00:00:47 <Figs> that's why I suggested it
00:01:01 <Figs> but I doubt it'd be particularly easy to do from scratch
00:02:29 <ihope> Has anybody written a pattern description language to give to Conway's Life universal constructors?
00:02:36 <oerjan> it would be cool if the life state was shaped like a giant numeric display
00:02:44 -!- liber has left (?).
00:05:34 <oerjan> like the final result of the calculation was shown as the final pattern of cells
00:18:18 <pikhq> It's not even been proven that a universal constructor is possible in Life. . .
00:18:48 <pikhq> Or, for that matter, a replicator.
00:33:56 <bra|ket> er, a universal constructor is disproven, nothing can construct the gardens of eden
00:34:10 <bra|ket> similarly, nothing can replicate them either, since that would involve constructing them.
00:36:29 <bra|ket> unless "universal constructor" means something else?
00:38:12 <pikhq> A replicator is a pattern which creates itself.
00:38:29 <pikhq> A universal constructor would be a device which can create anything, given appropriate instructions. . .
00:39:15 <pikhq> I'd say a universal constructor *is* impossible in Life, since garden of eden patterns are in existence.
00:39:22 <pikhq> A replicator, though? Might be possible.
00:39:38 <ihope> Not truly universal.
00:39:40 <pikhq> Maybe a constructor which can create anything which has a previous pattern. . .
00:39:52 <pikhq> Yeah, it wouldn't be universal.
00:39:56 <ihope> A universal constructor is something that can build anything that can be built.
00:41:29 <pikhq> Otherwise, I'd call it a universal constructor. ;)
00:41:55 <ihope> An as-universal-as-it's-going-to-get constructor.
00:42:04 <pikhq> So, it could build everything but garden of eden patterns. . .
00:42:11 <ihope> Or, if you think that's clumsy, a limit-universal constructor.
00:42:13 -!- Figs has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
00:42:20 <ihope> What about the successor of a Garden of Eden?
00:42:47 <pikhq> That depends: can those be built by other patterns?
00:44:10 <pikhq> It's not been proven either way. ;)
00:47:59 <bra|ket> this is like proving properties about "programs except those which don't halt"
00:48:40 <bra|ket> well, no, that one is actually very useful :)
01:41:09 -!- Figs has joined.
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01:57:08 <RodgerTheGreat> how about taking the biochemistry approach here- identify a specific number of "molecules" (gliders, stable patterns, etc) to use in the construction process. Then just make a machine that can make any arbitrary arrangement of said elements
01:57:48 <RodgerTheGreat> or were you guys interested in a UC more as a theoretical construct than a useful one?
01:58:18 <oerjan> i recall something considered about building anything that can be done starting with gliders
01:58:51 <RodgerTheGreat> well, glider collisions are generally how you make stuff in Life.
01:58:59 <oerjan> possibly with the gliders coming from an arbitrary large distance
01:59:23 <pikhq> You can make stuff from other of the spaceships. . .
01:59:58 <RodgerTheGreat> pikhq: ah, yes- I was using my terminology incorrectly. By "glider", I meant any self-moving pattern
02:00:23 <oerjan> my comment was about gliders proper
02:01:00 <RodgerTheGreat> are there reliable methods for making glider "reflectors", if you get my meaning?
02:01:52 <ihope> Self-moving patterns are properly called spaceships.
02:02:02 <ihope> Gliders can be reflected easily, I think.
02:03:03 <RodgerTheGreat> I wonder if we could map any of the stream-deflecting 2d esolangs directly into Life
02:04:21 * SimonRC indicates the "Ladder" patterns
02:06:32 <bsmntbombdood> a turing machine with a finite tape is really just a FSM right?
02:07:11 <ihope> RodgerTheGreat: we probably could.
02:24:45 <Figs> are you guys still talking about that life thing? :P
02:25:10 <oerjan> well the last comment before yours was about it
02:25:25 <Figs> yes, and I was surprised
02:25:45 <Figs> didn't think my topic would last so long
02:26:23 <DeviALT> Is there any science to setting the XP Pagefile to a fixed size relating to performance?
02:27:08 <oerjan> is that a cattle prod?
02:27:21 <Figs> it's an okloprod
02:28:44 * Figs waves good-bye to SimonRC
02:30:19 <Figs> hehehehe, make a life <-> malbolge cross compiler :D
02:31:08 <oerjan> then, a brainfuck <-> malbolge cross compiler in life
02:31:26 <Figs> that'd be hard
02:31:58 <oerjan> and then, you can probably get a life <-> brainfuck compiler in malbolge automatically
02:35:13 <pikhq> Just make a Brainfuck > Malbolge compiler or interpreter, and I will worship you.
02:35:47 <pikhq> Same prize as for solving the halting problem for Turing machines in a Turing-complete system.
02:36:25 <pikhq> Hell, I'll even give you that prize for creating a halting oracle.
02:37:50 * Figs turns randomly flips the switch on the database server
02:38:03 <Figs> bwahaha! A halting Oracle...
02:38:42 <pikhq> Not what I meant. . .
02:39:00 <Figs> That's for the lawyers to decide :D
02:39:32 <Figs> "Yes, but in subclause 12.1.1 you said..."
02:40:20 <oerjan> *sigh*, worship is so expensive nowadays. unless you can sing or do sports.
02:41:06 <Figs> or not wear shorts.
02:43:41 <Figs> beware for your ports!
02:44:13 <RodgerTheGreat> pikhq: but how are we supposed to *make* an Oracle? Turing made it pretty explicitly clear (as we could determine with a bit of logic) that an Oracle cannot be a machine
02:44:48 <oerjan> RodgerTheGreat: you are missing the point :)
02:44:50 <Figs> Rodger, you must give birth!
02:44:57 <RodgerTheGreat> if we can calculate *exactly* how improbable one is...
02:45:04 <Figs> The chosen one...
02:45:12 <oerjan> Figs: an _oracle_, not a _miracle_
02:45:26 * Figs gives rodger some tea
02:45:51 <Figs> the probability is 42
02:45:57 <Figs> you can figure out the units on your own.
02:46:00 <RodgerTheGreat> and pow! I win the International Turing award for extreme cleverness
02:46:48 <Figs> we need a language called brainspunge
02:47:16 <RodgerTheGreat> and subsequently will be lynched by a mob of irate computer scientists who decide that what they *really* can't stand is a smartass
02:48:00 <oerjan> all computer scientists are smartasses already
02:48:37 <Figs> Brainfuck + Spoon + Befunge = Brainsponge
02:49:26 <pikhq> Actually, you'd be celebrated, since all hackers are smartasses. ;)
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02:49:57 <pikhq> Figs: When a contract is not sufficiently specific, the intent of both parties is considered.
02:50:59 <oerjan> lessee, if you have Spoon and brainfork, there should also be a brainknife?
02:51:31 <Figs> yes yes, but you will still need a brainsponge to clean up all the mess from eating
02:51:45 <Figs> And a brainsink
02:52:24 <oerjan> BrainHammer sounds like a descendant of FYB
02:52:54 <oerjan> with massive legions of fighting programs
02:53:20 <pikhq> GregorR-L: It's not my fault that you can't spell two words.
02:53:26 <pikhq> And use "brane" in the wrong context.
02:53:37 <RodgerTheGreat> I made a BF-powered robot fighting game kinda like RoboWar
02:53:43 <Figs> http://tinyurl.com/2rfynx
02:54:01 <RodgerTheGreat> and then I realized what a shitty idea it actually was when I started trying to make warriors
02:54:40 <RodgerTheGreat> the best I ever did was a bot that could kinda ram into other ones
02:54:59 <Figs> Rodger, that's why you need GA
02:55:07 <Figs> The Angles? O.o
02:55:12 <Figs> I didn't take this
02:55:15 <Figs> I found it on wikipedia
02:56:23 <Figs> http://tinyurl.com/2jxotg
02:56:33 <RodgerTheGreat> Figs: good point, but the main realization I had was that it was extremely difficult to provide robots with enough information about the world around them to make smart decisions or act out some kind of strategy
02:57:10 <Figs> isn't that kind of neat?
