2007-07-26 - freenode:#esoteric

00:24:56 -!- ehird` has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).

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05:35:36 <Sukoshi`> I DISRUPT SILENCE, RAWR.

05:35:42 <pikhq> EVIL!

05:35:46 <Sukoshi`> I'm the first talker in 5.5 hours.

05:35:52 * Sukoshi` feels special.

05:35:53 <pikhq> Imagine that.

05:36:00 <immibis> EVIL!

05:36:01 <immibis> maybe

05:36:05 <immibis> maybe GOOD!

05:36:08 <immibis> maybe NEITHER!

05:36:17 <pikhq> Maybe we don't need no education?

05:36:20 * immibis wonders why he says crazy annoying things all the time

05:36:31 * immibis ain't not got no none a nothin'

05:36:41 <pikhq> I've been listening to _The Wall_. . .

05:36:46 <pikhq> For the past 3 days.

05:36:54 <pikhq> No, I *absolutely* don't obsess about music. XD

05:38:12 <Sukoshi`> I'm talking because I'm attempting to not do my final paper.

05:38:19 <Sukoshi`> While getting it done at the same time.

05:38:20 <pikhq> Ah.

05:38:31 <pikhq> Well, in *that* case, I've got a theory for you to prove.

05:38:43 -!- calamari has joined.

05:38:52 <pikhq> Hmm. . .

05:39:05 <Sukoshi`> pikhq: http://chokoretto.livejournal.com/1462.html <-- From yesterday.

05:39:09 <pikhq> Prove that the halting problem can be solved on a Turing machine.

05:40:21 <Sukoshi`> I have better things to waste my time on :P

05:40:42 <Sukoshi`> (Like creating cellular automata that generate neural networks! :P)

05:40:52 <immibis> cellular automate that generate neural networks?

05:40:55 <immibis> you crazy?

05:40:58 <immibis> * automata

05:41:08 <pikhq> If she does it, I will forever worship Sukoshi.

05:41:16 <Sukoshi`> Aren't all of us crazy here somewhat, immibis ?

05:41:20 <immibis> true

05:41:23 <immibis> especially me

05:41:37 <immibis> well, thats what i think lots of people in here think

05:41:49 <Sukoshi`> Only EgoBot isn't insane.

05:41:52 * pikhq is crazier than all of you!

05:41:54 <Sukoshi`> Because he's EgoBot.

05:41:58 <pikhq> And all of you are crazier than me!

05:42:02 <immibis> what about toboge?

05:42:25 <pikhq> Toboge is Egobot with a goatee and a propensity for evil.

05:42:33 <immibis> oh yeah

05:42:56 <immibis> what about egobot? he can be programmed to spam, probably

05:43:38 <immibis> !ps

05:43:44 <immibis> except not when hes crashed

05:43:45 <immibis> * it

05:43:47 <immibis> * its

05:44:18 * immibis needs to recompile toboge to apply the latest bugfixes, but netbeans takes forever to load

05:44:34 <Sukoshi`> Isn't Emacs good enough for you? :O

05:44:42 <immibis> also: the main reason toboge has a propensity for evil is because he's controlled by me

05:44:45 <pikhq> Isn't Elisp good enough for you?

05:44:48 <immibis> this is windows

05:44:54 <immibis> wtf is elisp

05:44:55 <pikhq> Oh.

05:44:56 <Sukoshi`> I run Emacs on Windows.

05:45:02 <pikhq> Well, in that case, I pity you.

05:45:22 <pikhq> immibis: Elisp is the Lisp variant that Emacs is written in.

05:45:26 <immibis> netbeans can view the javadoc in source files, without generating html pages first.

05:45:33 <pikhq> (except, of course, for the Elisp interpreter in Emacs)

05:45:47 * immibis is loading netbeans

05:45:56 * immibis could be unresponsive for a while

05:45:57 <pikhq> Sorry, but Java sucks.

05:46:09 <Sukoshi`> Basically Netbeans regenerates the HTML ? :P

05:46:09 <immibis> i wrote about three bots in c++

05:46:12 <immibis> no

05:46:24 <Sukoshi`> Or it does some other internal processing, *same* difference.

05:46:46 <Sukoshi`> Online JavaDoc + W3Emacs works just as well.

05:46:50 <immibis> type in, say, 'java.lang.Class' press Ctrl-Space, the latest javadoc will come up

05:46:58 <immibis> netbeans has already loaded

05:47:02 <Sukoshi`> Oh, like Slime, kind of.

05:47:04 <immibis> strange

05:47:14 <immibis> ctrl-space is also an autocomplete feature.

05:47:17 <Sukoshi`> Yeah.

05:47:19 <pikhq> Tcl + comments works well for me.

05:47:20 <immibis> which is accompanied by the javadoc thing.

05:47:38 <Sukoshi`> Slime has that, plus Slime also fills in the parameter lists for you, and a whole bunch of other stuff, when playing with Common Lisp.

05:48:08 <Sukoshi`> But it works with the *current* Lisp REPL, so if you add package namespaces/commands it will auto-complete for you based on that.

05:48:30 <Sukoshi`> Plus it comes with a built-in inspector/debugger/frame-stepper :)

05:48:33 <Sukoshi`> I just love Lisp :3

05:48:39 <immibis> my first c++ bot was a tangled mess of spaghetti code that i couldn't decipher a bit later except enough to fork the other two - which are also tangled messes of spaghetti code

05:48:55 <immibis> i have written a bot in bash

05:49:03 <immibis> and probably in tcl once i learn it.

05:49:04 <Sukoshi`> My CL bot is very nice. I otta rewrite it in Scheme when I have nothing better to do.

05:49:22 <Sukoshi`> Fully modular. Including on the fly.

05:49:46 <immibis> toboge is recompiled, i am closing netbeans and running it from the commandline, thats how slow netbeans is for me.

