00:28:09 <lament> man, spanish is fucked up
00:49:08 <bsmntbombdood> mit-scheme needs to not crash when printing an infinite list
00:49:37 <lament> don't print infinite lists.
00:49:41 <lament> and don't use mit-scheme :)
00:50:00 <SimonRC> print them with Common Lisp, which can handle crap like that
00:50:17 <SimonRC> it has syntax for arbitrary graphs
00:57:31 <ihope> Spanish is fucked up?
00:57:48 <ihope> Don't worry; I doubt
00:57:52 <ihope> "alsastalaviaststa" is actually a real word.
00:58:51 <pikhq> And so is "antidisestablishmentarianism".
00:59:46 <fizzie> MzScheme outputs infinite lists (any sorts, not just simple circular) fine; but I don't think it _needs_ to not crash: R5RS only mandates that list? must not get confused by them, and mit-scheme (according to docs) gets that part right.
01:05:07 <ihope> I doubt it's a real word, and so is that?
01:13:00 <SimonRC> Well, it's 01:09, so time for bed.
01:13:51 <ihope> You clearly have never heard of stimulants!
01:15:16 <ihope> Dopamine reuptake inhibitors! Dopamine releasers! MAO inhibitors! Norepinephrine reuptake inhibitors! Norepinephrine releasers! GABA antagonists! Methlyxanthines!
01:16:11 <ihope> Methylenedioxymethamphetamine might be the one that works the best because it has the longest name.
01:16:51 <ihope> But it probably isn't.
01:19:05 <lament> ihope: some varieties of spanish use one pronoun for men, one for things of masculine gender and another for everything feminine (people and things alike)
01:26:02 <ihope> Naturally, Wikipedia would have a section about acetylcholinesterase in popular culture.
01:26:57 * ihope looks for "popular culture in popular culture"
01:27:24 <RodgerTheGreat> did you know that RAID functions by being an Acetylcholinesterase inhibitor?
02:47:28 <ihope> Redundant array of independent disks?
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03:10:31 <pikhq> I'd imagine that a redundant array of independent disks could inhibit acetylcholinesterase. . . Because you can't easily erase a RAID! (cue groans)
03:26:25 <pikhq> What, not even a groan?
03:31:48 <RodgerTheGreat> I think I had one going for a bit, but it turned out to be a burp
03:45:18 <ihope__> You could also undergo gene therapy to give yourself fatal familial insomnia.
03:45:27 <ihope__> I wouldn't recommend it. Dying from lack of sleep is not fun.
03:45:28 <bsmntbombdood> cheap and legal and and easy to pronounce name and tolerable side effects
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03:46:00 <ihope> What, "dope" isn't easy to pronounce?
03:46:07 <ihope> It can even refer to three different drugs!
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16:30:32 <oklopol> <SimonRC> challenge: make an esolang in which (0 can be used for quoting code and also for grouping in expressions, because those two concepts are the same thing <<< oklotalk
16:40:05 <oklopol> oklotalk has [], () and {} with different meanings, but their semantics overlap, you can simulate either [] or {} with () in most cases
16:47:38 <ihope> Sounds like something that needs wikiing.
16:53:45 <oklopol> my language i'm speccing up on a daily basis now
16:54:25 <oklopol> still a bit under construction, but i did make a partial parser a few days ago
16:54:56 <oklopol> well, a parser that works for legal code
16:55:19 <oklopol> everything is legal, i mean code that's _very_ legal
17:06:39 * ihope tosses together a programming language that's riddled with symbols
17:07:33 <ihope> Okay, not quite riddled, yet.
17:07:48 <ihope> Only * and > so far.
17:08:14 <oerjan> it could still be riddled with them.
17:08:29 <ihope> Er, those are the only ones that represent values.
17:08:54 <oerjan> oklopol: aren't even brackets required to match?
17:10:47 <oklopol> it's a bit complicated to explain, though very logical once you grasp it
17:11:16 <oklopol> i wanted to make unmatching brackets possible because that was the only thing making pieces of code illegal
17:12:45 <ihope> So how does this non-matched bracket thing work?
17:15:32 <oklopol> hmm... i gotta think a bit to get it into words
17:15:54 <oklopol> which, i admit, is a sign of me not having proved it can actually work like i intended
17:16:13 * ihope ties up :, = and ;
17:17:08 <ihope> My goal for my little language is to be able to express proofs that two expressions are equivalent.
17:17:49 <ihope> I think that means first-order logic is necessary.
17:17:53 <lament> not particularly possible in the general case
17:18:34 <ihope> Is there a proof that no formal system of proof can express all proofs of equivalence?
