00:00:16 * ihope ponders market intelligence 00:00:32 Tiny robots buying and selling solutions to problems. 00:00:47 And forming corporations and voting... 00:01:07 And banking and loaning and investing! 00:03:21 heh, sounds like fun 00:03:57 But how smart would each robot have to be? 00:04:02 genetic algorithms with monetary weighting 00:04:12 not that that's what you were talking about, prolly 00:04:21 "Normal" robots would have to be smart enough to find a job involving what they can do. 00:04:34 "Exceptional" robots would have to be smart enough to collectively run everything. 00:05:22 gotta sleep :\ 00:05:30 * oklofok is and exceptional robot 00:05:31 -> 00:05:34 :-) 00:06:03 Robots could think, buy, sell, vote, bank, loan, invest, advance, incorporate! 00:06:25 * oerjan recalls some robots from the A Miracle of Science webcomic 00:06:34 Though investing is really a smarter version of buying, selling, banking, loaning, incorporating and advancing. 00:06:45 And advancing is sort of a part of incorporating. 00:06:50 they were not smart individually, they needed to be networked. 00:06:59 And banking is really more like lending. 00:07:03 The "Marlowes", i think 00:07:18 Think, buy, sell, borrow, lend, vote, incorporate. 00:07:57 Theoretically, if we have enough random bots, the smart ones will become rich and run everything. 00:08:35 The poorest robots can be eliminated and replaced with mixtures of the richest robots. 00:08:36 unless they become _so_ smart that they don't bother :) 00:08:45 Not with selection! 00:08:57 You must think or else you die. >:-) 00:09:14 And by "think", I mean "solve my intelligence problems". 00:09:19 they could become smart enough to rebel against such a system. we have, after all. 00:09:22 Because apparently, I have intelligence problems. 00:09:38 We've rebelled against the laws of physics? 00:10:04 no, against the laws of a society that oppresses them 00:10:17 These aren't laws of society. They're laws of physics. 00:10:29 Unless the bots find a hole in the program. 00:11:55 ah, you are simulating them... 00:12:25 I didn't say that, did I? 00:12:55 Yup, simulating. 00:13:37 unless you think you can really program their AIs to be forever unable to rebel 00:14:09 I could make their hardware that way. 00:14:55 have you read Freefall? 00:15:24 (another webcomic, with lots of crazy robots) 00:15:37 Yup. 00:16:04 Everything except maybe some "alternative" or "extra" strips and this Monday's strip. 00:16:12 ihope: people do rebel (i.e. suicide) 00:16:28 People who commit suicide tend to die. 00:16:37 so your selection won't simply be for the "smartest" robots, but merely for robots that tend to survive. 00:17:12 so perhaps you will never get the best investor robots, because the best ones don't like being forced into investing. 00:17:28 Selection will be for the richest robots. 00:18:40 Right, and what i said is still true. 00:19:02 The smartest robots might not want to become rich like this? 00:19:15 Surely enough selection will make every robot want to be rich. 00:19:37 they might not. They will just waste your cycles complaining about the unfairness of life and writing down theorems on napkins. 00:19:44 And then dying. 00:20:25 Every robot will be generated based on the richest robots. 00:21:00 they might create communism to defeat the system 00:21:15 Hmm... 00:21:36 Find a way to become richer than the "legitimately" rich robots? 00:21:58 no, find i way to force no one to become "legitimately" rich 00:22:00 *a 00:22:55 or, better yet, force ihope to change the selection requirements. 00:23:07 Force people who would normally become rich to not? 00:23:28 yep 00:23:34 for example they could convince you that you'd be more interested in a program that creates and proves interesting theorems 00:23:51 What if I pay them to do that? 00:24:08 for example 00:24:20 then your program will no longer select for good investors; it will select for good mathematicians 00:24:34 zzzzzzzzzzz 00:24:43 I'm after paying these robots to solve intelligence problems. 00:24:54 Suppose we have a bunch of robots, none of them rich. Robot C is almost rich, but none of the other robots want him to become rich. I offer to pay Robot C to solve some problem for me. 00:25:04 How will the other robots prevent Robot C from becoming rich? 00:28:02 By becoming doing Robot C's problem better than C. 00:29:08 ihope: by threatining that if C gets the money and doesn't split it equally with the other robots, they will stop all interaction with C, including financial 00:29:57 so that C will have to decide if your promise is good enough for it 00:30:02 An equivalent solution. . . 