00:32:30 -!- oklopol has quit (Connection timed out). 00:45:36 -!- ehird` has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 01:00:54 -!- staplegun has joined. 01:03:09 howzit 01:03:19 1; 01:03:33 (//_-) 01:06:15 ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ...|... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... .._,,-~~~-,-,,_ 01:06:16 ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ...|... ... ... ,,---,,_... ...,-~",-":__-,: : :"-,:::"'~,, 01:06:19 .,,-~~--,, ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ...|... ... ,~": : --,,:"~,,-"::::/:,-". . ."'~-,,: \,::::_,,"~-,, 01:06:20 /: : : : : : :"'~-,,... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... |... ... /: : : : :~"'\,: \::__/:|o--,,. . . . .\,: ¯¯: : : : : :"-, 01:06:22 \: : : : : : : : : : :""~,,... ... ... ... ... ... ... |... ... .\: : : : : :,,-"~": : : "'~~-,:"'~-,,_|: : :,-"¯¯¯¯"-,:| 01:06:24 .'~,: : : : : : : : : : : : :"'~-,,_... ... ... ... ...|... ... .."-,_: ,-" : : : : : : : : : : : "~,--~": : (o~--,,_. . |:| 01:06:25 ... ."'~-,,: : : : : : : : : : : : :"-,~--,... ... ... |... ... ... ...,/: : : : : : ,,--,-,~-,,: : :"~-,,: : :"~,___:"-/,/__ 01:06:27 ... ... ...,"~"~--,,_,,-~"`"`": : "-,::"'~~--,,_..| ... ... ... ..|: : : ,: :,-". ,-"./. . . ."-,,_: : :"~-~": : : :"'-,,~,:"-,, 01:06:29 ... ... .,/: : : : --,,:|: : : : : : : : :"-,,::::::::::::"~--,,_... ... \: : :|: /. .,/. . |. . . ,-".|. "~,,_____,,,,,__:\: : : : | 01:06:32 ... ... .|: : : : : : : "|: : : : : : :,: : : :\:::::::::::::::::::::"'~~-,,"-,:|: |. /. . . .|. .,-". . |. ,-"'. \. . .,/|. . . .",:\: : ,/ 01:06:35 ... ... ..\, : : : : : ,/ : : : : : : :|: : : ,/::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::"\: "-,,___,\,/___,,\/___. |,-". |. . . ,/.|: |,~" 01:06:38 ... ... ... ",-,,,__/: : : : : : :,/,_~"-:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::"-,,____,, : : : : : : : : : "'~,,,/.,,~". ,/: / 01:06:41 ... ... ... /: : : : :"-,,___,,-": : ,"-,-:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::'\: : : : : : : : : : : : : : : "-"__,-":,-" 01:06:41 Kickban. Please. 01:06:44 ... ... ... '\,_: : : : : : /-,,___,,"~-----~~~~,~---,,__::::::::::::::::::::::|: : : : : : : : __,,--~"~,,___,,-" 01:06:47 ... ... ... ... ."'~---~"... ... ... ... ... ... ...|---~"::::"'~-::::::::::::::::,/: : : : : : : : : :\"~,, 01:06:49 ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... .|::::::::::::::::::::::::::::,,": : : : : : : : : : : |:::::"-,, 01:06:52 ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... .|:::::::::::::::::::::::,,-": : : : : : : : : : : : :,|:::::::::"-, 01:06:55 ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... .|::::::::::_,,,--~~": : : : : : : : : : : : : : :,/::::::::::::::\, 01:06:58 ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... .|----~~" : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : :,/::::::::::::::::::\, 01:07:01 ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... .|: : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : :,-,"::::::::::::::::::::::\ 01:07:04 ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... |: : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : _,,~"SL'\,::::::::::::::::::::::\ 01:07:07 ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... |: : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : :,,-"... ... ... .\:::::::::::::::::::::::\ 01:07:10 ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... |: : : : : : : : : : : :_,,--~"... ... ... ... ...\:::::::::::::::::::::::\ 01:07:15 >_> 01:09:29 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 01:09:43 hmm 01:09:47 i can't even tell what it is 01:10:06 a smurf smoking a joint? 01:10:06 http://www.ubersite.com/m/47705 01:10:10 oh, yeah, and kickban 01:11:59 yes .. god forbit i disrupt your indepth conversation with less than a few kilobytes of data 01:12:05 forbid* 01:17:10 -!- staplegun has quit ("ChatZilla 0.9.78.1 [Firefox 2.0.0.8/2007100816]"). 02:25:36 -!- staplegun has joined. 03:37:06 -!- Sgeo has joined. 05:09:54 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 05:23:04 -!- calamari has joined. 05:23:36 hi 05:24:04 たこ。おいしい、ね。 05:24:19 probably old news, but saw this on slashdot: http://www.wolframscience.com/prizes/tm23/solution_news.html 05:25:59 "Alex Smith is an undergraduate studying Electronic and Computer Engineering at the University of Birmingham, UK. He has a background in mathematics and esoteric programming languages." 05:26:22 Oooh. 05:26:27 Anyone we know? 05:26:45 dunno.. didn't find anything on the wiki with his name, but that doesn't mean much 05:30:16 -!- oklopol has joined. 05:30:23 Would the real Alex Smith please stand up? 05:30:58 i need a new computer. 05:31:48 would('ve) be(en) so cool if he were from here 05:33:33 also, i wish i'd joined 15 seconds later 05:33:41 would've made a funny 05:34:08 Heh. 05:34:08 even cooler than these two put together would be if i actually were alex, unfortunately i'm not 05:37:48 gun -> 05:38:00 gun to school -> 05:40:50 bang 06:00:31 sounds stupid 06:09:34 LOL 06:16:03 -!- calamari has quit ("Leaving"). 06:39:54 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 07:02:54 -!- staplegun has quit ("ChatZilla 0.9.78.1 [Firefox 2.0.0.8/2007100816]"). 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 09:12:31 -!- oerjan has joined. 11:05:39 -!- staplegun has joined. 11:11:32 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving"). 