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05:47:36 <Sgeo> What's Epigram?
05:49:01 <faxathisia> It seems to be a programming language where you can have types depend on values
05:49:40 <faxathisia> the code looks cool some examples on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epigram_%28programming_language%29
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06:12:16 <oklopol> <graue> is that general problem NP-complete? <<< no
06:12:28 <oklopol> although someone has prolly said that
06:13:42 <faxathisia> but this isn't zero sum, it's maximizing
06:16:54 <oklopol> faxathisia: i think you mean on where any subset can be taken
06:17:21 <oerjan> oklopol: that would be even easier, just take _all_ positives
06:17:22 <oklopol> anything that only cares about continuous sequences can be no
06:17:38 <oklopol> oerjan: for the max, yes, not the zeroing
06:18:18 <oklopol> anyway, the 2d one is np? did someone say that or did i misunderstand something
06:18:24 <oerjan> oh, and of course for maximizing under a bound (knapsack)
06:19:01 <oklopol> oh, he was talking about subset sumzorz
06:19:58 <oklopol> wonder if generalizing that to hypercube sum makes it np
06:20:10 <oklopol> or is hypercube a tesseract?
06:21:29 * oerjan vaguely recalls those are the same thing
06:21:51 <oerjan> or maybe hypercube is for all dimensions
06:21:56 <oklopol> i mean, can hypercube be used for further dimensions as well
06:22:22 <oklopol> i hate it when people steal my thoughts
06:22:25 <oerjan> only one way to find out
06:22:58 <oerjan> only _two ways_ to find out
06:23:11 <oerjan> teh google, teh wikipedia, and teh mathworld
06:23:57 <oerjan> the fourth way is asking the spanish inquisition, which is not recommended
06:24:43 <oklopol> indeed, time travel sometimes leads to catastrophes
06:24:45 <oerjan> anyway it's apparently arbitrary n
06:25:39 <oklopol> hmm, the typing checker doesn't know "tesseract", is that the correct form, now that you have your pedias open
06:25:58 <oklopol> (since you can't possibly just know that...)
06:26:01 <oerjan> but i think that was it
06:26:16 <oerjan> and i did see it but i did not rememorize the spelling :)
06:27:02 <oklopol> i learned the word from watching hypercube in french
06:27:29 <oklopol> i've actually pointer you out a paradox from that movie, although you don't remember it
06:30:18 <oerjan> no one remembers. it's a paradox!
06:30:40 <oerjan> oh and that sub-hypercube thing.
06:30:55 <oerjan> n dimensions, 2^n elements
06:31:26 <oerjan> 3^n sub-hypercubes i think
06:31:43 <oerjan> (for each coordinate, take both, 0 or neither)
06:32:57 <oerjan> 3^(log 2 x) = (3^log 2)^x, still a polynomial number in the original elements
06:33:44 <oerjan> darn i'm not supposed to do _that_ kind of silly mistake :D
06:34:19 <oklopol> why can't you take 1, why just 0?
06:34:34 <oerjan> you cannot take neither
06:34:48 <oerjan> oh right, i'm forgetting to eat breakfast
06:35:54 <oerjan> my brain does not work without food
06:38:22 <oklopol> actually, i think this kind of brain usage is for melvins too
06:38:41 <oklopol> not sure whether it means "geek" or "gay", no real difference in usage
06:41:08 <oerjan> so back to this thing which my intuition tells me _is_ polynomial
06:41:52 <oerjan> 3^(log 2 n) = 2^(log 3*log 2 n) = n^log 3 Q.E.D.
06:42:47 <oerjan> so you can check all sub-hypercubes in n^log 2 3 time
06:43:40 <oklopol> every circle of kiddo buddies comes up with their own set of words, and there are about a quadrillion kids in the us
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06:43:47 <oklopol> i'd be surprised if you'd heard it
06:44:03 * oklopol should memorize urbandictionary
06:44:15 <oerjan> er times some overhead per cube, which is linear
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06:45:23 <oerjan> exercise: pepper your speech with words used differently than most people do. if challenged point to a dictionary
06:45:50 * oerjan now wonders if "pepper" is used in that sense in english
06:47:03 <oerjan> it seems so, at least close to it
06:47:09 <oklopol> now, the 3 there is related to 2
06:47:18 <oklopol> why not generalize for any cube size?
06:47:56 <oerjan> n_1*n_2*...*n_k gives (n_1+1)*...*(n_k+1) subcubes
06:49:09 <oklopol> i'd say it's quadratic growth
06:49:30 <oerjan> hm right if it's to be consecutive
06:49:51 <oklopol> i mean, the number of continuous segments in a list
06:49:53 <oerjan> and multiplying quadratic things are still quadratic
06:50:09 <oklopol> although still too much for me without paper..
06:50:42 <oklopol> hey, don't get colloquial with me! thazz no proof!
