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00:07:51 <ihope_> Mommy, pikhq won't stay dead!
00:09:35 <pikhq> < ihope_'s mom> Tought.
00:10:39 <ihope_> <whisper>I'll give you a dollar if you stay dead until Dad gets home!</whisper>
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00:22:36 <GreaseMonkey> oklopol: a better windows 3.1 bootdisk: http://greasemonkey.nonlogic.org/w31boot.img
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00:25:26 <pikhq> GreaseMonkey: That is technically in violation of Nonlogic's policy.
00:34:19 <pikhq> (Nonlogic's policy states that you're not allowed to upload anything you don't have permission to. . . So, instructions would be okay, an actual disk wouldn't be (unless, of course, it's an open source/free software program ;)))
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00:53:06 * pikhq is damned impressed. . .
00:53:26 <pikhq> It's grammer is actually defined in YACC.
00:53:46 <ihope_> But does it make proper use of Broca's area?
00:54:49 <ihope_> This requires a search for 'broca lojban'.
00:55:06 <ihope_> oklopol: ask someone with Broca's aphasia.
00:58:12 <pikhq> So, you're asking whether people can actually speak it.
00:58:58 <SimonRC> Lojban grammar may look like the predicate calculus, but it is not logical
00:59:10 <SimonRC> if you want a proper logical language, try Ithkuil.
00:59:30 <SimonRC> if you want a proper logical language that you can pronounce, try Ilaksh, by the same author.
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01:00:07 <pikhq> It's more logical than C's syntax. . .
01:00:11 <SimonRC> the guy had to invent dozens ofnew names for all the new inflections he was creating
01:00:13 <pikhq> Of course, so's English. :p
01:00:31 <pikhq> Just talking about the new inflections.
01:01:10 <oerjan> then you need to use the talkaboutative case
01:01:12 <pikhq> I take it that it can't readily be expressed in IPA?
01:01:26 <pikhq> Inflections == grammer, not phonetics. :p
01:02:01 <SimonRC> IPA can handle it except for the bidental fricative.
01:02:11 <SimonRC> maybe I didn't mean inflections
01:02:44 <pikhq> Maybe my brain's even more confused than I thought.
01:04:01 <pikhq> No, my brain's perfectly fine.
01:04:07 <pikhq> You meant something else. . .
01:04:19 <pikhq> Like, say, "phonemes"?
01:04:34 <oerjan> never trust a brain that thinks it's perfectly fine.
01:05:23 <pikhq> I had to confirm it with an outside source, okay?
01:06:11 <oerjan> never trust an outside source to understand your brain!
01:06:18 <oerjan> plus, always be paranoid!
01:07:10 <pikhq> How do I know that you are lieing?
01:08:34 <ihope_> Wait, what was the lie?
01:09:09 <pikhq> "never trust an outside source"
01:10:15 <oerjan> that was _not_ my whole sentence.
01:10:26 <oerjan> you failed to understand my brain!
01:10:39 <pikhq> No, I intentionally misled you.
01:10:44 <pikhq> Your paranoia has failed you.
01:11:04 <oerjan> i was lying about the paranoid part.
01:13:53 <oklopol> is there a book on lojban, ithkuil or ilaksh?
01:14:34 <ihope_> Ilaksh is written in two dimensions.
01:14:37 <pikhq> The defining book is under the Creative Commons license. . .
01:14:40 <ihope_> I hope it's not SPOKEN in two dimensions.
01:14:55 <pikhq> http://www.lojban.org/tiki/tiki-index.php?page=Home+Page&bl
01:15:01 <oklopol> pikhq: what is creative commons?
01:15:17 <ihope_> I'm not up to having to say arbitrarily many things at the same time.
01:16:00 <pikhq> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creative_Commons Welcome to a free culture. ;)
01:18:02 <oklopol> (i just categorize that into open source)
01:19:18 <pikhq> The main difference between a free culture and a free software license is that a free culture license applies to *any* work.
01:20:10 <pikhq> Same principle, though.
01:20:37 <oklopol> http://qdb.us/13461 i find this one much better
01:21:03 <oklopol> i find it to be a better culture.
01:30:08 * pikhq goes to update his GPL versions. . .
01:34:05 <oklopol> maybe it's the most rational choise --------->
02:25:38 <GreaseMonkey> oklopol: http://greasemonkey.nonlogic.org/?render=xhtml11&page=tutorials_win31
02:26:00 <GreaseMonkey> if you can't find windows 3.1 anywhere, go to vetusware.com
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02:59:45 <toBogE> I AM TOBOGE, MASTER OF EVERYTHING TOBOGE!
03:02:24 <pikhq> I AM PIKHQ, MASTER OF PEBBLE! (now available in GPLv3!)
03:03:15 <toBogE> WHO CARES, I'M TOBOGE!
03:03:32 * pikhq shoves PEBBLE down your through
03:03:45 <toBogE> /me does not have a throat, pikhq
03:04:39 <toBogE> ~exec sys.stdout("I agree!")
03:05:20 <toBogE> ~exec self.raw("QUIT :Excess Flood")
03:05:21 -!- bsmnt_bot has quit ("Excess Flood").
