00:00:07 <Sgeo> Seems like 128-255 would be difficult for some languages to reach..
00:00:20 <SimonRC> well they won't need to do it often
00:00:28 <SimonRC> make things odd andeven if you want instead
00:00:33 <ihope_> Then you need better compilers for those languages :-P
00:01:13 <SimonRC> odd and even is a trivial bit-rearrangement in my idea
00:03:20 <Sgeo> but..but..but..
00:04:39 * Sgeo doesn't particularly like the idea of top-level commands
00:04:42 <SimonRC> almost everything you would want is within reach of 30 characters of BF.
00:05:14 <Sgeo> But under my system, the meta stuff is all in domain 0
00:05:38 <Sgeo> Incidentally, where would custom domains go?
00:06:21 <SimonRC> you reserve some of your domains for custom domains
00:06:34 <SimonRC> I mean, they go *under* them
00:06:56 <SimonRC> since my scheme is recursive
00:09:35 <Sgeo> hmm... maybe instead of a numbering for subdomains, the domain designer can designate what would have been a function as a tree
00:10:09 <Sgeo> So that the specs for, e.g. domain 2 would state that 0x02 under domain2 leads to more functions..
00:10:15 <xor> ((lambda (x) (x x)) (lambda (self) (lambda (f) (f (lambda args (apply ((self self) f) args))))))
00:10:52 <SimonRC> that is a bit messy to decode...
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00:33:51 <Sgeo> Would having 0x00 0x00 0x00 be print NUL really be that bad?
00:34:18 <SimonRC> if you didn;t doubt you would not haveasked
00:37:31 <oerjan> if you hadn't asked you would not have doubted
00:37:41 <oerjan> and causality be damned
00:43:33 <Sgeo> Opinions: Is it ok to have Print NUL be 0x00 0x00 0x00?
00:44:10 <ihope_> Sure, as long as you don't intend on doing it a lot.
00:45:11 <SimonRC> you make 0x00 be the domain containing character printing functions...
00:45:34 <SimonRC> if you want to print out character foo safely, the 0,0,foo is guaranteed to work
00:45:57 <SimonRC> to avoid breaking cat and the likes
00:46:13 * Sgeo was going to write some BF code to always safely print a character
00:46:23 <SimonRC> to allow you to make and unbreakable cat and the likes
00:46:40 <pikhq> I like Simon's idea, though.
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01:00:08 <Sgeo> hm, 0,0,0 as print NUL, 0,0,0,N as safe-print N?
01:00:17 <Sgeo> hm, 0,0,0 as print NUL, 0,0,1,N as safe-print N?
01:00:26 <ehird`> are you STILL working on that thing
01:01:18 <Sgeo> Or maybe the safe-print will be in another domain
01:01:30 <Sgeo> I was planning a domain for things like printing as decimal..
01:02:10 * Sgeo pokes SimonRC and pikhq
01:02:46 <pikhq> Domain 0 for various output functions.
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01:03:51 <Sgeo> How about domain 2 for output functions
01:03:56 <Sgeo> domain0 should be system
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01:26:18 <Sgeo> Goodnight Tritonio
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02:37:49 <Sgeo> Good, working on PSOX
02:38:01 <RifR> Working on my forums
02:42:09 <RifR> Reading the "Joke Language" list
02:42:11 <RifR> which is awesome
02:45:23 <ihope_> Hmm, we need more people whose names consist of at least one capital letter, then at least one small letter, then at least one capital letter.
02:45:45 <ihope_> Which I really ought to say as "more people whose names match /[A-Z]+[a-z]+[A-Z]+/".
02:46:05 <ihope_> I see GregorR, RifR, SimonRC.
02:46:45 <RifR> My handle is usually RifRaf, and I happened to notice someone else here goes by the same handle... which I have never seen since the early 90s when some warez courier was using it
02:47:24 <ihope_> Occasionally I'll find a website where "ihope" is taken.
02:47:29 <ihope_> They're all big ones, though.
02:50:52 -!- bsmntbombdood has changed nick to UtF03nmaDnWhnPm9.
02:52:20 <ihope_> It's clearly just an obfuscation of "you wanna dun wit me".
02:52:30 <ihope_> What that means is beyond me.
02:55:10 -!- UtF03nmaDnWhnPm9 has changed nick to KhuUAwA7726av40w.
02:55:48 <RifR> You should just use Fish ;)
02:57:13 -!- KhuUAwA7726av40w has changed nick to bsmntbombdood.
02:58:25 <RifR> It's a IRC encryption tool
02:58:52 <ihope_> He should just encode stuff in the lengths of his sentences.
02:59:04 <ihope_> Even number of letters = 0, odd number = 1.