06:50:51 <oerjan> because you also multiply the things you start squaring
06:51:09 <oerjan> <= (n_1^2)*...*(n_k^2) subcubes
06:52:53 <oklopol> people at the computer science classes look at me like a geek when i'm reading coding theory xD
06:53:00 <oerjan> i say that's proof enough
06:54:05 <oklopol> why didn't i eat anything... i'm hungry too
06:54:17 <oklopol> i'm gonna go melvin it up ->
06:54:23 <oerjan> because you're pretending to be the anti-melvin :)
06:59:54 <oklopol> it's funny, most of the time when reading math i'm thinking of ways to enhance the notation itself; math doesn't really try alternative notations that much, why is that :\
07:00:10 <oklopol> the notation used today is like 70 billion years old right?
07:02:58 <oerjan> some things do get more efficient notation occasionally
07:05:13 <oklopol> i guess a reason why the main notation is uaually the same could be that, unlike with programming, you can just use any other notation you want
07:08:01 <oerjan> like these days i think few people use Boole's notation for Boolean formulas
07:08:18 <oerjan> ab = a and b, a+b = a or b
07:09:09 <oklopol> well, in that case the mathematical notation definately owns
07:09:48 <oklopol> boole's notation was with "and" and "or"?
07:09:59 <oklopol> wasn't it the one with those weird characters?
07:10:08 <oerjan> no the other way around
07:10:22 <oerjan> i did not give the modern one
07:10:31 <oerjan> it may not be entirely consistent, hm
07:10:54 <oklopol> well, "and" and "or" are definately too verbose for anything
07:12:16 <oerjan> /\ and \/ are probably most common now
07:12:48 <oklopol> we used those in school for the first few lessons
07:13:11 <oklopol> after which /\ and \/ were considered bad-.
07:14:19 <oklopol> teachers tend to want the students to use the system used in classes
07:14:30 <oklopol> to make checking a simpler process
07:16:19 <oerjan> i do vaguely recall my father has an old book which uses * +
07:16:57 <oerjan> about digital circuits
07:17:29 <oerjan> must have been my first introduction to boolean algebra
07:18:10 <oerjan> but nowadays - when you know about boolean rings, you realize it is xor that is the addition :)
07:19:07 <oklopol> i realized that right away, but the teacher didn't mention it
07:19:29 <oklopol> i almost yelled it out loud
07:19:52 <oklopol> when were boolean rings come up with?
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07:23:25 <oklopol> prime fields are the coolest thing ever, the lives of those before the must have been quite meaningless
07:24:22 <oklopol> that's prolly not the right term
07:24:49 <oklopol> like, a field over (mod p) where p is prime
07:25:03 <oerjan> galois field, except that also includes p^n
07:25:18 <oklopol> well, any field really other than reals is pretty awesome
07:25:35 <oklopol> yeah i don't know about n!=1, since the book hasn't considered that :P
07:25:46 <oerjan> prime field seems to be used
07:26:09 <oerjan> i think n!=1 is even more awesome
07:26:32 <oerjan> they're harder to find
07:27:28 <oklopol> i almost ejaculated when i heard there's always a generator member in the field whose exponents create every other member of the field
07:27:45 <oerjan> will the size 2^16 (i think) field i hid in my INTERCAL Unlambda interpreter do?
07:28:27 <oklopol> hmm... every p^n, where n!=1 is not a field?
07:28:37 <oerjan> i discovered in INTERCAL it was easier to do a multiplication over that field than actually incrementing a variable :)
07:29:12 <oklopol> on a side note, i should learn intercal
07:29:28 <oerjan> Z(p^n) is not a field for n!=1, indeed
07:30:12 <oerjan> but there _is_ a field of size p^n, which is not the same as calculating mod p^n
07:31:01 <oklopol> in that case, it is pretty awesome
07:31:43 <oerjan> also, there is exactly one of each size
07:32:43 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finite_field
07:32:48 <oklopol> why the fuck isn't this taught at school, discrete math is a fucking mental orgy
07:33:16 <oerjan> well as i said these are harder to find
07:34:44 <oklopol> i meant why am i learning all this now that i'm already old and wrinkled
07:35:24 <oklopol> what i mean is, this should be taught before integration and that shit
07:36:07 <oklopol> or, calculus could be taught in physics, and math could concentrate on the interesting stuff
07:38:04 <oklopol> i mean, these things seem so fundamental every time i hear something like that, i feel i gain +1 lev
07:38:23 <oklopol> and these are levels i could've gained in elementary school
07:49:25 <oklopol> surely galois did not die in a duel, his head exploded from all the awesome
07:52:58 <oerjan> yeah and abel didn't die of tuberculosis either </cough> </cough> </cccc...
07:56:14 <oklopol> sorry, don't know enough history to get the reference :P
07:56:51 <oklopol> i need to come up with something completely new, or stop reading about these guys
07:57:00 <oklopol> wonder which one is easier
07:58:01 <oerjan> Niels Henrik Abel, the greatest norwegian mathematician, died 27 years old
07:59:05 <oklopol> i know that much, i'm just assuming you were pointing out a conspiracy of some sort!
