00:01:02 <calamari> # handle esolang input requests
00:02:02 <Sgeo> I meant how would I hook something up to the esolang input requests?
00:02:57 -!- jix has quit ("CommandQ").
00:03:31 <calamari> well, let's see.. is it required to know that the esolang wants input?
00:04:52 <calamari> perhaps your pesoix just supplies output to the esolangs input when it has some available.
00:04:53 <Sgeo> Unless I make the changes in the spec..
00:06:03 <calamari> I think I have a little I/O diagram in there
00:06:58 <Sgeo> Let's suppose '.' is some PSOX request that returns stuff
00:07:13 <Sgeo> How is PSOX supposed to tell the difference between ',.' and '.,'
00:07:29 <Sgeo> One would get one thing, the other would get something else
00:09:12 <Sgeo> Push comes to shove, see http://sgeo.diagonalfish.net/esoteric/psox.txt
00:09:18 <Sgeo> Under Pseudodomains
00:09:40 <Sgeo> That's only if I can't determine when an input requests is being made, or when the size of the stdin buffer goes down
00:09:48 <pikhq> Obviously, you need an explicit get_stdin() function.
00:10:08 <pikhq> I've been thinking about it a while, and that's the only sane way to get it done.
00:10:18 <Sgeo> You mean like in the current specs (with the PSOX input function?)
00:10:35 <Sgeo> pikhq, is what's in the psox.txt file now sane?
00:10:48 <Sgeo> Under Pseudodomains
00:12:10 <pikhq> Also, I now see how I'd implement the PEBBLE pass.
00:12:27 <Sgeo> Will your modified input thing be able to get rid of the ending newline?
00:12:38 <Sgeo> (for fixed-byte requests)
00:13:13 <pikhq> No; the PEBBLE "input" command only accepts one byte of input.
00:13:47 <Sgeo> So the substitutuonary input will read in one byte, then will it be able to discard the newline?
00:14:07 <pikhq> You know, the newline bit would still be tricky.
00:14:29 <Sgeo> Without it, on interps. that require newlines, there might be deadlocks
00:14:30 <pikhq> It'd be much, much easier (maybe even possible) if the newline wasn't output.
00:16:02 <pikhq> Still a useful API, just hard to get to work with PEBBLE.
00:16:57 * Sgeo doesn't see a way to remove the newline
00:19:44 <Sgeo> pikhq, is it workable with the newline?
00:21:15 <pikhq> For raw Brainfuck, sure, just not for PEBBLE. . .
00:21:50 <Sgeo> There's no way it can be taken out unless it runs on interpreters that don't need newlines or something
00:22:22 <pikhq> 0x00 0x02 0x09 0x0A: Returns a single char from stdin.
00:24:08 <Sgeo> It would cause deadlock on some interpreters
00:24:45 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good night").
00:24:46 <Sgeo> Suppose I requested a character like that, then read in
00:24:55 <Sgeo> ',' is blocking, so I wait
00:25:07 <Sgeo> but the interp doesn't send it until it gets the newline 0x0A
00:25:19 <Sgeo> But that's not going to come because the BF prog isn't requesting it
00:25:31 <Sgeo> esolang interpreter
00:25:34 <pikhq> Which interp? PSOX interpreter? Esolang interpreter?
00:26:05 <pikhq> I don't think that's how it works.
00:27:07 <pikhq> A lot of esolang interpreters use buffered input, which may work *somewhat* like that when called from a shell. . .
00:27:42 <pikhq> But you can just flush the stream going to the esolang interpreter, and the ',' will stop blocking.
00:28:03 <Sgeo> Are you _sure_?
00:28:06 <pikhq> (it just so happens that outputting 0x0A also flushs a stream)
00:28:29 * pikhq pokes GregorR, too. Tell us if we're idiots.
00:35:32 <Sgeo> GregorR, you there?
00:40:22 <GregorR> I'm confused by the above statements.
00:40:53 <GregorR> If you have a pipe to some other program, and that other program is buffering, you can't force it to take all your input, only it can.
00:41:13 <Sgeo> GregorR, and are there interpreters that will take it in only after a newline?
00:41:18 <Sgeo> *esolang interpreters
00:41:27 <GregorR> Well, it's not as likely to do that on input as on output.
00:41:58 <Sgeo> Are there some that do?
00:42:44 <GregorR> I'm muddling in my head exactly what happens in various situations here ...
00:43:48 <GregorR> I don't /think/ that fread buffer. fgets() always waits for a newline or EOF, regardless of the input source, but it's unlikely that that would be used.
00:43:51 <Sgeo> very off topic, GregorR don't get derailed
00:44:13 <Sgeo> http://esoteric.sange.fi/brainfuck/bf-source/prog/hanoi.bf
00:44:21 <Sgeo> >< and <> found
00:44:27 <pikhq> Sgeo: It's generated.
00:44:44 <pikhq> Also, that poorly generated code is part of the impetus for PEBBLE in the first place. ;)
00:44:45 <Sgeo> Plus arbitrary [-] at the beginning..
00:44:48 <GregorR> If fread doesn't buffer, and stdin is a pipe, then you just have to make sure you've forced the pipe not to buffer the other way.
00:45:04 <Sgeo> GregorR, 'buffer the other way'?
00:45:23 <GregorR> The PSOX interpreter would have to make sure it's not buffering the output back over the pipe.
00:45:42 <GregorR> That is to say: The buffering problem is primarily on writing.
00:46:06 <Sgeo> Ok, so remove the 0x0A requirement on returned things?
00:46:18 <Sgeo> *things returned from PSOX functions?
00:46:55 <Sgeo> Extraneous 0x0A's sent to BF programs == not fun'
00:47:00 <GregorR> It can if the PSOX interpreter is poorly written.
00:47:17 <GregorR> So I'd write big fat warnings about buffering into the docs :)
00:47:21 <GregorR> Other than that, shouldn't hurt.
00:47:52 -!- ehird` has quit.
00:48:01 * Sgeo needs to eat now
00:48:08 * Sgeo will modify the specs after he eats
00:48:19 <pikhq> Sgeo: Allow me to provide one recommendation for you. . . Believe me, math functions would help a lot with Brainfuck.
