00:02:31 <ehird`> jesus christ! ##c is terrible
00:08:53 <GregorR> I recall getting an answer to a question in ##c once. It took many hours and more insults and answers, but I did get it.
00:09:14 <GregorR> If I had a C question (which I never do because I'm meeeeeeeee) I'd ask in #esoteric :P
00:09:30 <ehird`> poppavic has to be the single most infuriating rambling idiot ever
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00:10:37 <lament> but he's only infuriating if you're trying to argue with him. Don't.
00:10:54 <lament> when you don't, he's actually kinda funny.
00:11:16 <ehird`> i've always thought i could write a program that spews out nonsense at about the same rate as poppavic does
00:14:16 <oklopol> do i just copy the files in \bin to the \bin of mingw and so on?
00:14:38 <oklopol> and no, i've never really dl'd libraries :P
00:15:15 <ehird`> you know, you'd have a lot easier job if you just used a cygwin-based build system
00:15:28 <ehird`> well ok, you shouldn't use make yourself
00:15:54 <oklopol> hmm... i couldn't find gdb in the cygwin setup..
00:16:15 <ehird`> i think it comes with gcc
00:16:34 <ehird`> but anyway, gcc & gdb are top-notch tools and using them directly will benefit you greatly
00:16:45 <ehird`> they're pretty much the gnu project's only decent achivements ;)
00:17:08 <oklopol> but... i kinda like a graphical view :|
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00:17:52 <ehird`> what is a graphical view to a compiler?
00:18:00 <ehird`> a compiler takes some code and makes a program
00:18:03 <ehird`> and tells you if anything is wrong
00:18:05 <ehird`> what is graphical about that?
00:18:07 <oklopol> not the compiler, the debugger
00:18:15 <ehird`> it tells you what line it's executing
00:18:18 <ehird`> and lets you tell it what to do
00:18:43 <oklopol> it's nice seeing it highlight the current row in the code"
00:18:56 <ehird`> it does, actually, with gdb
00:19:04 <ehird`> it even gives you a line number
00:19:12 <ehird`> you see the file name, line number, and source code of the line
00:19:18 <oklopol> there's no "gdb" in cygwin anyway
00:19:33 <ehird`> GNU gdb 6.5.50.20060706-cvs (cygwin-special)
00:19:43 <ehird`> nothign in cygwin is built in!!
00:19:48 <ehird`> the whole POINT is that you run the setup to add stuff!!
00:19:59 <ehird`> yes, because it's essential
00:20:03 <ehird`> but everything else is not
00:20:18 <ehird`> EVERY peice of software cygwin has - almost everything - is not by default
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00:20:46 <oklopol> you happen to know where it is there?
00:21:18 <oklopol> it's only obvious if you don't read that as "Jewel"
00:21:38 <GregorR> When I'm just looking for a specific program, I always set it to the full view.
00:21:47 <GregorR> The categories are often confusing.
00:21:51 <ehird`> GregorR: you use windows too? :(
00:22:06 * ehird` has to right now unfortunately
00:22:12 <GregorR> But in the exceedingly rare occasion when I'm forced to, I install Cygwin.
00:22:21 <ehird`> but nevertheless some sort of UNIX-based OS shall save the day!
00:22:30 <ehird`> it is a long story why i am not on the iMac over there right now
00:23:39 <oklopol> i'll install linux once i get a new computer, although i'm starting to hate windows so much it might happen before that...
00:23:50 <ehird`> haha, oklopol, this is unexpected for you
00:23:56 <ehird`> i thought you hated open source. :p
00:24:17 <oklopol> 1. i don't *hate* it, i'm more afraid of it.
00:24:17 <ehird`> (i might get an old thinkpad laptop, put debian and xmonad on... i could get one cheap)
00:24:26 <oklopol> 2. i've never liked windows
00:25:17 <GregorR> So. Gregor is getting a video watch. Isn't that cool?!?!?!?!!? :P
00:26:03 <ehird`> and can it run a browser?
00:26:07 <ehird`> i have only one thing to say
00:26:12 <lament> GregorR: what does that mean?
00:28:27 <GregorR> It means it's a watch that can play videos :)
00:28:35 <GregorR> (And MP3s, which is why I bought it :P )
00:28:59 <ehird`> GregorR: ok but DOES IT HAVE WIFI
00:29:18 <GregorR> ehird`: No, it is not a palmtop on your wrist :P
00:29:33 <ehird`> because a watch running cgi:irc
00:29:36 <ehird`> would be beyond the boundries of cool
00:29:58 <GregorR> No, it is not the GNU/Linux watch from IBM :P
00:30:06 <ehird`> damnit!! stop giving me IDEAS!