00:30:04 to survive without any help from other robots 00:30:14 Err. 00:30:17 Equally good, even. 00:40:54 I'll also suppose that nobody can do the problem better than C can. 00:42:39 yes, but you'll be mistaken, because D can do it better. 00:42:47 but D won't tell you, because D is a communist. 00:43:10 ihope: The obvious solution, then, is to disable C. 00:43:21 Who says the other robots can disable C? 00:43:35 I assume it's possible unless you state otherwise. 00:43:48 If it is otherwise, then you're creating a really, really unnatural environment. 00:44:01 Robots cannot do anything that isn't essentially mutually consented trading. 00:44:24 Well, then, that is *obviously* a really unnatural environment. 00:44:32 lament's solution appears to be the only one feasible. 00:44:43 Unnatural, yes, but it can be simulated. 00:45:32 C is the best robot at a certain problem, and I offer it lots of money to solve it. The other robots threaten to cut it off. J, O and Z say that they'll deal with C if they're paid a lot. 00:45:58 The other robots threaten to cut them off, too, so the rest of the alphabet steps in, the deal is made, and they all get cut off from everybody else. 00:46:10 ihope: if you already know C is the best robot, then you don't need the entire simulation. 00:46:12 But they still become richer than everybody else. 00:46:13 the problem is, you don't. 00:46:36 Hmm... 00:46:54 So I can't quite specifically ask C to do it. 00:47:03 anyway, the robots will survive for now, once you give them the money, but will they be able to survive forever on it? 00:47:16 eventually other robots will get richer and displace these 00:47:21 All they need is money, really. 00:47:24 and these won't get any money from other robots 00:47:30 because other robots won't trade with them anymore 00:47:33 Money and intelligence. 00:47:43 so they'll die 00:47:53 so C will refuse your deal :) 00:47:55 They could get more money from other sources. 00:48:04 Like me. 00:48:16 the only other source is you, and it's less reliable. 00:48:55 eventually they'll fail to solve some problem for you, and die. 00:49:21 (or you will give them money anyway, despite them failing, in which case you're clearly not selecting for any useful characteristics) 00:49:45 -!- pikhq_ has joined. 00:49:56 -!- pikhq has quit (Nick collision from services.). 00:50:04 -!- pikhq_ has changed nick to pikhq. 01:00:10 That's true. 01:24:11 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good night"). 01:25:27 Also, I feel like I've sort of stumbled onto treasure, a little: http://freefall.purrsia.com/funstuff/ 01:25:53 Among other things, there are 87 strips that aren't part of what seems to be the "main canon". 01:27:47 The first of those seems to be from 1993. 01:27:53 The main stuff starts in 1998. 01:28:34 http://freefall.purrsia.com/funstuff/eff008.gif 01:32:24 http://freefall.purrsia.com/funstuff/eff022.gif 01:32:27 Early Freefall computer! 01:32:50 Looks rather like a laptop. They now seem to look more like heavy picture frames. 01:33:55 http://freefall.purrsia.com/funstuff/eff028.gif 01:35:10 Some of these I thought were in the main line. 01:39:35 Hey, there's even some from 1991. 01:51:18 And 1990. 01:52:00 And 89. 01:53:40 If they go as far back as 89 CE, do you think I'll be able to find some BCE in there? 01:54:27 -!- Sgeo has joined. 02:04:17 Sure, why not? 02:21:12 -!- cherez has joined. 02:39:37 -!- Sgeo has quit ("Ex-Chat"). 02:50:52 -!- Sgeo has joined. 03:04:51 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 03:31:54 -!- Shel2476 has joined. 03:43:07 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 03:44:11 -!- puzzlet has joined. 04:36:14 -!- Shel2476 has left (?). 04:50:02 ihope: I <3 that comic, BTW. 04:50:11 You bastard; you've made me lose an evening. :p 04:58:04 ihope, what comic? 04:58:15 or pikhq 04:58:47 http://freefall.purrsia.com/funstuff/ 05:34:42 'night everyone 05:34:59 -!- RodgerTheGreat has quit. 06:33:36 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 07:52:25 * pikhq just finished that comic's archives. 07:52:38 ihope: You made me spend 6 hours on that. 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:57:31 -!- ehird` has joined. 