00:00:30 pikhq, you are right 00:00:41 http://opensource.org/docs/osd 00:00:50 look at number 1. 00:01:59 I'd call your license a semi-free license. . . 00:02:58 whatever. Is it OK anyway? 00:03:07 I mean do you understand it? 00:03:10 Yes. 00:03:20 It's *legal*, but I *highly* dislike it. 00:03:26 lol 00:03:56 you must love GLP right? ;-) 00:04:17 I'm a fan of the GPL or LGPL for larger projects, and the BSD license for quick hacks. 00:04:40 (the BSD license is roughly equivalent to the MIT license) 00:05:49 i know... what about the MIT licence? I mean what do you think about it? 00:06:08 Not my favorite license, merely because I'm a fan of copyleft. 00:06:42 I don't hate it, and I don't worship it, but I find it a fairly decent little license. 00:08:05 why does gnu let people sell open source software? 00:08:15 i mean what's the point of selling it. 00:08:44 First: GNU doesn't *do* open source software; they do free software. 00:09:04 Second: They consider the right to sell software just as important as the right to give it away for free. 00:09:54 Third: The Free Software Foundation, which runs the GNU Project, has some of their income from copies of GNU software. 00:32:04 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 01:28:56 can anybody think of an easy way to find/generate a list of a couple thousand of the most common words in the english language? 01:30:30 I have an idea for an algorithm capable of automatically cracking substitution cyphers, but I'll need at least a small dictionary for it to be effective. 01:31:09 http://www.paulnoll.com/Books/Clear-English/English-3000-common-words.html 01:31:34 my basic strategy is doing a letter-frequency analysis and coming up with a few dozen translation "guesses", and then ranking these based on how many english words they contain 01:31:45 Sensible. 01:32:16 Possible to get around, but that's true of any letter-frequency analysis. 01:32:22 oerjan: I'll have to go through some contortions to get that in a convenient text file, but thanks! 01:32:43 pikhq: of course. The goal is for it to work "most of the time" 01:33:41 there are other google hits for "common words english", but that was the longest on the first page 01:35:26 the best way is to grab a block of text similar to what you're trying to analyse surely? 01:36:29 maybe simpler to extract: http://www.edict.com.hk/lexiconindex/frequencylists/words2000.htm 01:38:21 It's slow, but I'm doing alright with that first link 01:40:30 zzzzzzzzzz 01:42:26 what's the easiest commandline way to convert a text document to uppercase? 01:42:47 tr a-z A-Z 01:42:51 i think 01:43:21 Ought to be. 01:44:25 like "tr a-z A-Z dict.txt"? 01:44:41 usual redirection, yes 01:46:19 oh, just stdin, you must use ah, alright 01:47:06 perfect 01:48:33 http://rodger.nonlogic.org/files/dict.txt <- in case anyone else has a use for it 01:48:49 you could also use perl -ipe 'tr/a-z/A-Z/;' to do it to a file in place 01:50:13 there. ~3000 words, all uppercase with no punctuation. 01:50:46 that ought to be enough to get a reasonably accurate sampling 02:54:50 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit ("leaving now, cya"). 03:27:24 -!- pikhq_ has joined. 03:29:24 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 03:55:30 -!- pikhq_ has changed nick to pikhq. 04:03:38 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving"). 04:08:48 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 04:26:15 'night, guys 04:26:27 -!- RodgerTheGreat has quit. 05:58:27 -!- Sgeo has quit ("Ex-Chat"). 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:51:45 -!- sekhmet_ has joined. 08:52:47 -!- sekhmet has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 10:09:01 -!- sekhmet_ has quit (Remote closed the connection). 10:09:04 -!- sekhmet has joined. 11:25:31 night all 11:26:01 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit ("argh balls"). 12:23:56 -!- RedDak has joined. 