11:16:40 -!- bsmntbom1dood has joined. 11:18:06 siif 11:27:49 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 11:29:01 -!- staplegun has quit ("ChatZilla 0.9.78.1 [Firefox 2.0.0.8/2007100816]"). 12:21:41 -!- zuzu_ has quit (Remote closed the connection). 12:21:44 -!- zuzu has joined. 12:47:19 -!- oklopol has joined. 12:57:57 o 12:57:58 o 14:00:21 -!- RedDak has joined. 14:34:39 -!- INTERCAL has joined. 14:35:00 foreach (user in channel) do print("Hi!"); 14:49:32 This program seems bugged. a = 3 + 5; print(a); 14:53:37 -!- INTERCAL has quit. 15:03:20 -!- Sgeo has joined. 15:42:35 -!- ehird` has joined. 15:47:08 -!- ais523 has joined. 15:50:12 pikhq: you were right, the person who solved the 2,3 Turing machine problem is on #esoteric 15:50:30 (I'd like to thank whoever it was who put the original prize in the topic and let me know about it in the first place) 15:50:47 ais523: hi 15:50:57 hi, ehird` 15:51:11 * ais523 was logreading and saw people discussing their discovery 15:51:26 wait, was it solved? that wolfram turing machine thing? 15:51:36 * ais523 also realises their gender is now public knowledge, but continues stubbornly using gender-neutral pronouns anyway 15:51:46 ehird': see http://wolframprize.org 15:51:50 the person was in #esoteric??????? 15:51:52 :O 15:52:14 crazy 15:52:16 just crazy 15:52:23 pity I'm in the wrong timezone to have been in either of the conversations about it 15:52:29 I don't know what to say it's amazing 15:52:56 if you want proof, just deduce my email address from my IRC username and the facts given in the article, and I'll send you a reply (which the University servers auto-stamp with my real name) 15:53:36 wait, YOU solved it? 15:54:07 yes 15:54:18 :O 15:54:33 did it involve writing a mapping to brainfuck? ;) 15:55:14 no, cyclic tag systems 15:55:40 * ais523 has a client running in an X terminal window on Windows which tends to hang for no apparent reason every now and then 15:56:12 hehe, perhaps a bit simpler ;) 15:57:20 crazy, though 15:57:23 absolutely crazy 15:57:33 (you're crazy too, btw ;)) 15:58:03 I'm in #esoteric, so that was so obvious you didn't need to point it out 15:58:23 haha 16:00:36 it's a strange feeling, sitting at a computer trying to stop an INTERCAL compiler while you know at any second a journalist might phone and ask questions ranging from informed to inane 16:01:19 so, who's going to write a brainfuck interpreter in it? 16:01:41 it runs at a speed worse than two to the two to the number of steps, so I suspect nobody any time soon 16:01:54 (at least with the initial condition I used) 16:02:03 YEAH WELL THEORETICAL-LAND HATES YOU TOO :< 16:02:53 you'll just have to find a more efficient way to do it. (I suspect there probably is one.) 16:03:23 is there any not-trivial program in cyclic tag systems written? 16:03:30 well, not-trivial = dividing two numbers 16:03:31 haha 16:04:53 ...and it seems that it's lament that I have to thank for unwittingly letting me know about the problem in the first place by putting it in the topic 16:05:11 so i guess he gets half the prize money? ;) hahaha 16:08:35 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 16:16:26 -!- RedDak has quit (Remote closed the connection). 16:22:35 ais523: you are all over google 16:23:09 you have to be careful with the search terms; it's easy to phrase it in such a way that you get people with the same name as me who are not me 16:23:18 but there are still quite a lot of results even then 16:23:24 i searched for: wolfram 2 3 16:23:25 :P 16:23:30 s/then/if you exclude false positives/ 16:23:32 tons on tons of results, near-all have your name 16:23:40 ehird`: that's what I would have recommended 16:27:17 based on my own Googling attempts 16:28:10 hahaha 16:28:23 "I just won $25k from Wolfram! Time to see how I'm doing on Google." 16:30:25 -!- sebbu has joined. 16:33:22 crazy 16:33:23 :) 16:33:57 every time I've looked back at my IRC terminal I see more comments I can't think of a good response to 16:34:17 running a terminal emulator emulator 16:34:31 ais523: the trials in the life of a computer scientist 16:34:36 how do you cope? ;) 16:34:38 running in a terminal emulator written in curses 16:34:46 bsmntbom1dood: what 16:35:01 damn straight bitch 16:35:34 bsmntbom1dood: my current working version of the C-INTERCAL compiler contains a compiler for a language designed specifically for writing INTERCAL optimizer idioms 16:35:52 the compiler is written in yacc, which means in this case yacc is a compiler compiler compiler 16:36:08 ais523: i hope you tell this to the journalists, they need to know what an exciting life you have 16:36:46 surprisingly most of them weren't very interested 16:36:56 amazing! :o 16:36:59 tell them how sexy i am instead 16:37:06 but there are a few esolang references dropped into some of the articles if you look closely enough 16:38:18 Wolfram's related blog entry, for instance 16:45:39 "Hey guys good news! I found a polynomial-time algorithm running on this 2,3 Turing machine for an NP-complete problem!" -- person I know 16:46:09 (It's probably funnier first time due to the fact it's on a rather idle post tagged on after "Edit: ") 16:47:10 I'd be quite impressed if someone came across an NP-complete problem that could manage that 16:47:28 ;) 16:49:28 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 16:50:45 hah: 16:50:50 "Only God and Chuck Norris can solve the halting problem. 