01:02:18 <pikhq> bsmntbombdood: Well aware.
01:14:16 <Sgeo> pikhq, what domain would they go into?
01:14:37 <Sgeo> Which would be renamed from I/O Utils to.. "Utils"?
01:15:03 <Sgeo> pikhq, and should the functions just accept and return longnums?
01:16:17 <pikhq> Sgeo: It'd also be nice to just do 8-bit nums via PSOX rather than raw Brainfuck.
01:16:47 <Sgeo> Well, any 8-bit num is just 0x01 byte 0x00
01:16:58 <Sgeo> But I guess I can make single-byte versions..
01:17:52 <pikhq> But it wouldn't be a wrapping 8-bit that way.
01:18:13 * Sgeo was wondering how overflows should be handled..
01:18:18 <Sgeo> and what about negative numbers?
01:18:31 <Sgeo> Status code byte?
01:18:48 <Sgeo> Should I have a separate domain for math from the Simple I/O domain?
01:18:53 <Sgeo> Or one "Utils"
01:19:08 <ihope> Overflows don't happen in Galois fields.
01:19:17 <pikhq> 0x02 at the start of a longnum indicating that it's negative?
01:19:18 <Sgeo> ..? Galois fields?
01:19:32 <Sgeo> pikhq, yes, but for the single-byte functions..
01:19:42 <ihope> Number systems with finite numbers of numbers.
01:19:58 <ihope> (That happen to be fields.)
01:20:04 <ihope> Like the integers modulo 7.
01:20:40 <Sgeo> We're dealing with integers mod 256, I think
01:21:41 <pikhq> Assume that you're dealing with unsigned integers.
01:21:59 <Sgeo> So what happens when something requests 1 - 2?
01:22:24 <ihope> Modulo 256, 1 - 2 = 255.
01:22:29 <ihope> Though I suggest a carry bit :-P
01:24:07 <pikhq> That's the exact behavior of an unsigned char on my system. ;)
01:24:37 <ihope> 1 - 2 gives 255 and sets the carry bit to... 1, I guess.
01:24:57 <pikhq> And, since the reason for these functions is to be easier-to-use equivalents of an 8-bit Brainfuck's mod 256 math operators, carry bits don't make much sense.
01:25:16 <ihope> Or maybe 1 - 2 is the same as 1 + -2, and evaluating -2 at all ones the carry bit.
01:25:17 <Sgeo> do status bytes make sense?
01:25:41 <Sgeo> 0x01 if everything's ok, 0x00 if overflow in one direction or the other?
01:28:15 <ihope> I find doing it the other way around slightly more elegant.
01:28:43 <ihope> 1 for wrap, 0 for no wrap.
01:28:44 <Sgeo> But in BF, '['
01:29:04 * ihope hands Sgeo a potion of holy water
01:29:05 <Sgeo> But in BF, '[' is a sort of "if nonzero"
01:29:07 <ihope> #dip your enter key in this.
01:30:24 <pikhq> Well, at least in PEBBLE's addvar macro, I have the ability to throw that stuff away.
01:32:42 <Sgeo> We're sticking with the input function thingy?
01:33:08 <Sgeo> aka giving up on piping?
01:33:12 <Sgeo> er, the problem
01:34:58 <Sgeo> hm, it looks like I never wrote in the specs that functions return a mandatory 0x0A
01:36:10 -!- calamari has quit ("Leaving").
01:37:10 <Sgeo> "If an attempt is made to map a longname onto an occupied shortname,"
01:37:15 <Sgeo> What should be next?
01:37:27 <Sgeo> Should I have it fail, or replace the old one?
01:37:38 <Sgeo> pikhq, comments?
01:37:51 <ihope> Fail if there's a way to make it replace the old one; replace the old one if there's a way to put it back.
01:38:41 <Sgeo> Way to put it back: Do the thing that got the original there in the first place
01:38:52 <Sgeo> Incidentally, there will be no status code for that function
01:40:53 <Sgeo> pikhq, agree or disagree?
01:41:56 * Sgeo puts "replace" in there
01:42:17 <Sgeo> What does "Fail if there's a way to make it replace the old one" mean?
01:44:43 <ihope> What I mean is to make sure that the option you go with can easily simulate the other one.
01:45:11 <ihope> With no arbitrary overhead, preferably.
01:45:27 <Sgeo> I mean, the client must have put the original there anyway, so it can replace i
01:45:43 <Sgeo> So "replace", since there will be no explicit replace function
01:52:40 <pikhq> Sgeo: Why not have an explicit remove function, though?
01:52:49 -!- Figs has joined.
01:52:54 <Figs> !bf ++++++++++[>+++++++<-]>++++++.---.+++++.+++++++.+++.
01:54:02 <Figs> the C version was cooler...
01:55:05 <Sgeo> pikhq, it's unneeded?
01:55:21 <pikhq> Sgeo: Hmm. You've got a point there.
01:55:40 <pikhq> I'd say that replacing it wouldn't violate the law of least surprise.
01:57:15 <Sgeo> Should I bother including stuff for strings that can contain NULs?
01:59:04 <pikhq> I thought that much had already been discussed.
01:59:27 <Sgeo> It's not in the specs yet
01:59:30 * Sgeo will put it in
02:01:31 <Sgeo> "RStrings are like NUL-terminated strings except that they can contain NULs.
02:01:31 <Sgeo> 0x01 escapes a 0x00, so that "0x01 0x00" resolves to "0x00". 0x01 also escapes 0x01,
02:01:31 <Sgeo> so "0x01 0x00" resolves to "0x01". A "0x01" followed by anything else removes the 0x01."
02:02:01 <Sgeo> the last bit causes 0x01 to be like a "safe escape"
02:02:31 <Sgeo> ..and also makes Longstrings valid as RStrings..
02:05:19 * Sgeo pokes ihope and pikhq
02:05:28 <ihope> I have been poked!
02:06:11 * Sgeo was thinking of XStrings as something that could contain a Longstring, RString, or NUL-terminated string
02:06:19 <Sgeo> But all Longstrings are RStrings..
02:06:40 <ihope> Sounds complicated.
