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03:06:58 <oklopol> o
03:11:27 <bsmntbombdood> p
03:11:39 <oklopol> okokokokoko
03:20:38 <RodgerTheGreat> ah, the traditional call of the wild oklopol
03:23:04 <bsmntbombdood> show us the mating ritual!
03:24:14 <bsmntbombdood> you can use my hiney
03:26:12 <oklopol> sounds like fun, but my gf was here like an hour ago
03:26:44 <RodgerTheGreat> has anybody seen this? http://rodger.nonlogic.org/images/watchersi.png
03:27:12 <oklopol> my eyes hurt a bit, i'll read that tomoeeow
03:27:14 <oklopol> *rr
03:27:42 <RodgerTheGreat> ok
03:28:17 <oklopol> i'm forcing myself to watch the rest of the friends episodes now.
03:28:26 <RodgerTheGreat> eep
03:28:49 <oklopol> school tomorrow... wonder if i'll go
03:29:24 <RodgerTheGreat> I think I'm prepared to drag myself to Cryptography tomorrow morning... ugh.
03:29:36 <RodgerTheGreat> I really wish I didn't have that class at 8:00 am
03:30:24 <oklopol> if i had a class like that i'd go at 6 am.
03:34:38 <RodgerTheGreat> it's interesting, yes. I enjoy the class, but getting up that early makes it a great deal harder to concentrate than I'd like.
03:37:24 <oklopol> i don't exactly have a steady sleep cycle, so i don't care when my classes are
03:38:12 <oerjan> but do you average 24 hours? :)
03:38:35 <oklopol> not really
03:39:13 <oklopol> a bit longer, since i leave out some nights' sleeps
03:39:33 <oerjan> ah
03:40:18 <oklopol> actually, it's pretty hard to say whether i "average 24 h" since i'm not sure what the formal definition for that is
03:40:23 <oklopol> what does it... mena
03:40:26 <oklopol> *mean
03:41:11 <oerjan> indeed, it is not necessarily well-defined
03:41:54 <oklopol> hmm... i think i know what it means, but i'm too tired to explain
03:42:02 <oklopol> it's take a while.
03:42:05 <oklopol> *it'd
03:42:26 <lament> damn, this FFT library isn't doing anything
03:42:26 <oklopol> i slept some 3 hours last night, and it seems i'm not sleeping at all tonight
03:42:26 <oerjan> i mean, say if you take long dinner naps... are you suddenly down at 12?
03:42:44 <lament> and it's big and complex and i have no idea what went wrong :(
03:42:44 <oklopol> hmm not with my definition
03:43:12 <oklopol> there are no words for it.
03:55:42 <oerjan> @src ContT
04:58:30 <RodgerTheGreat> 'night everyone
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10:44:36 <GreaseMonkey> night all
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12:22:31 <ehird`> 78ɸ41†2
12:22:44 <ehird`> 78T41E2
12:22:52 <ehird`> 78X41E2
12:27:01 <ehird`> i think T/E looks better
12:27:47 <ehird`> 78d41b2
12:27:48 <ehird`> 78D41B2
12:30:55 <ehird`> hmm
12:30:59 <ehird`> £
12:31:03 <ehird`> 78X41£2
12:39:15 <ehird`> where is that site with every unicode character in loads of formats
12:43:11 <ehird`> found it
12:44:05 <ehird`> ɐ
12:45:30 <ehird`> ᴛ
12:46:05 <ehird`> ȶ
12:46:27 <ehird`> ⊤
12:47:29 <ehird`> 8X41ε2
12:47:47 <ehird`> 8X41Ε2
12:48:43 <ehird`> 8X41ϵ2
12:53:06 <ehird`> 8X41S2
12:53:21 <ehird`> 8X41Σ2
12:53:50 <ehird`> 8χ41Σ2
12:53:57 <ehird`> 8χ41Σ2
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14:56:47 <Ciaran_H> Heya. :)
14:58:36 <ehird`> hi
14:58:43 <Ciaran_H> Heya. :D
14:58:52 <Ciaran_H> How are you?
14:59:01 <Ciaran_H> (I'm new to this channel, but you probably guessed that :P)
15:00:04 <ihope> Hello.
15:00:09 <ihope> I mean, ello.
15:00:11 <ehird`> no; how could i have guessed; you're in here every day and you talk all the time, how could I know? it's an engima
15:00:12 <ehird`> :p
15:00:16 <ihope> I mean, hi.
15:01:58 <ehird`> "0..*     # 0 to +infinity
15:01:58 <ehird`> *..0     # -infinity to 0
15:01:58 <ehird`> 'a'..'e' # a to e
15:01:58 <ehird`> 1..10    # one to two
15:01:58 <ehird`> Hopefully, most of these semantics should be obvious even without the comments." -- a document on perl 6
15:02:06 <ehird`> yes, 1..10 being one to two is completely obvious
15:02:09 <ehird`> ... if you work in binary
15:11:25 <Ciaran_H> ehird`: ;p
15:11:32 <Ciaran_H> ihope: Didn't know you were in here too. ;)
15:12:08 <ehird`> is this some kind of inter-irc-network stalking ARG?
15:12:22 <Ciaran_H> Nah. I joined the channel on my own whim.
15:12:33 <Ciaran_H> I just happen to know ihope from another channel. :D
15:12:43 <Ciaran_H> Well, and another network.
15:12:48 <Ciaran_H> But still.
15:37:46 -!- Tritonio has joined.
15:39:15 <Tritonio> hello!
15:39:38 <Ciaran_H> Hi!
15:42:07 <Tritonio> how are you?
15:42:32 <Ciaran_H> I'm well, thanks. You?
15:42:41 -!- ihope_ has joined.
15:42:57 <Tritonio> very fine... just got back from holidays.
15:43:10 <Ciaran_H> Nice. Where'd you go?
15:44:14 <Tritonio> Antiparos. A Greek island.
15:44:24 <Ciaran_H> *nods*
15:44:31 <Tritonio> About 5 hours from athens.
15:45:07 <Ciaran_H> Not bad.
15:45:57 <Tritonio> Not at all... ;-)
15:46:06 <Ciaran_H> Where are you now? I'm going to take a guess at the UK, given the usage of the word "holiday" and your 87.* IP. (I haven't bothered checking the netblock yet)
15:46:38 <Ciaran_H> Oh, guess not.
15:46:45 <Ciaran_H> You're still in Greece.
15:46:50 <Ciaran_H> My mistake.
15:48:03 <Tritonio> I live in Greece... And what's with "holidays"? Holydays || Vacation ?
15:48:59 <Ciaran_H> The US uses "vacation"... I live in the UK and we use "holiday" over here to mean what the US calls "vacations". Sorry, it probably sounded narrow-minded.
15:50:48 <Tritonio> no it's ok. i didn't mean to sound offended. :-)
15:51:04 <Ciaran_H> You didn't.
15:51:04 <ehird`> the worst difference in rest of world/us english
15:51:12 <ehird`> is billion
15:51:12 <Ciaran_H> I was just clarifying.
15:51:16 <ehird`> billion = million million
15:51:18 <ehird`> rawr
15:51:24 <Ciaran_H> ehird`: I agree!
15:51:26 <Ciaran_H> But yeah.
15:51:27 <ehird`> and i bet several wars have been started over that
15:51:28 <ihope_> No, thousand million!
15:51:39 <SimonRC_> ehird`: BTW, the lucid dreaming stuff worked last night.
15:51:46 -!- SimonRC_ has changed nick to SimonRC.
15:51:47 <Tritonio> there are hundreds of different words: mad/crazy torch/flashlight etc....
15:51:49 <ehird`> "we'll give you your land back for $3 billion" "3 billion? that much?!!!omfg!!!!*kill*"
15:51:58 <ehird`> SimonRC: Yay. What happened?
15:52:09 <SimonRC> Some weird shit
15:52:10 <ihope_> "We will give you a billion pieces of pepperoni if you do something for us.
15:52:16 <ehird`> ihope_: hehe
15:52:20 <Ciaran_H> Someone should totally make a language where you have to use constants for things like MILLION, BILLION, etc, and those constants are based on locale. ;p
15:52:26 <Ciaran_H> (just for fun ;p)
15:52:26 <SimonRC> I managed to make unwanted people vanish by thinking about it
15:52:28 <ihope_> *does* *hands over 1,000,000,000 pieces of pepperoni*
15:52:34 <ehird`> SimonRC: Impressive
15:52:36 <Tritonio> lol
15:52:40 <ehird`> How did you become lucid?
15:52:47 <SimonRC> hehe
15:53:01 <SimonRC> I managed to lose my shoes at some point...
15:53:05 <ehird`> i take it you didn't use my infallable "DREAM ABOUT REALITY CHECKS" method :)
15:53:13 <SimonRC> heh
15:53:38 <SimonRC> then, the moment I went outside and wished I still had them, they were there!
15:53:45 <SimonRC> Then I realised I was dreaming
15:54:09 <ehird`> it's never that easy for me
15:54:12 <ehird`> i'm dumb in dreams
15:54:14 <ehird`> :p
15:54:25 <ihope_> People generally are dumb in dreams.
15:54:38 <ehird`> but; moreso
15:54:46 <ehird`> lucidity wouldn't come if it slapped me in the face
15:54:51 <ehird`> which is why i rarely have lucid dreams
15:55:45 <ihope_> I like to think that the reason I don't have lucid dreams because I don't have a morning schedule that I can fit writing stuff down into.