12:50:50 -!- RodgerTheGreat has joined. 12:51:05 hi everyone 12:52:49 -!- dak has joined. 12:54:12 -!- RedDak has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 13:05:26 lo 13:09:01 hey, oklopol 13:09:10 what are the haps? 13:09:34 nothing really 13:09:38 been coding a game 13:09:47 but c++ pissed me off pretty bad :) 13:10:18 what kind of game? 13:10:31 my fractals inspired me to make a game where tree-like fractals are grown 13:10:58 with no real goal 13:11:12 but i'd like to get a bit of natural selection in 13:11:35 basically you just buy random seeds, plant them and see what happens 13:11:48 you can then choose the seeds of the best trees you have 13:11:58 and they will somewhat resemble their parent 13:12:09 "Fractal Tree Farmer X-treme!" 13:12:22 a tree supposedly grows for about 10 hours - 2 days :) 13:12:53 i'm thinking of calling it "seedfest" 13:12:55 :D 13:13:04 sounds kinda like a slower-paced tamagotchi 13:13:11 yeah 13:13:11 sounds like a cool name 13:13:55 if C++ is frustrating you, have you considered writing it in Java? 13:16:33 hmm 13:16:38 i know java pretty good 13:16:52 i could use it in theory, i just don't know how you do graphics with it 13:18:37 sir, you have encountered the right person! 13:18:41 heh :D 13:19:04 I am exceedingly skilled with 2D graphics, and I am fully familiar with Java's capabilities 13:19:19 2d is exactly what i'm doing 13:19:28 and, real 2d, not just a 3d wannabe 13:19:39 like, two objects can't share a pixel 13:20:06 hmm 13:20:11 but light particles can jump over pixels to make it possible for interior branches to stay alive 13:20:30 sounds tricky, yet possible 13:21:02 i need some kind of a antialiasing for the branches 13:21:06 doing things on the per-pixel level like that will require some tricky coding or it'll absolutely crawl 13:21:07 to make them grow smoothly 13:21:22 it's actually pretty easy 13:21:28 since everything consists of lines. 13:21:38 I've never tried antialiasing, but I've done some basic blur filters, so I think I can handle it 13:21:53 and, it's not actually pixels, zooming and scaling is possible 13:21:58 it's just two lines can't cross. 13:22:30 i could just iterate pixels near branches and make a metaball-kinda line out of them 13:22:58 "marching lines" 13:23:00 haha 13:23:14 i need a bit of antialiasing, because i want them to grow in such a way that the growth can never be seen 13:23:36 so that even if you stare at it without blinking for 7 hours, you can't see a single movement 13:24:06 i've made a tree-growth simulator a few years ago 13:24:38 but it just drew lines as the trees grew, and you could clearly see it grow upwards one pixel at the time 13:24:46 no matter how slow a growth 13:25:26 hm 13:26:35 essentially, you just need to add a line segment one pixel long, do a very slow fade from 0,0,0 to 0,255,0 (or whatever), and then merge the line segments 13:29:08 you mean, draw many lines next to each othr? 13:29:10 *utter 13:29:17 *udder 13:30:33 possibly 13:30:37 i could do just that, plus end it in a half-circle 13:31:33 are you more interested in making these look/grow like physical trees, or are you more inclined towards mathematical patterns? 13:31:50 mathematical patterns 13:31:57 it could be interesting to model the effects of sunlight and plant growth hormones 13:31:58 aw 13:32:05 i mean 13:32:16 i just want to see what happens 13:32:40 i'm not going for anything spesific 13:33:03 the fact lines can't cross will make the trees look pretty weird, i think 13:33:08 on a side note, this is freaking awesome: http://www.coolhunting.com/archives/2007/06/atari_flashback.php 13:33:14 and if they're too dense, branches start dying 13:33:16 most likely, yes 13:33:21 because sunlight won't hit them 13:33:39 so you're actually talking about something resembling a cellular automaton 13:34:06 not especially 13:34:15 why would that resemble a ca? 13:34:51 it's the same sort of rule