00:26:48 I promote obfuscated C via the bifid cipher. 00:27:02 Although it *does* suffer from a known plaintext. . . 00:33:32 -!- ehird` has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 01:12:47 -!- oklopol has quit (Connection timed out). 02:03:48 -!- cmeme has quit (Excess Flood). 02:06:16 -!- cmeme has joined. 02:19:34 Anybody have some .smv files for a portable music player they'd be willing to give me? (I'm hacking up a converter for GNU/Linux) 02:23:52 anyone able to run windows executables and has a lot of bandwidth and hard drive space and smarts? 02:24:14 Heh 02:37:45 i'm serious 02:42:30 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 03:02:34 -!- pikhq has joined. 03:26:24 -!- SF|008 has joined. 05:35:07 -!- SF|008 has quit (Connection timed out). 06:06:44 -!- immibis has joined. 06:08:35 -!- Mark__ has joined. 06:09:06 hello? 06:09:26 -!- Mark__ has quit (Client Quit). 06:09:42 -!- StapleGun_ has joined. 06:10:02 anyone here? 06:12:57 me 06:13:20 * immibis wonders why Mark/StapleGun changed his name 06:14:05 :) 06:14:14 is this irc very active? 06:15:39 clearly not ... >_> 06:18:31 Varies. 06:19:20 gg 06:21:30 -!- StapleGun_ has quit ("ChatZilla 0.9.78.1 [Firefox 2.0.0.8/2007100816]"). 06:22:35 -!- StapleGun_ has joined. 06:26:56 so u guys only tok bout esolangs here? 06:28:41 In principle, but really the conversation is just as often on something else esoteric. 06:31:46 isee 07:05:34 -!- immibis has left (?). 07:13:19 -!- g4lt has left (?). 07:42:33 -!- StapleGun_ has quit ("ChatZilla 0.9.78.1 [Firefox 2.0.0.8/2007100816]"). 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:47:36 -!- SEO_DUDE38 has quit (Remote closed the connection). 09:37:24 -!- oerjan has joined. 09:46:51 -!- StapleGun_ has joined. 09:46:59 hello 09:47:11 hello 09:47:50 how long has esolangs.org been aorund for? 09:49:08 i don't know, i've been here a year 09:49:38 oh wait 09:49:47 thought you were asking about the channel 09:51:14 the history of the main page goes back to April 2005 09:52:03 so does the brainfuck page 09:55:23 btw this is probably _the_ slowest period of day on this channel. 09:55:48 (saw your earlier question in the logs) 10:40:58 ah k 10:41:38 im working on an esoteric language as a learning experience, im trying to make the hello world example and ive confused myself 11:10:22 brb 11:20:26 hmm, what time is this channel active? 11:22:31 mostly when the americans are awake, is my impression 11:23:41 you could take a look at the logs 11:25:36 kk 11:26:12 hmm is it possible to join to a different server using chatzilla? 11:26:19 the red days are those with more activity 11:26:35 i cant seem to find the log, ive never used irc b4 11:26:37 don't know, not using it 11:26:48 http://ircbrowse.com/cdates.html?channel=esoteric 11:26:58 ty 11:26:59 it's listed in the channel topic 11:27:48 goes from dark blue to light blue to red? 11:28:06 i think so 11:28:27 cool 11:28:35 which irc do u use? 11:28:44 irssi 11:29:21 looks cool 11:30:16 is it linux based 11:30:18 ? 11:30:52 mine is running on linux 11:31:22 also, terminal-based 11:31:35 ah cool 11:31:45 u dont know wot game maker is by any chance do u? 11:32:04 "UNIX systems", says the webpage 11:32:37 not really 11:33:08 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Game_Maker 11:33:13 i assume 11:33:43 yea, id be a full time linux user if i could get game maker to run on linux ... that and company of heroes 11:34:12 heh 11:43:38 im going thx for the infos 11:43:52 cu 11:44:02 -!- StapleGun_ has quit ("ChatZilla 0.9.78.1 [Firefox 2.0.0.8/2007100816]"). 12:51:49 -!- sebbu has joined. 12:54:25 -!- oklopo1 has joined. 12:55:12 -!- oklopo1 has changed nick to oklopol. 13:30:50 -!- oerjan has quit ("Lunch"). 13:40:32 -!- SEO_DUDE38 has joined. 14:15:23 -!- Tritonio has joined. 15:58:02 -!- Sgeo has joined. 16:35:29 hey, folks 16:36:45 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 16:44:08 i has a lenny 16:50:28 -!- sebbu has quit (Connection timed out). 17:09:34 -!- jix has joined. 