00:42:49 <Sukoshi> Good job throwing off UTF-8 encoding, bsmntbombdood !
00:42:59 <Sukoshi> Why do y'all even use archaic encodings like Latin1 ?
00:44:01 <oerjan> i haven't bothered to fix my account setup and there are all these old Latin1 files...
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00:45:00 <oerjan> fwiw, even motd from the sysadmins seems to be Latin1 last I checked
00:45:30 <oerjan> some things change slowly at nvg.
00:49:14 <ihope> Wait, somebody said something?
00:49:37 <ihope> But it's not esolang-related.
00:50:07 <oerjan> the computer club i'm irc'ing through
00:50:22 <lament> that's your own fault.
00:50:34 <oerjan> had an account for, let's see, 15-16 years
00:50:50 <lament> i wasn't even born back then
01:09:26 <oerjan> for one thing, you cannot put class contexts on type
01:10:51 <oerjan> (well that was a first. the other times i sent things to #haskell that should have gone here.)
01:42:32 * pikhq has Unicode, just not a monotype font which supports non-ASCII characters. :/
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04:48:18 * SimonRC decides that this one is quite humerous: http://www.newgrounds.com/portal/view/192135
04:48:29 <SimonRC> It makes a good point about typical RPG behaviour.
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17:42:29 <lament> why, hello there, lament
17:42:44 <lament> nice meeting you again
17:42:53 <lament> yeah, haven't seen you in a while, where have you been?
17:43:03 <lament> oh, you know, working, partying, playing guitar
17:43:12 <lament> ah, okay, i was doing the same :)
17:43:22 <lament> well, nice meeting you, i have to go now
17:43:25 <bsmntbombdood> mbpnvemkrglezyvglmnevxtblpdsgjldtpkvvprehvcbbrdbyvkusvjosngudqkqsudqavnefepebsdzxrlzujtbhejhdxhyigtslojngrfgkemagspjmiqfixfwmnwdbojgzuhaplhqemzumxlshqbsinkknzetcdccralnbaikfinecxlkkyutvtvwcablmjpjlehn
17:43:56 <lament> wait, has bsmntbombdood gone crazy or something?
17:44:01 <lament> yeah... it seems so...
17:47:53 <lament> although it's odd that it would have 13 'e' and only 3 'o'
17:48:20 <lament> but it doesn't appear that you just randomly typed it
17:51:18 * ihope plays either "Sweet Dreams" or They Might Be Giants
17:52:18 <lament> and he said i was crazy
17:52:36 <bsmntbombdood> i was looking for an encryption alogorithm that was simple enough to do with a pencil and paper
17:53:15 <lament> why not use the one from cryptonomicon?
17:58:51 <RodgerTheGreat> bsmntbombdood: I saw a simplified version of the enigma that's pretty easy to use
18:05:49 <ihope> I mean, it's not especially bad.
18:06:25 <RodgerTheGreat> ROT13 is *really* easy with a chart like this: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/2a/ROT13.png
18:07:02 <ihope> It's also really insecure.
18:08:34 <ihope> Use 7/37/216 as your private key.
18:08:50 <ihope> Except that that's not what a private key contains.
18:09:37 <lament> just invent your own, jeez!
18:12:33 <ihope> 259 (7*37) as modulus, 216 as totient, 13 as encryption exponent... uh, 1/13 mod 216 as decryption exponent :-P
18:17:01 <ihope> 133 as decryption exponent?
18:18:56 <ihope> So 2 encrypts to 2^13 = ((2^2*2)^2)^2*2 = 163.
18:20:16 <RodgerTheGreat> that reminds me of the four fours thing you guys were up to a couple months ago
18:25:32 <ihope> The four fours thing?
18:25:53 <ihope> Did it involve factoring 4444, by any chance? :-P
18:26:10 <RodgerTheGreat> trying to generate every constant from 1 to 100 by using four 4s and various operators
18:26:24 <ihope> Various operators?
18:27:21 <RodgerTheGreat> It was around the time we were playing around with dupdog, if you feel like searching the logs
18:28:20 <bsmntbombdood> i just spent the last 20 minutes doing key setup, and now it turns out i made a mistake
18:30:17 <pikhq> Are we allowed to consider stack operators?
