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00:08:11 <Sgeo> Hi RedDak, bsmntbom1dood, oerjan, importantshock, and PancakeHouse..
00:08:38 <Sgeo> Just saying hi while ignoring the timestamps completely :/
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01:31:08 <ihope_> Gasp! Who smiled at me?
01:42:24 <pikhq> ehird`: Any progress on pebble.pebble?
01:44:43 <bsmntbombdood> this song goes duh duh duh, duh duh duh duh duh duh
01:45:50 <oerjan> Ritorna Vincitor from Aida?
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01:58:06 <RodgerTheGreat> pikhq: I am extremely curious to see how the self-hosting pebble implementation fares
02:05:25 <RodgerTheGreat> I'd hazard a loose guess somewhere around 6mb of BF code
02:05:48 <pikhq> Although I find that PEBBLE code manages to be a bit more efficient than BFBASIC. . .
02:06:02 <pikhq> (lower level, though)
02:08:22 <RodgerTheGreat> a text adventure game written in calamari's astounding BFBASIC
02:09:37 <RodgerTheGreat> http://jonripley.com/i-fiction/games/LostKingdomBF.html
02:11:26 <pikhq> It inspired my little bit of a game in PEBBLE.
02:11:41 <pikhq> My engine kicks ass, but my game lacks. . . Anything. :p
02:13:46 <RodgerTheGreat> if you want some help coming up with an actual story or something, I might be able to help
02:15:10 <pikhq> I may desire that some time when I have time. . .
02:15:30 <pikhq> Perhaps Christmas break, or Thanksgiving break, would be a good time to write & implement that.
02:16:24 <RodgerTheGreat> I'll brainstorm some stuff over thanksgiving, but as a general policy I don't connect to the internet while I'm on vacation
02:16:44 <RodgerTheGreat> I generally code something amazing in my self-induced isolation
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03:00:37 * pikhq votes for scaring the hell out of cpressey
03:00:54 * oerjan refuses to scare a Great One
03:01:09 <pikhq> cpressey == Great One?
03:01:38 <cpressey> http://catseye.tc/cpressey/languages.html
03:02:39 * pikhq makes the bow deeper. . .
03:03:51 <oerjan> hm, ALPACA is not mentioned on the Chris Pressey page on the wiki.
03:05:59 * pikhq goes back to wondering how ehird is going to pull off PEBBLE in PEBBLE.
03:06:08 <oerjan> well ihope_'s redivider and ehird's plan to self-host PEBBLE seems the current rages
03:06:51 <cpressey> i've been out of the loop for a while
03:07:12 <pikhq> Given that I've never seen you here before, and I've been here for over a year, I'd say so. ;)
03:08:27 <cpressey> i have a good excuse... i was busy finishing up my degree :)
03:08:35 <oerjan> i've seen cpressey do some wiki posting
03:08:55 <lament> cpressey: done studying?
03:08:55 <pikhq> Hmm. . . Someone who has *not* heard of PEBBLE yet. :p
03:09:20 <cpressey> i'm currently stuck in southern ontario, but i got a laptop and have been working on esolangs.
03:09:28 <oerjan> oh dear. cpressey, RUN!
03:09:43 <cpressey> lament: yep, i don't officially graduate until december, but i've completed my requirements
03:10:16 <oerjan> <pikhq> Hmm. . . Someone who has *not* heard of PEBBLE yet. :p
03:10:18 <cpressey> pikhq: btw, there doesn't seem to be an eso wiki entry for PEBBLE
03:10:31 <lament> cpressey: which university do you graduate from?
03:10:39 <pikhq> (too lazy to write one. . .)
03:10:48 <cpressey> lament: was that a trick question? :)
03:11:03 <pikhq> PEBBLE is a Brainfuck-targetting macro language I've devised. I'm kinda proud of it.
03:11:18 <cpressey> although i guess i had credits from before... but it's the university you finish at that counts
03:11:33 <lament> cpressey: i thought maybe you changed universities again, if you're in southern ontario
03:12:00 <cpressey> lament: ah, i see. no, i'm in ON for completely different reasons.