17:24:54 -!- ehird1 has joined. 18:35:50 hi 18:35:56 hi 18:36:00 hi 18:37:06 hi 18:37:12 oink.cd got pwnt 18:37:29 I just heard elsenet 18:37:42 * SimonRC reads: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/tees/7057812.stm 18:37:43 and i just got an account a few days ago :( 18:38:00 looks like a torrent site? i've never heard of it 18:38:03 (ex-torrent site.) 18:38:16 TORRENTS ARE EVIL 18:38:26 * oklopol has to leave! -> 18:38:30 i'm not even sure oklopol is joking... 18:38:35 you can never be sure with him 18:39:12 I really need to stop reading "British Phonographic Industry" as "British Pornographic Industry". 18:39:26 me too :P 18:39:28 and how is free music distributing "lucrative"? 18:39:38 the site was exclusive 18:39:51 british phornographic industry 18:39:59 invite only, etc 18:58:04 I just had a crazy, crazy idea. 18:58:08 A Forth system in Brainfuck. 18:58:36 Actually, the memory is laid out perfect for forth stacks and dictionaries - you just have a slab of infinite memory (let's assume an infinite memory implementation) to do stuff with 18:58:44 And the execution model isn't hard... Hey, that could work. 19:00:17 uh? 19:00:37 bsmntbombdood: maybe if you said something more than uh? i could give you an answer 19:01:00 ooops 19:03:45 ;) 19:11:13 any comments? ;) 19:13:40 -!- Tritonio has quit (Connection timed out). 19:26:51 :) 19:29:04 -!- oerjan has joined. 19:39:45 http://craphound.com/overclocked/Cory_Doctorow_-_Overclocked_-_When_Sysadmins_Ruled_the_Earth.html <- I thought this was a fantastic read 19:45:46 I'd highly recommend it to anyone with half an hour or so to blow 19:47:05 back 19:47:30 RodgerTheGreat: any thoughts on a Forth written in brainfuck? :) 19:48:38 hm 19:49:08 the memory layout is good for it, the core execution could be done with some minimal work 19:49:10 sounds difficult, but possible. I'll bet we could benefit from using gregor's approach to building a stack in BF 19:49:13 * SimonRC goes away. 19:49:13 and i think it shouldn't be too hard 19:49:21 RodgerTheGreat: well -- a forth system isn't hard 19:49:44 I've built some stack-based languages myself- I'm familiar 19:49:48 * SimonRC has thought about Forth in BF too... 19:49:55 still, if you look at e.g. JonesForth 19:50:08 the core is basically some minimal assembly, then lots of memory pushing to define the core words 19:50:23 though you would really want a faster way to access the "main memory" 19:50:24 yeah 19:50:26 then you define the rest in forth itself... so i think writing one in BF should be pretty easy 19:50:26 * SimonRC goes away. 19:50:52 the problem with gregorr's stack mechanism, is that it requires double memory 19:50:57 ABC = A1B1C1 19:52:15 main thing is, for a good forthlike, you need multiple data structures: at least a stack, variable dictionary and either a dedicated linked-list dictionary for storing code or the ability to store those in your variable dictionary 19:52:46 so we'd need to carve our BF tape into at least two pieces, which means we must place absolute limits on stack or dictionary size 19:52:52 RodgerTheGreat: variable dictionary? uh, no 19:52:56 (limited stack > limited dictionary) 19:52:56 variables are just memory locations 19:53:06 with NAMES. 19:53:11 VARIABLE n -> : n ; 19:53:18 n @ -> @ 19:53:22 no dictionary there 19:53:31 it just finds an unused memory location and defines a word that just returns it 19:53:36 s/return/pushes it to stack 19:53:47 it's possible to do that 19:53:54 that's what all the forth's i've used have done 19:54:20 well, it's a simple way to do it 19:54:23 also 19:54:34 the code dictionary is really just a stack 19:54:41 except, you can non-destructively pop 19:54:45 i.e. there's a "previous" pointer 19:54:53 a linked-list, then, i guess 19:54:59 except, it has "prev" instead of "next" 19:55:15 making a word is just making the entry then: prev = CURRENT, CURRENT = self 19:55:35 so, really, you will have this memory layout: 19:56:04 [stack of fixed size (you shouldn't let it grow big anyway...)][dictionary of finite, but expanding size][HERE BE DRAGONS] 19:56:19 (dragons = variables and other misc. memory, of course) 19:56:37 of course, the dictionary can tiptoe over the dragons when adding a new entry 19:59:21 RodgerTheGreat: you know i really think a forth in brainfuck could be tiny 19:59:31 i mean, it needs very little 19:59:38 hm 19:59:50 without comments and whitespace (well, apart from 80col line breaks) i'd bet it could be pretty short... a few hundred lines? 