00:02:00 <Sukoshi> lament: It was an old joke.
00:02:41 <Sukoshi> On an old forum I used to go to, we had a joke going where returning values wasn't technically producing output.
00:02:49 <Sukoshi> (You had to actually print it out to do that.)
00:02:57 <Sukoshi> oklopol: I will some time soon.
00:03:10 <oklopol> what'll you use to produce sound?
00:03:35 <Sukoshi> The concept will be on the computer, of course.
00:04:16 <oklopol> i mean, asm out straight into the port, PlaySound, ...?
00:04:51 <Sukoshi> Well, I have to consider what language I want to write it in too.
00:26:20 <lament> Crainfuck!
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01:12:13 <bsmntbombdood> i haven't invented a new language for a while
01:12:29 <oklopol> heh, me neither
01:12:39 <oklopol> been obsessed with oklotalk :=)
01:31:12 <ihope_> I might want to invent one eventually.
01:52:05 <ihope_> I notice that in the BBM cellular automaton that's apparently by Fredkin, every collision results in a delay of 2 steps.
01:54:27 <GreaseMonkey> i did one about a week ago
01:54:39 <GreaseMonkey> yes, you hope.
01:58:37 <ihope_> I also notice that if you're not careful, this can result in billiard balls breaking apart.
02:03:22 <bsmntbombdood> buttplug!?!
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02:13:32 <ihope_> ...what?
02:39:49 <oklopol> it's a thing you use to prevent overflow
02:40:41 <oerjan> wouldn't that be underflow, rather?
02:40:44 <oklopol> i think i should sleep now, my sleep cycles seem to be getting a bit weird
02:41:05 <oklopol> it's 4:42, i'm not really tired and i haven't drunk coffee at all :|
02:42:54 <bsmntbombdood> i think overflow, even though it is underflow
02:43:12 <bsmntbombdood> s/underflow/under/
02:44:04 <bsmntbombdood> or just dialation
02:45:19 <oklopol> or just for fun
02:45:43 <bsmntbombdood> i would assume it's the dialation that causes the fun, no?
02:46:14 <oklopol> well, i guess
02:46:21 <oklopol> and the fear of getting caught
02:46:24 <oklopol> if it's really big.
02:48:15 <bsmntbombdood> hopefully, by caught you don't mean capture
02:49:31 <oklopol> would that be bad?
02:49:54 <bsmntbombdood> capture would require a trip to the ER
02:51:18 <oklopol> ah it getting caught
02:51:26 <oklopol> well, some people like nurses
02:52:34 <bsmntbombdood> some way to meet a girl...
02:52:35 <bsmntbombdood> :P
02:54:04 <oklopol> i'm laughing a bit too much now, perhaps i should sleep
02:54:29 <bsmntbombdood> i think laughing is well warranted
02:56:47 <oklopol> i guess
02:57:00 <oklopol> still laughing
02:57:21 <oklopol> hope it'll wear off soon
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04:26:32 <bsmntbombdood> http://www.little-gamers.com/comics/00001342.jpg
04:29:46 * oerjan is relieved not to know that quote.
04:30:24 <bsmntbombdood> http://bash.org/?104383
04:30:30 <bsmntbombdood> haha, i just ruined your sex life
04:32:05 <oerjan> you are far too late for that.
04:32:47 <oerjan> although my chances _might_ still be better than those two chatters. i don't know.
04:32:48 <oklopol> oerjan: future sex life
04:34:49 <oklopol> or late for that as well?
04:34:54 <oklopol> and why am i not sleeping?
04:34:56 <oklopol> :|
04:35:17 <oerjan> only time will show.
04:35:54 <oklopol> i do stuff like in that quote sometimes, when horny old guy start harrassing me
04:35:55 <oklopol> *guys
04:36:22 <bsmntbombdood> horny old guys harrass you?
04:36:44 <oklopol> sometimes, on big channels
04:38:05 <oklopol> like here, many of you harrass me in priv
04:38:20 <oerjan> shh!
04:38:22 <oklopol> YOU KNOW WHO YOU ARE
04:38:27 <oerjan> oops
04:38:42 <oklopol> it's okay.
04:39:32 <oklopol> hmm, wonder if i could stay awake the whole day
04:40:11 <bsmntbombdood> without sleep the previous night?
04:40:23 <oklopol> i slept during the day
04:40:33 <oklopol> 11-17 i think
04:40:35 <oklopol> perhaps more
04:58:44 <RodgerTheGreat> 'night everyone
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09:32:52 <GreaseMonkey> yays, i now have a working wireworld interpreter for QB4.5!