16:50:50 Edit: Also Rudy Giuliani. It turns out that for any input, the answer is 9/11. :/" 16:52:06 the neat thing about the Turing machine in question is unlike with most languages, a program that lasts an infinite amount of time has to be infinitely long 16:52:25 wait... doesn't that make it NOT universal? 16:52:32 it would be nice if there was a proof which filled space with a simple repeating pattern rather than the complicated nested pattern I used 16:52:33 don't you have to be able to do finite infinite loops? 16:53:01 the point is that the initial condition is always derived from a finite original program using a non-Turing-complete-in-itself process 16:54:20 if you think about it, all Turing machine initial conditions are infinitely long because the tape itself is infinitely long and you have to specify every element on it 16:56:33 -!- sebbu has quit (Connection timed out). 16:56:33 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu. 17:02:27 -!- ais523 has quit. 17:28:53 that's not true 17:29:14 setting up the initial conditions themselves can be represented as a program 17:29:19 and the program will be finite 17:29:39 he's gone now 17:29:42 the only infinite thing is that the tape starts off as infinite zeros 17:30:00 but hey, you directly caused him to find out about it and then win it 17:30:01 pretty cool 17:36:12 -!- oklopol has joined. 17:46:08 -!- Nucleo has joined. 17:52:37 oh, just read the log 17:52:40 this is so cool! 17:52:45 #esoteric kicks ass 17:52:48 haha, i haven't read it yet 17:52:51 but it is cool 17:53:04 i mean your conversation with ais523 17:53:37 if you want your hard esoteric problem solved - show it to #esoteric people! 17:53:44 haha 17:53:44 :) 17:53:45 sweet :) 17:53:57 LMAO, from earlier today: Oooh. Anyone we know? 17:54:14 of course, #esoteric avoided all publicity 17:54:27 maybe we should ask ais523 to mention it somewhere :) 17:54:36 would('ve) be(en) so cool if he were from here 17:55:00 lament: imagine how bad reddit was -- and they're more intelligent than most people, on average -- and multiply it times a few million 17:55:04 lament: do you still want to do that? 17:55:18 ehird`: yes 17:55:22 it's not few million 17:55:28 it's not _that_ important a result 17:55:34 it's probably just the people who read wolfram's blog 17:55:42 he's had newspaper articles, iirc 17:55:43 which are hopefully much smarter than redditers 17:55:47 (not published yet ofc) 17:55:59 newspaper articles aren't gonna mention an irc channel, because they don't know what that is 17:56:08 :p 17:56:16 maybe we could post to lambda the ultimate if he's fine with that 17:56:21 it's really funny, this line: 17:56:24 pikhq: you were right, the person who solved the 2,3 Turing machine problem is on #esoteric 17:56:31 i didn't catch on that he meant him until a bit later 17:56:33 ;;;;;;:;;;:;;;;;: 17:57:21 also the redditers thing wasn't that bad in the long run 17:57:32 the idiots left within a day 17:57:34 it's redditors, just fyi 17:57:45 wait what? 17:57:50 the 2,3 guy is here? 17:57:54 bsmntbom1dood: ais523 solved it 17:58:09 ??? 17:58:18 bsmntbom1dood: !!! 17:58:23 impossible 17:58:28 -!- lament has set topic: Esoteric programming language discussion | FORUM AND WIKI: esolangs.org | CHANNEL LOGS: http://ircbrowse.com/cdates.html?channel=esoteric | IRP in #irp | Don't spam the channel with EgoBot commands, /query EgoBot | Don't spam the channel with toBogE commands, /join #toboge | Don't spam the channel with bsmnt_bot commands, take him to your own channel. | Congratulations ais523 for winning the Wolfram research prize!. 17:58:33 no, it's evidently possible 17:58:36 ;) 17:58:52 anyway: if you want proof, just deduce my email address from my IRC username and the facts given in the article, and I'll send you a reply (which the University servers auto-stamp with my real name) 18:00:15 it's impossible because I'M the one who solved it 18:00:29 heh 18:00:39 we all know you are ais523 ;) 18:03:10 -!- jix has joined. 18:06:14 someone should post something about #esoteric and the prize 18:11:59 That's pretty spiffy. 18:25:54 * bsmntbom1dood happens to be sitting in a leather armchair 18:39:38 * oklopol too 18:45:37 i'm sitting on a piano bench! 18:47:10 do you play? 18:47:39 not at the moment 18:47:54 how many pianists do we have here? 18:48:00 this is a POLL! 18:48:05 * oklopol is one 18:48:05 69105 18:48:14 i'm not a pianist, i'm a musician. 18:48:26 well yeah, i'm more of a general musician myself 18:49:33 Well, there's Gregor. . . 18:50:43 that would be a small percentage 18:53:37 musician 18:56:02 musician 18:56:29 musician 18:59:25 Singer. 18:59:41 POOPERIZERMATOR 18:59:45 er, yes. 19:00:07 ... Is everyone in here a musician? XD 19:00:39 i'm not 19:00:40 :P 19:00:43 banned 19:00:49 :( 19:01:04 you have a 3-day grace period to learn to play some instrument 19:01:16 I can play the kazoo... 19:01:17 kind of... 19:04:13 It doesn't even have to be a complex instrument. . . 19:04:27 i can make random whines on the theremin? 19:04:29 :P 19:04:34 Stallman, for example, sings (nasally) and plays the recorder (can't comment on quality) 19:04:48 stallman is a crazy hobo though. 19:04:50 Learn the theremin. . . We could use a theremin for the Esoteric Ensemble. :p 19:04:53 I'm not. I don't think. 