03:00:49 <ihope_> Oh, you want to be obvious.
03:01:03 <RifR> Who are these "field agents?"
03:01:04 <ihope_> Well, WHY don't you just use PLAINTEXT?
03:04:53 <bsmntbombdood> you might want to pay attention to my next few messages
03:06:06 * pikhq has yet to find someone with the nickname of pikhq. . .
03:06:14 <ihope_> I'll point you at this video, then: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CTVraVgzC9U
03:06:28 <ihope_> That's for being lazy, you big lazy-head!
03:06:28 <pikhq> Also, I propose that we use rot26
03:06:49 <ihope_> I propose that we call that cipher by its canonical name, rot0.
03:07:37 <ihope_> Listen to smalin's version. It's pretty good.
03:08:01 <bsmntbombdood> and why are the keys on that organ moving by themselves?
03:08:09 <ihope_> They're supposed to, I guess.
03:09:15 <pikhq> bsmntbombdood: No, no, no. . .
03:09:23 <pikhq> GregorR? What a nerd.
03:11:02 <ihope_> Pff, a video that's not Toccata and Fugue in D minor.
03:14:05 <pikhq> Pft, the revolution will kill the TV.
03:14:24 <bsmntbombdood> i have to write a letter to a pencil company telling them how great their pencils are
03:14:26 <pikhq> We, the GNU People, are the revolution.
03:14:33 <pikhq> bsmntbombdood: WTF?!?
03:14:47 <ihope_> Odd thing to have to do.
03:15:03 <ihope_> Odd thing to have to do for English class.
03:15:11 * Sgeo goes to write the spec for the new version of PSOX
03:15:15 <pikhq> I hate your Englilsh teacher already.
03:15:21 <ihope_> What's that have to do with symbolism and messages?
03:16:10 <oerjan> bsmntbombdood: how would it be if you buried heavy doses of sarcasm about how anachronistic pencils are?
03:16:30 <pikhq> I've got a better idea.
03:16:36 <ihope_> Extremely subtle doses of sarcasm.
03:17:11 <pikhq> Write to them asking how they feel about destroying forests in the name of anachronism and nostalgia.
03:17:34 <ihope_> What's wrong with destroying forests?
03:18:23 * pikhq takes a picture of his hippy self
03:19:10 <pikhq> I was kinda kidding; don't exactly have a digital camera handy.
03:22:19 <pikhq> You need a beard & long hair.
03:25:22 * Sgeo pokes the new http://sgeo.diagonalfish.net/esoteric/psox.txt
03:26:21 * Sgeo pokes pikhq and SimonRC
03:26:29 <ihope_> Sgeo: what do you do if you want to output lots of NUL?
03:26:47 <Sgeo> Do lots of 0x00 0x00 0x00..
03:27:02 <ihope_> That's a third as efficient as it could be.
03:27:48 <pikhq> The idea is "sane API", not "world's most efficient one".
03:27:59 <pikhq> NUL as an escape, to me, is sane.
03:28:51 <ihope_> Allowing the escape to be set isn't that hard, is it>
03:30:24 <Sgeo> ..I guess not..
03:30:45 <Sgeo> other than needing to change the documentation a bit, ofc
03:30:59 <Sgeo> But is there real demand for it?
03:37:07 <ihope_> "It is quite possible that I had only thought I felt warmer. I suggest that a better test would be to shave half a person's beard off, but not tell them which half." http://mudhead.uottawa.ca/~pete/beard.html
03:37:12 <ihope_> Indeed, I'm sure that'll work wonders.
03:37:50 <oerjan> darn you beat me to it
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03:40:47 <oerjan> i am not sure i believe that 6 weeks after picture...
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03:55:40 <pikhq> main()<% printf((char<::>)<%'C',' ','i','s',' ','i','n','s','a','n','e','??/n',0%>);%>
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03:57:45 <pikhq> Combined with using an array literal format for a C string.
04:06:54 * Sgeo works on the specs for Domain 0x02
04:08:55 * Sgeo suddenly realizes that his longnum format has no negative number support
04:10:25 * Sgeo adds in a quick&cheap way to support negative numbers
04:10:35 <Sgeo> "The indicator 0x02 can only be used as the first indicator, and means that a data byte follows, and the number is negative."
04:16:36 <Sgeo> http://sgeo.diagonalfish.net/esoteric/psox.txthttp://sgeo.diagonalfish.net/esoteric/psox.txt updated
04:16:38 <Sgeo> http://sgeo.diagonalfish.net/esoteric/psox.txt
04:18:14 <Sgeo> http://sgeo.diagonalfish.net/esoteric/psox.txt updated! http://sgeo.diagonalfish.net/esoteric/psox-io-utils.txt added!