08:58:17 Esoteric programming language discussion | FORUM AND WIKI: esolangs.org | CHANNEL LOGS: http://ircbrowse.com/cdates.html?channel=esoteric | Rules: 1. Break at least *two* rules. 2: At least (10^10) bots must be on #esoteric 09:36:42 about the conversation on the robots commiting suicide... you usually make the bot's goals primitive 09:36:53 so... why would they commit suicide 09:52:10 -!- xor has changed nick to bsmntbombdood. 10:39:59 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit ("Man who stand in frond of car is tired. Man who stand behind car is exhausted."). 12:08:36 THE LAST PRIME NUMBER IS 3.14OINK. 12:49:10 your mother is the last prime number 13:06:37 your mother's mass is aleph-null! 13:07:25 i wish the writer of this tutorial knew finnish 13:07:31 http://home.inreach.com/sl2120/ilaksh/Chapter_1.html 13:08:00 because i don't know spanish pronunciation fully 13:09:01 how hard is it to create a simple conlang anyway? 13:09:20 you haven't made one? 13:09:55 i made something called 'spraints' when i was little 13:10:19 also made sounds for the game worms armageddon in it 13:10:59 you play W:A? 13:11:03 /played 13:11:10 all i remember from it is "tu mengande", which meant something like "you shall regret that" 13:11:20 tu = you, though that was a somplete accident 13:11:24 *complete 13:11:26 yes 13:11:31 i played it like 24/7 13:11:58 two people are still releasing patches for that under authorization for team17, you know 13:12:15 oh 13:12:23 i'm not into gaming nowadays really 13:12:36 i play all of about 3 games 13:12:36 :p 13:12:42 i play elastomania 13:12:50 and a version of it i made myself 13:12:59 that's pretty much it 13:13:11 also, i played this flash game called 'n' 13:13:22 and minesweeper of course 13:16:46 it's scary how much the game is being updated 13:16:54 i mean, unlimited resolution size for one thing 13:17:08 and near-unlimited full-colour maps 13:17:13 and the game's from 1999, damnit 13:18:36 wtf is a "voiced dorso-uvular trill" 13:18:43 :P 13:18:49 the english 'r'? 13:19:30 ah 13:19:49 heh 13:19:57 the german 'r' prolly... why can't people just give examples of them being said... 13:20:00 "voiced dorso-uvular trill, also known as 'r'" 13:20:06 i mean, the writer 13:20:46 i can say about 5 different r's 13:21:07 i speak german, english and finnish fluently, all have different ones... 13:21:12 so... that doesn't help 13:21:38 (err... i pronounce german right, i don't speak it fluently) 13:22:54 (i lack the part of the brain that stores gender for words) 13:23:55 i speak...english 13:23:58 and about 3 sentences of lojban 13:24:09 heh 13:25:23 "ty This consonant cluster may be pronounced either as it is spelled, or as a voiceless unaspirated dorso-palatal plosive"... does that mean as in 'tire'? 13:25:56 ty can be pronounced in a lot of ways 13:25:58 :\ 13:33:47 'unaspirated'... so you don't say the 'h' you usually have after 't', 'p', 'k' and such? 13:34:15 i guess those are the only ones so s/and such/ 13:36:18 god... why can't all languages have a pronunciation system like finnish... 13:36:49 well i guess everything has to suck someway 13:37:54 *some wya 13:37:55 *way 13:41:30 ehird`: how's the lojban pronunciation like? 13:42:30 good 13:42:38 consonants are mostly as in english 13:42:56 t/k/p are aspired? 13:43:01 i find that idiotic 13:43:05 um, whatever that is 13:43:13 you say 'h' after them 13:43:15 http://www.tlg.uci.edu/~opoudjis/lojbanbrochure/lessons/book1.html read the intro 13:43:29 the prononuciation stuff isn't long 13:43:32 except for like stick 13:43:35 where you don't 13:46:26 'stick' 13:47:02 stick 13:47:05 stick stick stick stick stick stick stick stick stick stick stick stick stick stick stick stick stick stick stick stick stick 13:47:37 err... exactly 13:47:50 stick stick stick 13:47:52 stickstickstickstick 13:48:01 stickystickstickstickstickstickystickstickstickstick 13:48:27 i should make a language where absolute pitch defines meaning 13:49:23 hmm... actually i can make it relative pitch and still make it possible only for singers to learn 13:49:28 stickystickstickstickstickstickystickstickstickstick 13:49:40 sticky... i don 13:49:41 sapgnoirejgojgj 13:50:01 sticky... i say 'h' after the 'k' as well... don't know if that's right 13:50:33 i guess it's correct 13:50:33 sticky stick stick stick sticky stick stick 13:50:49 i'll read lojban once i finish ilaksh, ilaksh looks more tempting 13:50:56 lojban is used by real people 13:51:12 a few are fluent