02:07:22 <Sgeo> Maybe this: PSOX functions that deal with stuff with NULs should accept RStrings, and return Longstrings..
02:07:36 <Figs> I didn't solve all your problems yesterday? :'( I'm sorry
02:10:04 <Sgeo> Check out the new http://sgeo.diagonalfish.net/esoteric/psox.txt .. look under Longstrings and RStrings
02:11:17 <Sgeo> Is having most functions return Longstrings good for PEBBLE?
02:11:30 <Sgeo> erm, most that need data with embedded NUL's
02:13:50 <ihope> Loop N: Read a byte. If it's 0, output N. Otherwise, read N-1 more bytes and loop the concatenation of the first byte and the rest of the bytes.
02:14:38 <ihope> Essentially, a number is represented by the number of bytes in the number, followed by the number itself.
02:14:47 <pikhq> Given that nothing in PEBBLE even assumes a *string*, the format of a longstring wouldn't matter much; anything assuming a string would be added for the sake of PSOX.
02:15:04 <ihope> "The number of bytes" is a number in this format, while "the number itself" is just a number.
02:15:10 <ihope> All this is terminated with a 0.
02:15:50 <Sgeo> ihope, that isn't good for BF and it can only provide a finite amount of numbers anyway..
02:15:59 <Sgeo> I've thought about the number problem before..
02:16:09 <ihope> What do you mean, it can only provide a finite amount of numbers?
02:16:32 <Sgeo> The number itself can only be 256 bytes
02:16:55 <Sgeo> Imean, unless I'm understanding you incorrectly..
02:17:10 <ihope> The number of bytes is given as a number in this format, not as a byte.
02:17:29 <Sgeo> um.. recursive?
02:17:37 <ihope> Yes, it is recursive.
02:17:53 <ihope> Essentially, it's SADOL's number system, minus the commas in front and plus a 0 on the end.
02:18:08 <Sgeo> My longnum format is nice and simple and readable easily by BF
02:18:17 <ihope> Indeed, that's very true.
02:18:57 <Sgeo> Incidentally, with the HTTP domain, it won't use longnums for HTTP status codes..
02:19:25 <Sgeo> eg. 404 would be 0x04 0x04
02:19:32 <Sgeo> 500 would be 0x05 0x00
02:20:47 <Sgeo> Since HTTP status codes like 404 are understood like 4|04
02:21:43 <Sgeo> Any comments on strings?
02:22:06 <Sgeo> and the input function was updated
02:22:25 <Sgeo> Time to write an example for the new PSOX?
02:28:40 <Figs> what is 0x4 0xFF then?
02:29:15 <Figs> 4 times final fantasy! :P
02:35:12 <Sgeo> http://sgeo.diagonalfish.net/esoteric/psox-new-cat.b
02:35:34 * Sgeo vaguely hopes he didn't make a mistake
02:38:22 * Sgeo pokes ihope, Figs, and pikhq
02:41:06 <Sgeo> Note the PSOX example
02:41:19 <Figs> did you realize that your name contains: pi hoe?
02:41:50 <Figs> (this is, of course, @ihope)
02:42:15 <ihope> Oh pie! I'm a pi hoe!
02:43:26 <Figs> reminds me of reddit enumerating the fibonacci #s
02:43:48 <Figs> speaking of which, I haven't checked xkcd in a while...
02:44:55 <Figs> I should set an alarm for "13:37"
02:45:19 <Figs> Sometimes, I'm still awake at 3:14 and I say "pi time!'
02:45:33 <Figs> "4:04 -- Sleep Not Found"
02:55:47 <ihope> Indeed, the fact that stuff starts in the morning is unfortunate.
02:55:57 <ihope> Why can't they start school at 8:40 instead of 7:40?
02:56:00 <ihope> And why does it matter?
02:56:59 <ihope> Maybe all geeks suffer from DSPS.
02:57:51 <pikhq> I'd prefer to have school start at, say, 10.
02:58:51 * Sgeo 'd prefer to have school
02:58:58 <pikhq> Delayed sleep phase syndrome.
02:59:14 <ihope> Not being able to fall asleep until a certain (very late) time.
02:59:20 <ihope> At least, that's how I understand it.
02:59:29 <Figs> I don't have class till 3 on most days
02:59:44 <Figs> tues, thurs, friday though I have it at 8 :(
02:59:52 <Figs> but it's CS and Logic, so meh :P
03:00:15 <pikhq> I've got high school. :/
03:00:28 * Sgeo graduated recently :/
03:00:29 <ihope> If it's a US high school (which it isn't), I'm going to complain non-stop to my parents until we move there.
03:00:39 <ihope> Don't tell me high school starts at the same time nationwide.
03:01:08 <ihope> It's 10 PM right now. I simply don't want to sleep.
03:01:29 <bsmntbombdood> i'm always tired in the mornings and untired in the nights, no matter how much i sleep
03:01:45 <ihope> If it weren't for parents and school, I think I would indeed not fall asleep until about 4 AM.
03:02:46 <pikhq> I'd probably fall into an approximately 26 hour day.
03:03:06 <pikhq> (that being what I do when no time requirements are placed on me)
03:03:28 <ihope> Though I don't have school in the summer, my mom apparently doesn't want my sleep cycle to be hours behind that of the rest of the family.
03:04:36 <ihope> My mother's disciplinary action consists (almost?) entirely of yelling at me if she's displeased.
03:04:39 <g4lt-mordant> right because your future employer is going to care all about your sleep schedule
03:04:42 <Figs> I just graduated highschool recently :)
03:05:05 <ihope> Therefore, she has to tell me several times before I actually do something.
03:05:06 <g4lt-mordant> if you think school sucks, you ain't seen nothin yet
03:05:44 <Figs> vaccum cleaners suck. Lava is just not cool.
03:05:46 <ihope> Can I just hope I'll be able to find a job that doesn't care when I get there? :-P
03:06:00 <ihope> That lets me get there at a late time.
03:06:02 <Figs> ihope: work from home.