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05:50:39 <Sukoshi`> That's what you get for running bad IDEs.

05:50:44 <Sukoshi`> When you could be using Emacs.

05:50:49 <pikhq> That's what you get for running IDEs.

05:51:03 <pikhq> Emacs isn't an IDE, it's an OS for a Lisp machine. :p

05:51:19 <immibis> ?

05:51:20 <toBogE> No such factoid

05:51:35 * immibis should probably trash the 'no such factoid' message

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05:52:08 <Sukoshi`> Emacs is lovely.

05:52:36 <immibis> my brainfuck-commands still don't work

05:52:47 <Sukoshi`> Hah.

05:52:53 <immibis> the idea is that you can write and alter commands in brainfuck, while toboge is running.

05:53:45 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined.

05:53:51 <immibis> because i saved the commands to build\COMMAND.b but loaded them from build\Execer_COMMAND.b

05:53:56 <immibis> which obviously doesn't work

05:56:09 <immibis> !ctcp ACTION tests

05:56:12 <immibis> oops

05:56:19 -!- toBogE has joined.

05:56:25 <immibis> !ctcp ACTION tests

05:56:25 * toBogE tests

05:56:55 <immibis> the command to create a new command in brainfuck is: !loadbfc NAME_NOT_CONTAINING_SPACES BRAINFUCK_PROGRAM

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05:57:34 <Sukoshi`> !bf +.

05:57:38 <Sukoshi`> !ps

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05:57:57 <immibis> egobot crashed

05:57:59 <immibis> !bf +.

05:58:00 <toBogE> <CTCP>

05:58:11 <immibis> toboge supports !bf though

05:58:18 <Sukoshi`> Maybe you should change the prefixes?

05:58:24 <Sukoshi`> !bf ++.

05:58:33 <immibis> !loadbfc say ,[.,]

05:58:40 <pikhq> We've got a *lot* of bots in here on a regular basis. . . XD

05:58:41 <immibis> !say I'm a bot!

05:58:41 <toBogE> I'm a bot!

05:58:56 <immibis> speaking of bots, what happened to bsmnt_bot

05:58:57 <immibis> ?

05:58:58 <toBogE> No such factoid

05:59:15 * immibis really needs to remove that message if he ever gets round to it

05:59:21 <Sukoshi`> !bf +[>+.]

05:59:22 <toBogE> <CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP>

05:59:23 <toBogE> <CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP>

05:59:25 <toBogE> <CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP>

05:59:26 <toBogE> <CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP>

05:59:27 <toBogE> <CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP>

05:59:28 <toBogE> <CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP>

05:59:29 <toBogE> <CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP>

05:59:30 <toBogE> <CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP>

05:59:32 <toBogE> <CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP>

05:59:34 <toBogE> <CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP>

05:59:36 <toBogE> <CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP>

05:59:38 <Sukoshi`> !bf +[>++.]

05:59:38 <toBogE> <CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP>

05:59:40 <immibis> what's you do that for

05:59:40 <toBogE> <CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP>

05:59:42 <toBogE> <CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP>

05:59:44 <toBogE> <CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP>

05:59:46 <toBogE> <CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP>

05:59:48 <toBogE> <CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP>

05:59:49 <immibis> you're printing an infinite number of ascii 1's

05:59:50 <toBogE> <CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP>

05:59:52 <toBogE> <CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP>

05:59:54 -!- toBogE has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).

05:59:55 <Sukoshi`> It's like crashing EgoBot all over again!

05:59:58 <immibis> yep

06:00:03 <pikhq> What's the size of your cells?

06:00:03 <immibis> except much much much more annoying

06:00:08 <Sukoshi`> pikhq: :)

06:00:17 <Sukoshi`> I'm laughing so hard I drooled on my homework :P

06:00:18 -!- toBogE has joined.

06:00:25 <pikhq> :)

06:00:26 <Sukoshi`> !bf +[>++.]

06:00:31 <Sukoshi`> I wanna see him spam himself out.

06:00:35 * immibis does it again

06:00:39 -!- toBogE has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).

06:00:45 <pikhq> !bf -[<-.]

06:00:50 <Sukoshi`> ;)

06:00:53 <immibis> !bf is non-wrapping

06:01:01 <immibis> use !bf8 for 8-bit wrapping brainfuck

06:01:01 <pikhq> Oh, well then. . .

06:01:06 -!- cmeme has quit ("Client terminated by server").

06:01:08 -!- toBogE has joined.

06:01:13 <toBogE> STOP THAT!

06:01:17 <Sukoshi`> !bf -[<-.]

06:01:17 <toBogE> ��

06:01:17 -!- cmeme has joined.

06:01:18 <pikhq> !bf +[.+]

06:01:18 <toBogE> ��

06:01:19 <toBogE> ��

06:01:20 <toBogE> ��

06:01:21 <toBogE> ��

06:01:22 <toBogE> ��

06:01:23 <toBogE> ��

06:01:25 <toBogE> ��

06:01:27 <toBogE> ��

06:01:29 <toBogE> ��

06:01:31 <toBogE> ��

06:01:33 <toBogE> ��

06:01:35 <toBogE> ��

06:01:37 -!- toBogE has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).

06:01:44 <pikhq> :D

06:01:50 * immibis is going to keep toboge off this channel

06:01:51 <Sukoshi`> I love this :D

06:01:58 <immibis> or get toboge to ignore sukoshi

06:02:06 <Sukoshi`> Or you can be like GregorR and fix the bugs :P

06:02:21 -!- toBogE has joined.

06:02:25 <pikhq> !bf +[.+]

06:02:25 <toBogE> <CTCP>

06:02:26 <toBogE>

06:02:28 <toBogE> >?@ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ[\]^_`abcdefghijklmnop

06:02:29 <toBogE> qrstuvwxyz{|}~��

06:02:29 <toBogE> ��

06:02:32 <toBogE> ��

06:02:32 <toBogE>

06:02:33 <toBogE> >?@ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ[\]^_`abcdefghijklmnop

06:02:33 <Sukoshi`> Yes!

