00:00:30 <Figs> @ is an input/output channel
00:00:56 <Figs> ^,>,v,< are directors
00:01:12 <Figs> anything from any direction hitting it is directed in the direction
00:01:30 <Figs> (, ), u, n are 1 way objects
00:01:39 <Figs> if you hit it from the c<--- side
00:01:45 <Figs> it goes through
00:01:50 <Figs> but from the ---> c side
00:02:04 <Figs> Q is a destructable object
00:02:09 <Figs> when hit with a pulse
00:02:17 <Figs> it disappears taking the pulse with it
00:02:47 <Figs> so the key to my and gate is simply that you destroy the two Qs and the output can go through\
00:02:53 <Figs> but if you don't, you won't get anything
00:03:10 <Figs> each box is instantaneous
00:04:00 <Figs> if you put a @ inside the box (not in the walls) it will work as a kill button
00:04:14 <Figs> hitting the kill button causes the output
00:04:28 <Figs> otherwise the box runs until there is no more to do
00:04:36 <Figs> (ie, all pulses are dead)
00:04:58 <Figs> # is a permanent wall
00:05:43 <Figs> % fires pulses in all directions ^,>,v,< when hit (maybe I wasn't clear)
00:05:48 <Figs> does my example make sense?
00:06:10 <Figs> I haven't figured out how to do io yet
00:07:01 <Figs> or variables :S
00:07:51 <ehird`> why have variables in a language like that? just have a memory cell
00:08:12 <Figs> well, just the equivalent, I mean
00:09:19 <Figs> got any idea how to do IO?
00:10:12 <ehird`> umm, input device when hit freezes the sim, gets input, then emits the characters like a memory cell would do
00:10:23 <ehird`> output just eats up the characters from a memory cell/similar and prints it
00:10:35 <Figs> how would you do a memory cell?
00:10:40 <Figs> all boxes are instantaneous
00:10:43 <ehird`> take a look at Game of Life memory cells
00:10:46 <ehird`> something along those lines.
00:11:59 <Figs> I should create a toggle object
00:12:45 <Figs> I could represent it by X/O
00:12:53 <Figs> and use something else as the switch
00:12:58 <ehird`> anyway, a memory cell basically just continuously emits bits in the format accepted by gates, etc.
00:13:40 <Figs> maybe I should just not have the compressor
00:13:47 <Figs> and make it more interesting?
00:13:56 <Figs> @ could then be a trigger
00:14:05 <Figs> and something else can be kill
00:14:31 <Figs> nono, we'll make Y be the switch and @ will stay as kill
00:14:50 <Figs> Y will toggle any X's or O's next to it
00:15:11 <Figs> if something is hit from both sides by an O it will be emitted on both sides
00:17:06 <ihope> You should use the vi keys for some things. :-)
00:17:29 <Figs> what do they do?
00:17:55 <ihope> y = NW, u = NE, h = W, j = S, k = N, l = E, b = SW, n = SE
00:18:19 <ehird`> i already used those as directions in a fungeoid
00:18:23 <ehird`> i (C)'d their 2-d use.
00:18:39 <Figs> I'm only doing 4 directions
00:18:57 <Figs> keeps me sane :)
00:19:04 <ihope> ehird`: what's that fungeoid?
00:19:13 <ehird`> ihope, well it's only on my harddrive
00:19:17 <oklopol> what is the logic in those letters?
00:19:21 <ehird`> but it's tentatively entitled "Not a Fungeoid"
00:19:32 <ehird`> put your fingers on it
00:19:39 <ehird`> h and l are at the left/right extremes
00:19:42 <ehird`> j and k are what's left
00:19:49 <pikhq> 'Not A Real Fungeoid': NARF
00:19:50 <ehird`> the other keys are around those.
00:19:51 <ihope> oklopol: y, u, b and n are arranged that way, h and l as well, j and k... not so much, but they're also all close together.
00:19:58 <ehird`> vi was invented before arrow keys ;)
00:20:06 <ihope> Also, can you think of something better? :-)
00:20:31 <ihope> ...I guess you could use keys that are actually arranged that way.
00:21:02 <Figs> although, if we were going to use those for directions, I'd think we'd use
00:21:32 <oklopol> err... those are just random letters :|
00:21:50 <ehird`> you ARE on qwerty right
00:22:08 * Figs shall stick to the ><<^n
00:22:19 <ehird`> oklopol, then you're blind. =)
00:22:22 <ihope> hjkl are arranged such that you can put your fingers on them nicely, indeed.
00:22:51 <ihope> yubn are arranged nicely, too, but why it's yubn and not uinm is... a mystery.
00:22:51 <Figs> actually, I think that
00:22:57 <Figs> sefd would be better
00:23:04 <pikhq> Figs: I do it with just ^v.
00:23:15 <Figs> sedf isn't bad though
00:23:22 <pikhq> (of course, I have instructions changing the dimension being modified. . .)
00:23:33 <oklopol> ehird`: now that i actually checked them all out, it's pretty sane
00:23:49 <Figs> should I write this in C++ or in GML?
00:23:55 <ehird`> GML = game maker language?
00:24:13 <Figs> then I don't write it :)
00:24:27 <ehird`> do what everyone else does, put it on the wiki until someone else writes it :P
00:24:42 <Figs> well, I could write it in GM, and have a gui interface
00:24:51 <Figs> I could write it in C++ and it'd be portable
00:24:57 <Figs> but command-line only
00:25:15 <Figs> the program would be limited to the size of the command line, most likely
00:25:20 <pikhq> Or you could write it using C++ and Qt 4, and it'd be portable and GUI.
00:25:29 <Figs> I don't know Qt4
00:25:50 <ehird`> Also, you could write it in ANSI C and have it command-line only but awesome and portable and fast and.
00:26:14 <Figs> If I make it at all, it'd only be in languages with libraries that I already know
00:26:18 <ehird`> Or you could write it in something odd like Lua
00:26:38 <Figs> I know! I'll write it Befuge or Brainfuck!
00:26:48 <Figs> I know neither though :P
00:27:11 <Figs> but you have to admit, an esolang interpretter written in another esolang would be pretty funny ;)
00:27:20 <pikhq> Brainfuck's actually really nowhere near as hard as it's made out to be. . .
00:27:46 <ehird`> Figs, yes - so funny in that it's been done thousands of times
00:28:12 <ihope> You don't know BF?
00:28:21 <Figs> never bothered with it ;0
00:28:32 <pikhq> Figs: The only hard part about Brainfuck is that it doesn't have a sizeable standard library. ;)
00:28:42 <pikhq> It's *almost* like doing C without libc.
00:28:43 <Figs> You write a interpreter for this then :)
00:28:51 <pikhq> (well, except that C has better primatives)
00:28:51 <ehird`> c without libc is harder.
00:29:00 <pikhq> ehird`: Not really.
00:29:25 <oklopol> well i hear there's something called pebble in which it's much simpler
00:29:38 <pikhq> w00t, someone else whoring my language. :p
00:30:13 <Figs> maybe I can do it in C++ with SDL
00:30:47 <pikhq> There's a thought, except that SDL is *really* primitive.
00:30:59 <Figs> for what I'm doing
00:31:01 <Figs> (just the runner)
00:31:20 <Figs> all I really need is to be able to put graphics on the screen and set the size of the window....
00:31:26 <Figs> and get a couple keystrokes
00:31:40 <ihope> Somebody should invent a GUI that... is really nice?
00:31:47 <Figs> someone should
00:32:38 <Figs> Someone should write a good tutorial on the parts of a GUI
00:32:56 <Figs> since there are a lot of elements in common useage across different platforms
00:33:14 <pikhq> pack [label .l -text "Hello, world!"];pack [button .b -text "Exit." -command exit]
00:33:33 * Figs doesn't know Tcl/Tk, obviously :)
00:33:44 <Figs> well, I've read the tutorial on Tcl a while back...
00:33:53 <Figs> that doesn't mean I know it
00:34:02 -!- ehird` has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
00:34:14 <pikhq> pack is the Tk command to add something to a window using the "pack" widget manager.
00:34:44 <Figs> how do you know where it will show up O.o?
00:34:57 <pikhq> s/widget/geometry/
00:35:23 <pikhq> "pack" tries to do it automagically; there's two other geometry managers that you can use to specify location.
00:35:43 <pikhq> You can do some amount of that with pack, but there comes a point where you should use something else.
00:35:46 <Figs> zyxwvutsrqponmlkjihgfedcba!
00:36:46 <pikhq> >----[<+++>--]<.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.>----[<->----]<-.
00:36:54 <ihope> Maybe programs should just leave out the front end.
00:37:58 <Figs> what does that do?
00:38:43 <pikhq> Outputs the string you said.
00:39:22 <pikhq> (the PEBBLE that was generated from was: source ^stdcons.bfm;@ temp1;@ temp2;stringout "zyxwvutsrqponmlkjihgfedcba!" : temp1 temp2)
00:41:33 <pikhq> (PEBBLE code, BTW, is technically 100% valid Tcl code, syntactically)
00:44:22 <oklopol> pikhq: stop that, i'm reading physics and you are forcing me to learn pebble.
00:44:57 <pikhq> oklopol: Stop reading physics, then. :p
00:45:04 <oklopol> the awesome is tickling my brain in a funny way
00:45:46 <Figs> anyone got a song to sing the alphabet backwards?
00:45:57 <pikhq> oklopol: Then come back just as soon as you're done.
00:48:07 <oklopol> Figs: record us you singing it, that's not very clear.
00:48:08 <Figs> but the nm ... screws me up
00:48:36 <oklopol> well, you can also tell me the notes
00:48:44 <oklopol> but that's a rare talent :|
00:49:31 <pikhq> oklopol: You're not reading physics now, are you.
00:49:31 <Figs> (quarter) Middle C, G G, (16) F E, (8) D [bar] E F (dotted quarter) E
00:49:43 <Figs> that's ZYXWVUT
00:49:53 <Figs> play at around 120
00:49:55 <pikhq> Now, let me fill you in on the sheer awesomeness of PEBBLE some more.
00:50:16 <pikhq> The PEBBLE parser *is* the Tcl parser; I just start up a slave interp, remove Tcl commands, and bind in PEBBLE ones.
00:50:44 <Figs> I thought about
00:51:06 <Figs> so you can check you're on track
00:51:15 <pikhq> Figs: Use GNU Lilypad notation or something.
00:51:31 <Figs> 8th rest, (8) high C, G [bar] A A (dot Q) G
00:51:44 <Figs> well when I get a full thing, I'll just upload the midi
00:52:11 <Figs> zyxwvutsrqponmlkjihgfedcba
00:52:15 <Figs> (for reference)
00:52:25 <Figs> NMLKJ is the next bit
00:52:32 <Figs> maybe I can make that rising
00:52:34 <pikhq> Like I said: use GNU Lilypad notation.
00:52:48 <pikhq> That way, one can generate sheet music that I can read. ;)
00:52:56 <Figs> that's dotted quarter
00:53:17 <Figs> I don't know lilypad's notation
00:53:58 <pikhq> Blargh. Wrong name, anyways.
00:55:11 <oklopol> well, i can't tell from that little whether that was just a fluke of a random generator, but sounds promising sofar :P
00:55:35 <oklopol> i've made generators with a bit of brain for that
00:55:49 <pikhq> Figs: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GNU_LilyPond
00:55:53 <oklopol> you sometimes get pretty playable riffs
00:55:54 <Figs> I know what it is
00:55:57 <Figs> I just don't know it pikhq
00:56:39 <Figs> what level is 4?
00:56:48 <Figs> C4 = Middle C?
00:56:58 <Figs> my program uses C5 = middle, but some people use different
00:57:03 <pikhq> oklopol: American.
00:57:27 <oklopol> This file uses Finnish note names (for example, where
00:57:47 <oklopol> i'm pretty sure they aren't officially "Finnish note names"
00:58:23 <Figs> I could screw you all up by saying quavers and quarter notes alternatively... and sometimes using DO RE ME... and other times A B C :)
00:58:47 <pikhq> I can't really read music without typeset sheet music.
00:58:53 <Figs> actually it's quaver -> 8th
00:58:55 <oklopol> i've never liked anything about the note systems
00:58:59 <pikhq> (that being what I usually read from)
00:59:20 <oklopol> Figs: i'm pretty sure i've done more with music than you if that was a brag :)
00:59:32 <Figs> no that wasn't a brag, that was humor :)
00:59:58 <Figs> since you're talking about where people are and note names
01:00:18 <Figs> oh. So you just made me kill my joke for nothing ;(
01:00:21 <oklopol> (but only in my head, prolly, because i don't really see the gag)
01:00:39 <Figs> they don't say "quaver" in the US
01:00:57 <oklopol> actually i'm pretty sure mine wasn't a joke, but i'm also sure i meant to make it one :P
01:01:01 <Figs> (not anywhere I've been, actually)
01:01:15 <oklopol> i don't know the music vocabulary
01:01:24 <oklopol> just that it sucks in all ways possible
01:01:34 <Figs> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quaver
01:02:08 <oklopol> yeah, you said it somewhere already
01:02:43 <Figs> I just misread "mensural notation" very badly >.<
01:03:51 <Figs> but that's not what it is
01:03:57 <Figs> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mensural_notation
01:04:14 <oklopol> i should make a notation system that uses an unlambdaish syntax
01:04:23 <oklopol> because today i realized it's the syntax of gods
01:04:48 <oklopol> okay, about 50 words read about physics
01:05:00 <Figs> now you have 51
01:05:09 * Figs runs around like a rabid monkey
01:05:37 <Figs> my rhythms just don't sound good for this song.
01:06:58 <oklopol> hmm, that notation looks like something i've been working on
01:07:27 <oklopol> i've thought about making a *good* notation system and translating a number of pieces on it
01:07:53 <oklopol> it would be cool to have a database where you could for example search for the name of the piece just by remembering one of it's riffs
01:08:10 <oklopol> something very simple to do, and something no one seems to have done yet
01:08:55 <oklopol> (it's a simple comparison because you don't have the same problem with strings that "asdfasdfasdf" and "basdfasdfasdf" should be considered almost the same)
01:09:34 <Figs> actually, you should be considering the intervals
01:09:53 <oklopol> it's just o(12n) to check every key
01:10:11 <oklopol> and everything would naturally be represented without key information even present
01:10:21 <oklopol> since that is in no way crucial to the song
01:11:02 <oklopol> (okay, i admit there was one composed whose pieces actually sound worse played in the wrong key even if you don't have an absolute note ear or whatever it's called)
01:13:17 <oklopol> i remember analysing one of his pieces for hours and not finding a single note that could be changed
01:13:50 <Figs> did you search for pairs of notes? :P
01:14:40 <Figs> well, if you're just looking at one note at a time
01:14:50 <Figs> and he's got a chord going on
01:15:22 <Figs> what about shifting a section? :P
01:15:33 <oklopol> i know every note by heart, and yes, i did look at how the arpeggios are laid out
01:15:42 <oklopol> in relation to the other hand
01:16:00 <Figs> which piece is it? :P
01:16:13 <oklopol> well, shifting the whole piece is a nop
01:16:27 <oklopol> and other shifts cannot be done with still keeping it bach
01:16:49 <oklopol> bach and other classic stuff always has a clear transition
01:17:02 <oklopol> i should create one to make a shift possible
01:17:28 <oklopol> which would change the whole image, since the piece is very dense in structure
01:17:48 <Figs> you've totally lost me :)
01:17:58 <oklopol> sorry, i use my own words :<
01:18:12 * Figs hands you some chinese words to see if they work better
01:18:45 <oklopol> i've never seen any text about analysing music
01:18:52 <oklopol> i've never even heard snyone do that except me
01:19:23 <oklopol> most musicians i know (and i know >30) would find it somehow bad to start analysing music at all
01:19:26 * Figs points to music theory
01:19:44 <oklopol> i don't know that, if you have a book of some sort, i'd like to read :)
01:19:46 <Figs> there's a whole disciple devoted to analyzing music ;)
01:19:56 <Figs> Chord structure, etc
01:20:00 <oklopol> i know the basics, but it seems it stops there
01:20:01 <Figs> progressions...