00:30:21 <ehird`> imagine a watch, that ran a real window manager
00:30:24 <ehird`> and ran real X11 programs
00:30:30 <ehird`> and had a real computer
00:30:34 <ehird`> it was a fucking WATCH
00:30:37 <ehird`> and it goes on your WRIST
00:30:44 <lament> ehird`: possibly the most useless thing ever?
00:30:53 <lament> GregorR: why the hell would you want to watch videos on your watch?
00:31:05 <GregorR> lament: I don't, I want an MP3 player on my watch :P
00:31:11 <ehird`> maybe even your FUCKING WRIST if you do odd things with your wrist...
00:31:32 <GregorR> lament: But all the MP3 player watches that didn't play videos had physical analog timepieces (wtf?)
00:32:05 <ehird`> GregorR: i am now, sometime, going to make a linux watch which runs X11
00:32:17 <ehird`> it will also have a flip-out mini keyboard
00:32:17 <GregorR> ehird`: Go talk to IBM. They already made one.
00:32:23 <ehird`> DOES THEIRS HAVE THE ABOVE?
00:32:32 <lament> GregorR: so you bought it for the mp3 player. Does that mean you'll plug headphones into your wrist watch?
00:32:35 <ehird`> does theirs have a screen relatively big?! (but still wrist-fitting)
00:32:53 <ehird`> because, mine would like
00:33:02 <ehird`> and, like, it would be cool.
00:33:09 <lament> ehird`: cool it would not be.
00:33:12 <ehird`> the watch would be SCRIPTABLE
00:33:21 <lament> GregorR: why not just get an mp3 player?
00:33:29 <ehird`> and you could CUSTOMIZE THE DISPLAY
00:33:49 <GregorR> lament: Because my PDA watch broke so I don't have anything nerdy in watch form factor? And the price was right.
00:34:07 <ehird`> ok, now the idea is fully formed
00:34:10 <ehird`> i will make the WATCHPUTER
00:34:17 <lament> GregorR: ah, so it's a status symbol as a geek?
00:34:18 <ehird`> it will have a fold-out tiny-keyboard
00:34:24 <ehird`> a rather big screen for a watch
00:34:33 <ehird`> customizable watch display
00:34:41 <ehird`> and IT WILL RUN X11 APPS
00:34:52 <lament> ehird`: girls will love it!
00:35:21 <lament> remember those watches with a calculator?
00:35:28 <lament> braces, pocket protector, and a watch with a calculator?
00:35:53 <bsmntbombdood> http://www.watchluxus.com/brands/nivrel/erotic_watches/erotica
00:36:53 <GregorR> bsmntbombdood: My video watch playing extremely low-resolution porn will be far higher-quality erotica :P
00:37:35 <GregorR> But it's bigger than QQVGA! :P
00:37:49 <lament> i think that's what my palm had
00:37:56 <ehird`> someone modernized the old emacs backronym
00:37:58 <GregorR> For a watch, it's pretty respectable. I downscaled a few videos and they're watchable *shrugs*
00:37:59 <lament> it's enough for reading books
00:38:09 <ehird`> Eight Megabytes and Constantly Swapping -> Eighty Megabytes and Constantly Swapping
00:38:35 <GregorR> ehird`: HEY! That's called PROGRESS.
00:39:02 <lament> i need to buy a watch, but i can't find one that looks decent
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00:41:23 <GregorR> If you won't go tech, go classique!
00:41:43 <oklopol> i want a chinese kid for a watch
00:42:03 <oklopol> imagine it ticking once a second!