06:02:33 <immibis> !raw ignore pikhq

06:02:34 <toBogE> qrstuvwxyz{|}~��

06:02:36 <toBogE> ��

06:02:38 <toBogE> ��

06:02:42 <toBogE>

06:02:44 <toBogE> >?@ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ[\]^_`abcdefghijklmnop

06:02:46 <immibis> you want the wrapping version.

06:02:46 <toBogE> qrstuvwxyz{|}~��

06:02:48 -!- toBogE has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).

06:02:56 <pikhq> No, I want every unicode char to be output.

06:02:56 * immibis imposes a time limit on brainfuck programs

06:03:04 <immibis> only the lower 8 bits

06:03:06 <pikhq> Bad immibis.

06:03:08 <immibis> are output

06:03:13 <pikhq> Doubly-bad.

06:03:29 * immibis keepas toboge off irc for a while

06:03:31 <immibis> * keeps

06:03:55 <Sukoshi`> :(

06:04:41 <Sukoshi`> I had a perfect one ready too.

06:05:30 <immibis> what?

06:05:46 <immibis> what was it?

06:06:36 <Sukoshi`> !bf +>+<[>[>+<-]>.]

06:06:41 <Sukoshi`> Can I try it once? Pweez?

06:07:49 <Sukoshi`> Hey! We should have an in-channel BF-competition!

06:07:54 <immibis> yes

06:07:57 <immibis> but egobots crashed

06:08:02 <Sukoshi`> Remember that one BF variant GregorR made that you can run at the same time and crash each other?

06:08:09 <Sukoshi`> Then reconnect toBogE ;)

06:08:09 <immibis> fukyorbrane?

06:08:14 <Sukoshi`> Yeah.

06:08:15 <immibis> no

06:08:19 <immibis> toboge is single-threaded

06:08:20 <Sukoshi`> ;P

06:08:28 <Sukoshi`> Why?

06:08:35 <immibis> well, single-threaded plus however many threads irclib creates

06:08:37 <immibis> good question

06:08:44 * immibis loads netbeans for the third time today

06:09:33 * immibis might even be able to implement FukYorBrane

06:09:39 * immibis probably won't though

06:09:53 <Sukoshi`> Then go fukyorbrane :|

06:10:02 <bsmntbombdood> i love _The Wall_

06:10:51 <immibis> hmm...the original fukyoubrane spec has been deleted

06:11:02 <immibis> ihope it doesn't get deleted from the esoteric file archive too

06:12:01 <Sukoshi`> ihope thinks it will.

06:12:30 <immibis> will get deleted?

06:12:32 <immibis> uh oh

06:12:35 <immibis> how can i mirror it?

06:12:45 <Sukoshi`> No. I'm joking :P

06:12:52 <Sukoshi`> Because you said ihope instead of I hope.

06:12:56 <immibis> i know

06:12:59 <immibis> pun intended

06:12:59 <Sukoshi`> I don't think anyone will delete any of that stuff.

06:13:05 <immibis> although ihope has nothing to do with it

06:14:31 <bsmntbombdood> i want a TRNG, so i'm going to hire 25 chinese kids to roll dice in my basement

06:15:06 <immibis> trng?

06:15:12 <immibis> what's a trng?

06:18:36 <GregorR> True Random Number Generator

06:20:10 <immibis> ok.

06:20:13 <immibis> lol

06:21:20 -!- calamari has quit ("Leaving").

06:21:23 <immibis> attach your computer to a motor of some sort which shakes 25 dice about in a big cup and attach a webcam, take a picture after shaking the dice, and compute a quick checksum of the pixels in the picture.

06:21:29 <pikhq> bsmntbombdood: Wouldn't it be better to just rely upon, say, a function of the average IQ in Congress?

06:21:30 <immibis> that random enough?

06:21:44 <pikhq> After all, that seems to fluctuate as the wind blows. . .

06:21:47 <immibis> the numbers might be too high or possibly too low.

06:21:56 <bsmntbombdood> immibis: but then i wouldn't have 25 chinese kids in my basement

06:22:00 <immibis> exactly

06:22:02 <immibis> thats the point

06:22:09 <immibis> why do you want 25 chinese kids nyway?

06:22:13 <bsmntbombdood> what else could i use as my sex slaves then?

06:22:18 <immibis> !

06:22:19 <pikhq> bsmntbombdood: Hire 25 chinese kids as sex slaves.

06:22:30 <pikhq> Skip the middleman. Err. . . Purpose.

06:22:36 * immibis just found a new way to spell anyway - neway

06:27:03 * immibis needs a way to stop a java thread without using Thread.stop (it's deprecated) and without interrupting it (the interrupt would go unnoticed) and without setting a varible to indicate "it's time to stop now" (it would go unnoticed)

06:27:36 <immibis> actually i might as well use thread.stop - how else

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06:46:06 <GregorR-L> RodgerTheGreat: Yeah, pretty much everybody is afraid of the avatar :P

06:46:13 <GregorR-L> RodgerTheGreat: Therefore, I'm keeping it.

06:47:25 <pikhq> What avatar?

06:49:43 -!- immibis has quit (Remote closed the connection).

06:49:54 -!- immibis has joined.

06:50:13 <immibis> !ps

06:50:17 <immibis> gregorr-l: egobot crashed

06:50:35 <GregorR-L> *shrugs*

06:50:37 <GregorR-L> Don't care.

06:50:48 -!- EgoBot has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).

06:51:11 -!- EgoBot has joined.

06:52:10 <Sukoshi`> !bf +.