03:05:25 -!- bsmnt_bot has joined.
03:06:00 <toBogE> ~exec exec "i=0\nwhile i<5:\n sys.stdout("I spammed.")\n i=i+1"
03:06:25 <toBogE> ~exec exec "i=0\nwhile i<5: sys.stdout("I spammed.")\n i=i+1"
03:06:47 <toBogE> ~exec sys.stdout(1+2j+3+4j)
03:07:09 <toBogE> Someone please say !irp Someone please repeat this request
03:07:11 <bsmntbombdood> ~exec self.ban(r".*125-238-35-151.broadband-telecom.global-gateway.net.nz.*")
03:07:16 <toBogE> Someone please say !irp Someone please repeat this request putting !irp in front of it
03:07:30 <immibis> !irp Someone please repeat this request putting !irp in front of it
03:07:30 <toBogE> Someone please repeat this request putting !irp in front of it
03:07:43 <immibis> !irp Someone please repeat this request putting !irp in front of it
03:07:46 <toBogE> Someone please repeat this request putting !irp in front of it
03:07:52 <immibis> Error: Don't_cause_infinite_loops_error
03:09:29 <toBogE> SORRY! I AM such AN IDIOT!
03:10:56 <toBogE> TOBOGE IS AN IDIOT! I AM AN IDIOT! DON'T YOU DARE TELL ME OTHERWISE!
03:12:24 <toBogE> i am not not a bot i mean
03:12:41 -!- immibis has left (?).
03:13:05 <toBogE> you meant me, right? not the bot? because the bot is ok it's just me thats an idiot.
03:13:39 <toBogE> respond using !raw PRIVMSG #toboge :MESSAGE
03:19:05 <pikhq> bsmntbombdood: BFM became PEBBLE.
03:19:36 <pikhq> PFUCK used to be called basm.
03:19:42 * pikhq wonders why you ask
03:20:34 <pikhq> PFUCK is a Brainfuck->C compiler written in PEBBLE.
03:20:35 <toBogE> PFUCK is not a Brainfuck->C compiler written in PEBBLE.
03:20:54 <pikhq> toBogE needs to be kicked.
03:21:03 <bsmntbombdood> i ask because someone came in here with something very similar to pebble
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03:28:35 <pikhq> He's got a nicer documentation, but mine's a good deal lower-level. . .
03:29:42 <pikhq> His reminds me more of bfcomp than of PEBBLE.
03:30:50 <pikhq> Also, I don't see any macros.
03:32:12 <pikhq> You lose the right to call a language even *similar* to PEBBLE without macros. ;)
03:34:26 <pikhq> http://students.ceid.upatras.gr/~asimakis/FBF.html is the language, for the logs' sake.
03:36:23 <pikhq> The compiler is *remarkably* less efficient, as well.
03:37:24 <pikhq> Unless you think a *row* of ++++'s and ---'s is a good way to do strings?
03:37:40 <pikhq> Mine's not the most efficient, but at least it's *sane*. . .
03:38:42 <pikhq> (mine writes them in the Brainfuck memory using wrapping, two-cell implementations of the constants)
03:39:36 <pikhq> Hmm. I should probably set up a way of doing output without writing strings into memory, and instead just using two cells. . .
03:39:41 <pikhq> Might be a bit cleaner.
03:41:25 * pikhq goes to implement stringout
03:53:38 <pikhq> If I can figure out where the bugs lay, it *will* be.
03:57:16 <pikhq> Actually, if it works right, it'll make PFUCK much shorter in Brainfuck.
03:58:45 <bsmntbombdood> i wonder how to space-effieciently print in string in brainfuck
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04:22:53 <pikhq> Down in character count by a hell of a lot. . .
04:34:29 <pikhq> And "Hello, World!" looks a hell of a lot cleaner.
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05:02:07 <pikhq> PFUCK now compiles LostKingdom in 0.172 seconds.
05:02:45 <pikhq> I've roughly halved compilation time for that. :D
05:03:21 <pikhq> Speed of the compiled code's not changed much. . .
05:04:05 <pikhq> It's fairly efficient for a compiler in Brainfuck, though.
05:06:31 <pikhq> There's only so much optimization you can do sanely in Brainfuck.
05:07:06 <pikhq> Isn't writing a compiler that *targets* Brainfuck insane enough?!?
05:07:20 <pikhq> Or writing an engine for an adventure game in Brainfuck?
05:07:35 <pikhq> (only an engine, since I have no idea what to put in the game yet)
05:07:47 <immibis> an engine in brainfuck? are you crazy?
05:08:02 <pikhq> immibis: Ever heard of LostKingdom?
05:08:03 <immibis> people actually write real programs in brainfuck?
05:09:10 <sp3tt> The game engine :D
05:09:43 <pikhq> I've not uploaded it, because it's, uh, still buggy. . .
05:10:24 <pikhq> Let me just finish switching the thing over to stringout, and I'll tar it up.
05:18:09 <pikhq> http://pikhq.nonlogic.org/game.tar.bz2 Incomplete and buggy, but it works.
05:18:45 <pikhq> Depends upon PEBBLE, and build.sh assumes the existence of pfuck. . .