11:00:13 <GreaseMonkey> getting off now, gnight
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14:35:58 <RodgerTheGreat> hey, guys
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14:36:53 <RodgerTheGreat> how's it going, ihope?
14:37:03 <ihope> Not bad.
14:37:52 <ihope> I think I'm probably going to get a wish in NetHack.
14:39:18 <RodgerTheGreat> I'm whipping up a BF interpreter that uses cells of size 26 and maps them to capital A-Z. I call it "cryptographic BF", because it makes implementing/cracking basic crypto algorithms simpler.
14:39:54 <RodgerTheGreat> hopefully nobody will hit me with a trout for coming up with yet another bf variant. :[
14:43:23 * ihope hits RodgerTheGreat with a tuna for coming up with yet another BF variant
14:43:47 <RodgerTheGreat> well, at least that's a small improvement
14:46:05 * ihope hits RodgerTheGreat 999,998 more times!
14:48:06 * RodgerTheGreat is operating in modulo 26 math. that's only 14 hits!
14:50:41 <ihope> Hmm.
14:51:01 * ihope does that every 26 Planck times
14:51:16 <ihope> After all, it's only once modulo 26.
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15:01:14 <Tritonio_>  why don't you make a brainfuck implementation with variable modulo? Use the first cell for the modulo and the second for the beggining of the mapping. So normal brainfuck should be 256,0 while your implementation 26,'A'
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15:03:10 <RodgerTheGreat> Tritonio: interesting
15:04:27 <Tritonio_> or maybe use the first cell for the modulo and the next cell (a total of <modulo> cells) for the mapping.
15:04:38 <Tritonio_> so that you can do some strange mappings.
15:04:47 <Tritonio_> with scrambled characters.
15:04:51 <Tritonio_> ;-)
15:06:02 <RodgerTheGreat> hm. that could potentially make certain cyphers very easy
15:06:30 <RodgerTheGreat> both of those are good suggestions for a cryptographic BF implementation
15:06:52 <RodgerTheGreat> ooh- to retain normal BF functionality, I could store that data in "negative" cells.
15:07:10 <RodgerTheGreat> -1 could be modulo, and then -2 - -n+1 would be mappings
15:07:27 <RodgerTheGreat> then have them *default* to 26 and A-Z for convenience
15:07:45 <Tritonio_> yeap.
15:08:48 <RodgerTheGreat> and then for implementation convenience (so I can use a conventional array and not have to do messy recopies all the time) I can cap the modulo at some maximum. is 255 reasonable, or should I make it higher?
15:09:11 <Tritonio_> leave it to 256...
15:09:26 <RodgerTheGreat> 0-255, you mean
15:09:47 <Tritonio_> yes. 0 <= x mod 256 <= 255
15:10:11 <Tritonio_> what language are you going to use?
15:10:55 <RodgerTheGreat> my instinct is to do it in Java, but I may force myself to write it in C, for practice
15:11:38 <Tritonio_> kk
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15:17:25 <Tritonio_> finally
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15:24:15 <RodgerTheGreat> is there a really easy way to dump stdin to a char array or something, or do I have to mess around with cin.getLine() ?
15:26:46 <RodgerTheGreat> (yeah, C++. I/O is less painful)
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15:53:35 <oerjan> you do not want to save the _modulo_ in the first cell, after all it would redefine itself as 0.
15:54:00 <oerjan> and modulo-1 would not work either, as it would wrap to 0 whenever you try to increase it.
15:54:48 <oerjan> modulo-2 could work.
16:02:20 <RodgerTheGreat> I'm just not going to enforce wrapping on negative cells. poof, problem solved
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18:01:04 <Keymaker> damn... no kipple around.
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19:15:21 <lament> "This is a brainfuck interpreter writen in Zetaplex! It is actually the first program writen in Zetaplex. Note: This does not work anymore because the specification has changed, but most of it is correct and it could probably be fixed easily, its just not been tried yet."
19:18:56 <RodgerTheGreat> heh
19:21:51 <lament> yeah, i'm sure it will be fixed any time soon now.
19:41:29 <bsmntbombdood> RodgerTheGreat: noooo not c++
19:41:36 <bsmntbombdood> and noooo not C
19:42:52 <bsmntbombdood> and yes, fread
19:51:34 <RodgerTheGreat> bbl
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20:06:02 <pikhq> Blargh. Just as I had a solution for Rodger. . .