04:21:13 <GregorR> plz for puts newlines cuz bad interps kthx
04:28:43 <GregorR> Well, that was helpful, but not what I meant at all :
04:29:58 <Sgeo> Couldn't you just use 10 to print a newline?
04:30:18 <GregorR> I mean, all requests and responses should end with an ignored newline.
04:30:42 <GregorR> Since most interpreters based on C will find they have buffered stdin/stdout.
04:30:52 * pikhq gets t3h uberbored, looks through #esoteric logs
04:31:15 * GregorR takes pikhq's uberbored and turns it into ... AN UBERBOARD
04:32:19 <Sgeo> buffered stdout
04:33:10 <GregorR> Sgeo: int main() { int i; printf("Oh noes!"); for (i = 0; i <= 100000000; i++) {} printf("\n"); return 0; }
04:33:21 <GregorR> Sgeo: It won't print that "Oh noes!" until after the wait.
04:33:28 <GregorR> Sgeo: Because it's buffered on newlines.
04:35:34 * Sgeo doesn't know how to fix that
04:35:50 <GregorR> Simple: Require ignored newlines on all your commands.
04:36:23 * pikhq searches for his first entrance to #esoteric
04:36:27 <GregorR> It's easy to fix it in the interpreter, but probably more interpreters for esoteric languages are broken than not.
04:37:56 <pikhq> http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/06.07.18 Gots it. (well, fine. First words, not first entrance.)
04:38:42 <Sgeo> Are there interpreters that require Windows newlines?
04:38:55 * lament wonders what is the first thing in the logs
04:39:51 <GregorR> Sgeo: IIRC, every C on Windows I've heard of will flush on \n anyway.
04:40:13 <GregorR> Sgeo: Especially since most treat that as a UNIX newline in output anyway :)
04:40:49 <lament> oh wow, the channel was... pretty quiet back then :)
04:41:21 <pikhq> Still is on some days.
04:41:54 <lament> 16:57:05 --- log: started esoteric/03.01.17
04:41:54 <lament> 16:57:05 --- join: clog (nef@bespin.org) joined #esoteric
04:41:54 <lament> 16:57:05 --- topic: 'Om this channel is not dead hum! Om this channel is not dead hum! Om this channel is not dead hum!'
04:46:18 <lament> SamB and exarkun used to come here...
04:47:50 <lament> except he was on #python backt hen
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05:49:05 <pikhq> Allow me to introduce. . . PEBBLE. http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/06.09.03 :p
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12:56:52 <Figs> brainfuck interpreters are a lot simpler than I was making them
12:57:25 <Figs> I feel like an idiot
12:57:56 <Figs> still, at 44 lines, I've made it a bit bloated
12:58:01 <Figs> I can do better
13:08:02 <Figs> what's the fastest way to left-shift by 9999 in brainfuck?
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13:09:57 <Figs> any idea how to leftshift by 9999 in brainfuck?
13:10:06 <Figs> (like < * 9999)
13:10:19 <Figs> without actually typing that o.o
13:20:57 <SimonRC> If you have "walking" facilities available (and you should) you can use those.
13:21:45 <Figs> it's very plain brainfuck
13:21:49 <Figs> since I wrote it myself
13:22:01 <SimonRC> You put gaps in-between your data, then use these to keep track of where you are on the tape
13:22:09 <Figs> I just wanted to exploit something peculiar to my implimentation so I could write a quine :P
13:23:43 <Figs> basically the input to the program is 9999 bytes away from the actual memory :P
13:23:54 <Figs> so I could (in theory) have self-rewriting brainfuck
13:24:35 <Figs> it'd be easier I guess if I'd put it the other way around
13:25:30 <Figs> not sure about that though
13:26:23 <Figs> char input[9999*(2+sizeof(char*))],*index_=input,*bfptr=index_+9999,
13:26:23 <Figs> **stack=(char**)(input+2*9999); <- is this portable?
13:26:47 <Figs> I'd think it should be
13:29:05 <pikhq> char input[9999*(2+sizeof(char*))],*bfptr=index+9999,**stack=&(input+2*9999);
13:29:42 <Figs> I'm reinterpreting the memory
13:29:54 <pikhq> char input[9999*(2+sizeof(char*))],*bfptr=&index[9999],**stack=&&input[2*9999];
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15:18:45 <Figs> I just wrote a brainfuck program that modified itself :P
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15:19:21 <Figs> not portable, ohhh so not portable :D
15:19:43 <Figs> I just wrote a bf program that modifies itself because of the way my buffers line up :P
15:20:07 <Figs> it's not very pretty though :'(
15:22:18 <Figs> I should go to bed
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18:40:47 <bsmntbombdood> if my fingers are on the wrong keys and i don't know it, i type wrong
18:41:04 <bsmntbombdood> but if i purposely put my fingers on the wrong keys, they correct themselves
18:42:49 <oklopol> they move on the right keys after a few presses even if i'm not looking at the screen
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18:55:13 <bsmntbombdood> our education maps need to help US americans with south africa and the iraq?!?!?!!