03:12:18 <pikhq> Now if we can get Gregor to talk, we can have a party of esolang designers. :p
03:12:36 <cpressey> wouter showed up on here once too
03:12:39 <pikhq> (and our local dieties, for that matter)
03:12:47 <cpressey> but it was once, and it was while i was asleep
03:13:00 <lament> he used to be a regular
03:13:28 <bsmntbombdood> Acme super-fiber drinks and shakes keep me regular!
03:13:43 <lament> maybe not regular, but he showed up more than once :D
03:13:53 <RodgerTheGreat> I humbly offer this piece of syntax: [clear 1 disp 0 1 !fibo] :run [copy rollup add copy disp copy 144 nequ [!fibo] if] :fibo !run
03:14:28 <pikhq> I offer this syntax instead: source ^stdcons.bfm;@ temp1;@ temp2;stringout "Hello, world!\n" : temp1 temp2
03:15:32 <cpressey> wow, i have no gnarly syntax to offer in return
03:15:42 <lament> cpressey: have you looked at all the nonsense about the wolfram research prize?
03:17:01 <lament> cpressey: it seems there's a question of whether to allow infinite initial conditions, and if so then of what kind
03:17:21 <pikhq> Ask ais523 if he shows up again.
03:17:28 <cpressey> oh, you have my blessings, except that i feel like i'm in "life of brian" or something
03:18:05 <lament> cpressey: like, a game-of-life turing machine emulator probably needs an infinite tape
03:18:11 <oerjan> infinite initial conditions seem fair enough, it was used for wolfram's r110 as well but there i think it was simply repeating in each direction
03:18:12 <lament> cpressey: so it seems fair to allow that
03:18:15 <cpressey> lament: yeah, i think i thought about that at some point in the summer
03:18:21 <RodgerTheGreat> sweet, now I can add "BLESSED BY A GREAT ONE" to the Sprocket manual.
03:18:50 <cpressey> lament: but there need to be limits on what the infinite initial configuration is
03:18:52 <lament> oerjan: well, if you allow arbitrary infinite initial conditions, then the halting problem can be solved trivially
03:19:10 <lament> so it's a question of how much to allow
03:19:42 * pikhq adds "Blessed by 2 Great Ones" to the PEBBLE docs
03:19:45 <cpressey> i could accept something that can be recognized by a regular expression or maybe even a CFG
03:19:54 * pikhq calls oerjan a great one. :p
03:20:00 <lament> in that case smetana is turing-complete
03:20:42 <lament> you just need infinitely big programs, consisting mostly of identical, except for the numbers that are all shifted equal amount, chunks corresponding to "memory cells"
03:20:51 <cpressey> lament: we've been over this :) the problem is that a smetana program only has a finite number of instructions. i grant you that if there were an infinite number, it could be
03:21:07 <cpressey> lament: we seem to be on the same track
03:21:10 <lament> cpressey: if you allow infinite starting conditions, that's equivalent to allowing infinite programs
03:21:47 <cpressey> lament: ok, maybe we need to clarify something. i have no idea what the wolfram research thingy is, for example
03:22:03 <cpressey> so i might be speaking without knowing what we're talking about exactly
03:22:10 <lament> wolfram wanted a proof that some turing machine is universal
03:22:15 <lament> http://www.wolframscience.com/prizes/tm23/solved.html
03:22:24 <lament> a guy from #esoteric (ais523) proved it
03:23:35 <lament> it's an interesting question, how much complexity can you put in infinite conditions
03:23:50 <lament> clearly "the memory is initialized as an infinite stack of zeros" is perfectly fine :)
03:23:56 <cpressey> man, i did not need to be reminded about how fatuous wolfram is
03:24:22 <cpressey> damn, i can't type quickly enough on this toy kbd
03:24:39 <cpressey> this is the same problem with wolfram's CA - i noticed it earlier
03:25:02 <cpressey> his CA is not TC because there's one thing that a TM can do that his CA can't - that is, halt
03:25:29 <cpressey> he's seriously distorting the definition of Turing-complete by claiming that rule 110 is TC
03:25:50 <lament> yeah, you need an observer smart enough to realize that it "halted"
03:25:56 <lament> together the system is obviously TC
03:26:15 <cpressey> lament: exactly, you need a halting predicate, and implementing that predicate *will take more states* if not more symbols
03:26:38 <pikhq> One could argue that having the cellular automaton stabilise is 'halting'.