01:20:25 <RodgerTheGreat> I've taken an introductory music course- classical music in general follows a number of basic forms. It's not unlike the structure of poetry
01:20:52 * Figs points to books on the structure of fugues
01:20:55 <oklopol> if you know anything mathematical written about music, i'd like to see
01:21:29 <oklopol> i mean, of course, after the basics, which everyone knows
01:21:35 <GregorR-L> You should talk to my friend Eric.
01:21:47 <RodgerTheGreat> hm. I wonder how well high-order markov chains would deal with music.
01:21:55 <Figs> what about something like this?
01:21:55 <Figs> http://www.teoria.com/articulos/analysis/BWV846/index.htm
01:22:04 <GregorR-L> He's a musician, but is also quite intelligent mathematically, and can casually talk about harmonics, sound-wave interference, etc, etc.
01:22:16 <Figs> hmm, mathematical, huh?
01:24:26 <oklopol> Figs: that's not very low-level
01:24:39 <oklopol> just looking for repetition :|
01:25:33 <oklopol> GregorR-L: all i can say is i wish my musician friends were like that :)
01:26:19 <Figs> I don't know what you mean for sure then
01:27:00 <oklopol> Figs: perhaps i'll show you some day.
01:27:50 <Figs> what do you mean by low-level though?
01:28:31 <RodgerTheGreat> oklopol: have you written anything in terms of an oklotalk spec?
01:29:11 <oklopol> yes, i wrote a partial one for parsing
01:29:45 <oklopol> and also 2 parsers, but it's just pretty fucking complex to get working :|
01:30:40 <oklopol> http://vjn.fi/mb/index.php?p=oklotalkspec
01:30:50 <oklopol> i made this for ihope, it's a quick hack, mostly
01:30:52 * Figs prods okolopol
01:31:15 <oklopol> i have a more complete one, 20 pages or smth, but it's outdated partly, i'm not gonna upload it :)
01:31:30 * oklopol enjoys the prod and waits for more
01:31:33 <Figs> What do you mean by .low-level?
01:32:03 <oklopol> the actual notes aren't actually considered at all
01:32:25 <RodgerTheGreat> hm. I guess it's rather difficult to get a sense of the language from just parsing rules
01:32:57 <Figs> C ->> i@ |\ \\eq >>V 4! My new language! there's only one legal sentance in it, and that's it. :)
01:32:57 <oklopol> RodgerTheGreat: everything is everything (as opposed to everything is and object), everything is as dense as possible
01:33:20 <oklopol> those were my goals in designing it
01:33:41 <oklopol> yeah, i remember looking at it
01:34:24 <oklopol> do [a - b] to [5, 2] into [result] or something
01:34:45 <RodgerTheGreat> I think I'll do some work on my specs this weekend, and maybe start hammering out some BNF
01:37:10 * Figs hands bsmntbombdood some sheets
01:37:28 * Figs snatches them back then.
01:37:49 * Figs lights them on fire then gives them back.
01:39:24 <bsmntbombdood> you lost a pair of sheets and i got a nice warm dinner!
01:39:38 * Figs hands bsmntbombdood some shoe-leather
01:40:29 * Figs grabs the fire.
01:40:58 * Figs indicates the shoe-leather has a magic charm in it
01:41:12 * Figs , unhurt by the flames begins to run off.
01:41:35 <GregorR-L> I'll bet eating shoe leather would be a reaaaaaally bad idea for me X-D
01:42:18 <GregorR-L> I'm allergic to a chemical used to tan most leather. I only know the skin reaction :P
01:43:19 <bsmntbombdood> you could have done naughty things with my bodily juices, but you decided to burn them
01:44:57 * Figs takes the now burned sheets and casts a spell on it that cause the spirits of the body-juices to transform into fluid ninjas! "Attack!" cries Figs into the night, directing his gremlins to bsmntbombdood.
01:45:09 * Figs waits for the one-up wtfer
01:45:52 <Figs> I said spirits! :) I'm stealing their hidden stash of alcohol.
01:46:21 * Figs wonders if he's reached WTF status yet... :S
01:47:35 <Figs> did I simultaneously get ignored by the entire channel for wtf-ness? :(
01:48:24 * Figs gets bored and calls off the weird army.
01:48:38 <Figs> `ello out there?!
01:49:06 <bsmntbombdood> An Algorithm for Optimal Lambda Calculus Reduction!?!?!!!?!
01:49:50 <Figs> http://fortran.com/
01:49:59 <Figs> this site looks like it hasn't been changed since the 90s
01:50:47 <bsmntbombdood> someone should write an imperative->functional compiler
01:51:13 <Figs> sounds like one of the weird ideas I'd had for my language
01:51:23 <Figs> except that it was imperative -> functional -> imperative
01:51:41 <Figs> yes. I know how useful that sounds.
01:53:12 <GregorR-L> Every functional language compiler and/or interpreter does functional -> imperative.
01:53:34 <bsmntbombdood> of course, that's why i suggested imperative->functional
01:53:55 <Figs> I wasn't talking about like
01:53:59 <Figs> C -> Haskell -> C
01:54:16 <bsmntbombdood> so imperative languages can target super efficient lambda machines
01:54:16 <Figs> I meant internally represented in the intermediate stage as a functional program
01:55:09 <Figs> I don't know, maybe I'm mistaken, but the whole thing is a lot like monads, isn't it?
01:55:24 <Figs> imperative in functional by being sequential
02:08:31 -!- calamari has quit ("Leaving").
02:15:11 -!- GregorR-L has changed nick to Kris.
02:16:45 -!- Kris has changed nick to GregorR-L.
02:22:13 <Sukoshi> I found a Fortran book at Borders.
02:22:29 <Sukoshi> There are more Lisp books than there are Fortran books :)
02:23:40 <pikhq> In other news, there are more C books than ALGOL books. :p
02:24:13 <Sukoshi> Actually, one language outdoes even Java books.
02:24:29 -!- bsmntbombdood has changed nick to bsmntgoat.
02:26:16 <Sukoshi> C has only 7 books. Two copies of the same algorithm book, one more book on algorithms, one book on general C, and The C Programming Language.
02:26:20 -!- bsmntgoat has changed nick to bsmntbombdood.
02:26:31 <Sukoshi> It's almost extinct too, but less so than C.
02:27:01 <Sukoshi> This is what happens when you take away the REPL/interactive environment.
02:27:39 <pikhq> UML makes baby Jesus cry; everytime you code in it, God kills a kitten, and it watches child porn.
02:27:59 <Sukoshi> bsmntbombdood: I'm an engineer, not a weenie ;)
02:28:05 <pikhq> Sukoshi is *firmly* a Lisp girl, anyways.
02:28:15 <Figs> sukoshi is a girl?
02:28:23 <Sukoshi> Lisp and Smalltalk are my favorites.
02:28:34 <Sukoshi> It's just that I like doing practical things.
02:28:38 * Figs is confused :P
02:29:09 <pikhq> Sukoshi: Java only makes baby Jesus cry.
02:29:11 * Figs doesn't like Java much.... at least not right now.
02:29:32 <Sukoshi> I think Java's nice. Not innovative, but nice.
02:29:41 <pikhq> I like languages that encourage me to hack.
02:29:53 <Figs> Does assembly make Djikstra cry too?
02:29:55 <pikhq> RodgerTheGreat: Not true. BASIC only makes adults cry.
02:30:15 <Figs> jmp, jmp, jmp! jne!
02:30:26 <pikhq> Figs: Probably do.
02:30:40 <pikhq> PEBBLE for the total victory.
02:30:49 <Figs> Djikstra was the guy who wrote 'Goto considered harmful' though, wasn't he? :P
02:30:51 <pikhq> bsmntbombdood: Goto Considered Harmful, thanks.
02:30:59 <pikhq> Figs: Sure as hell was.
02:31:14 <pikhq> RodgerTheGreat: You. . . LIKE Goto?!?
02:31:37 <pikhq> bsmntbombdood: If you're a good programmer, then you don't know the meaning of the word "Goto". :p
02:31:37 <Sukoshi> Useful in a few spare situations.
02:31:43 <Figs> we could be programming in spaghetti :)
02:31:45 <RodgerTheGreat> BASIC is my favorite language, actually. I consider myself a Ninja.
02:32:00 <Sukoshi> Where it's useful, it's very useful. Where it's not ... it's annoying and spaghetting-inducing.
02:32:06 <pikhq> RodgerTheGreat: I consider you someone who brings a knife to a gunfight.
02:32:28 <GregorR-L> A LISPer is somebody who brings a knife to a gunfight.
02:32:33 <RodgerTheGreat> I doubt you've ever leveraged the language like I have, pikhq
02:33:22 <RodgerTheGreat> Once you start injecting inline assembly and heavily self-modifying, it transcends being a "beginner's language".
02:33:39 <GregorR-L> He's running while being mowed down by a machine gun, then stabs the fuck out of the gunner, breathes hard a few times and screams dramatically. He's fine.
02:34:56 <Figs> ... yeah, that was irrelevant. :)
02:35:56 <RodgerTheGreat> BASIC is not the language I use most commonly, but it is my oldest weapon, and I treat it with tremendous respect. I'm not one to callously discard the tools I once cherished.
02:35:57 <oklopol> i've read another page of physics.
02:36:29 <Figs> playing the beep 60 times a second sounds awful
02:37:11 <oklopol> once again i gotta advertise
02:37:11 <oklopol> http://www.vjn.fi/s/beepiano.py
02:37:56 * Figs is writing that befunge-like system
02:38:08 <Figs> whatever you want to call it
02:40:26 <oklopol> also, http://vjn.fi/s/black.mp3
02:40:34 <oklopol> though i'm not sure that's worth hearing :DF
02:41:18 <Figs> is that you typing the song?
02:41:41 <oklopol> that was like a 5 hour train
02:41:55 <oklopol> well, i also though a lot about fingering and such
02:41:59 <Figs> would it look like qweriqpdsfohaerpfjsfdgijqrotiqpwrejg if you typed it?
02:42:24 <oklopol> well, i know it by heart, so
02:42:36 <oklopol> fnyngntnfnyngntnfunuyugutunuyugucygytyfycygytgyufn yngntnfnynygntnf
02:43:12 <oklopol> i guess you wouldn't know finnish heavy metal from 15 years ago
02:43:20 -!- jix has quit ("CommandQ").
02:43:23 <Figs> it sounds sort of familiar, but no
02:43:28 <oklopol> stratovarius - black diamond is you wanna hear the original :D
02:44:02 -!- ihope has quit (Connection timed out).
02:44:02 <oklopol> (and it's a full piece, mine is just a few riffs from it)
02:44:21 <oklopol> because it's pretty hard playing with the keyboard, believe me
02:45:29 <oklopol> you should've seen me record it
02:45:52 <oklopol> crouching naked my face 5 inches from the screen
02:46:00 <oklopol> i guess you'd not enjoy the nakedness
02:46:22 <RodgerTheGreat> that's somewhat more disturbing than my mental image. :S
02:47:31 <oklopol> i don't generally use clothes...
02:47:52 <RodgerTheGreat> but that has more to do with my having a roommate than any deepseated objection to it, I guess
02:47:52 <Figs> [18:46:51] oklopol: i don't generally use clothes... <-- can I quote you on that?
02:47:56 <oklopol> i do when i go out, but it's redundant in the summer
02:48:22 <Figs> I made a simple pulsator in with my program, but it isn't working well :(
02:48:42 <Figs> "[18:46:51] oklopol: i don't generally use clothes..." on it?
02:48:50 <oklopol> heh, i have a commodore 64
02:49:00 <oklopol> who else thinks it'd be awesome to use irc on that?
02:49:16 <Figs> or you mean irc in the nude?
02:49:55 <oklopol> that'd be the case, most likely.
02:49:59 <Figs> just don't turn on any webcams :)
02:50:04 <RodgerTheGreat> which is STRIKING PROOF that I am badly in need of a life
02:50:32 <oklopol> it might be hard to get ethernetish output from the game controller ports :P
02:50:33 <Figs> no, but if you're in the nude on a C64 and someone sees your web-cam...
02:50:45 <Figs> (connected to your other machine...)
02:50:48 <oklopol> it'd be more an engineering job than a coding job
02:50:57 <RodgerTheGreat> oklopol: you seriously need to get an ethernet interface for that baby and install contiki, or give the commie to me an I WILL
02:51:22 <RodgerTheGreat> ethernet interfaces for the C64 are readily available online
02:51:26 <oklopol> RodgerTheGreat: if you actually know how one could do that, i'm gonna make it
02:51:48 <RodgerTheGreat> I dunno how to *make* one myself, but I could find somewhere you could buy one
02:51:52 <oklopol> i can program the raw output for internet connexxion, but i can't actually get the wires to work
02:52:09 <oklopol> i could just buy one, never occurred to me :D
02:52:28 <RodgerTheGreat> and Contiki is a multitasking OS for the C64 (complete with GUI) that provides things like a web browser and so on
02:52:32 <oklopol> still easy to get stuff for c64 you say?
02:52:47 <oklopol> i hoped i'd have to make that myself :<
02:52:54 <Figs> I've made ethernet cables before :)
02:53:01 <Figs> we had to do it in tech class
02:53:22 <Figs> and I did the wiring for a wall socket in that class once
02:53:27 <bsmntbombdood> you can put 4 twisted pairs together?!?! cool, dude!
02:53:31 <Figs> but I don't know how to do the rest of it for the other thing
02:53:37 <RodgerTheGreat> plus you can always roll your own distro- the default one still has ~14k or so for additional user apps
02:53:58 <RodgerTheGreat> there's a telnet client, but you could still code an IRC client for it
02:54:14 <Figs> or just use telnet
02:54:31 <Figs> but I find that unenjoyable usually
02:54:36 <oklopol> RodgerTheGreat: well, making a client would be pretty sweet as well :)
02:54:49 <RodgerTheGreat> a friend of mine uses IRC-over-telnet quite frequently
02:55:05 <Figs> I used to until I realized I was wasting my time. :)
02:55:18 <Figs> it's useful for debugging bots and things, imo
02:55:56 <oklopol> i'd make a graphical client of course.
02:56:08 <Figs> send me a copy?
02:56:15 <Figs> not of the sex.
02:56:17 <Figs> just the client :)
02:56:20 <oklopol> but i have to get the machine first
02:56:53 <Figs> bsmnt, you want to see oklopol sex0rz with the machine? O.o
02:57:20 <oklopol> it'd only be like the coolest thing in the world to make an irc client on that
02:57:48 <oklopol> i'm gonna go get it now, our sommerhome is just like 10 miles from here
02:57:55 <oklopol> why do i use miles and inches
02:58:05 <Figs> you've been corrupted :)
02:58:32 <Figs> Gnark measurement for the win!