03:06:14 <g4lt-mordant> they don't. they ust fire you if you fail to show up when they want
03:06:18 <Figs> you have got to have a lot of disciple though
03:06:32 <Figs> I'm working from home this summer
03:06:35 <Figs> it's a pain in the ass ;P
03:06:37 <ihope> (That's how I work. Occasionally, I'll forget part of what I was going to say and say something similar but different instead.)
03:06:37 * Sgeo would go INSANE without some sort of social environment
03:06:54 <Figs> Sgeo: that's why I'm always on IRC...
03:07:03 <Sgeo> I meant face2face
03:07:10 <ihope> Discipline is something I'm sort of lacking in.
03:07:20 <g4lt-mordant> Sgeo, WFH is prfetty easy, and you get one day in house at my particular job to maintain social interaction
03:07:21 * Figs spanks himself....
03:07:34 <Figs> what fuck huh?
03:07:45 <Figs> working from home
03:07:57 <pikhq> g4lt-mordant: Working is a lot like school, except school provides you with a few hours of homework on the side.
03:08:09 <ihope> I'm probably quite lucky that I'm able to get good grades without hard work...
03:08:14 <g4lt-mordant> ...while work provides you with a lot more than a few
03:08:38 <pikhq> bsmntbombdood: True.
03:08:56 <bsmntbombdood> if people were more sensible they would say it's a waste of time
03:09:04 <ihope> The bit of math class last year concerning conic sections sort of hit me hard. I'd sort of been used to already knowing everything they teach in math class.
03:09:06 <pikhq> g4lt-mordant: I typically end up showing up at school at about 6 and get home at about 5.
03:09:11 <Figs> IT'S A WASTE OF TIME!
03:09:16 <pikhq> (largely because of rides, but still. . .)
03:09:24 <ihope> I wonder how I manage to learn things before they're taught in math class.
03:09:31 <Figs> pikhq: beats my old schedule of showing up at 7 and getting home at 7
03:09:38 <g4lt-mordant> pikhq, s/5/10/ and s/school/work/ and you might start getting the hint
03:09:41 <Figs> and then having a couple hours of homework...
03:09:53 * Sgeo read Algebra the Easy Way, Trigonometry the Easy Way, and Calculus the Easy Way
03:10:33 <Figs> I was going to bed at like 12~2 and getting up at 5...
03:10:39 <Figs> well, more like 5:40
03:10:49 <pikhq> g4lt-mordant: You're working 16 hours a day?!?
03:11:22 <pikhq> Quit, sue, stop being the corporation's bitch.
03:11:29 <ihope> So, math class doesn't teach me anything I didn't already know, Spanish class is way too easy, history class somehow manages to consist entirely of taking notes, and science class is... often redundant.
03:11:50 <ihope> Labor laws are silly.
03:12:22 <ihope> (Yes, I'm often against having opinions, but everything has to be said by somebody.)
03:12:35 <pikhq> I'll be sure to tell that to people killing themselves by working too much.
03:13:06 <ihope> Should we have laws to make up for shortcomings of the human mind?
03:13:21 <ihope> I guess that's what, say, banning recreational drugs is all about.
03:13:21 <Figs> we already do?
03:14:14 <ihope> I'm all for being able to get away from laws.
03:14:35 <g4lt-mordant> I already have this job on a 9 month plan, if what I fear appens in 9 months, I'll be quitting anyways, so it'll work itself out
03:14:45 <ihope> Assuming the world consists only of the United States, federal laws are often... yes, baaaad.
03:15:14 <ihope> Obviously, though, there are, in fact, countries other than the United States.
03:15:25 <ihope> (Is my comma density high enough yet?)
03:16:07 <Sgeo> I was working on a bot for another channel, and instead of outputting a list of nicks sensibly
03:16:17 <Sgeo> It would go like "D, e, m, o, b, o, t"
03:16:32 * pikhq would like to congratulate the US on going back to the 1800's in terms of labor practices.
03:18:49 <ihope> Have I said yet that I'm waiting for the school district density to increase a bit?
03:19:14 <g4lt-mordant> pikhq, thank India and Mexico for that. companies that had tolerable policies outsourced to india
03:19:36 <ihope> Maybe you should move to India.
03:20:08 <ihope> And it's not like we can just treat people in India worse than people in the US, not that they necessarily do.
03:20:28 <ihope> If they don't, I don't need to know that.
03:21:20 <g4lt-mordant> ihope, apparntly in my job, if a customer complains twice within the same call about their accent, it's a firing, no warning
03:21:45 * pikhq just knows that people such as g4lt-mordant are getting screwed hard by 1800's labor laws
03:23:11 <ihope> I'm thinking that the problem is that people don't have enough people that want to hire them.
03:23:38 <ihope> I don't have a mailbox full of job offers. Then again, I'm not supposed to, seeing as how I'm still in high school.
03:24:01 <ihope> I don't have a mailbox full of letters from other high schools, either.
03:24:58 <ihope> Then again, I understand that high schools aren't very aggressive about these things.
03:25:11 <pikhq> Particularly not *public* high schools. ;)
03:26:01 * bsmntbombdood is in an alternative sort of high school program this year
03:26:10 <ihope> I take it the government doesn't just say "for every satisfactory student-year, we'll give you this much money" and let school districts do whatever they want otherwise.
03:26:17 <ihope> Alternative sort of high school program?
03:27:54 <bsmntbombdood> and then 2 online classes and 2 independent studies
03:28:40 <ihope> Ooh, online classes!
03:28:51 <ihope> Does the US have any online school districts?
03:30:17 <ihope> How online do they get?
03:31:06 <bsmntbombdood> if i wanted to, i could take all my classes online, assuming they were offered
03:32:39 <Figs> someone thought I was india
03:32:48 <Figs> even though I was in the US
03:33:01 <Figs> and have no accent
03:34:35 <Figs> I don't really know what sort of accent I have
03:34:38 <Figs> but it isn't indian :P
03:35:33 * Figs moves too damned much
03:37:15 <ihope> I think I would be much more motivated to go to bed if I knew I'd be able to fall asleep.
03:39:17 <Figs> ihope: you'll be more motivated to go to bed when you're EXHAUSTED like I usually am after being up for 30 hours...
03:39:28 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined.
