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00:43:07 <Guilt> hi. i uploaded a newer compiler here: http://guilt.bafsoft.net/downloads/wip/Brainfuck/
00:43:39 <Guilt> it converts to x86 asm. right now does jump optimizations.. will eventually work out balanced loop optimization once i have an intermediete representation
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00:44:10 <Guilt> i would like feedback and bug reports, if any.
00:52:34 * GregorR uses "'" as a greeting from now on.
00:53:19 <GregorR> O'bsmntbombdood -> Oh, hello bsmntbombdood!
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00:53:40 <oerjan> didn't know he was irish...
00:54:59 <GregorR> Just like John Van Von O'McFitzsonovichstein
00:58:27 <GregorR> Is there a first name that means "my son"? :P
00:59:09 * GregorR stabs bsmntbombdood in the facehole.
01:01:37 <oerjan> you're pretty good at photoshopping it away, then
01:01:38 <GregorR> I'm not making fun of it ... just stabbing it.
01:02:05 <Guilt> are there any easy to understand books on automata?
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01:02:29 <Guilt> without too much math in it? like a quintuplet of sorts? :)
01:02:58 <Guilt> i know it's like asking for food without calories.. but a low-cal diet would be great! :)
01:04:29 <ihope> "Mijo" means "my son"! It's just not a name.
01:04:35 <ihope> As far as I know, at least.
01:05:04 <ihope> Guilt: automata, you say? Like cellular automata and Turing machines and Minsky machines and Langton's ant?
01:05:41 <ihope> But math IS that stuff! :-)
01:06:08 <Guilt> ooh :| is there a good math tutorial at least? :)
01:06:22 <Guilt> i lost interest in math after 1st year of univ.
01:06:23 <GregorR> "is there a good math tutorial" :P
01:06:27 <Guilt> and it's been years since
01:06:37 <Guilt> well. i fear math now. totally.
01:06:40 <ihope> Eh, there are lots of things that can follow "math is".
01:07:00 <ihope> Well, what are you after? A list of automata?
01:07:02 * oerjan wonders if MCC over at GoodMath did automata
01:07:36 <Guilt> understanding that stuff.
01:07:56 <pikhq> oerjan: I suspect he has.
01:07:59 <ihope> Is there any certain automaton you don't understand?
01:08:38 <pikhq> Guilt: What a shame.
01:08:43 <Guilt> ihope: turing machines, for starters.
01:08:54 * pikhq is in high school, and loves math.
01:08:55 <Guilt> and yes, a shame :(
01:09:01 <oerjan> i am _sure_ MCC did turing machines
01:09:07 <Guilt> pikhq, i loved calculus in school
01:09:34 <Guilt> then they taught something on differential equations and those generating long polynomials
01:09:47 <ihope> Guilt: maybe an animation of a Turing machine would help?
01:09:48 <Guilt> and holes and stuff in complex numbers, and all that high school math went deep into the drain
01:10:30 <ihope> Now I just have to find one, I guess.
01:10:35 <Guilt> eventually, i hope to learn enough math to follow TAOCP. a lifetime goal. lol
01:10:37 <oerjan> i haven't been there in a while, but there were always people saying things like "i tried to learn this before, but i never understood it before you explained it"
01:10:54 <Guilt> yeah. understanding is the key to these things.
01:11:09 <pikhq> Holes in functions & complex numbers are difficult?
01:11:28 <GregorR> It's so much easier just to be a genius, eh pikhq?
01:11:32 <Guilt> there's a whole lot of things behind that now which i don't remember.
01:11:47 <pikhq> GregorR: Of course it is.
01:11:48 <ihope> Yeah, being a genius is nice. You should try it sometime. :-P
01:11:58 <Guilt> yeah. and if you're a genius, that's great. i admit i'm not one. but i intend to eventually become not so dumb.
01:12:05 <pikhq> (as a genius, I'm well aware of that. :p)
01:12:11 <GregorR> Now, to go kill myself over my upcoming crypto assignment argh Gregor hate argh argh
01:12:34 <Guilt> i think of crypto as a blackbox. something goes in and something else comes out. :) that has it's advantages
01:12:45 <Guilt> i could figure out the math somewhat in RSA and DH though.
