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01:32:27 <importantshock> howdy
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02:29:49 <GregorR> Thoughts I've had today: An NFSM with a stack (a basic stack machine) can parse any context-free grammar.
02:29:55 <GregorR> Erm, that's 1)
02:30:13 <Robdgreat> you were feeling ambitious today, weren't you
02:30:17 <GregorR> 2) A machine of this type can go into an infinite loop.
02:30:50 <GregorR> 3) In fact, it will go into an infinite loop with any recursive grammar parsing code with bad grammar.
02:31:09 <GregorR> 4) The halting problem is solvable, but
02:31:22 <GregorR> 5) It's a HUGE EFFING PITA TO SOLVE IMPLEMENT :(
02:31:54 <GregorR> Erm
02:32:01 <GregorR> s/SOLVE // :P
02:35:47 <Robdgreat> you fail.
02:35:52 <Robdgreat> ;]
02:35:57 <Robdgreat> what's up in here
02:42:58 <GregorR> ?
02:43:12 <Robdgreat> not much activity in the channel
02:43:18 <Robdgreat> how's everyone
02:44:08 <GregorR> I'm fried from trying to figure out this NFSM+Stack stuff :P
02:44:16 <Robdgreat> ah.
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03:27:40 <RodgerTheGreat> that was fun
04:00:19 <GregorR> Yeah, solving the halting problem for an NFSM stack machine = MASSIVE pain in the arse.
04:00:29 <RodgerTheGreat> hm
04:00:30 <GregorR> Totally doable!
04:00:33 <GregorR> But MASSIVE pain.
04:00:45 <RodgerTheGreat> Non-Finite State Machine?
04:03:58 <GregorR> Nondeterministic Finite State Machine
04:04:05 <GregorR> A non-finite state machine is a Turing machine :P
04:04:26 <RodgerTheGreat> yeah, alright- that's where my confusion lied
04:08:41 <GregorR> Basically, you can make sure the machine never halts by 1) handling all non-consumptive steps simultaneously, 2) detecting loops in those steps and 3) encapsulating infinite recursion on the stack into a special "infinity" marker. When the infinity marker is popped, the state splits into two: One with the infinity marker and the remainder on the stack, one with only the remainder on the stack.
04:09:02 <RodgerTheGreat> interesting
04:09:52 <RodgerTheGreat> so, in this type of system, does it become solvable because it's possible to calculate how likely the machine is to be in a particular state?
04:10:21 <GregorR> NFSMs are interpreted by having a set of states that the machine is in the superposition of.
04:10:39 <GregorR> Once every state has either led to a dead end or consumed all of the input, you're done.
04:11:28 <RodgerTheGreat> ah, I see
04:12:02 <GregorR> You can detect loops in an FSM, since returning to a state without consuming anything is always an infinite loop.
04:14:40 <bsmntbombdood> you are talking about NPDAs, right?
04:14:48 <GregorR> No, NFSMs.
04:15:31 <GregorR> Wait!
04:15:33 <GregorR> Hahahaha
04:15:40 <GregorR> I forgot, that's what a PDA is X-D
04:15:44 <GregorR> NFSM + stack = PDA
04:15:48 <GregorR> Wow, I feel stupid now :P
04:15:54 <bsmntbombdood> no, FSM + stack = PDA
04:16:18 <GregorR> Err, right, NFSM + stack = NPDA
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04:27:20 * Sgeo should really work on PSOX
04:27:49 * GregorR should really work on Plof3
04:27:53 <Sgeo> Plof3?
04:28:02 <GregorR> The next incarnation of Plof.
04:28:13 <Sgeo> What's Plof?
04:28:57 <GregorR> http://www.codu.org/plof/
04:29:16 <GregorR> http://www.codu.org/plof/plof3.txt // current work-in-progress new spec
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05:36:04 <RodgerTheGreat> you guys might appreciate some of these..