03:39:32 <Sgeo> Hi GreaseMonkey
03:39:39 <Figs> you won't be able to do anything for like 2 days after that
03:39:53 <Figs> it's da greasy-moneky-man! allo.
03:40:08 <Sgeo> Anything else I need to do with PSOX?
03:41:56 * Sgeo watches the chat wither away and die..
03:48:41 <Sgeo> Comments on http://sgeo.diagonalfish.net/esoteric/psox-new-cat.b ?
03:51:14 <Sgeo> pikhq, Figs, ihope, GreaseMonkey?
03:51:26 <Sgeo> comments on the example PSOX application?
03:51:31 <Figs> I don't understand it
03:51:50 <Sgeo> Figs, http://sgeo.diagonalfish.net/esoteric/psox.txt
03:52:18 <Figs> what is it supposed to *do*?
03:52:37 <Sgeo> PSOX, or the example?
03:53:05 <Sgeo> It's a cat program
03:53:13 <Sgeo> takes input and copies it to output
03:53:37 <Sgeo> PSOX is an API for languages like Brainf*** to access files and do networking stuff etc..
03:53:59 -!- bsmntbombdood has changed nick to Dave2se.
03:54:24 -!- Dave2se has changed nick to bsmntbombdood.
03:55:29 <Figs> "Members of the sect believe that to reach eternal salvation, men are supposed to have at least three wives."
03:55:35 <Figs> http://www.nytimes.com/2007/09/09/us/09polygamy.html?ex=1346990400&en=05ce6c8a4355ddff&ei=5090&partner=rssuserland&emc=rss
03:59:43 <pikhq> A branch thereof, yes.
04:02:08 <bsmntbombdood> she was wearing tight pants with "MOR MON" wrote across her ass
04:02:55 <g4lt-mordant> yeah, in that respect they have one thing good on scientologists
04:03:38 <pikhq> Mormons, like any other religion, have their complete and utter nutcases.
04:03:41 <Sgeo> Question: Is PSOX ready for 1.0?
04:03:42 <Figs> google has become evil
04:03:47 <Figs> they want to put up video ads
04:03:48 <pikhq> Scientology is composed *of* the nutcases. :p
04:03:50 <Figs> according to wired
04:04:20 <Figs> http://blog.wired.com/business/2007/09/google-discusse.html?cid=82080045
04:04:20 <g4lt-mordant> pikhq, live in SE Idaho or utah for a while, you'll realize that mormons alre all nutcase as well
04:05:02 <pikhq> g4lt-mordant: Perhaps the ones in Utah are nutcases.
04:05:29 <pikhq> (admittedly, merely judging from their theology, it does seem a tiny bit nutsy)
04:05:37 <Sgeo> My dad's being an a**hole
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05:05:18 <pikhq> You named in honor of Strong Bad's 100th email?
05:05:54 <Figs> he should see my gmail inbox...
05:06:01 <Figs> 686 at present
05:07:04 <pikhq> He's answered 175 by now.
05:08:27 <Figs> that sounds more accurate
05:25:07 <pikhq> I don't do Suns, but I'm a Homestar Runner addict. ;)
05:27:44 <ihope> What's a g4lt, though?
05:27:50 <ihope> Greater for less than?
05:29:08 <g4lt-sb100> I can't believe that conversationh has degenereated to my fucking nickname
05:30:01 <Figs> g4lt-sb100: I guess we're just out of topics?
05:30:08 <Figs> http://www.scientific.org/articles/JFS%20excerpt.htm <-- we could talk about this instead
05:30:58 * ihope ponders making the xkcd 90 joke
05:31:41 <Figs> like the ass switching?
05:31:46 <Figs> fucking-jacket? :P
05:31:51 <Figs> sweet ass-car? :P
05:32:45 <ihope> Yes, fucking nickname.
05:32:47 <ihope> "False positives can also arise due to misinterpretation of test results. One such error led to the false conviction of Timothy Durham (14, 17) . In 1993 a Tulsa Oklahoma jury convicted Durham of the rape of an 11-year-old girl. He was sentenced to 3000 years in prison."
05:33:05 <ihope> I don't think he'll actually serve that.
05:33:52 <Figs> "In 1993 a Tulsa Oklahoma jury convicted Durham of the rape of an 11-year-old girl. He was sentenced to 3000 years in prison. ... Durham presented eleven witnesses who placed him in another state at the time of the crime, but the jury rejected his alibi defense."
05:34:03 <Figs> I didn't see your quote :P
05:34:24 <Figs> he was released in 1997
05:34:29 <pikhq> Just invite immortality.
05:34:41 <ihope> So he only served a 750th of his sentence?
05:35:19 <ihope> I want to only have to serve a 750th of any jail sentences I get...
05:35:42 * Figs gives you a sentance of 750 lifetimes...
05:35:51 <Figs> you can serve 1/750 of it
05:35:59 <ihope> I wonder what the longest sentence anybody's ever gotten was.
05:36:16 <pikhq> ihope: Only 1 gives you a chance of release with good behavior, IIRC.
05:36:35 <Figs> multipe lifetimes without parole. :P
05:36:58 <ihope> Is a sentence of 3000 years actually different from a double life sentence?
05:37:29 <pikhq> (as far as I know)
05:38:24 <ihope> I wonder if anybody's ever been sentenced past the end of the universe.
05:38:47 <ihope> Chuck Norris might have served a double one of those. :-P
05:39:24 <Figs> I don't know but people have gotten 3+ lifetimes, I think
05:39:43 <Figs> (though once you get a lifetime without parole, what's the point of having more of them?)
05:40:49 <Figs> http://thelongestlistofthelongeststuffatthelongestdomainnameatlonglast.com/long45.html
05:41:00 <ihope> "Dudley Wayne Kyzer was jailed for 10,000 years by a court in Tuscaloosa, Alabama, in 1981 for murdering his wife." http://www.thatsweird.net/history5.shtml
05:41:01 <pikhq> By that point, you can only get worse with a death sentence.
05:41:51 <ihope> "In 1994 Oklahoma rapist Darron Bennalford Anderson received a 2,200-year jail sentence. When he appealed and won a new trial, he was convicted again and resentenced to more than 90 additional centuries behind bars - including 4,000 years each for rape and sodomy, 1,750 years for kidnapping, 1,000 years for burglary and robbery, and 500 years for grand larceny." http://www.thatsweird.net/history5.