system- small parts of the plant grow only in relation to local forces 13:35:13 and the overall tree becomes an emergent property 13:35:28 well, i just want something to happen other than just fractals to make any natural selection -ish make any difference :) 13:35:53 true, the concept of dense -> death, not dense enough -> death resembles a ca 13:36:18 but actually, it's more the fact that a simple system like a ca will resemble a complex system with that kinda behaviour 13:36:30 heh 13:38:10 you can also cut the trees and poke them 13:38:13 and wind 13:38:16 and rain 13:38:28 because they're pretty easy to simulate 13:39:02 it'll just basically be a fun screensaver, because it's not really a game 13:39:20 a little bit of physics, a little bit of a particle effect... 13:39:26 yeah 13:39:39 but 2d, and doesn't have to be that realistic 13:41:11 hmm, i'll continue now, or start from the beginning with java, if you tell me what to do :) 13:41:23 if i have to dl and install something, we're in trouble. 13:41:25 :P 13:41:40 do you have the Java SDK? 13:42:02 tbh i don't know :D 13:42:14 go to a terminal and type "javac" 13:42:18 i do. 13:42:23 goodie 13:42:30 what OS do you run, again? 13:42:36 windows / ubuntu now 13:42:43 this is win 13:42:49 ... 13:42:50 err 13:42:53 i mean, this is ubuntu 13:42:57 the other is win 13:42:57 hm. odd that you'd have java without knowing it. 13:43:08 i use it, i don't know what sdk is 13:43:29 ok, let's write a hello world 13:43:33 :DD 13:43:42 make a new text file called "Hello.java" 13:43:44 i've done about 200 java progs :) 13:43:54 oh, ok, I'm an idiot 13:44:01 nvm then 13:44:13 do you just want to learn how to make an applet or something? 13:44:13 i'm just very dense about anything other than programming 13:44:22 that's be nice 13:44:34 applets make graphical thingies easy 13:44:43 lemme pastebin an applet template... 13:44:44 can applets be run without a browser? (:P) 13:44:54 okay 13:45:11 you need *either* a browser or the appletviewer application (part of the SDK) 13:45:18 -!- oklofok has joined. 13:45:26 o 13:45:26 o 13:46:26 *that'd 13:47:13 http://nonlogic.org/dump/text/1183725977.html 13:47:18 RodgerTheGreat: are there working java >> exe converters? 13:47:27 i mean, ones that actually work 13:47:29 man, my tabbing there is really odd 13:47:38 oklopol: I am not familiar with any 13:47:42 i don't care about whitespace 13:48:03 some people tell me GCJ works really well, but I don't particularly trust it 13:48:15 hmm 13:48:21 i kinda need to get an exe 13:48:28 why? 13:48:44 there will pretty much be 1 player for my game :) 13:48:50 and he doesn't have java 13:49:10 you know what I'm going to say, right? 13:49:19 make him install it? 13:49:40 yes 13:50:37 perhaps i could 13:50:47 or make my own java -> exe 13:50:52 i mean 13:50:56 like py2exe does it 13:51:07 hm 13:51:08 just an exe with a java vm inside it :P 13:51:17 plus .class 13:52:07 i mean, that basically the exe will just-in-time install java. 13:52:16 well, either way you do something like that, you might want to do this as a Java Application 13:52:35 this makes graphics a bit more complex, but still entirely doable. 13:53:00 well 13:53:19 tbh i don't really care how i do it, the functionality is all that matters 13:53:26 and graphics matters a bit 13:53:33 so 13:53:41 perhaps the java applet is good enough 13:56:22 hmm 13:56:24 * RodgerTheGreat shrugs 13:56:37 perhaps i should start, you did indeed give me the applet already :D 13:56:43 forgot about it already 13:57:48 the only thing you should need to know is that in the paint method, use the Graphics object you're provided 13:58:01 update() adds a simple buffering mechanism 13:58:19 look up the javadocs on Graphics() and you should be set 13:58:23 will i write a main somewhere? \: 13:58:28 nope 13:58:41 -!- dak has quit (Remote closed the connection). 13:58:43 paint is called at every frame? 