18:30:52 <pikhq> For the 4444 thing.
18:30:57 <RodgerTheGreat> we weren't doing it that way, but it would be an interesting way to approach the problem again
18:31:18 <pikhq> Actually, that makes it kind of trivial to do.
18:31:39 <pikhq> 4 4/(dup for however many times you need)(+ for however many times you need)
18:31:40 <RodgerTheGreat> well, yeah- then you can just ignore some of the numbers
18:32:26 <RodgerTheGreat> we could do it with RPN, and then more easily compete for expression in the smallest number of symbols
18:34:48 <RodgerTheGreat> and the other requirement, as I remember, was that you *must* use exactly four 4s
18:36:25 <fizzie> I once did one block of DES with pen and paper. (Was visiting a place with no computars, and pretty bored.)
18:37:27 <fizzie> Don't remember very well. Some hours. And not very much paper, maybe two sheets.
18:38:26 <fizzie> Of course a DES block is 64 bits, so it's not very practical if you want to actually communicate something.
18:39:40 <RodgerTheGreat> assuming a 6-bit character (64 symbols), you could pull off about 10 characters, which is enough for *some* things
18:40:43 <RodgerTheGreat> bsmntbombdood: are one-time pads feasible for your situation? They're extremely effective for the amount of effort they require.
18:41:08 <fizzie> Oh, I had the spec (I think it was the actual FIPS standard) printed out with me. I did anticipate the "being bored" bit.
18:41:32 <bsmntbombdood> "i'm going to be bored...better bring the des spec!"
18:41:45 <fizzie> I was only going to read it, but...
18:43:02 <gnilor> I implemented a easy php brainfuck interpreted, because i needed one(and the one i found online was recursive), http://81.165.213.173:8080/~gnilor/bf.php .phps for source
18:43:18 <fizzie> I don't really remember if I completely finished it.
18:43:59 <gnilor> lament, yeah it recursively called itself for loops
18:44:01 <fizzie> Re one-time pads, I just wrote an Irssi script to apply one-time pads to queries, and exchanged half a CDful of randomness with a friend living in the next building. Extrapolating from logs since 2003, that should be enough to last until 2014 or so.
18:44:10 <gnilor> RodgerTheGreat, like any recusive descent parser
18:45:18 <RodgerTheGreat> hm. I guess that could work. I made a recursive equation parser once. It just didn't occur to me to do it that way with something that has side effects
18:45:33 <gnilor> bsmntbombdood, yeah it was called php-brainfuck or something.. but i just didn't like that ..keeping DoS in mind
18:45:35 <RodgerTheGreat> yeah, that would be pretty easy to code, now that I think about it
18:46:32 <gnilor> it's bf it's always easy to code :)
18:46:51 <gnilor> one of the reasons why i picked it :)
18:48:29 <fizzie> I usually implement a Befunge interpreter in every new language I come across.
18:48:49 <gnilor> fizzie, isn't befunge 2D .. well i pass :)
18:48:51 <lament> not sure why it makes sense to use a php-based brainfuck interpreter as opposed to some nice fast C one
18:48:55 <RodgerTheGreat> BF is one of my favorite "getting used to the language" programs
18:49:27 <gnilor> lament i actually have a use for it :)
18:54:35 <gnilor> basically i just needed a very safe way, for some form of scripting from the user to be executed server side
18:55:51 <RodgerTheGreat> once, I added BF scripting support to one of my IRC-bots because it was the easiest "scripting language" I could think of to implement.
18:57:20 <gnilor> yeah, and you can get it 100% secure, that's a plus
18:57:40 <bsmntbombdood> it's hardly usefull as a scripting language though
18:58:42 <gnilor> bsmntbombdood, you put a string in, you get a string out ... that's what an irc bot is all about isn't it..
18:58:59 <gnilor> and bf is turing complete .. so it can do any operation on the strings ..