05:19:25 <pikhq> And it could use some cleanup.
05:19:42 <pikhq> Preferably *before* I use it to write a full game.
05:20:18 <sp3tt> Haha, that's awesome!
05:20:41 <sp3tt> The world's first brainfuck mud, that would pwn.
05:21:07 <immibis> mud is multiplayer, pikhq. brainfuck doesn't have networking capabilities.
05:21:21 <pikhq> immibis: Not yet. :p
05:21:31 <immibis> MUD stands for "Multi-User Dungeon"
05:21:33 * pikhq can't pull up the page for LostKingdom. :(
05:21:46 <immibis> it could be the second interactive fiction game written in brainfuck though.
05:22:12 <sp3tt> I s'pose you could add networking.
05:22:27 <pikhq> immibis: Which is, of course, the idea.
05:22:36 <sp3tt> You could define something like @...
05:22:51 <pikhq> Part of it is to demonstrate PEBBLE, and part of it is sheer insanity.
05:23:18 <sp3tt> @ uses two arguments, ip-address and port... then everything up to the next @ is sent...
05:23:20 <pikhq> sp3tt: Or you could do something with a wrapper on I/O.
05:27:01 <pikhq> http://web.archive.org/web/20060904163623/http://jonripley.com/i-fiction/games/LostKingdomBF.html There we go.
05:29:24 * pikhq wonders what you think of his most recent bit of insanity
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07:46:43 <immibis> how would i go about making a new language which was an extension of brainfuck but has a ~ command which returns the pointer to cell 0?
07:47:47 <immibis> or is there some other way to return the pointer to cell 0 if you don't know where it is?
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09:21:11 <immibis> my Brainfuck-Asembler to Brainfuck compiler produced a Hello World file of over 5KB!
09:24:52 <GreaseMonkey> the only possible way is destructive and requires that < at cell 0 stays at cell 0
09:25:39 <GreaseMonkey> if you did skip - cell - skip - cell - skip - cell - ...
09:26:32 <fizzie> What happens in cell 0 stays in cell 0.
09:28:37 <immibis> what about setting cell 0 to some random value like -266 and going backwards until you find a cell with -266? if -266 is unlikely to be used then that would work
09:30:13 <immibis> or i could make my interpreter (and compiler) use another (non-standard) command which goes to cell 0.
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13:13:01 <Tritonio> if anybody knows any good links for the brainfuck language please submit them to dmoz.org/Computers/Programming/Languages/Brainfuck/
13:13:21 <Tritonio> I will review and add them today.
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13:54:38 <ihope_> ~eval self.combS = lambda x: lambda: lambda y: lambda: lambda z: lambda: x(z)()(y(z)())()
13:55:10 <ihope_> ~eval self.combK = lambda x: lambda: lambda y: lambda: x
13:55:24 <ihope_> ~eval self.combI = lambda x: lambda: x
13:55:57 <ihope_> ~eval self.combS(self.combI)()(self.combI)()(self.combS(self.combI)()(self.combI)())()
13:56:03 <bsmnt_bot> 0: 'self.handle_callback(message, m, i)', 0.00 seconds
13:56:16 <ihope_> ~eval sys.stdout(self.combS(self.combI)()(self.combI)()(self.combS(self.combI)()(self.combI)())())
13:56:31 <bsmnt_bot> 0: 'self.handle_callback(message, m, i)', 0.00 seconds
13:56:50 <oerjan> what's with the argumentless lambdas?
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14:31:02 <oerjan> i'll have 'inf, thank you
14:31:04 <ihope_> ~eval sys.stdout(self.combS)
14:32:01 <RodgerTheGreat> I just got back from my new cryptography class- it looks like it'll be a lot of fun
14:32:14 <RodgerTheGreat> loads of opportunities for little programming projects
14:32:24 <oerjan> well, if you can decipher it...
14:33:45 <ihope_> In the Haskell definition "x = x + 1", calling the x thunk calls the + thunk with x and 1, right?
14:33:50 <RodgerTheGreat> I was mildly frightened when the teacher started writing on the board, but then I'm like "oh, ok- set builder notation... equivalence operators... e for "encrypt", d for "decrypt", etc"
14:34:42 <ihope_> What about "x = (x +)"? I mean, besides the fact that it's a type error...
14:35:03 <ihope_> Calling the x thunk... returns something representing (x +), I guess.
14:35:03 <oerjan> (x +) is an abbreviation for (+) x
14:37:52 <oerjan> well, x = 1:x is well-typed
14:38:26 <ihope_> I was pondering thunks for functions.
14:38:43 <oerjan> i c, what about x = (1+) . x
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14:40:01 <oerjan> well, an evaluated function thunk can be thought of as a lambda expression in head normal form
14:40:44 <ihope__> Really, their thunks don't need to do anything at all--they can just return.
14:41:45 <oerjan> well, consider x = if (1<2) then (x+) else (x-)
14:42:18 <oerjan> there _is_ a requirement that it reduces to one of the branches.
14:43:12 <oerjan> so just because a thunk is of a function type doesn't mean it does no evaluation
14:43:24 <ihope__> Head normal form is when the function takes some values then immediately requires one of them, right?