13:58:48 the paint() method is effectively your main loop 13:58:49 yes 13:59:00 do i have to clrscr? 13:59:07 or manually clear? 13:59:18 no- it's effectively cleared before each paint() 13:59:30 will it flash like crazy? :P 13:59:34 or not at all? 13:59:41 http://rodger.nonlogic.org/games/CogEngine/Gears.htm <- this uses some external classes and things of mine, but it's a reasonable example 13:59:45 that's why it's buffered 13:59:56 i guess an empty screen is never buffered, yeah 14:03:04 RodgerTheGreat: did you make that? 14:03:14 yes 14:03:21 it's on my website, isn't it? 14:03:41 -!- jix has joined. 14:03:45 well... could be any rodger! 14:04:28 lol 14:04:45 so... how do i run it? :) 14:04:48 javac? 14:04:55 i mean 14:05:00 how do i compile + run it 14:05:20 "javac whatever.java" and then "appletviewer whatever.java" 14:06:05 appletviewer actually takes an HTML document with an tag in it as a parameter, but if you notice, I've cleverly placed one in a comment in the main source 14:06:58 i'll tryzz 14:10:06 applet not initialized... is this the stuff i should read myself? 14:10:38 I need to see the error 14:11:08 well... it runs 14:11:12 ? 14:11:15 so not really an error 14:11:30 it just says applet not initialized in the applet itself :D 14:11:34 it's bottom bar 14:11:41 that means it doesn't run 14:11:45 Start: applet not initialized 14:11:45 pastebin your source 14:11:46 oh 14:11:52 it's your source :) 14:12:41 heyyy 14:12:53 appletviewer whatever.JAVA? 14:12:57 you sure about that? 14:13:02 i compile it, then open the source? 14:13:14 effectively 14:13:21 did you read what I said above about that? 14:13:22 that's.... weird 14:13:24 oh 14:13:28 no, i guess :| 14:13:29 I explained why that works 14:13:32 oh 14:13:34 indeed you did 14:13:39 ah 14:13:56 well, i understood that a bit wrong 14:14:12 i changed the classes name, so i gotta change the code as well 14:14:18 but javac is needless then? 14:14:19 ah 14:14:22 no, of course 14:14:26 i get it now 14:14:42 there we go 14:14:59 Applet started 14:14:59 :) 14:15:01 cewl 14:15:15 err... can i get that fullscreen?= 14:15:28 oh oh, it's maaagic... ya know... 14:15:29 or at least the Applet menu out? 14:15:54 if you run in-browser, there are no menus or status bars 14:16:04 year 14:16:14 so, no way? 14:16:24 well, i guess that doesn't matter 14:16:28 can i resize it? 14:16:30 hmm 14:16:38 perhaps i should read and stop bugging you 14:16:42 appletviewer should let you resize it 14:16:51 manually, yes 14:16:52 but you'll need to code the thing to adjust to it 14:17:07 can i adjust it in the code? 14:17:09 you can also change the size with the tag 14:17:12 or did you just say i can? 14:17:19 yes I just said you could 14:17:40 can i make it unresizable? 14:18:24 in browser, it is not resizable 14:18:46 and there's probably a way to keep appletviewer from allowing it, too 14:18:51 I dunno offhand 14:18:57 i see, well i'll just start making it 14:19:00 shouldn't take long 14:19:06 one word of warning 14:19:10 if i figure the drawing functions 14:19:12 kay? 14:19:21 Applets have a couple odd limitations you should know about and plan for 14:19:27 >: 14:19:32 shoot 14:19:50 primarily, applets are limited in their ability to do file I/O without a security check 14:19:59 hmm 14:20:02 i need file io 14:20:08 to what extent? 14:20:17 i need to save/load 14:20:22 hm 14:20:33 well, loading is pretty easy. Saving is another story. 14:20:36 i need file io... to that extent :) 14:20:38 okay 14:20:45 i need both i and o 14:21:28 alright, then I suggest you play with Java Webstart and Java applications. However, applets are still an extremely good way to become familiar with Graphics 14:21:46 do graphics work the same way in all them? 14:21:47 *of 14:21:57 the Graphics object works the same way 14:22:07 i that how i draw, g.xxx()? 