to the degree of being able to think in lojban without mind-level to-english translation 13:51:27 and it's really easy 13:51:44 i wonder how simple a language can get while still being easy to learn and not overtly verbose 13:51:44 ...and ilaksh isn't? 13:51:49 no 13:51:53 nobody knows ilaksh 13:51:55 and i mean that literally 13:52:08 "No person is hitherto known to be able to speak Ithkuil; its creator, for one, does not: “I don't speak Ithkuil, never have, never will, never claimed to.”" 13:52:27 "Ithkuil (Iţkuîl) is an outstandingly complicated human language constructed by the American linguist John Quijada" 13:52:30 outstandingly complicated 13:52:33 might have something to do with it 13:53:31 well... i think that's a matter of opinion 13:53:34 (!) 13:53:54 okay okay, i'll try lojban... 13:54:06 http://www.tlg.uci.edu/~opoudjis/lojbanbrochure/lessons/book1.html do this book 13:54:08 it's great 13:54:28 i'll have to learn swedish and german before october though. 13:56:40 lojban has finnish pronunciation, though simplified verrry much 13:57:02 and 'i' and 'u' in the beginning of a diphtong are pronounced as consonants.. stupid 13:57:46 no they're not? 13:57:50 ? 13:58:26 ia like German Ja 13:58:29 "" 13:58:34 it's 'j' 13:58:36 i mean 'y' 13:58:46 it's not the vocal 'i'. 13:59:07 ah 13:59:17 i guess you wouldn't see the difference if you don't actually have the difference in your language 13:59:20 ia makes sense as german-ja, no? 13:59:24 sure 13:59:26 it's the natural combination of the sounds of i and a 13:59:31 but you could just have the finnish system 13:59:36 and just make it 'ja' 13:59:38 after all, lojban is meant to be logical - you can easily guess parts 13:59:54 oklofok: j is not pronounced as in ja in lojban 13:59:57 so you can't do that 14:00:12 'ia' can be said 'ia', you don't have to use 'j' 14:00:16 i mean 14:00:22 you don't have to consonantify the 'i' 14:00:34 oh, i guess i'll read it through before i start saying it sucks 14:00:50 that might be fair, since the creator is most likely a better linguist than me :P 14:01:33 oh 14:01:40 like german Ja is just an example 14:01:52 err yes 14:01:54 e is like in get 14:01:58 english get 14:02:01 ...yes 14:02:03 a is like in english father 14:02:10 i is like in machine 14:02:12 yeah, vocals are the same as in finnish 14:02:15 ia -> ja 14:02:31 if a is fAther and i machIne, then the most comfortable way to pronounce ia is like the german Ja 14:02:31 except for 'u' & 'i' -> consonant 14:02:38 ah 14:02:38 that does not mean it is defined as german "Ja" 14:02:42 it just means it's an example :) 14:03:11 so it's prolly actually 'ia', but people most likely can't say it 14:03:20 yes 14:03:22 i guess i should've thought of that 14:03:32 except convention means that basically /everybody/ says it like ja 14:03:50 so for the sake of a beginner's introduction, and most other purposes, it's defacto defined as that 14:03:58 so; yeah 14:04:08 if you're a programmer you'll like lojban 14:04:14 selbri are analogous to functions with arguments 14:07:36 lojban isn't short :< 14:08:36 if no one can speak ilaksh/ithkuil even if they can predecide what they are going to say, how can there be a pronunciation example on wikipedia? 14:08:41 that oumpe�� thing 14:08:52 that sounded goddamn sexy 14:09:05 oklofok: because many people will have collaborated 14:09:09 to produce the right sound 14:09:12 and lojban is short! 14:09:13 it's simple! 14:09:23 the lfb book just elaborates for the sake of newbies 14:09:29 anyone can create those sounds with a bit of training 14:09:37 sure 14:09:47 but people will have had to work out how to pronounce everything first 14:09:52 which would have taken an hour, or something 14:09:55 also, who cares about pronunciation, i never talk to anyone 14:10:02 well i do, but not that much 14:10:12 well nobody uses ithkuil 14:10:18 even outside of pronounciation 14:10:23 however lojban is quite widely know 14:10:23 n 14:10:40 how much does lojban shorten sentences? 14:11:36 lojban sentences are short 14:11:47 exemplify! 14:11:49 here, i'll fetch an example of lojban text 14:11:52 yay 14:12:22 http://home.nvg.org/~arj/dantimanti/ some random person's blog in lojban! :p 14:12:28 .i is the start of a sentence 14:12:49 http://laxmahispajispaji.blogspot.com/ some other blog linked on the lojban site! 14:13:03 http://perpetuum-immobile.de/komo.png a comic in lojban! 