06:52:14 <EgoBot> <CTCP>

06:52:30 <Sukoshi`> !bf +.+++.

06:52:32 <EgoBot> <CTCP>

06:53:21 <Sukoshi`> !bf ++++[>+++<-]+[>++<-][.-]

06:53:38 <pikhq> Nice.

06:54:02 <Sukoshi`> So uh. Where's the output?

06:54:05 <immibis> that is meant to...output a \1, then a 15, then a zero?

06:54:10 <immibis> !ps

06:54:12 <EgoBot> 1 immibis: ps

06:54:17 <Sukoshi`> ....

06:54:20 <immibis> there is no output

06:54:33 <immibis> !bf ++++[>+++<-]>+[>++<-]>[.-]

06:54:36 <EgoBot>

06:54:45 <Sukoshi`> !bf ++++[>+++<-]>+<[>++<-]>[.-]

06:54:47 <Sukoshi`> Err, yeah.

06:54:48 -!- cmeme has quit ("Client terminated by server").

06:54:48 <EgoBot>

06:54:58 -!- cmeme has joined.

06:55:28 <Sukoshi`> !bf ++++[>+++<-]>+[>++<-]>[.-]

06:55:30 <EgoBot>

06:55:43 <immibis> where's ololobot?

07:01:07 <bsmntbombdood> !bf ++++[>++++<-][>++++++++++++++++<-]-[.-]

07:01:10 <EgoBot> ��~}|{zyxwvutsrqponmlkjihgfedcba`_^]\[ZYXWVUTSRQPONMLKJIHGFEDCBA@?>=<;:9876543210/.-,+*)('&%$#"!

07:01:25 <bsmntbombdood> wtf bug

07:02:16 <bsmntbombdood> !ps

07:02:18 <EgoBot> 1 bsmntbombdood: ps

07:02:29 <bsmntbombdood> !ps a

07:02:32 <EgoBot> 1 bsmntbombdood: ps

07:04:34 <immibis> bsmntbombdood: what's a bug?

07:05:02 <immibis> the program displays every character from 0 to 255 in reverse order.

07:05:08 <bsmntbombdood> EgoBot sent me ~50 lines in pm "\x06\x05\x04\x01"

07:05:10 <bsmntbombdood> exactly

07:07:35 <immibis> that happens for some reason

07:07:39 <immibis> i tried it

07:28:33 <GregorR-L> ...

07:28:36 <GregorR-L> What's the bug?

07:29:43 <immibis> gregorr-l: type !bf ++++[>++++<-][>++++++++++++++++<-]-[.-]

07:30:02 <immibis> and you will get lots of private messages

07:30:04 <immibis> isn't that a bug?

07:30:09 <GregorR-L> ... no.

07:30:12 <immibis> ?

07:30:14 <immibis> what is it then

07:30:15 <GregorR-L> EgoBot won't spam the channel.

07:30:18 <immibis> ok

07:30:20 <pikhq> That's useless. . . Same as "+++[>++++<-]-[.-]"

07:30:20 <GregorR-L> So everything after the newline goes to you.

07:30:38 <immibis> ok

07:30:40 <GregorR-L> Plus, it's 16-bit by default, FYI

07:31:04 <immibis> so thats why you always get a private message when you print the ascii table

07:31:15 <immibis> !bf +++[>++++<-]-[.-]

07:31:18 <EgoBot> ��~}|{zyxwvutsrqponmlkjihgfedcba`_^]\[ZYXWVUTSRQPONMLKJIHGFEDCBA@?>=<;:9876543210/.-,+*)('&%$#"!

07:31:34 <immibis> pikhq: thats also useless

07:31:39 <immibis> same as "-[.-]"

07:31:59 <immibis> why does it send you the part after the newline _multiple times_?

07:32:06 <pikhq> immibis: Not quite.

07:32:16 <immibis> yes it is

07:32:22 <immibis> well almost the same

07:32:29 <pikhq> "-[.-]" starts the loop at -1, rather than 11.

07:32:34 <immibis> -[.-] doesn't set the next cell to 12

07:32:38 <immibis> so does what you said

07:32:42 <immibis> oops

07:33:14 <immibis> what you said does the following: a) sets the second cell to 12 b) prints every character going backwards from -1

07:33:25 <immibis> the missing > strikes again

07:33:33 <immibis> !bf +++[>++++<-]>-[.-]

07:33:41 <immibis> !p

07:33:42 <immibis> !ps

07:33:44 <EgoBot> Huh?

07:33:46 <EgoBot> 1 immibis: p

07:33:48 <EgoBot> 2 immibis: ps

07:36:09 <immibis> the new multi-threaded toboge is coming online for testing

07:36:18 <immibis> who votes it should stay off this channel until i've tested it

07:36:23 <immibis> (probably everyone)

07:43:34 <immibis> well it would be if i hadn't just found some stuff that needed fixing

07:56:34 -!- GregorR-L has quit ("Leaving").

07:58:05 * immibis announces.......multi-threaded toboge!

07:58:17 <immibis> !ps for a list of processes, !kill to kill one

07:58:20 <EgoBot> 1 immibis: ps

07:58:30 <immibis> also: !setprefix to change the prefix!

07:58:42 <immibis> but only i know how to use it, though.

07:59:26 <immibis> also !setprefix doesn't work yet

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08:00:50 <Sukoshi`> !bf >+++++[>++<-][+.>.<]

08:01:11 <immibis> the missing > strikes yet again

08:01:12 <Sukoshi`> Wait. Does it need CR/LF?

08:01:20 <immibis> !bf >+++++[>++<-]<[+.>.<]

08:01:31 <immibis> maybe not

08:01:41 -!- toBogE has joined.

08:01:42 <toBogE> I am the new, multi-threaded toboge!