19:00:38 <RodgerTheGreat> yeah, I built a system around it for defining a command. Users set a prefix "@", "!do ", whatever, and then their program. If they say something that starts with the prefix, the rest of the line counts as input, and then the program runs
19:05:32 <gnilor> you could do some var replacing, in the in/output too to have a more flexible system .. possibilities are endless :)
19:14:25 <ihope> You should have used assembler with mandatory security proofs!
19:14:34 <ihope> (I'm all about security proofs lately, aren't I?)
19:21:20 <pikhq> Sure one could have an IRC bot in Brainfuck. . .
19:22:34 <pikhq> I just feel sorry for whoever writes it in raw Brainfuck.
19:24:21 <lament> you'd need some kind of a socket layer above it.
19:24:32 <lament> and an event layer presumably
19:25:02 <lament> yes, but no longer "raw brainfuck"
19:25:15 <lament> depends on how thick the layer is :)
19:26:07 <pikhq> Screw that; just make sure stdin is blocking.
19:28:33 <gnilor> i feel a bet coming on :) first one to writ it in less that 50 000 bf bytes? :D
19:33:32 <pikhq> I'd do so, except that the language is now known as PEBBLE.
19:43:22 <gnilor> heh i actually had a bug in my bf code :)
19:47:22 <gnilor> i had if (A && B) somewhere and it should have been if (B && A)
19:48:42 <pikhq> They're equivalent, except for short-circuting.
19:50:12 <gnilor> well i was counting on short-circuting
20:15:07 <pikhq> Who here thinks I'm crazy for wanting to do a game in PEBBLE?
20:18:40 <RodgerTheGreat> I have some experience coding text-based games of various sorts
20:23:16 <RodgerTheGreat> I'm guessing a good first step would be extending the pebble libraries to provide more string manipulation functions
20:26:37 <ihope> I mean, it's not VERY crazy.
20:26:54 <pikhq> Something along the lines of LostKingdom.
20:27:22 <pikhq> The parser, I think, would be simple, like LostKingdom's.
20:27:50 <RodgerTheGreat> excellent- I have done some study of the BFBASIC behind that game- I think I have a handle on what's necessary to build something similar in BF
20:28:15 <RodgerTheGreat> and as you've all seen from PocketUniverse, I know a thing or two about building MUDs
20:29:02 <pikhq> And, since you've got a Nonlogic account, it'd be simple for me to set up an SVN repo for the two of us to work on this on.
20:31:03 <pikhq> Or I could just do the insane route and write it all myself. :p
20:33:23 <RodgerTheGreat> I get the sense you'll have more satisfaction from it that way. However, I will be more than happy to provide assistance and advice when you so desire it.
21:24:09 <RodgerTheGreat> #Esoteric and ##Nonlogic have very different atmospheres, but I feel they also have a great deal of commonality
21:25:42 <RodgerTheGreat> I dunno, a little more "structured", a little more immediate.
21:26:14 <RodgerTheGreat> 'course, it's kinda cool that in #Esoteric it's not unusual for a conversation to occur over several hours or an entire afternoon
21:26:26 <RodgerTheGreat> in ##Nonlogic, most people expect you to be there when you talk to them
21:30:16 -!- gnilor has left (?).
21:31:07 <RodgerTheGreat> philosophical debates here have less of a tendency to become flamewars here, too.
21:39:59 <lament> what's the topic of nonlogic?
21:40:29 <ihope> === ##nonlogic 32 Welcome to ##nonlogic | Reinventing the wheel for fun | If you are interested in an account, please read the tour: http://nonlogic.org/index.php?tour | For information about the Nonlogic TextCast, join ##nonlogic-textcast | "IRC Isn't a Dump Truck!" http://nonlogic.org/dump/
21:43:06 <lament> i mean conversation topic
21:43:19 <lament> what's its reason for existance
21:46:15 <pikhq> It's the chat room for Nonlogic.
21:58:53 <Sukoshi> Sorry, it had to be done :D
22:00:27 <Sukoshi> RodgerTheGreat: In this order: Studying my butt off for exams, summarily getting completely demotivated about schoolwork, hacking some electric projects, playing some games, starting some dev projects for the summer.
22:02:40 <RodgerTheGreat> I'm taking some summer courses up here at MTU, working on a couple games and other projects, and generally slowly decompressing from the frenetic pace of finals
22:03:05 <Sukoshi> All my projects this summer are Lisp projects. I do intend to take on one Java project and maybe a C project though.