19:59:53 maybe less 20:00:17 and I suppose the interesting thing is that most libraries you'd want are already written in more or less pure FORTH, so we could rapidly expand the language 20:00:27 indeed 20:00:40 things you won't find: graphics, networking 20:00:41 we'd want to whip up a BF interpreter that can load/save states to make it less painful to work with 20:00:42 files 20:00:43 :P 20:00:54 FORTH is it's own filesystem 20:00:59 hehe yes 20:01:16 it's not its own tcp/ip stack, however 20:01:17 :-) 20:01:31 true 20:01:37 maybe first a plain BF implementation 20:01:43 then it could be hacked to work with one of the outside-layers 20:01:46 like PSOX or EsoAPI 20:02:06 they'd act identical except the latter would have the neccessary words for doing stuff that isn't possible in pure BF 20:02:10 Wait, what? 20:02:15 PSOX == highlighted 20:02:34 Sgeo: PROTIP: if you have something on highlight, READ THE GODDAMN MESSAGE! 20:03:12 * Sgeo should work on PSOX at some point 20:06:05 RodgerTheGreat: what's your estimate for source size? ;) in instructions. i bet about 24000 instructions, minimum (300 lines at 80 characers( 20:08:10 maybe less, maybe more 20:14:42 RodgerTheGreat: actually maybe that's a bit overboard, less i'd say 20:17:22 =) 20:23:57 anyone know a way to make a BF stack that doesn't require len*2 usage? RodgerTheGreat? 20:27:27 ehird1: probably you can replace 2 by something smaller by having only occasional gaps 20:27:56 i guess that will complicate the code however 20:28:00 oerjan: yeah 20:28:18 i mean, ideally there should be some sort of sentinel value at the start and end, but then you can't access an arbitary element 20:37:01 -!- oerjan has quit (zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 20:39:36 it's puzzling 20:40:04 -!- oerjan has joined. 20:40:34 oerjan: at least i don't thinnk you can access arbitary elements with fixed sentinels 20:42:08 unless you shuffle everything 20:42:35 so i think a1b1c1...z0 is the best way, for now? 20:42:42 or rather: the only way, really 20:43:50 i'm not quite sure - since you are probably doing lots of copying even with that, perhaps shuffling everything _isn't_ that much worse 20:44:10 shuffling everything being what? 20:44:15 bogosort access? 20:44:16 :P 20:44:24 er, shifting 20:45:17 in what way? 20:45:27 swapping the carry-along index with the cells, until you get to the desired point 20:45:39 i don't quite understand 20:46:12 let's say your stack is abcdefgh and you want to access element 3 from the end 20:47:05 abcdefgh3 -swap- abcdefg2h -swap- abcdef1gh -swap- abcde0fgh 20:47:23 i see 20:47:32 that would mean stack access would be quite a lot of code, though, no? 20:47:35 you need some extra room to carry along the value, but only a _constant_ amount 20:48:16 perhaps, but you could make it a subroutine i think 20:48:46 PEBBLE 20:49:26 i don't want to use pebble 20:49:43 nor indeed subroutines, i think it'd be pretty easy to write a forth without subroutines 20:51:06 actually, only the word that accesses _arbitrary_ stack needs to use this method 20:51:17 so it would be a subroutine anyhow 20:51:23 (a forth one) 20:51:30 oerjan: all stack-manipulation words need to do it, and they shouldn't be forth words 20:51:31 why not PEBBLE? 20:51:33 (e.g. rot) 20:51:42 oklopol: because i want to use BF, not pebble (i know pebble can compile to bf) 20:51:50 no, most stack-manipulation words only need to access the top few values 20:51:57 true i guess 20:52:00 pebble is a very low-level thingie. 