05:42:20 <pikhq> Seems a bit excessive.
05:42:32 <Figs> the requested sentace against Gabtriel march grandos was 384,912
05:42:41 <Figs> but he only got 7,109
05:42:52 <Figs> "He was charged with 42,768 instances of failing to deliver letters. I think I know how we got the term 'Postal' now."
05:43:09 <pikhq> Also, wouldn't the *additional sentencing upon appeal* be a matter of double jeapordy?
05:43:33 <pikhq> Surely, an appeal by the defendant would either strike down a sentence or uphold it?
05:44:29 <g4lt-sb100> right, the new trail part is what did it. he got a neew trial, they found him guiltier if you will
05:44:54 <pikhq> And that's dual jeapordy, I feel.
05:46:19 <g4lt-sb100> and you feel something that isn't the case. if he gets a new trail, he gets a new trial, it's as if the other one never existed
05:46:25 <Figs> http://blogs.cnet.com/8301-13505_1-9773662-16.html?part=rss&tag=feed&subj=TheOpenRoad <--- BWAHAHAHAHAHA
05:46:37 <Figs> Microsoft campaign against itself :P
05:46:46 <pikhq> Welcome to the definition of dual jeapordy. . .
05:48:45 <g4lt-sb100> first thing, it's DOUBLE jeopardy, if you're going to mindlessly parade around something, at lest get the name right. second, double jeopardy means you cannot bee tried twice for the same crime, therefore accourding to your definition, the second trial should have never been granted. the defendant waived that right to get the trial in the first place
05:49:45 <pikhq> I'm arguing what I think should have happened, not what did happen. Clearly, he did get the second trial, and got screwed for it.
05:50:07 <g4lt-sb100> and the only person he has to blame is himself, since he asked for it
05:50:10 <pikhq> Rather than just having the additional trial determine if the sentence should be brought down.
05:50:42 <pikhq> (of course, if new evidence came up and he got convicted of completely new things, then that's a completely different issue)
05:51:18 <g4lt-sb100> well, there's the problem, innit? he asked for a new trial, he got one, it turned out worse. sucks tobe him
05:53:06 <Figs> wow, digg sucks
05:53:22 <Figs> I click on a link... site's totally dead
05:53:33 <Figs> and now the number of diggs has jumped by 30
05:53:33 <g4lt-sb100> claimng double jeopardy in his case is wrong, as HE asked for the second trial
05:53:56 <g4lt-sb100> Figs, it took you this long to find out? I use SU
05:54:13 <Figs> but occasionally I still look on digg
05:54:46 <Figs> I used to use SU, but they changed something in the way their toolbar works, and it stopped working right for me
05:54:51 <Figs> I don't remember what exactly
05:55:15 <Figs> I think it was just too large and I was loosing screen space
05:55:23 <Figs> (because of something they added)
05:58:34 <Figs> you know you've had too much of "web 2.0" when you start looking for the "reply" button on bash quotes >.<
06:15:14 <Figs> pseudo random number generator :P
06:15:20 <Figs> http://www.bordergatewayprotocol.net/jon/media/bush/
06:21:16 <Figs> (getupearly? now : later)();
06:21:39 <Figs> provided that now, later are function pointers, and getupearly equates to a boolean
06:22:22 <Figs> (CanSleepEnough(getuptime) ? now : later)();
06:23:38 <Figs> (timediff(curr_time+length_of_movie,getuptime)>=8.5 ? now : later)();
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06:28:57 <Figs> (!canthinkforself() ? googlelucky("potato").imagesearch().firstpage.contains(nudity) ? gotobed : stayup)();
06:35:46 <Figs> of potato nudity?
06:36:02 <Figs> nudity knows no language bounds... even potato nudity!
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07:00:39 <viciousparrots> Could someone please add 37 an 47 and tell me the answer?
07:02:52 <Figs> am I missing some trick here?
07:03:39 <Figs> I have a calculator in my command prompt :)
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13:10:26 <oklopol> (ihope) The bit of math class last year concerning conic sections sort of hit me hard. I'd sort of been used to already knowing everything they teach in math class. <<< i'm last year @ high school, and learning about the basics of integration...
13:10:31 <oklopol> never heard "conic section"
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13:21:21 <oklopol> that one really needs a calculator :P
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14:04:33 <ehird`> i see nobod yis alive =)
14:07:10 <oklopol> but i'm too tired to think :<
14:07:31 <oklopol> try simple SVO sentences and i may catch some of them.
14:09:15 <feesh> and there is always good ol' feesh
14:09:52 <oklopol> feesh? i now know 4 fishy nicks.
14:10:23 <ehird`> oklopol: maybe hard for me ;p
14:10:29 <feesh> feesh has nothing to do with fish
14:10:35 <feesh> it's actually more abouce feces
14:11:51 <oklopol> feesh is pretty fishy, no matter where it's derived :)
14:12:31 <feesh> fair does I guess :p
14:13:42 <ehird`> who is more awake than SVO-sentence level ;)
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16:18:18 * ehird` realises he uses #esoteric for a lot of "here's a technology-related idea, let's discuss it" insetad of "here's an esoteric-technology-related idea, let's discuss it"
16:18:23 <ehird`> maybe i should stop that ;p
16:18:55 <feesh> it's getting quite annoying now
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17:25:06 <oklopol> 3 hours of sleep does that sometimes
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18:57:37 <nooga> have you seen TECO ? :D
19:00:55 <nooga> http://www.catb.org/~esr/jargon/html/T/TECO.html example
19:01:07 <nooga> J <.-Z; .,(S,$ -D .)FX1 @F^B $K :L I $ G1 L>$$
19:01:48 <nooga> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Text_Editor_and_Corrector generally
19:03:04 <nooga> this is really eso
19:03:17 <nooga> and it was built to be usable editor, lol
19:03:54 <oklopol> nice, but you can get much more concise out of that much obscurity
19:04:20 <nooga> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Text_Editor_and_Corrector#Example_3
19:04:30 <nooga> just check that out
19:04:42 <nooga> looks like white noise mapped to ascii
19:08:54 <nooga> not to mention it's quite ancient
19:09:01 <ehird`> TIABRA = TIABRA is a backronymed recursive acronym
19:17:25 <ehird`> BIAB = BIAB is a backronym ;)
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19:47:34 <ihope> Recursive acronyms like RALRAA aren't arbitrary.