20:09:05 <pikhq> cin.getLine.c_str
20:15:20 <bsmntbombdood> i have a solution
20:15:23 <bsmntbombdood> don't use C+
20:15:25 <bsmntbombdood> +
20:17:09 <pikhq> C++ actually isn't a horrible language. . . If used sanely.
20:17:24 <pikhq> (although C is a good deal *cleaner* ;))
20:17:24 <bsmntbombdood> no
20:17:49 <bsmntbombdood> C++ isn't a horrible language...if you only use the C parts
20:18:43 <Izak> o.O
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20:19:43 <pikhq> -_-'
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21:21:39 <RodgerTheGreat> I'm back
21:22:41 <pikhq> Mmkay.
21:22:52 <pikhq> 08:22 < RodgerTheGreat> is there a really easy way to dump stdin to a char array or something, or do I have to mess around
21:23:09 <pikhq> cin.getLine().c_str();
21:23:20 <pikhq> Should return a char * for you.
21:23:22 <RodgerTheGreat> sweet
21:23:23 <RodgerTheGreat> thanks
21:23:38 <RodgerTheGreat> that's *exactly* what I want
21:23:46 <RodgerTheGreat> I assume it's null terminated?
21:25:01 <bsmntbombdood> by definition
21:27:45 <pikhq> Duh.
21:28:22 <pikhq> Hrm. . .
21:29:20 <pikhq> Actually, it might be wiser to do str_dup(cin.getLine().c_str());, since .c_str() just returns the char * that's part of the string object. . .
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22:39:16 <Tritonio> anybody knows where I can discuss things about software licencing? I want to make I licence to use in my programs. I do not like some point's in the GNU/GPL, I find it to strict. So i am trying to modify the MIT license to fit my needs.
22:49:54 <pikhq_> Why do you find the GNU GPL too strict?
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22:54:17 <RodgerTheGreat> Tritonio: you could always go with my favorite license: http://sam.zoy.org/wtfpl/
22:58:21 <Tritonio> I think it is strict in many ways. For example if you alter the code of a gpled program you have to note exactly what you changed and when. I don't like that kind of things. I like small and strightforward licenses. Of course GPL is good for projects like linux...
22:59:23 <RodgerTheGreat> the WTFPL is probably the most open document that could be legally considered a software license
22:59:47 <pikhq> Have you *read* the GPL?
23:00:03 <RodgerTheGreat> yes. In great detail
23:00:05 <pikhq> You don't have to note the changes, you just have to place them under the GPL.
23:00:09 <pikhq> I was talking to Tritonio.
23:00:25 <pikhq> If you're going to argue against the GPL, at *least* argue against what's in it. ;)
23:00:26 <RodgerTheGreat> I came to the conclusion that it was far too viral for my taste
23:00:30 <RodgerTheGreat> ah, ok
23:01:03 <pikhq> RodgerTheGreat: I, of course, disagree: I find that it's best property.
23:01:12 <Tritonio> wait....
23:03:21 <Tritonio> "The work must carry prominent notices stating that you modified
23:03:22 <Tritonio>     it, and giving a relevant date."
23:04:28 <Tritonio> let alone the viral thing that RodgerTheGreat talked about
23:04:48 <Tritonio> what happens if you want to change the license of a program you wrote?
23:04:49 <pikhq> Which is the whole, uh, point.
23:05:04 <pikhq> If you are the copyright holder, you just do it.
23:05:36 <RodgerTheGreat> this of course rapidly becomes fuzzy in a collaborative setting
23:05:43 <pikhq> If you use GPL'd bits and pieces, remove those pieces, so that you're not using someone else's GPL'd code. . .
23:06:25 <Tritonio> so can I modify the MIT to allow only merging, republishing etc as freeware?
23:06:27 <pikhq> Tritonio: http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/why-copyleft.html
23:06:32 <pikhq> Sure you can.
23:06:36 <Tritonio> (not open source necessarily)
23:07:01 <pikhq> Although it'd no longer be a free software license. . .
23:07:15 <Tritonio> I have read about GNU/GPL... I like it but not for my programs...
23:07:37 <Tritonio> Well who cares if it will be FSF approved... ;-)
23:08:00 <pikhq> If it's not free software, then I'm not using it. ;)
23:08:23 <Tritonio> You don't have to...
23:08:39 <oklopol> RodgerTheGreat: does WTFPL let anyone change the license?
23:08:55 <pikhq> oklopol: That's "doing what the fuck you want", isn't it?