00:46:31 <lament> pocket watches are awfully inconvenient, I already have a cellphone in my pocket that tells the time just fine
00:47:17 <oklopol> i wonder if you could learn to run a clock in your head
00:48:19 <lament> and not with any accuracy
00:49:14 <lament> bsmntbombdood: it's not that bad
00:49:18 <oklopol> i don't consider myself normal enough not to try that, i'll begin training tomorrow
00:49:46 <oklopol> haha, you think i can actually keep a routine going ;)
00:50:01 <oklopol> well, i've managed to do that sometimes, but it's very unlikely
00:50:10 <oklopol> although that would be an extremely cool thing to try
00:50:33 <lament> bsmntbombdood: cellphones are actually ridiculously convenient
00:50:52 <lament> if you don't want to be bothered, you can always just turn it off
00:52:38 <oklopol> hmm... i hope i get sdl working tomorrow, then i have a good 24 hours to code my circuit thingie :P
00:53:21 <bsmntbombdood> it would be easy enough to keep time by yourself in the foreground
00:54:12 <oklopol> hmm, i think i'll try timing a minute until i can always do that, then move to longer intervals
00:54:26 <oklopol> i usually get 57..1:03 when i try
00:55:27 <oklopol> hmm... doesn't really sound possible not to have *any* error, and it accumulates quite fast :|
00:56:07 <oklopol> perhaps i'll put a machine under my skin to gimme a little shock every 5 seconds
00:56:17 <oklopol> then i'll just learn to count them subconsciously
00:56:41 <lament> consider a machine on your wrist that tells you the time
00:57:04 <lament> a friend has a binary watch, that's kinda neat
00:57:19 <lament> http://www.thinkgeek.com/gadgets/watches/
00:57:44 <oklopol> i've been thinking of getting one myself
00:58:23 <oklopol> but i don't like wearing a watch
00:58:47 <lament> heh, http://www.thinkgeek.com/gadgets/watches/6dc1/
00:59:36 <lament> certainly not worth $600, though
00:59:49 <lament> bsmntbombdood: http://www.thinkgeek.com/gadgets/watches/74ce/
01:00:04 <lament> bsmntbombdood: get that one :)
01:00:17 <GregorR> Who the hell would buy that for $600 ...
01:00:48 * lament considers actually buying the slide rule watch
01:02:03 <pikhq> Someone short a real slide rule.
01:02:11 <GregorR> lament: It would be amusing to show that to somebody when they asked for the time ^^
01:02:26 <lament> the slide rule one, or the earth one?
01:02:47 <GregorR> It has so many numbers and hands, if you didn't know most of them aren't involved in telling time you would just be confused :)
01:02:50 <lament> anybody can tell time from it
01:03:01 <lament> eh, the hour and minute hands are obvious
01:03:53 <lament> oh, i see, that watch is specifically for pilots
01:04:09 <lament> hence the unit conversions
01:04:40 <GregorR> http://www.thinkgeek.com/gadgets/watches/954e/ <-- the watch I'm getting (for about half the price from a different site)
01:05:20 <lament> not sure if it qualifies as a "watch"
01:05:52 <GregorR> When you're not watching a video, it displays the time :P
01:05:56 <lament> http://www.thinkgeek.com/gadgets/watches/706f/
01:06:25 <lament> the only problem is that it's inaccurate
01:06:32 <lament> since you can't adjust latitude
01:06:43 <lament> it's fixed to the average latitude in the states
01:06:51 <GregorR> I wonder what "Japanese movement" means ...
01:06:53 <lament> will be a little optimistic for canada
01:07:03 <lament> still i'm seriously considering buying that
01:09:24 <lament> it's probably completely dark at night, though
01:09:31 <lament> "Swiss "Super Luminescent" dial that glows for 2-3 hours"
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01:11:38 <GregorR> Ironic if you can't read your starmap at night :P
01:22:43 <GregorR> bsmntbombdood: Sure. "bsmntbombdood"
01:26:17 <bsmntbombdood> don't touch your dick while there's hot sauce on your fingers
01:26:26 <bsmntbombdood> (unless you're in the mood for that sort of thing)
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01:45:45 <pikhq> GregorR: With watches, foo movement typically means that the mechanics were designed in foo.
01:45:58 <pikhq> For example, "Swiss movement" means that it's a Swiss watch.
01:46:06 <pikhq> (take with a grain of salt, though)
02:00:39 <RodgerTheGreat> I was sitting in my friend's room this afternoon, watching him play minesweeper, and I found myself with a tremendous urge to play the game myself. Unfortunately, I didn't have minesweeper on my computer...
02:00:47 <RodgerTheGreat> ... so I went ahead and wrote it: http://rodger.nonlogic.org/games/mines/
02:01:31 <RodgerTheGreat> this is an example of why being a programmer is awesome
02:03:04 <RodgerTheGreat> now I'm tempted to implement all the other games Windows 95 came with- jezzball, tetra-vex, tetris, ski-free, chip's challenge, rodent's revenge...
02:04:04 <pikhq> The question is, are you any good at Minesweeper?
02:09:14 <RodgerTheGreat> I have more fun with really dense minefields than with speedruns
02:14:42 <RodgerTheGreat> I should create a reality -TV show in which the survival of the contestants relies on their ability to play minesweeper
02:20:06 <RodgerTheGreat> maybe the audience would get to vote on the placement of some of the mines
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02:38:50 <pikhq> Why does Darcs have to be in Haskell?
02:39:12 <GregorR> For maximum obnoxiousity :)
02:39:45 <pikhq> I get the feeling that it's been an OS install since I've messed with Plof.
02:41:25 <pikhq> GHC takes forever to build.