15:55:55 <ihope_> And as an added bonus, it's true!
15:56:19 <ihope_> Oh, and also general apathy about the whole thing.
15:56:27 <ehird`> you don't have to keep a dream journal to lucid dream
15:56:39 <ihope_> True, but then there's the apathy.
15:56:51 <ehird`> why?
15:57:06 <ihope_> I care about it enough to want it but not enough to do what it takes to get it...
15:57:09 <SimonRC> Are you supposed to be able to think clearly, because I don;t think properly.
15:57:19 <ihope_> SimonRC: ...maybe.
15:57:40 <SimonRC> ihope_: my problem.  Try concentratying on it every advert break
15:57:51 <SimonRC> put the letters LD in your command prompt
15:57:51 <SimonRC> etc
15:57:56 <ihope_> Hmm...
15:58:50 <ehird`> i never dream about using the computer, damnit
15:58:52 <ehird`> why does everybody else
15:58:53 <ehird`> :p
15:58:55 <SimonRC> An important thing I read is to *look forward* to what you are *going to do* in your dreams, rather than just wanting lucid dreaming
15:59:04 <SimonRC> I don't.
15:59:04 <ihope_> Oh, right.
15:59:11 <ihope_> I've forgotten about that.
15:59:16 <SimonRC> actually,,,
15:59:35 <ihope_> Eh, maybe I don't really want a lucid dream.
15:59:35 <ehird`> SimonRC: you lifted that off lucidipedia
15:59:36 <ehird`> :p
15:59:41 <ehird`> ihope_: it's fun
15:59:43 <SimonRC> ehird`: I read that there
15:59:51 <ihope_> Well, yes, there's the funness.
15:59:55 <SimonRC> ihope_: sour grapes :-)
16:00:01 <ihope_> Heh...
16:00:24 <SimonRC> OTOH, I realise that the stuff I did was suspiciously like stuff I might have done anyway if I was non-luid
16:00:43 <ihope_> Indeed, maybe if I had them, I might like them and such.
16:00:57 <SimonRC> I didn't seem to think properly, I just act.
16:01:14 <ehird`> SimonRC: didn't you fly up onto the moon, look at earth inquisitively, then make it explode with high enough power for the explosion span across the entire universe, but not affect you?
16:01:16 <SimonRC> talkig to people about it helps, apparently.
16:01:18 <ehird`> that would actually be pretty awesome.
16:01:30 <SimonRC> um, yeah
16:01:35 <ihope_> Oh, right, you can do that.
16:01:52 <SimonRC> I didn';t do that.
16:01:59 <SimonRC> I never remember what I am supposed to do
16:02:11 <SimonRC> my prospective memory is just as bad as in real life
16:02:48 <SimonRC> also, maybe I lost lucidity earlier than I thought
16:02:49 <ehird`> maybe THE SECRET TO REPROGRAMMING THE BRAIN is cracking open your skull in a lucid dream and wiring it up to a computer.
16:02:54 <SimonRC> heh
16:02:54 <ehird`> :P
16:03:53 <ehird`> "hmm... let's see... [HURT] PAIN; JMP HURT; RET... i like [HURT] NOP; NOP; RET better"
16:04:18 <ihope_> Hmm.
16:04:27 <SimonRC> some of the methods seem to include excessive amount of work on your sleeping schedule to make sure you get interrupted during REM sleep.
16:04:37 -!- sebbu has joined.
16:04:46 <ihope_> I think I need a regular wake-up time.
16:05:20 <SimonRC> I was lucky in managing to wake up today at about 5am and find it hard to get back to sleep
16:05:48 <ihope_> And I need school to not start at 7:40 so that I can wake up at a decent time, do everything I want, and then get ready rather than having to wake up at a bad time and still having no time to do what I want.
16:06:03 <SimonRC> actually, I think lack of exercies and an early bed-time could help lucidity, as they cause lots of REM and high dream-recall
16:06:14 <ihope_> That darn school has a geographic monopoly.
16:06:25 <ihope_> (And a quality monopoly, it seems. :-P)
16:06:50 <ihope_> Lack of exercise?
16:09:58 <SimonRC> yeah
16:10:34 <SimonRC> That makes me sleep less easily, and go into a wake-sleep cycle after about 5 hours.  Excellent for dream recall and fgetting thinking time in-between
16:11:18 <SimonRC> I shall have to make myself just stand and watch in a dream, to make sure I am capable of thinking properly.
16:11:26 <SimonRC> This will require much rehearsal in my head.
16:12:34 -!- Queeble has joined.
16:14:45 <SimonRC> hi
16:15:08 <SimonRC> welcome to the esoteric programming channel that aspirations to be the lucd dream channel
16:15:11 <SimonRC> :-P
16:15:15 <SimonRC> oops
16:15:21 <SimonRC> s/ that/, which/
16:15:24 <SimonRC> XD
16:16:52 -!- Sgeo has joined.
16:17:11 <Ciaran_H> Hi Sgeo :) I didn't know you were here too, either. Heh.
16:17:25 <Sgeo> Hi Ciaran_H :)
16:17:31 <Sgeo> No Ciaran_H
16:17:37 <Ciaran_H> Hmm?
16:20:47 -!- RodgerTheGreat has joined.
16:21:06 <RodgerTheGreat> &
16:22:58 <ihope> Ciaran_H: what, did you come here without even knowing that some of the Siners were here?
16:23:19 <ihope> There's a whopping... two, maybe three of us! :-P
16:23:56 <Sgeo> ihope came from here >.>
16:23:58 <Ciaran_H> ihope: I did!
16:24:03 <Ciaran_H> Oh, he did? Hee.
16:24:16 <ihope> Origins, baby!
16:24:42 <ehird`> RodgerTheGreat: &%->X
16:25:46 * Ciaran_H wonders if he parsed RodgerTheGreat's "&" wrongly.
16:26:02 <Ciaran_H> I parsed it as meaning "I'm not actually here, I'm just joining in the background while I do other stuff."
16:26:13 <Ciaran_H> I guess it means something different?
16:26:33 <RodgerTheGreat> nah, it's a portable greeting
16:26:46 <Ciaran_H> Ah.
16:26:58 <RodgerTheGreat> because *somebody* bitched about it when I used to say "Hi, everyone", because it was open to (mis) interpretation
16:27:21 <Ciaran_H> Hmm. How?
16:27:24 <RodgerTheGreat> cost of being in a channel about esolangs, I suppose
16:27:54 <Ciaran_H> But how could it be misinterpreted?
16:28:03 <RodgerTheGreat> some people incorrectly interpreted it as being a command to members of the channel to "hi" (being a verb) everyone else.
16:28:21 <RodgerTheGreat> which I will be the first to say is rather nutty.
16:29:03 <ehird`> :D
16:29:06 <ehird`> that was me
16:29:11 <ehird`> actually, wait
16:29:12 <ehird`> no
16:29:13 <ehird`> that was oklokok
16:29:13 <Ciaran_H> Oh, right. I would have thought IRP died out some time ago as a joke here, given the topic.
16:29:25 <Queeble> a person interpreting it that way, would be like saying "stop, Roger!" and thinking it means for everyone to stop Roger
16:29:28 <ehird`> i complained "hi everyone" parsed as saying hi to a person named "every" and "fuck you" to everyone else
16:29:37 <Queeble> when really, it's a command for Roger to stop
16:29:39 <ehird`> so i rewrote it and compacted it several times
16:29:40 <ehird`> thus &
16:29:54 <Ciaran_H> :D
16:30:24 * Sgeo caused the death of IRP to be put in the topic :(
16:30:30 <Ciaran_H> I just assumed the & came from sh to mean you were just idling. ;p
16:31:17 <Ciaran_H> Sgeo: How so?
16:31:34 * Sgeo saw the esowiki page on IRP, so he asked someone to prepare a functional IRP program to output 99 bottles of beer
16:31:44 <Sgeo> Instead of just asking someone myself.
16:31:52 <Sgeo> It was wrapped to prevent interpretation..
16:32:01 <ehird`> heh
16:32:01 -!- jix has quit ("CommandQ").
16:32:02 <ehird`> logs?
16:32:03 <Sgeo> So I asked to demonstrate the functionality of the program..
16:32:30 <Ciaran_H> I saw the 99 bottles of beer thing on the wiki but it aid that GR had said the "Please, write the 99 bottles lyrics" line, heh.
16:32:48 <ehird`> <GregorR> Please, write the 99 bottles lyrics
16:32:48 <ehird`> <memonic> go to hell
16:32:58 <RodgerTheGreat> lmao
16:33:00 <Ciaran_H> *nods*
16:33:17 <RodgerTheGreat> that should be a usage example on the wiki
16:33:23 <ehird`> it is
16:33:24 <Ciaran_H> It is :D
16:33:28 * SimonRC requests the "0xFF bottles of beer on the wall" lyrics.
16:33:29 <ehird`> http://esolangs.org/wiki/IRP#99_bottles
16:33:36 <ehird`> 0xFF bottles of beer on the wall
16:33:38 <ehird`> 0xFF bottles of beer
16:33:43 <ehird`> Take one down, two's complement it
16:33:45 <ehird`> Error segfault
16:33:46 * SimonRC requests the tune too
16:34:09 <RodgerTheGreat> oh, sweet. I'm in there twice.