17:18:50 <ihope> Rather, no set of axioms?
17:18:59 <ihope> I dunno. Probably :-P
17:19:12 <lament> goedel is about proving theorems
17:19:12 <ihope> I'll ask in #math.
17:19:24 <lament> which is the same as proving that a statement is equivalent to True
17:24:28 <lament> from the wiki: "Most programming languages do allow for arbitrary effects at arbitrary points. In the imperative paradigm, for example, all this really means is that there is no restriction on the order that instructions are specified to be executed in."
17:24:32 <lament> what the hell does that mean?
17:31:49 <ihope> Luckily, all the equivalence-of-expressions I want is the fact that it's impossible to produce a type error by applying a function to an argument.
17:34:03 <lament> goedel's theorem is for systems complex enough to express arithmetic
17:34:13 <lament> if your type system is complex enough to express arithmetic, you're fucked
17:34:46 <ihope> Type system complex enough to express arithmetic...
17:35:07 <ihope> Does the fact that types can contain any value help?
17:38:00 <oklopol> i'll up it, see if you find any sense in it
17:39:11 <oklopol> http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p213111455.txt
17:39:20 <oklopol> also tell me if that has a bug or smth
17:40:54 <oklopol> "by the type by the opening bracket."
17:43:14 <oklopol> http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p312111331.txt
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18:38:25 <oerjan> oklopol: ok i think it make sense except that you have reversed low/high precedence.
18:38:51 <oerjan> (from their usual meaning)
18:55:46 <oklopol> okay, i didn't not think that through, i really tried putting them in the more sensible order :)
18:55:47 <oklopol> http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p564212545.txt
19:06:28 <ihope> I suddenly want to write a parser for it.
19:06:42 <ihope> Could be an interesting challenge. :-)
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19:08:37 <oklopol> ihope: i can tell you the tokenizing rules
19:09:07 <oklopol> also, okenization is an important part of parsing oklotalk
19:09:17 <oklopol> that has simple rules as well
19:09:44 <oklopol> okenization is my term for "whuz applied to what"
19:10:23 <oklopol> like, 5 + 4 is (+ 5 4), while 5 3 4 is ´(5 3 4)
19:10:41 <oklopol> the parenthesis ones being lisp of course
19:11:34 <oklopol> the thing _you_ were talking about some time ago
19:11:35 <ihope> It looks like neither ` nor '.
19:11:58 <oklopol> but doesn't matter, lisp has just one '
19:12:08 <lament> what oklopol had was not ascii
19:12:24 <lament> it's like ` but going the other way
19:12:50 <oklopol> it's an important part of oklotalk tokenization :)
19:13:00 <ihope> `, ' and that are used in oklotalk?
19:13:05 <lament> i'm not a fan of langs that require the use of characters i can't even type
19:13:40 <oklopol> lament: the key you do ` with, doesn't it give you ´?
19:13:50 <oklopol> it does on all my keyboards
19:14:04 <oklopol> and it's not used in finnish so i don't think that's the reason
19:14:05 <ihope> All your keyboards have ´ under ~?
19:14:19 <oklopol> they have a special button for ´
19:14:22 <lament> oklopol: ` with no shift, ~ with shift
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19:15:04 <oklopol> well, don't care, the choise of characters is not important
19:15:23 <ihope> Do you know if there are any ASCII characters you're not using?
19:15:32 <ihope> (Is there a rough oklotalk spec anywhere?)
19:15:39 <oklopol> ihope: that was just the bracket rules, there are other ways to change scoping :)
19:16:17 <ihope> I know that without much specification, I can't give much feedback.
19:16:17 <oklopol> ihope: on my comp, but it's partly outdated and too long for me to quickly fix it now
19:17:01 <ihope> Well, a parser can be written even if you have no idea what the result is supposed to do.
19:17:22 <oklopol> i could make a parsing spec, indeed
19:17:30 <ihope> I could write up a parser in Haskell.
19:18:18 <oklopol> i'll make one now, i'll make a python parser for it, but you prolly get it finished before me
19:18:49 <ihope> Of course, it's probably best to make the whole interpreter/compiler in one language.
19:19:32 <oklopol> wonder if i could make anything in haskell
19:19:41 <lament> no. You're not smart enough.
19:19:43 <ihope> I wonder if I could make anything in Python...
19:19:45 <oklopol> made a thue interpreter... my first and only haskell program :DD
19:20:01 <ihope> Python is similar enough to Haskell that I could do it, I believe.