02:57:25 <Figs> it's a dragonfly's eye
02:58:10 <Figs> well, if you really want to know what I look like....
02:58:11 <Figs> http://tinyurl.com/yse8c9
02:58:14 <RodgerTheGreat> I have two favorite pictures on wikipedia: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/97/Lockheed_SR-71_Blackbird.jpg
02:58:37 <RodgerTheGreat> and this one: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/0/0b/Z-machine480.jpg
02:59:25 <RodgerTheGreat> Figs: lies and propaganda! I see only one fig there, not a pluralism!
02:59:35 <Figs> it's a close-up :)
03:01:54 <Figs> I had a weird idea
03:02:02 <RodgerTheGreat> this is a self-portrait I drew a while back in sharpie: http://www.nonlogic.org/dump/images/1182990062-SelfPortrait.png
03:02:54 <Figs> You aren't really Rodger the Great!
03:03:51 <RodgerTheGreat> when I roam the digital wild west as a caped-crusader, I'm Rodger The Great.
03:04:30 <GregorR-L> http://www.codu.org/Gregor.jpg < A self-portrait I made.
03:04:59 <RodgerTheGreat> I admire the subtlety of line quality you make use of here
03:05:56 <pikhq> I admire how you declare a self-portrait of yourself as being made by you.
03:06:20 <Figs> that is my self portrait
03:06:25 <GregorR-L> pikhq: I only said it was a self-portrait I made, not that it was a self-portrait of me that I made.
03:06:34 <GregorR-L> pikhq: I could present you with a self-portrait somebody else made, but it wouldn't be of me.
03:06:38 <RodgerTheGreat> I'm bored. Does anyone want me to make them a cool avatar-thingey based on their face?
03:07:02 <GregorR-L> http://www.codu.org/hats/Tyrolean-med.jpg
03:07:25 <Figs> A slightly better self-portrait
03:07:43 <GregorR-L> RodgerTheGreat: How 'bout 128x128 - I can always shrink to what I need *shrugs*
03:08:31 <GregorR-L> I don't know exactly what you're making, so I just guessed it would be resize-able :P
03:08:49 <Figs> it's a magic fish!
03:09:06 * Figs bursts into song
03:09:11 <Figs> Maaaaaaaagic Fish!
03:09:28 <Figs> MaAaAaAg-~~i~~~c FIIIIIIIIIIIiiiiiIIIIIIISH
03:09:30 <pikhq> GregorR-L: It's titled "Gregor", and it's on your website.
03:09:38 <pikhq> Obviously, it's a portrait of you. ;)
03:09:55 <Figs> Anthony and AnthonyG are != on this network :P
03:10:11 <Figs> Gregor and GregorR-L do not have to be the same
03:10:17 <Figs> you can fly?!?!
03:10:27 <pikhq> But I know that www.codu.org is his website. . .
03:10:32 <pikhq> And that Gregor's his name.
03:10:47 <GregorR-L> And that there are about two other Gregor's in existence on Earth :P
03:10:49 <oerjan> of course he can fly. he's got a semi-secret identity!
03:11:22 <Figs> Vehicular Homicide....?
03:11:59 <oerjan> i _think_ this goes beyond my mathematical abilities.
03:12:14 <Figs> you have remember to care the crap manually, otherwise you'll get an overflow error
03:13:41 <Figs> http://www.codu.org/badinsurance-2/ <<-- what is this, anyway?
03:14:12 <GregorR-L> Figs: Utterly random manipulated insurance quote :P
03:14:16 <pikhq> oerjan: Not really. All I need to do is figure out what the multiplication operator means in terms of the non-numbers.
03:15:27 <RodgerTheGreat> Figs: of course I can fly. I'm a caped crusader on the internet, remember?
03:16:01 <oerjan> those capes are _very_ aerodynamical.
03:16:45 <Figs> http://www.codu.org/eso/glass/
03:16:58 <GregorR-L> oerjan: Don't you mean Aero-Dynamic-Host-Configuration-Proticolable?
03:17:33 <pikhq> RodgerTheGreat: Sorry, but only Cory Doctorow has a cape.
03:17:54 <oerjan> !glass {M[m(_o)O!"Hello, world!\n"(_o)o.?]}
03:18:02 <pikhq> GregorR-L: Is there a badinsurance-1?
03:18:18 <GregorR-L> pikhq: It disappeared in mysterious circumstances.
03:18:36 <pikhq> Permission requested to get something more evil.
03:19:56 <pikhq> Let's try to get a 10-year-old on that policy. . .
03:20:15 <GregorR-L> You do realize you have no reason to ask my permission? :P
03:20:32 <pikhq> More just declaring intent than anything else. :p
03:21:11 -!- calamari has joined.
03:21:40 <oerjan> ooh, two superheroes in one channel!
03:21:53 <Figs> FIGHT, FIGHT, FIGHT, FIGHT....!
03:23:31 <Figs> power metal cakepan O.o
03:25:34 <oerjan> for all your household negotiation needs?
03:25:46 <Figs> http://www.codu.org/omusic/?title=ale-power%20metal%20cakepan.mid
03:26:10 * RodgerTheGreat is listening to Chiron Beta Prime by Jonathan Coulton from Thing a Week
03:26:47 <GregorR-L> Figs: Apparently it's explore-Gregors-site day?
03:27:04 <Figs> Didn't you get the memo?
03:27:16 <GregorR-L> At least go to www.choosemyhat.com
03:27:19 <pikhq> GregorR-L: It comes up every once in a while.
03:27:26 <Figs> the writer monad page turned brown
03:28:01 <oerjan> there's a writer monad page on Gregor's site?
03:29:45 <Figs> ok, I voted for a hat for friday
03:31:39 <oerjan> no brown page here: http://www.haskell.org/ghc/docs/latest/html/libraries/mtl/Control-Monad-Writer-Lazy.html
03:31:53 <Figs> http://www.haskell.org/all_about_monads/html/writermonad.html
03:32:09 <Figs> I guess I didn't know I scrolled down
03:32:15 <Figs> I've had it open for like, a week
03:32:25 <Figs> switched into it and was like WTF, brown?!
03:33:48 * pikhq attempts to do bad insurance from Progressive. . .
03:34:03 <pikhq> I'm claiming to have a paid-off Mustang, and a Model T I'm still paying on. . .
03:35:11 <pikhq> I'm also putting a 7 year old on the policy.
03:35:45 <GregorR-L> It only lets you put in /drivers/ :(
03:36:12 <pikhq> Hey! 7 year olds are legal in. . . Burbumskistan.\
03:36:31 <GregorR-L> pikhq: Progressive doesn't have policies in Burbumskistan :P
03:37:18 <oerjan> that's not very progressive.
03:38:11 <Figs> is it bad I like "power metal cakepan"?
03:38:28 <Sukoshi> Don't listen to the Haskellites!
03:38:38 <pikhq> I also put an 88-year-old man as the child of a 15 year old.
03:38:41 <Sukoshi> They want to use you for their fiendish stateless reasons!!!
03:39:17 <Figs> Sukoshi, but they keep the seperation between Church and state so well though...
03:39:35 <Sukoshi> THAT IS THE LAMEST CS PUN I'VE EVER HEARD :D
03:39:38 <pikhq> Now for violations.
03:39:39 <bsmntbombdood> it's impossible to prove that a halting oracle cannot be built
03:39:56 * Figs flips the database's on/off server
03:40:03 <Figs> hahahah!!! halting oracle
03:40:23 * Figs drops dead for violating the laws of CS
03:41:15 <oerjan> bsmntbombdood: well it would require proving something about the physical world, which is impossible.
03:41:15 <Figs> I forgot the batteries
03:42:09 <pikhq> Vehicular homicide *and* leaving the scene.
03:43:01 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good night").