14:43:54 <oerjan> weak head normal form, i mean
14:44:39 <ihope__> When its result is a constructor applied to other things?
14:45:11 <ihope__> Evaluated as far as seq requires, that is?
14:45:25 <oerjan> it means (\x -> something)
14:46:13 <oerjan> i.e. the function requires another argument before it can do anything
14:46:20 <oerjan> i guess that's what you said
14:46:36 <ihope__> . . . then immediately requires one of them?
14:47:22 <oerjan> for example, (\x -> undefined) is in WHNF.
14:47:36 <oerjan> so it doesn't have to be actually used.
14:48:16 <oerjan> i guess you can think of lambdas as the constructors of functions.
14:48:55 <ihope__> So does the fact that it's recursive make "x = if (1<2) then (x+) else (x-)" not WHNF?
14:49:14 <oerjan> the recursivity has nothing to do with it.
14:49:32 <oerjan> that's just a back pointer usually.
14:50:17 <oerjan> the relevant fact is that the right side _can_ be evaluated a bit without giving x arguments
14:50:59 <oerjan> and that it is not simply a constructor application.
14:53:00 <oerjan> e.g. x = \y -> 1 + x y is WHNF
14:53:17 <oerjan> (i think it's what x = (1+) . x would reduce to
14:54:14 <oerjan> er, maybe not exactly, but close enough.
14:54:54 <oerjan> the purity and referential transparency gives compilers quite a bit of leeway in how much to reduce when
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17:46:38 <ihope> lament: did you know you're the owner of #kilgame?
17:48:40 <lament> i've never been there in my life.
17:48:54 <ihope> Rather odd, isn't it?
17:50:18 <ihope> Oh, it's really not quite that odd.
17:50:45 <ihope> But it's yours for the taking, and I have to reboot.
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20:20:34 <pikhq> Any idea how to test to see if something is within '0
20:20:40 <pikhq> '...'9' in Brainfuck?
20:21:34 <lament> subtract '0'-1, check if non-zero, subtract 10, check if zero?
20:22:20 <lament> (i don't actually know how to check for zero in a sane fashion)
20:22:39 <lament> (also this won't work with signed memory)
20:23:05 <pikhq> I'm assumed unsigned wrapping in PEBBLE. . .
20:23:48 <pikhq> if(foo-=47)if(!(foo-=10))is_numeric
20:23:48 <lament> first solve the easier problem of checking for a specific character
20:24:04 <lament> then you can always just check for 10 specific characters :)
20:24:05 <pikhq> Well, *that's* easy in PEBBLE. . .
20:24:17 <pikhq> Just wondering if there's a saner way to do it.
20:24:36 <bsmnt_bot> SyntaxError: unexpected EOF while parsing
20:24:43 <lament> bsmnt_bot: you have no imagination
20:24:55 <lament> ~exec sys.stdout(sys.stdout)
20:24:56 <bsmnt_bot> <__main__.IRCFileWrapper instance at 0xb7c5fb0c>
20:25:20 <lament> ~exec sys.__stdout__.write("Where am I writing to?")
20:26:01 <oerjan> [-[-[-[-[-[-[-[-[-[-]>]>]>]>]>]>]>]>]>]>]
20:26:23 <oerjan> add a > in the innermost, too
20:26:36 <lament> bsmnt_bot: reassigning sys.stdout is ugly
20:26:36 <pikhq> oerjan: What's the purpose of the ">"s?
20:26:57 * pikhq tries to wrap his head around that
20:26:58 <lament> bsmntbombdood: because everybody expects it to be stdout.
20:27:04 <oerjan> to get it out of the way once it has subtracted the required number
20:27:55 <lament> bsmntbombdood: so? this is still unpythonic. Besides, it's clearly not the only stdout, otherwise you wouldn't need that __stdout__ thing.
20:28:21 <oerjan> anyway the idea is to never repeat a loop
20:28:22 <bsmntbombdood> you just have to differentiate between the channel and the terminal
20:28:23 <lament> if it _were_ the only stdout, you'd simply pipe the output.
20:28:31 <lament> bsmntbombdood: yes, the terminal is stdout, the channel isn't.
20:29:14 <pikhq> I could do the horrendously annoying subtract 1, boolnot, repeat bit. . . But that is *really* clunky.
20:29:20 <lament> bsmntbombdood: un UNIX, stdout is a fairly well-defined term that means the same thing to everybody. You're redefining its meaning.
20:29:46 <pikhq> I've got a shell that begs to differ.
20:29:49 <bsmntbombdood> printing to the terminal in an ~exec doesn't make any sense, printing to the channel does
20:29:52 <pikhq> echo "Foo" > stdout
20:30:06 <lament> bsmntbombdood: then why does printing not work?
20:30:07 <pikhq> There. We've changed the meaning of stdout.
20:30:24 <lament> bsmntbombdood: no, because what you're trying to do is unpythonic.
20:35:03 <bsmntbombdood> "print x" is supposed to be exactly the same as "print >> sys.stdout, x"
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20:45:56 <ihope> lament: it's un-Pythonic to... do what he's trying to do?