19:20:16 <oklopol> lament: my thoughts exactly, it's just i've surprised myself a few times
19:20:23 <ihope> It might look totally un-Python, though. :-)
19:20:52 <oklopol> python is nice, i just don't like the fact it has no scoping really
19:21:12 <oklopol> well okay it has, but it like sucks ass
19:21:54 <oklopol> if you have a function inside another function, the inner function does not have access to the outer one
19:22:17 <ihope> oklopol: now, you said Finnish?
19:22:26 <oklopol> what i said was in finnish?
19:22:44 <ihope> You mentioned Finnish keyboards, or something.
19:22:56 <lament> oklopol: it's not a problem in practice.
19:23:10 <oklopol> we have umlaut where you have `
19:23:42 <oklopol> because i'm stupid, probably
19:24:02 <lament> inner functions are unpythonic
19:24:10 <ihope> Do you speak Finnish, then?
19:24:55 <ihope> (Should I just ask if English isn't your first language and point out your error? :-P)
19:26:03 <oklopol> it's not my first language
19:26:21 <lament> is english anybody's first language?
19:27:02 <oklopol> hmm... actually i might be wrong about you being american
19:27:10 <lament> ihope: do you speak any other languages?
19:27:22 <ihope> I'm learning Spanish and have looked at Japanese.
19:27:31 <ihope> bsmntbombdood: what about lambda calculus?
19:27:32 <oklopol> ihope: will you tell me my error?
19:27:43 <lament> the nice thing about NOT having english as your first language
19:27:47 <lament> is that you're gonna learn english anyway
19:27:53 <lament> so you will know two languages
19:28:23 <ihope> oklopol: you said that Python had no scoping, then you said "okay, it has". That should be "okay, it does", since "has" isn't an auxiliary verb here.
19:28:55 <ihope> (Isn't it wonderful how many things in English require auxiliary verbs?)
19:29:26 <lament> ihope: i don't think your explanation is correct
19:29:35 <ihope> With auxiliary verbs?
19:30:12 <lament> ihope: or rather, you say "has" isn't an auxilary verb, but you don't explain why there should be an auxilary verb there.
19:30:26 <oklopol> ihope: the reason that happened was i was actually going to write how it has and what, but couldn't phrase it well enough
19:31:09 <ihope> lament: same reason we need to say "Did you eat lunch yet?" rather than "Ate you lunch yet"?
19:31:36 <lament> ihope: no, it's not the same reason.
19:31:48 <lament> ihope: In that sentence you need the auxilary verb because that's how you form questions.
19:32:05 <ihope> I can't say "that's the way it is" for this, too?
19:32:10 <lament> oklopol's statement wasn't a question.
19:32:24 <oerjan> it's because the verb itself is stressed, not?
19:32:53 <lament> oh, i'm pretty sure you can understand it.
19:32:58 <SimonRC> english auxiliaries are fucked up
19:33:02 <oklopol> ihope: can you use too in a negative sentence like that?
19:33:12 <lament> oklopol: no, he can't.
19:33:30 <SimonRC> WTF are can, could, should, would, etc anyway?
19:33:58 <ihope> "I know this is true. Are you saying that this isn't true too?"
19:34:17 <lament> ihope: "too" is ungrammatical
19:34:36 <oklopol> i'd say "either" would be even more wrong.
19:34:49 <SimonRC> lament: they sometimes don't work like verbs
19:34:56 <SimonRC> and they don't compose properly
19:35:02 <lament> SimonRC: then think of them as mood markers
19:35:02 <ihope> lament: if the first sentence were "I know this isn't true", then it'd be either, but isn't it "too" when you say that it is true?
19:35:17 <oklopol> ihope: or perhaps "as well"?
19:35:40 <oklopol> i'd say "too" doesn't, but i guess you make the language.
19:35:44 <lament> ihope: are you parsing it as "are you saying that [this isn't true] too?"
19:36:02 <lament> ihope: i'm parsing it as "are you saying that this [isn't true too]" which is ungrammatical
19:36:04 <ihope> Are you saying that [this isn't true too]?
19:36:47 <lament> seems 'too' can only be applied to positive statements
19:37:01 <lament> john has an apple and i have one too
19:37:02 <ihope> "Too", as far as I know, is used whenever some *other* statement is positive.
19:37:08 <lament> john doesn't have any apples and i don't have any either
19:37:22 <ihope> John has an apple but I don't have one too.
19:37:42 <lament> i'm very sure that's ungrammatical
19:38:25 <ihope> I guess I'm thinking of "to have one too" as a form of "to have one" that's used when someone else has one, and then I'm just negating it.
19:38:27 <lament> grammatical: john has an apple but i don't have one.