02:54:40 <GregorR> {urpmi,apt-get install,yum install,yourfavoritepackagemanager install} darcs
03:02:42 <pikhq> And so, we return to GHC taking forever to build.
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06:18:00 <pikhq> http://pastebin.com/m5bd0d3f4
06:18:08 <pikhq> What the *fuck* was I thinking back then?
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09:02:43 <oklopol> minesweeper sucks in that there's always at least one fifty-fifty decision, where you simply cannot know where the mines are
09:08:21 <oklopol> played one expert just now, had to do 2 50-50 decision
09:43:11 <oklopol> RodgerTheGreat: i love it how you can check where the mines are if you're not sure ;)
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11:13:42 <ttm> You know what's lame about writing signature programs in C? Needing #include lines for standard library headers.
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13:11:33 <ttm> I've definitely got past the point of diminishing returns on ehird`'s signature challenge. As noted before, the #include lines really screw it up. http://www.hevanet.com/cristofd/siersig.c
13:12:51 * ehird` goes and checks logs to see if anyone else submitted... i doubt it
13:12:59 <ehird`> you probably win by default :-)
13:13:50 <ehird`> i think includes aren't counted, pikhq's quicksort didn't have any and it used lib functions :-)
13:14:36 <ttm> Warning...make sure line 6 contains three characters of value 128. I've found that this program can be damaged by copying and pasting it.
13:14:46 <ehird`> i wget'd it and it works
13:15:14 <ehird`> hehe, 20000 iterations... chaos game isn't a very efficient algorithm, is it? :-)
13:15:53 <ttm> (Didn't do a real test...but 9<<9 is not enough) :)
13:18:48 <ehird`> ircbrose.com is down? :S
13:23:05 <ehird`> 03:13:42 <ttm> You know what's lame about writing signature programs in C? Needing #include lines for standard library headers.
13:23:16 <ehird`> no C sig program i've seen has them, so :-)
13:27:32 <ehird`> anyway you win by default, haha
13:27:39 <ehird`> you'd probably win anyway, though
13:27:50 <ehird`> subtracting a string from a pointer? crazy
13:28:41 <ttm> I didn't do that :)
13:28:49 <ehird`> ok well whatever you did ;)
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15:56:15 <pikhq> ttm: If you don't include the header, then the prototype defaults to int foo(int,...); Also, C functions don't care *too* much about the right type getting passed.
15:56:46 <ehird`> crazy program, though, i still say
15:57:06 <pikhq> Besides which, putchar, srand, rand, and time all, in effect, take ints, anyways.
15:57:21 <pikhq> Otherwise, that's a fairly nice piece of work.
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15:57:48 <pikhq> Wait. . . We've got cristofd in here? w00ts!
15:58:22 <ehird`> (I didn't know that until this morning, though, I must mention, when I saw the URL :P)
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17:09:47 <ehird`> because, rule 1. you're not competetent enough to update it, keep it secure, and working all by yourself, rule 2. see rule 1
17:11:40 <bartw> it is not retarded
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17:21:51 <ehird`> when in msys do not type rm -rf c:/Program\ Files then hit enter instead of tab
17:24:31 <RodgerTheGreat> in case anyone was stumped by the "find the differences" from a while back, here's the solution: http://nonlogic.org/dump/images/1193502210-diffsol.png
17:24:50 <ehird`> i thought they were identical?
17:26:08 <ehird`> anyway i don't have the link to the differences themselves so what's the point
17:27:24 <ehird`> but i can't remember the differences image, so
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18:15:02 <oklopol> RodgerTheGreat: can you link the ftd from last week?
18:29:25 <ehird`> well.. it's not really that funny
18:30:45 <ehird`> oklopol: the images are 100% identical, but the solution has an image with many differences
18:32:41 <ehird`> wow, gtk isn't as shitty as i thought
19:06:26 <oklopol> if kazakstan is anything like what it is in borat, why don't i live there
19:42:48 <ehird`> i still can't comprehend ttm's sierpinski program :-)
19:45:49 <ttm> What part?
19:46:04 <ehird`> i think maybe i'm approaching my reading of it from the wrong direction
19:46:50 <ehird`> hmm you could shave a few bytes off by removing unneccessary ;s :P
19:49:19 <ttm> Not legal C.
19:49:39 <ehird`> i know that ;) -> ) is
19:49:43 <ehird`> for (x;y;z) is perfectly valid
19:49:50 <ehird`> i might be wrong about {ab} but i think i'm right
19:50:33 <ttm> Most of those in the program are "for(x;y;)" which is valid, but "for(x;y)" is not.