19:05:04 i actually have a theremin 19:05:12 i thought it would be awesome until i realised i suck at anything musical 19:05:12 :( 19:05:32 i think theremins kinda suck, but that's really cool if you actually have one 19:07:19 http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=mW0B1sipLBI the formal proof that theremins are awesome 19:08:39 * SimonRC just thought of a great math trick 19:08:58 I just realised how to measure the area of an arbitrary polygon 19:09:03 orly 19:09:13 you pick some point way outside the polygon 19:09:33 then, procede round the polygon's edges 19:09:34 define way 19:09:50 outside the convex hull, or whatever it's called 19:10:45 consider the area defined by your point and each edge, which is a triangle... 19:11:32 if you calculate the ares of all the triangles, then add all the ones from edges that went "left" and subtract all the ones from edges that went "right", you have the area of the polygon! 19:12:16 the point you are measuring from can be a corner of the bounding box, for example 19:12:36 and the are of the triangles is given by the cosine rule, I think 19:12:55 in fact, you may be able to use any point outside the polygon, but I can't be sure 19:14:05 hmm 19:14:13 maybe even points inside the polygon work... 19:14:25 yeah, I think they do! 19:16:12 oh, wait, the area of the triangles can be found without the cosine rule 19:16:31 i wanna theremin :O 19:18:52 who wants a random .signature-C challenge? 19:19:27 is the prize a theremin? 19:19:34 haha 19:19:41 probably not, i like my theremin :P 19:20:43 but the challenge is: generate the sierpinski triangle (in 4 lines or less of C, no standard compliance required - gcc hacks allowed), and print it out in ascii (any size, really... the bigger the better, because you can get more detail. I'd say something like ~200x200) 19:20:43 BUT 19:20:45 there's a catch 19:20:49 you must do it with this method: 19:21:01 1. Take 3 points in a plane, and form a triangle 2. Randomly select any point inside the triangle and move half the distance from that point to any of the 3 vertex points. 3. Plot the current position. Repeat from step 2. 19:21:04 AKA - the chaos game 19:21:12 you'll need a lot of iterations of course 19:23:16 waitamo... 19:23:22 I am getting a funny result here... 19:23:28 what? 19:23:36 * SimonRC types... 19:23:50 If you ahve a triangle inside a bouunding rectangle... 19:24:05 suppose that it has one corner at 0,0 19:24:38 the other corners are at (w,x) and (h,y), so the bounding box has size w wide by h high... 19:24:58 the are of the triangle seems to be (wh-xy)/2 19:25:05 which sounds too simple 19:26:24 (I got this by assuming that w=h=1 initially, then rescaling 19:26:26 ) 19:27:06 calling a y-coordinate "x" is possibly the most confusing thing ever. 19:27:14 umm 19:27:25 i suppose you actually mean the coordinates are (w,y) and (x,h)? 19:27:51 yeah, I meant the corners are (w, y) and (x, h), I think.... 19:28:32 -!- oerjan has joined. 19:36:28 oops, I now realise that there are some triangles that won't work for 19:36:49 anyone knows alex smith? 19:37:03 who? 19:37:08 alex smith 19:37:15 http://blog.wolfram.com/2007/10/the_prize_is_won_the_simplest.html 19:37:34 But at 20:53:59 GMT on Saturday, June 30--just 47 days after we announced the prize--we received a submission, with the description of the submitter given as "Alex Smith is an undergraduate studying Electronic and Computer Engineering at the University of Birmingham, UK. He has a background in mathematics and esoteric programming languages." 19:39:16 jix: read the logs for today :D 19:39:24 jix: ais523 19:39:25 :) 19:39:44 ah cool :) 19:44:49 -!- Arrogant has joined. 19:45:07 -!- RedDak has joined. 19:46:27 hi * 2 19:46:35 :p 19:48:00 today is a great day :) 19:48:08 why? 19:48:19 * GregorR stabs jix and steals his happy. 19:49:12 my doom cart arrived in UK (and is on the way to me), we got 1000eur for our robot team, and i think it's really cool that someone from here solved that problem 19:50:03 I wish I had a robot that could play Doom 19:50:27 nah the doom cart and the robot stuff is completely unrelated 19:51:04 * SimonRC feels dumb... 19:51:31 Doesn't change my dreams 19:51:36 duh, I could just applythe method I just rediscovered in the difficult case 19:58:52 * oklopol always feels dumb 19:58:54 ...here 19:59:05 * pikhq always feels smart here 19:59:09 well, anywhere else too, except for programming.. 20:01:35 this is extremely annoying. now i'll have to solve the P vs. NP problem just to stay in the pecking order here... 20:02:09 ^^ 20:02:14 what if i do that tonight just to annoy ya? 20:02:16 is there a prize for the collatz problem? 20:04:22 hm, nothing listed on the wikipedia page 20:04:27 1000 20:04:31 pounds 20:04:38 http://mathworld.wolfram.com/CollatzProblem.html 20:04:57 oh that one 20:06:59 -!- jix has quit (Nick collision from services.). 20:07:09 -!- jix has joined. 20:08:34 * oerjan wonders if David Morgan-Mar has ever been on the channel. But i guess his esoteric language days were in the past. 20:09:02 who? 20:09:04 * ehird` is lame 20:09:24 I know Edwin Brady, and he has been here. 20:09:28 the author of Irregular Webcomic, and also Chef 20:09:47 or should that be: Edwin " \t\n" Brady 20:09:54 :-) 20:12:20 phew the lag is over 20:12:33 * ehird` is parsing the whole of the brown corpus into his markov chain 20:12:33 damnit 20:12:34 thje lag is back 20:12:37 and now it's gone again 20:13:15 1.176 seconds 20:13:20 something must be awfully odd at 20:13:49 lines 32000 to lines 33000 20:13:53 because it is lagging on them 20:14:07 gottit! 