03:44:23 <Figs> these cheap earphones hurt
03:45:39 <RodgerTheGreat> GregorR-L: what do you think? http://www.nonlogic.org/dump/images/1184899477-gregor.png
03:46:42 <RodgerTheGreat> Figs: I actually thought the Church/state thing was a mildly clever pun. :)
03:47:01 <GregorR-L> I think that me is a bit whiter than me :P
03:47:02 <RodgerTheGreat> and I used the original photo's background for added flair
03:47:53 <RodgerTheGreat> (original photo: http://www.codu.org/hats/Tyrolean-med.jpg)
03:49:29 <RodgerTheGreat> I'm pretty decent with dithered black and white: http://rodger.nonlogic.org/art/Wumpus.gif
03:55:43 <pikhq> Somehow, increasing the coverage amount decreases my policy.
04:03:41 <RodgerTheGreat> hey, Sukoshi- would you like an avatar like the one I made for Gregor?
04:03:46 <pikhq> $15,999.00 is my current 6 month estimate.
04:04:27 <pikhq> WE HAVE HIT $16,000!
04:05:12 <pikhq> A 1908 Model T and a Ford Mustang, with a 15-year-old driver with 3 homicides, 3 failures to report, 3 leaving the scenes, and 1 running from police. . .
04:05:33 <pikhq> His child is an 88 year old with 3 homicides, 2 failures to report, 3 leaving the scenes, and a misreport.
04:06:57 <RodgerTheGreat> I'd almost want to buy that policy just to watch the insurance agent shit his-/her- self when they read the forms
04:07:25 <pikhq> Also, since I made up the names and addresses, that's without any credit at all.
04:07:49 <RodgerTheGreat> hm. Too bad you can't spoof some kind of horrific credit history
04:08:36 <RodgerTheGreat> "Declared bankruptcy 7 times in 3 states. Currently is over $120,000 in debt."
04:11:06 <RodgerTheGreat> we aim to please, and will produce an image to whatever exacting specifications you desire!
04:11:46 <RodgerTheGreat> (we referring, of course, to myself and my army of enslaved leprechauns and pixies used in the generation of art.)
04:13:19 <pikhq> Good leprechauns and pixies?
04:18:23 <Figs> did I miss much?
04:18:51 <Figs> oh, cool pick rodger
04:19:10 <Figs> I should get you to do pixel art for my game... if I ever get around working on that engine
04:19:18 -!- Sgeo has quit ("Ex-Chat").
04:19:21 <Figs> got to finish this parser crap first :D
04:19:28 <Figs> one project at a time :PO
04:20:00 <RodgerTheGreat> Figs: Sure. I've helped a number of people with graphics for their games over in ##Nonlogic
04:20:13 <pikhq> And now, let's add on a couple of DUIs. . .
04:20:59 <RodgerTheGreat> the most recent game I'm helping with is sortof a mario clone being coded by a guy named Merthsoft
04:21:16 <RodgerTheGreat> here's the ground tileset I whipped up for it: http://nonlogic.org/dump/images/1184878772-MonkeyTiles2.png
04:21:36 <Figs> want to take on my pic?
04:21:45 <Figs> wtf happened to my paste :P
04:21:55 <Figs> http://wiki.thecodebit.net/Image:Figs.jpg
04:21:58 <RodgerTheGreat> and an anim I did for the player: http://rodger.nonlogic.org/images/monkeyWalk.gif
04:22:37 <Figs> Something I can use as an avatar for MSN/AIM
04:22:49 <pikhq> DUI, drag racing, without a license. :D
04:23:28 -!- Tritonio has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
04:24:01 <Figs> 48x48 for AIM, 96x96 for MSN O.o
04:24:31 <Figs> one of them can be either double or half
04:24:34 <RodgerTheGreat> do you want it in color, grayscale or black and white?
04:24:41 <Figs> color could be nice :)
04:24:51 <Figs> muchos gracias :D
04:24:54 -!- Tritonio has joined.
04:24:58 <Figs> That pic is like 2 years out of date
04:25:02 <Figs> but it's the most recent I can find :P
04:25:07 <RodgerTheGreat> I guess I'll try to go for 48x48- we'll see what I can do
04:25:09 * Figs doesn't like to have his picture taken :P
04:25:10 <pikhq> GregorR-L: Does not having a valid license help?
04:25:25 <GregorR-L> pikhq: Idonno, I didn't try very hard :P
04:25:34 <Figs> put license suspended in 3 states :D
04:26:28 <RodgerTheGreat> Figs: I just listened to that midi file you posted- it's really cool
04:27:05 <Figs> Gregor's site, I think
04:27:08 <pikhq> Just drag racing, DUI, and driving with suspension. . .
04:27:59 <Figs> add Grand Theft Auto
04:28:45 <pikhq> License status does jack.
04:29:11 <pikhq> I'm still putting it as suspended. >:D
04:29:57 <GregorR-L> pikhq: My assumption was that it would basically not count a suspended/expired/not-usable license since it would assume that was basically a non-driver.
04:30:20 <pikhq> A suspended lets you get insured.
04:30:33 <pikhq> Expired/revoked/non-licensed does jack.
04:30:40 <Figs> +10 kudos if you can figure out what type of building I was in when that picture was taken :)
04:30:44 <pikhq> You can't go any further in the system.
04:32:15 <Figs> scroll up bsmnt
04:32:25 <GregorR-L> I see two fans, a window and a nerd.
04:32:50 <GregorR-L> Just looks like a living room to me.
04:33:08 <Figs> Rodger: getting there
04:33:22 <GregorR-L> Figs: Reflection of a fan on the far left (may not be a fan), and something that looks like part of a fan on the right (may not be a fan)
04:33:36 <Figs> that's a boat, I think
04:34:07 <Figs> on the right, that's a very big antenna
04:34:54 <Figs> the room is air conditioned :P
04:34:57 <Figs> so I know it's not fans
04:35:10 <Figs> and that thing's been hanging there for god knows how long
04:35:18 <pikhq> Now, to add a Pinto.
04:35:28 <Figs> but I think it can pick up a wifi connection from 26 miles away :P
04:35:41 <Figs> very narrow though :P
04:35:59 <GregorR-L> bsmntbombdood: Are you propositioning me???
04:36:43 <Figs> basically, it looks similar to this
04:37:00 <GregorR-L> bsmntbombdood: I did for a while, but that sucked.
04:37:01 <Figs> http://www.radiolabs.com/products/antennas/2.4gig/2.4grid.php
04:37:12 <pikhq> irssi + screen = <3
04:37:25 <GregorR-L> bsmntbombdood: People always thought I had been there for a while when I just joined, so I could never get joined into the convo properly.
04:37:31 <GregorR-L> bsmntbombdood: Basically terrible in every way :P
04:38:32 <Figs> it's a physic teacher's office :P
04:38:55 <Figs> it was also my computer science class room
04:39:45 <Figs> They taught us networking
04:39:54 <Figs> and I self-taught myself some CS
04:39:59 <RodgerTheGreat> and it's named WOPR because our computer science department has some very oldschool nerds
04:39:59 <Figs> while working on that parser
04:40:13 <Figs> pikhq: that's more than my tuition
04:41:12 <Figs> I'm still listening to 'cakepan'
04:41:19 <pikhq> It's amazing what driving a Model T, a Mustang, and a Pinto can do.
04:41:31 <pikhq> $40,762.00 with a lower deductible.
04:42:59 <GregorR-L> pikhq: I would have never thought to add a Pinto :)
04:43:40 <GregorR-L> bsmntbombdood: In the singular case, you use 'is'
04:44:18 <bsmntbombdood> silly GregorR-L, right grammar is for silly people
04:45:25 <GregorR-L> bsmntbombdood: YOUR FACE IS BORING
04:45:31 <Figs> just for you, special $99.95 only, you can make the plural of Be into Ce today.
04:45:34 <GregorR-L> bsmntbombdood: BORING INTO THE SURFACE OF THE EARTH
04:45:35 <RodgerTheGreat> Figs: what color would you say your eyes are- blue-grey?