14:13:17 http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1710885982433758647 a random animated short ... thing in lojban! 14:13:19 is that enough? :p 14:13:45 lojban is longer than english 14:13:54 ! 14:14:19 tell that to #lojban 14:14:36 no, really - do :) 14:14:45 oh 14:14:47 i shall 14:25:43 everything is longer than english 14:40:33 -!- ehird` has quit ("Leaving"). 14:40:46 SimonRC: huh? 14:41:23 i doubt that 14:42:33 IME it is 14:43:13 ithkuil beat it in the one example i've seen 14:43:14 ! 14:46:29 -!- ehird` has joined. 14:46:59 i just know finnish, swedish, german and english, and english wins among those 14:47:17 so that's my experience too, gotta admit 15:19:16 I know a chunk of Spanish. 15:20:04 -!- wellons has joined. 15:24:30 i know random bits of spanish, but i don't know how it's pronounced correctly in every case 15:26:15 I think I pretty much know Spanish pronunciation. 15:26:51 I don't know just how "x" works, though, and apparently there are things like n being pronounced as m sometimes. 15:27:09 I do know gue, gui, que, qui. 15:27:20 it's hard learning it completely if your teacher isn't native 15:27:46 hmm... i don't remember how 'g' works in that case 15:27:59 how does it? 15:28:12 G is pronounced the same in ga, gue, gui, go, gu. 15:28:41 The only difference between the pronunciations is the vowel following. 15:28:59 i just remember it's not pronounced at all in 'agua' 15:29:05 It's not? 15:29:08 nope 15:29:12 that'd be a'ua 15:29:17 when pronounced 15:30:02 i do not know why, the teacher just said it's so... only programmers should teach languages, dammit 15:30:24 Hmm. 15:30:37 I thought it was at least pronounced a little. 15:30:47 hmm 15:30:54 it's pronounced a little, yes. 15:40:18 -!- RodgerTheGreat has joined. 15:40:38 howdy, everyone 15:40:54 Ello. 15:41:43 hi, ihope 16:03:00 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 16:03:16 RodgerTheGreat: howdy 16:03:35 hi, wellons 16:42:54 -!- jix_ has joined. 16:49:22 I want quantum computers to be able to run "normal" programs efficiently. 16:49:56 -!- sebbu has joined. 16:50:03 Are they good at things with quantifiers? 16:50:49 (E.g. "there does not exist X such that 1 < X < Y and Z mod X = 0") 16:53:29 (Factoring an integer of length n is solving that problem O(n) times, I believe.) 17:03:00 quantum computers are good at integer factorization, iirc 17:03:12 RodgerTheGreat: 17:03:13 RodgerTheGreat: hi 17:03:19 hello 17:16:32 Yay! 17:16:44 I just did lucid dreaming. 17:17:00 I will need practice to improve. 17:18:13 Yay! 17:18:48 Notably, I was kinda-paralysed. 17:25:24 lucid dreaming is fun 17:25:32 i really need to start practicing and stuff 17:25:39 but occasionally i randomly get lucid 17:25:57 me too 17:26:02 i have full movement and can fly and pick up cars and all that, but i can't control the enviroment 17:26:09 i can't create pink elephants 17:26:12 or give a house legs 17:26:31 i often find it hard to move around even when lucid dreaming 17:26:32 The environment is different from the cars? 17:26:40 ihope: i can touch the cars; and pick them up 17:26:47 that's a movement i'm familiar with 17:26:54 but i don't know any kind of movement to give houses legs 17:27:04 Remove a random person's legs and put them on the house! 17:27:09 ihope: one can usually just do stuff that could happen in real lige 17:27:11 *life 17:27:11 how do i remove a random person's legs? 17:27:17 oklofok: not true 17:27:17 By pulling! 17:27:26 heh 17:27:27 ihope: anyway, i'd have to find a person first 17:27:28 you see? 17:27:37 ehird`: how come? 17:27:41 ah fly 17:27:46 okay, i can do that too, often 17:27:52 oklofok: you can do literally anything, with a little bit of practice 17:28:00 it's just your mind 17:28:04 i know 17:28:07 Remove a finger from yourself and plant it in the ground! 17:28:15 Once a person grows, take their finger and legs. 17:28:19 heh 17:28:29 i meant usually when people lucid dream, they can just do what they could in real life, except they might be a bit superhuman 17:28:30 maybe i'd ring up International Stork Postage 17:28:34 "hi, can i have a baby please" 17:28:36 Yeah! 17:28:41 Oddly, a few days ago I was dreaming and I was changin stuff by concentrating (like that kid out of the Twilight Zone), but I didn't realise I was dreaming. 17:29:05 i once had a dream which consisted of me performing reality checks 17:29:10 heh 17:29:11 and that was actually the topic of the dream 17:29:14 i didn't decide to RC or anything 17:29:18