22:03:30 <RodgerTheGreat> in two weeks I get to start a cryptography course- it should be a lot of fun and provide me with a lot of ideas for small coding projects
22:07:35 <RodgerTheGreat> then have a look at this: http://rodger.nonlogic.org/games/CRPG/
22:07:48 <RodgerTheGreat> it's kinda buggy at the moment, but I'm extremely pleased with it so far
22:08:23 <Sukoshi> My projects: A Lisp IRC Client that works on numerous graphical backends (one of which is Curses), A Lisp 2D Strategy RPG with an epic storyline, A Lisp IRC bot, a Java (?), a C (?).
22:09:37 <RodgerTheGreat> if you have any need for graphics for your RPG, look no further. Give me a week or two and I can whip up anything you want. :D
22:10:09 <Sukoshi> Hmm. Would you like to help with the story too?
22:10:17 <Sukoshi> (And you can help Lisp along too, if you know enough Lisp)
22:10:54 <Sukoshi> Today my goal is to make a rough mapper using some tilesets online (but make it open to any tileset, obviously) for some tilemaps.
22:11:09 <Sukoshi> SDL is the graphics library.
22:11:39 <Sukoshi> Size: Variable. Style: PNG, put in a large tile block.
22:11:40 <RodgerTheGreat> square, rectangular, isometric, 8x8, 16x16, 32x32, larger, smaller...
22:12:12 <Sukoshi> Well, I may or may not convert it to BMP.
22:12:45 <Sukoshi> Because LISPBUILDER-SDL-IMAGE does not work on CLISP for Mac.
22:13:11 <Sukoshi> (But it does with SBCL for Mac.)
22:17:51 <Sukoshi> I'm playing a bit with SDL and my sister.
22:17:58 <Sukoshi> (My sister being the more demanding of the two.)
22:20:08 <RodgerTheGreat> basically, a hangout for a bunch of renegade software and hardware hackers
22:22:52 <Sukoshi> It's what your mom is, lament.
22:23:00 <lament> RodgerTheGreat: that doesn't really explain anything.
22:23:18 <Sukoshi> Does my explanation help, lament ?
22:23:34 <RodgerTheGreat> lament: what kind of explanation are you asking for, then?
22:23:36 <pikhq> Bunch of coders together, with a shell server to bind them.
22:23:45 <Sukoshi> In the darkness bind them, pikhq.
22:24:00 <pikhq> A Debian terminal is pretty dark, after all.
22:24:04 <Sukoshi> One shell to rule them all, and in the darkness bind them -- Old UNIX mainframes.
22:24:06 <lament> well, that there's a shell server helps.
22:24:14 <lament> So it's a channel for people who know each other outside IRC?
22:24:36 <lament> do you see now that the explanation wasn't satisfactory? :)
22:24:37 <pikhq> Although the founders, near as I can tell, are at college together.
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22:29:09 <poiuy_qwert> how can i upload something to the files archive?
22:29:48 <Sukoshi> Yeah. You can be the hippy outside who wants to abolish college ;)
22:30:27 <RodgerTheGreat> Sukoshi: did you ever decide where you wanted to go for college? or at all?
22:31:56 <Sukoshi> RodgerTheGreat: I'm gonna be applying to MIT out of fluke, CalTech, Berkeley and a few other UCs, and Urbana-Champaign.
22:32:25 * pikhq still needs to figure out more places to apply. . .
22:32:40 <pikhq> MIT I will apply to, just in case they go mad there. . .
22:33:06 <pikhq> One will at least hope that a 30 on the ACT helps.
22:33:07 <Sukoshi> Well, UCs are local for me.
22:33:09 <RodgerTheGreat> Sukoshi, pikhq: there *is* always michigan tech- we're kinda out of the way, but it's a fantastic place to be
22:33:27 <Sukoshi> UCs are local, so that makes the barrier that much smaller.
22:33:51 <pikhq> University of California?
22:34:10 <Sukoshi> I'm guaranteed a UC of some middling-sort, but I'm shooting for the top, of course.