19:02:29 <ehird`> bsmntbombdood: oh my god i puked up retardsauce
19:02:37 <ehird`> i think that video is why
19:02:49 <ehird`> all the idiocy in the world building up... and then it just had to come out.
19:03:26 <oklopol> bsmntbombdood: she's not really like that, but that would be a fun gf
19:03:41 <oklopol> i could play with an idiot all day long
19:04:08 <oklopol> i would laugh a lot though, so i'm pretty sure she couldn't stand me.
19:12:45 <bsmntbombdood> http://www.mindfully.org/Farm/2003/Everything-Is-Illegal1esp03.htm
19:13:19 <oklopol> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oDcHdIvKQBU&NR=1 <<< i was thinking "comma" :)
19:14:11 <oklopol> i'm pretty sure i've developed some sort of dyslexia
19:14:44 <oklopol> how late can you get that?
19:14:56 <oklopol> and can you catch it from a friend?
19:16:41 <oklopol> that's wouldn't exactly be "dyslexia", "stupedia"?
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19:28:53 <bsmntbombdood> a colon isn't commonly used to introduce a list of items
19:33:46 <oklopol> i don't think that either, but more often than a comma :)
19:35:24 <bsmntbombdood> "star wars is based on a true story. true or false" "true."
19:37:09 <bsmntbombdood> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fJuNgBkloFE&mode=related&search=
19:42:24 <oklopol> i might make a finnish one someday
19:42:31 <oklopol> pretty stupid ppl here too
19:43:16 <oklopol> i might actually believe a vid like that was true if i had made it myself
19:44:49 <ehird`> bsmntbombdood: ..."true"?!
19:44:57 <ehird`> bsmntbombdood: is it a faked video or something i haven't watched it
19:45:37 <oklopol> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8AbXR4fbhOQ&NR=1 <<< i wouldn't have known what a "surge protector" is
19:45:52 <oklopol> i would've gotten that right of course, still :P
19:46:00 <oklopol> unexpected surges of water
19:47:47 <oklopol> so great watching ppl be stupid, i don't understand how everyone finds it so disgusting
19:48:16 <ehird`> "what is... the united kingdom"
19:50:37 <bsmntbombdood> a surge protector protects from surges, that's all you can say without more information
19:51:14 <oklopol> well, natural language is often like that, but do many people buy anything but ones for electric surges?
19:51:29 <oklopol> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w_mkwB9ayK4 <<< i don't know what currency ireland uses :\
19:51:40 <oklopol> i could make a vid like that from myself
19:57:55 <oklopol> guess that was enough for one day
20:00:36 <ehird`> an irc room/where messages are haiku/yes, interesting
20:02:14 <oklopol> i cannot say anything on that channel.
20:03:37 <ehird`> syllables, okay/in haiku, five and then/seven, indeed
20:04:35 <oklopol> haiku sounds so finnish it stands out from your texts as a big wtf
20:05:09 <oklopol> because i have a hard time interpreting a sentence with multiple languages in it
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21:11:34 <GregorR> oklopol: What's read(SELECT * FROM statements WHERE languages > 1).difficulty?
21:15:44 <bsmntbombdood> embedding a language, as a string, into another language? wtf?
21:16:41 <ehird`> bsmntbombdood: lightweight sql-eliminators ftw
21:17:33 <ehird`> aka database abstraction layers
21:18:27 <oklopol> GregorR: that's a personal weirdity of mine
21:18:41 <ehird`> select("statements", where=[x|x.languages > 1])
21:19:22 <ehird`> select("statements", where=cond("languages > 1"))
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21:24:55 <SimonRC> How nice of Google to put all their tech talks online.
21:25:40 <SimonRC> heh: "three-napkins protocol"
21:26:22 <SimonRC> they said to try re-applying in 6monthd
21:26:48 <SimonRC> I have other good-looking offers though
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21:30:01 <lament> at first i thought you're about to interview a bunch of hot candidates
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21:43:33 <SimonRC> pikhq and oerjan joined at the same second
21:43:55 <oklopol> but i'm pretty sure it was planned
21:44:05 <oklopol> oerjan and pikhq: you're not fooling anyone
21:44:07 * SimonRC forgets which people are close IRL
21:44:29 <oerjan> i don't think pikhq is on the same continent as me
21:45:11 <oklopol> pikhq is american, oerjan is norwegian
21:45:16 <oklopol> SimonRC is... american too (?)