07:59:35 <oerjan> a conspiracy to prevent the world from learning about unsolvable equations!
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08:00:06 <oerjan> why do you _think_ Godel was paranoid, hm?
08:00:08 <oklopol> well, those were kind of a bummer
08:00:38 <oerjan> just because you're paranoid doesn't mean no one is after you
08:00:48 <oerjan> oh and Turing didn't fare so well either
08:01:22 <oklopol> hmm... this may be the reason discrete math is *not* taught in elementary school
08:08:08 <oklopol> the other day, i realized what i wanna be when i grow up
08:09:04 <oklopol> wonder if that's a wanted occupation?
08:09:32 <oklopol> i'm willing to compromise on the size of the world i'm goding
08:14:41 <oerjan> you could do like Mobius's major Grubert and inflate the world from inside
08:15:44 <oklopol> i think i'd prefer a simpler world, tbh
08:16:25 <oklopol> universe simulator programmers get paid well, right?
08:16:59 <oerjan> the problem is the pay is virtual, i hear
08:17:43 <oklopol> i guess when i have my own universe, i don't have to care squat about this one
08:18:07 <oklopol> anyhow, i don't get category theory based on wikipedia, unless morphisms are just functions
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08:20:39 <oklopol> hmm... is a category like a system of axioms?
08:21:05 <oklopol> i don't get the analogue of morphisms in that case, since axioms are always bijective functions
08:21:23 <oerjan> axioms are propositions
08:21:55 <oklopol> aren't they tautologies over the object system in use?
08:22:27 <oerjan> not all propositions are equalities
08:23:17 <oerjan> the kind of system with a set of equations like for groups and rings is called a variety of algebras
08:23:20 <oklopol> i was just assuming you could reduce them to equalities, i guess you can't
08:23:48 <oklopol> and axioms are more general than that
08:24:08 <oklopol> understandable, i just haven't seen anything else.
08:24:16 <oerjan> e.g. the axioms for ZFC are not all equations
08:24:39 <oklopol> then i definately have seen them...
08:25:30 <oklopol> hmm, indeed, they aren't equations
08:25:39 <oklopol> i just like thinking of axioms as reduction rules
08:26:11 <oklopol> in which case equations are the nicest representation
08:26:38 <oerjan> logics often have only one-way reduction
08:26:48 <oerjan> assume this, conclude that
08:27:35 <oerjan> although for many you have a way to rephrase it as an equation
08:28:15 <oerjan> e.g. a => b can be rephrased as a or b = b
08:28:22 <oklopol> i need to take a shower, gotta leave soon
08:28:52 <oklopol> is that an example of it, or the general way to make any => into an equation :P
08:29:09 <oerjan> i think that's general, in boolean logic anyhow
08:29:51 <oklopol> is there a branch of math that somehow considers the number of steps needed for proofs?
08:29:55 <oerjan> actually an even more general way is as (a => b) = True
08:30:31 <oklopol> i mean, of course every branch considers that as part of themselves, but a more general one
08:31:06 <oerjan> i think essentially that's complexity theory, when you apply the curry-howard isomorphism
08:31:15 <oerjan> between logics and programs
08:32:12 <oerjan> there is a correspondence between propositions and proofs on the one side, and types and programs on the other
08:33:01 <oerjan> originally, intuitionistic propositional logic <=> simply typed lambda calculus
08:33:07 <oklopol> and that's what all the fuzz about automatic proving of programs is all about?
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12:42:43 <ihope> Yay, category theory.
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14:44:23 <oerjan> now that is circular reasoning
14:45:21 <ihope> It's like saying there's a morphism from A to B just because there's a morphism from B to B. :-P
14:46:15 <ihope> In that case, it was... a very nice o.
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14:48:49 <oklopol> oerjan: circular? yes. reasoning? definately not
14:49:02 <oklopol> o's are the result of reasoning.
14:49:15 <oklopol> not at all to do with the process of reasoning
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15:06:13 <oerjan> now _that_ is definitely circular reasoning
15:09:32 <ihope> Circular reasoning makes me unhappy.
15:10:28 <oerjan> as long as it is not a downward spiral
15:10:41 <ihope> Helical reasoning is just fine.
15:10:59 <ihope> As a bonus, it's topologically equivalent to linear reasoning.
15:11:45 <oklopol> how could that be circular reasoning? i did not justify what i said at all, that can hardly be circular.
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15:13:19 <oerjan> you were definitely reasoning about circles there
15:14:13 <oerjan> also remember rule #1: 63% of everything i say is a pun
15:14:46 <BoredCollegeGuy> Please generate 10 random numbers within the range [0,1023].
15:15:46 <ihope> 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0.
15:18:02 <oerjan> [564,840,725,105,384,584,255,962,522,528]
15:19:08 <ihope> oerjan: did you, by any chance, take 10 (randomRs (0, 1023) gen :: [Int])?