20:52:04 oklopol: i don't care! 20:52:18 how big should the stack be? 20:52:24 i say 15 ints 20:52:34 i mean, you shouldn't let the stack grow beyond that in forth anyway 20:52:50 o_O 20:53:01 [data stack of course] 20:53:15 oerjan: chuck moore agrees (although he is bat-shit insane) 20:54:11 for example, colorforth's stack is about that size 20:54:23 and, personally, the stack length has never grown >20 or so in my usage 20:54:27 16 seems like a good size to me 20:54:42 also, i assume that i won't do floats, negative integers etc 20:54:51 so, we can use a standard 0-255, wrapping BF int 20:55:10 (PEBBLE!!) 20:55:11 (sorry) 20:57:24 what BF interp/compilers does everyone here use? 20:57:29 i actually have no idea what the most commonly used are 21:07:42 i always make a new one 21:08:37 but if you want something with good debugging... hmm.. 21:08:44 that thingie with the blue leaf 21:08:53 i don't remember the name actually :P 21:08:56 blue fern? 21:09:05 i wonder if that was the good one 21:58:55 Damnit! I didn't think this bf interpreter through... 21:59:24 I was reading in code char-by-char/. 21:59:38 So, I can't jump. :| 22:06:46 you mean reading and executing simultaneously? 22:11:56 yeah 22:12:01 execute(read character), basically 22:12:43 rewrite time! 22:12:45 well, not really rewrite 22:12:46 not even saving the char? o_O 22:12:48 oerjan: yeah 22:12:50 pretty stupid 22:12:51 :P 22:12:54 i wasn't thinking 22:13:29 (i wouldn't even be writing a bf interp if i didn't want to add state saving/loading) 22:13:50 (basically: you can save the tape and code pointer to a file, then recall it again to resume your session) 22:14:06 (you initiate the saving by pressing ^Z - it handles SIGSUSP by asking for a filename) 22:14:17 (and then just "interp dump") 22:15:47 besides that it resizes the tape pretty well 22:15:53 it first tries len*2 22:15:57 then that-1 if it fails 22:16:00 that-2 if that fails 22:16:04 all the way down to (current size) 22:19:06 oerjan, oklopol: what do you think is a reasonable default size for code? 22:19:15 (code is read into a variable sized array, i need to know a good starting point) 22:19:24 i was thinking 1000 22:21:19 dunno 22:25:29 mwwwahahaha use pebble and make that easy to change 22:25:39 weird 22:25:44 yeah 22:25:50 pretty cizra indeed 22:26:01 upgrading from sarge to lenny changed a bunch of fonts 22:26:18 er, etch to lenny 22:38:25 my 138L, 2960C, 2.9K brainfuck interpreter is almost done (with sane bracket handling, i.e. very fast, scans at start with stack) ... then i have to do state_saving 22:39:07 (state saving isn't hard, i just need to save the tape{,size,ptr}, code{,size,length,ptr} and bracket-map{,size}) 22:39:12 so... dump all the vars basically 22:41:40 -!- oerjan has quit ("Too late, good night"). 22:43:22 -!- StapleGun_ has joined. 22:43:35 hello 22:43:56 hi 22:43:57 hi 22:44:22 ehird1: brainfuck interpreter in what languagE? 22:44:27 oklopol: C 22:44:27 EE 22:44:29 oh 22:44:33 it's for speed. 22:44:37 i'm writing a Forth in this remember 22:44:56 howver 22:44:57 however 22:45:00 it is very understandable c 22:45:21 my "oh" was very neutral 22:45:29 we should all be speaking lojban 22:45:32 heh 22:45:54 neutral attiduntal oh! 22:46:54 lol 22:46:56 dereferencing type-punned pointer will break strict-aliasing rules 22:46:58 fuck you, gcc 22:47:06 you are retarded and pedantic 22:47:08 this is C!! 22:47:19 i am allowed to play loose and fast with my pointers and their types 22:47:24 u use linux? 22:47:44 os x most of the time but i am stuck on windows right now. i am using the software i love by virtue of cygwin 22:47:54 ic 22:48:16 what r u writing? 22:48:55 a brainfuck interpreter that can dump and load states 22:49:08 i.e. you can end a session then resume it later, it just dumps the state to a file 22:49:09 cool 22:49:11 it is also pretty fast 22:49:19 thats awesome 22:49:36 it's also only 137 lines 22:49:46 holy crap 22:49:48 thats intense 22:49:57 mines like 200 for this prototype im working 22:50:06 but i didnt comment and now im confused 22:50:48 mine has about 3 comments, none of which are particularly helpful 22:50:52 but it's really easy to understand, so 22:50:57 (whee, hello world hangs. what fun) 22:51:01 It's supposed to interpret this: 22:51:03 _ < 22:51:04 _ $ 33> 100>_ 114^ 22:51:06 _<72< 101< <108>\^ \ 22:51:07 _.32> /^/ \87> 22:51:09 &{ {{ { { { { { {{{ {# 22:51:11 , Output: Hello World! 