03:26:44 <cpressey> bsmntbombdood: not very smart, but just smart enough to make his machine bigger than minksy's :)
03:27:09 <cpressey> pikhq: how do you know that it's stabilized, though?
03:27:43 <oerjan> i'm sure there is some finite automaton to check each generation, isn't there?
03:28:04 <cpressey> actually, this ties in with something else i've been thinking about regarding TM's - they don't need infinte tapes, only expanding tapes.
03:28:39 <pikhq> The two are, for all intents and purposes, the same. . .
03:28:47 <lament> yes, and smetana doesn't need infinite programs, only expanding programs :)
03:28:53 <cpressey> in this case, you can think of an 'initial pattern' as being generated on the tape, every time you extend it
03:29:04 <cpressey> and for that you need some kind of mechanism. more states.
03:29:22 <bsmntbombdood> infinitely expanding tape, which is pretty much the same thing
03:29:38 <cpressey> pikhq, bsmntbombdood: yes. they're equivalent.
03:30:03 * pikhq comments on #esoteric being much more educational than high school. . .
03:30:13 <cpressey> it's mainly tradition that keeps the description of a TM starting off with "Well it has this infinte tape you see, and..."
03:31:07 <cpressey> i mean there's good reasons for it to not have a limit
03:31:35 <cpressey> i agree that ther are definate problems with wolfram's 2,3 machine's "universality"
03:32:21 <cpressey> i would maybe be OK with it being called a kind of universality, but it's not the kind that's used in computabilty theory
03:33:06 <cpressey> in computability theory, people are concerned with decision problems, and semi-decision problems, and that stuff. if you can't halt, though, you can't decide anything.
03:33:54 <lament> i still think smetana is tc :D
03:34:10 <cpressey> lament: fine. for you, it's TC :)
03:34:24 <cpressey> i'll add that stipulation to the language definition :)
03:35:12 <lament> if we allow infinitely repeating initial conditions
03:35:27 <lament> then the only reason _against_ it being TC is if we for some reason treat code differently from data
03:35:32 <bsmntbombdood> can a fsm be turing complete if it has infinite states?
03:35:43 <lament> bsmntbombdood: it can't be a fsm :)
03:35:49 <cpressey> lament: i'm actually perfectly OK with there being a tiny variation on smetana (like, to give it the ability to make new instructions) to let it be TC, but i'd sort of prefer that that variation have a diferent name
03:36:09 <oerjan> bsmntbombdood: since the states could include the whole content of a turing tape, yes
03:36:32 <cpressey> pikhq: how about "Etanasmay"? :)
03:36:33 <oerjan> um, i already named it Smetana+1
03:36:41 <lament> cpressey: but why? what's wrong with my logic?
03:37:14 <cpressey> lament: your logic... well, is smallfuck TC?
03:37:23 <lament> cpressey: if we allow infinitely repeating initial conditions for CA, might as well allow them for smetana.
03:37:43 <cpressey> oerjan: i must've missed that.
03:37:52 <lament> after which it can interpret regular brainfuck
03:37:52 <oerjan> was on the mailing list
03:38:27 <cpressey> lament: BUT... CA are generally defined to have *unbounded* playfields. SMETANA is not. like most programming language, the program is assumed to be of fixed size during execution.
03:38:33 <lament> cpressey: the only problem with that is "you can't have infinitely big programs", but how's that different from having infinite starting conditions for a CA?
03:38:48 <cpressey> oerjan: i unsubscribed to it ages ago.
03:39:10 <lament> i'm still subscribed, haven't received any mail in many years
03:39:45 <cpressey> wow, that busy huh? mailing lists were a lot more interesting in the earlier days of the internet than they are now
03:40:36 <oerjan> hm, there's been activity on the esolangs forum
03:40:36 <cpressey> lament: it's not that you can't have infinitely long programs, it's that SMETANA isn't defined for them.
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03:41:11 <cpressey> lament: unlike most CA, which, being mathematical beasts, are a bit more flexible, i suppose you could say.