15:19:29 <oerjan> print.take 10.randomRs (0,1023::Int) =<< newStdGen
15:20:00 <oerjan> and it took me far too long to get that typed right :(
15:20:35 <ihope> Though only a little bit, I'm guessing.
15:23:02 <BoredCollegeGuy> Please, state the most difficult problem yet processed through this interpreter.
15:23:53 <oklopol> i once processed a hello world
15:24:11 <ihope> Coming up with a complete AI program running at a reasonable pace.
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15:30:03 <BoredCollegeGuy> Please, let "most difficult problem" be defined as the problem requiring more work from the interpreter than any other problem. Retry last request.
15:31:59 <RodgerTheGreat> I've been asked to type the lyrics to 99b, but I'm not certain saying "go to hell" counts as processing the problem.
15:32:33 <oerjan> it does in IRP, in fact it's the canonical answer :)
15:32:34 <BoredCollegeGuy> considering the fact that that's a bug in the interpreter, I think I'd have to say no.
15:34:01 <oklopol> hmm... do we have any nondeterministic languages in the wiki?
15:34:22 <oklopol> i actually know a few myself
15:34:25 <BoredCollegeGuy> "Due to a bug in the IRP interpreter, it is very difficult to produce a working implementation of the 99 bottles program in this language."
15:35:07 <oklopol> lolcode is nondeterministic? i rather doubt that
15:35:21 <oerjan> BoredCollegeGuy: i'm sure they'll get to adding an exception to that if they haven't already
15:36:36 <oklopol> yes, although i may confuse it to another language... not sure
15:36:43 <oklopol> i mean the one with the pressure thing
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15:37:38 <oklopol> yeah, that's nondeterministic
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15:40:29 <ihope> I don't suppose it lets you add new commands
15:41:00 <ihope> Well, kicking won't let you change nicks.
15:41:15 <ihope> Can't you /msg NickServ GHOST BoredCollegeGuy password?
15:43:34 <BoredCollegeGu1> Please return a stack trace of the calculation of A(3,5) where A is the Ackermann function.
15:44:40 <oerjan> hm, this calls for something more than "Go to hell"
15:45:55 <oerjan> Go to Malebolge, You Fiend!
15:46:03 <ihope> BoredCollegeGu1: will do!
15:46:57 * DocWilco points out to BoredCollegeGu1 that the topic contains "IRP in #irp"
15:47:38 <oklopol> irp is okay if you know it's not
15:49:32 <BoredCollegeGu1> that's another place where we could do with a wiki update then.
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15:51:01 <BoredCollegeGu1> on the other hand, #irp seems to be unimplemented at this point.
15:51:55 <DocWilco> it's still quite unimplemented it seems =)
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15:52:56 <oklopol> there's no #irc? where will all the irc'rs go then? :O
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15:54:00 <ihope> BoredCollegeGu1: well, it's running.
15:54:11 <ihope> Oh, it's finished. The answer is 61.
15:54:16 <DocWilco> BoredCollegeGu1: you can change nicks now
15:54:41 <ihope> Except it isn't actually? Hmm.
15:54:58 <ihope> Well, I'll give what it gave.
15:55:14 <oklopol> i'm pretty sure the request was for the actual trace
15:55:21 <ihope> Oh, it exceeded my scrollback.
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15:55:48 <ihope> Now I need to stuff this into a file somehow.
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16:08:47 <ihope> Oh, that's why the program gave the wrong output. I gave it the wrong input.
16:12:18 <oklopol> i always have that problem, 100 lines of code, no bugs... and then i debug for 2 hours to find i was testing it with a different input than i thought
16:15:04 <ihope> Good thing I saw the error immediately upon seeing the "stack trace".
16:15:13 <ihope> And all this work just to get 253!
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16:15:42 <ihope> Is it a me-parody or an Apple user?
16:15:57 <ihope> Or something entirely different?
16:16:52 <iEhird> using a native IRC client
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16:18:35 -!- iEhird has joined.
16:19:01 <GregorR> They have an IRC client for iPhone?
16:19:31 <GregorR> I'm gonna go with "no" on VoIP, as that would undermine their business model :P
16:19:35 <iEhird> off your need to jailbreak it first
16:19:59 <GregorR> You jail-broke yours? Need to carefully not update it? :)
16:20:33 <iEhird> carefly not update more like press no when iTunes adis
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16:21:06 <GregorR> I would think Apple's software would make it more difficult not to update.
16:21:47 <iEhird> you are thinking of microsoft
16:22:12 <GregorR> No, I'm thinking of both Microsoft and Apple.
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16:24:02 <EHIRDm> Hi from different client
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16:24:44 <iEhird> gregor r appple products never do that to ne
16:35:26 <iEhird> WTF spam call from my carrier XD
16:37:19 <GregorR> They want you to switch to the Snapple dyePhone
16:38:46 <iEhird> docwilcp I've found it significantly more useful than a brick
16:39:25 <GregorR> Clearly you've just been using bad bricks.