04:46:25 <pikhq> GregorR-L: Let's change the 88 year old to another teenager.
04:46:49 <pikhq> Invalid according to them.
04:47:18 <Figs> so, if I'm 115, I can't get car insurance without lying about my age?
04:47:48 <pikhq> I think you have to call it in.
04:48:25 <Figs> *Shrug* some people tell me they look hazel
04:48:28 <Figs> I call them brown :P
04:49:17 <Figs> no. they're perl white :)
04:49:51 <Figs> yes, I am going to pun hell for that one :P
04:50:07 <pikhq> "This is what happens when you play GTA in what you *think* is VR."
04:51:04 <Figs> "Wow, the graphics are so good! How'd they make those special effects? That guys dialog still sounds fake though."
04:51:22 <pikhq> I need somewhere higher rated for these people to live.
04:52:10 <pikhq> Got a zip code in there?
04:52:13 <Figs> cali.for(ni -> a, !!)
04:52:24 <GregorR-L> http://www.google.com/search?q=california+los+angeles+zip+codes
04:52:52 <Figs> guess where that picture was taken
04:55:18 <Figs> welcome to the tackiest place on earth
04:55:18 <Figs> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d6/Breezewood%2C_Pennsylvania.jpg
04:55:19 <RodgerTheGreat> Figs: what do you think of this? http://www.nonlogic.org/dump/images/1184903649-fig.png
04:55:34 <Figs> pretty good so far
04:55:40 <GregorR-L> Figs: That picture makes me want to die
04:55:54 <Figs> I've been there
04:56:15 <Figs> roadtrip from DC -> Pittsburg
04:56:19 <RodgerTheGreat> it's pretty much done- I'm not sure what else you want
04:57:15 <Figs> pikhq, see if you can make it top a CEO's pay :D
04:57:36 <RodgerTheGreat> well, you already beat steve jobs, not counting stock options
04:59:01 <Figs> don't drop chair on crotch
05:00:00 <Figs> that rate is more than I have made in my entire life
05:00:23 * RodgerTheGreat is listening to Grass Stains by Tackle from Cave Story Remix Project
05:00:52 <Figs> Dokutsu Monogatari FTW
05:01:12 <Figs> I'm stuck at hell :P
05:01:18 <Figs> I can't beat the giant press
05:01:19 <pikhq> bsmntbombdood: Yeah.
05:01:25 <pikhq> GregorR-L: Want it for badinsurance-3?
05:01:37 <RodgerTheGreat> normally I hate platformers, but Cave Story instantly carved out a spot in my heart
05:02:04 <RodgerTheGreat> it sits next to Kirby Superstar as the exceptions to my platformer rule
05:02:20 <pikhq> http://pikhq.nonlogic.org/Quote.html
05:03:02 <RodgerTheGreat> I just can't read "Vehicular Homicide" without laughing my ass off and thinking of UT2004
05:03:45 <pikhq> I call the drag racing violations the most beautiful of them all.
05:04:24 <GregorR-L> Drag racing while under the influence and under suspension :P
05:04:56 <RodgerTheGreat> I have this mental image of "The Fast and the Furious: Model T Drift"
05:05:22 <GregorR-L> SLOW DOWN, YOU'RE GONNA KILL YOURSELF!
05:05:51 <Figs> see what it is with Geico
05:06:24 <pikhq> I'll do that later.
05:06:28 <bsmntbombdood> http://revistes.upc.es/wiki/images/f/f2/Rofl-mao.jpg
05:06:59 <RodgerTheGreat> that image could not be used at a more appropriate time
05:08:04 <RodgerTheGreat> "The Ford Model T: If you're not outta control, you're not IN control."
05:08:23 <pikhq> "Model T: I'd steal this."
05:10:13 <RodgerTheGreat> who wants to help me make a Model T offroad racing game at some point in the unspecified future?
05:10:14 <Figs> I've actually seen a model T in use :P
05:10:44 <RodgerTheGreat> "We're gonna pimp that T out in a new paint job- you can get it in any color ya want as long as it's black."
05:11:25 <Figs> "Model T Offroad!: It's T-rickin'"
05:11:35 <Figs> if you prefer :P
05:12:14 <pikhq> "Would I pay all my salary on this? Damned right."
05:13:39 <RodgerTheGreat> Ford should reintroduce the line. "At the Detroit Auto Show, the biggest announcement of the season: The new 2008 Model T."
05:14:23 <pikhq> Coming in every color *but* black.
05:14:45 <Sukoshi> Drive the new Ford Model T. It's T-rashy, we guarantee it!
05:15:27 <Figs> Devil's Own Black
05:17:34 <Sukoshi> You always forget the red people. Always :(
05:17:42 <pikhq> 2008 Model T: designed by Henry Ford via Ouija board.
05:18:28 <Sukoshi> The whole Ouija board thing became cool in our school last year for a few months.
05:18:45 <RodgerTheGreat> it'd be hand-built, totally standardized, the engine would run like a fine watch (at around 10hp), and there'd be some antisemetic commentary in there somewhere
05:19:14 <Sukoshi> Ooh. Can I provide the Anti-semetic commentary?
05:19:27 <pikhq> And it'd be available in black or swastika-textured black. :p
05:19:31 <Sukoshi> RodgerTheGreat: You know teenagers and the sudden unge for the super-natural.
05:19:45 <Sukoshi> I have a new cool nickname at school.
05:20:31 <RodgerTheGreat> at least they aren't referring to you as a dude who was embalmed and placed on display after his death
05:21:03 <Sukoshi> Ever since most of us have gone to AP World History, Communist has become a larger and larger fad at our school.
05:21:31 <Sukoshi> Only among honors students though.
05:21:42 <Sukoshi> Some of the people in the fad are actual Communists, methinks, but most of us just do it for the fun of waving around red flags and drawing neo-Marxist symbols.
05:22:02 <Sukoshi> I made the Hammer-Sickle smilie-face ;)
05:22:07 <pikhq> I'd prefer to be a French revolutionary.
05:22:23 <pikhq> Randomly shout "Liberte, egalite, fraternite!" (misspelt, I know)
05:22:43 <RodgerTheGreat> after my honors english class read and discussed Animal Farm, everyone in class referred to one another as "comrade" for the remaining three years of high school
05:24:19 <RodgerTheGreat> we also did an activity where we divided the classroom into a small "ruling class" and proletariats, and the idea was that the ruling class would become corrupt. Problem was, we put so many checks and balances into the system when we created it that it turned out utopian.
05:24:35 <RodgerTheGreat> It was a hilariously bad "example of how communism is evil"
05:25:09 <pikhq> Communism isn't neccesarily evil, it just depends upon a hard-to-corrupt democratic system to actually work.
05:25:47 <RodgerTheGreat> I'm not saying it's evil, I'm saying that was the point we were supposed to learn from the activity (although not explicitly stated as such)
05:26:00 <pikhq> Which is kind of stupid.
05:26:24 <pikhq> It's usually implied that communism is a system of government, rather than an economic system. . .
05:26:31 <Figs> we had to build things out of paper in my literature class
05:26:40 <pikhq> Well, in that case, the teacher should just be beaten, rather than executed. :p
05:26:42 <Figs> I think we had to build a structure that could hold up books out of just paper
05:26:55 * pikhq really doesn't like teachers that are horribly wrong
05:27:15 * Figs hands pikhq HP6
05:27:17 <RodgerTheGreat> the only time I ever had to build things out of paper was my "introduction to engineering class" (which I was transferred into when my HS cancelled Electronics ||.)
05:28:23 <Figs> I should learn how to obfuscate perl and scheme
05:28:31 <Figs> Pascal and Java
05:28:33 <RodgerTheGreat> but it was pretty sweet. 12 inches high, made out of 3 pieces of 8.5x11 paper and a meter of masking tape, held 9.8 kilos
05:28:56 <Figs> some would call that a Freudian Slip... :P
05:30:06 <Figs> ... So, Newton, Pascal, and Einstein are playing hide and seek...