02:58:49 <Figs> One bloot is equal 6.257 blarks.
02:58:50 <oklopol> we should just measure in plancks
02:59:01 <Figs> walk the planck!
02:59:22 <pikhq> RodgerTheGreat: I recommend porting Gregor's RawIRC. ;)
02:59:34 <oklopol> i've never seen a guy have sex with a computer, so i'd actually *want* to see it.
02:59:51 <RodgerTheGreat> http://www.jac64.com/demos-amp-music/play-62.html <- c64 emulator + contiki
03:00:12 <Figs> I've never seen a man have sex with a donkey either, but that doesn't mean I want to watch.
03:00:32 <pikhq> RodgerTheGreat: What I truly want to try is that C64 UNIX clone.
03:00:51 <oklokok> Figs: i'm not touching that, but you heard my general rule.
03:01:12 <Figs> oklokok == oklopol?
03:01:48 <oklokok> i randomly change computer
03:02:12 <oklokok> oklopol, oklokok, oklofok, ^__^ and minimall are the ones i usually use
03:02:22 <oklokok> minimall when i'm at a friend's house
03:02:31 <oklokok> oklokok and oklofok are just for fun.
03:02:40 <oklokok> oklopol has a long history
03:02:51 <Figs> I can't stop listening to your typing song
03:02:57 <Figs> in spite of the weird story behind it
03:03:36 <oklokok> hmm... i guess i'll also advertize my bands, then.
03:03:38 <RodgerTheGreat> oklokok: figure out some way to produce a (non-nekkid, please) video of yourself playing that song
03:04:06 <oklokok> http://www.mikseri.net/artists/?id=62623
03:04:13 <RodgerTheGreat> I think I'm not the only one here that would enjoy seeing one
03:04:21 <oklokok> http://www.mikseri.net/artists/?id=44508
03:04:39 <oklokok> RodgerTheGreat: i can do that if i find a webcam somewhere
03:04:52 <Figs> did I share the program that plays mario/zelda/Fur Elise?
03:04:55 <oklokok> my pants seem to be on the floor.
03:05:11 <Figs> let me see if I can find it
03:05:14 <Figs> it was a real wtf piece
03:05:18 <oklokok> i remember doing that on basic
03:06:01 <oklokok> i mean, composing stuff and making it play existing malodies
03:06:16 <Figs> I put in the three songs by hand
03:06:18 <oklokok> but you can oly get so far with one note at the time
03:06:30 <Figs> I still have the source I think
03:07:58 <Figs> http://www.megaupload.com/?d=GUWUXEBC
03:08:11 * oklokok used to play fur elise on the keyboards
03:08:44 <Figs> it's all done with the windows 'beep' command :)
03:08:45 <oklokok> omg russian bitches just for me
03:09:07 <oklokok> ok, figured out how that works
03:09:17 <oklokok> the download-button was well hidden
03:09:30 <Figs> I don't see ads
03:09:42 * Figs walks around with ad-block on while online
03:10:01 <oklokok> nothing wrong with a nekkid chick :P
03:12:55 <oklopol> i wasn't listening that carefully though, i'll check
03:13:11 <Figs> remember, I put it all in by hand
03:13:18 <Figs> so I wouldn't be surprised
03:13:33 <oklopol> it was too loud (5 am, block of flats), so i had to put the volume down, which took me about 3 min :P
03:14:34 <oklopol> double note(int a){return 440*2^(a/12.0)} anyway
03:14:41 <oklopol> and you'll get the frequency
03:14:49 <oklopol> though i guess that's obvious and you did that
03:15:01 <oklokok> hmm, what was i doing now...
03:15:35 <oklokok> just hard to tell where it is
03:15:44 <oklokok> can you put in numbers for each note played?
03:15:50 <oklokok> or do you have the source?
03:15:59 <Figs> I'm looking for my source
03:16:07 <Figs> I've found one copy, but it seems old
03:16:26 <Figs> I know there's an error about 'clear'
03:16:50 <Figs> I had a program called batch on my old machine called 'clear' that did 'cls'
03:16:59 <Figs> after you listen to a song all the way through
03:17:04 <Figs> it will give you an error about no clear
03:17:12 <Figs> unless you have a clear cmd on your computer
03:17:27 <oklokok> you have 2 errors, but that's because of CV
03:17:48 <oklokok> i always use cv and no one gets it :)
03:17:58 <Figs> I just didn't think of it
03:18:07 <pikhq> Figs: "clear" should be valid on any UNIX. . . But *why* are you doing system("clear"); ?
03:18:13 <oklokok> but it's a damn complex rhythm
03:18:22 <Figs> pikhq: I wrote it on windows
03:18:41 <Figs> I was doing it to clear the screen for the menu
03:18:47 <pikhq> Then obviously you should run it in Cygwin.
03:18:54 <Figs> I wrote it for windows :)
03:18:58 <Figs> and I made a typo
03:19:05 <Figs> clear instead of cls
03:19:19 <pikhq> And Cygwin is a Windows library and set of programs.
03:19:35 <pikhq> . . . Fine, so it's a complete POSIX environment in userspace. . .
03:19:48 <Figs> I know what cygwin is
03:19:55 <Figs> I used to have it on my old computer
03:20:10 <Figs> as well as a set of custom batches and programs pointed to by my path
03:20:20 <pikhq> I used to use it when I had to run Windows on a regular basis.
03:20:30 <Figs> I put cygwin's bin in my path
03:20:35 <Figs> so I could do ls, grep, etc from cmd
03:20:36 <oklokok> Figs: did you have the score with you when writing fur elise?
03:20:57 <Figs> I don't have perfect pitch :(
03:21:04 <oklokok> you don't need that for it.
03:21:15 <oklokok> perfect pitch is only needed for the first note
03:21:19 <Figs> well, I didn't have a copy of the song either :P
03:21:32 <Figs> I suck at transcribing by ear :)
03:21:33 <oklokok> anyone can deduce any note given the frequency of another note
03:21:55 <Figs> that's not strictly true
03:21:55 <oklokok> i mean, theoretically even without a perfect pitch
03:22:07 <oklokok> Figs: anyone can learn that, i mean
03:22:14 <Figs> no, there are people who can't :)
03:22:22 * Figs points out the deaf people and babies.
03:22:28 <Figs> not to mention the dead ;)
03:22:37 <oklokok> guess so, but perfect pitch is like language, you cannot learn it thoroughly unless you learn it when young
03:23:33 <oklokok> i've used hundreds of hours trying to get me one, but i still rarely know a note unless i hear hZ 440 first to scale with
03:23:51 <oklokok> (or some other known frequency)
03:24:11 <oklokok> Figs: fur elise was perfect
03:24:40 <oklokok> can you add note numbers so i can fix the first pieces?
03:24:50 <Figs> if I can find the code
03:25:06 <oklokok> actually, i'd rather do it straight from the code
03:25:21 <oklokok> guess i'd still need the numbers
03:25:44 <oklokok> i can't exactly play a Beep(delay, freq) in my head :P
03:25:52 <Figs> actually, it's worse than that
03:26:18 <Figs> elise.tone(e,n16);
03:26:42 <Figs> I have it all wrapped as calls like that
03:26:51 <oklokok> i could prolly correct it straight from the source then
03:27:21 <Figs> the other code going on looks like this
03:27:21 <Figs> http://rafb.net/p/EqUubc31.html
03:27:31 * RodgerTheGreat threw a ShowerCompletedSuccessfullyException() at line 117271941.
03:27:55 <Figs> it's exceptional for you to successfully complete a shower? :S
03:27:56 <oklokok> why the switch, why not one calculation? :)
03:28:06 <Figs> I had some reason when I wrote it
03:28:10 <Figs> but I have no idea now :P
03:28:32 <RodgerTheGreat> Figs: I'm getting in the mood for designing TER, an esolang I thought of the other day
03:28:35 <oklokok> you can use the enum then... but hardly worth the trouble :P
03:28:37 <Figs> a flat == g sharp
03:29:13 * oklokok hasn't showered that much during the last few weeks
03:29:32 <Figs> I haven't showered in about a week
03:29:33 <oklokok> Figs: i know what they are
03:29:42 <oklokok> i just thought they might be the reason for the switch
03:29:54 <Figs> I don't remember why I did it that way :P
03:29:54 <oklokok> Figs: good, i though i was the only filthy nerd here
03:30:03 <Figs> I'm not usually so filthy
03:30:06 <oklokok> Figs: that's the only possible reason imo :\
03:30:08 <Figs> but I've been lazy
03:30:26 <Figs> I wrote this months ago
03:30:27 <oklokok> Figs: gimme source gimme source :))
03:30:35 <Figs> I only have the source for fur elise
03:30:39 <Figs> I can't find the others :(
03:30:57 <oklokok> that's the only one i can't enhance
03:31:05 <Figs> http://rafb.net/p/bOkKql71.html
03:31:11 <Figs> here's what the main looks like for this old version
03:31:45 <Figs> http://rafb.net/p/nwq3JH77.html
03:31:50 <Figs> and the fur elise stuff
03:33:14 <Figs> I didn't say it was _good_ code though
03:34:27 <oklokok> i'm not gonna read that knowing it's correct :)
03:34:31 <oklokok> i read the first part though
03:34:52 <oklokok> you've been a bit more creative there than i could deduce from the exe
03:35:13 <oklokok> (i can't hear the low notes that well because the sound is almost off)
03:36:29 <oklokok> try to find the rest and i'll fix, that's a pretty straightforward notation
03:36:46 <oklokok> hmm... wonder if i should actually do something...
03:36:47 <Figs> I'm still looking
03:38:15 <Figs> its somewhere archived in my gigabytes of old crap :)
03:39:08 <Figs> I bet I know where it is
03:40:14 <Figs> oh, no it's not :(
03:40:25 <Figs> where the fuck did i put it/!!?!!?!
03:40:47 <Figs> yeah, but I don't know what I'm searching for :P
03:41:36 <Figs> that will take forever on my computer :)
03:42:29 <Figs> I'll look by size
03:42:35 <Figs> the size of those files will be HUGE
03:42:39 <Figs> compared to my regular source
03:44:30 <Figs> just the two old files
03:45:19 <oklokok> i'm pretty sure .tone( + only .cpp files would've taken long
03:45:31 <Figs> I'm running it right now :P
03:45:59 <Figs> oklokok: that's what I'm doing ;p
03:46:16 <Figs> just size restrictions should speed it up a bit
03:46:59 <Figs> unfortunately, I have my entire installation of boost in this part of my drive..
03:47:29 <oklokok> (in oklotalk it'd be trivial to make a full search and skip certain folders)
03:47:44 <Figs> that would be ncie :)
03:47:46 <oklokok> (because oklotalk is teh stuff)
03:48:10 <Figs> can you describe file formats in oklotalk so that you can serialize easily?
03:48:45 <oklokok> serialization will be automatic, yes
03:49:10 <Figs> no success! >.<
03:49:39 <Figs> I guess I've lost the source then :S
03:50:03 <oklokok> also, you can make a list-regex for the format and auto-format it by that
03:50:18 <oklokok> (to be able to use existing formats that is)
03:50:30 <Figs> can you setup relationals?
03:51:05 <Figs> x is p followed by q
03:51:19 <Figs> that's how I do regex in C++
03:51:23 <Figs> my library does that
03:51:30 <Figs> it has to construct objects
03:51:31 <oklokok> you mean, regex with macros?
03:51:35 <Figs> I can't just store the relationships
03:52:09 <oklokok> though bnf is a bit restricted... at least usually
03:52:12 <Figs> I mean is there a way to describe the structure of something arbitrarirly instead of having to do it at runtime?
03:52:38 <oklokok> i'm sorry but i do not understand even that :*)
03:52:52 <oklokok> you mean, make the regex at compile time?
03:52:52 * Figs doesn't have a good simple explaination
03:53:04 <oklokok> you can do that, but that's not what you mean
03:53:05 <Figs> think about it like this
03:53:16 <Figs> in haskell, you set up the relationships between a lot of things
03:53:26 <Figs> without having to _do_ anything
03:53:35 <Figs> in Prolog, you setup the relationship between logical elements
03:53:42 <Figs> P(m), Q(m), etc
03:53:59 <Figs> you can use this information without constructing anything
03:54:09 <Figs> until you actually need it
03:54:12 <Figs> but you can't do that in C++
03:54:19 <Figs> except for defining the layout of a class
03:54:45 <Figs> if I said that regex foo = A|B >> C;
03:54:54 <oklokok> in oklotalk, if you make a regex, it will be an actualy object.
03:54:59 <Figs> it has to execute this to construct foo
03:56:19 <oklokok> foo = [(A|B)C] won't create anything.
03:56:33 <Figs> http://libfigconfig.googlecode.com/svn/trunk/
03:56:41 <oklokok> unless you do !Foo in a sense "compiling that regex"
03:57:18 <Figs> read the include and src and you'll get what I am talking about
03:57:24 <Figs> it's an ini-parser library I wrote
03:57:31 <Figs> my regex library is in it
03:57:40 <Figs> it's supposed to be under BSL license
03:57:51 <Figs> but I think we have MIT put up on the front page
03:58:01 <Figs> since they didn't have BST on googlecode or something
03:58:19 <oklokok> err... i'm not sure i get it from that, Figs :)
03:58:42 <oklokok> you mean it's inefficient having to compile the regexes even if they aren't used?
03:59:27 <Figs> there is no boost regex stuff
03:59:45 <oklokok> okay, it looked boostish anyway.
03:59:48 <Figs> I wrote the library
04:00:08 <oklokok> yeah, i then realized that
04:00:20 <Figs> in C++ everything is still treated like an action
04:00:20 <oklokok> anyway, was your issue the inefficiency?
04:00:31 <Figs> well, the library works fine
04:00:44 <Figs> but it's frustrating to have to play by those limitations
04:01:06 <Figs> because I can't just say there's a particular relationship between two pieces of information
04:01:24 <oklokok> yeah, you have to hack it in instead
04:01:41 <oklokok> well, i find that great :)
04:01:59 <Figs> the whole thing is basically expression templates
04:02:01 <oklokok> i loved your clisp and other c++ hacks
04:02:18 <Figs> I assume you mean the weird () functional thing I did?
04:02:46 <oklokok> (oklotalk can also simulate lisp, without the ',' even)
04:03:14 <Figs> I'm redoing the regex library right now... once I finish that, I might write a table class
04:03:17 <oklokok> and without a hack, lisp syntax just arises from the parsing... like in haskell for the most part
04:03:36 <oklokok> Figs: what will tose regexes match, actually?
04:03:49 <Figs> any pattern in strings
04:04:00 <Figs> I can refer to other regexes by reference
04:04:08 <Figs> so I can do recursive matching as well
04:04:39 <oklokok> i'm not sure if it is, and how exactly it would be
04:04:46 <oklokok> but that's regex with macros.
04:04:59 <Figs> what do you mean by 'macros'
04:05:05 <Figs> like Lisp macros?
04:05:18 <oklokok> lisp's macros are more advanced
04:05:20 <Figs> there is no code substitution going on O.o
04:05:38 <oklokok> if you can refer to other regex, you have macros, basically
04:06:05 <oklokok> A="asdf"; B="trew"; C=A|B;
04:06:09 <Figs> if I did that, it'd expand forever before anything happened
04:06:35 <Figs> if you have it actually go and do C="asdf"|"trew"...