03:41:25 <oerjan> first new post starts with "I wish this forum was more active." :S
03:41:28 <lament> cpressey: so a language just like smetana but allowing infinitely long programs is 1) turing complete 2) capable of being interpreted by, for example, CA, since they allow the entire smetana program to be given as starting conditions
03:41:29 <cpressey> i haven't looked at the forum either
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03:41:55 <oerjan> it's not usually very active.
03:42:15 <cpressey> lament: in fact, the programs can be infinitely long and blank in all but a finite number of instructions, i thin
03:42:33 <lament> smetana doesn't have blank instructions!
03:42:40 <cpressey> "blank" in SMETANA being something like, Step n. Go to step n. aybe?
03:42:41 <lament> "blank" doesn't even mean anything
03:43:16 <oerjan> cpressey: no, you need the ability to change infinitely many steps, which means there needs to be Swaps referring to them.
03:43:16 <cpressey> "blank" in the sense of "not useful" (unlike the starting configuration of a CA, where you might want an exquisite infinite pattern)
03:44:01 <cpressey> haven't given it much thought, honestly, it's just that lament keeps bugging me about it :)
03:44:33 <oerjan> alternatively, i went one step further with Moldau which really only needs Goto, but where labels are general data structures
03:45:28 <cpressey> oerjan: excellent. i really have been out of the loop
03:45:55 <oerjan> well i never implemented either... as usual.
03:46:25 <cpressey> no wiki entry for Moldau either
03:46:45 <oerjan> it was only on the mailing list too
03:48:30 <cpressey> i've been on an abstact algebra kick lately
03:48:56 <pikhq> I've been on a calculus kick for the past year, myself.
03:49:30 <cpressey> pikhq: managed to work any of it into an esolang? :)
03:50:07 <cpressey> there's some stuff that steve smale (famous-pants mathematician) has done regarding computability in the reals that's kind of interesting
03:50:29 <cpressey> penrose made some remark about how the mandelbrot set is uncomputable or something
03:50:54 * pikhq *must* now make an esolang that nobody else in his high school will understand
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03:51:19 <bsmntbombdood> if anyone in your high school understands brainfuck, you've got a crazy ass highschool
03:51:23 <cpressey> pikhq: i found it interesting that taking derivatives is basicall mechanical but taking antiderivates is... well, not
03:51:35 <pikhq> I'm the guy that understands Brainfuck. :)
03:51:36 <cpressey> but otherwise i suck at calculus
03:51:51 <pikhq> cpressey: I'm quite good at calculus.
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03:52:32 <pikhq> I'm not much of a Knight of the Lambda Calculus.
03:52:37 <pikhq> (although I'd love to be one)
03:53:13 <cpressey> now there's a though. try to merge lambda calculus with calculus (real-analysis "regular ol'" calculus)
03:53:22 <bsmntbombdood> i be willing to wager a few day's wages that i'm the only one at my high school that understands unlambda
03:53:33 <pikhq> bsmntbombdood: As would I.
03:53:37 <pikhq> I make $0.00 a day.
03:54:18 <cpressey> lament: are you going to graduate soon, as well?
03:54:54 <cpressey> and does jeffrey johnston still hang out here?
03:56:02 <cpressey> i see GregorR and jix and mtve in the userlist, so there's some regulars from days gone by still here it seems
03:57:12 <cpressey> GregorR: hello, hat-wearing moxie-guzzling fellow
03:57:24 * GregorR hasn't had Moxie in far too long :( :( :(
03:57:50 <lament> cpressey: yeah, done courses in december, graduating in may
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04:00:13 <cpressey> http://catseye.tc/projects/burro/
04:00:30 <cpressey> that's what i've been doing lately.
04:00:42 <cpressey> actually, i've been doing it off and on for the past 2 years
04:01:06 <cpressey> followed by http://catseye.tc/projects/cabra/
04:01:47 <cpressey> excuse the awkward presentation - i am no mathematician
04:01:54 <oerjan> ah, reversible programming
04:02:32 <cpressey> that was sort of an unforseen side-effect of making it a group
04:03:29 <cpressey> and burro programs don't really get reversed so much as they get... annihilated. it's not like they're "rewound", it's more like they never existed (the semantics cancel out to get NOP)
04:03:56 <cpressey> lament: well, i was thinking "potro", but vaca is a good suggestion too
04:04:19 <cpressey> if there is a next one. i'm a bit burnt out on abstract algebra now
04:07:14 <cpressey> RodgerTheGreat: jeez, no wiki entry for Sprocket either?!? :)
04:08:12 <cpressey> RodgerTheGreat: is there a doc i can download somewhere?