01:12:47 <GregorR> Yes. Yes it does. I used to live in that happy universe *sobs*
01:13:04 <Guilt> should this channel be #math? :)
01:13:23 <ihope> #math has people like TRWBW. Not that that's a bad thing?
01:13:49 <ihope> <TRWBW> uman: you asked a question, i gave you valid information, either thank me or just shut up. anyways, go with god
01:14:39 <ihope> Perhaps I should make a Turing machine animation.
01:14:49 <ihope> It's not hard to make a bad one! :-P
01:15:27 <GregorR> One of those programs that is way more helpful than it ought to be :P
01:15:30 <oerjan> http://scienceblogs.com/goodmath/2007/02/basics_the_turing_machine_with_1.php#more
01:15:42 <ihope> Oh, that looks useful.
01:19:14 <oerjan> (note in my browser at least that has a formatting error so the actual article is below all the menus)
01:20:55 <Guilt> one more question: why haskell? :)
01:21:11 <Guilt> is learning it fundamental to researching stuff like this?
01:21:11 <pikhq> It wouldn't *be* Oerjan without Haskell. :p
01:21:30 <pikhq> Oh. MCC did some Haskell there?
01:22:25 <pikhq> I suspect Haskell is for the more mathematically inclined. :p
01:22:37 <oerjan> he also started a haskell tutorial
01:23:23 <oerjan> the fact that MCC used haskell is probably not my fault though
01:23:40 <oerjan> we discovered it independently, afaik
01:23:43 <pikhq> I still blame you.
01:23:51 <pikhq> Wait. . . Do you *know* MCC?
01:24:03 <oerjan> no, but i followed the blog for a while
01:24:38 <oerjan> the probably was an understatement
01:24:51 <Guilt> i realize what a mathematical world this is.
01:25:17 <oerjan> also, i started reading it because of his weekly esolang, not is haskell
01:25:47 <oerjan> in fact someone here pointed me to it
01:25:57 <Guilt> is haskell an esolang?
01:26:05 <Guilt> looks decent to me. like lisp or somethin
01:26:11 <oerjan> usually not considered as such :)
01:26:32 <oerjan> but it is quite different from most programming languages
01:28:02 <bsmntbombdood> a forum like slashdot, except all posting done by mail
01:29:37 <bsmntbombdood> either no one would participate, or only people who really had something decent to say would participate
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01:31:37 <Guilt> ooh. zip in python looks like borrowed from haskell
01:31:49 <Guilt> stupid languages.. all similiar looking
01:32:18 <Guilt> i'm going to get mad one day.. looking at x numbers of languages
01:32:47 <oerjan> although both zip and comprehensions are probably older than both
01:33:03 <oerjan> well, comprehensions really come from math
01:33:11 <Guilt> omg. haskell has a posix api with networking?
01:33:17 <pikhq> As do functions. Your point?
01:33:20 <Guilt> i hope nobody's doing SOA with it.
01:33:36 <oerjan> sure. the number of libraries have really started to take off lately
01:34:20 <Guilt> thank god brainfuck doesn't say something about tcp or file streams
01:34:30 <Guilt> :) although it could act as a http client with nc. heh
01:34:35 <pikhq> It would if we worked on PSOX.
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01:35:06 <oerjan> there's happs, for building web services with haskell
01:35:21 <pikhq> PSOX is a suggested API via I/O to allow esoteric languages access to things like files, TCP streams, etc.
01:36:51 <pikhq> (yes, we are insane; thank you for noticing)
01:38:05 * oerjan goes to find that quote again
01:38:12 <Guilt> can PSOX work with a normal brainfuck interp?
01:38:20 <Guilt> as of now, any existing implementations?
01:38:59 <Guilt> http://sgeo.diagonalfish.net/esoteric/psox-new-cat.b ?
01:39:09 <pikhq> That would be an *example* of PSOX.
01:39:18 <pikhq> Sgeo has no implementation finished.
01:39:21 <oerjan> "We're all mad here. I am mad. You're mad." "How do you know that I am mad?" asked Alice. "You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here."