04:06:36 <oklokok> it's regex with macros if you can do C=C|"er"
04:07:04 <Figs> but I'm not doing macros O.o
04:07:07 <oklokok> i'm just generalizing the word macro here.
04:07:18 <Figs> there's probably a better word that will confuse me less :P
04:07:25 <oklokok> you are naming parts of code to use those names instead of the actual code
04:07:27 <Figs> because I don't know what you're trying to say :(
04:07:48 <oklokok> that is the point of macros.
04:08:00 <oklokok> well, you don't actually have "code" in a regex
04:08:15 <Figs> I have trees of behavior :P
04:08:35 <oklokok> yes, but that's just parsed strings.
04:08:54 <Figs> we're talking about two different things, I think.
04:09:15 <oklokok> i mean, a macro means you name something to be able to use the name as a shortcut
04:09:34 <oklokok> it can have a more profound meaning as well, but i refer to that.
04:09:46 <oklokok> just textual substitution basically
04:10:06 <oklokok> if you have that, but instead of shortcutting code, you shortcut strings
04:10:13 <oklokok> then you basically have regex with macros.
04:10:19 <Figs> I think my system is more complicated than plain substitution since you an have the regexes refer to themselves
04:10:34 <Figs> but I think I get what you're getting at
04:10:38 <oklokok> yes, regex + macros = bnf as i said
04:10:44 <Figs> except that you're using words which have different meanings
04:11:10 <Figs> macros and strings refer to totally different parts of what's going on in the process
04:11:20 <Figs> from the way I'm used to using those words
04:11:25 <Figs> you're using them differently
04:11:33 <oklokok> your regexes match strings right?
04:11:34 <Figs> when I talk about the string, I mean the input string
04:11:42 <Figs> not whatever the pattern is
04:11:58 <Figs> they match agaisnt the begining of a string
04:12:06 <oklokok> well, when i say string, i refer to a string or a regex, because it doesn't make a difference
04:12:19 <oklokok> what i'm saying is you are adding macros in regexes.
04:12:22 <Figs> you mean to a "terminal"?
04:12:38 <Figs> because when I say string, I mean what you're checking against
04:12:42 <Figs> foo is a regex
04:12:48 <Figs> foo.match("Blah");
04:12:54 <oklokok> okay, i was talking about the regex, if that helps
04:12:56 <Figs> will see if "Blah" is accepted by foo
04:13:07 <Figs> by string I mean "Blah"
04:13:17 <oklokok> i guess you don't think of a regex as a string if you do not construct it with a string.
04:13:30 <oklokok> i mean "[a-d]*d" is a string and a regex clearly
04:13:35 <Figs> no, I don't think of a regex as a string
04:13:43 <oklokok> but C=A|B>>C; isn't a string, true
04:13:48 <Figs> I think of a regex as a tree
04:14:32 <oklokok> that, however, is not crucial, i'm just saying by adding functions into regexes you have circumvented the pumping lemma
04:15:05 <oklokok> because i just realized they indeed are clever macros in yours (== functions)
04:15:16 <oklokok> for one, they can refer to themselves
04:15:26 <oklokok> that isn't really macro behaviour
04:15:40 <oklokok> anyway, you still find something unclear? :\
04:16:25 <oklokok> "circumvented the pumping lemma" so you can match for example AAAA...AABB...BBBB
04:16:36 <oklokok> where there's the same amount of A's and B's
04:16:55 <oklokok> you can't do that with a regex, but add functions and voila.
04:17:09 <oklokok> please tell me you got it? :)
04:24:32 -!- GregorR-L has quit ("Leaving").
04:35:23 <Figs> sorry, I had to step away for a second
04:36:27 <Figs> yeah, I think I get it
04:36:49 <oklokok> sorry, strted playing with beepiano :P
04:37:05 <Figs> I had to eat dinner
04:40:19 <Figs> I have a cool little pulse :)
04:41:29 <Figs> it makes a pulse every 20 setps
04:42:26 <Figs> if you set the speed to 20, it makes a pulse each second
04:47:21 <Figs> I need to write a toggle now
04:47:25 <oklokok> pretty cool when i put my computer's integrated microphone on
04:47:26 <Figs> that will be neat :)
04:47:39 <Figs> making more crazy music?
04:47:53 <oklokok> it just hard to record in the night :)
04:48:11 <oklokok> but it's great putting the mike on, i hear my typing hard as hell
04:49:30 <oklokok> i can only record the sound of my fingers on the keyboard
04:49:37 <oklokok> so you won't hear my new masterpiece.
04:50:50 <oklokok> i could make wave output straight from the program
04:51:14 <RodgerTheGreat> http://engramstudio.com/craptracker/tracker.pl <- play with this, you may enjoy it
04:51:19 <oklokok> what am i saying, like Beep would write to a file, i'd have to play with sins and such
04:51:52 <Figs> you don't know about trackers? :|
04:52:25 * RodgerTheGreat is listening to Mellow D - xn from Nectarine Demoscene Radio
04:52:31 * Figs gives oklokok kudos for skill
04:52:38 <oklokok> that has a sucky layout, that thingie
04:52:49 <Figs> probably better ones
04:52:56 <oklokok> Figs: should i know about trackers?
04:53:01 <Figs> I use anvil studio, but it has some... issues
04:53:03 <Figs> yes, you should
04:53:11 <Figs> if you are at all interested in computer music
04:53:15 <RodgerTheGreat> oklokok: I have no doubt you could create some awesome things with a proper tracker
04:53:47 <oklokok> Figs: the fact i don't know an english term does not mean i don't know the concept : )
04:54:20 <Figs> oh, I thought you didn't know what they were at all :P
04:54:26 <oklokok> RodgerTheGreat: i already love my music, do not increase my assholish self-satisfaction :)
04:54:31 <Figs> (which was surprising)
04:54:37 <oklokok> Figs: i do not know whether i know
04:54:55 <oklokok> seeing a keyboard piano there doesn't tell me what a tracker is.
04:55:17 <Sukoshi> http://burningbird.net/technology/glory-days-the-parable-of-the-languages/ <-- Hahaha. (Back to stressing about a paper which may have already been due and which I'm probably going to get a C and mess up my course with.)
04:55:19 <oklokok> if it means a keyboard piano, i have played with one when i was 8 or smth
04:55:22 <Figs> do you know what a .mod file or .it or .xm is?
04:55:23 <RodgerTheGreat> oklokok: I love music, and I appreciate it tremendously, but I utterly lack the skill to create it.
04:55:25 <oklokok> but beepiano has a better note layout.
04:55:53 <RodgerTheGreat> when I want to increase my assholish self-satisfaction, I draw cool things. Art is one of the things *I'm* good at
04:56:03 <Figs> they're not midi formats
04:56:11 <Figs> they're similar, but not quite the same
04:56:27 <oklokok> Figs: i refer to them as midi, because i've only done midi
04:56:28 <Figs> basically, the instruments are saved along with the score
04:56:48 <oklokok> you can create instruments as well?
04:57:08 <oklokok> i made a thing once that actually randomized the instrument and the melody
04:57:10 <Figs> you can bring in samples and change the behavior they have
04:57:22 <Figs> in some trackers, anyway
04:57:25 <oklokok> for some reason, i was the only one who enjoyed that :)
04:57:42 <Figs> I think it'd be fun, but I don't know enough about programming music to do it
04:57:45 <oklokok> Figs: i have done guitar pro, logic audio and plain score.
04:57:58 <oklokok> the only interface i found good is logic audio's matrix view
04:58:13 <oklokok> but logic audio sucks ass (the windows translation is buggy i mean)
04:58:23 <RodgerTheGreat> FL studio is a pretty nice application, in my experience
04:58:32 <Figs> http://fordy.planetunreal.gamespy.com/images/modt.gif
04:58:34 <Figs> I have this program
04:58:43 <oklokok> Figs: it created random scales, not that much of a challenge :)
04:59:14 <Figs> doesn't FL have some restrictions Rodger?
04:59:18 <oklokok> i'm not interested in the actual sound, just the melody, really
04:59:40 <Figs> personally, I prefer writing in anvil studio which gives you notes
04:59:46 <oklokok> (ok, i like electric quitar and certain keyboard sounds better than square, but not many)
05:00:11 <Figs> http://www.sonicspot.com/anvilstudio/anvilstudio.gif
05:00:13 <Figs> it looks like this
05:00:27 <oklokok> Figs: i don't see why i'd need that, i do have guitar pro.
05:00:33 <Figs> actually, that's a very old version
05:00:38 <Figs> no you don't need this
05:00:45 <Figs> this isn't a tracker
05:00:49 <oklokok> tabs are better than scores, matrices are better than tabs
05:01:04 <oklokok> tracker does what, you didn't tell me yet :)
05:01:09 <Figs> this one has some tab support
05:01:42 <Figs> you use it to write tracker files like .mod and .it
05:02:10 <Figs> you use it to sequence music
05:02:29 <Figs> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tracker
05:02:40 <Figs> this will give you some more background if you are interested
05:03:37 <oklokok> i've done a lot of music on the computer, some 100 pieces i think, but i don't really care what program i use, so i haven't tried many out
05:04:03 <oklokok> which means i may lack knowledge that is somehow *basic*
05:04:06 <Figs> all melody only?
05:04:37 <oklokok> melody only? most are polyphonic
05:05:04 <oklokok> i've only done 10 ro something classical pieces
05:05:15 <Figs> I don't know if you'd like my music or not :P
05:05:23 <oklokok> i would definately want to hear it
05:05:31 <Figs> almost all of my pieces have a repeated base over and over
05:05:35 <oklokok> did you listen to my music? :)
05:05:39 <bsmntbombdood> dynamic scoping is "omgwtfbbq, people actually use this!?!"
05:05:44 <Figs> I listened to your keyboard one :)
05:05:56 <Sukoshi> I tried tracking last time many years ago, but I couldn't figure how people did it.
05:06:00 <oklokok> bsmntbombdood: dynamic scoping is heaven
05:06:05 <Sukoshi> So many notes ... how do you decide what to use?
05:06:12 <oklokok> Figs: did you listen to the serious ones?
05:06:19 <Figs> I listened to the one you linked here
05:06:28 <Sukoshi> I should try again recently.
05:06:30 <Figs> I'd certainly like to hear more :)
05:06:36 <Sukoshi> I can't draw for beans either.
05:06:45 <oklokok> http://www.mikseri.net/artists/?id=44508
05:06:45 <Figs> whatever your 15 year old finnish metal one was
05:06:54 <oklokok> http://www.mikseri.net/artists/?id=62623
05:06:58 <RodgerTheGreat> in FL Studio and Garageband I can generally manage to goof around and come up with something I enjoy, but trackers mystify me by resembling overly complex hex editors
05:07:10 <oklokok> well, those two are stuff i've actually used time to make
05:07:12 <Figs> I can't stand garageband :S
05:07:40 <Sukoshi> I haven't done any hex editing in a while ... I should.
05:07:42 <Figs> hey oklokok, do you know CTGMusic?
05:07:44 <RodgerTheGreat> Sukoshi: learning to draw is entirely a factor of the amount of time you put into practicing, practicing, studying the techniques of others and practicing
05:07:50 <Sukoshi> EXCEPT I HAVE THIS STUPID PAPER I AM STRESSING ABOUT!!
05:07:50 <oklokok> and i have a lot of midi music, but i have so much of it you wouldn't actually listen to all of it if i gave it to you, so there's no point :)
05:08:01 <Sukoshi> RodgerTheGreat: Kinda like Japanese then.
05:08:20 <Figs> you might want to take a look
05:08:24 <oklokok> logic audio, guitar pro, powertab
05:08:36 <Figs> http://www.ctgmusic.com/
05:08:45 <RodgerTheGreat> I find art tremendously relaxing, and fun as a creative outlet
05:08:48 <oklokok> Figs: did you listen to the music now?
05:08:52 <Figs> I am listening
05:09:06 <Sukoshi> I've always been horrible at art.
05:09:14 <oklokok> i'm not into bassish music, gets a bit repetitive for my taste
05:09:21 <oklokok> Figs: you most likely won't like that
05:09:28 <Sukoshi> When I went to a private school when I was little, I had to get art tutoring :\
05:09:28 <RodgerTheGreat> I picked up pixel-art a few years ago, which is handy for making games, with the bizarre side-effect of being able to draw with a mouse about as well as I can with a pencil. :S
05:09:48 <Figs> a lot of the stuff on CTG is techno, but not all of it
05:09:49 <oklokok> there's youtube videos about that
05:10:02 <oklokok> 10 minutes to draw a somewhat realistic woman
05:10:03 <Figs> I was going to suggest that if you want people to listen, you might put up some of your stuff there
05:10:15 <Sukoshi> I just have a very bad grasp of spaciality.
05:10:16 <Figs> I suck at drawing :)
05:10:29 <Figs> I can do basic pixel line-art
05:10:35 <Sukoshi> Everything from math graphs to 2D video games, I can't do it.
05:10:37 <oklokok> Figs: listen to Liekeiss, that's the one people usually like unless they don't like the rest
05:10:42 <RodgerTheGreat> proportions are something you just have to drill into your head
05:10:56 <Sukoshi> I don't even understand math graphs until I see the function.
05:11:12 <Figs> which is that?
05:11:12 <oklokok> people feel sorry for the paper when i draw on it.
05:11:26 <Figs> I don't see it
05:11:37 <Figs> I see Reflection and Wanna feel pain
05:11:48 <RodgerTheGreat> Sukoshi: to be honest, I think pixel-art can be an excellent gateway to other kinds of art- I would highly encourage you to try it. Pixel art is nice because it's forgiving (infinite erasures and redraws) and allows you to make very pretty things with varied palettes
05:11:56 <oklokok> that's practically a dead band nowadays
05:12:12 <Sukoshi> RodgerTheGreat: I still think I'll do awful, heh.
05:12:27 <Figs> Sukoshi: read tsugumo's tutorial
05:12:30 <Figs> it's decent :)
05:12:35 <Figs> probably one of the best ones out there
05:12:45 <RodgerTheGreat> I made these animations for a sidescroller a friend of mine started working on recently: http://www.nonlogic.org/dump/images/1184470821-Sprites.png
05:12:50 <oklokok> and it's liekeiss, a with an umlaut you ignorant american! :P
05:13:08 <Figs> I don't have access to it on my keyboard so easily as you ;)
05:13:15 <Figs> you know how to type it
05:13:32 <RodgerTheGreat> the standing animation was roughly based on a series of drawings I did as a "pencil test" http://rodger.nonlogic.org/images/MonkeyAnim.gif
05:13:35 <Figs> http://petesqbsite.com/sections/tutorials/tuts/tsugumo/
05:13:56 <Figs> it's a classic, eh? :)
05:14:36 <Figs> oklokok, where's the correct link, then?
05:14:46 <oklokok> Figs: you're welcome to show your music, all i have here is time, i'll listen to it all, whether i like it or not
05:14:52 <oklokok> Figs: two links, two bands.
05:15:04 <Figs> I thought I had the wrong one
05:15:11 <oklokok> nope, you just had the other one.
05:15:12 <Figs> I finished the Reflection
05:15:25 <oklokok> that's pretty bad quality recording
05:15:41 <oklokok> i fail bad at the keyboards in Wanna feel pain :)
05:15:47 <Sukoshi> Any good books/guides on tracking?