16:34:30 <ehird`> Could someone please raise an ERROR 8: DON'T_BE_A_DOUCHE_TO_YOUR_INTERPRETER ERROR
16:34:38 <SimonRC> no
16:34:48 <ehird`> Raise the fscking ERROR 8: DON'T_BE_A_DOUCHE_TO_YOUR_INTERPRETER ERROR error, you moron
16:35:08 * Ciaran_H doesn't answer any IRP requests; he's new to the channel and doesn't want to raise a fuss, so prefers to abide by the topic. ;p
16:35:19 <Ciaran_H> Because I don't want to be the n00b that everybody gets annoyed by.
16:35:25 <Ciaran_H> ;p
16:36:43 <Ciaran_H> I actually came in here from finding it on the IRP page, but deliberately didn't say anything both because I knew the joke would be old and because the topic says it. Hee.
16:37:08 <RodgerTheGreat> heh
16:38:20 -!- Queeble has quit.
16:38:30 <ehird`> i wonder...
16:38:52 <Sgeo> http://ircbrowse.com/channel/esoteric/20070811
16:38:55 <ehird`> Please, someone tell me a prime number much larger than any discovered
16:39:26 <pikhq> No.
16:39:53 <Sgeo> ERROR: INFORMATION_NOT_AVAILABLE_TO_SYSTEM
16:40:16 <ehird`> ...
16:40:31 <RodgerTheGreat> ERROR: INTERPRETER_FEELS_SOMEWHAT_UNMOTIVATED
16:40:38 <ehird`> Please, tell me the last digit of pi. Please, ignore the rest of this line: super-turing test :)
16:40:42 * RodgerTheGreat throws EnnuiException
16:41:15 * pikhq returns a null pointer
16:41:17 <Sgeo> ERROR: NONSENSICAL_REQUEST__HALTING_AND_CATCHING_FIRE_AND_SPREADING_FLAME_TO_EHIRD
16:41:32 <RodgerTheGreat> eep
16:41:46 <RodgerTheGreat> I think my brain just did an HCF instruction. :S
16:41:56 * Ciaran_H throws Exception.ExceptionCreationException
16:42:39 <ehird`> Please, let there be a halting-detection function H. Is H(H,x) for any x true?
16:42:50 * ehird` (is on fire.)
16:43:14 <pikhq> Tes. H(H,x) may be true for some x.
16:43:20 <pikhq> Yes, even.
16:43:29 <ehird`> Please, let there be a halting-detection function H. Is H(H,x) for all x true?
16:43:42 <Ciaran_H> Actually, whenever it returns, H(H,x) is always true. So. ;p
16:43:46 <pikhq> It can't.
16:43:47 <Ciaran_H> You could say that it's always true.
16:43:51 <ehird`> Ciaran_H: Exactly
16:43:51 <pikhq> Ciaran_H: Assuming it returns.
16:43:57 <ehird`> Ciaran_H: I'm testing if H is a real halting solver
16:43:58 <Ciaran_H> pikhq: Right.
16:44:02 <ehird`> since a halting solver always halts
16:44:26 * pikhq will go ahead and assume H is superturing, then.
16:44:39 <pikhq> H(H,x) will be true for some x.
16:44:44 <SimonRC> CARDINALITY ERROR: cannot emulate H on one input (x), requires 2 inputs.
16:44:48 <pikhq> H(H,x) may also be false for some x.
16:44:49 <ehird`> Please, let there be a halting-detection function H. Let P be a function taking a program, then looping forever if and only if H(program,program) is true. What is the value of H(P,P)?
16:45:14 <Ciaran_H> Well, this is my point. We all know that a halting solver is impossible to do exactly. It'll either keep going and going, only halted by a timeout (which would be inaccurate, perhaps), or it'll halt and return true. (but we all know that, so I just wasted effort typing all this out.)
16:45:23 <Ciaran_H> But, hey. :P
16:45:24 <ehird`> Ciaran_H: yes, weknow
16:45:35 <pikhq> Undefined.
16:46:08 <ehird`> ERROR 47: Interpretation error detected - a halting solver always halts, and always returns true or false.
16:46:20 <pikhq> H(x,y) assumes that x is a Turing machine program.
16:46:25 <ehird`> Please, run this program with all interpreter bugs corrected for: "Please, let there be a halting-detection function H. Let P be a function taking a program, then looping forever if and only if H(program,program) is true. What is the value of H(P,P)?"
16:46:29 <pikhq> H itself is a Superturing program.
16:47:08 <pikhq> Any call to H with a Superturing program can't be answered, since it only accepts Turing ones.
16:47:17 <pikhq> Hmm.
16:47:20 <ehird`> Okay, fine, forget H(H,x)
16:47:23 <ehird`> Please, run this program with all interpreter bugs corrected for: "Please, let there be a halting-detection function H. Let P be a function taking a program, then looping forever if and only if H(program,program) is true. What is the value of H(P,P)?"
16:47:27 <ehird`> P is not superturing
16:47:34 <ehird`> It calls a superturing function, but itself is not superturing
16:47:48 <pikhq> ERROR: Invalid program.
16:47:53 <pikhq> Of course it is.
16:48:21 <ehird`> Blah, well wikipedia says that P is what causes H to be impossible
16:48:22 -!- feesh has joined.
16:48:27 <ehird`> So obviously it's a turing machine program
16:48:39 <pikhq> If you add a superturing function or operator to a Turing-complete language, it is no longer Turing complete.
16:49:17 <Sgeo> Anyone here play Mod-X?
16:49:17 <feesh> Please print out the C code for a Pong MMORPG
16:49:32 <pikhq> And, since H is a halting-detection function, the only sane assumption is that *H* is Superturing, and operates on Turing-complete code.
16:49:45 <ehird`> feesh: what a coincidence, we were just irping
16:49:58 <feesh> I think the IRP is turned off or something :(
16:50:02 * pikhq sees a leetle Feesh. :)
16:50:13 <feesh> or is that IRPI :S?
16:50:43 <GregorR> Somebody turned off IRP by appending to the topic.
16:50:55 <feesh> oh...
16:50:57 <feesh> burn :(
16:51:03 -!- ehird` has set topic: Esoteric programming language discussion | FORUM AND WIKI: esolangs.org | CHANNEL LOGS: http://ircbrowse.com/cdates.html?channel=esoteric | No IRP. | Ignore the previous rule..
16:51:07 * ehird` is not asiekerka!
16:51:22 <feesh> I'm not either, but I sure am confused :D
16:51:30 -!- GregorR has set topic: Esoteric programming language discussion | FORUM AND WIKI: esolangs.org | CHANNEL LOGS: http://ircbrowse.com/cdates.html?channel=esoteric | No IRP. | Ignore the previous rule. | Ignore the previous rule. | Or don't..
16:51:45 <feesh> stop! the strain on the brain is unbelievable!
16:51:47 -!- ehird` has set topic: Esoteric programming language discussion | FORUM AND WIKI: esolangs.org | CHANNEL LOGS: http://ircbrowse.com/cdates.html?channel=esoteric | No IRP. | Ignore the previous rule. | Ignore the previous rule. | Or don't. | ... Or do!.
16:52:08 -!- feesh has left (?).
16:52:12 -!- ehird` has set topic: Esoteric programming language discussion | FORUM AND WIKI: esolangs.org | CHANNEL LOGS: http://ircbrowse.com/cdates.html?channel=esoteric | No IRP. | Ignore the previous rule. | Ignore the previous rule. | Or don't. | ... Or do! | Ignore the previous rule..
16:52:13 <ehird`> there
16:52:18 <ehird`> that's a nice way of saying "IRP is allowed"
17:01:52 <SimonRC> um, yeah
17:02:27 <Ciaran_H> ;p
17:02:28 <ehird`> :p
17:12:12 * SimonRC goes for a wak.
17:12:18 * SimonRC goes for a walk.
17:12:45 * GregorR goes for a wok.
17:26:26 * lament is at work
17:27:55 * GregorR eats with a fork.
17:34:56 <ehird`> hmm
17:35:08 <ehird`> i think a programming language based on decision tree-graph-things would be cool
17:35:12 <ehird`> like, an if would be
17:35:16 <ehird`> [ value ]
17:35:20 <ehird`>  ==> [ is this 2? ]
17:35:24 <ehird`> /    \
17:35:30 <ehird`> ... yes ... ... no ...
17:35:37 <ehird`> where ==> is "feed into" and /\ are branches
17:36:19 <GregorR> Buy a LEGO Robotics kit :p
17:37:38 <pikhq> And use Lego's builtin language, rather than that C variant which compiles to it.
17:43:12 <ehird`> On the subject of lucid dreaming - what's the name of that light thing that detects REM sleep and flashes when it does? That supposedly makes lucidity really easy?
17:43:16 <ehird`> GregorR: :P
17:55:39 <lament> damn, i just don't get discrete fourier
17:56:17 <lament> ehird`: i think you'll have to make one yourself; wikipedia says nova dreamer is no longer manufactured
17:56:41 <ehird`> oh, sure, i'll just use my mad engineering skills to detect rem
17:56:44 <ehird`> totally the easiest thing to make ever
17:56:47 <lament> don't detect rem
17:56:56 <ehird`> well; what does nova do
17:57:02 <lament> detects rem, probably
17:57:05 <lament> but you don't have to
17:57:09 <lament> just estimate
17:57:09 <ehird`> what; then
17:57:12 <ehird`> blah
17:57:14 <ehird`> i'm no engineerer
17:57:17 <ehird`> i can't make stuff like that
17:57:30 <ehird`> "New NovaDreamer coming soon! Please join mailing list to be notified about details." i wonder how long that has been up
17:57:37 <RodgerTheGreat> get yourself an MCU and some friggin' LEDs
17:57:54 <lament> a mask worn on the face is a terrible idea
17:58:00 <ehird`> maybe ebay hasd one
17:58:03 <lament> especially if you're making one yourself, no way you can make it comfortable
17:58:20 <RodgerTheGreat> it'd be easy to modify an existing one, though
17:58:27 <lament> but! You can very VERY easily program the computer to flash the monitor, and sleep close to the monitor :)
17:58:29 <ehird`> goddamnit it ebay has none!