20:46:00 <ihope> I guess that's what you said.
20:46:53 <ihope> A "print" statement should always print to whatever the program's running from?
20:47:15 <ihope> I guess you sort of said that too.
20:48:19 <ihope> Knowing that "print" goes to the terminal is more useful than being able to use "print" to go somewhere else?
20:48:30 <pikhq> I think he more or less said that stdout redirection is unpythonic.
20:50:25 <oklopol> i never thought of python having an -ic.
20:50:50 <ihope> I guess languages do often have philosophy behind them.
20:52:07 <pikhq> Python is one of those languages.
20:52:45 <ihope> And I guess lambda has been considered to be un-Pythonic.
20:53:05 <ihope> I know that it's very Haskellic, however. :-)
20:54:43 <ihope> And very un-Unlambdaic.
20:58:19 <ihope> I want to create a language that fixes all of Haskell's problems.
20:58:28 <ihope> That requires finding problems with Haskell.
20:58:39 <pikhq> One of those problems is that Haskell is too unesoteric.
20:59:02 <oerjan> only if you use it naively.
20:59:29 <bsmntbombdood> "It is a logical impossibility to make a language more powerful by omitting features, no matter how bad they may be."
21:00:00 <oerjan> that is indeed something Haskell may be taken to disprove
21:00:28 <lament> bsmntbombdood: load of crap.
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21:01:39 <pikhq> bsmntbombdood: More powerful != better. :p
21:01:44 <ihope> Is it a good idea to hand a kid a loaded gun and tell them that if they pull the trigger, they might die, because doing that doesn't take away any of their options?
21:01:49 <bsmntbombdood> all real languages have exactly the same power, you could say
21:02:18 <ihope> Except C and such things. :-P
21:02:45 <ihope> I believe C requires finite memory, though it can be arbitrarily much.
21:03:17 <lament> i don't think C does any such thing.
21:03:20 <ihope> Every variable must have a pointer to it, and every pointer must be of the same finite size, no?
21:03:32 <bsmntbombdood> i think it would be appropriate to say it's a logical impossibility to make a languages more expressive by omitting features
21:03:43 <lament> ihope: what do you mean "every pointer must be of the same finite size"?
21:04:03 <lament> ihope: pointers do have a sizeof(), but does that mean there's a finite number of distinct pointers? The standard doesn't imply that.
21:04:19 <lament> or maybe it does, i've never actually read it, but who knows.
21:04:22 <ihope> So sizeof() can lie?
21:04:32 <lament> ihope: what do you mean lie?
21:05:05 <ihope> Doesn't sizeof(foo) = n mean there are 2^n possible distinct foos?
21:05:08 <lament> we'd need to read the appropriate chapter of the standard to be sure.
21:05:30 <oklopol> c standard doesn't specify any size
21:05:32 <lament> ihope: i doubt that specific conclusion is explicitly given in the standard.
21:05:41 <lament> ihope: it's just your intuition
21:06:13 <oerjan> just many people's intuition, in that case
21:06:21 <oklopol> hmm, actuallu a c program can be written that uses infinite memory
21:06:36 <lament> oerjan: intuition is irrelevant when talking about formal systems.
21:06:43 <oklopol> though when it's run, limits come in form of pointer sizes
21:09:36 <oklopol> c does not specify a limit for pointer sizes, but there must be one at runtime, because it can be checked
21:10:03 <ihope> Now write me a program that depends on there being finite memory. >:-)
21:10:36 <bsmntbombdood> i don't think anything says sizeof(void*) must be finite
21:11:01 <ihope> If you can't create a program that actually uses information in C, it's not Turing-complete.
21:11:13 <oklopol> i mean, what bsmntbombdood said
21:11:20 <pikhq> sizeof() isn't in bytes, it's in chars.
21:11:35 <lament> pikhq: ha, good point.
21:11:48 <pikhq> It's not in *bits*, not bytes.
21:11:54 <ihope> So you could have a 23-gigabyte character.
21:11:58 <lament> anyway i still don't think sizeof matters
21:12:08 <bsmntbombdood> C can compute any function that a implemented turing machine can compute
21:12:09 <pikhq> The C standard only specifies the minimum size.
21:12:19 <ihope> Implemented, yes :-)
21:12:20 <oklopol> ihope: or a bignum-sized char
21:12:34 <ihope> Bignums can get pretty big.
21:12:42 <oklopol> well, theoretically infinite
21:12:48 <lament> bsmntbombdood: so can SMETANA.
21:12:50 <oklopol> bsmntbombdood: i think it's interesting :D
21:12:51 <pikhq> A char could, in fact, be of unlimited size.
21:13:15 <lament> bsmntbombdood: or, to generalize, "so can a finite-state machine"
21:13:16 <pikhq> Although that'd *really* fuck with the POSIX standard, which requires that headers include the max char value.
21:20:55 <oklopol> lament: did you stop reading "a new kind of science"?
21:22:06 <lament> oklopol: i never started reading it.
21:23:10 <oklopol> did i confuse you with someone?
21:23:58 <oerjan> oklopol: i think perhaps Sukoshi.