05:15:50 <oklokok> don't laugh too hard, i was <15
05:17:02 <oklokok> (i guess playing skills can't be excused with age since there are 5-year-olds playing many things as well as me)
05:17:03 <Figs> I'm not well versed in metal, so I don't know what's good or not
05:17:20 <oklokok> Figs: you still might notice a mistake.
05:17:50 <oklokok> i think i play faster than any less-than-8-year-old
05:17:57 <Figs> let me see what I can dig up here, hold on
05:18:12 <Figs> I haven't written any good music in a long time
05:18:31 <oklokok> (i can play parts of yngwies blitzkrieg on the keyboards if that tells anyone anything :P)
05:19:10 <oklokok> (prolly not, you technoboys)
05:19:59 <Figs> I'll send you three of my old pieces
05:20:43 <Figs> I never finished any of these songs
05:20:55 <oklokok> i can finish them for you if you want :P
05:20:59 <Figs> http://www.megaupload.com/?d=E6D2GV1I
05:21:06 <Figs> nah, I'll keep working on them
05:21:20 <Figs> they're rather weird :P
05:21:27 <Figs> let me see what else I can dig up
05:23:20 <Figs> here's another one,
05:23:21 <Figs> http://www.megaupload.com/?d=QU0M2LN0
05:23:26 <Figs> this is probably one of my better ones
05:23:41 <Figs> but it is a prime example of a boring bass :)
05:23:58 <Figs> actually playing it on piano, it would probably sound better
05:24:06 <Figs> since there would be more variations in the way it sounds
05:24:34 <oklokok> Figs: if you don't like heavy, i don't recommend listening to hereford, amorte is pop, if you like that more
05:27:20 <oklokok> well, for some reason it's a software thing here
05:27:31 <oklokok> so my computer lags -> volume goes full
05:27:44 <oklokok> no way to put it back except wait for it to stop lagging
05:28:13 <oklokok> so i just played a high tone for about a minute in a very big volume
05:28:43 <oklokok> (my dad can't hear that high a tone i think :P but neighbour might've woken up)
05:29:18 <Figs> you should get some headphones
05:29:31 <oklokok> the hole for them is broken :)
05:29:34 <Figs> it will make your life easier listening to music at night :)
05:29:38 <Figs> oh, that sucks :(
05:29:49 <Figs> can't repair it?
05:30:22 <Figs> my music any good?
05:30:26 <oklokok> yeah prolly... but haven't sent it to be repaired :)
05:30:32 <oklokok> well, the lag prevented my opening it
05:31:32 <oklokok> i though when you said something about bazz
05:31:33 <Figs> I didn't say anything about writing techno
05:31:43 <Figs> I write a very repeatitive bass part
05:31:47 <Figs> like in The Way
05:31:53 <oklokok> (you're not the only one allowed to typo that")
05:32:25 <oklokok> i see now what you meant by that
05:32:36 <Figs> it would sound much better actually played
05:33:03 <Figs> I've never taken any piano lessons, so...
05:33:13 <Figs> well, make sure you listen to the whole thing through
05:33:13 <oklokok> if i can still play the piano, haven't done that in a while :P
05:33:23 <Figs> before commiting to that ;)
05:33:29 <Figs> some of it's really a bit weird :P
05:33:40 <Figs> and might be quite difficult to actually play
05:33:52 <Figs> (or physically impossible)
05:33:54 <oklokok> i used to play 8 notes / second or something
05:34:25 <Figs> well, if you can play it, I'd love to hear it played on a real piano :)
05:34:51 <oklokok> hmm, it's of course impossible to get those 3 melodies played simultaniously
05:35:00 <oklokok> well, for me it would be :)
05:35:11 <oklokok> but i can work out something
05:35:36 <Figs> I think I originally intended it to be playable, but I later realized that I just didn't the hand coordination to do it
05:35:46 <Figs> so I went a bit crazy later on in the piece with the variations and things
05:36:41 <oklokok> i wouldn't really call that a piece to be honest, it's 30 sec :)
05:36:55 <Figs> I said I never finished most of my work :)
05:37:06 * Figs points to Satie
05:37:07 <oklokok> if you wanna be strict, you'd need 4 hands for that
05:37:21 <Figs> or two sets of hands ;)
05:37:37 <oklokok> well, it's called 4-handed playing in finland
05:37:54 * Figs doesn't know piano terms
05:38:26 <Sukoshi> Forteissimo == Strong playing.
05:38:32 <Sukoshi> Pianissimo == Weak playing.
05:38:56 <oklokok> crecendo Crecendo CRecendo CRE-FUCKING-CENDO
05:39:08 <Figs> I know those terems :)
05:39:09 <Sukoshi> You sound like my art teacher :D
05:39:40 * Figs points to music which has "retard." written in the score
05:40:12 <oklokok> Figs: those are the terms people use out of musical context as well, though
05:40:36 <Figs> I know a lot of basic musical terms since I've had a couple years playing the flute
05:40:41 <oklokok> staccato doesn't really mean anything unless you've actually played an instrument
05:40:45 <Figs> plus I've been composing for a long time
05:40:54 <Figs> I don't know many piano specific things
05:41:14 <Sukoshi> Non-piano people know about potato.
05:41:45 * Figs shows you he already has an adequate root room.
05:42:12 <Figs> do you say po-tay-to?
05:43:17 <Figs> here's another song
05:43:25 <Figs> http://www.megaupload.com/?d=HJYH980M
05:43:55 <Figs> this isn't really the most 'together' piece in the world, but eh, none of my stuff is :)
05:45:07 <Figs> a lot of my music would probably take a couple listens through before it makes any sense
05:45:14 <Figs> that happens to me even sometimes
05:45:17 <Figs> and I wrote the songs
05:45:27 <Figs> it reminds me a bit of the Beatles' music
05:45:37 <Figs> I have to listen through their songs a couple times before I can follow it
05:46:14 <Figs> I'm sure there are other groups like that, but they're the only ones that come to mind right now
05:46:37 <Figs> I have no idea what style of music I'm writing though :P
05:47:01 <Figs> most of it is based off of things I figured out listening to game sound tracks
05:47:09 <Figs> like Chrono Trigger and Zelda
05:49:32 <Figs> what was I doing?
05:49:53 * Figs shuts up for a few minutes
05:50:07 * Figs prods Sukoshi and oklokok
05:50:12 <oklokok> i'd say you write backround music, easy going and no surprises (i don't mean utterly simple, i mean the easy-goin-ness)
05:50:28 <oklokok> just as you said yourself, actually
05:50:47 <Figs> there are a lot of different sorts of background musics
05:51:11 <Figs> like what you'd have in a battle in a video game is very different from what you'd have in an elevator :)
05:51:11 <oklokok> true, i've never been good at categorizing music
05:51:21 <oklokok> since there aren't good terms for that
05:51:33 <oklokok> there are genres, but those are about sound, not melody.
05:52:08 <oklokok> Figs: to upload there, do you need an account?
05:52:15 <oklokok> i could up you come of my mids
05:55:03 <Figs> hahah! this is classic :)
05:55:17 <Figs> "Consider how often writers abuse the apostrophe; not to mention the semicolon."
05:57:57 <Sukoshi> http://burningbird.net/technology/glory-days-the-parable-of-the-languages/ <-- Hahaha. (Back to stressing about a paper which may have already been due and which I'm probably going to get a C and mess up my course with.)
05:58:28 <Figs> what's the paper?
05:58:43 <Sukoshi> Numerous problems, much stressing. Parental angst included.
05:58:56 <Sukoshi> But I'm stressing so hard right now that I have to do some Japanese to calm down.
05:59:41 <oklokok> it seems i can't convert gp4 to mid.
06:00:10 <oklokok> neither can make it neither mid nor wav
06:00:20 <oklokok> even though both have that export
06:03:17 <oklokok> it seems i just didn't have enough ram to listen xD
06:06:27 <oklokok> http://www.megaupload.com/?d=JW278ACC
06:06:58 <oklokok> the guitar sucks if you're not used to it
06:14:49 <oklopol> those all have lyrics as well but i don't think you'd be interested :D
06:15:25 <Figs> I'm not too big on metal to be honest
06:15:32 <Figs> but I am listening :)
06:16:44 -!- RodgerTheGreat has quit.
06:17:35 <oklopol> i have very little stuff without the guitar
06:18:35 <Figs> this last one sounds a bit like you'd hear in a boss battle in a game
06:18:52 <Figs> or in a dungeon
06:19:05 <Figs> Essence of Truth
06:20:05 <oklopol> the two other are pretty basic metal
06:20:14 <oklopol> EOT is one of my more creative ones
06:20:29 <Figs> especially that other lighter theme
06:23:06 <oklokok> http://www.megaupload.com/?d=0WO5ZRQ2
06:23:46 <oklokok> and because of the nature of guitar pro, it's very repetitive
06:25:26 <pikhq> <me /likes abusing SGML in ways that modern SGML parsers hate with a firm passion./
06:25:33 <Figs> I've been sitting here for 30 minutes
06:25:35 <Figs> debuging this program
06:25:44 <Figs> because I was testing against something that wasn't a variable!?!?!?!?!
06:26:02 <Figs> damn you interpretted languages with weak type checking!!
06:26:13 <Figs> it didn't give me an error message
06:26:17 <Figs> it just evaluated to null
06:26:20 <oklopol> i used > hour because i was setting a global variable in a constructor instead of the objects variables :)
06:26:28 <pikhq> I'm remarkably curious how you can not tell that something's a variable.
06:26:36 <oklopol> and happened to have variables with the same name
06:26:38 -!- Figs has left (?).
06:26:52 -!- Figs has joined.
06:26:57 * pikhq is a Tcler; variable references are preceded with $ or used as an argument to set.
06:27:13 <pikhq> So, "$foo" or [set foo]
06:29:04 <oklokok> this is my newest http://www.megaupload.com/?d=7KIMP763
06:29:11 <Figs> still waiting on the other :P
06:30:10 <oklokok> oh my god that's a cool guitar solo
06:31:56 <Sukoshi> I have to ask you people -- how do you know which instrument produces the sound you want and when?
06:32:27 <Sukoshi> I can understand on Piano, mainly because I have piano experience, but when you're composing music you don't just use one instrument.
06:32:46 <Figs> I like what you have at about 3:00
06:32:50 <oklokok> i don't care that much about the choise for instrument
06:32:54 <Figs> in a long story
06:33:03 <pikhq> bsmntbombdood: In the same sense that BASIC replaced C?
06:33:11 <Sukoshi> That doesen't help much oklokok :P
06:33:23 <Sukoshi> Do you just experiment and find the correct sounds neccessary?
06:33:35 <Figs> he's right though
06:33:37 <oklokok> Sukoshi: are you talking about the instrument or the notes?
06:33:38 <Figs> it doesn't really matter
06:33:51 <oklokok> any instrument can produce any tone
06:33:53 <Figs> you just play with the instruments
06:34:03 <Figs> till you get the texture and tones you like
06:34:07 <Sukoshi> Ah. So it's like playing with a REPL.
06:34:15 <Figs> but when writing it, I usually just write with piano
06:34:19 <oklokok> Sukoshi: yes, if you're a noob :)
06:34:19 <Figs> and then arrange later
06:34:40 <oklokok> read-eval-process-something
06:34:46 <pikhq> bsmntbombdood: Scheme and Tcl both pwn. . . ;)
06:34:59 <pikhq> oklokok: Read Eval Print Loop.
06:35:24 <Figs> wow, this is kind of cool...
06:35:45 <Figs> ok, you remember that little esolang I was talking about?
06:35:58 <Figs> the one meant to be like befuge?
06:36:20 <Figs> it doesn't look very language like though :P
06:36:27 <oklokok> hmm, i didn't really check it out that well
06:36:40 <oklokok> i did something else when you were explaining it
06:37:18 <Figs> let me see if I can do some simple adding
06:37:31 <Figs> I know I can do at least an And and an OR
06:38:16 <oklokok> argh my "," is broken!ti9grje
06:39:27 <oklokok> okay, i'll stop listening to my mids now
06:40:06 <Figs> I think I've got something cool now...
06:40:14 <Figs> let's see if i can make a 2 pulse
06:40:46 <Figs> very easily too
06:42:47 -!- Figs has left (?).
06:42:56 -!- Figs has joined.
06:42:58 <Figs> wrong button again!!
06:46:52 <Figs> can you repaste your second link?
06:46:55 <Figs> the most recent one?
06:47:02 <Figs> (the one after a long story)
06:47:14 <oklopol> http://www.megaupload.com/?d=7KIMP763
06:47:32 <Figs> switch back again? :P
06:47:44 <Figs> I've got it so I have two streams now
06:47:48 <Figs> that come together
06:48:06 <Figs> and one has pulse every other time the other one comes
06:48:20 <Figs> it would be easy to build those memory cells, I think
06:48:30 <Figs> now that I have toggle gates
06:49:04 <Figs> I need to design a system that will let me edit these though
06:49:11 <Figs> since they're all hard coded in right now
06:51:04 <pikhq> bsmntbombdood: Looks combinatorial.
06:51:39 <Figs> wow, it's crazy watching this go at 60 frames a second
06:55:31 <pikhq> bsmntbombdood: I'm a poor, poor Tcler. Could you give me your lambda in Tclexps?
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06:56:31 <pikhq> [apply {x {$x $x}}] {x {$x $x}}
06:56:42 <pikhq> I think that's the correct translation into Tcl 8.5. . .
06:59:47 <pikhq> Construct a string containing your code, eval it, apply it, or make a proc out of it.
07:00:33 <oerjan> what's (lambda (x) (lambda (y) x)) ? :)
07:01:53 <pikhq> apply {x {apply {y {$x}}} ?
07:02:56 <pikhq> Start a line with it if it's named. If it's anonymous, pass it to the apply function.
07:03:39 <pikhq> Appending to a function?
07:04:02 <pikhq> Oh, that's easy. Use the append function.
07:04:26 <pikhq> append varName ?value value value ...?
07:05:04 <pikhq> (or: set varName [concat $varName value value value ...])
07:06:31 <bsmntbombdood> {x {concat x "\"" x "\""}} "{x {concat x "\"" x "\""}}"
07:06:34 <Figs> this is really annoying
07:07:27 <oerjan> is [apply [apply {x {{y {x}}}} 3] 2] actually 3, or does tcl break on it?
07:07:55 <pikhq> Let me just try it.
07:08:30 <pikhq> Syntactically invalid.
07:08:59 <pikhq> The inner lambda tries to execute the command "y {x}", which is, I believe, not what you want.
07:09:03 <oerjan> pikhq: actually i don't think i got a reasonable answer to what K is
07:09:54 <pikhq> Here's the most portable version of K: proc K {x y} {set x}
07:10:36 <pikhq> Anonymously: {{x y} {set x}}
07:10:46 <oerjan> pikhq: actually i am asking if tcl does lambda calculus worth the name
07:12:18 <pikhq> http://wiki.tcl.tk/4824 This appears to be one solution.
07:13:55 <pikhq> Note that that code is written using the latest stable Tcl build, which doesn't have functions as a first-class object.
07:15:58 <oerjan> no closures, in other words
07:16:08 <pikhq> http://wiki.tcl.tk/16182 This describes the alpha Tcl build. ;)
07:17:40 <pikhq> oerjan: Can be added.