19:52:13 <ttm> And in C, ; is a terminator not a separator. I'm actually trying not to rely on GCC-specific quirks--besides, GCC won't even allow these.
19:52:34 <ttm> If it were Javascript I would have taken them out :)
19:53:32 <ttm> I did shorten it a bit more though.
20:01:58 <ehird`> bsmntbom1dood: [everybody gasps]
20:05:10 <oklopol> still haven't gotten sdl to work :D
20:05:11 <ttm> Okay. Breaking the lines in less intuitive places now.
20:05:30 <ttm> Relax, most of it's still in the same order.
20:05:50 <oklopol> tried dev-cpp, it gives a few linker errors, i've found multiple sources that tell how it's fixed, but nothing helps :DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD
20:06:02 <ttm> It's now four lines even with the stdlib which we NEED for the value of RAND_MAX.
20:06:11 <ttm> If we want this puppy vaguely portable.
20:06:23 <ehird`> oklopol: why don't you just install mingw? it has an installer :P
20:06:34 <ehird`> and you have no confusing cygwin package manager, you just compile the software your self
20:06:38 <ehird`> dev-cpp just uses mingw
20:06:41 <ttm> I'm also hesitating to replace the character constants with their ASCII values, again for portability.
20:06:49 <ehird`> when i said mingw i meant mingw+msys
20:06:58 <ehird`> but dev-cpp is kinda monolithic
20:07:11 <ehird`> ttm: name one platform used today that isn't ascii and could compile that code? :p
20:07:23 <ehird`> oklopol: yeah! EDItilla! but that's my editor, that isn't done yet. damn.
20:07:29 <ehird`> oklopol: but when it is done, it will be awesome!
20:07:43 <ttm> What's "today"? It should compile and run correctly almost anywhere ANSI C is accepted.
20:07:47 <oklopol> i'm not sure what you mean by monolithic, but the only problem with dev-cpp is i can't get sdl to compile.
20:10:39 <ttm> Of course, if the C code itself were translated to another character set, you'd have to reset three characters to whatever is 128 in that set.
20:19:11 <oklopol> ehird`: i couldn't get gcc to compile c++, even though the man said it will automatically compile .cpp files as c++
20:19:21 <oklopol> what might the reason for this be?
20:20:31 <ehird`> because you need to link it
20:21:36 <ehird`> it compiles c++ programs
20:23:24 <oklopol> hmm... so... i should try installing sdl to what next?
20:23:40 <oklopol> i already have it on dev-cpp, isn't that the same thing? :)
20:24:34 <oklopol> dev-cpp won't link it... should i try mingw without it?
20:24:49 <oklopol> i don't get how this can be so hard
20:25:03 <ehird`> because you're doing it wrong.
20:25:17 <ehird`> 1. don't compile sdl yourself on windows
20:25:17 <ehird`> 3. don't compile it with an ide
20:25:22 <oklopol> if it's easy, it can't be done wrong
20:25:41 <oklopol> err... i'm not compiling the actual sdl, i'm trying to compile a program that includes sdl
20:26:26 <ehird`> do you have sdl installed and it in your linker settings
20:27:20 <oklopol> undefined reference to '__cpu_features_init'
20:27:31 <ehird`> you fucked up your sdl compile
20:27:32 <oklopol> undefined reference to 'SDL_strlcopy'
20:28:02 <oklopol> i just put the sdl files in the folder they belong to
20:30:16 <oklopol> http://gpwiki.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=7037&sid=696456490c4f83d2627d03be5ad924c7 i followed the explanation here
20:32:02 <ehird`> C:\Dev-cpp\bin <contains> ... SDL.dll
20:32:02 <ehird`> C:\Dev-cpp\include\SDL <contains> ... allSDL.H files
20:32:02 <ehird`> C:\Dev-cpp\lib <contains> ... lib SDL.la ... libSDL.dll.a ... libSDLmain.a
20:32:05 <ehird`> check those files are there
20:32:55 <oklopol> i did exactly what hugh says there
20:33:09 <ehird`> then ask somewhere where people know
20:33:10 <oklopol> also regarding what he says later
20:33:37 <oklopol> i've already given up hope, just bothering you for fun i guess.
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22:29:08 <oerjan> pikhq: building ghc from source is not recommended unless you are modifying it
22:29:22 <ehird`> oerjan: i build ghc from source
22:29:44 <ehird`> a build I compiled myself will always taste sweeter than a third-party binary :-)
22:29:52 <oerjan> i'm talking about the speed (btw i don't have ghc myself)
22:31:26 <ehird`> compilign it or ghc performance itself?