08:01:51 <Sukoshi`> !bf ++++[>+++<-]>+[>++<-]>[.-]

08:01:51 <toBogE>

08:01:52 <toBogE> you can't crash me with infinite brainfuck loops!

08:01:52 <toBogE> <CTCP>

08:01:54 <EgoBot>

08:02:02 <immibis> !bf +[]

08:02:04 <immibis> !irp test

08:02:04 <toBogE> test

08:02:05 <immibis> !ps

08:02:05 <toBogE> 2 Process on #esoteric: ps (Thread-ID 5)

08:02:06 <EgoBot> Huh?

08:02:06 <toBogE> 1 Process on #esoteric: bf +[] (Thread-ID 3)

08:02:08 <EgoBot> 1 immibis: bf

08:02:10 <EgoBot> 2 immibis: irp

08:02:12 <EgoBot> 3 immibis: ps

08:02:23 <immibis> !setprefix T!

08:02:24 <EgoBot> Huh?

08:02:26 <immibis> !setprefix CT!

08:02:28 <EgoBot> Huh?

08:02:32 <immibis> T!ps

08:02:32 <toBogE> 2 Process on #esoteric: ps (Thread-ID 8)

08:02:33 <toBogE> 1 Process on #esoteric: bf +[] (Thread-ID 3)

08:02:41 <immibis> !setprefix FT?

08:02:44 <EgoBot> Huh?

08:02:50 <immibis> ok, now T! is the command prefix

08:02:54 <immibis> and T? is the factoid prefix

08:02:57 <immibis> T?x

08:03:03 <immibis> T?x

08:03:06 <immibis> T!ps

08:03:07 <toBogE> 2 Process on #esoteric: ps (Thread-ID 9)

08:03:08 <toBogE> 1 Process on #esoteric: bf +[] (Thread-ID 3)

08:03:18 <immibis> strange, i wonder why factoids aren't working

08:03:20 <Sukoshi`> !bf >+++++[>++<-][+.>.<]

08:03:21 <immibis> T?testtse

08:03:36 <Sukoshi`> !bf >+++++[>++<-][+.>.<]

08:03:47 <immibis> !ps

08:03:50 <EgoBot> 1 immibis: bf

08:03:52 <EgoBot> 2 immibis: ps

08:03:54 <immibis> !kill 1

08:03:56 <EgoBot> Process 1 killed.

08:03:57 <Sukoshi`> !bf >+++++[>++<-][+.>.<]

08:04:09 <Sukoshi`> !bf [,.]

08:04:10 <immibis> you're not outputting anything

08:04:13 <immibis> !ps

08:04:16 <EgoBot> 1 immibis: ps

08:04:20 <Sukoshi`> I am outputting something.

08:04:24 <immibis> no you're not

08:04:29 <immibis> "...][..."

08:04:51 <Sukoshi`> I'm storing \n in the next cell over, then begin a increasing increment and output cycle.

08:04:57 <immibis> since loops only end when the current cell is zero, and only start when the current cell is nonzero, ][ always skips the second loop

08:05:15 <Sukoshi`> !bf >+++++[>++<-]+[+.>.<]

08:05:18 <immibis> >+++++[>++<-]+[.>.<+]

08:05:23 <immibis> !bf >+++++[>++<-]+[.>.<+]

08:05:46 <Sukoshi`> Yay. Continuous spamming \o/

08:05:56 <immibis> wtf. No spamming \?/

08:05:59 <immibis> !ps

08:06:01 <EgoBot> 1 immibis: ps

08:06:18 <immibis> !bf >+++++[>++<-]+[+.>.<]

08:06:32 <immibis> there it goes

08:06:53 <immibis> wonder why you need the + before the .>.<?

08:07:31 -!- EgoBot has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).

08:07:37 <immibis> thank you

08:12:04 -!- toBogE has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).

08:12:58 <bsmntbombdood> cd ~/music; ls

08:13:07 <bsmntbombdood> oops

08:19:56 <immibis> toboge keeps getting ghosted

08:20:02 <immibis> i will try running from the commandline

08:23:52 -!- toBogE has joined.

08:23:56 <toBogE> drat this connection

08:23:58 <immibis> !ps

08:24:01 <toBogE> 1 Process on #esoteric: ps (Thread-ID 2)

08:26:39 <toBogE> test

08:27:12 <immibis> !bf +[]

08:27:13 <immibis> !bf +[]

08:27:38 <calamari> !bf +[>+]

08:27:38 <toBogE> Data pointer out of bounds

08:27:59 <calamari> !bf <

08:28:15 <calamari> !bf +[<+]

08:28:15 <toBogE> Data pointer out of bounds

08:28:59 <calamari> !bf +[+.]

08:28:59 <toBogE>

08:29:00 <toBogE>

08:29:01 <toBogE> >?@ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ[\]^_`abcdefghijklmnop

08:29:02 <toBogE> qrstuvwxyz{|}~��

08:29:05 <toBogE> ��

08:29:06 <toBogE>

08:29:07 <toBogE> >?@ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ[\]^_`abcdefghijklmnop

08:29:08 <toBogE> qrstuvwxyz{|}~��

08:29:11 <toBogE> ��

08:29:11 <immibis> !ps

08:29:12 <toBogE> ��

08:29:16 <toBogE> 2 Process on #esoteric: ps (Thread-ID 16)

08:29:17 <immibis> !kill 1

08:29:18 <toBogE>

08:29:20 <toBogE> 1 Process on #esoteric: bf +[+.] (Thread-ID 15)

08:29:22 <toBogE> >?@ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ[\]^_`abcdefghijklmnop

08:29:24 <toBogE> qrstuvwxyz{|}~��

08:29:26 <toBogE> ��

08:29:28 <toBogE> ��

08:29:28 <calamari> :P

08:29:36 <immibis> it handles 16 bits internally

08:29:45 <immibis> but it is and-ed with 255 when printing

08:29:51 <calamari> makes sense

08:29:54 <immibis> * 32 bits

08:29:56 <immibis> not 16

08:30:04 <immibis> so if you want 8-bit wraparound, use !bf8

08:30:30 <calamari> is this a modified egobot? haven't really been following it

08:31:04 <immibis> its an entirely different bot

08:31:32 <immibis> written in java

08:31:33 <immibis> ?toboge

08:31:34 <toBogE> toboge->toBogE

08:31:34 <toBogE> toBogE is a bot which can save and recall factoids, respond to what has been said, and execute code in a few esoteric programming languages. In short, toBogE is me!