16:39:57 <DocWilco> iEhird: well, I'm talking about the people who managed to brick it by hacking the provider lock and then upgrading firmware
16:40:08 <DocWilco> and yes, I'm aware that that's been fixed
16:40:29 <iEhird> ah well jailbreaking cannot brick
16:40:53 <ihope> It's very very as.
16:41:07 <ihope> It's as as as a's.
16:41:17 <GregorR> I would say that it's perhaps 95% as, I don't think it's reasonable to say it's 100% as though.
16:41:41 <ihope> It's as though they were such.
16:43:05 <ihope> BoredCollegeGuy: well, it got as far as A(1,A(1,A(1,A(1,A(1,A(1,A(1,A(1,A(1,A(1,A(1,A(1,A(1,A(1,A(1,A(1,A(1,A(1,A(1,A(1,A(1,A(0,A(0,A(0,A(0,A(0,A(0,A(0,A(0,A(0,A(0,A(0,A(0,A(0,A(0,A(0,A(0,A(0,A(0,A(0,A(0,A(0,A(0,A(0,A(0,A(0,A(0,A(0,A(0,A(0,A(0,A(0,A(0,A(0,A(0,A(0,A(0,A(0,A(0,A(0,A(0,A(0,A(0,A(0,A(0,A(0,A(0,A(0,A(0,A(0,A(0,A(0,A(0,A(0,A(0,A(0,A(0,A(0,A(0,A(0,A(0,A(0,A(0,A(0,A(0,A(0,A(0,A(0,A(0,A(0,
16:43:07 <ihope> A(0,A(1,139)))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))).
16:45:02 <oerjan> ackermann traces should be smote on sight
16:50:07 <oerjan> that, and http://irregularwebcomic.net/41.html
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18:02:13 <oklopol> http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p511455216.txt <<< simplified some of the old syntax... and added tons more :))))
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18:43:04 <oklopol> http://www.realtruth.org/articles/070601-006-teog.html?cid=g1193&s_kwcid=ContentNetwork|1167384521&gclid=CPjLnaOOhJACFQtPMAodgB5tpg <<< useful pointers: i think The First Law of Thermodynamics part may be incorrect
18:46:37 <oklopol> occasionally, i like trying to take these articles seriously
18:47:29 <GregorR> WTF? I'm trying to find any logic in any of this.
18:47:51 <GregorR> I fail to see any sort of connection between the random nonsense and "divine zomgsicles"
18:48:11 <oklopol> this may be the reason i have yet to succeed
18:48:52 <oklopol> no matter how many times i see that sort of crap, "Existance Of God Logically Proven" just has to be read :\
18:49:55 <GregorR> "in fact, I learned that evolution is based entirely on faith, because no facts or proof have ever been found to support it!"
18:50:13 <GregorR> I love how he just declares that as an absolute Truism.
18:51:51 <oklopol> i thought people hear proof about evolution in elementary school
18:54:14 <GregorR> Hahahaha, I clicked through to the Evolution - Facts, Fiction and Fallacy (or something like that) article, and he claims that scientists haven't drawn a line between macro- and micro-evolution because they can't even "agree" on "where the lines of these particular disciplines start and stop."
18:54:27 <GregorR> That's because the line is entirely invented - THERE IS NO LINE, you stupid dumbfuck X-D
18:55:41 <ihope> Eh, "evolution" pretty much has two meanings, at least.
18:56:10 <oklopol> In 1967, scientists built an “Atomic Clock.” It uses Cesium 133 atoms because they oscillate (vibrate) at the rate of 9,192,631,770 times per second. This produces accuracy within one second every 30 million years! Wouldn’t you love a watch that accurate? Cesium 133 atoms never vary a single vibration. They are steady—constant—reliable—and cannot be an accident of nature that just “happens” to always turn out exactly the same. God had to
18:56:10 <oklopol> design the complexity and reliability of these atoms. No honest mind can believe otherwise. <<< i guess my mind is dishonest for crying "CA" out loud
18:56:18 <oklopol> whoops, longer paste than i thought
18:56:44 <GregorR> oklopol: Yeah, that in particular left me going "Uhh, what?"
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18:58:32 <oklopol> hi pikhq, long time no see
18:58:35 <GregorR> "<ihope> Eh, "evolution" pretty much has two meanings, at least." Yes: The real meaning, and what these idiots have decided to interpret it as.
18:59:00 <ihope> So "mankind evolved from something else" is not a real meaning of "evolution"?
19:00:06 <bsmntbombdood> i can determine that evolution happens purely philosophically
19:00:07 <GregorR> That's quite possibly the worst of them all.
19:00:15 <GregorR> That's a conclusion based on the definition of evolution.
19:00:38 <ihope> Are there meanings other than "things evolve" and "mankind evolved from something else"?
19:01:09 <GregorR> "Mankind evolved from something else" is not a meaning of "evolution."