21:45:40 <SimonRC> "209-248-125-179.falconbroadband.net"
21:46:08 <SimonRC> pikhq = "209-248-125-179.falconbroadband.net"
21:46:23 <oerjan> lament: too late to fool me with that
21:46:36 <oerjan> unless you have fooled me a lot before
21:46:44 <oklopol> falconbroadband.net <<< doesn't really tell me the country :\
21:46:52 <lament> i'm mexican starting tomorrow
21:47:06 <oerjan> oklopol: you might get a hint by visiting their website, perhaps
21:47:27 <lament> ni siquiera hablo ingles
21:47:53 <oklopol> yes... i could also read the whole esoteric logs or trick cia into hacking his home country for me
21:48:09 <oklopol> i mean, who has the time to open a browser these days
21:48:20 <SimonRC> "Falcon Broadband, Inc. was started in 2003 in Colorado Springs, CO. We are a locally owned and operated company."
21:48:51 <oerjan> oklopol: i think there may be a list of which ip's are in which country
21:49:12 <SimonRC> there are a few websites that do that
21:49:23 <SimonRC> also, the ietf provide lists on their website
21:49:54 <SimonRC> they list the middlemen they give address ranges to, and include a web address where you can ask the middle-men for the details
21:50:01 <oklopol> so i was right about everyone except pikhq?
21:50:16 <oklopol> so i was right about everyone except SimonRC?
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21:50:28 <SimonRC> "<oklopol> SimonRC is... american too (?)" <--- yup, ish
21:50:35 <SimonRC> I mean, yup, you got it wrong
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21:50:59 <SimonRC> oklopol: what part of ".co.uk" did you not understand
21:51:11 <SimonRC> "21:49:14 -!- ehird` [n=ehird@user-514f618c.l4.c3.dsl.pol.co.uk] has joined #esoteric"
21:51:55 <oklopol> i understand it, i don't read it though
21:53:43 <oerjan> he only understands it when spoken aloud!
21:53:56 <oklopol> i haven't had a client that shows host @ join/quit, so haven't learned to look at that yet...
21:54:08 <oklopol> whoissing is like googling, who has the time?
21:55:11 <lament> which client do you use?
21:55:42 <oerjan> lament is too lazy to do /ctcp oklopol VERSION
21:56:06 <lament> of course, i'm mexican
21:56:13 <oklopol> lament: best client i've seen yet, you can point me towards a better one, if you know any
21:56:33 <oklopol> i wanna be a mexican too :\
21:56:45 <oklopol> i could be mexican tomorrow?
21:57:47 <oklopol> umm... okloXoY, please fill in those two to be mexican
21:58:29 <oklopol> i thought oklomex first, but i just can't be non-oCCoCoC
21:58:54 <oerjan> mexican words sometimes contain tl
21:59:44 <oklopol> hmm... i was thinking more like a 3-letter word CoC that is something stereotypically mexican :)
22:00:02 <oklopol> i'm pretty sure there's a lot of options...
22:00:21 * oerjan really feels unqualified for that question
22:01:42 -!- oklopol has changed nick to okloMeX.
22:02:03 <okloMeX> i don't know why that X is capitalized, but i kinda like it
22:02:22 -!- okloMeX has changed nick to okloMex.
22:02:44 <okloMex> i think this is the extent of my mexicanness for today
22:03:23 <okloMex> lament: better clients have you to mention?
22:03:55 <lament> personally i use irssi
22:04:03 <lament> but it probably doesn't play with windows very well
22:04:19 <okloMex> it does, and i also use unix
22:04:27 <okloMex> but i don't like it at all
22:04:47 <okloMex> prolly because i'm too lazy to learn all the commands
22:05:06 <oerjan> you want something point and click?
22:05:10 <okloMex> does it have a view where i don't have to remember which channels are behind which numbers?
22:05:17 <okloMex> no, but i want something look and see.
22:05:35 <okloMex> SimonRC: also has "e", i need "o" for it to be better than this...
22:05:39 -!- okloMex has changed nick to okloTeX.
22:05:49 <okloTeX> guess variation is nice though
22:05:55 <lament> okloTeX: get the chanact.pl script
22:06:16 <oerjan> i use irssi, but it could have done with a modern help system
22:06:18 <SimonRC> Oklo as in the nuclear reactors?