22:31:41 <ehird`> if latter, i'm pretty sure optimization is on by default ;)
22:31:48 <ehird`> if former, pff, i can wait an hour every now and then
22:34:45 <GregorR> oerjan: You can't beat sense into Gentoo'rs.
22:34:52 <GregorR> oerjan: It just can't be done.
22:36:35 <oerjan> i understand that even Gentoo needs a ghc binary to start the process
22:36:49 <oerjan> since ghc is written in haskell
22:37:37 <ehird`> i've always wondered about that... what would happen if everyone who hosted a binary of ghc suddenly died?
22:37:46 <ehird`> you'd have to manually port ghc to some other language and compile ghc with it
22:37:58 <ehird`> not a very secure roadmap :-)
22:38:14 <lament> what would happen if everyone who hosted a binary of gcc died?
22:38:34 <ehird`> can't gcc compile itself with another compiler as a bootstrap?
22:38:49 <ehird`> doesn't it use #ifdef __GNUC__ for the gcc-only bits?
22:41:53 <GregorR> Can't other Haskells run/compile GHC?
22:42:05 <ehird`> it uses ghc extensions
22:42:14 <ehird`> (hilarious, isn't it?)
22:42:33 <ehird`> i think i might go and write a compiler by banging on my keyboard repeatedly
22:42:48 <ehird`> when someone claims it could never compile anything, i'll ask them if they'd compiled it with itself first
22:43:16 <ehird`> for anyone asking information about the language, i'd tell them that the implementation is the spec
22:44:02 <bsmntbom1dood> unless you were rms, in which case thousands of greasy nerds around the world would hack nonstop untill they made it work
22:44:13 <bsmntbom1dood> and then they would praise you for your genius work
22:44:39 <ehird`> "first we deleted all of it, then we added a text editor"
22:46:47 <ehird`> linus once said that if you went over 4 levels of indentation, your code is broken and we should fix it... who's gonna write the program to analyze how many times it happens and where in C code and run it on the kernel?
22:49:41 <ehird`> yeah, in his coding guidelines for... the linux kernel
22:52:16 <GregorR> Coding guidelines are just that: guidelines. That just means that if you're that deeply indented, you ought to think about whether that's appropriate or if you should refactor.
22:52:46 <ehird`> "your code is broken and you should fix it"
22:52:49 <ehird`> that's more of a commandment ;)
22:53:24 <pikhq> oerjan: It's Gentoo building GHC, not me. ;)
22:53:33 <ehird`> it's actually 3 levels
22:53:35 <ehird`> "The answer to that is that if you need more than 3 levels of indentation, you're screwed anyway, and should fix your program. "
22:53:37 <GregorR> WTF? In the power outage I had list night, my Gaim lost its profile???
22:53:52 <ehird`> source http://pantransit.reptiles.org/prog/CodingStyle.html
22:54:24 <ehird`> indeed, but i have found those guidelines to be very good for c
22:54:44 <ehird`> "First off, I'd suggest printing out a copy of the GNU coding standards, and not read it. Burn them, it's a great symbolic gesture." is the only thing i follow /religiously/ though :-)
22:54:52 <pikhq> ehird`: IIRC, ghc includes a small Haskell compiler in C, which bootstraps GHC itself. . .
22:55:08 <ehird`> its compilation process downloads a bootstrap
22:55:26 <GregorR> I've just always thought the half-indentation is amusing :P
22:55:37 <ehird`> so THEYROCK is satirical?
22:55:53 <ehird`> func (args); has to be the most braindead thing ever
22:55:57 <ehird`> you can almost hear rms going
22:56:11 <ehird`> "i wish i used one of those lisp machine thingymagics instead of this you-nix, i liked those parens"
22:56:52 <GregorR> "Thingymagics" sounds hawt.
23:00:13 <pikhq> GregorR: Not quite.
23:00:38 <GregorR> You didn't do the spacing right - the braces are supposed to be half-indented.
23:00:58 <pikhq> Not when defining a function.
23:04:06 <ehird`> i haaate scripting languages
23:04:07 <GregorR> OK, so I don't know the GNU coding conventions :P
23:04:28 <ehird`> python is slow, lua's "end"s are ugly (but it is very fast, more so with luajit)...
23:04:47 <ehird`> perl is slow, unmaintainable and ugly, and yeck (this will change in perl 6, though)
23:05:16 <ehird`> plof doesn't really look usable for day to day stuff to me
23:05:36 <ehird`> it's just a bit too foreign imho
23:05:44 <ehird`> although it is interesting
23:05:48 <ehird`> I might contribute a C interpreter :-)
23:06:06 <ehird`> (since D can be pretty slow, etc., and language implementation can be quite low level)
23:06:06 <GregorR> Plof3 is entirely different from Plof2.