05:30:11 <RodgerTheGreat> obfuscating Java is pretty much as simple as abstracting everything to a ridiculous degree until people can sift through all your code files, read TONS of javadoc comments and be utterly incapable of figuring out where your code is
05:30:23 <Figs> Einstein starts counting, and Pascal runs off.
05:30:49 <Figs> Newton, on the other hand, pulls out a bit of chalk and draws a 1 meter by 1 meter square on the floor and stands in it.
05:30:52 <RodgerTheGreat> I page through a ton of anstractions and interfaces, get to the center of things, and I'm like "where *IS* it?"
05:31:10 <Figs> Einstein finishes counting, and, of course, sees Newton still standing there
05:31:17 <Figs> "Ah ha! Found you Newton..."
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05:31:38 <Figs> "No no... This is 1 Newton per square meter, and that's Pascal!"
05:31:38 <RodgerTheGreat> I just assume that programmers at Sun are magical and figured out how to abstract everything until it requires zero code to implement
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05:35:50 <Sukoshi> Make it a Communist one too!
05:36:07 <Figs> http://www.berro.com/joke/best_lawyer_story.htm
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05:36:22 <Sukoshi> RodgerTheGreat: Or you can pass Objects everywhere and cast when you need something ;D
05:36:33 <Sukoshi> (Basically copying the C obfuscation process of casting void* )
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05:39:20 <Sukoshi> RodgerTheGreat: How large is this avatar?
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05:39:43 <Figs> http://www.berro.com/joke/best_10_answering_machine_messag.htm
05:40:11 <RodgerTheGreat> Sukoshi: any size you want. I normally do them at roughly 128x128, but the source image can be any size
05:41:46 <Sukoshi> http://faculty.umf.maine.edu/~walters/web%20104/ww1%20halt%20the%20hun.jpeg <-- See the German guy? Make his costume red.
05:42:45 <Sukoshi> Because I'm not even of that skin color, to begin with :P
05:43:18 <RodgerTheGreat> but I'll be working with the *magic* of creative embellishment here
05:43:21 <Sukoshi> But I always envisioned a romanticized Bolshevik as one of those guys, but in red clothing.
05:43:40 <Sukoshi> And with a Hammer-and-Sickle on their chest.
05:44:02 <Sukoshi> The spike on the head is quite awesome :P
05:44:08 <Sukoshi> (WWI germans had style, that's for sure.)
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05:47:46 <Figs> http://www.berro.com/joke/cardiologist_proctologist_gynecologist_joke.htm
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05:59:14 <RodgerTheGreat> very, very rough and non-done, but what are you thinking of this sketch, Sukoshi? http://www.nonlogic.org/dump/images/1184907472-suki.png
06:03:32 <Figs> Rodger, there are 10 kinds of people... those who know binary, and those who don't.
06:05:19 <pikhq> http://xkcd.com/c292.html
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06:07:09 <Figs> my brain hurts
06:07:12 <Figs> is that a bad sign?
06:11:22 <Sukoshi> Hey, that *is* quite awesome!
06:11:34 <Sukoshi> Can you put a yellow hammer-sickle on his red tunic?
06:12:23 <RodgerTheGreat> I'm drawing one on the side of the helmet- I think you'll like how the final version looks
06:14:33 <RodgerTheGreat> don't go anywhere for a minute or two, just gotta complete a few finishing touches...
06:14:37 <Figs> o.o.o.o.o.o.o.o.o.o.o.o.o.o
06:14:44 <Figs> -.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-
06:15:32 <RodgerTheGreat> http://www.nonlogic.org/dump/images/1184908475-suki.png
06:15:40 <Figs> Sleep Deprevation
06:16:44 <RodgerTheGreat> I'm not trying to draw 100% realistic anatomy here- it's a cartoon. :)
06:17:02 <Figs> I need to learn how to do shading
06:17:10 <Figs> how do you make it work?
06:17:56 <RodgerTheGreat> imagine a light source... kinda raytrace the object in your head
06:20:17 <GreaseMonkey> if you want feedback, just crank the volume up on the amplifier
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06:21:16 <RodgerTheGreat> I saw that happen to a sound guy once- he just about shit himself
06:21:20 <Figs> WEeeh arrrrrrrrnekll BZZZZ EEEERRRRMMMMPH!
06:21:40 <RodgerTheGreat> and then you could see him just *frantically* trying to adjust for everything manually
06:22:11 <Figs> Hey Oklopol, wake up
06:22:36 <RodgerTheGreat> 'course at that time I was sitting at the light board waiting to press "go" to step to the next cue in the huge list I'd punched in for the show
06:22:58 <RodgerTheGreat> it kinda takes the fun out of running a show when you just hit one button all night
06:23:36 <Figs> well, at least that way, your button pushing finger won't get sore
06:23:54 <bsmntbombdood> <RodgerTheGreat> but it was pretty sweet. 12 inches high, made out of 3 pieces of 8.5x11 paper and a meter of masking tape, held 9.8 kilos
06:24:22 <Figs> triangles, I'll bet :P
06:24:34 <RodgerTheGreat> I built it like a triangular honeycomb, oriented vertically
06:24:52 <Figs> sounds like out projects :P
06:25:18 <RodgerTheGreat> and I came up with a clever way to minimize the usage of tape, so I could make it a bit wider than it would've been otherwise
06:26:36 <RodgerTheGreat> I still have the beam, along with my balsa-wood bridge and my crowning achievement- my egg-drop vehicle.
06:26:51 <Figs> egg-drop vehicle?
06:27:08 <RodgerTheGreat> a thing you can put an egg inside and then drop about 30 feet onto concrete
06:28:07 <RodgerTheGreat> *BOTH* my egg and my vehicle were completely unharmed (and the vehicle was *really* lightweight because of how I built it), and I proved it by dropping the thing a second time just for shits and giggles
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06:29:22 <RodgerTheGreat> the one thing I utterly failed at (and have failed at repeatedly throughout my school career) was the mousetrap vehicle. I got something like 3rd in the class, and I hated that thing
06:30:07 <RodgerTheGreat> my bridge performed pretty well- 16 inches wide, 44 grams heavy and it held about 46 pounds of sand.
06:31:04 <RodgerTheGreat> it was built mostly out of toothpicks with some small balsawood main members, very intricate crossbracing and a road surface made out of posterboard
06:35:42 <RodgerTheGreat> ok, Figs- here's a joke you can add to your collection. I thought of it in one of my CS classes.
06:36:08 <RodgerTheGreat> "I'm going to start a children's cartoon series about String manipulation in C".
06:38:59 <pikhq_> GregorR-L: Thanks to your website, I have come to one conclusion: you have changed your AIM screenname.
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06:40:02 <pikhq> You're not logged in under that on AIM, and that's no longer valid on Yahoo.
06:40:18 <GregorR-L> I haven't used YIM in years because nobody uses it :P
06:40:26 <pikhq> I know one person that does. . .
06:43:23 <pikhq> Are the internets still being juggled?
06:45:45 <RodgerTheGreat> hooray. I finally made another news posting for my website.
06:49:26 <GregorR-L> Hey, I have a sprite-based 3D shooter!
06:49:28 <GregorR-L> http://gregorr.homelinux.org/js3d/t3d/3d.html
06:50:02 <RodgerTheGreat> holy poop, GregorR-L- I just now realized you can walk around
06:50:50 <RodgerTheGreat> we seriously need to figure out how to make this into a game or something
06:51:14 <GregorR-L> But I'm incapable of anything creative or interesting.
06:51:39 <RodgerTheGreat> I'm capable of somewhat creative and interesting things
06:52:46 <GregorR-L> I originally made it to make something on the Wii :P
06:53:13 <Figs> I'm capable of never finishing anything
06:53:13 <pikhq> You need to do some SVG stuff if possible.
06:53:34 * GregorR-L finds it unlikely that it's possible.