22:06:22 <okloTeX> i don't see why people put mirc down though, there's nothing wrong with it imo
22:07:40 <oerjan> after oklopol mentioned it, i believe he chose the name because of the keyboard layout
22:07:43 <okloTeX> Oklopol is a conworld of me and a few friend's.... that was pretty long, ay?
22:07:56 <okloTeX> i didn't, that was an accident actually
22:08:13 <okloTeX> i hate stuff where my hands aren't balanced
22:08:32 <okloTeX> so something liek lskdjf would'we been nicer actually
22:10:34 <SimonRC> or maybe conworlds.info (plug plug)
22:10:42 <okloTeX> actually the story of the actual word "oklopol" is a lot longer, but it's not very interesting
22:10:55 <okloTeX> umm... i'm not really anywhere :<
22:11:03 -!- jix__ has quit ("CommandQ").
22:11:16 <okloTeX> somewhat, in finnish form.
22:12:04 <okloTeX> the actual world in detail doesn't exist in written form really
22:12:14 <okloTeX> just some stories about it
22:12:33 <SimonRC> wherefrom got you the term "conworld"?
22:13:14 <okloTeX> when you first mentioned these... things
22:13:21 <okloTeX> the ones you're obsessed with
22:13:53 <okloTeX> the superclever dragon-like creatures whose name i think starts with a K
22:14:17 * oerjan is just showing off his memory abilities
22:15:01 <okloTeX> i have a pretty amazing memory when it comes to stuff i actually memorize, i just don't do that automatically for pretty much anything
22:15:34 <okloTeX> "amazing", most people are amazed by 10 digits of pi :P
22:16:06 * oerjan knows 15, though he memorized them
22:16:35 <okloTeX> rounding seems wrong when talking about memorizing digits...
22:17:08 <okloTeX> i didn't even remember the *first* digits of e before i actually memorized 2.71
22:17:11 <SimonRC> 18,446,744,073,709,551,616
22:17:29 -!- ehird` has joined.
22:17:32 <okloTeX> i had no idea it started with "2" even though i'd used it about 163 times
22:17:57 <okloTeX> 18,446,744,073,709,551,616 <<< ?
22:18:32 <SimonRC> I can remember that a round peg fits into a square hole better than the other way round up until approx dimension 5.16
22:18:57 <okloTeX> i've been thinking of starting memorizing stuff as a hobby, i memorize pretty fast, i just never do it :|
22:18:57 <SimonRC> I can remember skew's number: 10^10^10^34
22:19:07 <okloTeX> like capitals, that's a one night job
22:19:14 <okloTeX> but i've just never done it
22:19:20 <ehird`> SimonRC: what happens after 5.16
22:19:35 <SimonRC> capitals are insufficiently geeky
22:19:46 <SimonRC> ehird`: it's the other way round
22:20:17 <ehird`> SimonRC: yeah. but why
22:20:31 <okloTeX> i don't care about geeky really, would just be nice to train the brain
22:20:48 <okloTeX> but yeah, it's *good* if it's geeky
22:20:57 <ehird`> okloTeX: are you like a new-age LaTeX replacement
22:21:06 <SimonRC> I find obsession and reciting to be helpful
22:21:22 <ehird`> SimonRC: i can't visualize dimensions >3 ;/
22:22:06 <okloTeX> i like memorizing just by reading, the visual peg system just makes it too easy...
22:22:26 <lament> i can visualize extra dimensions by tacking attributes on points in 3d
22:22:35 <okloTeX> that one book i was reading...
22:22:39 <lament> but then i can't "rotate" a visualized object
22:22:44 <lament> between the dimensions ;(
22:23:54 <okloTeX> i'm pretty sure you can learn to visualize 4d
22:24:22 <SimonRC> Is there much to training memory other than practice and clever techniques?
22:25:00 <okloTeX> using the visual association technique, at least i could memorize 50 objects in order on second try
22:25:15 <okloTeX> 50 is more impressive, let's go with that.
22:25:21 <okloTeX> (may have even been 20...)
22:25:25 <bsmntbombdood> easy to visualize 4d by looking at the 3d projection
22:25:46 <SimonRC> I recall a memorisation question in some quiz; I boosted my score by pairing up the objects to be memorised
22:26:40 <okloTeX> when you get good at it, you can memorize a deck of cards in 10 minutes
22:26:55 <SimonRC> okloTeX: better: memorising abcdefgh... by doing (a,b) (b,c) (c,d) (d,e) (...
22:27:00 <okloTeX> that's what the book said was how fast an average guy does it with the technique
22:27:30 <SimonRC> there are some card-shuffling devices that are vulnerable to memorising the preceding order
22:27:35 <oerjan> SimonRC: won't that break if a letter is repeated?