23:06:16 <ehird`> you still have not shown me any example Plof3 code
23:06:35 <GregorR> Any example of Plof2 code is also an example of Plof3 code at the moment (I haven't worked on the user language yet)
23:06:38 <GregorR> It's the guts that are different.
23:07:16 <ehird`> how functional is plof?
23:07:24 <ehird`> haskell functional not usable functional
23:07:32 <pikhq> GregorR: I could in either GNU coding standards or K&R standards. . .
23:07:46 <ehird`> pikhq: you use the gnu standards? D:
23:07:50 <ehird`> pikhq: you shall be killed
23:07:57 <GregorR> ehird`: Well, it's certainly not pure :P. Functions are first-class and closures etc are possible, but it's definitely an imperative language.
23:07:59 <ehird`> i hate your code and wish for its demise
23:08:17 <ehird`> GregorR: show me a factorial with "reduce"
23:08:58 <pikhq> GregorR: Have we *done* reduce?
23:09:18 <GregorR> I don't really have an implementation of it, no, but it's certainly implementable.
23:09:31 <ehird`> no reduce/map by default?
23:09:50 <GregorR> There's barely a standard library at all.
23:09:57 <GregorR> I'm a language designer, not a standard library designer.
23:10:15 <ehird`> bah, ok, show me a recursive factorial i guess :|
23:11:00 <GregorR> fact = (x):{ if(:{x == 1}, {x}, {x * fact(x-1)}) };
23:11:17 <ehird`> ok, so you have to use the lambda to define a function
23:11:27 <ehird`> that's not ideal IMO, even a little syntactic sugar would be nice
23:11:49 <ehird`> X(Y) = { ... } -> X = (Y):{ ... }
23:11:53 <ehird`> it's a tiny transformation
23:11:58 <ehird`> and a lot nicer loooking imo
23:12:07 <ehird`> also, it still makes "sense" - you're telling it what X(Y) means
23:12:09 <pikhq> But how do you differentiate between thick and thin functions?
23:12:22 <pikhq> (x){ ... } != (x):{ ... };
23:12:25 * GregorR intends to fix thick and thin functions at some point :P
23:12:29 <ehird`> what's the difference, pikhq
23:12:57 <GregorR> ehird`: Return semantics. Thin functions return from their associated thick function. It allows all blocks to be functions. It is a feature that will go away :P
23:13:13 <GregorR> It's like methods-vs-blocks in Smalltalk.
23:13:14 <pikhq> It's how "if" and such are implemented ATM.
23:13:43 <pikhq> if(:{x}, {return x});
23:14:03 <GregorR> ehird`: If is a function, you pass it three functions. But, if one of the functions you pass it returns, then the function calling if returns. That makes imperative programming more comfortable, since it does what an imperative programmer expects.
23:14:37 <ehird`> GregorR: yes, i gathered that if was a function. and i get it now
23:14:42 <pikhq> The {return x} function returns x *through* the if, and through the stack, until it returns from a thick function. . .
23:14:42 <ehird`> that sounds like a VERY ugly hack :-)
23:14:56 <GregorR> ehird`: It is. I painted myself into a corner. It will not be around by the time Plof3 is finalized.
23:14:59 <pikhq> It works, but *man* it's ugly.
23:15:11 <ehird`> how is it implemented? please tell me instead of just overriding return, you set the thin function's closure to the enclosing thick one's
23:15:18 <ehird`> so how do you resolve it anyway in plof3?
23:16:02 <GregorR> ehird`: It's just an implementation detail of how 'return' is implemented - it pops up the call stack until it finds a thick function.
23:16:18 <GregorR> Anyway, please, ignore thick-vs-thin, IT'S GOING AWAY
23:16:42 <ehird`> Yes but how do you resolve the issue? ;)
23:16:53 <GregorR> I don't have a resolution yet.
23:17:01 <GregorR> My point is I won't be satisfied until I do ^^
23:17:20 <ehird`> i'm not sure what my perfect language would be
23:17:25 <ehird`> it'd probably include runtime-editable syntax
23:18:08 <ehird`> that is, it'll have a syntax for defining - using the language itself with some sugar for the definitions - new syntax, which can do arbitary transformations - replace code with some other code, execute code at expand-time, etc
23:18:14 <ehird`> an ability to modify previous syntax
23:18:27 <pikhq> If you hate yourself, you could implement longjmp, Gregor. :p
23:18:40 <ehird`> in this way, the "if" syntax would just be sugar for calling if_ (or similar)
23:19:16 <GregorR> ehird`: FYI, you're still defining Plof3.