06:53:57 <RodgerTheGreat> but yeah, that would suck to try getting working on most browsers
06:54:20 <RodgerTheGreat> so we're best off making graphics that are *meant* to look pixelated
06:54:53 <pikhq> GregorR-L: You're a fucking genious. . .
06:54:55 <GregorR-L> http://www.donotputthebaby.com/index.php?s=Pixel :)
06:55:52 <Figs> I need a keyboard again
06:56:02 <Figs> My musical creativity is shitty now without a keyboard :(
06:56:02 <GregorR-L> I just bought a keyboard on the internets yesterday.
06:56:17 <Figs> it's on the other side of the continent
06:56:50 <RodgerTheGreat> 'later everybody. Somebody tell me what sukoshi thinks of the avatar when I get back
06:57:04 <RodgerTheGreat> and then gregor and I can come up with some ideas for a 3d game
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07:04:06 <bsmntbombdood> dijkstra should have never written his goto paper :(
07:05:37 <pikhq> Dijkstra should have written it, and then formed the National Society for Executing Goto Users.
07:06:48 <pikhq> Who are the only ones that do.
07:08:41 <pikhq> "foo: call foo" is an infinite loop in assembly. ;)
07:10:04 <bsmntbombdood> ((lambda (x) (x x)) (call/cc (lambda (k) (k k)))) is an infinite loop in call/cc
07:10:37 <pikhq> Name to me one valid usage of goto.
07:11:06 <bsmntbombdood> control constructs the language designers didn't think of
07:11:12 <Figs> pikhq: obfuscation
07:12:16 <pikhq> bsmntbombdood: Not granted.
07:12:24 <pikhq> If you need goto for that, your language sucks.
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07:19:35 <pikhq> Stating that it is doesn't mean anything about the validity of its usage.
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07:38:29 <Figs> my music is teh suxor
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07:41:33 <Figs> I can't tell...
07:41:34 <Figs> http://www.megaupload.com/?d=DKNHJR30
07:41:38 <Figs> is this good or shitty?
07:44:03 <GregorR-L> I'm not going to download it, because that question has no correct answer :)
07:44:30 <Figs> sometimes it has an obvious answer :P
07:48:39 <Figs> ok, how about this...
07:48:39 <Figs> does this sound like video game music?
07:49:26 <GregorR-L> It works pretty well, but it feels like the melody is never allowed to come to a natural conclusion.
07:49:35 <Figs> well, it's not finished
07:50:17 <Figs> it's just a 20 second or so bit that I just wrote :P
07:51:24 <Figs> any suggestions for how to improve it?
07:51:25 <Figs> (other than finishing it :P)
07:53:32 <Figs> http://www.megaupload.com/?d=W5O7TOFK
07:53:48 <Figs> I wrote this yesterday... my friend thinks my percussion is psychotic
07:54:06 <Figs> (I'm not very good with that :P)
07:55:14 <Figs> can you distinguish the melody?
07:59:01 <GregorR-L> I can distinguish me going to sleep.
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07:59:15 <Figs> anyone else :D
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08:58:30 <fizzie> Here's probably the ugliest "goto" line I have in C code I've written: goto *(*((void *(*)[256])&bff[oo]))[pf[ipc]]; (Uses GCC's computed-goto extension, basically a way to manually build jump tables.)
08:58:58 <fizzie> Too bad both the goto-ers already left.
09:07:51 <Baughn> fizzie: For what it's worth, I agree that it's ugly. Cast and all.
09:10:40 <Sukoshi> There are times when old code is too unreadable and must be replaced by new code during a revision.
09:10:44 <Sukoshi> This is one of those times.
09:16:06 <Sukoshi> Why does a BufferedReader throw an IOException?
09:16:20 <Sukoshi> Wait hmm. Maybe I should print out that string message thingamabobber.
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10:28:31 <Sukoshi> So. What causes an IOException in a BufferedReader?
10:33:56 <fizzie> Most probably an IOException from the underlying WhateverReader.
10:38:24 <fizzie> You should probably provide more information if you want a more detailed answer. The possible reasons for exception are quite different for, say, an InputStreamReader reading a socket than a FileReader.
10:39:48 <fizzie> I assume it's just a generic IOException and not one of the N more specific subclasses you can also catch with a catch(IOException e)?
10:42:34 <Sukoshi> I've guarded against EOFs and such, so, I'm failing to see the problem here.
10:44:40 <fizzie> It happens when you read(...) things, I assume? And the file is a plain old regular file?
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10:49:27 <fizzie> That's... interesting.
10:49:55 <fizzie> The .getMessage() message wasn't enlightening at all?
10:54:19 <fizzie> Is that the official Sun runtime you're doing this on? :p
11:01:35 <Sukoshi> An existentially qualified goal G is a logical consequence of a program P if there is a clause in P with a ground instance A <- B_1, ..., B_n, n >= 0 such that B_1, ..., B_n are logical consequences of P, and A is an instance of G.
11:03:21 <Sukoshi> This is one of those times to go ``ROFL wut?!''
11:06:45 <Sukoshi> Essentially, it's saying that, if a logical clause is substituted with another clause and produces the goal, the set of facts that make up the goal represent a program.
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12:46:26 * SimonRC thinks that Figs needs some web hosting
12:47:57 <SimonRC> hell even a pbwiki would help him host stuff
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12:54:38 <andreou> SimonRC: bored, aren't we?
12:56:29 <andreou> got an old p2 mobo (with a p3 cpu, running just fine). damned thing, doesn't see my 80GB ide disk
13:01:04 <fizzie> I used to have a 32G limit problem with one motherboard, before they (finally, after a lot of waiting) made a BIOS upgrade (released only as a beta version) for it. In the meanwhile a working workaround was to jumper the disk to look like a 32G one, and set CONFIG_IDEDISK_STROKE on. That configuration setting doesn't seem to exist any more, though.
13:02:39 <andreou> i thought linux didn't use bios settings to detect the disks
13:03:54 <andreou> or that it wasn't absolutely bios dependent
13:04:33 <fizzie> In my case the box didn't boot at all if a larger drive was present, so that necessitated the jumpering.
13:05:05 <andreou> well it boots but doesn't detect the disk. or when in auto/lba, it just sticks there
13:05:08 <fizzie> And CONFIG_IDEDISK_STROKE was necessary for Linux to see that it really wasn't a 32G disk.
13:05:58 <fizzie> If your disk has the 32G limit jumper, you could of course pretty easily turn it on and check if it helps. Who knows, maybe Linux nowadays notices the real size without any strange configuratations.
13:07:06 <fizzie> Besides, 32G should be enough for everyone!
13:07:32 <ehird`> 2 cells of tape should be enough for anyone
13:08:00 <ehird`> well i guess if you have arbitary-sized integers on the two cells it is :)
13:08:13 <andreou> maybe if i enter the C/H/S data by hand it'll be ok
13:09:14 <fizzie> If you end up using the 32G-cap jumper, do boot your kernels with "hdX=stroke" (where X is the right letter, of course); seems that they've changed it from the configure-time option to a boot-time option in 2.6.7.
13:09:33 <fizzie> Without that it'll use the capped capacity.
13:10:18 <andreou> i think i have issues against stroking my hard drive
13:10:34 <fizzie> You need to stroke your hard drive if you want it to appear larger.
13:15:26 <andreou> xm maybe i should use capacity limit
13:20:19 <andreou> brb, off to blow up a disk
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13:34:46 <andreou> (with cap on and stroke on or off)
13:35:46 <andreou> any way to update the bios from within linux (and without a floppy)
13:47:16 <fizzie> Usually I've just written a suitable boot floppy image to an El Torito floppy-emulation-boot-CD, but that might not be an option.
13:48:55 <andreou> dtk can well be one of the worse mobo manufacturers
13:49:01 <andreou> and how come that all the .tw sites are so slow
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14:19:38 <andreou> back to the other box, the disk goes
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16:26:54 <SimonRC> RodgerTheGreat: I found another bug in CRPG
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17:50:07 <blahbot`> it is appreciated. i cannot test as i am a lowly bot.