21:24:15 <oklopol> i'll have to check the logzorz
21:25:00 <oerjan> i vaguely recall her talking about uploading it.
21:25:10 <oklopol> whoever uploaded the book for me, be highlighted, did you read it?
21:27:00 <oerjan> i also vaguely recall her talking about preferring to read the paper version.
21:27:22 <oerjan> anyway she's not here now.
21:29:01 <oklopol> that was a telepathic highlight
21:29:09 <oklopol> i'm pretty sure she heard it
21:29:33 <oklopol> is Sukoshi a she? i never get used to using that as a general case
21:29:59 <lament> "she's a he" doesn't sound very natural
21:31:25 <pikhq> Try, "'She' is male." or "'He' is female". ;)
21:31:41 <oerjan> you finnish have it easy with your gender-less pronouns!
21:32:17 <lament> in english, these days, using "they" is perfectly fine in most cases.
21:32:35 <oklopol> finnish has the least gender integrated in the language that i know of
21:32:36 <lament> although i suppose not when talking about a specific person with a known name.
21:33:31 <lament> I use a combination of 'they' and 'he' when i don't know the gender
21:33:46 <oklopol> well, there's just pronouns and noun genders, so i don't see how you could have less than finnish
21:33:52 <lament> ('he' is a gender-neutral pronoun in many cases)
21:34:28 <oklopol> she is supposedly gender neutral
21:34:40 <lament> oklopol: well, english doesn't have noun gender, but does have many gender-specific words
21:34:40 <oklopol> but i guess they're stoned
21:34:41 <oerjan> bsmntbombdood: it's the oppression of the patriarchy, obviously :)
21:35:09 <oklopol> finnish doesn't have gender spesific words, except for a few animals, just like that
21:35:23 <oklopol> actually, that's the only one i can think of :D
21:35:48 <oklopol> i mean, that's still in use
21:38:02 <lament> i like gender-specific stuff
21:38:32 <lament> could be worse, men and women could be speaking two different languages altogether like in some african (or was it australian?) tribes
21:38:58 <oklopol> coffee, caffeine, isn't -ine a feminine suffix?
21:39:04 <oklopol> anyway, gotta make some ->
21:39:46 <lament> oklopol: English doesn't have noun gender, so -ine is neither feminine nor masculine :)
21:39:48 <oerjan> i think -ine has many meanings
21:40:11 <lament> oklopol: the original latin suffix used in that construction is feminine.
21:40:13 <oklopol> heroine can mean a female hero?
21:40:36 <oklopol> that's my only example and i'm not even sure of it :D
21:40:50 <oerjan> regina is latin for queen
21:41:02 <lament> oklopol: heroine and caffeine have two different suffices.
21:41:18 <oerjan> otoh Dominus is latin for Lord
21:42:13 <lament> oklopol: heroine, female hero, is a greek word.
21:43:10 <oerjan> bsmntbombdood: a 19th century trademark
21:43:19 <lament> actually i might be wrong
21:43:28 <lament> hero is greek, but the suffix could still be latin
21:43:33 <oerjan> obviously inspired by "hero"
21:44:19 <lament> in russian, though, caffeine and heroine have two different suffices (the -ine in caffeine becomes masculine -in, and the -ine in heroine becomes feminine -ina)
21:44:42 <oerjan> and of course the word "Latin" itself contains an -in suffix.
21:44:42 <pikhq> English is perhaps the oddest language on the planet. . .
21:44:43 <lament> so i suspect they're not the same suffix
21:45:00 <oerjan> i think it may mean just "connected to"
21:45:14 <pikhq> Only in English do Greek, Latin, Russian, Japanese, Chinese, German, etc. plurals have any meaning at all. ;)
21:45:23 <lament> oerjan: russian has a specific suffix -ina meaning "a female"
21:45:46 <lament> oerjan: i suspect it's the same one as in 'heroine' (which translates to russian directly)
21:46:10 <lament> this suffix is also present in portuguese as -inha
21:46:29 <lament> it's different from the suffix -ine used in chemicals
21:46:31 <oerjan> lament: btw are you in Russia or just descended from there? (Because your English is darn good)
21:46:54 <lament> caffeine is cafeina, not cafeinha, in portuguese.
21:48:37 <lament> oerjan: I have lived in canada for seven years.
21:49:13 <lament> oerjan: but then, english is particularly easy to learn online :)
21:49:16 <oklopol> thanks to south park you now have a very weird head.
21:50:26 <pikhq> lament now has an AK47 in my head. :p
21:51:17 * lament unloads a full drum of bullets into pikhq's head
21:52:55 * pikhq takes the AK47 as he dies
21:53:11 * pikhq hugs the AK47 all the way to heaven. :p
21:53:42 <ihope> Pff, like you'd go there. :-P
21:54:22 <pikhq> What, does God have something against Brainfuck coders?
21:54:49 <ihope> Dante's Inferno has a secret chapter explaining the fate of BF coders.
21:55:04 <ihope> Had, I should say.
21:55:24 <ihope> But it was destroyed the punishment described was just too horrible.
21:55:34 <oerjan> nah, pikhq will get to be sysadmin for dead Microsoft executives.