01:39:23 <pikhq> Or, indeed, a finished spec.
01:39:37 <Guilt> heh. through the looking glass?
01:40:22 <oerjan> i think alice in wonderland, but not sure
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01:54:03 <pikhq> http://scienceblogs.com/goodmath/2007/11/musical_goofiness_with_a_mathy.php
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02:54:40 <bsmntbombdood> like slashdot, with news articles to start discussion (less time-sensitive and longer lived than slashdot's though), with a postal adress to send comments to, where someone does very light moderation (removing spam and the "AI()(#J KDKSD"s), scans, threadifies, and posts the mail
02:55:58 <oerjan> this reminds me of a very old-fangled concept which i'm sure you young whipper-snappers haven't heard about, called a magazine.
02:56:34 <bsmntbombdood> magazines don't post enough mails for decent discussion, and monthly is waaay too long
02:58:06 <oerjan> you might be interested in another ancient concept called a newspaper, then
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07:01:48 <immibis> http://www.rinkworks.com/stupid/
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07:43:08 <oklopol> last night... was playing with my magnets as usual... dropped one on the computer, perhaps a sensitive area or something, screen went black
07:43:37 <oklopol> the weird thing is, i could just recover that from a button on my comp that switches screen on/off
07:43:49 <oklopol> but the mouse ain't working
07:44:17 <oklopol> i *could* try taking the battery off and letting it be fully dead for a while
07:44:31 <oklopol> good idea if that's what you meant
07:45:18 <immibis> is there a button above the touchpad
07:45:19 <oklopol> and it's the touchpad that's not working
07:45:26 <oklopol> maybe i should've cleared that up
07:45:54 <oklopol> this is a 2.5-year-old laptop, even i'm not that stupid ;)
07:46:42 * immibis notices that oklopol replied to a /notice by writing in a channel
07:47:03 <oklopol> yes, conclusion: i see notices on the channel i'm currently in
07:47:06 <fizzie> Ooh; the RFC frowns on that!
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07:47:31 <fizzie> "The difference between NOTICE and PRIVMSG is that automatic replies must never be sent in response to a NOTICE message."
07:47:49 <fizzie> http://www.irchelp.org/irchelp/rfc/chapter4.html#c4_4_2 and so on.
07:47:50 <immibis> fizzie: i think automatic is an important word there
07:48:00 <fizzie> Well, that looked pretty automatic to me!
07:48:44 <immibis> [20:46] --> oklopol - NoNameScript?
07:49:07 <fizzie> Yes, and he automatically replied to it without thinking about it (much).
07:49:31 <oklopol> omg lecture in 12 minutes 6 km away ->
07:49:34 <fizzie> You might get stuck into a loop that way! You'd write replies and replies until your fingers fell off!
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07:57:07 <immibis> immibis said Oh Hi. Take that, RFC 1459!
07:57:39 <immibis> someone notice me (:P) with the word Hi somewhere in the text
07:57:44 <immibis> immibis said Hi. Take that, RFC 1459!
07:59:09 <immibis> lament said Thou Art Hideous, Wretch!. Take that, RFC 1459!
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08:04:10 <fizzie> Actually RFC 2812 makes the statement even stronger, with ALL CAPS: "The difference between NOTICE and PRIVMSG is that automatic replies MUST NEVER be sent in response to a NOTICE message."
08:04:47 <immibis> immibis said Hi. Take that, RFC's 1459 and 2812!
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11:56:02 * Sgeo pokes people to #psox
11:56:09 <Sgeo> SVN repository!
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13:20:39 <Sgeo_> http://trac2.assembla.com/psox/browser/trunk/ex/example_domain.py
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13:32:55 <oklopol> i think i actually managed to design a whole new esoteric language concept today!
13:33:24 <oklopol> well, like 1% change of that happening
13:33:52 <oklopol> it's based on constantly improving guesses
13:34:06 <oklopol> functions always return instantly, but keep on trying to produce a better output
13:34:12 <ehird`> that's like a neural net
13:34:21 <ehird`> i'll implement it show me a spec :P
13:34:53 <ehird`> i'll do it in python! :9
13:35:12 <oklopol> with the semantics i have now, it's unbelievable complicated; and it's not unambiguous yet.