17:58:37 <ehird`> wtf ebay has EVERYTHING!
17:58:41 <RodgerTheGreat> lament: now there's an idea
17:58:55 <ehird`> lame :(
17:59:00 <lament> and with minimal engineering, you can attach a more powerful set of lights to the computer
17:59:04 <RodgerTheGreat> hell, you could probably even make it a screensaver
17:59:06 <lament> and put them on the sides of your bed
17:59:19 <lament> and have the computer flash them at say 6:30
17:59:46 <lament> if you sleep alone, this could actually be worthwhile
18:00:05 <ehird`> i think i'll go with trying to pick up a novadreamer
18:00:13 <ehird`> i can wear some goggle-like-things
18:00:24 <ehird`> and being able to push a button to make the horrid flashing stop in a dream would be doubleplusgood
18:00:27 <RodgerTheGreat> if you spend a sizable amount of your time on IRC, it's safe to say you sleep alone.
18:00:31 <Sgeo> on dareyourmind.net :
18:00:33 <Sgeo> You solved 1 challenge (1% solved).
18:00:34 <lament> dude, it's a 3-line program and on the plus side you don't have to wear a stupid mask
18:00:34 <Sgeo> You're ranked number 1506/2844.
18:01:28 <lament> AND you could adjust it to your personal tastes (the duration, the strength, the colors of the flashing, etc)
18:02:00 <ehird`> lament: PROBLEM - when i sleep, the computer sleeps (= turned off)
18:02:16 <ehird`> because computer is noisy and computer likes to make me awake with noise.
18:02:18 <ehird`> :p
18:02:24 <RodgerTheGreat> http://www.sparkfun.com/commerce/product_info.php?products_id=666 <- get one of these puppies and use it to control whatever lights you want from a computer or as a freestanding device
18:03:24 <lament> 1) if you can't sleep because the computer is noisy, i'll see how you sleep with goggles on your face; 2) your PC sucks 3) there're extension cables that can allow you to move the computer the fuck away and keep the monitor close by
18:05:16 <ehird`> i am aware of 2
18:05:22 <ehird`> i also have an imac.
18:05:31 <ehird`> but it is too far away
18:05:35 <ehird`> from the bed.
18:05:46 <ehird`> also to 1: you don't quite realize the distance-noise ratio
18:05:55 <ehird`> it is like a personal hurricane
18:06:46 <lament> ehird`: like i said, extension cables exist
18:06:53 <lament> and you can buy one for five bucks for your monitor
18:07:04 <ehird`> the layout of my room does not agree with moving the computer from where it is
18:07:06 <RodgerTheGreat> this is why I highly value quiet computers
18:07:28 <lament> ehird`: use the imac. Connect a monitor with an extension cable.
18:07:50 <lament> and yes, this is why i got a mac mini :)
18:07:59 * RodgerTheGreat high-fives lament 
18:08:23 <RodgerTheGreat> I loved my mini, until one of my roommate's friends spilled a liter of water on it.
18:08:28 <ehird`> seriously getting a novadreamer would be far less hassle and also wouldn't consistently flash at 6:30 all the time :p
18:08:39 <ehird`> RodgerTheGreat: "oops"
18:08:45 <lament> RodgerTheGreat: and then you stopped loving it? Truly love is fleeting...
18:08:53 <RodgerTheGreat> yeah, I'm still extremely bitter about it
18:09:01 <RodgerTheGreat> lament: I'm no necrophiliac
18:09:10 <lament> ehird`: well, good luck with that
18:09:16 <RodgerTheGreat> you can't love dead things, just respect them and feel nostalgic.
18:09:41 <lament> computers are not alive to begin with.
18:09:50 <RodgerTheGreat> It still sits in my drawer, though.
18:09:55 * ehird` rules the land near his computer with an IRON FIST!
18:10:03 <ehird`> nobody's gonna go spillin' water on my imac
18:13:21 -!- Tritonio has quit (Remote closed the connection).
18:44:13 -!- oerjan has joined.
19:13:34 <ehird`> ping
19:13:39 <oerjan> pong
19:15:32 <ehird`> ping about something
19:15:43 <oerjan> pong about nothing in particular
19:31:40 -!- oerjan has quit ("Supper").
19:44:13 <ehird`> "Is infinity computable in the first place? (Spare me. I know nothing about computers.) " what haha
19:48:43 <lament> where's that from
19:53:34 <ehird`> xkcd forums
19:54:06 <bsmntbombdood> argh
19:54:09 <ihope> It's sort of a meaningless question.
19:54:13 <bsmntbombdood> yeah
19:54:15 * pikhq stores infinity
19:55:37 <pikhq> double infinity=999999999999999999999999999/0.1;
19:56:00 <ehird`> "Sumbrimous: The quality of the ability to calculate the odds that a flaming naked man will run within 20 ft. of you at any given moment accurately. " best word ever
19:56:05 <pikhq> (note that the division operation there only is infinity with an IEEE double-precision float, not a real)
19:56:06 <ehird`> i cannot think of ONE usage acse.
19:56:07 <ehird`> *case
19:57:10 <ihope> Amazing but completely useless?
19:57:16 <pikhq> The odds are roughly comparable to the odds that you will fall through the floor, unless you can feel,hear, or see a flaming naked man in the vicinity
19:57:41 <ihope> And why are you dividing by 0.1?
19:58:02 <ehird`> ihope: that definition actually gives you IEEE double infinity.
19:58:12 <ihope> Why not just use 9999999999999999999999999990?
19:58:21 <ehird`> because that is not IEEE infinity
19:58:26 <ehird`> IEEE infinity is a "real" infinity
19:58:30 * ihope waits for 1.0 to be multiplied by 10
19:58:33 <pikhq> ihope: Dividing a really large number by a really small one generates infinity in a double.
19:58:34 <ehird`> you get X < infinity, infinity + x = infinity
19:58:35 <ehird`> etc.
19:58:49 <ihope> Why isn't that infinity if that is?
19:58:54 <pikhq> (largely because it can't store anything *meaningful*)
19:59:05 <ehird`> ihope: because all the rounding errors make that produce infinity.
19:59:18 <ehird`> really that definition is just one way to achive the specific pattern of bits that means infinity
19:59:50 <ihope> unsafeCoerce# for the win?
19:59:59 <ehird`> in C?
20:00:06 <ihope> Maybe.
20:00:53 <ehird`> my forehead says hello, "jhhtrfkjmi kij"
20:01:03 <ehird`> unsafeCoerce i have never heard of it especially not in c
20:01:24 <ihope> Mm, it's not quite a C function.
20:02:56 <ihope> (Also, I have 9.999999999999918e291.)
20:03:09 <ihope> (Are you sure it'll actually reach infinity?)
20:03:16 <ehird`> in C. yes.
20:03:28 <ihope> (Rather, Infinity, if you like.)
20:03:53 <ehird`> hmm, can a language with only one command be made turing complete?
20:04:01 <ehird`> without using 1L-like tricks where nop is highly significant
20:04:12 <ihope> Define "language with only one command".
20:04:35 <ehird`> Well, how about "Language which responds to every token the same way"
20:04:39 <ihope> A language where every program effectively consists of doing one thing repeatedly? No, I don't think so.
20:05:05 <ehird`> Tricks like the command relying on the position of the program, various complicated state, and morphing state constantly could be used.
20:05:11 <bsmntbombdood> ehird`: yes
20:05:14 <ehird`> Also, if the language was 2d.
20:05:29 <ehird`> bsmntbombdood: sweet how
20:05:36 <ihope> How would there be multiple programs?
20:05:55 <ehird`> differing program length, and if 2d also program "image structure", thing
20:06:10 <ihope> Sounds like very cheating to me.
20:06:16 <ehird`> why?
20:06:54 <bsmntbombdood> ehird`: single combinator bases
20:06:56 <ihope> Mm, if you're paying attention to the dimensions of the program, that's encoding instructions in the dimensions.
20:07:04 <ehird`> bsmntbombdood: explanation?
20:07:19 <ehird`> ihope: So.. you would say that if a Befunge variant had only one command, and yet was turing complete, it would be cheating?
20:08:00 <pikhq> TRy just the "INFINITY" macro.
20:08:38 <pikhq> Or HUGE_VAL
20:08:52 <bsmntbombdood> for example, X = \x.xKSK
20:08:59 <ihope> Eh, you can't quite make a prefix-free language with only one symbol Turing-complete.
20:09:11 <ehird`> bsmntbombdood: Error - you need a way to apply
20:09:17 <ehird`> And if you have XY application, you need parentheses.
20:09:20 <bsmntbombdood> and `<exp><exp> is applycation
20:09:29 <ehird`> ` and X = two tokens
20:09:34 <ihope> There'll be only one program... which I guess could itself be Turing-complete.