05:36:57 <RodgerTheGreat> I've been drawing a bunch of increasingly bizarre comics for fun this evening. I present my creations for the enjoyment of anyone with the misfortune to still be awake:
05:37:01 <RodgerTheGreat> http://www.nonlogic.org/dump/images/1190259559-rootpowah.png
05:37:05 <RodgerTheGreat> http://www.nonlogic.org/dump/images/1190260876-inetargument.png
05:37:09 <RodgerTheGreat> http://www.nonlogic.org/dump/images/1190262068-rollin.png
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06:00:31 <bsmntbombdood> i lol'd
06:33:24 <RodgerTheGreat> haha
06:33:29 <RodgerTheGreat> which one?
06:33:32 <RodgerTheGreat> (s)
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10:22:36 <oklopol> www.answers.com/npda
10:24:19 <oklopol> whut?
10:24:23 <oklopol> anyway, what's that?
10:25:10 <oklopol> (kinda embarrasing looking up a word and managing to write it here instead of the url block...)
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12:53:31 <SimonRC> RodgerTheGreat: is root wearing a bandanna, or is that a /
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13:28:24 * Sgeo should work on PSOX
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16:27:40 <GregorR> $ twopipe psoxi "egobfc2m Sgeo.bf"
16:27:51 <GregorR> <Sgeo> Booting ...
16:27:55 <GregorR> Segmentation fault
16:28:17 <GregorR> Sgeo: Yeah, you SHOULD work on PSOX, but you don't.
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17:25:48 <oklopol> GregorR: can i see some plof3 code?
17:26:09 <oklopol> or do you even have the runtime parsing system ready yet?
17:26:18 <GregorR> It's not ready yet.
17:26:28 <oklopol> but
17:26:34 <GregorR> I've barely started writing anything yet :P
17:26:40 <oklopol> oh
17:27:00 <oklopol> then i daresay my oklotalk runtime parsing modification syntax might be further thought than yours :)
17:27:01 <GregorR> You can have the thirty or so lines of an NPDA implementation I've written thusfar :P
17:27:02 <oklopol> but
17:27:12 <oklopol> i'll prolly never get to implementing it so... no conflict :<<
17:27:31 <GregorR> I hear alllll these great things about oklotalk ripping me off, but I see no code.
17:27:52 <oklopol> :P
17:27:59 <GregorR> Anyway, my code is all in D, and I'm betting yours isn't, so you can't steal my code :P
17:28:15 <oklopol> i'm not gonna, all the similarities are superficial
17:28:29 <oklopol> but there are a lot of them, and i'm changing them, obviously
17:28:31 <GregorR> So, how does your runtime parsing system work?
17:28:56 <oklopol> that's the thing, your idea seems so much more coherent i don't even want to talk about mine.
17:29:05 <GregorR> Hahaha
17:29:12 <GregorR> Well, I AM brilliant.
17:29:38 <oklopol> i think you've just had time to put more thought to that, but i do admit you are brilliant.
17:30:12 <oklopol> because while that stack thing is clever, it is obvious up to the knowledge i have about it
17:30:16 <oklopol> which is very little :)
17:30:51 <oklopol> it's just you're thinking about it in implementation, the stack thing i mean, i was basically going for bnf-ish first class constructs + multilevel strings.
17:30:56 <oklopol> multilevel... hmm
17:31:08 <oklopol> meaning you would do a lot of metacoding to use the runtime parsing.
17:31:50 <oklopol> "(oklopol) then i daresay my oklotalk runtime parsing modification syntax might be further thought than yours :)" <<< this was merely to comfort me a bit, no offence to you, more to my bad luck for knowing about plof ;)
17:32:03 <GregorR> Hah
17:32:59 <GregorR> My conversation yesterday was a reiteration of this common habit of mine: 1) Completely forget about a computing topic. 2) Need said computing topic. 3) Reinvent it identically to what I pseudo-remember. 4) Bash my head into the wall when somebody say "Uh, you mean an NPDA, right?"