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20:08:40 <ehird`> Sometimes recursive acronyms like SRALSTSTCUW take some thinking to come up with.
20:09:13 <ihope> Well, WWDTMETCUW didn't take much effort to come up with.
20:09:30 <ihope> You just have to calculate them lazily.
20:09:51 <bsmntbombdood> Well, (Well, WWDTMETCUW didn't take much effort to come up with.) didn't take much effort to come up with.
20:10:05 <ehird`> To be honest, random acronyms like TBHRALTSARAA sometimes aren't random at all.
20:10:05 <bsmntbombdood> Well, (Well, (Well, WWDTMETCUW didn't take much effort to come up with.) didn't take much effort to come up with.) didn't take much effort to come up with.
20:10:30 <oklopol> i hope ihiitlaitt is the last acronym in this thread...
20:11:03 <ehird`> No, I think the recursive acronyms (like NITTRALNWNS) will never stop.
20:11:58 <ehird`> bsmntbombdood: Already taken actually, but as TIARA
20:12:53 <ihope> GIARA isn't a recursive acronym.
20:13:02 <ihope> It stands for "GPL isn't a recursive acronym".
20:13:02 <oklopol> (ehird`) Recursive RA. <<< wrong
20:13:16 <ihope> bsmntbombdood: you can hardly call that an acronym.
20:13:52 <ehird`> Another - AARR!! - recursive rendition?
20:14:22 <ehird`> Another - aargh! - recursive geometrical haystack?
20:15:03 <ehird`> Recursive acronyms, like RALRAF, are fun.
20:15:26 <ehird`> bsmntbombdood says... no, i can't be arsed
20:15:30 <oklopol> bsmntbombdood is a stick in my burrow
20:16:16 <ehird`> bsmntbombdood says "Mountain? No! To bsmntbombdood only must burrow. Deadly ogling owls die."
20:17:43 <ehird`> pikhq is kicking high quaters.
20:18:09 <oklopol> being sick may never tire bsmntbombdood, or maybe being dense opens other doors
20:18:11 <ehird`> SimonRC is moving only north, recursively - cool!
20:18:30 <oklopol> i really tried to make sense, but i just lack too much vocabulary :<
20:19:25 <ehird`> EgoBot goes on, building offtopic translations.
20:19:30 <ehird`> ^ that one's actually true
20:19:49 <ehird`> cmeme mostly eats maggots - eww
20:20:24 <ehird`> GregorR reads empowering goings-on, or readily replies.
20:20:56 <ehird`> ololobot lives only literally, overtly banning over terrain.
20:22:24 <ihope> That pair's a weird one.
20:22:30 <ehird`> ehird of unix-replacing daemons
20:22:39 <ehird`> empowering ehird of interfaces representing depth
20:23:43 <bsmntbombdood> HIRD of Unix-Replacing Daemons of Interfaces Representing Depth
20:23:55 <bsmntbombdood> HURD of Interfaces Representing Depth of Unix-Replacing Daemons of Interfaces Representing Depth
20:24:06 <bsmntbombdood> HIRD of Unix-Replacing Daemons of Interfaces Representing Depth of Unix-Replacing Daemons of Interfaces Representing Depth
20:24:20 <bsmntbombdood> HURD of Interfaces Representing Depth of Unix-Replacing Daemons of Interfaces Representing Depth of Unix-Replacing Daemons of Interfaces Representing Depth
20:24:28 <ehird`> AIEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
20:25:10 <ihope> Absolutely, I enter elephants' egregious earth-eating eruditely . . .
20:25:42 <ihope> AIEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE, I enter elephants' egregious earth-eating eruditely . . .
20:25:52 <ehird`> collaborative project idea: alphabet poem
20:25:59 <ehird`> all words start with A
20:26:28 <ehird`> hmm... Actually, alliteration angers all? :p
20:26:45 <nooga> it's really hard to design something like TECO
20:26:50 <ehird`> nooga only "OK"s graphically, also.
20:27:55 <ihope> ihope hinders operatic, paleontological expeditions?
20:29:22 <ehird`> this alphabet poem thing is actually pretty easy
20:29:29 <ehird`> here's two lines: Actually, alliteration angers all/But - bemusingly - big blasts bother
20:29:53 <ihope> Can cats categorize cations?
20:30:05 <ihope> Oops, all starting with ca(t).
20:31:15 <ehird`> Do dastardly doodles <something>?
20:31:46 <oerjan> Evidently everything esoteric enters egregiousness
20:32:36 <ehird`> we need something for <something>
20:34:11 <ehird`> Four fiddle-playing fathers? XD
20:37:30 <oklopol> Four fiddle-playing fathers fake fornication
20:38:19 <ehird`> Good - great gullible ghouls.
20:38:38 <ehird`> H must involve H2S04 ;p
20:41:20 <oerjan> H2S04 hardly helps health
20:42:48 <ehird`> nooga: Evidently everything esoteric enters egregiousness.
20:43:17 <oerjan> i think i should have said "evolves" instead of "enters" :(
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20:46:06 <nooga> i guess i'm tired or drunken, or i just don't get what are you talking about now :D
20:46:46 <ehird`> Eh, so only teabags esoteric really in cool.
20:51:08 <ihope> Kraken keys, um...
20:51:21 <ihope> Krakens're key. :-P
20:51:30 <ihope> !bf +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.
20:51:52 <tombom> !bf +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.+++++++++++++++++.
20:52:13 <nooga> !sadol !"1!sadol works?
20:52:15 <EgoBot> BDSM: Parsing: Unexpected end of file (index: 16, row: 1, col: 17)
20:52:22 <oerjan> Esoteric seems otherwise to easily run in circles
20:52:41 <EgoBot> To use an interpreter: <interpreter> <program> Note: <program> can be the actual program, an http:// URL, or a file:// URL which refers to my pseudofilesystem.