13:35:28 <oklopol> for some reason i have to do everything in an original way when designing a language
13:36:06 <oklopol> i don't wanna do it in python... too easy :<
13:36:15 <ehird`> i'll write an interp in C
13:36:20 <ehird`> is that hardcore enough for you?
13:36:30 <ehird`> it will be all in main(), be uncommented, and use at least one hex digit
13:36:42 <ehird`> like most C esolang interpreters
13:36:46 <ehird`> will that satisfy you?
13:36:59 <oklopol> but as i said, i'll first finish the language, then try making it myself, then you can do it. :D
13:37:28 <oklopol> that sounds nice, but also remember to avoid recursion
13:37:40 <ehird`> can't I recurse into main?
13:37:44 <ehird`> that's non-standard and kooky! :D
13:38:00 <oklopol> well, yes, but you shouldn't be dependent on that, just do it for the heck of it
13:38:17 <ehird`> can i do it for my parsing
13:38:23 <oklopol> recurse a few times, then while-loop everything
13:38:48 <oklopol> heh, i'm really not gonna make you a spec, half the fun in designing languages is implementing them :D
13:39:09 <ehird`> you can implement it but give me a spec so i can too
13:39:13 <ehird`> also, implement yours in oklotalk!
13:41:02 <oklopol> heh, i would need to make oklotalk first ;)
13:41:36 <oklopol> actually, one of my greatest problems is i want to use a non garbage collected language, but i don't feel like making good containers in C
13:41:51 <oklopol> and i don't know many other non gc languages
13:41:58 <ehird`> D is pretty easy to learn
13:41:58 <oklopol> well, that has actually crossed my mind
13:42:05 <ehird`> disable python's gc like so:
13:42:08 <oklopol> but i haven't installed D yet, soooo much work xD
13:42:14 <ehird`> whenever you create an object, push it to a global list
13:42:22 <ehird`> when you want to free something
13:42:26 <ehird`> delete it from the list
13:43:10 <oklopol> if i'd just put ints in the list, it'd be a quite accurate translation
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17:41:34 <oklopol> http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p264151235.txt <<< code sample !
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18:29:08 <ehird`> that'll hurt in the morning
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18:47:45 <Sgeo> ihope, #psox ?
18:48:10 <ehird`> gosh stop plugging it Sgeo
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23:55:06 <dbc> Testing factorial program in brainfuck.
23:56:23 <ehird`> bf random.b | bf byte2dec.b | bf factorial.b | bf numwarp.b = oh wow
23:56:50 <dbc> Keymaker beat me to it, in fact he made one quite a while ago. But I still didn't take it off my to-do list, and I was bored today.
23:57:04 <ihope> Reversible Thue would be interesting.
23:57:05 <dbc> Ah. No, this one doesn't take input. That would actually be easier, thinking about it.
23:57:33 <ihope> It just guesses what number you want? :-)
23:57:34 <dbc> Or if not easier, at least maybe shorter.
23:57:39 <dbc> No, it computes all of them.
23:57:47 <ehird`> it can compute infinite numbers in finite time?
23:57:55 <dbc> Or more strictly, it computes any given one.
23:58:02 <dbc> in finite time.
23:58:04 <ehird`> haskell taken to the logical extreme i guess
23:58:12 * ihope computes all of them
23:58:19 <ehird`> ihope: what's the last factorial?
23:58:25 <ihope> ehird`: what's the last integer?
23:58:44 <ehird`> ihope: the .. um .. factorial-root of the last value your program outputted
23:59:00 <dbc> Negation of "it computes all factorials" is "there is a factorial it doesn't compute", right?
23:59:06 <dbc> Which is wrong.
23:59:09 <ihope> Well, it kind of ran faster and faster and then stopped suddenly.
23:59:22 <ehird`> ihope: Running on an infinity machine?
23:59:25 <ihope> Each factorial took half as long to compute as the last one.
23:59:27 <ehird`> That'd be the clockspeed halfing.
23:59:51 <ihope> Oh, I remember. The last factorial is 0.