17:33:01 <oklopol> i'm thinking i'll really start emptying my 2-meter-long TODO list after my german + swedish exams...
17:33:19 <oklopol> hopefully we'll be seeing oklotalk and a lot of other stuff about then
17:33:39 <oklopol> or, i'll just keep talking about it, and do nothing, like i usually do.
17:34:10 <oklopol> yeah, i did some banging when i realized what PDA was, too :P
17:34:16 <bsmntbombdood> GregorR: you're writing a language in an NPDA?
17:34:24 <oklopol> parser
17:34:38 <GregorR> Plof's grammar is defined entirely at runtime.
17:34:46 <oklopol> not entirely, you liar! :P
17:34:59 <GregorR> The Plof user language's grammar is defined entirely at runtime.
17:35:10 <GregorR> The Plof stack language isn't Plof, it's the Plof stack language :P
17:35:29 <oklopol> well i guess
17:35:34 <oklopol> your mother, though!
17:35:40 <oklopol> gotta go read my germans! ->
17:37:09 <GregorR> bsmntbombdood: If that answers your questions at all :P
17:38:24 <GregorR> (Of course, compiling the grammar to an NPDA and running that is probably less efficient than compiling to an LALR parser, but eh :P )
17:39:17 <GregorR> (Of course of course, there are technically grammars that an NPDA can parse that an LALR parser can not)
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17:46:37 <oklopol> now that i've tried to read german for a few minutes == thought about that parsing thing for a while, i can safely say oklotalk will have a very different runtime parser system
17:47:11 <oklopol> ...and i'd kinda like to implement it now, but i can't :(
17:47:23 <oklopol> school is a waste
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17:49:27 <GregorR> lol
17:49:44 <GregorR> Very different from Plof or very different from what's in your head now?
17:49:54 <bsmntbombdood> school is a waste
17:50:01 <GregorR> [Oh, and don't feel bad when I implement your runtime parser as a grammar for my runtime parser]
17:50:19 <bsmntbombdood> do you have something to read about this language?
17:50:39 <GregorR> http://www.codu.org/plof/plof3.txt
18:00:59 <oklopol> GregorR: very different from anything that has an underlying stack language.
18:01:50 * GregorR imagines a runtime parser which transforms one grammar into another.
18:03:53 <oklopol> GregorR: basically, i changed the whole thing into something that not necesarily can be considered run-time parsing in the sense you use it.
18:04:26 <GregorR> Ah
18:04:29 <oklopol> but i'm not gonna explain it now, so all you need to know is i'm not ripping of your language :)
18:04:37 <GregorR> :P
18:06:32 <oklopol> *off
18:06:43 <oklopol> do correct me, that's your thing
18:06:47 <oklopol> !
18:06:50 <EgoBot> Huh?
18:06:59 <GregorR> Didn't notice it, too busy actually doing work :P
18:07:17 * oklopol stabs itself
18:10:25 <GregorR> !glass {M[m(_o)O!"Muaha"(_o)o.?]}
18:10:28 <EgoBot> Muaha
18:10:40 <oklopol> that speccity seems nice
18:10:50 <oklopol> what i got out of it
18:10:51 <GregorR> ?
18:10:55 <oklopol> *spec
18:11:25 <GregorR> The Plof3 spec?