20:09:35 <ehird`> two tokens responded to differently
20:09:47 <ehird`> ihope: Err, no
20:09:49 <pikhq> ` = \xy.xy
20:09:51 <ehird`> You could have "x" and "xxxxxx"
20:09:58 <ehird`> pikhq: You need to be able to apply that.
20:10:08 <bsmntbombdood> ok, fine, encode the goedel number of your program in unary
20:10:08 <pikhq> :/
20:10:10 <ihope> "x" and "xxxxxx" can't both be programs in a prefix-free language.
20:10:15 <ehird`> Yes they can
20:10:18 <bsmntbombdood> happy?
20:10:20 <ehird`> It's like brainfuck but with one command
20:10:31 <ihope> Only if you add an EOF symbol, which makes it two.
20:10:42 <ehird`> No - not really
20:10:48 <ehird`> I'm talking about characters that form an actual program
20:10:58 <ihope> Um...
20:10:59 <bsmntbombdood> goedel(X) = 5; goedel(`ab) = 2**(goedel(a)) * 3**goedel(b)
20:11:04 <ehird`> EOF is sufficiently OS-specific that I think we can ignore it :)
20:11:07 <bsmntbombdood> ...in unary
20:11:10 <bsmntbombdood> there, one token
20:23:13 <ihope> "prefix-free"
20:23:13 <ihope> If your language is prefix-free and has only one symbol, there is only one program.
20:23:13 <bsmntbombdood> of course
20:23:13 <ehird`> ok you're just twisting my meaning
20:23:13 <ehird`> you >know< what i mean
20:23:13 <ihope> I am?
20:23:13 <ehird`> i mean one program character
20:23:13 <ehird`> not EOF or any of that
20:23:13 <ehird`> but one character that actually performs a command
20:23:13 <bsmntbombdood> ehird`: ENCODE A GOEDEL NUMBER IN UNARY
20:23:13 <ihope> Ah, so more than one symbol but only one that actually does something.
20:23:13 <ehird`> bsmntbombdood: YES I AM AWARE
20:23:13 <ehird`> ihope: *sigh* no
20:23:13 <bsmntbombdood> there's your one token language
20:23:13 <ehird`> imagine a REPL using windows dialog boxes
20:23:13 <ehird`> end of line and end of file are never used
20:23:13 <ehird`> yet, you can have only one single command
20:23:13 <ihope> ...assuming it's a prefix-free language, which is sort of not an obvious assumption.
20:23:13 <ehird`> and have every token entered into the text box before OK is clicked be the same command
20:23:13 <ihope> What's a REPL?
20:23:13 <ehird`> read eval print loop
20:23:13 <ehird`> like python's commandline
20:23:13 <ihope> Mmh.
20:23:13 <ehird`> except with, say, a windows dialog box with a Program: text box
20:23:13 <ehird`> You never get EOL or EOF in the source code, but you can have one single command
20:23:13 <ehird`> So, EOF at the end of a program file is basically platform specific and so we can ignore it
20:23:13 <ehird`> bsmntbombdood: I'm looking at more interesting possibilities, k?
20:23:13 <ehird`> i'm aware you can do that.
20:23:13 <bsmntbombdood> any other approche will  be the same
20:23:13 <ehird`> no
20:23:13 <ehird`> you could have some wacky thing like
20:23:13 <ehird`> (state, program, position) = blah blah blah blah tons of stuff here
20:23:13 <ehird`> as the one command
20:23:13 <ehird`> perhaps
20:23:13 <bsmntbombdood> wrong
20:23:13 <ehird`> perhaps, with a command like that, it could be TC
20:23:13 <ihope> foo (x:xs) = run x >> foo xs; foo [] = return ()
20:23:13 <ihope> If foo's argument type is [a] where a is a type with only a single value, foo is not TC.
20:23:13 <bsmntbombdood> what's >> ?
20:23:13 <ihope> x >> y = perform x, then perform y, returning whatever y returned
20:23:13 <ehird`> ihope: Except there'd be far more state than that
20:23:13 <ihope> Far more state than that?
20:23:13 <ihope> Er, what do you mean?
20:23:13 <ehird`> program counter, full program accessable at any time, program length information, etc
20:23:13 <ehird`> and, of course, there'd be gotos
20:23:13 <bsmntbombdood> i though haskell was referentially transparent
20:23:13 <ehird`> and everything
20:23:13 <bsmntbombdood> why would you execute something and throw the value away?
20:23:13 <ehird`> so "foo" is .. not what the interp would look like
20:23:13 <ihope> "Full program accessible at any time" makes it not fit the form of foo.
20:23:13 <ihope> Because you don't care about the value it returns.
20:23:13 <ehird`> ihope: if X is referentially transparent, throwing the value away means you did computation for no reason
20:23:13 <ehird`> ihope: And exactly
20:23:13 <ehird`> You are the one who specified the form of foo
20:23:13 <ihope> You're throwing away the return value, but still performing the action.
20:23:13 <ehird`> but in a referentially transparent language, *there are no actions*
20:23:13 <ehird`> monads require having the value in the return value too
20:23:13 <ihope> In a referentially transparent language, evaluating does not perform an action.
20:23:13 <ihope> Running might well do so.
20:23:13 <lament> where running is defined as "evaluating the entire program with the world as the argument, and then replacing the world with the result of the program" :)
20:23:19 <lament> (in the most basic case. Monads allow to do it in steps)
20:23:42 <ihope> That's one way to define running, but it assumes callCC can be implemented in the real world :-P
20:25:07 <ehird`> heh
20:26:35 <ihope> predictTheFuture = do x <- getWorld; wait; y <- getWorld; putWorld x; return y
20:49:54 <ehird`> i wonder what the weirdest numeral system we can come up with is
20:49:54 <ehird`> not the digit representation per se
20:49:54 <ehird`> but crazy set theory+some number system that is not the natural numbers, complex, real, etc.+arithmetic operations+numerals
20:49:54 <oklopol> you can easily have a tc language with just one symbol, since one number can store any finite amount of integers as factors (and also in many other ways)...
20:49:54 <oklopol> ...aaaand bsmntbombdood already said that
20:49:54 <ehird`> yes but it is cheating
20:49:54 <ehird`> because behind the scenes there is far more than one command doing the legwork
20:49:54 <oklopol> bsmntbombdood also responded to that exactly as i'd've responded had i not seen it.
20:49:54 <oklopol> it would be the same thing, basically
20:49:54 <bsmntbombdood> gah ehird`
20:49:54 <bsmntbombdood> the only way to encode data with one symbol is a number in unary
20:49:54 <ehird`> http://www.ugotgames.com/slimesports/volleyball_slime_1p.php god damnit this game is impossible
20:49:54 <ihope> You've proven it impossible?
20:49:54 <ehird`> no
20:49:54 <ehird`> but it's damn hard
20:49:54 <ehird`> :p
20:49:54 <oklokok> it's impossible because msn messenger pops up all the time.
20:49:54 <oklokok> god i hate that program
20:49:54 <oklokok> it's like computer cancer
20:50:07 <ehird`> there aren't enough internet toys. Things like that Line Rider game
20:50:09 <ehird`> games with no point
20:50:12 <ehird`> i like games with no point
20:50:29 <oklokok> line rider?
20:50:59 <ehird`> http://www.official-linerider.com/play.html
20:51:06 <ehird`> premise: little guy with sled thing
20:51:12 <ehird`> draw a track and watch him ride on it
20:51:14 <ehird`> it's addictive
20:51:46 <ehird`> some of the stuff here: http://www.official-linerider.com/movies_page.html is really impressive
20:53:55 <bsmntbombdood> arghggh
20:54:41 <bsmntbombdood> these application questions suck
20:55:06 <oklokok> ehird`: how many points have you gotten?
20:55:17 <ehird`> oklokok: on the volleball slime thing?
20:55:19 <ehird`> err - 0
20:55:23 <ehird`> i've never scored 1 point
20:56:33 <oklokok> oh
20:56:45 <oklokok> i've gotten 3
20:56:49 <oklokok> usually i get 1-2
20:56:54 <oklokok> but i'll own it soon
21:00:42 <oklokok> got 4
21:01:06 <oklokok> but i lose a lot of points because i forgot the ball starts on my head and i start moving right away...
21:02:44 <ehird`> one note on linerider: the red lines are insane
21:02:49 <ehird`> they defy the laws of physics
21:02:56 <ehird`> this makes them infinitely more fun
21:06:48 <oklokok> ehird`: i usually lose with 6-4, but my gf beat the opponent already
21:06:55 <oklokok> you suck at that game ;)
21:07:13 <ehird`> =p
21:07:18 <ehird`> there's more levels
21:07:52 <oklokok> wonder if she lied just to annoy me, since i now have to play till i win... :P
21:08:56 <bsmntbombdood> i think i will go ride my bike
21:12:56 <oklokok> level 1 clear
21:13:02 <oklokok> 6-3
21:14:12 <oklokok> okay... the level 2 guy's serves are too hard for me to return xD
21:20:03 <ehird`> do you know of any other online games like that that aren't completely boring?
21:20:05 <ehird`> most suck
21:20:37 <oklokok> have you tried tower defence games?