14:22:16 *is 14:22:58 i'll make the trees draw themselves, so it doesn't really matter who tells them to draw, i can wrap that easily into any system if drawing works the same way 14:26:27 yep 14:27:11 g2g 14:30:12 wow 14:30:18 i actually drew a line 14:30:20 :D 14:30:40 anyone can write a game 14:30:53 not many can get a programming tool work! 14:30:59 *to 14:31:11 kay, now trees 14:32:37 why does my code go into paint and not into update? 14:48:10 hmm 14:49:09 no 'hmm' 14:49:12 false alarm. 14:50:56 back 14:51:01 still on track? 14:51:16 i now have 6 classes 14:51:52 so yes 14:51:59 it's just this is a very verbose language... 14:52:11 every language has something i can't stand :) 14:52:30 oklotalk has the minor flaw of not existing. 14:52:35 haha 14:53:06 in Java, verbosity is not usually redundant, and exists to make sure things work how one expects them to 14:53:29 i guess, but doesn't change my view :) 14:53:32 anyway 14:53:33 few languages are as consistent as Java with a comparable library 14:53:33 errr 14:53:47 for(GrowNode i:gns)i.grow(); is safe? 14:54:03 i mean, is i mutable there 14:54:17 *is 'i' mutable there 14:54:28 erm 14:54:44 yes, i should be mutable 14:55:00 if I recall correctly, builtin iterators pass by reference 14:55:32 there are some quirks... jsut don't remember what exactly :\ 14:55:48 it's just i don't like making an index based iteration 14:55:51 Java has none of C/C++'s bizarre copy/refer complexity 14:55:52 because it's ugly 14:55:59 i know 14:56:16 I like making index-based iterations, because iterators imply overhead and obscure code 14:56:45 i don't care about obscurity 14:56:45 it's also more predictable when you want to remove things from the list while iterating 14:56:50 overhead is bad of course 14:56:56 hmm 14:57:02 (a common occurance in games, for example) 14:57:12 i guess i'll do it with indices 14:57:17 say I'm indexing through elements of a Vector or something 15:03:53 err 15:04:03 is there anything like c's atan2() in java? 15:04:23 for getting direction out of cartesian coordinates 15:04:43 not that i couldn't make it myself, i'm just being javaish :) 15:06:05 Math.atan2() ? 15:06:16 well, i guess Math.atan2() might be close yeah :P 15:06:20 lol 15:06:24 just figured i have javadocs open 15:06:40 i'll never get used to googling :P 15:06:52 well 15:07:03 guess i will once i can use google from irc 15:07:14 or once okloOS is finished 15:07:26 i have a completely new system for networking 15:07:35 but more of that later 15:08:05 once i manage to make oklotalk, i can start worrying about setting up an operating system :D 15:08:13 not setting up 15:08:17 but making on 15:08:18 *one 15:09:12 heh, i didn't even need atan2 :DD 15:09:17 just sin/cos 15:09:21 wrong direction 15:09:26 when will i learn... 15:09:36 lol 15:11:33 is it okay to do Foo bar=baz.getQiddy();bar.change();? 15:11:34 i mean 15:11:45 and not call setQiddy then 15:12:08 because i already effectively mutated whatever was returned from getQiddy 15:12:09 hm? 15:12:32 I'm somewhat confused by your example 15:12:45 or should i add baz.setQiddy(bar); after those 15:14:03 so i mean, i access something by a getter... baz.getQiddy() here... then i mutate it, bar.change() because i stored it in bar. now i mutated the exact object getQiddy returned 15:14:37 so do i have to do baz.setQiddy(bar) even though it doesn't really do anything? 15:15:12 i'm pretty sure i'm being clear here but i can't be very objective about that of course \: 15:15:21 if you get a reference to an object, and then modify things related to that reference, you don't have to "put the reference back" 15:15:27 good. 15:15:31 I think that answers your question 15:15:40 it answers it perfectly 15:15:42 this only applies to objects, not primitives 15:15:45 ok 15:15:49 i know the basics 15:15:59 i just thought it might be javaish to put it back 15:16:24 not really. That could get extremely confusing 15:16:25 just doing >=1 comments per 200 lines of code might be javaish 15:16:31 *just like 15:16:37 which i'd never do! 15:16:47 well perhaps if i was payed for it 15:16:56 when I properly Javadoc my code, it generally doubles in size 15:17:05 i like my code pretty and indecipherable 15:17:19 I only Javadoc code that I know other people will use 15:17:50 i'll prolly start doing that sooner or later 15:38:58 -!