19:02:28 <oklopol> hmm... i don't really see how there are two meanings either
19:03:41 <BoredCollegeGuy> I'd recommend the following video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mcAq9bmCeR0
19:03:46 <GregorR> Evolution is change over time. That is, evolution is the derivative of state. Natural selection is the process by which biological organisms evolve in a nonrandom way.
19:04:18 <BoredCollegeGuy> dude use genetic algorithms to evolve a clock from its components.
19:08:24 <GregorR> Hahahah, I love the "mating" clocks animation :P
19:08:59 <DocWilco> there's also a guy who experimented with evolution & natural selection of ICs
19:09:38 <DocWilco> one experiment eventually resulted in a circuit that did exactly what it had to, and noone could explain how it did it
19:16:31 <GregorR> That's usually how genetic algorithms work :P
19:16:47 <GregorR> Just like lifeforms, the resulting algorithms are so complex you can only say "Uhhh ... it works for some reason."
19:24:31 <ihope> DocWilco: do you have a link of any kind?
19:26:50 * ihope ponders chemistry simulation
19:26:59 <ihope> Biochemistry simulation, that is.
19:27:37 <ihope> Well, in order for chemistry to work, you have to have some type of energy storage.
19:28:58 <ihope> A nice non-chemical way to store energy is temperature differences, so the "sun" could be replaced with a hot thing and a cold thing.
19:29:58 <ihope> Say that everything that hits the cold thing bounces back with half as much kinetic energy, and everything that hits the hot thing bounces back with more energy according to the amount of energy lost to the cold thing.
19:30:47 <ihope> If the environment isn't quite ideal, organisms need to be able to separate themselves from it, so make it possible to build walls of some sort.
19:32:08 <ihope> RNA can perform many functions, so maybe we should have nucleotides as atoms.
19:36:45 <oklopol> would "warm things" be constantly bouncing from somewhere to keep the buzz going?
19:36:59 <oklopol> hmm, not sure what you are aiming for with this
19:38:49 <ihope> No; there'd be a perpetual source of coldness and a perpetual source of heat.
19:39:13 <ihope> I'm trying to think of a biochemistry model that might produce "life".
19:41:02 <ihope> Really, temperature differences aren't a very convenient way to power things. Some type of chemical energy would be better.
19:42:18 <ihope> Have some charged atoms and some "bubbles" in a two-to-one ratio and say that every bubble must contain at least two of these charged atoms at all time, and make bubbles not collide with anything.
19:43:08 <ihope> If a positive-positive bubble comes near a negative-negative bubble, they'll come into contact and maybe turn into two positive-negative bubbles going faster.
19:43:31 <oklopol> hmm, where does the sign come from
19:44:17 <oklopol> i thought you'd specify what that means later, but charged does indeed already have a meaning
19:44:45 <ihope> Actually, make it so that bubbles collide with bubbles if they come into contact at a low enough speed.
19:45:02 <DocWilco> ihope: http://www.cogs.susx.ac.uk/users/adrianth/ade.html
19:45:21 <oklopol> if they can attach to each other, and then later blow apart, makes it much more interesting
19:45:38 <ihope> That way, you'll be able to have solid chunks of positive-positive and negative-negative that can ignite and explode.
19:45:46 <ihope> Yup, that's what this would do.
19:46:30 <oklopol> this would be proving abiogenesis, of course
19:47:03 <ihope> The clock video was sort of the same thing, since the original things weren't working clocks.
19:47:07 <oklopol> i don't think experiments have been as successful with that as they've been with evolution
19:47:41 <ihope> I guess the clocks had reproduction built in.
19:47:52 <oklopol> the problem with abiogenesis is we need the mutation and elimination systems to evolve without *any* system
19:48:08 <oklopol> which is essentially randomly choosing possibilities
19:49:12 <oklopol> and which is why abiogenesis might well be beyond our limits as we lack the million supercomputers it might need
19:51:03 <oklopol> i actually kinda lost my interest after i realized that.. :\
19:51:26 <oklopol> rekindle it with your big words, ihope!
19:51:47 <ihope> We can start simple and work our way up from there!
19:52:05 <ihope> We can prove abiogenesis one piece at a time so the times are added instead of multiplied!
19:52:36 <ihope> You know. Prove that very simple particles can make useful particles, then prove that these useful particles can make useful mechanisms, then prove that these useful mechanisms can make a cell.
19:52:55 <oklopol> yeah, i know what you mean
19:53:08 <ihope> Elimination is what happens when the energy source is overutilized, yes?
19:53:13 <oklopol> thought of that too, although unlike you, didn't realize right away it would be awesome :P
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19:53:55 <oklopol> elimination shouldn't really be coded in any explicit way
19:54:14 <oklopol> hmph, had "in in" there, thought it was a typo :P
19:54:28 <ihope> Still means the same thing.
19:54:56 <ihope> Now, really, simulating particles bouncing off each other and all would be kind of computationally intensive, wouldn't it?