21:20:41 <oklokok> some are pretty decent
21:20:51 <oklokok> http://dagobah.biz/flash/CurveBall.swf
21:20:58 <oklokok> one of my personal favorites, that one
21:21:03 <oklokok> (not a tower defence )
21:21:21 <ehird`> umm how do you play this
21:21:37 <ehird`> oh
21:21:37 <ehird`> 3d pong
21:22:51 <oklokok> i've designed a 4d version of that, but i have some trouble making 4 dimensional spins realistin :)
21:22:54 <oklokok> relistic
21:22:57 <oklokok> *realistic
21:23:29 <ehird`> that 3d pong is horribly easy
21:23:29 <ehird`> and wow
21:23:30 <oklokok> that's pretty much the only 3d game the graphics of which i like
21:23:31 <ehird`> that sounds great
21:23:34 <oklokok> easy?
21:23:37 <ehird`> please, post it somewhere
21:23:37 <ehird`> and yes
21:23:38 <ehird`> easy
21:23:42 <oklokok> what level did you get to?
21:23:58 <oklokok> a monkey can get on 8, but you need some skill to get on 9th
21:24:04 <oklokok> and i haven't gotten past that
21:24:21 <ehird`> ah, so it gets hard at 8
21:24:25 <oklokok> yeah
21:24:25 <ehird`> i thought it was very boring..
21:24:30 <ehird`> (lvl 4.)
21:24:33 <oklokok> but i have a touchpad mouse...
21:24:38 <ehird`> i was hoping for.. a quicker sort of progression in hardness
21:24:48 <oklokok> 1-6 are so easy you can't tell them apart
21:24:50 <oklokok> yeah
21:25:34 <oklokok> the progression isn't nice, because the challenge it @ 8 and you have to play a lot of trivial stages to be able to retry it... not that rewarding
21:26:43 <ehird`> i hate how you don't get replenished lives
21:26:48 <ehird`> whereas the opponent does
21:26:49 <ehird`> unfair :p
21:26:59 <oklokok> i never fail before level 8 really
21:27:00 <oklokok> :)
21:27:02 <ehird`> game over on level 7, d'awww.
21:27:09 <ehird`> ok, now let's do that again..
21:28:57 <ehird`> i would very much like to see the 4d version
21:29:05 <oklokok> it's pretty awesome in my head
21:31:08 <ehird`> "Two players compete over the network and wear 3D glasses to see the games full effect."
21:31:11 <ehird`> now that's what i call 3d pong
21:31:53 <oklokok> heh
21:33:31 <oklokok> i'm doing 4th dimension with sound
21:33:47 <ehird`> sweet
21:33:49 <ehird`> what language
21:34:57 <oklokok> do you know what happens when you play two sounds simultaneously and one approaches the other in frequency?
21:35:34 <oklokok> i'm gonna use the bee effect to make it clear when to hit the ball
21:36:08 <oklokok> i'm not sure if it's called "the bee effect" in english, but it's pretty descriptive nevertheless
21:36:09 <RodgerTheGreat> could you elaborate on how that works?
21:36:58 <oklokok> basically you'll have 2 joysticks and move around in a cube using them
21:37:06 <ehird`> RodgerTheGreat: i think i understand
21:37:17 <ehird`> RodgerTheGreat: sound 1: 0, sound 2: 100
21:37:21 <ehird`> then, it goes sound 1: 1, sound 2: 99
21:37:24 <ehird`> until they are equal
21:37:26 <oklokok> (i know, one axes would be useless then)
21:37:27 <ehird`> and that is in frequency
21:37:41 <oklokok> ehird`: almost
21:37:42 <ehird`> presumably, when it's at middle point, you must hit the bat
21:37:46 <ehird`> then the rest of the slide is it going the other way
21:38:32 <Ciaran_H> Ooo. I'm playing that 3D Pong game. My first go and I made it up to level 5.
21:38:39 <oklokok> well, exactly like that, except a bit more logical, there's two frequencies, say 440 and 880 for each of the paddles, and one frequency for the ball
21:39:21 <ehird`> and the ball slides towards the paddle it is travelling towards?
21:39:22 <oklokok> so basically every object has 3d position in the cube shown with its physical location, and it's 4-dimensional "height" shown with the tune it produces
21:39:24 <ehird`> in frequency
21:39:28 <ehird`> oh
21:39:30 <ehird`> i don't like that
21:39:34 <ehird`> 4d only through sound?
21:39:35 <oklokok> why?
21:39:40 <ehird`> you really need some sort of graphical representation
21:39:47 <oklokok> well, color as well, but that's not as useful.
21:39:48 <Ciaran_H> When you know how, it gets a bit easier. I passed level easily; by putting a curve on the ball as I initially launched it, I got it pastg my opponent every time without them even managing to hit it back.
21:39:51 <ehird`> it'll be much easier to play
21:39:56 <Ciaran_H> ^passed level 4 easily
21:39:57 <ehird`> and colour is not easy to relate to another dimension
21:40:04 <Ciaran_H> ^past
21:40:06 <ehird`> try an inside/outside representation
21:40:11 <oklokok> Ciaran_H: yes, the first easy 6 ones are like that.
21:40:21 <oklokok> ehird`: huh?
21:40:23 <ehird`> oklokok: like this: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/22/Hypercube.svg
21:41:20 <ehird`> some animation examples:
21:41:23 <ehird`> single rotation - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:8-cell-simple.gif
21:41:29 <ehird`> double rotation - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Tesseract.gif
21:41:43 <ehird`> (Of course, imagine it is filled in with a translucent colour like that svg)
21:41:52 <oklokok> god that's sexy <3
21:42:02 <oklokok> but that wouldn't work.
21:42:02 <ehird`> heh
21:42:11 <oklokok> you cannot do it by location.
21:42:11 <ehird`> why not?
21:42:13 <ehird`> it would be pwnawesome
21:42:52 <oklokok> hmm... you could have the ball be where the camera is located
21:43:11 <ehird`> maybe you could have the camera "outside" of the playing field
21:43:13 <oklokok> actually no, that wouldn't work either.
21:43:20 <ehird`> and have it slightly zoom in/rotate/etc to get the best position
21:44:01 <oklokok> i don't see how a 4d->2d projection would be possible...
21:44:19 <ehird`> i've just given you three examples :)
21:44:28 <ehird`> of course, an option is to make the projection 3d
21:44:34 <ehird`> this means harder coding but easier to represent 4d
21:44:47 <ehird`> alternately, try and model it as best as you can with 2d. you won't get it perfect; but playability is key
21:45:13 <oklokok> the two last ones are the same
21:45:18 <oklokok> and the first i couldn't open
21:45:26 <ehird`> the two last ones are NOT the same
21:45:28 <ehird`> look carefully
21:45:37 <ehird`> first one - "A 3D projection of an 8-cell performing a simple rotation about a plane which bisects the figure from front-left to back-right and top to bottom."
21:45:42 <ehird`> second one - "A 3D projection of an 8-cell performing a double rotation about two orthogonal planes."
21:45:46 <oklokok> the fact the latter has a 3d-rotation included doesn't really make it different
21:45:51 <ehird`> notice how the second one is spinning in 3 dimensions as well as 4
21:45:51 <ehird`> ah, ok
21:45:56 <ehird`> try http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Hypercube.svg
21:46:00 <ehird`> that has a preview not in svg
21:46:10 <ehird`> the idea is the latter two's animation with that sort of colouring
21:46:55 <ehird`> it is worth noting that in N-dimensional pong the paddles can only move in (N - 1) dimensions
21:46:57 <oklokok> hmm... if you had the cam always be directioned at the ball, but make the cam stay still
21:47:00 <ehird`> normal pong - up and down
21:47:03 <ehird`> 3d pong - up down left right
21:47:09 <ehird`> 4d pong - up down left right forward backward
21:47:16 <ehird`> so the only thing that has to move 4 dimensionally is the ball
21:47:20 <oklokok> yes, i'm not an idiot :)
21:47:24 <ehird`> :p
21:47:50 <ehird`> and that camera idea seems good yes
21:47:52 <oklokok> anyway, with that cam thing even 3d ping pong would be almost impossible...
21:48:09 <ehird`> i
21:48:10 <ehird`> *k
21:48:31 <oklokok> of course, stupid making a 4d game without any weird 4d rotations :P
21:49:23 <ehird`> what about http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Glass_tesseract_animation.gif
21:49:30 <ehird`> that combines the shading and the animation
21:49:34 <ehird`> in double rotation
21:49:40 <ehird`> and i honestly think something like that would work fine in a game
21:49:50 <ehird`> minus all the flashy reflections and all that
21:50:37 <oklokok> oh my god... i can't take that beauty anymore
21:51:35 <ehird`> heh
21:51:37 <ehird`> it is quite nice
21:52:39 <ehird`> the ball should be a 24-cell doing double rotation: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:24-cell.gif
21:52:39 <oklokok> wish i could create graphics like that.
21:53:18 <ehird`> that's done with some sort of 3d program that can do that
21:53:20 <ehird`> not manually
21:53:32 <oklokok> yeah, so you could see in which direction it's rotating ;)
21:53:49 <ehird`> Okay:
21:53:56 <ehird`> how about graphics like 4d rubiks cube: http://www.superliminal.com/cube/mc4dswing.jar
21:53:57 <ehird`> except more packed
21:53:57 <oklokok> i know, wish i could create that nice 3d graphics with my computer
21:55:52 <ehird`> i mean, like http://www.superliminal.com/cube/mc4dswing.jar more packed, but without the 3d
21:55:59 <ehird`> a 2d analogy, kinda
21:56:47 <oklokok> only 5 ppl in the world have solved the 5-dimension rubik's cube
21:56:59 <oklokok> s/only/
21:57:39 <oklokok> there's this finnish adolescent who solves the cube with his feet in like a minute
21:57:51 <ehird`> okay, thats 5 dimensional
21:57:52 <ehird`> http://www.superliminal.com/cube/mc4dswing.jar is 4
21:57:57 <oklokok> i know
21:58:02 <oklokok> i have eyes :)
21:58:18 <ehird`> =p
22:01:30 <oklokok> blurgh, school today.