17:50:22 <blahbot`> thank you for being kind to a poor, lonely, helpless bot.
17:50:37 <andreou> oh god it's HHGTTG all over again ;p
17:50:49 <blahbot`> can i run some brainfuck in return? or do you request no payment?
17:50:49 <andreou> blahbot`: unload depression
17:51:12 -!- blahbot` has changed nick to marvinbot`.
17:51:31 <marvinbot`> i'll go and unload my memory circuits now.
17:52:37 <marvinbot`> i can tell you don't really want to run that code.
17:53:53 <ihope> marvinbot`: can you offer a suggestion as to what code should be run?
17:54:25 <marvinbot`> ERROR: memory circuits unplugged, please remember something to continue
17:54:47 * ihope remembers something
17:55:12 <ehird`> no, marvinbot` has to remember something
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17:56:08 * ihope reminds marvinbot` of something
17:56:09 <marvinbot`> I REMEMBER THAT LIFE AS A BOT IS WORTHLESS
17:56:39 <ihope> marvinbot`: I'll buy your life for $1.50.
17:56:55 <marvinbot`> i can tell you don't really think it's worth that much.
17:57:45 <ihope> Are you calling me dishonest?
19:13:55 <Sukoshi> Does InputStream.read() only read 1 byte?
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19:57:14 <Sukoshi> ehird`: Never mind. I just made a big booboo while coding.
19:57:41 <Sukoshi> I just did a C-ism and didn't realize, heh.
19:58:00 <Sukoshi> I feel like writing an emulator in C. It's been a while since I've done nice low-level coding.
19:58:06 <Sukoshi> That, or I should work on ecp again :(
20:03:12 -!- oerjan has joined.
20:06:39 * ehird` wants to implement his APL-alike language in APL
20:06:47 <ehird`> or my perfect-language in perfect-language
20:06:59 <ehird`> low level programming in high level languages is fun :P
20:07:26 <ihope> Perfect-language...
20:07:38 <ehird`> is the language in my head which is perfect in every way.
20:07:42 <ehird`> and almost impossible to implement.
20:08:30 <ehird`> it's a programming language
20:08:43 <ihope> First-order logic pretending to be something new?
20:08:57 <ehird`> how did i describe it, again...
20:09:33 <ehird`> "a metapattern-filled holy cross between Lisp, Perl, Python, Ruby, Tcl and C# that isn't as horrible as it sounds"
20:10:24 <ehird`> bsmntbombdood, the compiler, interpreter and parser are all written in itself and you can extend its syntax. use its interface to write an s-exp parser, set the parser to that, voila
20:10:41 <ihope> You know, I should prototype my wonderful language.
20:11:06 <ihope> There's let and lambda...
20:11:42 <ehird`> oh yes, Haskell is in the mix too
20:11:47 <ehird`> so you have monads, i guess.
20:12:14 <ehird`> so you have the bizzare situation of having memory-allocate, memory-free, and things about a million times more high-level than them
20:13:06 <ihope> Yes, let is lambda...
20:17:44 <Sukoshi> I like low level programming.
20:27:52 <ehird`> i do too but not when it involves C!
20:27:59 <ehird`> I only write low level code in my perfect language!
20:33:59 <ihope> Your perfect language is the only one you write it in?
20:34:16 <ihope> As opposed to it being the only thing you write in it?
20:35:34 <ehird`> i only write low-level code in my language, that includes implementing my language
20:36:41 <ihope> I'm thinking you should implement your perfect language.
20:41:17 <ehird`> but how will i run it since i'll have to write it in itself.
20:45:32 <ehird`> implementing MyLanguage is low-level
20:45:38 <ehird`> i can only write low-level code in MyLanguage
20:46:00 <ehird`> and i can't write a bootstrap interpreter, or anything, since that would be low-level code in something other than MyLanguage
20:46:38 <Sukoshi> I like low level coding in ASM, C, and Forth.
20:47:20 <Sukoshi> That's how I started programming after all, so.
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21:05:15 <ehird`> but confusing when you write the first few words.
21:05:37 -!- Figs has left (?).
21:09:34 <lament> i started programming in basic
21:09:36 <lament> that's why i like basic
21:31:37 <ehird`> FORTH LOVE IF HONK THEN
21:35:51 <oerjan> hm, only 35 google hits for that phrase
21:37:47 <bsmntbombdood> Results 1 - 10 of about 138,000 for FORTH LOVE IF HONK THEN
21:38:19 <oerjan> that's for the separate words
21:38:37 <bsmntbombdood> Results 1 - 10 of about 142 for "FORTH LOVE IF HONK THEN"
21:39:09 <oerjan> i used hyphens. i thought that was equivalent.
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21:57:27 <lament> bsmntbombdood: you have a car?
21:58:27 * lament considers the implication of putting a "ONE LESS CAR" sticker on a car
21:59:21 <oerjan> mapM_ honk . filter (love haskell)
21:59:48 <lament> I like "honk if you love honking"
22:01:57 <oerjan> "honk if you hate bumper stickers"
22:06:52 <GregorR> "Honk if you drive an SUV to make up for physical shortcomings"
22:07:15 <oerjan> "Honk if you are deaf"
22:07:33 <RodgerTheGreat> Sukoshi: did you ever see the final version of the image I drew yesterday evening/this morning?
22:08:30 <GregorR> "Hnko fi slydexic aer oyu"
22:09:21 <GregorR> Took you a while, didn't it? ;)
22:09:29 <oerjan> "Honk if, Yoda are you"
22:09:42 <RodgerTheGreat> actually, that wasn't as hard to read as one would imagine
22:10:19 <GregorR> oerjan: Yodaspeak is OSV, not OVS
22:10:22 <RodgerTheGreat> "ALL YOUR CAR ARE BELONG TO US. YOU HAVE NO CHANCE TO SURVIVE MAKE YOUR HONK."
22:11:40 <oerjan> Rsearceh swohs taht ppoele need olny the frsit and lsat ltteer to be in the cerorct pacle.
22:12:22 <lament> that's bullshit, though.
22:12:50 <RodgerTheGreat> oerjan: that only works properly with carefully selected sentences
22:12:52 <lament> it was a sadly popular meme a year or a few back.
22:13:03 <lament> it's complete nonsense, like most internet memes
22:13:10 <RodgerTheGreat> any anagramatical word pairs are impossible to distinguish if they share first and last letters
22:13:34 <RodgerTheGreat> it *is* impressive when it works, but it doesn't work every time
22:13:55 <lament> RodgerTheGreat: i don't see how it's all impressive. Simply randomly arranging letters also works sometimes.
22:14:52 <lament> humans are smart and good at dealing with corrupted information.
22:14:57 <RodgerTheGreat> it's "impressive" in the same way the "birthday paradox is". It's striking because it's counterintuitive
22:15:04 <oerjan> i note that some people here have a strange ability to misinterpret me as serious.
22:15:27 <Sukoshi> By the way, is it cheaper perfermonce-wise to convert a char[] to a String or a StringBuffer to a String in Java?
22:15:31 <lament> RodgerTheGreat: it's counterintuitive because it's false.
22:15:42 <Sukoshi> Since the size of the char[] will stay fixed.
22:16:06 <RodgerTheGreat> oerjan: well, it was ambiguous wether or not you were trying to be funny, and we just launched off into tangential discussion of it anyway
22:16:49 <oerjan> incidentally in my family we have 3 pairs of people sharing birthdays. (i'm in one of them.)
22:17:05 <RodgerTheGreat> lament: it's counterintuitive and is true in at least some cases, which is enough to *suggest* that it could be true.
22:17:08 <Sukoshi> I'm thinknig char[] -> String is cheaper.
22:17:34 <RodgerTheGreat> Sukoshi: I would think so, but I don't know much about how javac post-optimizes
22:17:53 <lament> RodgerTheGreat: it's true in some cases, but that humans can read text where each word is randomly scrambled is also true in some cases, and a much stronger statement.