22:34:20 <pikhq> Well, if I aim for *local*, then I'd be hitting either Colorado University, or Colorado State. . .
22:34:32 <Sukoshi> Yeah, our local universities are quite nice.
22:34:49 <lament> "shooting for the top, of course"?
22:34:49 <pikhq> And I'm already guaranteed acceptance into those, in spite of my *horrible* grades.
22:38:19 <Sukoshi> Well, UC has a range of universities.
22:38:28 <Sukoshi> Why not shoot for the top, since they're local?
22:39:38 <lament> more nerd students who don't want to have fun
22:39:39 <Sukoshi> Heh. I have a ``better than everyone else, <expletive>'' ethic in me.
22:41:34 <lament> RodgerTheGreat: yes, universities like to overestimate their own importance.
22:41:37 * pikhq has a "Meh; just shove me somewhere I can learn something" ethic
22:43:26 <poiuy_qwert> how can i upload something to the esoteric files archive?
22:44:58 <RodgerTheGreat> back on the topic of tilesets, this is the (in progress) tileset for the game I'm currently working on: http://rodger.nonlogic.org/images/tiles.gif
22:45:33 <RodgerTheGreat> I've taken great care to maintain a resemblance to a certain gameboy game, for largely satirical purposes. :)
22:46:27 * Sukoshi does not recognize the game :P
22:47:36 <RodgerTheGreat> it involved teenaged protagonists wandering aimlessly through a sprawling world, collecting weird animals and trapping them in spherical storage devices.
22:48:51 <lament> what is the tileset for?
22:49:06 <Sukoshi> Ok, then my hunch was right.
22:49:19 <Sukoshi> (I still play it on my DS.)
22:49:22 <lament> RodgerTheGreat: i started reading at 14:43 local time
22:50:30 <RodgerTheGreat> essentially, it's going to be a comedic adventure game starring the main characters from a cartoon strip I draw for a campus newsletter
22:51:05 <RodgerTheGreat> http://www.nonlogic.org/dump/images/1182548991-title.png
22:59:04 <Sukoshi> Well now, ImageMagic obviously fails at producing BMPs.
22:59:32 <Sukoshi> Wow. It can convert SVG to PNG, and SVG to EPS, but not PNG to BMP.
22:59:41 <lament> BMP is not a format anybody uses.
23:00:10 <RodgerTheGreat> GIF and PNG are just as good for pixel art, though, and they're lower bandwidth
23:00:24 <Sukoshi> That means I have to download and compile SDL_Image.
23:02:32 <RodgerTheGreat> I meant, on a more macro sense. That problem seemed fairly clear.
23:03:12 <Sukoshi> I'm gonna set up a Lisp mapper, and if I have time, I'll start on a rough inspector.
23:04:21 <RodgerTheGreat> when I started writing my game engine in Java, I found it immensely useful to build modular classes for storing and drawing map data. Map editors necessarily share a *lot* of basic code
23:04:48 <Sukoshi> But there's a difference in coding style in Lisp and Java (and any other static language).
23:05:04 <Sukoshi> The modularity is much more built into Lisp.
23:05:29 <Sukoshi> I'm gonna implement the mapper in the game too, so that way, I can edit on the fly.
23:05:38 <Sukoshi> Which is not very hard, thanks to Lisp.
23:05:38 <RodgerTheGreat> in Java, it's pretty much dictated by how careful you are with your object oriented design
23:05:55 <Sukoshi> And inspectors alwayz r00l.
23:06:12 <Sukoshi> Inpsectors must be pretty difficult to code in static languages.
23:06:25 <RodgerTheGreat> the main advantage I had to keeping mine separate was that breaking one accidentally still left me able to work on the other when I became frustrated
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23:06:53 <RodgerTheGreat> what exactly do you mean by "inspector"? Unit testing?
23:07:07 <Sukoshi> It's something which lets you play around with objects in real time.
23:07:23 <Sukoshi> Yeah, except it is lots of fun.
23:07:42 <Sukoshi> For example: You open the inspector, select your main character, and then edit some of his stats to test some edge cases in the battle system.