20:14:16 SimonRC: ? 20:14:32 ehird`: did my ping automatically move you into a message window? o_O 20:14:37 yes 20:14:39 pidgin sucks 20:14:49 (i would not use it if i was not on windows beyond my control right now) 20:14:56 if the point on the triangle are (0,0), (x1,y2), and (x2, y2), the area is (x1*y2 - x2*y1)/2 20:15:05 for any arrangement of points 20:16:08 right, cross product 20:16:17 oh yes, so it is 20:16:33 i know someone who knows someone who knows mandelbrot 20:17:22 jix: how about Gődel? 20:17:32 but is that knowledge self-similar? 20:17:33 um, excuse by charsety 20:17:36 no 20:17:37 *charset 20:17:41 SimonRC: not '', but .. 20:17:45 (windows retarded keymap, sorry) 20:17:57 U+0151 20:18:16 "LATIN SMALL LETTER O WITH DOUBLE ACCUTE" 20:18:21 accute != dot 20:18:23 um, "ACUTE" 20:18:26 yup 20:18:28 it's Godel with an umlaut 20:18:37 and by the first know i'm talking about my previous math teacher and a good friend of mine 20:18:39 * ehird` is watching his markov chain-erator go 20:18:45 no, it's a double-acute, not a double-dot 20:18:55 SimonRC: that is not how godel is spelled 20:18:59 not double acute, that would be Erdos 20:19:04 oerjan: yep 20:19:59 godel-numbers are something _quite_ different from erdos-numbers 20:20:09 haha 20:20:19 my godel-number is somewhere in the reigon of 34872398723423! 20:20:24 so is my erdos-number, incidentally! 20:20:45 *cough* 20:20:48 ehird`: you've never written a collaboratory paper? 20:20:54 I was thinknig on Erdo''s 20:21:01 the 2nd person in that row is heinz-otto peitgen ... the doktorvater(??) of my previous math teacher 20:21:02 *thinking of 20:21:19 i don't quite recall my erdos-number but i think it was around 5-6 20:21:31 yow, i have something close to exponential time increase per line 20:21:33 wait, no 20:21:35 linear increase 20:21:37 but still pretty bad 20:21:43 because the table gets bigger every time 20:21:44 thus next line 20:21:48 there's a bigger table to check in 20:21:49 and so forth 20:22:03 and he runs the company my previous math teacher works at now 20:22:34 10000/51764... 20:22:36 ooh: http://mathcentral.uregina.ca/QQ/database/QQ.09.98/tyler1.html 20:22:40 why is the brown corpus so damn big? ;) 20:23:30 11000/51764 20:25:13 ehird`: what is this thing? 20:25:25 SimonRC: what thing? 20:25:37 i'm feeding the brown corpus into my markov chain generator 20:25:43 ah 20:25:47 the brown corpus is, basically, a shitload of american english text 20:25:55 hence the name? 20:26:01 hence the name. 20:26:03 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brown_Corpus 20:26:35 i just found a plaintext version 20:26:38 and am feeding it through 20:26:45 it's around 5mb 20:27:41 -!- ehird` has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 20:28:53 -!- ehird` has joined. 20:29:57 16000/51764... 20:30:02 sloh-oh-oww 20:34:08 * ehird` just does the first 5000 for now :P 20:37:41 damn, my program is slow 20:41:47 holy... 20:41:50 it's still going 20:52:39 ok 20:52:46 i'll just try 500 lines 20:52:48 there 20:52:49 this seems to work 20:55:32 wow 20:55:35 that is very lucid 20:55:38 "I'm willing to stake my political career goes back to his election to city council in 1923." 20:55:42 the first thing it produced 21:03:45 hey 21:03:50 my markov chain produces intelligable stuff! 21:04:46 now feed it atlas shrugged 21:05:08 haha 21:06:08 some text it's produced (i think the brown corpus starts with political stuff, so that'd explain these): 21:06:08 "Sam Caldwell, State Highway Department public relations director, resigned Tuesday to work for Lt. Gov. Garland Byrd's campaign." 21:06:19 "I didn't smell a drop of liquor, and we didn't have a son, William Berry Jr., and a doctor, medical intern or extern be employed at the State Welfare Department's handling of federal funds granted for child welfare services in foster homes." 21:06:19 it'll probably spit out a 3-page-long improvised speech given at a party with no provocation 21:06:34 i love the second one 21:06:51 Okay that last one doesn't quite work 21:07:12 neither means anything, really 21:07:16 but i've heard worse :P 21:07:39 unless you can "stake" an even 21:07:42 *event 21:07:49 uhh 21:07:50 no 21:07:54 "I'm willing to stake my political career goes back to his election to city council in 1923." makes perfect sense 21:08:12 it effectively means "I'm willing to bet that my political career goes back to his election to city council in 1923." 21:08:13 what's stake mean there? 21:08:19 anyway, oklopol, your bot was worse 21:08:19 :P 21:08:21 so you can "stake" an event 21:08:30 ehird`: nah 21:08:35 heck yes 21:08:39 same thing, really. 21:08:41 it produced rubbish 21:08:43 mine doesn't 21:08:47 also, mine is a second-order markov chain 21:08:49 it's different. 21:08:52 how? 21:09:04 what's the difference? 21:09:07 yours maps word=>(next,next...), correct? 21:09:11 yeah 21:09:14 well 21:09:25 second order chains map (word1,word2)=>(next,next...) 21:09:25 so 21:09:29 "hello world abc" would be 21:09:33 (hello,world)=>(abc) 21:09:35 instead of: 21:09:40 (hello)=>(world) 21:09:41 and (world)=>(abc) 21:09:55 it makes it a lot more intelligable, and doesn't increase the parroting much 21:10:04 yeah, plagiarizing a bit more will produce a bit better text, but that's no real enhancement 21:10:13 it is, actually 21:10:15 there's nothing fundamentally better there 21:10:17 it is a dramatic improvement 21:10:20 sure 21:10:22 everything >2 parrots far too much 21:10:22 :) 21:10:28 everything <2 (well, 1) produces garbage 21:10:31 but 2 produces semi-coherent text 21:11:29 what's the use of making these chains, anyway? 