07:18:59 * Figs destroys program in a frenzy
07:21:06 * oerjan notes that >.< is legal brainfuck
07:21:47 <Figs> this is just another reason to prove I should never use this system again
07:22:05 <bsmntbombdood> (lambda (fn . a) (lambda b (apply fn (append a b))))
07:22:21 <Figs> the object system is fucked up and collisions after creating new objects don't always seem to take proper precedence
07:22:46 <Figs> Chicken Curry? :P
07:22:52 * Figs makes bad jokes :P
07:24:42 <pikhq> {{fn a} {apply {b {apply fn {apply a b}}}}}, I think, is currywurst. XD
07:25:32 <pikhq> Bleh. Nope: {{fn a} {apply {b {apply $fn {apply $a $b}}}}}
07:25:36 <Sukoshi> Khichoree full of ghee ... mmmmm....
07:28:55 <pikhq> bsmntbombdood: Happy?
07:29:59 <pikhq> Sorry; I'm kind of new to doing strictly functional coding in Tcl.
07:31:29 <Figs> it's not a good thing when a manga you used to read has the same title as a Shonen-ai anime and you start using google to find the old manga >.<
07:32:39 <Figs> ie, gay romance story for girls
07:32:53 <Figs> (usually for girls :S)
07:39:35 * Figs makes lots of typoes
07:39:43 <pikhq> I don't care; don't want it either way. :p
07:40:27 <Figs> anyone got the link to brainfuck or befunge on the wiki?
07:40:28 <Sukoshi> You should care, being a Japanese student and all.
07:40:30 * Figs can't remember the link
07:40:39 <Figs> I haven't taken japanese in a year :)
07:41:44 <pikhq> Sukoshi: Well, yeah. I mostly just don't care in that shoujo-ai is preferable by a large margin. :p
07:41:44 <Figs> I thought you were telling me I should care I made a typo on the word shounen
07:42:17 <Sukoshi> I don't watch Shounen-ai meself, and I prefer Yuri (not Shoujo-ai!) but case in point.
07:42:59 <pikhq> So, yeah. Mostly saying that I don't want gay pron. ;p
07:46:59 <Sukoshi> Shoujo-ai was made by an American person who took the Japanese semi-slang word Shoujo-ai and twisted it. No-one outside the US really uses it.
07:47:26 <Sukoshi> But generally, Shoujo-ai is ``softcore''.
07:48:02 <pikhq> I was mostly using it as contrast to shounen-ai; presumably, that's how the term came into usage here.
07:48:33 <oklokok> softcore gay porn is for wimps.
07:48:51 <Figs> oklokok: can I quote you on that?
07:48:52 <Sukoshi> Softcore meaning no sex involved.
07:49:00 <Sukoshi> oklokok: You like t3h tentacle raep?
07:49:23 <oklokok> Sukoshi: depends on how many tentacles
07:49:26 <Sukoshi> Shoujo-ai is used in some circles, but it's dying out too.
07:49:42 <Sukoshi> oklokok: Tentacle loli raep right? Since tentacle raep is only loli-licious.
07:49:46 <Figs> is it used in some squares? :P
07:50:00 <oklokok> i've watched tentacle stuff, also loli+tentacle, but i can't say i enjoy any hentai really
07:50:09 <Figs> bsmnt: wtf is that?
07:50:20 <pikhq> oklokok: Then I'll be glad to confiscate your collection.
07:50:22 <Figs> what is it about...?
07:50:41 <oklokok> pikhq: i don't have any hentai on my hd
07:51:20 <Figs> that just sounds nasty!
07:51:22 <Sukoshi> Yeah, I've never seen hentai, nor do I intend to.
07:51:31 <pikhq> bsmntbombdood: No, I just want to sell it for great profit.
07:52:01 <Figs> I've seen some, most is just stupid.
07:52:16 <Sukoshi> bsmntbombdood: No it's not.
07:52:26 <pikhq> Figs: Porn is stupid by definition. ;)
07:52:28 <Sukoshi> Yuri can be softore, obviously.
07:52:40 <oklokok> pikhq: how is porn stupid?
07:52:53 <Sukoshi> Whatever it is, it doesen't involve any sex or nekkidness.
07:53:10 <Sukoshi> bsmntbombdood: .... Typical male behavior :D
07:53:14 <pikhq> oklokok: It appeals to the stupider, animalistic instincts by design.
07:53:22 <Sukoshi> There are these things called relationships.
07:53:38 <Sukoshi> Yes. Loving the *person* not the *body*. Crazy, I know.
07:54:05 <pikhq> Sukoshi: So, you've got romance novels, rather than porn. Main difference being the audience. :p
07:54:18 <Sukoshi> Yeah. Romance is the more appropriate word.
07:54:23 <Figs> wow, uhm... I have _really_ gotten this channel off topic!
07:54:28 <bsmntbombdood> lol. http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/44/Dream_of_the_fishermans_wife_hokusai.jpg
07:54:38 <pikhq> Figs: That's inherent in the channel.
07:54:54 <Sukoshi> bsmntbombdood: Errr... no?
07:55:07 <Sukoshi> Well, I guess it is *sometimes*, but I don't read it for arousement.
07:55:15 <Figs> Sukoshi, are you a bunny?
07:55:23 <Figs> www.egscomics.com
07:55:40 <Figs> you might find it interesting
07:56:35 <oklokok> hmm, i should try some sleeping soon
07:56:44 <Figs> it's got to be like what
07:57:27 <oklokok> bsmntbombdood: i just can't wake up once i fall asleep, failed the second night :P
07:57:38 <oklokok> i don't even recall putting the clock off
07:57:45 <oklokok> even though i had multiple
07:58:09 <oklokok> 3 i think, one is on the computer
07:58:33 <oklokok> either i shut them all off or i just slept the hour they were ringing :)
07:59:01 <oklokok> i thought i might try sleeping on the floor tonight
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08:04:39 <Sukoshi> I tried polyphasic (not Uberman) for 2 weeks.
08:05:06 <Sukoshi> One day, I slept through two blaring alarms that woke up my mom and my sister in another room through closed doors all the way across the hall.
08:05:20 <Sukoshi> After that I realized polyphasic was a failure :P
08:06:20 <Sukoshi> bsmntbombdood: I can't remember offhand, but it was rearranged for school purposes.
08:06:49 <bsmntbombdood> i think i'm going to try 24 hours awake, 12 hours asleep sometime
08:07:54 <Sukoshi> I do a 4 hours asleep, 20 hours awake routine.
08:08:41 <Sukoshi> I never understood how people sleep longer than 4 hours. What's the difference between sleeping for a long time and sleeping forever?
08:08:45 <bsmntbombdood> that's the same amount of sleep as uberman's, without the spacing out for REM
08:09:27 <Sukoshi> I don't get dreams ever anyways.
08:09:45 <Figs> I always get dreams, even if I forget them :)
08:09:46 <pikhq> Sukoshi: I've been known to sleep for 12 hours at a time.
08:09:55 <Figs> I know because of psychology :)
08:10:03 <pikhq> I probably can't handle low amounts of sleep well at all. ;)
08:10:12 <Sukoshi> Well true. I don't remember my dreams, so it is quite pointless.
08:10:24 <Figs> Sukoshi -- why not try to remember your dreams?
08:10:28 <Sukoshi> Even with 4 hours, I can't get all the things I want to in a day done.
08:10:31 <Sukoshi> Figs: Because sleep is boring.
08:10:31 <Figs> it's easy to do if you decide you want to
08:10:37 <Figs> Lucid dreaming
08:10:41 <Figs> it ain't boring ;)
08:10:45 <bsmntbombdood> last night i went to bed at 1:30 and got up at 2:00
08:10:54 <Sukoshi> Your programming time is cut, your time for Japanese is cut, you can't even enjoy anime or watch TV.
08:11:17 <Sukoshi> Especially on school days with school and homework taking large chunks of the day out.
08:11:30 <Sukoshi> How do you propose I do my daily electronics homework too then?
08:11:41 <pikhq> My usual time is closer to 6, but in the summer, I drift to 12 hours of sleep and my body *tries* to shove me into a 36-hour day.
08:11:42 <Sukoshi> Lucid dreaming won't teach me about RF ;)
08:12:23 <Sukoshi> Summer I do 4-5 hours. School I do 2-4 hours.
08:12:58 <Sukoshi> Healthy? Probably not. Fun? As hell.
08:13:32 <bsmntbombdood> i would do a temporary complete sleep-dep experiment, but not that
08:14:02 <Sukoshi> The sheer volume of stuff I do in a day does not fit in even 20 hours, how do you expect it to fit in less?
08:14:13 <Sukoshi> I'm trying to find a spot to cram in daily blog writing and extra Kanji time.
08:14:27 <Figs> sukoshi: optomization :D
08:14:40 <Sukoshi> Maybe if I adjust my gaming time a little bit, I've been thinking, but I've already cut down gaming to 1 hour.
08:14:51 <Sukoshi> So I'm not sure what else I can do.
08:14:56 <Figs> get a time turner thing from hp 3 :P
08:15:30 <Sukoshi> If the art history course went away, the time would appear.
08:15:40 <Sukoshi> I have other obligations and parents you know.
08:15:40 <Figs> finish art history?
08:16:07 <pikhq> My solution is remarkably simple: gaming? meh. TV? Not worth spending time for, anyway.
08:16:07 <Figs> actually sukoshi, I haven't sleep properly in 15 years :)
08:16:23 <Sukoshi> I only watch Good Eats. But I watch a lot of anime.
08:16:24 <Figs> BAHWRLKRFJ:EWLR :D:D: /.. .. . . .. ... ... .. :D
08:16:30 <Sukoshi> It makes good spoken Japanese practice.
08:16:42 <Figs> SeeeEEEE how FIne?! I turrrrrnede out ??? ::DDDD
08:16:45 <Sukoshi> Along with manga reading (which I'm also trying to insert to the daily routine), and novel reading.
08:18:07 <Sukoshi> I live for learning and creating. I get a kick out of my daily routine.
08:18:16 <Sukoshi> I do it because it's a *lot* of fun.
08:18:29 <Sukoshi> But then other things start slipping.
08:18:54 <Sukoshi> This is a pointless debate, and my break time's over. You need a routine if you want to keep a standard in several daily tasks.
08:19:04 <Sukoshi> Studying requires dedication. Anyways, see jah.
08:19:44 <bsmntbombdood> if it was fun you wouldn't need to force yourself into it
08:20:02 <pikhq> I'm closer to a full-time hacker who does other things when the mood comes to me. Not really good for anything other than hacking, though. ;)
08:20:24 <Figs> Egads, my brain!
08:20:29 <Figs> that describes me, I think.
08:20:38 <Figs> Sukoshi, have fun
08:20:42 <Figs> but don't hurt yourself
08:21:03 <Figs> most people have better mental powers after a full sleep
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09:45:51 <Figs> I got it exactly
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16:09:56 <SimonRC> Sukoshi: I am trying to do Lucid dreaming but not getting anywhere
16:12:33 <oklopol> you want hints from Sukoshi, who does not have dreams, ever?
16:13:33 <oklopol> argh why is every goddamn language so verbose
16:13:49 <oklopol> i don't want to write 100 lines to get a simple 2d game engine rolling
16:13:55 <oklopol> that's a fucking oneliner in oklotalk
16:15:02 * oklopol knew who you meant, he's just an evil bitch
16:15:45 <oklopol> i've only tried pygame, java applets and sdl for graphics... so i shouldn't really blame every language i guess :D
16:17:11 <oklopol> i know K does mandelbrot with a oneliner
16:17:22 <oklopol> b:4>@[n;&0n=n:+/_sqr 50{c+(-/x*x;2*/x)}/c:+,/(-1.5+2*(!w)%w),/:\:-1+2*(!w)%w:200;:;4];`mandel.pbm 6:"P4\n",(5:2#w),"\n",_ci 2_sv'-1 8#,/+(2#w)#b
16:17:28 <SimonRC> I meant, what is the "D game, and what is it in Oklotalk?
16:17:32 <oklopol> that's like compressed sex
16:17:59 <SimonRC> I am not experienced enough to appreciate your analogy
16:18:11 <oklopol> experienced in sex or in K?
16:18:27 <SimonRC> I have not experienced either at all :-(
16:18:33 <oklopol> K beats sex by a mile, if you have to choose between those, do K
16:19:04 <oklopol> i haven't done that much K
16:21:01 <oklopol> draw(50 50 100 100)world files Somepic;
16:21:09 <oklopol> will output an image on the screen
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16:21:49 <ihope> (Which, unfortunately, is pronounced roughly like "kay es kah" rather than "kay es kay".)
16:21:59 <SimonRC> Its implementation propeitry, though
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16:22:11 <ihope> Also, did somebody say never dreams ever?
16:22:46 <SimonRC> IIRC dreams occur mostly in the later sleep, so if you don't sleep much you will dream disproprotionately less
16:23:30 <ihope> How does Sukoshi sleep?
16:24:29 <oklopol> SimonRC: dreams occur in rem
16:24:31 <ihope> That seems... not a lot.
16:24:50 <oklopol> 4 or something times in a normal night's sleep
16:24:51 <sp3tt> 2-5 hours per nite? that's... not much
16:25:06 <ihope> Well, people do dream during naps.
16:25:08 <oklopol> 2-5 hour... that... little is very :|
16:25:23 <oklopol> ihope: yes, that's the basis of uberman
16:25:41 <sp3tt> how much coffee does he drink!?
16:25:48 <ihope> Uberman is related to dreaming?
16:25:49 <SimonRC> ihope: presumably because they don't need deep sleep at that point
16:25:59 <oklopol> ihope: rem is when you dream
16:26:11 <oklopol> and it seems that is the only necessary phase of sleep
16:26:29 <ihope> sp3tt: is amount of coffee consumed actually related to amount of sleep?
16:26:34 <oklopol> not proven, but if people are on uberman's for over a year, i'm pretty sure it's true
16:26:35 <ihope> oklopol: you sure it's only during REM?
16:26:46 <oklopol> ihope: from what i read about uberman
16:28:10 <ihope> "A 'dream' is the experience of a sequence of images, sounds, ideas, emotions, or other sensations during sleep, especially REM sleep." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dream
16:29:22 <ihope> So what's this saying Sukoshi doesn't dream, again?
16:29:27 <oklopol> well, that's the actual "dreaming phase"
16:29:36 <oklopol> the phases aren't *that* discrete
16:29:52 <oklopol> i'm not sure what i meant by that
16:30:05 <oklopol> ihope: Sukoshi said she doesn't have dreams.
16:30:40 <ihope> Well, you can't rely on that.
16:30:57 <oklopol> ihope: meaning she does not remember them
16:31:05 <oklopol> which essentially is the same thing
16:31:24 <oklopol> (assuming everyone *knows* she of course actually has dream)
16:31:39 <ihope> With practice, dream recall can be "learned".
16:32:24 <oklopol> it's just my dreams are rarely worth mentioning
16:32:29 <oklopol> either they're boring as hell
16:32:34 <oklopol> or too sick to tell publicly
16:34:02 <oklopol> for example, i've had a dream where i'd just walk home from school
16:39:25 <ihope> Wait, you say oklotalk does a certain sort of 2D game engine in one line?
16:39:40 <oklopol> that's most likely not true.
16:39:48 <oklopol> i just got pissed at python
16:40:03 <oklopol> i can try making one, we'll see how long it'll take
16:40:15 * ihope ponders a Haskell one-liner
16:40:27 <ihope> A *useful* Haskell one-liner.
16:40:46 <ihope> Useful, or some such.
16:41:04 <ihope> Or some other such, that is.