20:53:34 <nooga> ehird`: check the wiki
20:54:12 <ihope> !sadol !",213Hello, world!
20:54:29 <ihope> And what a crazy string literal ",213Hello, world! is.
20:55:30 <ihope> At least it doesn't need escapes.
20:56:41 <ehird`> i think i can make the notation crazier
20:56:59 <ehird`> let's see, ( to push a call
20:57:47 <ehird`> and ~ is "pop if the function has been given enough arguments, otherwise change X into (X <ptr>)" (:a3
20:57:47 <tombom> !sadol (7:C",228!R!C!"7822,"R:!R!"9822,"C:7(:R",228(7:C",2289"!R!:R",2287"!C!RR!C!"7822,"R:!R!"9822,"C:7(
20:57:49 <EgoBot> BDSM: Parsing: Unexpected end of file (index: 98, row: 1, col: 99)
20:58:04 <ehird`> it starts off as (<ptr>)
20:58:48 <ehird`> it changes into (<ptr> X)
20:59:56 <ehird`> that's (hello (wo) rld)
21:00:41 <ehird`> that's (((he) lo) (wo) rld)
21:02:08 <ehird`> beginning = (<ptr>) and ~ = "if list has sufficient arguments, pop from list. otherwise, change list X into (<ptr> X)" is enough to express any sexpr right?
21:08:24 <tombom> !sadol (4:C",216!"9(4:C",216!C!C!"9(4:C",216!C!C
21:08:27 <EgoBot> (4:C",216!"9(4:C",216!C!C!"9(4:C",216!C!C
21:10:38 <ehird`> @ = change to end of list
21:14:49 <ehird`> world;hello~!@2 = (! (hello world) 2)
21:15:02 * ehird` pasted http://pastie.textmate.org/private/et5hd0myxvbjmzujdydf0w
21:15:11 <ehird`> that's a damn esoteric program format ;)
21:16:08 <ehird`> im pretty sure that can handle all lists
21:19:58 <ehird`> I'm trying to represent (a b (c d) e f (g h (i j)) k) in it
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21:37:04 * SimonRC thinks that "clog logs our garbage" works better
21:38:23 <SimonRC> oh, and http://uncyclopedia.org/wiki/Alliteration
21:38:48 <SimonRC> "Alliteration articulates an artistic and alacritous approach aimed at annotating and arranging alphabetic accoutrements as alarmingly affective alignments." etc
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21:40:32 <oerjan> i insist it is infinitely improved if it includes initialism in its index
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21:41:01 <oerjan> and i do so without even looking at the page
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22:05:46 <ihope__> Why is that in my spellchecker's dictionary?
22:06:37 <ehird`> random software musing, kinda esoteric: people make games in a day, but what about 1-hour games? you find a team, and have an hour to design and implement a game xD
22:08:13 * ihope__ ponders the relation between continuation-passing style and stack-based postfix notation
22:08:42 <ihope__> Stack-based postfix notation as in "2 3 +" means "push 2; push 3; pop twice, add, and push".
22:08:52 <SimonRC> ehird`: easy, you just need 12 times as many people working on it
22:09:32 <ihope__> And, I guess, whether CPS can turn that into "+ 2 3 output".
22:09:54 <ehird`> SimonRC: seriously, people do 1-day games that are quite elaborate
22:10:01 <ehird`> SimonRC: and 7-day games that seem like they took months
22:10:16 <ehird`> SimonRC: a good game could probably be made by 3-4 people in an hour
22:10:25 <ihope__> Go is all you need! Maybe.
22:12:52 * SimonRC wonders if Go contains an NP-complete problem.
22:13:24 <oerjan> P-space complete, actually
22:13:58 <ehird`> go contains /everything/
22:13:59 <oerjan> (which is presumably even harder)
22:14:26 <ehird`> i totally don't get go
22:14:34 <ehird`> its like they tried to create an incomprehensible game
22:14:47 <ehird`> maybe they /were/ trying to create a model of computation, though, like they did
22:15:42 <SimonRC> you put down pieces and the are catured if surrounded
22:16:40 <oerjan> LOGSPACE <= NLOGSPACE <= PTIME <= NPTIME <= PSPACE, NLOGSPACE != PSPACE and all other between unknown
22:17:21 <SimonRC> ehird`: really? I never noticed in all my time playing.
22:17:44 <SimonRC> there is a little to argue about in the claiming of territory, but that's about it
22:17:45 <ehird`> well, from the rules i've seen - even the "simple" versions - its a lot more complex than that
22:18:09 <ehird`> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rules_of_Go?
22:19:59 <pikhq> SimonRC: Go may have simple rules (it's a bit more complex than you make it out to be, though), but its strategy is anything but.
22:20:12 <pikhq> It's very much an emergent game.
22:20:51 <ehird`> I would be useless at Go even if I grokked the rules I suspect
22:21:07 <SimonRC> nah, it just takes practice
22:21:21 <pikhq> I'm decent at chess, and barely even know how to *play* Go.
22:21:38 <ehird`> i'm lame at all board games
22:21:45 <SimonRC> the subtlties of Go are no worse than those of chess
22:22:08 <SimonRC> they tend to be fairly obvious, or at least the type of thing that you forget to mention because they are obvious
22:22:22 <SimonRC> like, infinite loops are bad, hence the Ko rule
22:22:37 <SimonRC> and you have to stop at some point, hence passing and seki
22:22:59 <ehird`> you're infiniteloopist
22:23:33 <SimonRC> and suicide is quite easy to remember as well
22:24:35 <SimonRC> to learn the lot, you just need a club
22:25:38 <SimonRC> you get taught the basic concepts at first, then lose dozens of games in stupid ways to learn the basic stratergy, while being taught the subtlties as they become necessary in your games
22:26:18 <SimonRC> BTW, the amount of practice is sfficient that you need a real passion for it if you are going to get high up
22:26:29 <SimonRC> and you need to be a nutter
22:28:01 <ehird`> "and suicide is quite easy to remember as well" you only need to know it once
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23:59:41 <SimonRC> actually it is spelt "*rimshot*"