19:55:18 <oklopol> if you have a continuous world, definItely
19:55:36 <ihope> Maybe we need to come up with a discrete world that can do the same thing.
19:56:19 <ihope> Keep velocity continuous-ish, but make position discrete, and then have a random chance of moving based on velocity?
19:56:25 <oklopol> well, as WOLFRAM, MY IDOL demonstrated in A New Kind of Science, discrete worlds with may particles can produce continuous-like behaviour
19:56:44 <ihope> Maybe I need a copy of NKOS.
19:57:26 <oklopol> nah, the awesome rate is quite low
19:57:35 <oklopol> it's just easy reading, is why i read it
19:57:53 <ihope> Maybe you could just describe how this discrete-continuous stuff would work?
19:59:05 <oklopol> well, first of all, isn't the general view on the real world nowadays that it's discrete?
20:00:04 <oklopol> let's say you just have simple evolution rules, you can have growth and movement in some fraction of that evolution's speed
20:00:35 <oklopol> this is just like the real world works, a maximum speed (overall evolution speed of the underlying ca)
20:00:44 <ihope> Well, what's required for life seems to be the big problem.
20:01:00 <oklopol> well, that was just a proof-ish, that it's possible
20:01:09 <oklopol> proof-ish-ish, i just mean, of course it's possible
20:01:35 <oklopol> but if we want it to actually work == something actually happens every step, i guess there might have to be a velocity of some sort
20:01:41 <ihope> Suppose we make our universe a cellular automaton. Essentially, the goal of an organism is to occupy as much space as possible.
20:02:34 <ihope> To achieve this goal, organisms that are unfit have to die.
20:03:18 <ihope> The game of Go is not life; a group can become immortal. But I do like the basic mechanic.
20:03:30 <oklopol> now we'd prolly like to somehow consider a pack of particles an "object", so that there is clear attachment, since with a really simple rule, there won't really be "creatures", and most likely it will either die out, or some simple structure will fill the screen
20:03:59 <ihope> The problem with CA, I guess, is that there might be a simple "crystal" that is the fittest possible arrangement.
20:04:17 <ihope> Which is what you said, really.
20:04:25 <oklopol> yes, this is why we want particles to be able to attach in a somewhat explicit way
20:04:36 <oklopol> and not let particles just multiply like that.
20:04:57 <ihope> Make there be entropy, which destroys things?
20:05:00 <oklopol> we can assume that if a certain praticle has evolved, it can have been evolved any number of times, right?
20:05:15 <ihope> I guess so; I'm not sure what you mean.
20:05:57 <ihope> Bleh, the particle system is such an easy way to create energy and entropy :-)
20:06:21 <oklopol> energy particles floating around?
20:06:32 <ihope> No, temperature differences.
20:06:42 <oklopol> the problem is that will be exhausted
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20:06:51 <ihope> Not if you have a cold well and a hot well.
20:07:47 <ihope> (Which probably isn't the right source of the word "well".)
20:07:53 <oklopol> true, but what would they do exactly? create new particles or give the old ones energy?
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20:08:20 <ihope> Giving the old ones energy would make them temperature wells; creating and destroying particles would make them pressure wells.
20:08:41 <ihope> I guess pressure differences are also a form of energy.
20:09:56 <oklopol> hmm, i like the idea of a well making new particles, and another one destroying them; every creature would try to keep near the creator to avoid death
20:10:51 <oklopol> there was a discrete simulation of water flowing against a wall, it created the same kind of vortexes real water does
20:10:59 <oklopol> although vortex isn't prolly the right word
20:11:24 <ihope> I can't think of a better one, though isn't the plural "vortices"?
20:11:37 <oklopol> anyhow, something like that well idea, i thinks, might be better than an explicit algorithm for extracting the bad eggs
20:11:49 <oklopol> not according to my type checker
20:12:05 <oklopol> i wrote vortices first, it was underlined red
20:12:33 <ihope> On Google, "vortices" is more common.
20:13:24 <ihope> A simple criterion for reproduction is for particles to be able to make other particles more like themselves.
20:13:57 <oklopol> ah, indeed, we are trying to get them to reproduce without external help, not to make a normal evulotion simulator
20:14:16 <ihope> Skin care product.
20:14:47 <oklopol> i could do with some, my evu hurts like hell
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20:18:44 <ihope> Well, energy sources have to be used up slowly.
20:19:56 <ihope> If this universe weren't like that, everything would undergo a tremendous nuclear explosion and turn into iron or something.
20:20:53 <oklopol> we could have "organism" defined in the beginning of the simulation, but nothing resembling evolution; basically that would mean creating absolutely random thingies, and hope they'd start reproducing slow enough not to die because of lack of energy, but fast enough to take over the world
20:21:25 <oklopol> bsmntbombdood: move to finland, and i'll take you to the mountains
20:21:27 <ihope> Ideally, the numbers would swiftly go toward optimum.