21:11:39 doubt a "first-order" chain would produce any less coherent stuff given that input. 21:11:43 what's the use of using esoteric languages, Arrogant? :) 21:11:49 Arrogant: there's no use, ever 21:11:55 was just wondering 21:11:56 oklopol: prove me wrong 21:12:22 feed the first 499 (NOTE: not all of it) of http://dingo.sbs.arizona.edu/~hammond/ling696f-sp03/browncorpus.txt to your markov chain generator 21:12:28 make sure to do it line-by-line not all at once 21:12:33 err, first 499 lines 21:12:35 then produce some text 21:12:37 show me it 21:12:46 nah 21:12:59 you didn't time your program yesterday, so i'm not gonnado this ;) 21:13:03 *gonna do 21:13:06 i did time it ffs 21:13:30 but fine, you're wrong anyway (sheesh, what a childish reason to stop the proving that markov order-2 chains are better) 21:13:34 sure 21:14:01 the real reason is i don't care 21:14:17 markov chains are too trivial to be interesting 21:14:23 * ehird` rolls eyes 21:14:26 so what do you suggest instead? 21:14:43 i suggest we drop the subject :D 21:15:01 no, really, what do you suggest instead of markov chains? 21:15:04 i'm interested 21:16:08 waiting for someone to invent something that works? 21:16:15 hahaha 21:16:23 :| 21:16:25 you're weird 21:16:32 wehird 21:16:41 "markov chains are too trivial! i won't use them. 21:16:41 i'm just waiting for someone to invent something TOTALLY AWESOME" 21:17:04 err... what's funny about not thinking markov chains are interesting? 21:17:25 because you call them "trivial" yet state you are waiting for someone to invent something less trivial 21:17:33 if they're the least-trivial thing out there, then they're hardly trivial 21:17:55 i'm saying if you insist on getting something better, just wait; i've never claimed to be at all interested in making good parrots 21:18:40 and why the fuck would i need to think markov chains are interesting just because they're the best we've got? 21:19:02 if they're trivial, they're not interesting 21:19:18 since there's nothing interesting you can do with them 21:20:11 i was talking in the context of making parrots 21:20:20 i didn't say anything about you in particular being interested in them 21:21:02 i just said i don't wanna do the test, because i didn't see a reason to do that 21:21:16 meh, whatever, i'm going to ask in #lojban 21:21:25 about my generate-and-filter idea 21:31:19 what's so special about markov chains? 21:31:48 they#re fun 21:32:08 they're neither the most trivial predictive model, nor the most interesting one 21:32:19 what's the most trivial then? 21:32:24 -!- Arrogant has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 21:32:49 bag of words model is simpler 21:32:51 you can't think of anything simpler than a markov chain? :P 21:33:05 well, pick random word, repeat 21:33:09 but apart from that? no 21:33:10 random line noise is simpler 21:33:42 that's not a predictive model, though 21:33:44 lament: what's that? 21:33:48 42 42 42 42 42 21:33:52 ehird`: i actually study this at university at the moment 21:34:15 ehird`: the simplest model, given some data, would be to pick the most common word in the data and always produce that 21:34:21 42 42 42 42 42 21:34:44 lament: so... 21:34:47 i think it would be even simpler to pick the first word 21:34:50 "hello world hello" 21:34:51 would produce 21:34:54 "hello hello hello"? 21:34:57 right 21:35:02 if so, that's... trivial, but uh how shall i put this 21:35:03 ;) 21:35:11 what's something trivial that doesn't involve repeating yourself over and over? 21:35:36 pick a random word, preferrably with a probability distribution influenced by what you see in the data. 21:36:07 ] 21:36:09 heh 21:36:22 so, "hello world hello" -> "hello hello world world hello hello hello hello world hello world world"? 21:36:23 ;) 21:36:31 ok, the next step up in triviality from that 21:37:13 well, this is as far as you can get with words being considered independent 21:37:30 so the next step would be to consider them in relationship to one another 21:37:37 which brings you to markov chains? 21:37:38 so.. markov chains 21:37:54 what about one step up in triviality from markov chains (of all orders) 21:38:53 i don't know, is there anything more complex than a markov chain of infinite order? 21:39:09 haha 21:39:10 i would think not, you'd just never get enough data to train it 21:39:16 joking aside, i mean 21:39:17 ;) 21:39:36 that's not joking, you can't just combine markov chains of different orders like that :) 21:39:51 ok ok ok 21:39:56 lament: you can make it better by also introducing the concept of "topics" 21:39:56 if you pretend markov chains don't exist 21:40:02 but i think the next step is just optimizations 21:40:09 like topics, teaching it the english grammar, etc 21:40:37 (if you know it's english and there're topics, which doesn't have to be the case) 21:41:05 ehird`: a markov chain is just a particular kind of a dependence graph 21:41:20 hmm... wonder if it could ever find any meaning for anything given just the irc interface 21:41:26 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bayesian_network 21:41:34 i mean, in theory, given a perfect ai 21:41:49 we already know that's possible with full world interaction 21:41:58 but irc just has ops, kicks and privmsg's 21:41:59 ehird`: read that article and consider how markov chains tie in :) 21:42:05 -!