23:19:28 <GregorR> ehird`: Plof3 is a small stack-language with a runtime parser sitting on top of it.
23:19:36 <ehird`> can plof3 handle INDENTATION-BASED SYNTAX?
23:19:45 <ehird`> because it sends spaces at the beginning of lines as INDENT tokens?!
23:19:55 <ehird`> (and of course DEDENT tokens)
23:20:06 <pikhq> I believe it could.
23:20:10 <GregorR> Tokenization is also defined at runtime.
23:20:18 <ehird`> (python does this too, so basically all you need to do is change "{" to INDENT and "}" to DEDENT)
23:20:33 <GregorR> Plof3's normal user language would just ignore all whitespace, but you can define one that doesn't.
23:20:53 <ehird`> ok well as i can see it you have two seperate languages
23:21:01 <ehird`> stack-based-metalanguage and Plof3
23:21:18 <ehird`> when you say Plof3 you really mean the latter because Plof3 is really entirely defined as that, since the other language is basically unrelateds
23:21:24 <ehird`> so these aren't plof3 features
23:21:33 <pikhq> GregorR: BTW, Plof2 *does* have map.
23:21:35 <ehird`> it's like calling brainfuck with a c interface having all the features of C :-)
23:21:56 <pikhq> (random collection).map(); ;)
23:22:16 <GregorR> ehird`: The grammar engine is entirely modifiable within Plof3 code. If you want to change Plof3's grammar, it's all available to you.
23:22:40 * GregorR has no idea what your complaint is *shrugs*
23:23:08 <pikhq> var foo = new(List);foo.map((x){return({x+1});});
23:23:28 <GregorR> pikhq: I did implement map in my collections? Well, ehird`: there ya go! :P
23:23:41 <GregorR> I'm so focused on Plof3, Plof2 is becoming a distant memory.
23:24:43 <oerjan> "and here in the corner of the channel you have GregorR, who actually constructed a nearly usable language called Plof2 before he went off the deep end with his theories."
23:25:54 <ehird`> i might implement my nice language some time, but without the crazy syntax definitions
23:26:33 <ehird`> i'll make it fast (so you can run reasonably complex programs with it without being much slower than C - for sufficiently large values of "without being much slower") and bind a few libraries to it
23:26:52 <ehird`> the problem with most of my langugae ideas is that they don't work well on a single line
23:26:57 <ehird`> indentation-based blocks, etc
23:27:18 <ehird`> and since one of my goals is to implement a language i find nice, and write an irc bot in it, with daemons programmable in it, that kind of sucks :-)
23:30:14 <ehird`> i can't think of any block syntax that works well on one line apart from lisps s-exprsessions :|
23:30:33 <oerjan> you could borrow haskell's layout <-> { ; } equivalence
23:31:21 <ehird`> right but c-style blocks are pretty ugly on one line
23:31:37 <oerjan> although the parse-error rule which allows you to leave out more { } may be a bit too hairy
23:31:49 <ehird`> if (x) { while (y) { a; b; c }; if (z) { 2 + 2 } } elseif (g) { ... }
23:31:53 <ehird`> uglyyyy and not readable on one line
23:31:56 <oerjan> and it certainly doesn't work with redefinable syntax
23:32:06 <ehird`> no redefinable syntax for this i think
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23:34:13 <ehird`> i guess i could implement if x (y) (z) as an alternate if syntax
23:34:19 <ehird`> but i hate two solutions for one problem in syntax
23:35:25 <oerjan> you could make all parentheses expandable into layout
23:35:35 <ehird`> i don't want to have layout though
23:36:16 <oerjan> um, layout = indentation-based blocks, in haskell
23:36:52 <ehird`> i want some tangible syntax i think
23:41:54 <ehird`> GregorR: any suggestions, you being the crazy language guy? :P
23:42:55 <pikhq> Make it syntaxless. :p
23:43:00 <oerjan> excuse me? are you trying to insult everyone else in the channel?
23:43:11 <ehird`> oerjan: hahaha, i forgot this was #esoteric
23:43:22 <ehird`> pikhq: i actually have a language called syntaxless :p
23:44:52 <ehird`> it has one lexical rule but no syntactical rules
23:45:11 <ehird`> (the lexical rule is "read any number of characters seperated by spaces, tabs or newlines")
23:45:20 <ehird`> syntactical rules would mean it has syntax like nesting, etc.
23:45:26 <ehird`> mine just has one lexical rule, which isn't really syntax
23:50:46 <ehird`> GregorR: but seriously :-)
23:56:48 <ehird`> pikhq: ok, you were talking about plof too. what about you? :P