18:11:40 <oklopol> if it says "to be completed" or anything resembling that, i don't examine it very closely
18:11:44 <oklopol> well yes
18:11:55 <oklopol> not many specs seen in the last few days :P
18:13:14 <oklopol> i'll look into it more once you have the interpreter ready, since that probably won't take long in your case
18:14:52 <GregorR> But, the Plof3 spec /does/ say "to be completed" or something like that :P
18:15:10 <GregorR> "this list is horrendously incomplete" in fact :P
18:15:34 <RodgerTheGreat> interesting how often "I'll finish this momentarily" becomes "I'll never finish this" on the internet
18:16:58 <GregorR> I find that things are EITHER completed immediately or never. There is no "within a month"
18:18:15 <RodgerTheGreat> sometimes projects defy that, but every time they slip onto the back burner there's a greater chance they'll never come back
18:23:00 <SimonRC> I never realised how crap mamalian lungs were
18:23:02 <SimonRC> http://people.eku.edu/ritchisong/birdrespiration.html
18:32:31 <oklopol> GregorR: i've gotten a lot of things implemented within a month, though usually that has meant stalling for a few weeks, then doing it in 2 hours once i already know what to write
18:32:37 <oklopol> but that's the general case, i have to admit
18:32:46 <oklopol> also, what am i doing in irc again.
18:33:14 <oklopol> and, i meant i didn't read the spec that well exactly because it said 2to be completed"
18:33:17 <oklopol> *"
18:33:52 <GregorR> Ah :P
18:34:02 <GregorR> Typing on a Commodore 64? [joke no one will get]
18:34:30 <oklopol> wait, i'll try and get that by looking at my c64 keyboard on the floor...
18:34:38 <SimonRC> GregorR: do explain
18:34:53 <GregorR> I want to see if oklopol gets it first.
18:34:56 <SimonRC> ah, yeah
18:35:23 <oklopol> umm... this can't be my c64... it doesn't say c64 innit!
18:35:35 <oklopol> okay, explain, i seem to have lost it or something :P
18:36:46 <GregorR> Shift+2 on a C64 = "
18:37:31 <oklopol> oh
18:37:42 <oklopol> i didn't know it's ever anywhere else
18:37:48 <oklopol> 2"2"
18:37:52 <GregorR> >_O
18:37:55 <GregorR> WTF?
18:37:59 <GregorR> What keyboard layout is this?
18:38:05 <oklopol> öäöäöäåäöööåöäåöåäö
18:38:27 <oklopol> teh finnish one
18:38:35 <SimonRC> Um, shift+2 is a " here too
18:38:43 <GregorR> O_O
18:38:45 <oklopol> hah, GregorR, you're a freak! :)
18:38:49 * GregorR 's brain melts.
18:39:01 <GregorR> SimonRC: Aren't you in Britain?
18:39:05 <SimonRC> yes
18:39:07 * SimonRC makes dinner
18:39:25 <GregorR> Why the hell would a British keyboard differ from an American keyboard? >_O
18:39:35 <oklopol> but... anyway... this is an outrage! where's my c64 :<<
18:39:46 <oklopol> i guess you might not know that.
18:40:10 <GregorR> Why the hell would a British keyboard differ from an American keyboard? O_<
18:41:09 <GregorR> Well anyway, I'm right because America > you 8-D
18:42:18 <oklopol> i'd say we all lose for using qwerty
18:42:49 <oklopol> that's a brave assumption though, since i don't actually know you're using it
18:43:16 <oklopol> (and i guess it doesn't have much to do with this :P)
18:44:28 <oklopol> das Band -> die Bänder, der Band -> die Bände, die Band -> die Bands
18:44:42 <oklopol> ASDFuck with these germans
18:45:08 <oklopol> don't they understand gender is a confusing concept as it is!
18:45:24 <GregorR> ?
18:45:36 * GregorR <3 genderless languages :P
18:46:24 <oklopol> yeah, finnish ftw
18:48:09 <GregorR> English FTW
18:48:39 <GregorR> Literally. We Lingua Franca'd your arse :P
18:50:57 <oklopol> not that much
18:51:38 <GregorR> What language are we speaking? QED.
18:51:44 <oklopol> if you compare with languages that can imitate english with lesser modifications to the root words
18:52:47 <oklopol> i don't see how the fact a language is used less kills the language itself
18:53:00 <GregorR> I never claimed to have killed your language ...