22:27:42 <okloTeX> eh... no, but i think 10 minutes is good for a stunt you learn in one night...
22:27:46 <SimonRC> oerjan: we are memorising a SET
22:28:04 <okloTeX> oerjan: it doesn't, the human memory also has it's own tricks...
22:28:22 <SimonRC> e.g. randomly dealing onto the top and bottom of 10 piles will create 20 runs
22:28:40 <okloTeX> if there are multiple occurrances, you remember them as exceptions, usually better than the rest
22:28:44 <SimonRC> the later ones are semi-predictable if ou konw the original orer of the cards and the cards already passed
22:28:46 <ehird`> i hope the brain is superturing
22:28:53 <ehird`> "THIS THOUGHT PROCESS WILL ALWAYS HALT!"
22:29:03 <okloTeX> unless there are many clashes, in which case just change your system a bit
22:29:03 <SimonRC> ehird`: it isn't supertring
22:29:18 <ehird`> SimonRC: WHY I WANT IT TO BE.
22:29:24 <SimonRC> actually, the brain isn;t a proof system
22:30:25 <okloTeX> i never read the book through or actually learned the techniques well... wish i did that some day...
22:30:50 <SimonRC> okloTeX: and to think that my gut churned with envy when you started talking about memorisation
22:30:53 <okloTeX> How To Develop A Super-Power Memory By Harry Lorayne-Book.pdf
22:31:11 <SimonRC> "Harry Lorayne-Book.pdf" is an unusual name
22:31:46 <SimonRC> I do suffer form terrible envy sometimes.
22:31:59 <okloTeX> me too, luckily i'm usually the best in any group :)
22:32:06 <okloTeX> but i'll kill you all soon.
22:32:19 <ehird`> my brain IS turing complete damnit
22:34:02 -!- Figs has joined.
22:34:18 <ehird`> This thought process will always halt: BOIOIOIOOING
22:34:22 <okloTeX> watching kyle xz actually was what made me interested in that book again
22:34:58 -!- Figs has left (?).
22:38:16 <SimonRC> okloTeX: no, I bet I suffer from worst envy than you
22:38:43 <SimonRC> I sometimes feel slightly sick from them
22:39:12 <ehird`> my envy is superturing
22:40:11 <okloTeX> i often have an unbelievable feeling of failior, envy doesn't really get me down
22:40:41 <SimonRC> Q: What is the different between a user and woman? / A: When a user says "yes" they mean "no".
22:40:51 <SimonRC> I dispair at my on laziness
22:40:52 <okloTeX> i mean, i hallusinate a bit sometimes etc.
22:41:17 <GregorR> ehird`: I can trivially prove that your brain is not TC. Every volume has a maximum data density. Your brain has a volume. Therefore, your brain has a maximum amount of data it can store. QED.
22:41:18 <SimonRC> you fail so badly that you hallucinate?!
22:41:41 <okloTeX> i get a strong feeling of self-hatred and i fall into trance of some sort
22:41:47 <okloTeX> i get that for other things as well
22:41:55 <okloTeX> sometimes when i'm programming intensely too
22:42:11 <SimonRC> are they nice hallucinations?
22:42:24 <okloTeX> you know, writing a program, look up and can't really even see the room
22:42:45 <okloTeX> not really like man-walk-in-room kind
22:42:54 <SimonRC> GregorR: actaully the storage limit is proportinal to surface area, ISTR, for a spherical shape.
22:42:55 <okloTeX> i just get hazy vision, and voices in my head
22:43:24 <okloTeX> GregorR: nothing says it can't expand if necessary.
22:43:25 <SimonRC> I lose track of time though
22:43:30 <okloTeX> umm... it's a bit hard to explain
22:43:47 <okloTeX> like everything is moving a bit too fast
22:44:14 <okloTeX> even stationary objects seem to be moving
22:44:24 <okloTeX> and they have small gliders going around them
22:44:41 <GregorR> (I was going to say that :P )
22:44:45 <okloTeX> i haven't had that for a long time
22:44:56 <ehird`> okloTeX: are you sure you weren't just taking illegal substances? :p
22:45:03 <okloTeX> wish i did, i hate being sane
22:45:09 * SimonRC curses people with superior hacking powers to himself.
22:45:12 <okloTeX> ehird`: i've never gotten my hands on any
22:45:49 <okloTeX> SimonRC: i always escape that feeling with "i'm just 18"
22:45:56 <okloTeX> won't work for long, though
22:46:10 <okloTeX> 18 is actually too much, i thought i'd be a genius by now :P
22:46:32 <oerjan> GregorR: er, you're blind?
22:46:36 <GregorR> okloTeX: You don't "become" a genius, genius is about intelligence, not knowledge.