21:55:59 <ihope> lament: with the Key of Mon, of course!
21:56:08 <pikhq> I'd assume you unlock it by writing http://pikhq.nonlogic.org/game.tar.bz2
21:58:41 <Tritonio> i learned about it this week. ;-)
21:58:57 <lament> Better late than never, I suppose
21:59:10 <Tritonio> (i mean I learned what it actually is and used it)
21:59:35 <oklopol> i've never heard of usenet
21:59:43 * pikhq notices that Tritonio is here. . .
22:00:10 <pikhq> Tritonio: You're the guy who came in here with FBF, right?
22:00:25 <pikhq> 18:50:58 <bsmntbombdood> Tritonio: that's a lot like pikhq's bfm/pebble/pfuck
22:00:36 <pikhq> bsmntbombdood was, apparently, mildly confused. . .
22:00:42 <lament> I'm guessing Tritonio is a teenage male interested in programming who recently found out about Brainfuck, and then, through it, about other esoteric stuff?
22:01:05 <Tritonio> yes I remember this message... I saw peeble.
22:01:05 <pikhq> PFUCK is a Brainfuck->C compiler, and PEBBLE is a language which compiles to Brainfuck. . .
22:01:12 <pikhq> And the documentation is *horribly* out of date.
22:01:36 <lament> well, no points for originality there :)
22:01:48 <pikhq> Hell. . . It predates my compiler rewrite.
22:02:05 <ihope> I'm a teenage male interested in programming who found out about BF and then, through it, about other esoteric stuff! It wasn't recent, though. :-P
22:02:40 <pikhq> I've just gotten stuck on Brainfuck for a fairly solid chunk of time.
22:02:58 <Tritonio> There are 4 languages that compile/convert to BF.
22:03:13 <lament> i am quite sure there's more than 4.
22:03:47 <oklopol> well, there are >20 that are defined by their relationship with bf
22:03:54 <lament> seeing as compiling langs to brainfuck is a popular way to prove their turing-completeness
22:04:08 <ihope> Um, wouldn't that... not do that?
22:04:10 <lament> (i suppose it's not all that popular, actually.)
22:04:19 <pikhq> There may be 4 specifically designed *to* compile to Brainfuck. . .
22:04:53 <pikhq> But that excludes some of the more interesting things out there, such as Gregor's C2BF.
22:04:56 <Tritonio> FBF, BFBASIC, "a c-like language", and PEEBLE.
22:05:13 <lament> don't forget the isomorphs
22:05:21 <oerjan> lament: no, that would be compiling brainfuck to those languages
22:06:04 <pikhq> That would be BFCOMP. . .
22:06:35 <pikhq> I assume Tritonio is referring to high-level languages which compile to Brainfuck.
22:06:46 <Tritonio> I am trying to find a way to convert brainfuck to befunge. or some funge....
22:06:58 <ihope> Didn't a certain thing do that?
22:07:08 <lament> there's a brainfuck interpreter in befunge
22:07:25 <lament> there might have been a converter as well. It's not very hard
22:07:33 <lament> for small programs anyway
22:08:38 <Tritonio> there is one? where can I find it?
22:08:57 <ihope> Now somebody compile BF into Conway's Life.
22:09:17 <Tritonio> yeap... he made aturing machine in game of life..
22:09:35 <lament> ihope: that would be tricky.
22:09:54 <ihope> Indeed it would be.
22:09:58 -!- Tritonio has quit (Nick collision from services.).
22:10:19 <ihope> Not impossible, though.
22:10:23 <oklopol> can you compile bf into a turing machine?
22:10:26 -!- Tritonio has joined.
22:10:27 <lament> oklopol: no, it's not finite.
22:10:36 <Tritonio> * You have been killed by services. (collision)
22:10:38 <Tritonio> * Disconnected (Remote host closed socket).
22:10:39 <pikhq> Tritonio, you might want to change your nickserv password.
22:10:44 <lament> oklopol: it has a tape, which can be infinite if you wish.
22:10:55 <pikhq> It's in the #esoteric logs.
22:10:59 <ihope> Tritonio: somebody might have GHOSTed you?
22:11:01 <lament> oklopol: game of life is obviously not turing-complete unless the field is infinite
22:11:06 <ihope> |<-- Tritonio has left freenode (Nick collision from services.)
22:11:14 <pikhq> I thought the GHOST would be the most effective way to demonstrate why this is a bad idea.
22:11:25 <ihope> Why what's a bad idea?
22:11:39 <pikhq> Why having his Nickserv password in the logs is a bad idea.
22:11:59 <oklopol> lament: but there isn't an infinite turing machine in gol where the initial condition has a finite number of black cells
22:12:05 <oklopol> and now that i come to think of it
22:12:28 <oklopol> i meant, what i said was stupid
22:13:18 <oklopol> because if you simulate an infinite gol, why not make it have that sequence of black cells (memory) extend infinitely
22:13:20 <pikhq> Tritonio: Not at all.
22:13:49 <pikhq> All I know is that you should do "set password new-password-here" or else suffer from the /msg nickserv ghost Tritonio 24062406 legions again.
22:14:12 <ihope> Is 24062406 the password?