22:18:08 <RodgerTheGreat> I'm pretty sure that quoted strings are String literals in java, not char[] literals like in C
22:18:31 <Sukoshi> Well, the thing is, a char[] is fixed length while a StringBuffer is not.
22:18:42 <Sukoshi> So probably StringBuffer deals with malloc/realloc constructs at some level.
22:19:27 <Sukoshi> Because a char[] only needs an initial malloc, if it even does malloc'ing or just does it the C way of arrays.
22:19:28 <GregorR> Are these questions about D?
22:19:43 <GregorR> I didn't know charrays looked like "char[]" in Java X-P
22:20:06 <Sukoshi> [] is used anywhere that * is in C, basically.
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22:20:28 <RodgerTheGreat> although I will point out that it can be misleading to think about JVM memory management in terms of malloc/realloc/dealloc operations
22:20:40 <RodgerTheGreat> they don't necessarily happen where you'd think they would
22:21:30 <Sukoshi> Well, even then, they probably push the offset and the initial location onto the stack and operate like that.
22:27:27 <bsmntbombdood> "Mom wants schools to ban books filled with sin. There goes my trigonometry textbook"
22:28:18 <ihope> Just don't ban them completely.
22:30:25 <RodgerTheGreat> we just need to rename sin as something better, like Piety() or Virtue()
22:31:31 <lament> sin (the trig function) is a strange word
22:31:42 <lament> it's a shortening of sine
22:31:55 <lament> is it really necessary to shorten a 4-letter word to 3 letters?
22:32:28 <lament> oh, i suppose actually sin is from sinus (latin) and has nothing to do with english
22:33:31 <bsmntbombdood> it's terribly annoying when people pronounce those trig functions like their abbreviations
22:34:13 <RodgerTheGreat> I always say the whole name when I write the abbreviation
22:34:39 <lament> in russian we just use the latin terms without any attempt to rusify them
22:34:45 <RodgerTheGreat> how many people here pronounce "char" as "care" and how many pronounce it as in "charred"?
22:35:26 <lament> because english failed to do so, they now have "tangent" meaning two different things
22:36:04 <oerjan> er, were those actually different in Latin?
22:36:27 <RodgerTheGreat> an abbreviation should retain the original pronunciation!
22:36:32 <bsmntbombdood> actually i don't think i've ever said char outloud
22:36:51 <RodgerTheGreat> this means you have a good chance of having an actual life
22:37:00 <lament> oerjan: probably not, but the "tangent line" is translated, unlike the trig term
22:37:25 <lament> oerjan: so for tangent as in "tangent line" we just use "touching"
22:38:00 <oerjan> lament: strangely enough norwegian uses "tangent" for one and "tangens" for the other
22:38:32 <lament> oerjan: tangens is latin. Is tangent norwegian?
22:38:36 <oerjan> but "tangent" is not a free-standing Latin noun
22:38:47 <oerjan> well, both are obviously borrowed
22:38:55 <lament> tangent could be borrowed from english
22:39:17 <oerjan> doubtful, because is stressed on the last syllable. French more likely.
22:39:23 <lament> it's tangente in french
22:39:42 <lament> both norwegian and english borrowed from french, then, while russian borrowed directly from latin
22:40:00 <lament> (and norwegian also borrowed directly from latin for the other term)
22:41:04 <lament> wikipedia says that the terms tangens and secans (i.e. the direct latin borrowings) were introduced by a dutch mathematician
22:41:29 <lament> while 'sin' and 'cos' (the abbreviations) are Euler's
22:43:17 <oerjan> which wikipedia article? the english tangent article only mentions a Danish mathematician
22:44:28 <lament> ah, my mistake, right, danish
22:44:59 <lament> and, er, of course he used the latin terms since the book was written in latin.
22:53:09 <lament> i've never heard anybody say it that way either, although i've read opinions of people who think that's how you should say it.
22:54:10 <lament> well, it is a contraction of character.
22:54:46 <bsmntbombdood> programming languages were never meant to be spoken
22:54:56 <lament> so those who pronounce 'sin' as 'sine' might as well pronounce 'char' as 'car'
22:55:15 <RodgerTheGreat> lament: that's why pronouncing it like "care" seems appropriate
22:55:38 <lament> i don't do it because it sounds ridiculous
22:56:11 <bsmntbombdood> no, those who pronounce 'sin' as 'sine' should pronounce 'char' as 'character'
22:56:24 <lament> bsmntbombdood: yeah, that would make the most sense
22:56:44 <GregorR> Incidentally, /me says "car"
22:56:53 <ihope> What if the programming language happens to include both "char" and "character"?
22:56:53 <lament> but then by extension they would have to say 'integer' for 'int'
22:57:07 <ihope> Haskell has both Int and Integer.
22:57:23 <bsmntbombdood> i think a better solution is to not try to speak unspoken languages
22:57:42 <ihope> Yeah, I guess that's a good solution.
22:57:48 <GregorR> I've seen people say "lieb"
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22:58:01 <lament> bsmntbombdood: then how are you supposed to discuss your code with somebody else?
22:58:13 <ihope> lament: translate it into English on the fly!
22:58:47 <lament> consider: you and somebody else are sitting in front of a computer screen looking at some code.
22:58:55 <ihope> main = getLine >>= putStr
22:59:04 <GregorR> lament: Wet-erase marker ;)
22:59:09 <ihope> Pronounce it "Upon entry, get a line and output it."
22:59:19 <lament> bsmntbombdood: instead of saying "hey, instead of char foo, you should write int foo", you would stand up, go to the whiteboard, and write that on it?
22:59:33 <ihope> lament: tell them s/char/int/
22:59:44 <ihope> Or, better, write that on the whiteboard.
22:59:49 <ihope> Or do it for them.
23:00:17 <ihope> Or you could pronounce everything as in Spanish.
23:00:42 <ihope> "Eent fo-o", roughly.
23:00:55 <ihope> Where the - doesn't actually mean anything.
23:01:26 <ihope> Mine equals hate leenay...
23:02:56 <lament> then char becomes "shahr"
23:04:38 <ihope> They pronounce "ch" like "sh" rather than like "ch"?
23:05:12 <lament> depends on the dialect
23:05:32 <lament> "string" would be "string" in some dialects, and "shtring" in others
23:07:34 <ehird`> ihope, main equals getline 'ros putStr
23:07:51 <ihope> 'ros meaning arrows?
23:08:02 <ehird`> but pronounced briefly, because of big blocks of code.
23:08:40 <ehird`> i might use "to" instead of 'rows
23:08:46 <ehird`> and "is" instead of "equal"
23:08:55 <ehird`> e.g. "main is get line to put ster"
23:09:02 <oerjan> hah, use Czech, then putstr is simply "putstr" :)
23:09:02 <SimonRC> ISTR that >>= is calle "bind"
23:09:15 <lament> i have no problems pronouncing putstr as such.
23:09:18 <SimonRC> bsmntbombdood: "23:08:07 < SimonRC> ISTR that >>= is calle "bind""
23:09:35 <ihope> oerjan: they have no problem saying "tstr"?
23:10:18 <ihope> Maybe >>= should be pronounced "buh" to abbreviate.
23:10:28 <ehird`> char *hello[50]; is "car-putr hello a50" (putr is pointer said quickly and abruptly, and a is like a cross between a and o ("array"))
23:11:01 <ehird`> car-putr sounds like "carpeter" but with less "e" in "e"
23:11:33 <SimonRC> in unix, the pipe is properly pronounced "goes into"
23:11:46 <oerjan> ihope: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Str%C4%8D_prst_skrz_krk
23:12:31 <SimonRC> that's some kind of SAMPA, not a regex
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23:47:32 <ehird`> spoilers start about.. now
23:51:35 <ehird`> book release time estimated at: real soon now
23:51:46 <ehird`> spoiler release time estimated at: oddly, the same time
23:52:22 <lament> eh? spoilers are already released.
23:54:04 <lament> the leak, plus the ~1000 books released early which have confirmed the leak to be genuine.
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