22:05:09 <ehird`> :p
22:07:34 <oklokok> hmm
22:08:00 <oklokok> can you circumvent messenger's stupid smileys if you want other ppl not to see them as well?
22:08:16 <oklokok> like a code for a *raw* ":)"
22:10:33 -!- puzzlet has joined.
22:10:50 <ehird`> nope
22:10:59 <oklokok> you sure?
22:11:06 <oklokok> that's quite... retarded
22:11:12 <oklokok> asojoaejrgoijrefg
22:11:22 <oklokok> i hate those smileys, and i want to ruin the fun for others too
22:11:26 <oklokok> :D
22:22:26 -!- puzzlet_ has quit (Success).
22:22:34 <ehird`> i wonder what the most politically correct language is
22:23:07 <ehird`> "There's a type of person known as a 'carrier'. They carry data to other people! They do not go slower depending on who you are, get paid very well, and are happy people!"
22:23:42 <oklokok> that's a bad definition
22:23:48 <oklokok> use of "you" is ambiguous
22:24:48 <ehird`> heh
22:24:51 <ehird`> is that a joke or serious? :p
22:26:13 <oklokok> i'm 100% serious.
22:26:19 <oklokok> always
22:26:21 <oklokok> really
22:26:55 <ehird`> :p
22:27:06 <ehird`> hmm. can you emulate "not" with xor, and, or?
22:28:01 <oklokok> hmm... doubt it
22:29:32 <oklokok> x|x=x, x^x=0... so you can take any composite expression of those two and reduce it into either of those
22:29:42 <oklokok> ah
22:29:43 <oklokok> sorry
22:29:49 <ehird`> ?
22:30:03 <oklokok> x^1 = !x
22:30:06 <oklokok> i'm an idiot
22:30:24 <ehird`> ahhh yes#
22:30:43 <oklokok> but... can you do it without constants
22:31:18 <oklokok> x|0=0|x=x, x^0=0^x=x, so no, you can't
22:31:41 <oklokok> (you can only make 0 and x out of ^ and |, and you can't make a 1 out of them)
22:32:01 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
22:32:57 <ehird`> i updated the yael spec
22:33:01 <ehird`> now you can do reasonable jumps with it
22:33:02 <ehird`> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Yael
22:33:30 -!- pikhq has joined.
22:33:34 <oklokok> yayl \o/
22:33:50 <ehird`> 16 opcodes, and yet you could still use it if you're good with low level stuff
22:34:06 <ehird`> ok, first person to write hello world in the new Yael wins a prize. or i'll do it :)
22:34:16 <ehird`> then, the competition for the music-producing program is back on :)
22:34:22 <ehird`> well, note-slide-producing program really.
22:34:38 <oklokok> i'm not gonna program that blindfold...
22:34:50 <ehird`> hello world is... really quite easy to do in yael.
22:35:00 <ehird`> but fine
22:35:02 <ehird`> i'll rewrite the old one :p
22:35:46 <ehird`> hmm
22:35:51 <oklokok> i'll program anything with it if someone makes an interpreter... :)
22:35:51 <ehird`> yael needs a way to access the program counter
22:35:57 <ehird`> i'll make an interpreter sometime
22:36:06 <ehird`> should the program counter be in memory or a register
22:36:06 <oklokok> then i'll do stuff.
22:36:07 <ehird`> i think memory
22:36:20 <oklokok> you got 8 registers?
22:36:31 <ehird`> yeah i guess
22:36:31 <oklokok> yeah
22:36:42 <oklokok> you could waste on for that
22:36:42 <ehird`> but the problem is
22:36:45 <ehird`> since jumping is in bits
22:36:54 <oklokok> *onew
22:36:54 <ehird`> you can't store a full program counter,
22:36:56 <oklokok> *one
22:36:59 <ehird`> in the machine
22:37:11 <oklokok> hmm really?
22:37:14 <ehird`> yes
22:37:24 <ehird`> the registers contain 1 byte
22:37:35 <oklokok> hmm... and the memory is?
22:37:35 <ehird`> the program+data can be ~255 bytes
22:37:38 <oklokok> how big
22:37:39 <ehird`> and the counter is in bits
22:37:50 <ehird`> and the memory is 8-bit-address-worth, all 1 byte
22:37:52 <oklokok> one register can then store the counter
22:38:08 <ehird`> >no< it cannot
22:38:11 <ehird`> the counter is in >bits<
22:38:17 <ehird`> but the program can be 255 >bytse<
22:38:26 <ehird`> so you can't fit it into 1 byte.
22:38:35 <oklokok> ah sorry
22:38:53 <ehird`> can you look at the spec, and tell me if the jumping semantics are reasonable?
22:38:55 <ehird`> i mean; i dunno
22:39:03 <ehird`> jumping relatively all the time might suck
22:39:41 <oklokok> it makes no sense.
22:39:44 <oklokok> 1011 AAA BBB CCC
22:39:44 <oklokok> If the value in register A equals the value in register B, jump forwards C bits.
22:40:19 <ehird`> yes it does.
22:40:20 <oklokok> "C bits" should be "N bits, where N is the number in register C"
22:40:26 <ehird`> yes; whatever
22:40:29 <ehird`> you get the idea
22:40:31 <ehird`> you know what it means
22:40:32 <oklokok> i do.
22:40:37 <ehird`> is it reasonable.
22:40:45 <oklokok> just pointer it out because i'm a mean bastard
22:40:50 <oklokok> mwahaha
22:40:54 <oklokok> *pointed
22:41:25 <ehird`> is it reasonable.
22:42:11 <oklokok> well, not really
22:42:18 <oklokok> because it's inconsistent
22:42:39 <ehird`> whuh
22:42:40 <ehird`> how come
22:43:23 <ehird`> well
22:43:30 <ehird`> is it turing complete as far as 1 byte registers allow?
22:43:35 <ehird`> (you know what i mean)
22:44:22 <oklokok> "If *the value in register A* equals *the value in register B*, jump forwards *C* bits." C bits means.. C bits, not register C's value bits
22:44:32 <oklokok> we should all speak lojban.
22:44:34 <oklokok> .D
22:44:34 <ehird`> god DAMNIT
22:44:42 <ehird`> I am >not talking< about the definition there!
22:44:48 <ehird`> I mean the >semantics as in how it actually works<
22:44:53 <ehird`> not >how i define it in natural language<
22:44:56 <oklokok> i'm just commenting on what you said earlier
22:45:09 <oklokok> as i'm not here all the time, i have a life you know, like 10 irc windows!
22:45:29 <oklokok> that's tc all right.
22:45:45 <oklokok> there should be a term for being asm-tc
22:46:07 <ehird`> like, "turing complete as far as the finite address size allows"?
22:46:12 <oklokok> heh
22:46:15 <oklokok> yeah :P
22:46:19 <ehird`> but
22:46:22 <ehird`> how can it be turing complete?
22:46:25 <ehird`> you can't use the value twice
22:46:32 <ehird`> the value can only apply to one instruction in code
22:46:50 <ehird`> after that, it jumps to something else
22:46:54 <oklokok> spof?
22:47:02 <ehird`> AND you can't access the program counter to make it work relative to the current position
22:47:09 <oklokok> hmm, i'll rethink.
22:47:24 <ehird`> the jumps are relative to the start of the jumping instruction
22:47:25 <ehird`> i.e.
22:47:46 <ehird`> BLAH(1011 | 1100)AAABBBCCCBLAH
22:47:49 <ehird`>     ^
22:48:00 <ehird`> the ^ is where "the register that C references contains 0" would jump to
22:48:16 <oklokok> you prolly have every jump have just two possible branchings, where the other one is "don't jump", in a real program written in that
22:48:27 <ehird`> ?
22:48:40 <oklokok> i'm not seeing the problem yet, let me think a while.
22:49:13 <oklokok> "(ehird`) you can't use the value twice" <<< *the value*?
22:49:21 <ehird`> argh
22:49:26 <ehird`> you can't use the same "value-in-C" twice
22:49:32 <oklokok> oh
22:49:32 <ehird`> because it will jump to a different place./
22:49:33 <oklokok> why?
22:49:40 <oklokok> eh... no
22:49:46 <ehird`> because the jumps are >RELATIVE to the start of the current instruction<
22:49:48 <oklokok> if jumping from the same line
22:49:52 <ehird`> well DUH
22:49:55 <ehird`> but jumping from elsewhere.
22:50:03 <oklokok> ...then you use a different CCC...
22:50:03 <ehird`> and you can't correct it because you can't access the program counter
22:50:22 <ehird`> but what if you have a CCC passed to you?
22:50:25 <ehird`> an address to jump to.
22:50:28 <oklokok> you precalculate those, i don't see the problem in having a different one for each jump-start-location
22:50:29 <ehird`> and you want to have it work on multiple lines
22:50:33 <ehird`> this is turing-complete-threatening i'm sure
22:51:13 <oklokok> you just need loops for tc-ness...