16:41:31 <ihope> BBM simulator thingy?
16:43:20 <SimonRC> q[]=[];q(x:s)=(\(y,z)->q y++x:q z)$partition(<x)s
16:43:32 <SimonRC> ISTR there is a 22-char one too
16:45:19 <oklopol> {->[];L->'({_<:L}\L)+:L+'({_>:L}\L)}
16:45:26 <oklopol> but that's still pretty clear
16:45:35 <oklopol> you can make it tremendously shorter
16:47:05 <oklopol> i tried to find my shorter one
16:47:25 <ihope> sort [] = []; sort (x:xs) = sort (filter xs (<= x)) ++ [x] ++ sort (filter xs (> x))
16:47:40 <ihope> sort [] = []; sort (x:xs) = filter (sort xs) (<= x) ++ [x] ++ filter (sort xs) (> x)
16:47:50 <ihope> Not sure which is better.
16:48:38 <ihope> sort[]=[];sort(x:xs)=filter(sort xs)(<=x)++x:filter(sort xs)(>x)
16:48:44 <oklopol> {->$;'(._<\:_)+.:+'$._<\:_}
16:49:05 <SimonRC> you have the arguments to filter backwards
16:49:07 <ihope> How short does it go?
16:49:16 <SimonRC> and you will want to use partition of maximum shortness
16:50:01 <oklopol> well, i've been thinking of a partitioning operator (for this exact reason, originally :P), but that'd be cheating
16:50:20 <oklopol> also... sorting in quicksort is /.
16:50:58 <ihope> /. is one character?
16:51:04 <oklopol> hmm, i'm not sure if that was the command, i don't have the spec here and i've done a lot of remake to make use for every char :P
16:51:33 <oklopol> it's a prefix operator, /1 5 3 6 === 1 3 5 6
16:52:08 <ihope> sort=Data.List.sort
16:52:13 <ihope> Sort in Haskell :-P
16:52:28 <oklopol> is that quaranteed to be quicksort?
16:52:50 <ihope> If you have import qualified Data.List as L, sort=L.sort
16:52:53 <oklopol> i'm not sure what maybe with a question mark means
16:52:57 <ihope> If you have import Data.List, sort is free :-)
16:53:10 <ihope> Um... same as without, I suppose.
16:53:59 <ihope> End everything with a question mark, if you want? It'll look weird, though?
16:56:01 <ihope> No definition required.
16:56:11 <ihope> It's in Data.List, and you've imported Data.List.
16:56:37 <oklopol> you don't have to import anything to have / in oklotalk :)
16:57:33 <oklopol> lsort needs Lang!List, but you usually have that already imported (oklotalk also has an OS under it that's somewhat attached to the language)
16:58:00 <oklopol> (so imports and stuff like that are sometimes implicit)
16:58:12 <oklopol> (depending on where you are coding / scripting)
17:00:03 <oklokok> ihope: i can't really think of a way to do any key input without actually matching the keycodes
17:00:04 <oklokok> X Y=50 50;I->@[Do`{clear;draw$(X,Y)world files Pic;X Y<-X+(),Y+()}];
17:00:12 <oklokok> will draw a pic and move it around randomly
17:00:35 <oklokok> X Y=50 50;I->@[Do`{clear;draw$(X,Y),world files Pic;X Y<-X+(),Y+()}];
17:01:09 <oklokok> actually, you can get that smaller, i had to add some code to have possibility for key input
17:01:27 <oklokok> because that'd've been like 20 chars :|
17:02:22 <oklokok> X Y=50 50;I->do`{clear;draw$(X,Y),world files Pic;X Y<-X+(),Y+()}; that is
17:02:40 <oklokok> X Y=50 50;do`{clear;draw$(X,Y),world files Pic;X Y<-X+(),Y+()} that is
17:06:50 <oklopol> k combinator in oklotalk: {A->§(A)}
17:07:08 <ihope> Eh, you don't seem to be interfering with anything.
17:07:51 <oklopol> true, i'm just afraid all my monologueing will deplete my brain, soon i'll have nothing to say
17:10:50 <oklopol> god i hate it having to search for modules... why can't the ide do that for me :|
17:14:27 <oklopol> it's always 3 hours getting the modules and all to work, 15 minutes to make the actual game
17:15:32 <oklopol> hmm, i wonder when i'll ever be able to shop, when i wake up, shops start closing
17:16:53 <ihope> You're being caught up in the nightly recessions?
17:17:18 <oklopol> i give up, please tell me there the python module "helpers" can be found
17:17:48 <ihope> Quite annoying that GDP drops like an aerodynamic barbell every night.
17:17:58 <oklopol> they must love questions like that
17:18:21 <ihope> What sort of game are you looking to create?
17:19:15 <oklopol> from point A, enemies come and move towards point B
17:19:23 <oklopol> if they get there, you lose.
17:19:31 <oklopol> you can built stuff to kill them
17:19:37 <oklopol> the enemies will not attack
17:20:01 <oklopol> this is a game that first arose in multiplayer strategy games i think
17:20:16 <oklopol> and there's lots of flashes about it
17:20:27 <oklopol> i'm trying to make one with a bitter higher mathematical content
17:20:35 <oklopol> so that you can think about your plans on paper
17:20:52 <oklopol> and not just try out random strategies
17:21:09 <oklopol> most those games have one exact way to get millions of points
17:22:26 <oklopol> for example, in one of the games, there is only one gun that can archive at constant price a non constant rise in damage
17:22:44 <oklopol> s / non constant rise / n->n*a
17:23:03 <oklopol> it's pretty obvious that is the only way to get *anywhere*
17:23:27 <oklopol> because the hp of the enemies grows... n->n*1, while you only get a constant increase in the money you get outta them
17:23:37 <oklopol> ihope: supply me the correct term, will you?
17:24:04 <ihope> The term for what?
17:24:05 <oklopol> i lose vocabulary temporarily every time i read new vocabulary
17:24:15 <ihope> Multiplying n by a?
17:24:18 <oklopol> n->n+a = constant increase
17:24:50 <oklopol> coefficiential rise in money?
17:25:05 <ihope> If it's multiplied by a number regularly, that's an exponential increase.
17:25:09 <ihope> 1, 2, 4, 8, 16, 32, ...
17:25:33 <oklopol> i did some unbelievable failing there
17:25:43 <oklopol> but hopefully my point was still cathable
17:25:53 <oklopol> if i had one, don't remember.
17:28:07 -!- ihope_ has joined.
17:28:12 <ihope_> Remember, I'm retroscient.
17:28:16 <ihope_> Assuming that's a word.
17:29:06 <ihope_> But it seems I didn't miss anything anyway.
17:29:18 <oklopol> Did you mean: retracement?
17:31:31 <oklopol> i already know it's *nothing*, but what is it?
17:32:56 <oklopol> hmm, that should've been easy to guezz
17:33:45 <oklopol> not that i'd actually have looked at it, once you said you're not sure if it's a word i checked it's meaning without reading it :)
18:31:30 <ihope> And suddenly, chat falls silent, not to be woken for almost 52 minutes...
18:31:54 <ihope> By my client, 51 minutes and 59 seconds.
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18:58:55 -!- RodgerTheGreat has joined.
19:35:43 -!- RodgerTheGreat has changed nick to RodgerTheAfk.
19:50:04 <test__> i can't compress that to one letter
19:50:13 -!- test__ has changed nick to ehird`.
20:17:58 <ihope> In letter impossible.
20:18:07 <ihope> In four words possible.
20:19:00 <ihope> And two. And not need punctuation.
20:19:52 <ihope> Five words not okay. Try say much.
20:23:02 <ihope> (And more not okay.)
20:24:20 -!- RodgerTheAfk has changed nick to RodgerTheGreat.
20:29:26 <oklopol> if i developed different personalities for my nicks
20:35:32 <ihope> I generally don't notice people's personalities on IRC.
20:35:38 <ihope> So you'd have to be pretty strong with them.
20:37:15 <oklopol> well, i'd prolly have a looney one and a normal one.
20:37:37 <oklopol> i notice personalities after a while
20:39:01 <ihope> I've been on Sine for what is apparently almost a year.
20:39:19 <ihope> I still couldn't tell you much of personality.
20:39:35 <ihope> I could give you Aftran, kaelis and kyevan, I guess.
20:39:54 <ihope> Oh, and definitely YeTr2.
20:40:04 <ihope> 25 people in there right now.
20:43:47 <oklopol> i can't tell anything about anyone's personality really, but i'd recognize if someone behaved different than usually, i'm pretty sure
20:44:28 <ihope_> Peraps you could leave out te letter H, like I like to do.
20:45:08 <oklopol> err yes, that's what i mean
20:46:23 <ihope_> (Mm, leaving out te H in "what" looks a little odd.)
20:46:34 <oklopol> i mean, i'd notice if someone started leaving out letters they usually use
20:47:19 <oklopol> well, wat might look bad because it's pronounced differently
20:47:32 <oklopol> well, so it 'te', but it's such a small word
20:48:47 <ihope_> Well, you also often see people saying "WAT?" wen pretending to be "newbie".
20:49:18 <ihope_> Or maybe some people actually don't know ow to spell "what".
20:52:07 <ihope_> I know tat Dylan over in Sine doesn't like wen people do stuff like leaving out all teir Hs.
20:52:24 <ihope_> (Or H's, or owever you want to write tat.)
20:52:50 <RodgerTheGreat> in general, it's easier to remember a person and tie personality evaluations to that person when I know what they look like
20:52:52 <ihope_> Leave out tat H instead of tat one?
20:52:57 <oklopol> me too, i need a personal trainer for it :<
20:52:57 <ihope_> bsmntbombdood: wat's not-working about it?
20:53:10 <oklopol> bsmntbombdood: come here, we'll do it together ;)
20:53:17 <ihope_> bsmntbombdood: failed ow?
20:53:55 <ihope_> bsmntbombdood: alarm clock?
20:54:50 <ihope_> Alarm clock and human and you still failed to wake up?
20:55:22 <RodgerTheGreat> when I don't know what someone looks like, I tend to cling to my own imaginary versions of people or forum avatars as a "face"
20:56:19 <bsmntbombdood> i (while sleeping) verbally convinced the human (twice) to not wake me up
20:58:12 <ihope_> What would you call that, then?
20:59:25 -!- ihope has quit (Connection timed out).
21:00:19 <ihope_> That phenomenon of talking while asleep?
21:05:07 <oklopol> bsmntbombdood: while i am always serious when proposing stuff like that, it's often better to think of them as jokes
21:05:48 <oklopol> i can accommodate you if you come.
21:20:32 <ehird`> RodgerTheGreat, my brain reads forum posts as a short movie starring the person's avatar
21:20:50 <ihope_> Apparently tat penomenon is indeed someting separate from sleepwalking.
21:21:02 <ihope_> Or maybe not, but Wikipedia as a separate article on it.
21:21:07 <ehird`> people without avatars have their "user info" block left to the post as the speaker.
21:22:01 <RodgerTheGreat> people with consistent opinions or mannerisms to their writing slowly build up the impressions of personalities and cadences, so eventually you can imagine the person there having a debate or conversation with the other forum-goers
21:22:36 <RodgerTheGreat> I tend to imagine threads as a bunch of people around a table, with camera cuts between speakers, periodically, and the people acting out emoticons and the like
21:23:29 -!- RedDak has joined.
21:23:38 <ihope_> I think I sort of identify people on IRC by their nick lengths and the first letters.
21:24:07 <RodgerTheGreat> it's also easy to remember people when you associate a person with a few specific accomplishments or traits you've identified over time
21:24:23 <RodgerTheGreat> it makes people seem more like individuals than anonymous commentators
21:24:33 <ihope_> Many b, many R, seven o, five i, six l, seven G...
21:25:08 <ihope_> bsmntbombdood is the bsmnt_bot person, GregorR is the EgoBot person, oklopol is the oklotalk person...
21:25:26 <pikhq> ihope is the dude that does stuff. . .
21:25:38 <GregorR> pikhq is that guy that's totally useless ...
21:25:43 <ihope_> I recognize myself by the fact that I'm me. :-)
21:25:44 <GregorR> ihope is that guy that's totally useless ...
21:25:47 <pikhq> GregorR: Thanks. -_-'
21:25:48 <GregorR> RodgerTheGreat is that guy that's totally useless ...
21:25:51 <oklopol> most of you have a fucking-genius stamp on you.
21:26:00 <ihope_> Cool, I'm pikhq and RodgerTheGreat.
21:26:06 <pikhq> GregorR is that guy that's *really* useless.
21:27:23 <RodgerTheGreat> we should put together a photogallery or something so we can marvel at one another's ugliness
21:27:23 <ehird`> i'm that guy that's that guy.
21:27:26 -!- wooby has joined.
21:27:46 <ehird`> "i'm the guy that that that's that that guy."
21:27:56 <pikhq> "Here comes the Thnikkaman!"
21:29:04 <ihope_> That that is is that that is not is not is that it it is.
21:31:57 * SimonRC observs it thundering and lightninging.
21:39:53 <oklokok> (RodgerTheGreat) we should put together a photogallery or something so we can marvel at one another's ugliness <<< there is one.
21:40:31 <oklokok> anyway, there is a thing like that
21:40:48 <oklokok> guess i should've noticed when i saw it taken off.
21:41:47 <Sukoshi> oklokok: I may be a genius, but I'm still a virgin ;)
21:42:27 <oklokok> Sukoshi: i'll keep that in mind
21:43:09 <ihope_> <oklopol> most of you have a fucking-genius stamp on you.
21:43:30 <ihope_> bsmntbombdood: that's what you get for replying long after the fact :-P
21:43:40 <oklokok> Sukoshi: your pic on that map? ;)
21:43:54 <Sukoshi> oklokok: Heck no. I'm a paranoid geek.
21:45:48 <oklokok> i get a bit paranoid when school is on, in the summer i stay inside, and the paranoia is needless
21:46:46 <oklokok> yes, but i doubt they'd bother the trouble
21:47:13 <oklokok> well, i like being surprised
21:47:54 -!- bsmntbombdood_ has joined.
21:48:07 <oklokok> Sukoshi: actually i have no idea what you were referring to with the virginness
21:48:15 <oklokok> sounds interesting though, so do explain
21:48:22 <Sukoshi> <oklopol> most of you have a fucking-genius stamp on you.
21:48:51 <oklokok> the best jokes are the ones i get on the third hearing
21:49:58 <lament> Sukoshi: correction: "I may be a virgin, but I'm still a genius"
21:50:28 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit.
21:50:39 -!- bsmntbombdood_ has changed nick to bsmntbombdood.
21:55:02 <lament> Sukoshi: way to break the pattern :(
21:55:04 <Sukoshi> Neither does your mom, but too bad :P
21:55:15 <Sukoshi> lament: I know, I forgot to capitalize of :(
21:55:22 <Sukoshi> Anyways, back to paper writing.
21:55:38 <lament> EOYM doesn't even.. mean anything!
21:56:03 <Sukoshi> Oh! I didn't realize that!
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22:40:45 <oklopol> i'm not gonna be here tonite, so do your prodding quick :)
22:40:46 <Figs> `id `ou `ver `et `round `o `rying `o `lay `y `ong?
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22:41:12 <ihope_> Did you ever get around to trying to play by long?