04:09:17 <cpressey> RodgerTheGreat: ah... so that's the syntax you sent earlier... gotcha
04:10:18 <cpressey> and dare I ask pikhq about PEBBLE?
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04:17:19 <oerjan> http://pikhq.nonlogic.org/esoteric.php
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04:22:43 <cpressey> quite a few languages added to the wiki, too. nice.
04:28:06 <pikhq> At least one of them is mine.
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04:42:12 * pikhq cheers, for Plof no longer has the thick-and-thin functions
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04:54:01 <pikhq> oerjan: I've got an idea for Agora. Pity you're not in it; otherwise, I'd ask you for assistance with it. . .
04:54:45 <pikhq> (define a partnership. That partnership's rules shall be that of a Nomic. Subnomic. :D)
04:55:22 <pikhq> And I notice that you won it once.
04:56:01 <Sgeo> I was interested in FRC once..
04:56:03 <lament> the world is big, the internet is pretty small though
04:56:20 * Sgeo is on the Agora discussion thing for some reason
04:56:22 <lament> just a few hubs of cool stuff in the vast badlands of porn
04:56:31 <lament> (never has the word badlands been more appropriate)
04:56:46 <Sgeo> NEW XKCD SOON!
05:00:39 * pikhq wants someone to join him in the Subnomic Partnership.
05:01:08 <Sgeo> When I have time (never) I'll look at Agora again
05:01:41 <oerjan> you are aware that FRC started as a Subnomic of Nomic World, and Agora rose from its ashes?
05:02:01 <pikhq> oerjan: Then let's be nostalgic.
05:03:12 * pikhq should probably hold off on that, anyways. . .
05:03:28 <pikhq> Agora is currently swamped with 10,000 CFJs. . .
05:04:03 <pikhq> (I call for judgement on the following statement 10,000 times: This is Sparta.)
05:05:30 * pikhq kinda hopes that his proposal on removing all changes in game state caused by that is passed. . .
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13:19:27 <Keymaker> any chance chris pressey is here?
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19:50:26 <oklopol> i said "o", you said "u", there's a great difference.
19:51:51 <oerjan> ah but first you said i
19:51:59 <oerjan> a very egoistic thing to say
19:52:47 <oerjan> is that how EgoBot was named?
19:53:10 <ehird`> that's how all Ego* projects are named
19:53:17 <ehird`> ... did you not pick up on that?
19:54:25 <ehird`> that's how all of Ego* projects were named
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20:08:00 <oklopol> oerjan: you are right, i may have been a bit selfish there by accident
20:08:45 <oklopol> hmm, where's all the time slippin', it's like 20 min since i last spoke and i haven't really done anything...
20:09:06 <ehird`> ahtiuhariuthkjghlkdfhgkjdafghkadhg stupid windows and stupid router and stupid firewall
20:09:33 <oklopol> ahtiuhari is very finnishish
20:09:38 <ehird`> sdfsdfsdffhkfjhafkhsldf
20:09:51 <ehird`> Firefox can't establish a connection to the server at 84.65.88.163:8080.
20:09:54 <oerjan> oklopol: my sentiment exactly
20:10:03 <oklopol> ahti is like the god of sea or something, uhari could be a slang way to say uhkalaukaus or something
20:10:10 <oklopol> not that uhkalaukaus would mean anything
20:10:11 <oerjan> rtrklrktkrlktrsklrtrlt is very czech
20:10:53 <ehird`> ok, list of what i've done
20:11:02 <ehird`> disabled router firewall + personal firewall
20:11:13 <ehird`> it STILL won't load the page
20:14:21 <ehird`> why is this not working???
20:16:04 <oerjan> you want to visit _that_ page?
20:16:55 <oerjan> what did the poor squirrels do to you?