23:09:17 <oklopol> hmm
23:09:18 <Tritonio> I still don't get one thing about the MIT licence...
23:09:19 <oklopol> probably
23:09:39 <pikhq> Tritonio: Shoot.
23:09:56 <Tritonio> If someone takes some of my code and uses it in his program. He has to include my copyright and the permission notice.
23:10:08 <Tritonio> what's the point of including the permission notice?
23:10:25 <RodgerTheGreat> pikhq: in order to do this, is there something I need to include other than iostream? -> "str_dup(cin.getLine().c_str());"
23:10:42 <pikhq> Very little.
23:10:46 <Tritonio> the permission notice gives permission to people that recieved my program and my documentation.
23:10:48 <pikhq> RodgerTheGreat: cstring
23:11:49 <Tritonio> but if he includes just a piece of my code then the permission notice won't be for the people that download his program.
23:11:52 <Tritonio> or it will
23:12:01 <RodgerTheGreat> shift.cpp:6: error: 'struct std::istream' has no member named 'getLine'
23:12:02 <RodgerTheGreat> shift.cpp:6: error: 'str_dup' was not declared in this scope
23:12:05 <pikhq> Wouldn't be.
23:12:19 <Tritonio> so why include it?
23:12:24 * sebbu a son DUT Informatique
23:14:09 <oerjan> sebbu: what's DUT?
23:14:22 <pikhq> That ought to be strdup. . . And getline, not getLine.
23:14:29 <pikhq> strdup is in <cstring>
23:14:51 <sebbu> oerjan, an french diploma in 2 years after the bac
23:15:08 <oerjan> sebbu: congratulations :)
23:15:28 <RodgerTheGreat> shift.cpp:6: error: no matching function for call to 'std::basic_istream<char, std::char_traits<char> >::getline()'
23:18:00 <pikhq> Try using C I/O functions.
23:18:11 <RodgerTheGreat> which are?
23:18:52 <pikhq> Pull up the libc info page.
23:39:52 <Tritonio> pikhq, RodgerTheGreat, can i send you the licence i have made? it's not finished of course. But I want some help...
23:40:17 <RodgerTheGreat> sure. paste a copy to http://nonlogic.org/dump
23:41:32 <Tritonio> ok. http://www.nonlogic.org/dump/text/1183675216.html
23:42:15 <Tritonio> after that I will put the MIT disclaimer.
23:42:27 <Tritonio> But i still want to expand 2. a bit.
23:43:56 <Tritonio> maybe is should change it to: "the resulting program and any future derivative programs"
23:49:52 <pikhq> Then you've got exactly what you complained about with the GPL. . .
23:50:31 <pikhq> In fact, you've made something that is, in some ways, more restrictive than the GPL.
23:51:33 <Tritonio> but it is straightforward... ;-) what is more restrictive? it even allows closed source programs...
23:52:31 <pikhq> Only for freeware, however.
23:52:34 <Tritonio> I only ask that the resulting work will still be freeware. even if it is closed source.
23:52:43 <pikhq> The GPL says *nothing* about cost.
23:52:53 <pikhq> Nor does any free software license.
23:53:14 <Tritonio> I don't want people profiting from my code. that's all. i don't care if they want to share the changes they made.
23:53:30 <Tritonio> so they can close the source.
23:53:36 <Tritonio> but provide their programs for free.
23:53:58 <pikhq> Your program's not open source, either. . .
23:54:03 <Tritonio> it is
23:54:40 <pikhq> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_Source_Definition
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23:55:11 <pikhq> Hrm. Scratch that.
23:55:44 <pikhq> The OSI definition doesn't specify jack about restricting the cost to be charged.
23:55:52 <pikhq> It *is* open source, but not free.
23:56:23 <Tritonio> sorry i don't see why it is not open source and free.
23:56:29 <Tritonio> why it isn't free?
23:56:43 <pikhq> Because I can't charge for it.
23:58:08 <oerjan> "the software can be freely given away or sold", doesn't that imply you cannot restrict prizing?
23:58:09 <Tritonio> if you could charge for it it wouldn't be free either.
23:58:21 <pikhq> oerjan: Hmm.
23:58:24 <Tritonio> "or"
23:58:41 <pikhq> Tritonio: Free as in "free speech", not "free beer", thank you.
23:58:46 <Tritonio> so giving it is enough for calling it "open source"
23:59:01 <Tritonio> giving it away*
23:59:28 <oerjan> no, that quote implies "freely sold" as well