19:38:29 <oklopol> i'd say that latter one is right
19:39:35 <lament> you can only use 'too' when both statements agree with each other
19:39:41 <lament> too indicates the agreement between them
19:39:49 <lament> john has it, i have it too
19:40:03 <lament> same with either, but for negative statements
19:40:25 <bsmntbombdood> "john has an apple but i don't have one too" is wrong because it feels wrong
19:40:29 <lament> if one is positive and the other is negative, then there's no agreement, so you can't use "too" nor "either"
19:42:44 <ihope> Now, I think we were on about Python and Haskell and such.
19:43:00 <ihope> Python, Haskell, parsers, specs...
19:43:46 <ihope> Division of labor...
19:44:07 <ihope> But not Keynesianism.
19:44:13 <lament> yeah, yeah, you suck at english and that's all there is to it :)
19:44:47 <ihope> Yes, isn't it wonderful?
19:44:48 <oklopol> it's raining outside, i wanna go there
19:44:54 <SimonRC> lol America: # God hates the world // and all her people #, by the same people that brought you God Hates Fags http://my.break.com/media/view.aspx?ContentID=278059
19:47:59 <oklopol> by the way, it was a 30 minute job learning a deck of cards in order
19:48:12 <oklopol> and the pianist failed pretty bad
19:48:36 <ihope> Sounds like absurdist humor.
19:48:44 <ihope> Or is that surrealist humor?
19:49:20 <oklopol> i used to sing that piece in choir <3
19:49:36 <oklopol> i'm high on caffeine again
19:50:04 <ihope> Don't worry. If you do that often enough, you'll develop resistance to it.
19:50:13 <ihope> Unfortunately, resistance comes with addition.
19:51:14 <ihope> And by addition, I mean addiction.
19:51:20 <oklopol> mandatory to attain choir since i was on a music class
19:51:49 <oklopol> ihope: i won't get resistant since the high is psychological
19:53:38 <lament> what the hell is a "psychological high"?
19:53:47 <lament> "psychological addiction" i can understand
19:53:48 <ihope> If only that were true for the L-Dopa administered to catatonic patients...
19:53:57 <lament> "psychological high", not really
19:54:20 <lament> since caffeine obviously has physiological effects
19:54:39 <lament> unless you're drinking decaf coffee and your high is from the placebo effect
19:54:54 <ihope> Death is considered a physiological effect, right?
19:54:59 <oklopol> i can get pretty high without any substance.
19:55:17 * ihope ponders the phrase "your highness"
19:55:49 <oklopol> it's true caffeine has physiological effects, but it's highifying effect is minimal
19:56:17 <oklopol> i just get so excited from the fact it's my favorite poison i'm drinking i sometimes get a bit carried away
19:57:03 <ihope> Now, are you doing anything in the way of an oklotalk spec?
19:57:19 <SimonRC> oklopol: huh/ you memorised the order of a pack of cards?
19:58:18 <oklopol> ihope: trying, but people keep on talking :P
19:58:58 <ihope> lament: can you please kickban oklopol so that that spec will get written?
20:01:01 <oklopol> SimonRC: http://www.torrentz.com/87dbcdab1a1734730dad25b1fdaf4caf9edd4a06
20:06:26 <oklopol> that's also a pretty crucial char :)
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20:09:22 <oklopol> i've never seen a keyboard without these keys and don't know the ascii table by heart... i guess i should travel more and remember more
20:10:11 <ihope> ¤ isn't ASCII, no.
20:10:49 <ihope> Alphanumerics and `~!@#$%^&*()_+-={}|[]\:";'<>?,./
20:11:42 <ihope> Does your keyboard have all of ASCII?
20:11:47 <oklopol> okily, then i have to change my whole operator set or just have it not be ascii
20:12:37 <oklopol> those were random, not all
20:12:53 <ihope> Indeed, there certainly were duplicates.
20:13:09 <oklopol> yeah, there's about twice that
20:13:55 <SimonRC> oklopol: I don't care enough to download all that
20:14:44 <oklopol> well, it's a lot more if you don't do torrents of course
20:14:52 <oklopol> anyway, that's a book i read.
20:18:07 <oklopol> heh, 50000 steps to solve "world's hardest sudoku" with brute force
20:18:28 <oklopol> 841258 steps to solve a random sudoku i solved by hand in 10 minutes
20:19:06 <ihope> I take it you're using some sort of program to do that.
20:19:35 <oerjan> no, no, it's a trick from that book...
20:19:51 <ihope> (Also, people really don't know what they're missing with, say, 9x9 sudokus.)