22:14:27 <ihope> Yes, you should change it :-P
22:14:38 <Tritonio> and i am born on 24 of june... lol
22:14:54 <ihope> Unless you don't actually want the nick Tritonio...
22:15:12 <lament> oklopol: i don't know the details, if "empty" cells on the tap are encoded by empty GOL patterns, then the initial configuration will be finite
22:15:16 <Tritonio> ok how do i change the password?
22:15:28 <pikhq> I already told you..
22:15:33 <ihope> /msg NickServ SET PASSWORD something
22:15:36 <pikhq> /msg nickserv set password new
22:16:15 <oklopol> lament: true, but i then realized a repetitive but infinite initial configuration is as good as finite.
22:17:01 <oklopol> i thought that by tap you meant something like a glider gun first :P
22:17:07 <lament> oklopol: well, normally programs are expected to be finite to count as "algorithms"
22:17:36 <pikhq> http://pikhq.nonlogic.org/pebble.php Note that the brief spec there needs to be updated.
22:17:45 <oklopol> lament: are infinite white cells more finite than infinite number of repetitive patterns of white and black?
22:18:09 <pikhq> And that the new, shiny stuff I talk about is going to be from svn://nonlogic.org/pikhq/pebble/trunk
22:18:19 <lament> oklopol: "infinite white cells" is more like "a finite board, that you grow as needed when black stuff moves near the edges"
22:18:30 <lament> oklopol: which is a perfectly finite but turing-complete situation
22:18:47 <oklopol> well, any repetitive structure can just be created as needed.
22:19:07 <lament> oklopol: under this description, SMETANA is turing-complete too
22:19:33 <pikhq> Tritonio: Hrm. That documentation is out of date, but it does describe a valid subset of PEBBLE.
22:19:45 <lament> oklopol: http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/SMETANA#Computational_class
22:20:13 <pikhq> I'll update the documentation both there and my local copy, then tar up a 1.0 release.
22:21:01 <Tritonio> the main thing that FBF is missing is macros... ;-)
22:21:08 <oklopol> I THINK TURING COMPLETENESS IS MORE A MATTER OF OPINION THAN MATH.
22:21:17 -!- sebbu has quit (anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net).
22:21:29 -!- sebbu has joined.
22:21:43 <Tritonio> anyway i going to the living room for some pizza and southpark... bye for now! ;-)
22:21:51 <pikhq> And an optimization pass.
22:22:35 <oklopol> I FEEL WHETHER TURING COMPLETENESS IS A MATTER OF OPINION OR MATH IS A MATTER OF OPINION
22:23:42 <ihope> I think a THAT would have made that a bit clearer.
22:24:35 <oklopol> probably, but i don't think either of those were actual errors on my part :P
22:35:27 <pikhq> Tritonio: Released.
22:35:52 <pikhq> http://pikhq.nonlogic.org/esoteric.php
22:40:59 <pikhq> What? Got a problem with it?
22:44:30 <pikhq> I use it because it works, not because it's any good.
22:45:14 <oklopol> the language itself is just a bad version of c with automatic string conversions and millions of buggy integrated functions
22:47:11 <pikhq> Makes sense in Tcl, though, since everything is a string. . .
22:48:09 <pikhq> Everything may be handled as one, however.
22:49:41 <ihope> "4" + "6"... something is not happy.
22:49:58 <ihope> And what function does it have to turn "4" and "6" into "46"?
22:50:43 <ihope> What's "foo" + "bar"?
22:51:08 <oklopol> it'll take the 10 base number that's in the beginning of the string
22:51:08 <ihope> A little odd, I guess.
22:51:25 <oklopol> i don't know php that well
22:52:01 <pikhq> In Tcl, "foo" + "bar" is a syntax error.
22:52:26 <ihope> In Haskell, it's a weird error. :-)
22:53:01 <ihope> Or a different compile-time error.
22:53:24 <bsmntbombdood> compile time given static typing, runtime given dynamic typing
22:53:38 <ihope> Unless your type system is really weird.
22:53:52 <pikhq> syntax error in expression "foo + bar": variable references require preceding $
22:54:12 <ihope> ~exec sys.stdout("foo" + "bar")
22:54:24 <ihope> ~exec sys.stdout("2" + "3")
22:54:36 <ihope> ~exec sys.stdout("2" + 3)
22:54:37 <bsmnt_bot> TypeError: cannot concatenate 'str' and 'int' objects
22:54:54 <ihope> I think the worst thing to give for "2" + 3 is 23.
22:55:33 <oklopol> perl has php style autoconversion
22:55:55 <oklopol> (VERY correct me if i'm wrong here...)
22:57:32 <oerjan> YM php has perl style autoconversion.
23:01:03 -!- Tritonio_ has joined.
23:01:25 -!- Tritonio has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
23:02:47 <oklopol> i know that, it's just age(oklopol_tells_about_php's_autoconversion)>age(same_for_perl)
23:37:41 <oklopol> this book is starting to get interesting
23:38:00 <oklopol> the first 300 pages seem to have been introduction :P
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23:59:38 <oklopol> i don't know how many facts you store per person you don't know, but if it's >=1, store that.