- ehird` has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 21:42:16 "nah, i don't feel like it" 21:42:34 -!- ehird` has joined. 21:42:39 er 21:42:41 i missed the last few messages 21:42:45 ehird`: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bayesian_network 21:43:03 that article is way too technical and messy and doesn't have enough pictures 21:43:20 i agree! 21:43:31 anything else? maybe something that doesn't make my head hurt? :-) 21:43:46 (Maybe even something I could have a go at implementing, heh.) 21:44:06 im not sure 21:44:25 certainly, something that doesn't say "im" ;) 21:45:45 well let's put it this way 21:45:52 i highly doubt i could implement a bayesian network 21:45:53 :-) 21:46:15 a markov chain is a bayesian network that looks like this 21:46:24 [w1]->[w2]->[w3]->... 21:46:33 i use a 2nd-order markov chain 21:46:36 what does it look like then? 21:46:47 (more importantly what's another example of a bayesian network) 21:47:00 harder to draw, w1 now has an arrow to w3, etc 21:47:39 a->b just means "b depends on a" 21:47:41 ok so i'm not exactly sure of the implications 21:47:42 :) 21:49:05 your knowledge of w2 is influenced by the knowledge of w1 21:49:20 and, since there're no more arrows in the 1st order graph, nothing else 21:49:36 lament: isn't that just what a 2nd order markov chain is? 21:49:39 so it's some kind of a probability distribution with one parameter 21:49:49 and for a 2nd order chain, two parameters 21:51:22 and for an infinite order chain, infinitely many parameters, so you can't really get any more complex 21:51:40 so bayesian network is basically a markov chain 21:51:45 is there anything really seperate? 21:51:58 wow, i really suck at explaining this. 21:52:07 i'll stop. 21:52:16 haha 21:52:17 :( 21:52:36 i suck at sucking 21:52:48 well, blowjob is a blowjob 21:53:30 * bsmntbom1dood has never given a blowjob 21:53:34 -!- bsmntbom1dood has changed nick to bsmntbombdood. 21:53:47 python has really killed my brain 21:54:12 use scheme instead 21:54:34 bsmntbombdood: there's always the first tiem 21:54:40 doing C is hard when everything that requires manual memory allocation seems too complicated to be a good solution... 21:54:57 lament: unless there is no first time 21:55:01 for simple programs you don't need malloc, oklopol 21:55:07 just choose some fixed size and make an array of it 21:55:07 ;) 21:55:47 this isn't simple 21:55:56 but yeah, that's what i'm doing for the first version 21:56:07 and 21:56:14 nobody. has. done. my. sierpinski challenge 21:56:14 :( 21:56:30 also, all the time i'm trying to use C++ stuff :P 21:56:35 then i realize i decided not to 21:58:57 ooooooorgy 21:59:06 oklopol: we need to get this thing going 21:59:12 lament is coming right? 21:59:16 ho-kay... 22:00:13 bsmntbombdood: yeah, we need to do something about your bad sucking capabilities, lament's experience will be most helpful 22:00:36 sucking at sucking was merely a guess 22:00:45 i could have natural skill, you never know... 22:01:05 i do watch a lot of, ahem, instructional videos 22:02:07 i'm coming? 22:02:14 well yeah, but it's actually quite hard getting the ...whatsit open 22:02:24 you might puke without training 22:02:29 if you try too deep 22:02:31 lament: are you? 22:02:38 not at the moment 22:02:41 heh 22:02:43 awww 22:03:27 i already have a small orgy planned for the weekend, actually 22:03:32 very small, though 22:03:53 that's disgusting, young man 22:04:22 not that small! 22:04:39 the least disgusting number of people 22:04:55 huh? 22:05:15 five? 22:05:27 yeah, five 22:06:12 well, there's wankfest, sex, threeway, fourway... orgy 22:06:25 you might say there's a least weird one there 22:06:48 hehe, -fest always makes me laugh 22:06:51 you skipped "sanity", right after "fourway" 22:07:27 -!- RedDak has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 22:07:29 whooops, sorry 22:07:40 anyone have an acm web account? 22:07:42 wankfest, sex, threeway, fourway, sanity... orgy 22:10:37 that should be the motto of our orgy 22:12:29 (or not) 22:12:42 what... 0:12 22:12:46 i hate time 22:12:53 15:12 22:12:57 !! 22:13:02 ARE YOU STEALING MY TIMES? 22:13:39 hmm, perhaps i should eat a pizza -> 22:13:51 mm pizza 22:13:57 my armpits smell good 22:15:12 -!- jix has quit ("CommandQ"). 22:16:08 what language is tex in? 22:17:08 c 22:17:19 with knuth's literate programming system iirc 22:26:22 -!- SimonRC has quit (Remote closed the connection). 22:26:27 -!- SimonRC has joined. 22:31:44 i think the root of things like text generation 22:32:04 is a function Sim(S) 22:32:17 "produce something that looks like it could be in set S" 22:32:41 Maybe Sim(S,C) where C(a,b) is a function for ranking (from 0 to 1, say) how similar a and b are 22:32:56 of course it'll be very hard to figure out an algorithm for Sim that works pretty well, even more so for C 22:34:52 Unless, of course, there's some new development i'm unaware of? 22:41:07 Sim can brute force 22:41:31 C can use levenshtein distance or something 22:41:56 Sim brute forcing isn't very nice, though 22:42:05 Especially if you're generating nonsense text or the like 22:42:36 (levenshtein distance wouldn't work very well, because it's the more "mechanical" kind of "simularity" - you wouldn't get "new" text like e.g. markov chains) 22:43:07 i want to know how google's translate agorithm works 22:43:13 i've heard it's automatically trained 22:43:24 you can also suggest a translation 22:43:37 (which is why a while back "sarkozy sarkozy sarkozy" translated to "Cheney defends Bush") 22:43:43 (or similar) 22:44:11 and contextual, yes 22:44:28 google translate? 