20:20:07 <ihope> (...Okay, they probably know that they're missing large headaches.)
20:20:12 <lament> i know what i'm missing _without_ sudokus
20:20:55 <ihope> Hmm... by "with" I apparently meant "in".
20:20:59 <ihope> Or something like that.
20:21:44 <oklopol> 16x16 sudokus can be bruted as well
20:22:03 <oklopol> however, even the easiest 25x25 will take forever... never managed to finish one
20:22:34 <ihope> Try implementing... um, some certain algorithm.
20:23:48 <oklopol> http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p553546433.txt
20:24:09 <oklopol> i have an algorithm that generalized sudokus... also solves the checkers problem
20:24:16 <ihope> Say, have you tried brute-forcing http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Sudoku_puzzle_hard_for_brute_force.jpg?
20:24:23 <oklopol> that i made one night because i was bored
20:24:48 <ihope> Dancing Links is the algorithm I mean.
20:25:44 <lament> looks like wikipedia is mostly down
20:28:34 <oklopol> hmm, i'm not gonna try and understand that... i'm pretty sure it's the same i invented myself
20:29:07 <ihope> What's probably the same as you invented yourself?
20:29:52 <oklopol> i mean, pretty much the same, prolly a bit better
20:30:18 <oklopol> it would take me an hour to understand how it works
20:31:05 <ihope> Well, Dancing Links is pretty efficient from what I can tell.
20:32:02 <oklopol> if you like, explain it to me in layman's terms
20:32:21 <ihope> I currently don't know the gist of it any better than you do :-)
20:32:56 <ihope> I know that it's a modified version of an algorithm that involves a few steps.
20:33:06 <ihope> (As opposed to those algorithms that don't require any steps at all.)
20:34:46 <ihope> Dancing Links probably also involves steps.
20:34:55 <oklopol> i don't understand the thing it says there about doubly linked lists.
20:35:15 <ihope> Well, it says to read the article on Algorithm X first.
20:35:35 <oklopol> heh, i guess i shouldn't have assumed _i_ don't need to read it
20:35:47 <lament> esoteric - "i so erect"
20:35:57 <lament> esoteric - "core site"
20:37:37 -!- lament has set topic: The core site for esoteric programming language design and deployment - map: http://www.frappr.com/esolang - forum: http://esolangs.org/forum/ - EgoBot: !help - wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/ - logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ or http://www.ircbrowse.com/cdates.html?channel=esoteric - Pastebin: http://pastebin.ca/ - Here be cannibals. (bsmntbombdood has been eaten.).
20:40:12 <oklopol> lament: did you do that manually?
20:41:25 <oklopol> hardest word to anagramize i know is "niklas nordmann", unfortunately i've only searched finnish ones
20:46:05 <ihope> Internet Anagram Server = I, Rearrangement Servant
20:46:26 <ihope> Nice way to advertise :-)
21:12:05 <oklopol> ihope: would you have wanted a bnf?
21:12:34 <oklopol> i wrote something... never shown a spec to anyone, don't know if this one makes any sense :P
21:14:14 <oklopol> http://vjn.fi/mb/index.php
21:14:35 <oklopol> (that bin has never been tried and is under construction, sorry :P)
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21:23:46 <oklopol> i've always wanted to learn that
21:31:59 <oklopol> guess i'll go outside, be back in a few hours
21:35:30 <ihope> oklopol: oh, it's not really that important.
21:41:44 -!- jix_ has quit ("CommandQ").
21:41:53 <ihope> Backslash makes a decimal number, you say? How does that work?
21:42:15 <ihope> (Wait, I'm doing this in Haskell. Um... that won't result in any deaths, will it?)
21:43:55 <ihope> And what should I do with unmatched comment markers?
21:46:39 <ihope> And I don't get the scope splitting stuff.
21:51:26 * SimonRC recalls his first cookery lesson at school.
21:54:19 <SimonRC> we made beans on toast as the first lesson
21:54:37 * SimonRC recalls the time he made a pizza with a whole block of edam on it
22:01:07 <bsmntbombdood> Edam (Dutch Edammer) is a Dutch cheese that is traditionally sold as spheres with pale yellow interior and a coat of paraffin.
22:18:39 <ihope> Did somebody say poop plane?
22:30:51 <lament> btw omitting aux. verbs seems to be a somewhat common feature of informal english
22:41:17 <ihope> Or is that omitting the first word of a sentence because it's not that important?
22:51:01 <lament> looks like omitting the aux. verb specifically
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23:51:06 <bsmntbombdood> implementation of the OR macro: http://paste.lisp.org/display/43573