22:41:25 <oklopol> Figs: i think i played the left hand, but forgot about it :)
22:41:37 <oklopol> forgot i was supposed to learn it
22:41:59 <oklopol> i promise to do a lot of stuff i actually forget or am too lazy to do :)
22:42:11 <Figs> when you get a chance :P
22:42:27 <Figs> I still like the part at 3 in the long story
22:42:30 <oklopol> err, actually i can't, i played it straight from the zip i dl
22:42:51 <Figs> you don't have the .zip in temp files?
22:43:01 <Figs> windows keeps everything :P
22:43:05 <oklopol> i might, where are those? :)
22:44:11 <Figs> often that's C:\DOCUME~1\YOURNAME\LOCALS~1\Temp
22:47:30 <Sukoshi> Do you mean /Docume/Yourname/Locals/Temp ?
22:47:49 <pikhq> %tmp% is "No such file or directory" here. ;)
22:48:32 <Figs> mm, it works on my machine
22:48:42 <Figs> sometimes it's %temp%
22:49:03 <Figs> sukoshi, no I mean the \'s
22:49:13 <Figs> try going to the path manually
22:49:21 <Figs> (you are on windows, right?)
22:49:45 <Figs> open Documents and settings
22:49:52 <Figs> click on your account name
22:49:54 <oklopol> Figs: i did search them all already :)
22:50:14 <Sukoshi> Figs: Have you played with Dolphin Smalltalk?
22:50:27 <Sukoshi> Figs: I hear it's very nice.
22:50:28 <Figs> Click CLick sqreee!?
22:50:36 -!- jix has quit ("CommandQ").
22:50:43 <Figs> Dolphin Smalltalk ;)
22:50:51 <oklopol> Figs: i promised myself to go read physics @ 1 am
22:50:52 <Figs> Click Click Scree? Why I never!
22:51:04 <Figs> I'll upload it later
22:51:04 <Sukoshi> Smalltalk has clicking involved, yeah.
22:51:17 <Figs> SUkoshi... don't make me kill my joke :P
22:51:30 <Sukoshi> Figs: I don't understand it though ... :P
22:51:39 <Figs> smalltalk, like chatting
22:51:41 <Sukoshi> GST also has scripting capabilities.
22:51:44 <Figs> dolphins chit-chatting
22:51:57 * Figs has killed the joke
22:52:04 <Sukoshi> I never even *think* of conversation when I think about Smalltalk.
22:52:23 <pikhq> I don't think of Smalltalk.
22:52:32 <pikhq> In either sense. :p
22:52:34 <Figs> but the whole point of the language is to send little messages to other objects, isn't it?
22:53:04 <Sukoshi> Wow, so that's where the name came from....
22:53:08 <SimonRC> they are synchronous, confusingly
22:53:24 <Sukoshi> I think Smalltalk is quite awesome.
22:53:44 <Figs> Not sure if that's where ti came from or not, but it makes a hell of a lot of sense :P
22:53:48 <SimonRC> As opposed to "messages" in almost everything else, which are asynchronous.
22:54:40 <ihope_> Wait, you mean there's the possibility of its not having come from the fact that it's about messages?
22:55:26 <Figs> ihope_ -- Alan Kay might have been inspired by talking gnomes for all I know.
22:55:39 <oklopol> i'm pretty sure smalltalk's name has no reason.
22:55:56 <Figs> does your name have a reason?
22:56:14 <oklopol> mine? it's a term that was used somewhere
22:56:34 <Figs> my name is random, but not random.
22:57:08 <oklopol> ¬ <- negation! i found it!
22:57:08 <Figs> didn't you say you needed to study physics?
22:57:26 <ihope_> Your name is arbitrary?
22:57:50 -!- Sukoshi has quit ("Leaving").
22:57:53 <Figs> heh, that's fun to say
22:57:59 <Figs> "Who is 'you'?"
22:58:19 <Figs> you is oklopol? stop changing nicks on me so much! :P
22:58:35 <ihope_> Isn't you also oklopol?
22:58:45 <Figs> me isn't also not oklopol?
22:59:09 <oklopol> it doesn't in anyway relate to my personality or anything
22:59:14 <ihope_> Maybe you is also not oklopol. I doesn't know.
22:59:24 <Figs> Good luck FIGuring out how my name relates.
22:59:36 <oklopol> oklopol is conworld / substance with an utterly bitter taste
22:59:48 <ihope_> Is that the meaning of "oklopol"?
23:00:03 <oklopol> Figs: i assume you like smoking sigarrettes
23:00:07 <ihope_> (Lame Shakespeare reference.)
23:00:23 <Figs> I don't smoke.
23:00:32 <oklopol> Figs: i know that's not the reason, but it's a good way to remember your personality
23:00:48 <oklopol> tough guy in a room full of smoke
23:01:28 <oklopol> never smoked it regularly though
23:01:36 <Figs> I can't stand the smell of smoke :S
23:01:42 <Figs> oh, it's 1 am isn't it?
23:01:48 <oklopol> and car exhaust, you gotta love that as well
23:01:48 <bsmntbombdood> cigarettes smell terrible, but cigars smell good sometimes
23:01:58 <Figs> I don't really like car exhaust
23:02:00 <oklopol> Figs: shh, i haven't noticed yet.
23:02:06 <Figs> but I do like the smell of some types of mold.
23:02:18 <Figs> like in old stairways
23:02:30 <oklopol> because i rarely smell anything
23:02:39 <oklopol> it's always nice to smell something for once
23:03:00 <oklopol> bsmntbombdood: you proved that just now?
23:03:03 <Figs> (have fun with that one ^.^)
23:03:30 <Figs> double meaning ^.^
23:03:36 <Figs> did you google it?
23:04:45 <Figs> is Smalltalk where $nameslikethis came from?
23:05:21 <Figs> just my misreading ;)
23:05:39 <pikhq> Figs: I think that's a Bourne shell-ism.
23:06:47 <Figs> can someone explain lambda calculus to me in 10 minutes or less?
23:06:55 <Figs> just the syntax
23:07:56 <Figs> what does the . mean?
23:08:10 <pikhq> Seperates arguments from function contents.
23:08:20 <Figs> how do you denote multiple args?
23:08:59 <ihope_> The function takes one parameter and returns another function, which takes the other.
23:09:02 <Figs> so a lambda function can only have one input, basically?
23:09:23 <Figs> that makes a hell of a lot of sense really
23:10:05 <Figs> reduces the whole bloody issue of having to keep track of the number of args, somewhat
23:10:20 <ihope_> ...Well, what do you mean?
23:10:37 <Figs> well, I mean like in C++
23:10:53 <Figs> a <void ()> <void (a)> <void (a,b)> etc...
23:11:00 <pikhq> That's only an issue when you can have overloaded functions.
23:11:18 <Figs> it's an issue when you need to store functions
23:11:53 <pikhq> (lambda '(a b) (E)) is Lisp for \ab.E. :p
23:12:08 <Figs> well, I mean, in C++ if you try to call a 2 var function with 1 var
23:12:11 <Figs> it just fucks up
23:12:53 <Figs> well, whatever
23:13:03 <Figs> I don't care right now :)
23:13:07 <Figs> I'm reading about smalltalk
23:14:23 <Figs> [:x | [:y | x+y] ]
23:14:27 <Figs> can you do that in smalltalk?
23:15:37 <Figs> personally, I would consider that to be a relationship
23:15:41 <Figs> but something like
23:16:06 <Figs> (not in Smalltalk any more)
23:16:11 <Figs> I consider an 'action'
23:16:16 <Figs> since it's doing something
23:16:28 <Figs> the actions a program can take are ultimately sequential...
23:16:42 <pikhq> Welcome to imperative programming.
23:16:52 <Figs> actually, I'm going the other way
23:16:57 <Figs> towards functional
23:17:12 <Figs> a program ultimately evaluates to a list of actions, doesn't it?
23:17:25 <Figs> that's why monads work
23:17:28 <Figs> in haskell, etc
23:17:35 <Figs> because it forces it to be sequential
23:17:51 <Figs> passing whatever it needs along
23:17:58 <Figs> or did I miss the point?
23:18:26 <Figs> I wonder if I can make a truely grey language
23:18:46 <Figs> right in between functional and imperative programming
23:20:28 <Figs> because that's an anagram of flop?
23:20:35 <pikhq> Because that's the name of that language.
23:21:11 <Figs> I don't really like Lisp
23:21:17 <Figs> I mean, I like the ideas behind it
23:21:25 <Figs> but I don't much like the way it's written
23:21:33 * Figs is a product of C-like syntax
23:23:15 <Figs> if anything I'm starting to like Haskell, but its syntax still gives me headaches trying to remember
23:24:28 <ehird`> http://catpad.net/michael/APLLife.gif
23:24:35 <ehird`> APL = Array Programming Language OR A Programming Language
23:24:36 <Figs> 'A Programming Language'?
23:24:39 <ehird`> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/APL_%28programming_language%29
23:25:01 <ehird`> i particularly like how it is UTTERLY UNREADABLE
23:25:15 <pikhq> I'd say Plof is, well, functional programming for a C coder.
23:25:22 <Figs> haha, what the bloody fuck!
23:25:32 -!- sebbu2 has joined.
23:26:00 <Figs> I can't find plof
23:26:04 <pikhq> S = (x,y,z):{x(z,y(z));};
23:26:12 <pikhq> http://www.codu.org/plof2/
23:27:11 <pikhq> I = (x):{S(K, K, x);};
23:27:21 <Figs> your APL is killing my mind.
23:27:49 <Figs> who the fuck thought it would be a good idea to get rid of the normally type-able symbols?
23:28:13 <pikhq> GregorR: Hey, I just proved Plof Turing-complete, by way of combinatory logic!
23:28:13 <ehird`> it was that the normally type-able symbols weren't commonly standardized
23:28:18 <ehird`> it being 1964 and all.
23:29:22 <Figs> even though the qwerty keyboard was patented in 1868?
23:29:47 <ehird`> uh, that's hardly the same thing
23:30:02 <ehird`> that patent didn't have { or } or @ or # i'd be willing to bet
23:30:10 <pikhq> Sure, but you neglect things such as the space cadet keyboards.
23:30:25 <ehird`> apl uses spaces...although sparingly
23:30:48 <Figs> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c7/UnderwoodKeyboard.jpg
23:31:37 <Figs> so... uh, why not just design a language with letters and english punctuation then?
23:32:05 <Figs> I'm pretty sure it have at least : ; " ' , ( ), . ? ! etc
23:32:22 <ehird`> that's not enough to represent all apl operators
23:32:25 <Figs> otherwise it wouldn't be very useful to type on.
23:32:47 <Figs> you can use words as operators
23:32:58 <ehird`> then it wouldn't be apl
23:33:09 <ehird`> gripping news: some language's designs are not the same as the norm
23:33:38 <Figs> and how many people still use APL?
23:34:17 <Figs> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/24/Index_typewriter.jpg
23:35:12 <Figs> here's some news for you, keyboards aren't even standard today :)
23:35:26 <Figs> if you go to parts of europe or asia, they have very different keyboards
23:35:40 * Figs points out C's trigraph system
23:35:58 <Figs> and it got replaced for good reason :D
23:36:41 <Figs> although, I guess within certain areas, they are a *bit* more standardized because of the ISO/IEC
23:38:09 <Figs> why does the ISO always want my money :(
23:38:22 <pikhq> Figs: The trigraph system was never "replaced".
23:38:36 <Figs> sure, it's still there if you want to use it...
23:38:37 <pikhq> It's just merely been stuck in as of 1989.
23:38:53 <Figs> but how many people still use it?
23:39:04 <Figs> I don't want to pay CHF 42 to read a 125 kb document
23:39:12 <pikhq> Same amount that used it when it was added by the ISO standardisation committee: 0.
23:39:33 <pikhq> (note that the original C language didn't have trigraphs at all)
23:40:02 <Figs> I don't think the number is 0, or I'd have never heard of it
23:40:21 <pikhq> Fine. The number is about half of the IOCCC entrants.
23:41:00 <Figs> I am not a statistician! :D
23:43:13 <SimonRC> the trigraphs are there for people who are using an EBCDIC
23:43:22 <SimonRC> (it deserves the indefinite article)
23:44:01 <ehird`> http://esolangs.org/wiki/JumpFuck nobody has comments?
23:44:20 -!- sebbu has quit (Connection timed out).
23:44:31 <Figs> http://www.squidi.net/comic/amd/comic/amd1-018.gif
23:44:36 <Figs> got to love that logic :)
23:45:26 <pikhq> ehird`: Want an implementation?
23:45:47 <ehird`> pikhq, Sure -- it's not exactly hard to implement, but yeah
23:47:43 <SimonRC> the "continuations" are really just jump-points, right?
23:47:55 <SimonRC> they do not save any data at all
23:48:39 <ehird`> surely the tape should not change, bsmntbombdood
23:48:56 <ehird`> (from pre-continuation-call to post-)
23:49:09 <ehird`> that makes it useless for functions if you have e.g. a stack used
23:49:48 <ehird`> that's useless for functions then
23:49:55 <ehird`> if you have a data stack, then it'd be trashed
23:50:16 <bsmntbombdood> you have to pass the argument as the argument to the continuation
23:50:27 <bsmntbombdood> there not continuations unless they save and restore the tape
23:50:32 <lament> remember, cells are unbounded
23:50:45 <lament> a continuation call allows you to pass one cell
23:50:55 <lament> one cell can contain an arbitrary amount of information
23:51:05 <lament> it's up to you to pack it of course
23:51:22 * Figs disappears into the night
23:51:31 -!- Figs has left (?).
23:51:44 <ehird`> IMO the tape should not change
23:51:45 <SimonRC> you get exponential runtimes in the size of you data, rather than the cubic and quartic one usually expects from BF
23:51:47 <lament> therefore jumpfuck continuations are "call/cc complete"
23:52:22 <ehird`> the point of & and % is to make compiling into JF easier. having to pack values into a single argument is not easier
23:52:37 <lament> compiling into JF from what?
23:52:54 <SimonRC> passing an n-bit number to a continuation takes O(2^n) time
23:53:18 <lament> you're complaining that a BF variant has efficiency issues?
23:53:28 <SimonRC> doin most things with an n-bit number only takes O(n^3) or O(n^4) time in BF
23:53:41 <ehird`> & and % make for very easy functions
23:53:52 <SimonRC> if you want to pass 8 bytes around, you will be waiting forever
23:53:54 <lament> i don't think the current specification is ideal
23:54:00 <lament> but i can't think of anything better
23:54:18 <SimonRC> how about a stack of stacks?
23:54:28 <lament> for example, instead of one cell as an argument, it could pass the entire rest of tape
23:54:36 <lament> that is, all the cells to the right of the pointer
23:54:47 <lament> and keep only the ones to the left
23:54:49 <SimonRC> how about a length cell followed by that many data cells?
23:54:57 <lament> SimonRC: too contrived
23:55:06 <ehird`> http://esolangs.org/wiki/JumpFuck byebye references to continuations, hello jump points
23:55:12 <lament> SimonRC: that's something Pascal would have, not Brainfuck :)
23:56:12 <ehird`> lament, the amount of hackery required to implement sane functions when the tape gets scrambled is not acceptable
23:56:37 <SimonRC> how about something simpler...
23:56:40 <ehird`> well, that's why i'm not using continuations
23:56:53 <SimonRC> instead of fucking around with contniuations, just add a second tape
23:57:00 <lament> i thought you wanted brainfuck with continuations...
23:57:12 <SimonRC> that makes compilation of many things so much simpler
23:57:16 -!- ehird` has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).