22:45:00 if anyone produces an algorithm (without hand-waving) for Sim and C, i would be mightily impressed (that is if it actually worked ;)) 22:45:02 oklopol: what 22:45:12 ehird`: that's ai 22:45:24 ehird`: exactly 22:45:42 oklopol: google.com/translate_t it's the best machine translation out there basically [it still sucks] 22:45:48 bsmntbombdood: of course a perfect Sim and C would be AI 22:46:26 i kill cows -> Ich tten Khe 22:46:33 i need no further testing... 22:46:37 i told you it sucks 22:46:40 but it is useful 22:46:45 perhaps 22:46:53 try translating a foreign language article to english, you can make out what they're saying most of the time 22:46:56 what does that say? 22:47:11 i kills cows... 22:47:20 it's just wrong... form of the verb 22:47:35 should be tte 22:47:41 yeah 22:47:57 also, oerjan, don't know everything! 22:48:03 understandable 22:48:33 yeah, but that such a simple thing... it's always ich + {verb}e 22:48:38 *that's 22:48:48 it's neural-net or similar-based, though 22:48:48 it's statistical, not rule based 22:48:52 it's not "simple" 22:48:56 you don't just tell it something mechanical 22:49:04 you teach it over time, like neural nets 22:49:11 i do know that. 22:49:33 blame the whole world, for misteaching it 22:49:41 i shall 22:49:44 FUCK YOU WORLD 22:49:51 /AMSG FUCK YOU ALL 22:49:53 ... 22:50:06 ... 22:50:08 um 22:50:09 what 22:50:18 err blaming the world 22:50:55 i apologize to anyone not a part of this world! 22:51:02 hmm, i'd better do some sleeping - 22:51:05 -> 22:51:35 oklopol: wimp 22:51:39 :> 22:51:41 it's only 00:51 22:51:41 *:< 22:51:51 but... i like dreams 22:51:59 i've actually been having them again 22:52:08 like last night, i dremt i was in my friends room 22:52:10 trapped 22:52:21 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good night"). 22:52:24 and i knew i only hard 50 seconds before it would burst into flames and i'd die 22:52:41 so i thought "i'll pee on the floor" 22:52:44 and so i did. 22:52:49 (no, didn't wet my bed ;)) 22:53:02 that was so absurd, i lolled my ass off when i woke up 22:53:34 think, you're about to die, and the first thing that pops to mind is "i'll ruin my friends carpet, mwahaha" 22:53:46 *friend's 22:53:53 okay, that may not have been a good example 22:53:55 i thought you were peeing to stop the burning... 22:53:59 but quality dreams anyway 22:54:00 oh no 22:54:12 it was gonna be like 5000 degrees 22:54:17 instant kill, and i knew that 22:54:33 lol 22:54:42 i just wanted to pee on the floor, because no one could blame me for anything 22:55:07 was also interesting when i actually died, but that's hard to explain really 22:55:45 don't want to die with a full bladder 22:55:45 hmm, no i feel bad for wanting to sleep 22:55:50 *now 22:56:01 my dreams are so naive 22:56:04 i was thinking you could hide flammable liquids in your bladder 22:56:05 dying just makes them go black 22:56:11 and then piss and start a fire 22:56:25 well, most people wake up when they die 22:56:35 i did too, but i woke up in another dream 22:56:45 i wake up but only after a second or so of black 22:56:50 the half-dreams where you fall and then when you hit the ground and jerk irl are cool 22:57:39 when you're half asleep, just before really falling asleep 22:57:43 yeah, but i've had dreams where i fall from a mountain top, and through concrete, and i can't breath 22:57:50 awesome 22:58:02 i hardly ever remember my dreams :( 22:58:08 one of my fears is finding myself inside a solid object 22:58:09 except 22:58:10 actually inside 22:58:13 not a me-sized hole 22:58:19 but actually completely immersed in a solid object 22:58:25 like, say, an FPS with noclip on 22:58:33 one time i had a dream my hand was carved empty, and when i woke up, for a moment i actually hallucinated it really was 22:59:04 almost all these great dreams occurred about 2 years ago when i didn't sleep nearly at all 22:59:15 guess i should start sleeping less again 22:59:15 also, another of my fears is reality's texture mapping fucking up and me suddenly finding myself pasted onto the floor 22:59:17 that would feel weird 22:59:50 hmm, like 2d? 22:59:57 yeah 23:00:02 would be so cool 23:00:04 like, the texture of my body, would be mapped onto the floor instead 23:00:06 eww no 23:00:09 you'd like, feel the floor 23:00:14 because you'd be the floor 23:00:17 so 23:00:20 cool 23:00:22 and all objects would morph in size and have textures mapped on 23:00:24 and see up all the girls skirts! 23:00:24 aaargh 23:00:26 i'd be terrified 23:00:29 yeah! 23:01:09 hmm, i'll really go now, i already slept through one school day this week 23:01:10 -> 23:21:05 -!- staplegun has joined. 23:22:16 -!- sebbu has quit ("@+"). 23:22:37 anyone want to write that sierpinski program challenge? 23:22:38 :) 23:28:02 who speaks norweigian? 23:28:08 i don't! 23:28:50 Oerjan. 23:29:21 neither does google translate 23:29:38 Wait for Oerjan to return. . . 23:29:48 And then our Norwegian friend can help you. ;) 23:29:56 yes 23:30:06 http://www.itavisen.no/sak/493810/-___Norge_f%E5r_OiNK-__sak/ 23:30:08 ^^ 23:30:32 try fabelbish? 23:34:28 howzit