18:53:09 <oklopol> i may have misinterpreter your fancy words
18:53:11 <oklopol> :P
18:53:15 <oklopol> *misinterpreted
18:53:23 <GregorR> Lingua franca = language of commerce/diplomacy/etc
18:53:27 <oklopol> i guess my ass != my language
18:53:46 <GregorR> Hahahah
18:53:56 <oklopol> the other one i speak *out of*, the other i talk *in*
18:54:01 <oklopol> *speak
18:54:15 <oklopol> there's a difference i didn't realize right away
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20:02:27 <Sgeo> <GregorR> $ twopipe psoxi "egobfc2m Sgeo.bf"
20:02:27 <Sgeo> <GregorR> <Sgeo> Booting ...
20:02:27 <Sgeo> <GregorR> Segmentation fault
20:02:41 <Sgeo> What's that supposed to be?
20:03:26 -!- sebbu has quit (Connection timed out).
20:03:40 <Sgeo> Hi ehird`
20:03:48 * Sgeo is so **** tired
20:03:48 <ehird`> hello
20:06:01 * ehird` is tired. so ****
20:06:02 <ehird`> Wait, no.
20:06:04 <ehird`> That didn't work.
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20:13:24 <Sgeo> Hi jix
20:13:29 <jix> moin
20:33:35 <Sgeo> Is the core PSOX spec done?
20:34:25 * Sgeo is incredibly tired
20:39:59 * Sgeo goes to begin implementing PSOX(!)
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21:21:26 -!- GregorR has changed nick to _D6Gregor1RFeZi.
21:22:18 <Sgeo> _D6Gregor1RFeZi, hm?
21:22:37 <_D6Gregor1RFeZi> Occasionally I get mangled in one of the D channels.
21:23:33 <Sgeo> D channels?
21:25:19 <_D6Gregor1RFeZi> Channels about the D programming language ...
21:25:47 <Sgeo> How do you get "mangled?":
21:26:36 <_D6Gregor1RFeZi> Uh, by typing /nick _D6Gregor1RFeZi :P
21:27:04 <Sgeo> Why did you do that?
21:27:22 <_D6Gregor1RFeZi> Because I was being mangled!
21:27:46 <Sgeo> ????
21:29:10 * _D6Gregor1RFeZi suggests that Sgeo look up "Name mangling" on wikipedia :P
21:30:11 <Sgeo> Why were you being mangled?
21:31:02 <_D6Gregor1RFeZi> Because I felt like it! :P
21:31:06 <Sgeo> ah
21:33:39 -!- _D6Gregor1RFeZi has changed nick to GregorR.
21:39:21 <ehird`> Sgeo: _D6Gregor1RFeZi is how D would mangle GregorR into a symbol name
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21:49:01 <importantshock> so...anyone else looked at the mediadefender source code?
21:50:03 <importantshock> i'm grepping it for naughty words
21:50:06 <importantshock> it's quite funny
21:50:24 <ehird`> heh
21:50:27 <ehird`> pastebin some samples
21:51:43 <importantshock> esoteric.pastebin.com, right?
21:51:43 <Sgeo> mediadefender?
21:51:54 <importantshock> Sgeo: Bunch of fascists bent on destroying P2P.
21:51:54 <GregorR> ?
21:52:24 * Sgeo misread taht as PSP
21:56:01 <GregorR> I love how people that are bent on destroying piracy magically become bent on destroying P2P.
21:56:01 <GregorR> The Internet is P2P people! :P
21:56:01 <bsmntbombdood> that's funny
21:56:01 <ehird`> one of the better analogies for piracy, although still flawed: "There is a machine that clones cars. Everyone has this machine, and the car companies still sell cars for lots of money. Piracy is cloning someone's car, when they give you permission to."
21:56:45 <GregorR> Manufacturers are gonna be PISSED OFF when we finally get matter replicators ^^