20:17:14 <ehird`> my local webserver's page.
20:17:32 <ehird`> i can access it from 127.0.0.1
20:17:36 <ehird`> just not from the outside world
20:17:41 <ehird`> it never even hits my personal firewall
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20:21:47 <ehird`> ... i had it bound to localhost
20:23:22 <ehird`> Of course predictably it still doesn't work :|
20:23:56 <bartw> right, on with the compiler building
20:24:45 <ehird`> Shieldsup says the port is stealth :|
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20:27:49 <ehird`> i forgot to change the port in my firewall
20:32:17 <bartw> if a.x is a valid expression returning a function pointer
20:32:29 <bartw> does that mean the overloading isn't possible
20:34:19 <GregorR> DISCLAIMER: Gregor doesn't have a clue WTF you're talkinga bout :)
20:38:22 <oklopol> i'm assuming bartw asked whether it's possible to define a language where a.x can have multiple definitions
20:38:35 <oklopol> i'm pretty sure it's possible
20:39:23 <bartw> several languages have the concept of method overloading, disambiguated by parameter count and type
20:39:50 <bartw> but if you start to juggle with functionpointers, hwo do you disabiguate
20:39:50 <bartw> but this isn't the channel for this it seems
20:40:35 <GregorR> Depends on how you define your overloading.
20:40:47 <GregorR> Is overloading name -> many functions or function -> many effects
20:41:10 <bartw> in this case, 1 name, several functions
20:41:14 <oklopol> bartw: depends on call semantics... it's trivial to convert overloading into pattern amtching.
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23:25:08 <bsmntbombdood> prize for making the shortest equivelant to +++++++++++++++[>+>++>+++>++++>+++++>++++++>+++++++>++++++++<<<<<<<<-]
23:26:03 <oklopol> bsmntbombdood: WE ARE NOT DOING YOUR HOMEWORK!
23:26:17 <bsmntbombdood> that is, put [16*1, 16*2, 16*3, 16*4, 16*5, 16*6, 16*7, 16*8] in the tape
23:26:43 <oklopol> if it were, i'd be totally jealous
23:26:55 <ehird`> [Put16TimesNForNinARangeFrom1to8OnTape Interpreter]
23:29:22 <ehird`> when in doubt, invent a language that can do it
23:29:40 <bsmntbombdood> hmm i wonder if it would be shorter to put [1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8] on the tape and map *16 across it
23:30:06 <ehird`> maybe try not having 16 +s
23:31:19 <ehird`> BF constants page, high-ho
23:38:42 <bsmntbombdood> i basically want the shortest code to load a number and all/some of its factors
23:43:27 <ehird`> wapr has been out for ages now and nobody's written anything in it ;P
23:44:50 <ehird`> (http://esolangs.org/wiki/Wapr, the stuff there is stack comments, not argument syntax)
23:44:56 <ehird`> it is most likely turing complete
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23:45:25 <ihope_> What about the 100-character BF program that outputs the most?
23:45:38 <ihope_> Tape infinite both ways, cells hold integers.
23:46:25 <ehird`> isnt' that the busy beaver problem
23:47:21 <ehird`> it's good to know i recognize is
23:49:04 <ihope_> My entry: +++[->+++<]>[->+++<]>[->+++<]>[->+++<]>[->+++<]>[->+++<]>[->++<]>[->++<]>[->++<]>[->++<]>[->++<]>[..-]
23:49:44 <ehird`> bsmntbombdood: (10:55:55 PM) ihope_: What about the 100-character BF program that outputs the most?
23:49:44 <ehird`> (10:56:08 PM) ihope_: Tape infinite both ways, cells hold integers.
23:50:09 <ehird`> that was ihope_'s entry to the above
23:51:01 <ehird`> infinite output, i win
23:51:29 <ehird`> that's impossible then
23:51:35 <ehird`> basically the max you can get is +[.+]
23:52:10 <ehird`> show me YOUR 5 char entry
23:57:57 <bsmntbombdood> let's find the lowest number where the number of prints is greater than the length
23:58:19 <ehird`> bsmntbombdood: that might be hard
23:58:22 <ehird`> ihope_ might do it though
23:58:30 <ehird`> considering he started this mess ;)