament> seems you have changed the interpreter, because now i can't add two numbers
20:18:11 <oerjan> the interpreter is made up of bugs, they keep moving all the time :)
20:18:47 <Barrucadu> you can, there's just been a small syntax change
20:19:02 <lament> what's wrong with this program?
20:19:49 <lament> i get melon melon melon.
20:22:44 <lament> Bug("foo", "9999999999999");
20:22:46 <lament> Bug("foo", "9999999999999Bug("bar", "1");
20:22:57 <lament> did that paste correctly
20:23:19 <lament> irssi always has problems pasting stuff :(
20:23:33 <oerjan> second line seems broken
20:23:42 <lament> Bug("foo", "9999999999999");
20:23:43 <Barrucadu> so "Bug("foo", "9999999999999Bug("bar", "1");" should be "Bug("bar", "1");"?
20:23:45 <lament> Bug("foo", "9999999999999Bug("bar", "1");
20:23:54 <lament> and darn it all to heck
20:24:11 <lament> Bug("foo", "9999999999999");
20:24:31 <lament> run that program, then remove the Breed statements and run it again.
20:25:46 <Barrucadu> hmm, the first time it gives "1E+13", the second "9999999999999". even though they are both the same
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20:28:30 <oerjan> that's not so weird, a slight rounding off error would do that.
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20:29:36 <oerjan> of course that indicates the implementation does not use unbounded integers
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20:36:39 <Barrucadu> i'm just trying to find the maxmimum number you can calculate in HEX
20:37:55 <Barrucadu> Bug("foo", "99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999");
20:39:09 <Barrucadu> If I can figure out how, i'll write a compiler at some point, so there will be no limit
20:41:42 <Barrucadu> i'll also begin thinking of a way to get around that limit
20:42:51 <bsmntbombdood> it's just important that the language doesn't have limits if you want it to be turing complete
20:49:49 <pikhq> Well, there's a difference between a limit on the size of numbers and the size of what can be stored.
20:50:03 <pikhq> It looks like he can actually *store* any number of variables.
20:51:08 <lament> pikhq: the number is limited by the size of the program
20:52:13 <pikhq> So, the limit itself is adjustable.
20:54:01 <lament> pikhq: that's not enough for turing-completeness.
20:54:31 <lament> you can solve any problem that halts by giving it adequate memory.
20:54:51 <lament> (you can in Smetana; i don't know about HEX but i'm sure it's possible)
20:55:05 <lament> but of course, you don't know in advance if the memory will be adequate
20:56:03 <pikhq> What's to stop you from having a oo filesize?
20:56:04 <lament> and since you don't know whether the problem halts
20:56:13 <lament> pikhq: the definition of algorithm.
20:57:06 <lament> it's cheating, a finite-state automaton with infinite states :)
20:57:26 <lament> it would also mean your variable names in themselves get infinitely long
20:58:38 * Barrucadu sits back and watches the discussion about turing-completeness
21:00:12 <lament> in general though, there's nothing wrong wiht infinite programs
21:00:30 <lament> you can get them in self-modifying languages by growing the source dynamically, and nobody complains
21:01:13 <lament> the game of life is normally presumed to be played on an infinite field and nobody complains either
21:03:53 <lament> perhaps the reason is that the game of life doesn't have explicit labels
21:04:00 <lament> eg the cells aren't named
21:04:08 <lament> in smetana they are, and the names would get infinitely long
21:04:19 <lament> (and the same in HEX obviously)
21:05:20 <Barrucadu> well, even if I can't get it to be turing-complete, I achieved my goal of making a Discworld-themed language
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21:41:53 <lament> yes, he achieved that.
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21:58:41 * SimonRC finds the original Bill Gates "640k" quote.
22:00:40 <SimonRC> particularly: "I have to say that in 1981 making those decisions, I felt like I was providing enough freedom for ten years."
22:03:24 <lament> the difference between 6 and 10 isn't that big.
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22:21:55 <SimonRC> ooh, gates predicts that unix would get a standard in the early 90s
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22:22:09 <SimonRC> also, he predicted that OS/2 would be the future
22:22:18 <SimonRC> well, you win some you lose some
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22:49:10 <pikhq> (he doesn't step down for another year or so
22:50:46 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Gates#Transition
22:59:42 <lament> i don't think you'd like it
23:00:23 <SimonRC> He still looks like a geek.
23:02:12 <SimonRC> Oh dear: He says that networking will become standard for PCs, he says that data (maps, encyclopedias, etc) is important, and he says that you need hypertext to navigte all the data...
23:02:27 <SimonRC> but he doesn't connect the two together.
23:03:11 <SimonRC> "Apple's going to have to get off the 68000 at some point"
23:03:26 <SimonRC> "on to one of these RISC instruction sets."
23:09:49 <ihope> pikhq: how much of Microsoft does Gates own?
23:12:19 -!- pikhq has quit (Remote closed the connection).
23:13:17 <ihope> He seems to be the chairman of Microsoft.
23:14:55 <ihope> Executive chairman.
23:28:23 -!- pikhq has joined.
23:52:32 -!- gnilor has joined.
23:52:43 <gnilor> is there a script somewhere, that translates "text" into brainfuck programs
23:54:12 <oerjan> there is one in EgoBot, if that had been here.
23:54:30 <gnilor> haha, well no biggy i'll script it up
23:55:33 <oerjan> there is also pikhq's PEBBLE
23:55:45 <oerjan> although pikhq just left too
23:56:08 <gnilor> ah found something through google
23:56:24 <gnilor> though it missed the personnal touch that a bot could have provided ;)
23:59:11 <bsmntbombdood> uses a genetic algorithm to get the result as small as possible