08:31:45 <immibis> !hel

08:31:47 <immibis> !help

08:31:47 <toBogE> All known commands: !bf !bf8 !binascii !chanlist !delregex

08:31:49 <toBogE> !factoid !hello !help !irp !loadbfc !magritte !minimum

08:31:51 <toBogE> !nil !persist !ps !raw !regex !rot13 !setprefix !userlist

08:32:10 <immibis> !kill is not shown, its handled differently to avoid the maximum-processes limit

08:34:39 <immibis> !ctcp ACTION pings

08:34:39 * toBogE pings

08:35:31 <immibis> btw, don't say !ctcp VERSION

08:35:35 <immibis> you'll annoy a lot of people

08:41:32 <Sukoshi`> !ctcp VERSIONN

08:42:07 <immibis> only one N

08:45:09 <immibis> !ctcp VERSION

08:45:22 <immibis> especially me, i get all the replies forwarded to me

08:47:05 <immibis> why am i the only person here on windows?

08:55:33 <immibis> do not type /version #esoteric

09:14:31 <immibis> !ps

09:14:31 <toBogE> 1 Process on #esoteric: ps (Thread-ID 28)

09:14:54 <immibis> hmm

09:14:57 <immibis> what happened to egobot

09:21:31 <immibis> in fukyoubrane, can you uncommit your own program?

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09:31:21 <immibis> because i just wrote a very long fyb program (threads with asterisks at the end that do nothing and lots of redundancy and lots of bomb-defusing threads)

09:31:26 <immibis> never mind, i have to go.

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09:50:43 <Sukoshi`> Hm. Are there any interesting books out there on Cellular Automata?

09:53:31 <bsmntbombdood> ankos?

09:56:24 <Sukoshi`> No, not ANKOS :P

09:56:30 <Sukoshi`> Something with math in it.

10:07:00 <Sukoshi`> pikhq: http://www.ce.unipr.it/pardis/CNN/cnn.html <-- Beat me to it.

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11:54:04 <test_> haha langton's ants are clever, i put a few in a grid and they've set up seperate colonies and also created reusable walkways between them, so they work on a colony then travel to another, repeat

11:54:22 <test_> there's even crossroads whose directions change when an ant goes over them and everything

11:55:18 <test_> they're trying to join two colonies together now...

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14:07:46 <oklofok> RodgerTheGreat: ChanServ gives a notice about the map when you join

14:07:57 <oklofok> -ChanServ- [#esoteric] Welcome to the esoteric programming channel! Check out the esoteric programmers map: http://www.frappr.com/esolang

14:08:04 <RodgerTheGreat> oh. cool

14:08:10 <oklofok> also, i can't join this channel

14:08:11 <oklofok> �� can't join #esoteric (auth'ed only (+r))!

14:08:39 <RodgerTheGreat> haha- cakeprophet's expression is priceless

14:09:08 <oklofok> hehe

14:10:04 <oklofok> tokigun_ is korean?

14:11:44 <RodgerTheGreat> argh- my photo upload progress is stuck at 90%!

14:12:51 <RodgerTheGreat> ok, w00t. I have added myself

14:14:48 <RodgerTheGreat> I'm that little speck on Michigan's upper peninsula

14:15:22 <oklofok> found

14:15:31 <oklofok> you have a lazy eye or a bad pic?

14:15:46 <RodgerTheGreat> I don't have a lazy eye

14:16:03 <oklofok> your other spec looked kinda whitish

14:16:03 <RodgerTheGreat> geez, I thought that was a decent enough photo. :/

14:16:04 <oklofok> :P

14:16:08 <oklofok> sorry

14:16:09 <oklofok> :D

14:16:23 <RodgerTheGreat> this is why I avoid putting photos of myself on the internet

14:16:27 <oklofok> ah

14:16:42 <oklofok> i looked at the big picture, it's clearly the window

14:17:06 <RodgerTheGreat> ah, yes. Thumbnails sometimes suck

14:18:03 <oklofok> i'm pretty sure no one >5 is given glasses with one glass whitened

14:18:10 <oklofok> they get those pirate things

14:18:13 <oklofok> yarr!

14:18:27 <oklofok> (not sure what the right term is)

14:19:08 <oklofok> RodgerTheGreat: i think it's better if i comment seeing your picture by putting it down than by saying you look sexy in it

14:19:48 <RodgerTheGreat> I can imagine that's a workable strategy

14:19:57 <oklofok> not all guys enjoy that

14:20:04 <oklofok> i mean, the latter one

14:21:33 <RodgerTheGreat> heh

14:22:04 <oklofok> well, can't say girls like it either, if used extensively

14:22:55 <RodgerTheGreat> I think that one mainly applies to girls on the internet, where people are known for being extremely creepy

14:23:20 <RodgerTheGreat> obviously excluding "social networking" sites, which baffles me

14:25:03 <oklofok> people do not like it irl either

14:25:29 <RodgerTheGreat> I think that's heavily dependent on context

14:26:03 <RodgerTheGreat> if I walked up to a random girl and said "Hot damn, you is sexy", I'd probably get kicked in the balls

14:26:17 <oklofok> i do that often, most people like it

14:26:55 <oklofok> it's just if you are with a person for a time long enough for them to know your name, but not long enough to actually know who you are, stuff like that make you seem very creepy.