22:51:12 But I end up control+alt+deleting after a few seconds 22:51:13 hmmm 22:51:15 what language is that? 22:51:18 it looks like snusp 22:51:19 or path 22:51:21 its the one im working 22:51:26 its sort of like path i guess 22:51:44 it has an instruction pointer 22:51:52 and it bounces between the line start and finish 22:51:55 clever 22:51:58 _ drops it down the line 22:52:02 ^ jumps it up 22:52:14 it's like the turtles in mario going through execution tokens, i guess 22:52:14 heh 22:52:20 lol yes 22:52:27 u can skip the next instruction with / 22:52:32 but only if going -> 22:52:37 otherwise u need \ 22:52:51 and best of all > means push, but means pop if going the othrt way lol 22:53:46 hmm... aren't brainfuck interpreters usually like 10 lines? 22:54:00 r they? 22:54:07 i wrote one in game maker that was well over 400 22:54:13 its also very slow 22:54:15 game maker :P 22:54:19 and no one understood it 22:54:22 the scripting languagE? 22:54:23 *e 22:54:32 eh, its evvolved from that 22:54:33 or the graphical interface? 22:54:40 ppl make some pretty sophisticated stuff 22:54:44 oklopol: yeah but mine scans all brackets before execution to put them in a table, intelligently resizes the tape, and other stuff 22:54:48 well it has drag and drop, but u can c style code now 22:55:14 omfg im dislexic, i thot ehird1 was talking the whole time ... 22:55:20 ehird1: naturally you parse the code, and what's intelligent resizing? 22:55:29 oklopol: it goes: 22:55:31 len*2 22:55:33 len*2-1 22:55:34 len*2-2 22:55:34 len*2-3 22:55:35 ... 22:55:38 until it reaches len+1 22:55:43 at which point it gives up and errors out 22:55:58 so it squeezes out as much memory as it can 22:56:06 brb 22:56:41 hmm 22:56:48 i don't get it 22:57:12 0, -1, -2, -3 ... 2, 1? 22:57:19 no 22:57:22 len is the current tape len 22:57:25 yeah 22:57:28 so if it can't resize the tape to len*2 22:57:31 i.e. no memory left for it 22:57:34 then it tries that-1 22:57:34 ah. 22:57:36 then that-2 22:57:36 etc 22:58:11 technically if you have the memory my program can support any brainfuck program up to MAX_INT characters 22:58:14 actually 22:58:14 i recommend rather doing len*2, len*1.5, len*1.25 etc. 22:58:15 MAX_UNSIGNED_INT 22:58:23 and, of course, that is fucking huge 22:58:34 (4,294,967,295 instructions) 22:58:50 well 22:58:52 characters, really 22:58:53 or just not allocation the full memory each time... 22:59:02 it doesn't strip out comments, because it uses fread for speed 22:59:10 why not do a stack with every cell being 256 brainfuck cells? 22:59:19 nah, mine is pretty good 22:59:27 although there's some simple bug that is making it infinite lopo 23:00:28 i agree it could suck more. 23:00:32 ! 23:00:33 Huh? 23:01:58 yay 23:02:00 +. works 23:02:04 it was a simple reading error 23:02:27 hello = infini loop :( 23:03:59 ok, my "," is bugged 23:04:02 hmm, don't wanna be mean here, but how can you not make a brainfuck interpreter work :| 23:04:11 it's like incredibly trivial :P 23:04:16 it's more complex than a regular interp :| 23:04:37 however i must admit 23:04:40 how can "case ',': tape[ptr] = getchar(); if (feof(stdin)) tape[ptr] = 0; break;" not work 23:05:21 what doesn't work with it? 23:05:51 infini loop on ,[.,] 23:06:22 well make it output the current cell 23:06:24 oh 23:06:26 my bad... 23:06:32 i forgot to save the BF program i was testinh 23:06:33 ahahahah 23:06:36 heh 23:06:37 i had left it as my infinite lopo 23:06:55 are you purposefully typing it as lopo? 23:07:06 haha 23:07:07 no 23:07:07 :P 23:07:25 real0m0.070s 23:07:25 ^ running time for ",[.,]" to be cat|'d to itself with the interp 23:07:30 not a bad speed i'd say 23:07:54