23:08:10 <RodgerTheGreat> short-circuiting the compile-test-edit-repeat workflow
23:08:23 <Sukoshi> Lisp never works like that.
23:08:42 <RodgerTheGreat> some of this stems from the fact that you're using an interpreted language, versus my compiled one
23:08:45 <Sukoshi> Lisp's workflow is code-test-edit-(if you need to recode in an editor).
23:08:54 <Sukoshi> Nah. Lisp is JIT compiled.
23:09:03 <Sukoshi> That's what makes it so incredible :)
23:09:37 <RodgerTheGreat> JIT is effectively the same as interpreted from a workflow perspective- it's just an abstraction layer that makes things more zippy
23:10:50 <Sukoshi> That's my main gripe about Java. Why did Sun ditch Smalltalk for Java?
23:10:57 <Sukoshi> I mean, if you have a VM, put it to good use by making it dynamic.
23:11:32 <RodgerTheGreat> they probably wanted to make Java "more like C++", only do it properly.
23:11:34 <Sukoshi> I think the answer there lies more in politics and GET-OFF-MY-LAWN-ness than anything else.
23:11:52 <oerjan> how do you run untrusted code safely in Smalltalk?
23:12:22 <Sukoshi> oerjan: Unlike Lisp, Smalltalk has no top-level forms. So you can branch off the state of the VM to run code.
23:12:42 <Sukoshi> Or, more approriately, Stack unwind.
23:15:54 <RodgerTheGreat> so, Sukoshi- if you could give me some direction as to what you're looking for, graphically, I could probably find time in the next few days to pound out some sprites and tiles for you
23:16:14 <Sukoshi> RodgerTheGreat: Hmm... Zelda-ish?
23:18:10 <RodgerTheGreat> I made this way back in the day for a DarkBASIC game of mine: http://rodger.nonlogic.org/images/ground.bmp
23:18:46 <Sukoshi> Maybe a bit more luminosity on the tiles, though?
23:19:08 <RodgerTheGreat> naturally- I like to think I've become a little better over the years. ;)
23:20:20 <RodgerTheGreat> anything more specific, or should I just kinda wing it?
23:23:34 <Sukoshi> Oooh. This new version of SDL is a lot more speedy.
23:23:48 <Sukoshi> Well, would you mind listening to the story mishmash?
23:23:59 <Sukoshi> (It's not even a concept yet, because I don't have it congealed enough.)
23:25:10 <Sukoshi> So the initial setting is that the main character's Ham's (the equivalent to a medieval demense) Noble has decided to enter the current war for throne succession.
23:26:03 <Sukoshi> So, basically, the intro starts out with a few skirmishes (I may make this tactical style, but right now I'm leaning to Zelda-ish strategy style).
23:26:39 <Sukoshi> Then in the battle heat, the main character suddenly gets a vision, of two groups of people, fighting each other in a war much like this. And he wonders the significance.
23:27:13 <Sukoshi> Yeah, that's all I have concrete 'till now :P. But the story involves world travelling, layers of manipulation, an old race, etc.
23:27:55 <Sukoshi> Similar, except you have to add Tactics, and Katherine Kerr's novels to the mix.
23:28:27 <Sukoshi> (The civil war in his mind is a civil war between his race, and the companions to his race, these companions not anymore present in his ``world''.)
23:29:05 <RodgerTheGreat> so, what are you looking for in terms of artistic style and the feel of the setting?
23:29:08 <Sukoshi> Portions of the civil war were influenced by the splinter race (in a much better technological state) to wreak revenge upon their old brethren.
23:29:55 <Sukoshi> Well -- two tilesets. One is medieval gothic finery, and the other is modern (not too techy) SF.
23:33:10 <Sukoshi> One half Old-Christian-Robe style, the rest should be old Arab robe style.
23:33:31 <Sukoshi> Other than that ... nothing too descrptive on the body features.
23:34:06 * RodgerTheGreat cracks his knuckles and searches for his drawin' stick
23:40:45 <RodgerTheGreat> well, I'll be back in a bit, and then I'll devote a little time to coming up with a tiling model
23:46:15 <Sukoshi> Do you know offhand the size of an RPG Maker tile?