14:27:27 <RodgerTheGreat> hm. interesting.

14:28:05 <RodgerTheGreat> so what you're saying is that a compliment from someone with which you have mild familiarity is *more* disarming//creepy than a compliment from a total stranger?

14:28:15 <RodgerTheGreat> there must be some psychological bias at work here.

14:28:53 <oklofok> well, most people will find a random comment on the street a fun surprise as long as it doesn't seem aggressive

14:29:04 <oklofok> and of course, if they aren't told it all the time

14:29:22 <oklofok> but you don't want to be near someone who's constantly oggling at you

14:30:05 * oklofok doesn't oggle constantly, but somewhat :)

14:30:13 <RodgerTheGreat> it's possible that this also depends on the setting

14:30:24 <RodgerTheGreat> girls up here at MTU tend to be rare and defensive

14:31:24 <oklofok> well, they are constantly surrounded by horny geeks

14:31:33 <oklofok> :)

14:31:43 <oklofok> that would be the exception i gave

14:31:50 <RodgerTheGreat> although it remains to be seen if this is primarily due to low population percentage or the fact that virtually every non-crazy one is already in a relationship (these are linked factors)

14:33:03 <RodgerTheGreat> on an unrelated note, this picture is awesome: http://i.somethingawful.com/u/acetone/07_26_07/07_26_07_update2.jpg

14:34:38 <oklofok> :P

14:59:04 <oklofok> i liked bsmntbombdood's pic

14:59:09 <oklofok> i mean, from earlier

15:00:53 <RodgerTheGreat> he isn't on the frappr, is he?

15:02:15 <oklofok> hmm, i think not

15:02:22 <oklofok> there are very little pics there

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15:02:53 <oklofok> that is actually the only picture one can obtain from me, unless my relative

15:03:30 <oklofok> (also, i've been on the paper a few times, but luckily no one knows my irl name)

15:03:41 <oklofok> (well, you can easily know my first name)

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15:34:40 <fizzie> "To view this Frappr map, please upgrade to Flash Player 8 or higher!" Aw.

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22:48:45 <bsmntbombdood> oklofok: what's my pic

22:50:46 <SimonRC> bsmntbombdood: huh? pic?

22:50:57 <bsmntbombdood> <oklofok> i liked bsmntbombdood's pic

22:55:06 <pikhq> http://pikhq.nonlogic.org/an_open_letter_to_microsoft.txt Thoughts? Things I could improve?

22:55:46 <bsmntbombdood> yes, wrap the lines

22:56:14 -!- oerjan has joined.

22:56:29 <pikhq> Know of a good program to do that for me?

22:56:37 <SimonRC> fmt

22:56:45 <SimonRC> /usr/bin/fmt

22:56:54 <SimonRC> should be standard

22:57:03 <SimonRC> great for invoking from vi

22:57:10 <bsmntbombdood> emacs

22:57:53 <SimonRC> pikhq: You need lots of references. It should look like a Wikipedia article on crack.

22:57:57 <SimonRC> ok, maybe not

22:58:44 <oerjan> mind you, within vim 1GgqG works just as well.

22:58:51 <bsmntbombdood> vim can do it automatically too

22:59:02 <bsmntbombdood> beat me to it

22:59:24 <pikhq> Reformatted.

22:59:59 <bsmntbombdood> aah, pretty

23:01:03 <oklofok> bsmntbombdood: the one with nothing

23:01:50 <bsmntbombdood> what good will ms releasing its code do?

23:02:15 <pikhq> Well, if they're going to claim to support open source, they ought to actually do so.

23:03:19 <bsmntbombdood> ms saying they are going to support foss is like ms saying they are going to support apple

23:04:10 * pikhq would at least like to see something like that start making the rounds. . .

23:06:34 <SimonRC> bsmntbombdood: Office runs on OSX.

23:07:06 <SimonRC> releasig code will help us decrypt fomats

23:07:30 <SimonRC> there will also be loads of 0-day exploits

23:08:02 <oerjan> that does sound like a problem

23:09:25 <oerjan> heck, it sounds like such a big problem that Microsoft might get sued if they did it

23:11:41 <oerjan> (although they probably have somewhere in their user agreement that prohibits you from doing so)

23:15:20 <sekhmet> I'm sure MS will tremble with fear at that letter

23:16:55 <pikhq> Sarcastic much?

23:16:59 <test_> yes, because ms have a track record of listening to their customers

23:17:01 <test_> and obeying their needs

23:17:07 <test_> very friendly company

23:30:10 <GregorR> When has MS EVER claimed to support F/OSS?

23:31:04 <GregorR> I'm fine with MS' policy towards F/OSS, they are a competitor, pure and simple.

23:31:17 <GregorR> It's Apple's policy that's godawful.

23:31:49 <GregorR> Apple's policy is "Act like we support F/OSS, consume lots of F/OSS, produce only the minimum that we have to to conform to the licenses, make proprietary software."

23:31:57 <GregorR> They're the ones who are actively hurting the F/OSS community.

23:33:24 <GregorR> Apple makes me love GPL for libs.

23:33:36 <pikhq> They claimed to support FOSS. . . Today.

23:33:46 <GregorR> Ohreally? :P

23:33:48 <GregorR> News I haven't heard.

23:34:24 <GregorR> URL?

23:34:56 <pikhq> http://www.microsoft.com/opensource/default.mspx

23:35:38 <GregorR> That URL makes me want to vomit.

23:35:49 * test_ wonders which is better: implement coroutines with threads, or implement threads with coroutines

23:35:52 <test_> the latter sounds nicer.

23:36:11 <test_> GregorR, Apple contribute more than you might think

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23:37:11 <GregorR> test_: I can be convinced only with examples.