- c|p has joined. 16:06:31 haha, couldn't get it working 16:06:49 but i then realized i had changed the code in paint when first playing with it :D 16:07:09 well spent 30 min 16:17:48 -!- c|p has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 16:18:07 -!- c|p has joined. 16:19:46 -!- jix__ has joined. 16:28:01 -!- jix has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 16:33:32 -!- c|p has quit ("( www.nnscript.de :: NoNameScript 4.02 :: www.XLhost.de )"). 16:52:23 -!- sebbu has joined. 17:11:28 can't figure out how to make fading with g.drawLine :| 17:11:44 i'm pretty sure it won't look good if i just put them next to each other... 17:11:46 -!- oerjan has joined. 17:15:53 -!- jix__ has changed nick to jix. 17:48:41 -!- RedDak has joined. 18:25:46 * Tritonio is still trying to make the license. 18:29:34 yeah, it's more fun than coding 18:50:12 somebody implemented an esolang in D? talk about esoteric 18:50:40 ah, the joys of insane bootstrapping 18:54:59 -!- oklofok has quit. 19:11:04 -!- RedDak has quit (Remote closed the connection). 19:32:53 -!- oerjan has quit ("Supper"). 20:25:29 -!- _Ann_ has joined. 20:26:44 -!- _Ann_ has left (?). 20:46:04 -!- RedDak has joined. 20:47:23 -!- Tritonio_ has joined. 20:48:50 -!- Tritonio has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 21:01:19 what >exactly< the second paragraph of the MIT licence means? 21:01:32 the little one. 21:10:56 could i replace the phrase "The above copyright notice and this permission notice" with "This license" 21:31:56 RodgerTheGreat: how the heck can i debug an applet? :P 21:32:21 i can't do any output unless i take Graphics everywhere and no other output can be done 21:32:31 guess i could use exceptions... 21:32:36 or something 21:32:38 my point is 21:32:46 RodgerTheGreat: did you know i'm a lazy guy? 21:32:49 that's all. 21:53:41 -!- ihope has joined. 21:53:59 oklopol: I see you've managed to get #kilbot. 22:09:12 oklopol: you can use System.out.println if you run appletviewer from the console 22:44:04 Every once in a while, one comes across a product whose existance one had never previously expected: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vjM1J_23QJo 22:44:39 Though some of the gags in Space Balls should have been a giveaway. 22:54:08 -!- GregorR-L has joined. 22:54:14 I made a sprite-based 3D engine in JavaScript :P 22:54:35 this internet connection is terrible 23:00:33 http://gregorr.homelinux.org/js3d/3d.html 23:02:06 what can you do in that? 23:02:14 bsmntbombdood: it allows AOL users to reach you? 23:02:40 oklopol: Just move around, but it's the basis for a 3D engine 23:03:49 can you rotate now? 23:04:00 if you can, i didn't find the key 23:04:11 i mean, can you do anything 3d yet? 23:04:21 oklopol: the arrow keys change your angle and move you back and forward 23:04:31 oh 23:04:39 thus you can walk round it you see it from different angles 23:04:42 i though they moved me sideways 23:04:45 the rotation is very slow though 23:04:50 not sideways 23:04:55 A = angle 23:05:19 SimonRC: Is it slow as in low framerate, or just slow? I mean, it is pretty slow :P 23:19:21 -!- RedDak has quit (Remote closed the connection). 23:21:26 -!- sebbu has quit ("@+"). 23:29:59 you have to hold the button down for many seconds on my box to doa 360 degree turn 23:32:19 -!- oerjan has joined. 23:33:16 SimonRC: Oh, right, that turning - yeah, that's slow :P 23:34:49 Seriously, that is a sick and pointless abuse of Javascript. 23:34:55 8-D 23:35:04 I think Google might be interested. 23:35:10 lol 23:35:18 Only once I turn it into a WiiFPS :P 23:35:21 ;-) 23:47:00 -!- jix has quit ("CommandQ").