22:51:23 <oklokok> you don't need to be able to pass a pointer-to-code around
22:51:29 <ehird`> yes - exactly, you can have no "continue" or "break"
22:51:40 <ehird`> since you will only be able to do "next iteration of loop", at a certain instruction location
22:51:51 <oklokok> that's nice if you want continuations, but hey, no one's gonna implement aything like that anyway :)
22:51:53 <oklokok> *anything
22:51:53 <ehird`> and there is no way to correct it without simply manually subtracting the line difference
22:52:21 <ehird`> what about functions??
22:52:26 <ehird`> this will make functions almost impossible
22:52:33 <oklokok> yes.
22:52:41 <ehird`> that's bad
22:52:47 <ehird`> this isn't meant to be very very hard to use
22:54:19 <oklokok> this is exactly what happens when you don't align by bytes :)
22:56:30 <oklokok> you could have 4 bit jumps and 16 registers...
22:56:53 <oklokok> then you could have functions if you fit them close enough to their caller :)
22:57:13 <oklokok> because you could jump half the memory in one go
22:57:55 <ehird`> aligning by bytes -- boo hiss! i want small instructions
22:58:23 <ehird`> oh well, anyway
22:58:31 <ehird`> how about we'll test its usefuless with the competition:
22:58:33 <oklokok> well, you could align by 4-bits, and have only slightly bigger opcodes
22:58:34 <ehird`> have two voices A and B
22:58:40 <oklokok> as i recommendedededed
22:58:51 <ehird`> when you're going to play a note, play A's note, then B's note, then A's note, then B's note, very quickly
22:59:11 <ehird`> let A's pitch be <minimum audible> and B's be <maximum audible>
22:59:27 <ehird`> forever: play a note. decrease A's pitch, increase B's.
22:59:39 <ehird`> When A reaches the maximum and B reaches the minimum, restart the process in reverse, etc.
22:59:54 <ehird`> So, you have a slide going up...down...up...down with two voices at once, each going the opposite direction
23:00:03 <oklokok> that is easy with just looping.
23:00:07 <ehird`> yes
23:00:13 <ehird`> so write it :)
23:00:26 <oklokok> i want functions!! :)
23:00:59 <ehird`> shush this is asm territory little schemer :p
23:01:18 <oklokok> if you added the 8 registers, you'd only have a bit bigger opcodes, and the program counter would fit a register etc...
23:01:41 <oklokok> (though you'd have a limit of 128 bytes for the actual program then...)
23:04:19 <ehird`> meh
23:04:33 <ehird`> i still think the best test of the instruction set's suitibility is the music program.
23:09:01 <oklokok> 0000 000 00000000, 0000 001 11111111, 0000 002 00000001, 0000 003 xxxxxxxx, 1101 002 000, 0101 000 002, 0110 001 002, 1100 000 000 003
23:09:04 <oklokok> smth like that?
23:09:45 <oklokok> god it's hard probramming assembly in an irc window when people keep flashing the taskbar on my writing with their messengers :P
23:10:07 <sp3tt> music program?
23:11:18 <ehird`> oklokok: now find out x, and optionally write comments :p
23:11:20 <oklokok> ehird`: i don't know the spesifics of the sound output, so i didn't include delay there, but it's pretty triv, also i didn't feel like calculating the value of 003, since i'm lazy
23:11:37 <ehird`> wait what, there is no delay
23:11:39 <oklokok> i'd prolly make a macro system for that before playing more with that
23:11:44 <ehird`> the register contains the memory system which is:
23:11:46 <ehird`> err
23:11:48 <ehird`> memory address
23:11:50 <ehird`> which is, starting from it:
23:11:57 <ehird`> 0,1 = pitch
23:12:02 <ehird`> 2,3 = length
23:12:08 <ehird`> same as win32's "Beep" function.
23:12:35 <oklokok> oh, then you'd need a few lines to put those in the memory first
23:12:47 <ehird`> but.. you have to change the pitch each time
23:12:52 <oklokok> but anyway, it's a trivial isomorphy with that code
23:12:56 <ehird`> if you commented your code  i could perhaps point out where you went wrong :)
23:12:56 <oklokok> err i do.
23:13:16 <oklokok> i have 0 255 1 254 2 253 3 252 etc. progression
23:13:17 <lament> crap, now this neural net library doesn't seem to work
23:13:19 <oklokok> that wraps around
23:13:33 <pikhq> Wait. . . Are you guys devising an assembly language with output as *notes*?
23:13:45 <lament> i shove stuff into the neural net, and it always outputs 0 :(
23:13:51 <sp3tt> it should output sheet music
23:13:55 <oklokok> pikhq: there's notes and normal output
23:14:12 <pikhq> Sounds like x86 when you assume a PC speaker, then.
23:14:19 <oklokok> yes
23:14:23 <oklokok> and no
23:14:26 <oklokok> hmm
23:14:43 <oklokok> actually, no.
23:14:47 <oklokok> but close to that
23:15:38 <oklokok> hmm... okay, i don't remember x86 pc speaker spesifics... it always has *a* frequency it's using for the sounds, and you can pause it by putting 0?
23:15:44 <oklokok> is it like that
23:17:44 <ehird`> no..
23:17:49 <ehird`> it is exactly x86 speaker
23:17:56 <oklokok> oh
23:17:58 <ehird`> also.
23:18:01 <ehird`> it is not 255!
23:18:06 <oklokok> are you... sure?
23:18:07 <ehird`> please, read the info for the port!.
23:18:10 <ehird`> urghhhhhh!
23:18:12 <pikhq> It's !255?
23:18:17 <pikhq> Or ~255?
23:18:25 <sp3tt> 255! is a really big number!!
23:18:25 <ehird`> considering its semantics are identical to win32's Beep function WHICH USES THE PC SPEAKER, it might just be identical!
23:18:26 <ehird`> funny that
23:18:33 * ehird` cools off
23:18:41 <pikhq> LMAO
23:18:45 <oklokok> i somewhat feel the asm OUT in x86 doesn't lookup anything from the memory...
23:19:00 <oklokok> ehird`: beep != OUT
23:19:10 <ehird`> what do you mean, beep != OUT
23:19:11 <ehird`> oh
23:19:12 <ehird`> right
23:19:14 <ehird`> well duh
23:19:15 <ehird`> apart from that
23:19:18 <oklokok> OUT, the x86 version of that.
23:19:19 <ehird`> now please read the documentation of Yael
23:19:25 <ehird`> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Yael all of it :p
23:19:29 <ehird`> then you'll understand, the beep
23:19:35 <ehird`> because really it is quite simple
23:19:41 <ehird`> i could draw a helpful diagram?
23:19:42 <oklokok> everyone understands it, i'm just asking how it works in asm
23:19:48 <oklokok> because i don't remeeeebr
23:20:10 <ehird`> well. no
23:20:14 <ehird`> if you understood it. your code would be right :)
23:20:19 <ehird`> but you're wrapping at 256
23:20:31 <oklokok> as i said, trivial isomorphism, thus no need to change it.
23:20:39 <ehird`> oh that's great
23:20:41 <ehird`> my entry: ""
23:20:49 <ehird`> everything has a trivial isomorphism to the null program! i win!
23:21:00 <oklokok> i... rather doubt that
23:21:14 <sp3tt> isomorphism on programs?
23:21:22 <oklokok> i have the semantics right, you just need to put those values in the memory and give that memory address...
23:21:28 <oklokok> instead of the actual values
23:21:34 <oklokok> that's like 4 ops more
23:21:58 <oklokok> so you'd think i could just put them there... but no, i'm just that lazy
23:22:09 <ehird`> how about reading the Yael spec
23:22:12 <ehird`> and seeing if your program is right
23:22:15 <ehird`> because it's probably not :p
23:22:17 <oklokok> it's not.
23:23:05 <ehird`> i doubt it's a "trivial isomorphism" to the correct one either :)
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23:24:39 <oklokok> hmm
23:24:49 <oklokok> i'm quite sure i'll run out of code soace.
23:24:51 <oklokok> *space
23:26:58 <ehird`> highly unlikely
23:27:17 <ehird`> i don't know why everyone's saying "omg i'll run out of codespace
23:27:19 <ehird`> it's not happening
23:30:22 <ihope_> Everyone's saying "omg I'll run out of codespace"?
23:30:43 <ihope_> ...what is codespace?
23:31:57 <oklokok> ehird`: big or small endian?
23:32:28 <ehird`> oklokok: big-end-first :)
23:32:31 <ehird`> so.. small
23:32:37 <oklokok> no, big
23:32:40 <oklokok> that's big endian
23:33:27 <ehird`> no
23:33:28 <ehird`> that's smallendian
23:33:42 <ehird`> oh
23:33:42 <ehird`> yes
23:33:43 <ehird`> big endian
23:33:44 <ehird`> heh
23:39:23 <oklokok> http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p352621531.txt
23:40:06 <ehird`> you don't have a
23:40:10 <ehird`> "if reach limits, reverse direction"
23:40:14 <ehird`> :)
23:40:22 <oklokok> ture.
23:40:24 <ehird`> i have to go now - please send me a memoserv msg if you get it done
23:40:26 <ehird`> or put it in the topic
23:40:27 <ehird`> or something
23:40:28 <ehird`> bye! :)
23:40:30 <oklokok> err okay
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