23:39:24 <SimonRC> test_: wrong

23:39:27 <SimonRC> thecorrect answer is:

23:39:43 <SimonRC> implement both coroutines and threads using generalised continuations

23:39:56 <test_> SimonRC, threads with continuations ... I never thought of that

23:40:13 <SimonRC> co-operative, naturally

23:40:33 <bsmntbombdood> how can you thread with continuations?

23:40:40 <SimonRC> easy

23:40:53 <SimonRC> the OS starts a thread using call/cc

23:41:15 <test_> co-operative threading is yucky

23:41:18 <test_> i am not fond of Yield()

23:41:33 <SimonRC> the thread stores the continuation in aglobal variable, and whenever it needs to yield, it does call/cc on the continuation

23:41:36 <test_> i think a good tree would be:

23:41:38 <test_> coroutines

23:41:41 <test_> / \

23:41:41 <SimonRC> you can imagine the rest from there

23:41:45 <test_> threads continuations

23:41:48 <SimonRC> no

23:41:57 <SimonRC> continuations are the most general

23:42:05 <test_> but annoying to use for threads.

23:42:15 <test_> now if you show me how to thread non-cooperatively with continuations i'll be impressed.

23:42:29 <SimonRC> continuations cannot be defined in terms of the other two

23:42:54 <test_> yes they can

23:43:00 <SimonRC> no they can't

23:43:08 <test_> continuations can be defined with coroutines..

23:43:19 <SimonRC> test_: ok, every primitive routine checks a counter and yields if it has been long enough.

23:43:25 <SimonRC> test_: no they can't

23:43:30 <test_> SimonRC, that's just a big hack

23:43:35 <test_> SimonRC, and errr... yes they can

23:43:38 <SimonRC> test_: no they can't

23:43:43 <SimonRC> this is going no-where

23:43:51 <test_> SimonRC, yes they can? :)

23:43:51 <bsmntbombdood> i don't understand how that's threading

23:43:59 <SimonRC> it's co-operattive

23:44:26 <test_> co-operative threading is not worth calling threading imo

23:44:36 <SimonRC> You can only call a co-routine once from any one of its states. once called, the state gets mutated into another state

23:44:38 <test_> its so simple and a real pain to use

23:44:51 <SimonRC> continuations can be called as many times as you like

23:45:25 <test_> <SimonRC> continuations can be called as many times as you like <-- no they can't.

23:45:47 <SimonRC> yes they can

23:46:02 <test_> show me working code that does that

23:46:07 <SimonRC> sgh

23:46:11 * SimonRC fiddles

23:46:18 <SimonRC> oh ICBA

23:46:22 <GregorR> I don't think that's part of the general definition of continuations, though some may support that.

23:47:26 <test_> exactly

23:47:32 <test_> all continuation impls i know expire after one call

23:47:37 <test_> thus, coroutines implement them just fine

23:47:45 <test_> and threading fits nicely into coroutines too

23:47:52 <oerjan> not in Scheme

23:47:53 <test_> therefore, coroutines are king and should be the root!

23:47:59 <test_> oerjan, since when?

23:49:55 <SimonRC> How about the ubiquitous non-determinism macros example in Scheme?

23:50:08 <SimonRC> they require multi-use continuations

23:50:20 <bsmntbombdood> test_: scheme

23:50:52 <test_> bsmntbombdood, since when has scheme not expired them

23:50:56 <lament> since forever

23:51:01 <test_> odd

23:51:21 <oerjan> they are garbage collected when no longer referenced, of course

23:51:36 <test_> anyway, that isn't an earth shattering problem is it? you can still implement continuations easily with coroutines...

23:51:49 <lament> you can?

23:51:55 <SimonRC> OTOH, the more you can pin down about the usage of continuations, the better you can optimise them

23:52:04 <SimonRC> linearity is very handy to know

23:52:21 <oerjan> well, you can implement continuations by doing everything in continuation passing style

23:52:32 <SimonRC> oerjan: ah, well...

23:52:41 <SimonRC> oerjan: depends on your language

23:52:51 <oerjan> you need closures, of course

23:52:54 <SimonRC> that fails for escape continuations

23:53:09 <oerjan> huh?

23:53:57 <SimonRC> ok

23:53:59 <test_> hmm, is there a non-hacky way to define threading in CPS?

23:54:15 <test_> then you'd have something that's basically a coroutine, but different

23:54:24 <SimonRC> what value do you set foo to so that (print (begin (foo) 1)) never prints the 1?

23:54:41 <SimonRC> foo has to be an escape continuation

23:54:49 <SimonRC> so escape continuation must be primitive

23:55:09 <SimonRC> (i.e. it is a continuation which never returns)

23:55:21 <oerjan> no continuation ever returns

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23:55:38 <oerjan> CPS means never returning

23:55:49 <oerjan> always passing on

23:55:55 <bsmntbombdood> (call/cc (lambda (cont) (let ((foo (lambda () (cont #f)))) (print (begin (foo) 1)))))

23:56:53 <test_> but i think coroutines (maybe enhanced) is the best thing to use as a base for continuations+threads

23:57:37 <SimonRC> oerjan: ah, of course, "(print (begin (foo) 1))" isn;t in CPS

23:57:48 <oerjan> indeed

23:57:50 <SimonRC> CPS requires that all the continuation calls be tail-calls

23:58:29 <SimonRC> test_: argh!

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23:58:46 <SimonRC> test_: we just showed you that you can;t make continuations out of co-routines.

23:58:56 <test_> you >can< though

23:59:07 <test_> you haven't actually shown me proof that you can't

23:59:15 <SimonRC> can you do this? http://gd.tuwien.ac.at/languages/scheme/tutorial-dsitaram/t-y-scheme-Z-H-15.html

23:59:35 <SimonRC> a co-routine cannot be "rewound"

23:59:42 <SimonRC> it irreversibly mutates itself