20:22:04 <oklopol> hmm... i guess we could use evolution to create evolution :P
20:22:23 <bsmntbombdood> how feasable would it be for someone who only speaks english to travel alone?
20:22:50 <oklopol> that wouldn't really be cheating, just making finding a reproducing creature faster
20:23:03 <oklopol> bsmntbombdood: in findland?
20:23:55 <oklopol> it's hard to find a finn without enough english skills to be able to have a casual conversation
20:24:23 <oklopol> in france of germany... uh, learn french and german
20:25:04 <oklopol> not casual... that's not the word i'm looking for, i mean, pretty much everyone has a basic understanding of english
20:25:32 <oklopol> at least that's my experience, i do tend to overestimate people's skills
20:26:02 <bsmntbombdood> where is it possible to go without knowing another language?
20:27:01 <oklopol> i'd say scandinavia, not france and germany, and i don't really know about the others.
20:27:22 <bsmntbombdood> of course england, but who wants to go to england?
20:28:35 <oklopol> well, actually, i think you can get along pretty much anywhere
20:29:17 <oklopol> except france, according to what i've heard, which of course must be true, almost no one knows any english there
20:29:20 <bsmntbombdood> i'm semiseriously thinking about traveling in europe this summer with some people from school
20:29:21 <BoredCollegeGuy> I lived in europe for a while. about 70-80% of the population I encountered understood english well enough for most things.
20:33:18 <oklopol> i haven't met that many germans, was more concentrated on the fact i was allowed to buy beer
20:34:03 <bsmntbombdood> oklopol: you probably speak like 6 languages, right?
20:34:09 <oklopol> and the chicks we stayed with may have been bad specimens, since i could easily correct their one of their's german test
20:34:17 <oklopol> and my german skills are average.
20:34:26 <oklopol> bsmntbombdood: sorry, still just 4 ;)
20:35:11 <oklopol> i was gonna learn lojban by christmas, but 1. you may not consider it a language 2. i'm pretty sure i'm gonna fail.
20:35:30 <jix> oklopol: in france people now english and other languages if you try to speak french but fail
20:35:33 <bsmntbombdood> i recently learned my grampa speaks like 6 languages and i was O.o
20:35:38 <jix> but if you don't even try they just speak french
20:35:40 <oklopol> since i've stopped actively learning it
20:36:19 <ihope> Learning a language in a month, eh? When did you make this plan to learn it by Christmas?
20:36:44 <ihope> I take it you're no Daniel Tammet at learning languages.
20:37:42 <oklopol> i made it at the end of the summer; learning it in a month would be easy if i didn't have irc, school and band practise like 4 days a week.
20:40:39 <oklopol> hmm, icelandic in a week? if i could do that, i'd learned every major language already
20:48:05 <ihope> With all this speak of learning Lojban in a month, why is Spanish a four-year program at my high school? :-P
20:49:06 <ihope> Well, Langton's loops are certainly a realization of a blueprint replicator, but I don't think many would argue that they're intelligent.
20:50:00 <oklopol> because 1. most people don't have a memorization system, and no such thing is taught at school; learning by example is slow 2. people study a few hours a feek
20:50:47 <oklopol> there are 24 hours a day, and that talk about only 4 hours of learning per day being possible i declare utter bullshit without any justification.
20:51:09 <ihope> Memorization system?
20:54:02 <GregorR> Yeah. The kind you plug into a computer and/or your brain.
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20:55:18 <oklopol> flash cards are an external system, that can help the learning process, but you actually need to know how to efficiently peggify every bit of new information internally, to actually be able to learn words quickly
20:55:31 <oklopol> peggify == create a memory peg you won't easily forget.
20:55:46 <GregorR> Please teach us, o master.
20:56:19 <oklopol> i'd gladly do that, if i'd succeeded in this myself.
20:57:08 <oklopol> i know some of the systems used for memorization, but i haven't really tested them much
20:57:41 <oklopol> some require a lot of work to get to work.
20:58:35 <oklopol> i did learn a card deck memorization technique to some extent, was able to learn 20 cards in order in about 4 minutes
20:59:19 <oklopol> unfortunately i get very paranoid when memorizing, since if i hate it when i fail; it's very displeasing at first...
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21:00:10 <GregorR> Irony (n) i-ro-ny: This conversation.
21:00:52 <GregorR> How many times did you have to correct your statement that you hate it /when/ you fail? ^^
21:01:09 <GregorR> I would have to say you /fail/ed to get it right in the first place :P
21:01:40 <oklopol> i meant when my memory fails, but i guess you have a point
21:02:26 <oklopol> i don't really care if i fail at typing
21:02:29 <GregorR> Joke (n) jo-ke: Something which oklopol will ruin through overexamination.
21:02:43 <oklopol> yes, this is usually intentional
21:03:14 <oklopol> and even though i always do that, and often show no signs of it, i never get it when others do it.
21:03:39 <oklopol> I GUESS YOU GOTTA BE A SWAN TO KNOW A SWAN
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