22:46:41 <SimonRC> well, I have occasionally had a strange feeling when walking after a long computer session (esp. AoE2) where the world feels like a crystal-clear simulation.
22:46:44 * ehird` curses people with brains
22:46:48 <okloTeX> GregorR: intelligence can be learned
22:47:12 <ehird`> okloTeX: "I'll be a genius when I'm 72!"
22:47:25 <SimonRC> COLON MINUS OPENING-PARENTHESIS
22:47:39 <GregorR> okloTeX: It's pretty well established that intelligence is just about constant. You can learn to get a higher IQ, but that's because any form of testing of intelligence is imperfect.
22:47:46 <ehird`> COLON OBJECT BULLSHIT OBJECT LANGUAGE
22:48:18 <SimonRC> There are XML-parsing libraries for COBOL.
22:48:40 <GregorR> I'm probably just bullshitting, but that's what I doooooooooooooo :)
22:48:51 <GregorR> SimonRC: That makes my brain hurt.
22:48:55 <okloTeX> GregorR: i've heard that too
22:49:20 <ehird`> there's a WEBAPP FRAMEWORK for cobol
22:49:36 <okloTeX> but 1) i don't entirely believe it and 2) you can differentiate between whether something is knowledge or just plain cleverness
22:49:43 <SimonRC> I have said it before and I say it again: COBOL is unsurpassed in the field of defining punched-card layouts.
22:49:56 <ehird`> SimonRC: it's an artform
22:50:04 <okloTeX> like oerjan who seems to get everything, then when i'm at the point of bursting from admiring, he tells me that was from memory
22:50:34 -!- RedDak has quit (Remote closed the connection).
22:50:36 <ehird`> @ "hello ; you have done very well have a promotion"
22:50:42 <ehird`> ; "oh wow! what is it to?"
22:51:00 <okloTeX> s/from memory/something he read somewhere
22:51:40 <SimonRC> OTOH, if a Haskell hacker got it into their heads to write a punched-card-layout-specifiying library, they would wipe the floor with the COBOL people.
22:51:53 <SimonRC> http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3733345136856180693
22:52:33 <oerjan> okloTeX: perhaps cleverness is just being able to quickly recall the necessary bits you need...
22:53:10 <oerjan> of course you need to have understood the original bits.
22:53:13 <okloTeX> oerjan: exactly what i tried to say
22:53:45 <GregorR> cleverness = intelligence / recall delay :)
22:53:47 <okloTeX> bsmntbombdood: yes, but those combining techniques can be learned as well
22:54:13 <SimonRC> Paull Graham on intelligence: http://paulgraham.com/wisdom.html
22:54:41 <GregorR> bsmntbombdood: Well, intelligence in any form is pretty well hindered without knowledge :)
22:55:52 <ehird`> By the way, 2 + 2 != 5.
22:57:08 <okloTeX> bsmntbombdood: you blow my mind!
22:57:30 <oerjan> ehird`: you and your modulus 11 arithmetic!
23:00:53 <ehird`> Also, 42 is actually nin.
23:06:48 <bsmntbombdood> "Most of our educational traditions aim at wisdom."
23:07:09 <oerjan> no one said they had _good_ aim :D
23:07:09 -!- sebbu2 has quit ("@+").
23:07:46 <bsmntbombdood> because traditional learning does focus on making the jack of all trades (wisdom, according to him)
23:14:40 -!- ihope_ has joined.
23:19:03 <lament> bsmntbombdood: isn't that what he said?
23:19:54 <lament> i don't understand your last four lines, you seem to contradict yourself.
23:21:54 <bsmntbombdood> he says traditional education promotes wisdom. i say traditional education promotes the jack of all trades. i say jack of all trades is not wise. his definition is wrong
23:24:34 <lament> i agree with his definition
23:25:26 <lament> what do you find wrong with it, and how would you change it?
23:25:27 <bsmntbombdood> a wise person knows what to do in moral matters, not academic ones
23:26:24 <lament> isn't that exactly what he addresses in the fourth paragraph?
23:28:51 <lament> "Some say wisdom and intelligence apply to different types of problems—wisdom to human problems and intelligence to abstract ones."
23:29:12 <lament> and then he immediately explains why that isn't true.
23:31:00 <bsmntbombdood> "for example, the wisdom of the engineer who knows certain structures are less prone to failure than others."
23:31:25 <ehird`> G(^G)G <-- I wonder how big this is
23:32:32 <lament> bsmntbombdood: do you see no difference between "education promotes wisdom" and "every single aspect of wisdom is taught in schools"?
23:32:46 <lament> bsmntbombdood: hint: he says the first of those things, but not the second.